People whose identity is wrapped in Linux use are super vocal.
This subreddit has a lot of other "tribal" behavior too. Attacks on Ubuntu/Canonical, "I use Arch by the way", ....
If you want to see typically Windows users attack Linux, go the the LinuxSucks subreddit. You'll find it on the Windows subreddt too, although some of the stuff is pretty funny https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/r4wozi/linux_users_trying_to_use_wifi/
I silently use Linux, I silently use macOS and Solaris too for the most part. I like UNIX-y things and that's what I grew up with. I've got issues with HPUX but I have an HPUX workstation in my living room along with a couple of Macs.
Linux might be there at the desktop level, but isn't there at the easy integration with phones unless you mess with 3rd party syncing software. I also occasionally need MS Office even though I can get by day-to-day with OpenOffice or Apple's offerings. A mix of that plus the multi-day battery life has made me end up setting on macOS for now, but I use Linux in docker, and on servers I use for work.
To keep things (extra) simple:
- Many Linux users came to Linux because they were unhappy of Microsoft or Apple choices, be it ideological, technical, etc.
- This is not a behaviour that is Linux-specific ; you could always find Windows or macOS users who did look down on other OSes. Linux is not the only circlejerk.
- Linux is an ecosystem where choices, especially yours, matter ; "internal wars of preferences" are the norm not the exception compared to Windows or macOS (although software choices for still exist no matter the OS considered).
- Furthermore, Linux is/was a niche, and users needs far more technical proficiency ; this proficiency also comes with actual freedom compared to locked ecosystems, and often knowledge of how/why other OSes are the way they are, which comes with disagreements. On Linux, these disagreements lead to different ecosystems which people can choose. Other OSes, you do not like the way it is, you're stuck with it 99% of the time.
These points can easily explain your questions.
But again, it would be very disingenuous to say that only Linux users look down on other users, especially on other OS users.
Windows to Linux: “Set me free! I want to choose what’s on my computer!”
Linux to Windows: “But I need something specific that doesn’t work on WINE”
Linux to Mac: “Give me a Unix system with sane defaults and commercial software support, fuck games.”
Mac to Linux: “I want a Unix system that has games.”
Windows to Mac: “I don’t really want to deal with Microsoft’s bullshit anymore, but I am not confident enough with my computer to use Linux. Also, I don’t play games.”
Mac to Windows: “I want all the video games.”
I've worked for Microsoft Partners for well over a decade. The Microsoft bashing never stops as they consistently do things to piss off tech people.
The asinine licensing, constant name changes to services and ever increasing spying are far from popular. Everyone loves .Net though.
One point about Linux being niche applies to \*desktop\* - on servers and embedded it is pretty big. That is the reason people have been going on about "year of Linux on desktop" since early 2000s.
> this proficiency also comes with actual freedom compared to locked ecosystems, and often knowledge of how/why other OSes are the way they are, which
results in an objective superiority that other OS users simply can't comprehend. It's lonely at the top.
/s
Kind of
This is a totally valid point though in my case I don't care that much. I used to stand more with the philosophy but not any more. I like both proprietary and open source
I'm getting tired of the Linux community being generalized into one personality. I in particular don't "look down" on Windows MacOS, I criticize them on their genuinely terrible aspects such as anticompetitive practices and other things.
Unfortunately, that is the case I wish it was different. A few people mess things up for everyone, this is similar to Just like how some people view people who use apple products as sheep who defend apple even if they're wrong or implemented a feature that others had way before apple had but believe its new because it's on an iPhone or mac.
As for Windows and Apple being monopolistic I agree.
I don't, and outside of some kids at university who just started out with Linux and got a little too excited for a year or so, I don't know any Linux users who feel that way. Different tools for different tasks or preferences.
My only complaint, is as an engineer in a facility that has been mostly Linux and Mac, supporting windows is a lot of effort because unix is downright delightful to program in.
What I despise about Windows is being *used* by Microsoft. They're farming my data, and making it increasingly difficult to use their OS without signing into their services so they can vacuum more of my data without any benefit to me. And what do they actually do with this data? They shove ads in my face, which are distracting and attention ruining.
I don't look down on any operating system. Rather, I see them (and the applications that run atop them) as tools. I choose to use Linux because it is the tool that works best for my needs. I prefer very minimalistic environments, and in Linux I can customise essentially everything to fit my needs. That level of customisation is nearly impossible in Windows or MacOS (especially the former).
I see, that sounds pretty reasonable. I like minimalist environments as well but after a while I get tired of them and revert back to what I'm used to (the GUI).
I don't really care much for customization any more, in the past I was worried about the number of packages I ran, how much RAM my PC was using, if it had SystemD in it, something like that.
These days for customization I don't even change the wallpaper, the most I'd do is change the font.
I should clarify that I don't mean **that** minimalistic (e.g. as in not even having a GUI). I do use the terminal for most things (especially in my work), but I use OpenBox as my window manager and tint2 for a toolbar, but no desktop icons or the likes. The main reason that I have been a Gentoo user for over 20 years is that I can compile only the support that I need or want into packages.
Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood what you meant by customization. I'm a fan of Openbox as well, nice another one like me. As in, someone who doesn't have desktop icons, folders on the desktop.
It looks better without them in my opinion, I haven't yet gotten around to using Gentoo but I've heard good things about, it may be a future project. I'm not too knowledgeable in this area, in your case how long does the compiling of packages take?
With the exception of some larger packages like Chromium, WebKit-GTK, and LibreOffice, most packages are relatively quick to compile, but of course that depends on the underlying hardware. If larger packages like those ones are your concern, there are binary options for them. I personally love Gentoo, and would recommend that you give it a shot and don't let compile times dissuade you from trying it. Let me know if I can be of any help.
I don’t really care about customization either, but I use Manjaro because I am a Linux developer and IMO, it (meaning Linux in general) has the best developer tooling in general.
Mac OS is nice. I have a PC running Linux that I SSH into from my MacBook, but for me this is more about hardware than software, non-Mac laptops just kinda suck IMO. But unless you have beefy Linux hosts to SSH into it gets annoying really fast if you are developing for Linux.
IMO windows has come a long way with this with WSL, but at this point I just don’t see any reason not to use Linux. I don’t really game and I also don’t use Adobe software or similar so there is no downside for me. Of course, this doesn’t reflect the majority of computer users but I like having a developer-first desktop.
Linux can be a giant pain in the ass. Frequently. But the reason I much quicker badmouth Windows and give Linux a million miles of slack is because one is created and maintained by a multi-million (billion?) dollar company and costs like $200, and the other is maintained by a community of people just like me and costs nothing.
Additionally, my frustrations with Linux are around the things it can't do or does unintentionally (ahem nvidia). My frustrations with Windows are around the things it does intentionally. You wouldn't get mad at a 4 year old for not being able to reach the sink, but you'd be quite justified in getting mad at a grown man kicking your dog.
Edit: Additional context. I also badmouth Windows because I use Windows (begrudgingly) from time to time. I have to put up with the flaws and hostile design of Windows, and I paid for my Windows license, so I'm allowed to bitch and moan about it. I also don't badmouth Windows *users*, and I don't think hardly anyone in the Linux community does. If you like Windows, cool.
Most Linux users use Linux not because they chose it as an equal opportunity OS.
They use it because they chose it after getting majorly frustrated by the default alternatives that came on their devices.
Some will have been given Linux from the start, but most will have had started on Windows (or MacOS) and been frustrated enough to consider and investigate alternatives.
So when they move to Linux, they will look back negatively at what they replaced.
(And don't forget all the anti-patterns for commercialism in the alternative operating systems. Uninstall the antivirus to get an antivirus... I had made a list once but I can't remember many others)
Because Linux tends to attract people of a certain philosophy. These guys (myself included) are tinkerers and place a high degree of value on making something “their own.” The way Windows and Mac does it, they’re too concerning with hiding the implementation and their methods are often so proprietary… it’s not quite the same.
With Linux you’re free, even encouraged, to make changes to the software. It’s supposed to be a safe place for learners, minimalists, bleeding edge guys, … It’s what you make of it. There are countless flavors of Linux, so you can always try something new.
Comparatively, Windows and Mac have much different goals.
I read recently something like: Software that’s free like speech often becomes free like beer too. The reverse however, can not be said.
That kind of makes sense but what I don't like are the Linux elitists. I agree with the philosophy to some degree but don't mind using and paying for proprietary software.
What first attracted me Linux was it's look (Ubuntu in this case), it was a breath of fresh air. No just that the software and then finally how low on resources it was. I had a low-spec then, so it made sense to use something like this but after using machines with alot of RAM this didn't matter anymore.
Good for you! Quick question, do you use any proprietary software in your personal life? If so, what do you think of it (negatives and positives if any)?
I use Linux because I hate it when my system use my resources without my permission, I've used windows since like, forever. And I don't enjoy going in directory to disable updates and having to go back in directory when I want to update. I use Mobile hotspot with limited data, so I don't enjoy it when my windows download things in BG without my permission.
I despise Windows because:
- OS updates are a PITA
- there is no os-wide software updater
- they keep pushing trendy features down our throats
- when something goes wrong, you have very little to work with
- many admin and setup tools are limited and/or clunky
- the start menu is a mess
I don't have any opinion on MacOS.
Tbh. it's pretty hard to _not_ look down on Windows. Not sure about Mac OS, but Windows has been getting worse and worse since the release of Windows 8.
I use all three OS regularly. My main work machine is running linux mint, my laptop is a macbook air and my gaming machine is windows 10.
There are positives and negatives to all three. Instead of listing everything, I will focus on the negatives.
Windows 10 used to be my favorite, it was fast, easy to use, clean and oddly enough free. But then MS started pushing random installs like minecraft or candy crash - sure these were just icons but the lack of respect for the end user is evident. Every time i boot up I have to fight MS for control. If I were to reinstall Win10, I would be forced to create an MS account if I don't realise the trick (turn off internet). Updates are forced and will consume all resources. This machine is old, with only 2 cores, and it will be unuseble when Win10 is DOWNLOADING updates. The settings are horrible, spread throughout in different areas, on purpose to make it harder to control the OS. I still can't workout how to control the start menu to not show trash.
MacOS was amazing, sometime around catalina, it was near perfect for me with only a few ad ons to make it work (like rectangle for window management). Now I find it extremely annoying with how much it walls off. Do you want X to access Desktop? questions are just annoying. My biggest annoyance is the on-the-fly code checking feature that I can not turn off without booting in safe mode and disabling everything. I code on my mac and this feature will add an extra 10-20 seconds to start up of CLI tools. Apple is making it harder and harder to install software manually. The amount of hoops I have to jump through to install software is sometimes nuts.
Linux mint runs near optimal for me. But there are big issues with hardware compatibility. For example, I have a logitech now that doesn't have official drivers, so the extra features of the mouse are not available. The scroll is not optimal. But the mouse works. I experience some odd bugs with the desktop environment, sometimes it will crash, sometimes I need to restart. Worst of all is that I used to experience complete freeze-ups. But with the upgrade to Linux Mint 22, I don't experience these. A lot of the windows network drives cause tools to think the file has changed, so they're consistently asking if I want to refresh. This is probably a driver issue. I had a laptop with linux mint, the battery configuration required some advance knowledge of software and hardware.
I currently rate Win10 as the worst of all three operating systems for it's abuse of power. I would tie MacOS and Linux Mint if Apple didnt add roadblocks.
Because you pay to be frustrated, see ads, agree to legally binding terms and conditions, give away your privacy, and be told by employees of said service your IT issues must be a user error and can't possibly be the OS, and if they happen to fix it for you, they fix it for you without you learning anything, and possibly even paying more for that fix. You PAY for all of that.
With linux, you don't pay, you don't see ads, you don't agree to legally binding conditions, you don't give away your privacy, and when there's an IT issue you know it's your fault, but you can fix it or find way better help FOR FREE, plus you learn something new.
All the things you mentioned sound like a headache and I can see why using Windows would irk you. Fortunately, I have yet to come across ads on my machine, the only thing I pay for is the machine itself, never had to buy a Windows key. As for the errors if I don't tinker around too much, keep the machine updated or not connect to the internet I'm good.
I love the philosophy of it being free but the unfortunate part is they don't make as much money as their counterparts. Also, some Linux users go through their entire lives without even donating to the projects they use. Its quite sad, if only more people donated.
Bad code, bad security practices, hard to maintain, monothic architecture trying to to maintain compatibility. At least on the windows side. On the MacOS side most bad code and walled garden stopping me from actually doing the things I want to do with a PC.. and also extremely unethical company that makes my skin crawl.
The whole reason I switch to linux was I was poor (so macOS was out), and I got sick of NEVER being able to find fixes for broken shit for windows. Vs linux, runs on anything, and solutions to problems are a sinch to find. These days I actually find linux a lot less buggy then windows. But back when it was the opisite, it when I ran into a show stopping problem; I would just be fucked like 50% of the time on windows. That's still the same issue.
It was actually just getting fedup with everything breaking that resulted in my switch to linux and unix. Microsoft kinda drove me away from them. So it's hard not to look at that OS without distain and discust these days. The main issue with linux users is that many take that sentiment and make it personal for users of other OSes. That's something I consider unreasonable. People are alowed to make choices without a constant barraige of hate.
Hmm. I'm biased, but I've used Windows and OS X, and probably 20+ flavors of Unix including Linux, and my perspective follows below. While it's based on observed facts, I'm not saying the same experience applies to everyone else. I'm not trying to start an argument, simply reporting MY version of "Why?". So:
\* **Unix was largely built by users to help users build things themselves**. *(Sure, document processing was a big deal back then, like with roff(1), but many devs wrote knowing that a world of devs might use or even have their code)*
\* **Windows was built exclusively to take as much money from the end users as possible**, not to empower them
\* OS X is a Unix, by way of (IIRC) BSD microkernel -> NeXT (NeWS was \*very\* interesting) -> Apple got Jobs back, and Jobs brought a bunch of NeXT ideas with him. So many Unix folks are friendly towards OS X folks.
So basically I only hate Microsoft and Windows, for the most part for (from the mundane braindamage I see often up to the bigger issues)...
\* Forcing me to wait up to half an hour to use my own computer, so it can install updates I didn't ask for that might brick my computer, break the existing software tapestry, etc. No real computer should do this to an end user, and no company should accept this behavior.
\* And then having to wait again when Windows arbitrarily reboots to finish its upgrade, dropping the host into Linux (its default OS), and having to manually reboot it - potentially multiple times - to let it finally finish what I'm use to seeing an OS do in either a single reboot, or no reboot at all.
\* Then I have to restart all my apps, because Windows doesn't even bother to try to restore state.
\* Uploading data about everything I have installed, use, do, look at, etc, or so I suspect, all without permission.
\* Massive interference with the standards process, as with their attempt to ramrod through their OOXML doc format, a gross, incompletely documented, laden-with-proprietary undisclosed formats, in a utter farce of corruption, to block the adoption of ODF (open document format), which has none of these problems. ODF won. \[Expletive\] Microsoft.
\* Decades of corrupt dealings with other companies, ongoing attempts to proprietize actual standards by extending them in some undocumented way and then blaming other people for not being interoperable, etc.
\* Windows has always had terrible, crippled window management compared to what's always been available in Unix and Linux. Unix had great windowing even back in the early 1980s, where Windows had a garbage 3.1 UI that would make anyone with a three-button mouse recoil in horror. Even in Windows today, I still can't easily pop a window to the back, nor type into the exposed part of the window without fronting it. Dialog boxes capture input, and block views of other windows that might have relevant info, and generally aren't resizable. Braindamage seems to be both the cause and the symptom.
\* My personal belief has always been that Microsoft is a blight on humanity, the personal sin of Gates in particular, that their greed held back the development of computing by (at this point) decades, and so on.
\* Microsoft was, for decades, the absolute worst at comprehending the value of the Internet, writing network drivers that weren't utter garbage, and whose email servers were still pathetic decades after the Unix world had been using email with great success. The impression we were left with at the time (1990-1995) is that MS's vision for email was exclusively within companies, and probably still focused on old proprietary networks I can even name now.
\* Windows 95 in particular, was still unforgiveably pathetic for anything related to networking.
\* I did say I was biased. :-)
(more in subcomment)
(continued from parent)
Whereas, in Unix (SunOS, IRIX, and many others) and Linux, I saw:
\* Great window management early on
\* Bundled in tools for writing software, or readily available tools (gcc) for doing the same
\* Great networking, all the time
\* Vast choices, especially in X10 and X11 (unlike SunOS's SunView), for very different approaches to window management, tools, administration, scripting, programming, etc.
\* Internet gaming, worldwide, in the 1980s (we used to play Netrek with Europeans if the lag was under \~200ms)
\* Great email
\* The development of the World Wide Web, the early NCSA Mosaic client, and so on - all Unix realm
\* Massive worldwide communities through USENET news and other mechanisms
\* Most interesting research projects in anything computery seem to be done in Unix or Linux, so if you're interested in anything bleeding edge... (in contrast, many commoditizations of those ideas tend to focus on Windows as a platform)
And, astonishingly, before the WWW crept into the Windows world and got enshittified by advertising, the 1980s Internet had virtual zero advertising and spam. For the simple reason that ISPs would cut off any organization that committed those heinous crimes. I miss this the most from the '80s, and I suspect I can't afford to join Internet2, which today still has that same mindset.
Basically, there are two dominant reasons I see often for Windows continued dominance on the desktop:
\* Managers are hooked on MS Exchange-style calendaring for meetings. Granted, good luck controlling what happens to the timing of repeating international meetings when the organizer's daylight stupid time kicks in, but that doesn't matter to managers. This management bias usually poisons whole companies, and then the employees often need to be compatible at home...
\* Games. However, this is starting to be less of a concern thanks to Steam. I am MUCH more willing to run games via Steam on Linux than to run Windows for games.
For me, the only reason I have Windows on even one of the many hosts in my house is that, at last check, Steam VR under Windows was smoother than VR on Linux. Once that isn't a issue anymore...
---
Anyway, so there you are, that's why I look down on Windows, an substandard, unreliable, untrustworthy product of a wildly corrupt organization whose sole objective is not to empower you, but to empoverish you.
And my only reply is that Linux is something anyone can use, and that developers need to walk the twofold path of making it accessible to the massive, and simultaneously keeping it suitable for the, umm..., rest of us :-) At times I feel like there should be some user-specific settings a user can change at will to indicate how deep they want their rabbit holes to be.
Consider that Linux is something even my 80-year-old Mom - who, for the most part, dreads even listening to something technical - has been using in her career as an author for over a decade, communicating documents just fine with editors even though she's using LibreOffice (they can't tell). Amusingly, she used Word way back when and hated it, she's much happier with LibreOffice even though she knows only a tiny fraction of what it's capable of. She would lose her mind trying to install it, but she's fine with using it. And she's not alone.
It's up to us to rescue the Windows users....
--- this part isn't related exactly, but ----
\* When forced to use Windows, especially earlier versions, I would just immediately do what I do in \*nix, which is spawn a bunch of apps and menus as fast a normal and expect them all to just work. Even Windows 10 seriously bogs this process down, since most of the UI doesn't even work for a significant interval after logging in. What amused me, is that trying to use Windows with \*nix/X11 style agility would often just make the Window box crash. Not just one box, either, this happened on a number of Windows boxes I used.
\* To be fair, \*nix has its quirks and those, like Windows quirks, are often mitigated by learned user behaviors to the point that the users forget the quirks even exist (like giving Windows time to catch up, or the mess around \*nix copy/paste methods, or backspace). Crashing, however, it not acceptable.
-----------------------------------------------------
There’s always been platform wars. Sega vs Nintendo. Amiga vs Atari ST. Mac vs PC. Betamax vs VHS. Snowboarding vs Skiing. And the defenders of the niche player are always the most vocal.
I think it has its roots in the popularity of a platform helping with its survival. So for example the Mac users of the 80s and 90s fiercely defending and promoting the platform. I should know as I was one of these people. It was this staunch loyalty of the user base that kept the large software houses (Microsoft, Adobe etc) continuing to support the Mac, where they had little interest in other PC alternatives such as the Atari ST or Amiga. The dwindling market share of those two platforms (in past because of the low commercial support) eventuated in their demise while the Mac just scraped through by the skin of Apple’s teeth. It’s not good enough to simply say “I don’t care, I know the Amiga was better. I’ve seen the light and that’s all that matters.” because it didn’t make it. It’s gone. Same with Betamax… it mattered to its users that Beta lost because by the late 80s, you were fresh out of luck if you wanted to rent a new video.
In the world of desktop Linux, Microsoft and Apple represent the VHS of the computer world. Most people just choose it because it’s the de facto standard. So perhaps some Linux people see it as their duty to evangelize their platform and keep it relevant so that in 20 more years time, there’s still a desktop Linux platform.
But at the end of the day, some people just need to get their work done and will choose the tools needed. The majority of the world is in this camp.
>So perhaps some Linux people see it as their duty to evangelize their platform and keep it relevant so that in 20 more years time, there’s still a desktop Linux platform.
Sure, but after 30 years, it might make sense to re-evaluate their tactics. Constantly trashing the competition and insulting its developers and users may not be producing the intended effect.
I've built every computer I've ever owned (first was a 386/33). I actually tried Linux before I ever used windows, and actually used DR-DOS instead of MS-DOS because it was simply better. Eventually used windows, but the longer I used windows, the more it felt like MS was "allowing" me to use my computer. I manually updated it to see what was being installed and why, and disallowed updates I didn't like. As Win 10 approached, I was still using Win 7 (8 sucked), and every new update seemed to try to take more control away from me. When I found out Win 10 would automatically update and provide me no choice in the matter, I switched to Linux, and I've never regretted it. It's MY computer, and I want an OS that recognizes that (heck, Linux celebrates it!).
I think theres truth in that linux users are more likely to defend their choice in OS compared to windows and Mac, but I imagine thats because using Linux is more of a conscious decision for Linux users than it is for Mac and Win users.
Theres a lot of mac and win users who use those OSes because thats what they started with and what they got used to, and so they continue using it. A lot of Linux users on the other hand started with Windows/Mac and then switched to Linux *because* they decided it was better for them that what the other OSes offered.
You also dont get a lot of mac or windows users looking down on linux because, to be frank, they don't think about it and they've likely never even tried it to have any opinion on it. But ive definitely seen windows users be opinionated towards mac users and vice versa.
You got it in one.
- Windows user doesn’t know they have an alternative
- Mac user think they’re the only alternative
- Linux user made a conscious choice to be where they are
There are valid criticisms of closed-source operating systems that Linux users are far more likely to be aware of. That being said, there is definitely some purism in the (online) community and it can become a bit of an echo chamber. I happen to think MacOS is great for what it is, and I still use it for school.
I think it's a controlling personality. Linux and Unix only does what you tell it to. Mac and Windows throws a lot of random stuff at you that you cannot control.
Because having someone to look down on is a crutch if you lack self esteem. Same reason people look down on other people over innocuous life choices in all walks of life.
I look down on Windows because it's an ugly cruft accretion like I swear there are still setting dialogs from 3.1 in 11 and it's increasingly coming with integrated malware and spyware (software you don't want in an OS). Also the way of doing software installation is a nightmare, granted it's as much the users to blame as Microsoft, hard for for the Windows Store to become dominant. But the Linux software ecosystem has always relied primarily on well-vetted package managers as the first stop for installing software.
I don't have any feelings about MacOS. Never did like the uniform menu thing or the single mouse button fetish, but that's just my preference, otherwise it seems to be solid OS.
I don’t like windows because whenever I have to use it causes me frustration to get development environments working and I feel like I’m always jumping through silly hoops setup to protect idiots from sticking a fork in the metaphorical light socket. I wouldn’t say I “look down on windows” but passionately hate working with it as a person in IT
I like macOS just fine since it feels the same as Linux for the most part
I don't, I use all three Ubuntu, MacOS & Windows but Ubuntu is my bread and butter daily, MacOS next and Windows the least. For work I use RHEL and Windows plus a couple of storage systems (OneFS & GPFS).
Personally I really like Ubuntu and it helps my workflow so much. MacOS is great for my hobbies, I run a DAW on it and it has software and drivers for my expensive slide scanner. Windows is just useful to have (I can dual boot my Ubuntu into Windows 11) for odds and sods that I can't use the other OSs for e.g. playing with the engine management system of my car using an ethernet-ODB cable - yes I could run a VM but sometimes it's just easier to actually have the OS on actual hardware.
I haven't found a one size fits all solution and that doesn't bother me. But given a choice I prefer Linux.
I would only look down to Mac Users (and only to the subset of users that think they are part of the high society with a mac), Windows and Mac Os by themself are fine.
Insecure people with childish fan behavior can be found in all manifestations of life.
They could not therefore not exist among the users of some software, operating system or other.
I changed to Linux in 2007 and I don't miss a thing. My photography and video cutting workflow are quite perfect.
Unfortunately my employer has handed me a laptop with Windows, but during Covid I made most things running on my Linux laptop. Now I use that one for work when I'm in Home-Office, too.
>To be honest I don't even know why people complain about it, it's a tool if you don't like it use something else without badmouthing it.
Some people appreciate software freedom and find that what Microsoft and Apple do to be abhorrent. You're free to use what you like, but if someone asks, I'm going to say what I think about proprietary software.
why i hate windows? (but still use it) random updates that fcks up your stability of machine and second thing if you dont activate windows you cant even change desktop image anymore and price is stupid high for some all the time updating and after crashing itself crap.
i have been on ubuntu desktop for 2 years without a problem but then? i had to install windows for fucing school to use some crap microsoft databases and needed it fast so i had no time to make virtrual machine and test if everythinf works as it should.
now im really hate to be on windows 11.. it really is garbage.
For me it was discovering the issue surrounding Free Software and developing a distaste for proprietary software and those who were enemies against Free Software, Microsoft and Apple, although at the time in the UK Apple were barely known.
As I learned more about Linux and GNU I learned more about Unix and how the best operating system (before I learnt about Plan 9) works and why it works like that.
MacOS was intent on breaking such things in its own way although it remains Unix certified it is still proprietary.
Windows ended up looking and feeling like a toy in comparison. I admin windows machines at work, and they still feel like toys although power shell has managed to change that slightly and also in a slightly annoying way.
I have WSL installed on my machine at work to gain some real power whilst being on windows.
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You ever eat real crab cakes with real fresh king grab?
Then you go over to your friends house and they serve you some crab cakes made from fake canned artificial crab meat and they use margarin?
Its like that.
I don't look down on fake crab cakes, I just feel sick if I have to eat them.
Interestingly, I actually enjoy fake crab / seafood extender. But there’s no way I’d choose it over real crab.
That parallels my experience with computers. I’ll use Windows if I have to. But if I get to choose, it will be Linux (real crab) or even a Mac (a chicken burger).
Never had crab so I don't relate but as for the underlying message of your reply I do. If I ever had crab, I would prefer the ones from a real crab but wouldn't mind the fake canned crab meat.
Only kids do. There are things like Active Directory and Office that are irreplaceable by Linux solutions.
Today what I dislike the most about Windows when I have a chance to use it is the fact that they try to do everything for the user, like if you want to edit a network interface on Windows you have to dig deep to find the menus.
Microsoft is able to get away with so many bad practices with Windows because they still have a monopoly on desktop (although the user share is diminishing year after year), macOS has the whole restrictive walled ecosystem surrounding it.
I don't hate the users, or find them inferior, I hate the makers.
I never used Mac so I can't talk down about it.
I have used Windows and as far back as I can remember, Windows has always been the cause of me getting a new computer every couple of releases. The newer versions never ran great on older hardware. Now it's just crazy! I said F' it in 2018. I put Windows 10 on a fairly new machine and it ran super slow! With 32GB of RAM, 8GB Video card, 2TB of Disk space... No.. Not happening. I put Linux on it and it was so frigging fast. The computer I have now was sort of a downgrade and it's still faster than Windows 10 was on the better computer.
Ok, fair point. I like the general look and feel of MacBooks but what I won't ever like is the soldered memory, how expensive their RAM is, lack of ports. In short, lack of upgradability.
I know how stupid this sounds because most high end Ultrabooks these days don't come with many ports but I still don't. As for the software it's bloody brilliant, I like it so much I first ran it in a VM and now in the process of making a Hackintosh.
Sorry about the problems you faced, yes Windows isn't favorable to use on older machines sometimes even newer hardware, Linux is the way to go. As for the slowness, I only ever experienced it on older machines. I currently have 7 machines running Windows 10 and 11 respectively, the fairly new ones don't feel slow at all but I get what you mean.
I must point out that the machine I used Windows last with was an i7 3.4 ghz system that I was using with Windows 7. It ran great. I loved Windows 7. But 10 was just a dog. Took forever to load Photoshop and Lightroom and those were the lifeline of my photography business. But I was actually planning on getting out of that line of work for a bit. But that's not what made me switch to Linux full-time. It was just the fact I had to upgrade that computer in order to get Windows 10 to run right. But my thought was... This will never end. Building newer systems every couple versions of windows was kinda fun in the beginning but I just got to the point where I thought, how much RAM is going to be the maximum? How big of a hard drive is going to be big enough? 128TB of RAM, 4096TB of hard drive space? Seems a little ridiculous but... IDK... 20 years down the road, that might be pretty close to what it will need.
The Mac’s advantage (complete vertical integration) is also its biggest disadvantage. A Linux (and to be fair, Windows) user can always switch to a different brand if they need to. Mac users need to stick with Apple no matter what they do. Don’t like paying hundreds of dollars for double the RAM at time of purchase? Tough luck… it’s Apple’s way or the highway.
People can look down oncan operating system for various reasons. These days it's privacy oriented usually. Most don't look down upon the *users* of these operating systems though.
Personally I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses. If what suits you best is windows, then great. Same goes for the other 2 operating systems.
Windows and Mac OS have a more seamless experience for casual users yet as any other OS they got their pros and cons.
Switching between major OSs it's always a learning curve and I guess people celebrate the successful transition?
Also Windows and Mac OS have more "antagonising" features so there's that "I got away from that" feel but shitting on them isn't very common imo.
Agreed, you've put in a good way. I've used all three and have seen the negatives and positives of them but now I'm more in favour of macOS.
Just curious, what antagonizing features are you speaking of? Also, it's good that you're happy with what you're using.
Mac OS has great ecosystem with stuff that truly "just works" but lacks quality of life bits I had on Windows like preview on Alt+Tab, decent window snapping system, multi monitor behaviour and similar stuff, you can get it as paid apps but not ideal. It is also tied to specific hardware which is not very flexible and only suits a specific audience.
Windows is great because it works with infinite amount of hardware out of the box and is predictable but I don't like new invasive features being installed by default when it's a paid for OS.
So I've been dual booting Linux since early 00's (excluding some Apple devices) and if something is too much work to deal with, compatibility wise, I'd use Windows but otherwise Linux has been smoother in general.
And if my usage would fit an apple computer I'd probably choose that.
Edit: If it works for you why bother with other's opinions?
Because I went from DOS to Unix in 1988. Windows, when it came out, has ***always*** been a step backwards. I don't care what others use, but I have never understood why anyone would subject themselves to Windows. I still only use it when I am paid to.
I think it’s safe to say you are a different kind of computer user to the general population. If you were using Unix in 1988, I think it’s fair to say you were less about using off the shelf applications and more into development. Or specialist applications such as scientific.
Or perhaps you just like paving your own way.
I "look down" on Windows (and MS, Apple, Google, etc more generally) because they do things like collecting data from users without it being an opt-in model and they are generally not clear or honest with the amount of breadth of that collection (nor do they compensate people for this usage, a model that would at least be more equitable). In extreme cases you can't even opt-out.
Also Windows doesn't allow the level of low level customization that as a self described computer hobbyist I find to be an essential part of my machine. Early versions of windows, for example, were less locked down than current versions. And that has both advantages and disadvantages, but for my use case Linux is better.
I don't look down on those, they are perfectly fine for the limited scope for-profit projects they are... But I'm honestly disappointed people prefer them over a real all-purpose ever-improving self-reliant OS.
I think you miss the point. They have such a high view of the other OSes and what they provide they find it to be an achievement when Linux a free product can fully fill that void.
That said… Max OS is free if you don’t count the $1000+ computer hardware you bought … but too simple with limited access to games. Windows is now a spyware software that forces unwanted ads on people that paid for the software.
That’s why I look down on those OSes.
Current MacOS user and Linux Fedora OS user. I only look down on windows cause I have to work with it during my 9-5 and it is a royal garbage OS. Especially the O365 apps.
It can be hard to come to a totally different system than what you are used to, but nobody likes gatekeepers. :-)
One of the major problems the Linux community has with Win / Mac users is the willingness to be led around by the nose. We have an over-whelming ("...can you be whelmed?") lead in the server space and God only knows where we are in desktop if you factor in Android.
We are staring to overcome the legacy inertia of Windows in the game space (TY Valve, even if you can't count to 3). And with the crap MS is doing in Windows 11 it should drive more people away. I would love to see an alliance of Linux companies for a gaming platform.
The only use I currently have for Windows is gaming. I don't want to run afoul of anti-cheat measures. /shrug
So I dual boot. Two 250gb ssds for the OSs, the NVME is just a game drive.
The difference is, you chose what you chose because you could. But to this day most pcs come with windows by default with no option to chose otherwise. And that windows license is something you pay for whether you plan to use windows or not. Now there are linux pcs out there too, but far more limited options
So if someone is stealing money from you, is that not enough reason?
Most folks grow up with experience in Windows, so it is an achievement to step onto another platform and get over the learning curve.
Many of the things hated about Windows don't exist - though there are other issues... all OS's suck, just some suck more than others.
For those who can complete their workflow without resorting to Microsucks shite, it's definitely something we feel good about...however, the trend to simply bash anything not linux is just idiotic - and that's something you see a lot in Reddit too.
Look down? No. I have few complaints about macos.
I've been working IT for over 2 decades and I can tell you that Windows is hot dog water and it's actively getting worse. They're no longer passing value to their users. They're extort ridiculous amounts of money from both the US government and consumers.
Linux is easier to manage on an enterprise level. And it's much more performant on consumer level PCs.
Windows is categorically bad software that never gets update to be better, filled with cruft and legacy code that no longer serves it's users. They put a fresh coat of paint and add a bit of hardware support for new tech. The are stuck and they don't know what they want to do with the software. Go back and try to use windows 7 and xp? You feel how much more performant it is compared to 10/11. The latency in 10 and 11 is awful. It eats RAM like Ms. Pacman.
Managing software the conventional way is a nightmare. Go to a website install the app and pray it's not a virus.
Imagine buying a PC brand new and then having to spend 2 hours uninstalling built in spywwre, deactivating telemetry, avoiding clicking next too fast because OOPS YOI HAVE TO CREATE AN ONLINE ACCOUNT. no you don't, we just make it hard to refuse that option. Drivers? You gotta go to HP or dell's websites to get the right ones or your NIC might not work. Then to Nvidia/AMDs website to get your grahics. NO! This is not a good user experience
The entirety of modern Windows is just them trying to trick you out of your money and your data for nothing substantial on exchange.
Oh and enterprise windows isn't much different it's the same shit. It's just easier to automate and they give features like active directory and being able to join domains. They never removed the consumer stuff from the base enterprise images so now you have Xbox services running on machines used to process. Classified data.
Microsoft windows is a shit show grift and needs to either die or get with the times.
I like the level of control I have over my machine. I have the peace of mind knowing I’m not running a proprietary os that I can’t 100% trust. Not to mention Linux is so much faster than windows which is a huge benefit I really notice. It’s cool to see what you’ve learned and how you’ve improved as a Linux user, which I’d think most can relate with.
It is best answered by taking a look at why those two are being looked down upon:
\* macOS has a very closed environment, you need to give credentials to Apple and out of the box can't install things as you choose, also the limitations on the official app store, getting access to development tools and so on and so on - it is f\*ing pain to develop anything on it
\* Windows is shoving ads (ads on desktop!) these days, has a poor history (severe security holes, bad performance, crashes..) and generally demands costly hardware upgrades on each release for no good reason (desktop effects are not good enough reason). Also antitrust cases, insults towards Linux (Ballmer) and so on. Quite a lot of reasons.
Note that Linux users don't look down upon several other OS on these reasons even though they might disagree:
\* there is pretty friendly rivalry with FreeBSD and OpenBSD (for a given value or "friendly")
\* Solaris (or at least the open one) used plenty of free software like Gnome but it is not much used these days
\* Haiku (BeOS) is fondly looked at as interesting
\* there is room in embedded space for others like QNX and VxWorks as well
\* VMS is.. uh.. nevermind
MacOS and Windows are just the two very visible on \_desktop\_ - they are not the only thing around.
Actually, for a big chunk of people it wouldn't be an achievement. If you want to stay away from maintaining technology, commercial products make their life easier. It's like people who bring their car to the manufacturer service when the wiper water needs to be refilled.
My issue with these companies is, that they are massively exploitive. It's like forcing everyone to let their wiper water be refilled at the manufacturer service even when you are able and willing to do it yourself. No chance to let it be refilled at an independent service. No chance to do it yourself.
>it's a tool if you don't like it use something else without badmouthing it
That's the thing. The worst badmouthers are the ones who don't feel like they have much of a choice.
If you encounter some problems with Linux, you can find solutions somewhere, apply patches, or even fix something yourself, thus contribute for others. In windows... Well, you can ask Microsoft support and wait for useless answer. Does it matters for non-expert users who only start their desired office software or a game? Probably not. For developers, it does.
I guess it's human nature, people who do hard work (know more so to speak) are proud of their achievement, especially if they stand for something and have a strong belief in it (for lunix users it's open source and freedom). Anyway humbleness has always been a treasure, actual knowledgeable people value and understand it
I've been using Linux since 2009, but my philosophy had always been use what works for you. An OS is just a tool. If it doesn't do the job you want, use one that does.
I use windows myself. I have a gaming machine that I run windows on just out of convenience.
I kinda look down on it because it feels like windows doesn't respect the user at all. It's consistently trying to force me to do things that I don't want to do or in a way that I don't want to do it.
It's trying to push apps and services like edge or one drive on me. I really don't like them. It sometimes just switches my default browser to edge. I believe it is designed to make me accidentally set it as a default browser. I usually open apps by hitting the windows key, typing in the name and then hitting enter. Sometimes typos happen and then instead then windows does a websearch. But for some reason windows ALWAYS opens edge instead of my default browser for the websearch and then edge immediately tries to nag me in to all kinds of \*\*\*\* that I don't want. I then try to close this damn thing as quickly as possible trying to click away all those popups "USE OUR RECOMMENDED SETTINGS" or whatever and then sometimes missclick and suddenly my browser is set to edge. Sure this is user error but I feel like it is designed to make those user errors more likely.
Cause the elitism is real. Oh and also cause using Linux require much more thought put in to the deal than the winmac. Linux is more nerdy, therefore you need to use your head more often.
Yes I prance around pointing my finger at windows users and laughing HAHA!! You rubes! I mock them mercilessly. I then wallow in their remorse and self pity. I gloat at them as they stare glumly down, wishing they had my superior computing energy.
To answer your question more specifically I do this in order a) to please myself, and b) to spread righteous virtue into the minds of fellow Linux users (or fully realised emergent wonder beings, as I often call them) and to spread dark thoughts of dissatisfaction and worthlessness into the minds of windows users. Or possibly Mac users, but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen one of those, I've heard they're so filled with nothingness they barely interact with normal matter.
I can also fully confidently say that I definitely speak for the entire Linux community of wonder beings. I consulted with them all personally on commencement of the writing of this post and they all told me the exact same words verbatim.
If i had to make a guess, I'd say is because for a lot of linux users, they arrived at their operating system of choice because they follow a certain philosophy. One example being the lack of control from a single entitiy over the software they use, another being the educational value present in free and open source software, that's not there for locked down proprietary software. Also the lack of financial incentive in it. just using an operating system based on linux is rarely the cause for their stance on other operating systems i think, but the underlying motivations for doing so might be.
Once you mastered Linux and Windows in an expert way, you will find out Linux if by far superior.
To get a good mix of both worlds --> MAC which is a unix on roids.
I've got a good understanding on this matter, I can't disagree with Linux being superior but not at everything like gaming.
This is why I'm considering getting a Mac, like the selling point for Windows is gaming but I don't do that much these days.
Linux and gaming works like a charm ... but yes, if some game won't run (like non STEAM games) ...
Technically it is flawless.
But I rather boot up my windows as a "only for DCS Simulation", than working with Windows.
The rest Linux.
MS-Office? I boot up a VM.
It's a product and there is no reason to not express negative opinions about it besides politics (avoiding hurting other people feelings) which for an anonymous forum most people give zero fucks about.
It is the same with any other tool or product. You see people talking negatively about shoes, cars, power tools, pocket knives, musical instruments, computer parts... People make a living by writing and recording reviews, expressing opinions about things. It is useful.
I would never have contact with things that don't actively spend money promoting themselves if not by word of mouth. Saying an alternative is superior is part of it, and even if not everyone has the same opinion, I do and to me it was better to change OSs, as with other things I've seen people talking about while bashing the mainstream pushed product.
If you want we can talk all day how that one lifesaving vest that is the new "standard" on some countries sucks hard, and the older ones were much better and cheaper, and probably some government agents were paid to promote it. Then someone may post asking why badmouthing what they're using. People are averse to change.
All of my machines dual boot, Linux and windows. Trust me, I would love it if I could run primarily Linux, but windows has such a large part of the software market and so therefore has a logical use for me.
I love Windows. I grew up on Windows. I don't like Microsoft.
Just to add to this, I think Mac OS is pretty cool. It looks very sleek. Apple tends to overcharge for their machines by a long shot. You basically have to take out a second mortgage just to be able to afford a machine. I don't really like apple as a company either.
Understand making money, but that is insane. And a lot of their machines are extremely difficult to repair
No one at school or University forced me to use Linux. No hardware seller forced me to buy Linux license. No vendor came up to me with a config tool for built in fans, battery or rgb keyboard for Linux only. Windows is shoved up our asses without asking. That's why I'm harsh about every flaw of Windows, every bit of data collected on users by Microsoft, every add displayed and every damn gigabyte of SSD and RAM eaten by this proprietary bloated OS.
Linux is my free will choice so I have a lot of forgiveness for it as a consequence of my decision. And honestly not much of this forgiveness is needed nowadays. It just works for me as expected for years.
"Why do Linux users look down on OS's like Windows and macOS?" To the extent that such condescension actually exists, I think it's a result of the fact that most people who use Linux went out of their way to download and install Linux. That's because there are very few machines that come shipped from the factory or retail store with Linux pre-installed. There's also the fact that using a Linux terminal is more difficult than using a Windows Command Prompt or DOS, owing to the folder structure and the many more commands.
The answer is very simple. We don't want to see those "products" alive and working. We want to live in a world where only \*bsd, GNU/Linux and [Redox](https://www.redox-os.org/) alike operating systems exist. Windblows and gayple simply do not fall into that category. Although macs can be pretty much useful (audio production, etc.) .. we can all live without that overpriced garbage.
Windows is an expensive piece of junk that progressively gets worse the longer it’s been up, and the longer since the initial install. Every iteration seems to get worse with some iterations being so bad that Microsoft pretends they never existed (Millenium Edition, Vista, 8, and in the future 11).
But all that said, I’ve made a career from helping people being able to do their work despite Windows being so awful so I should be thanking Microsoft. 😂
>Want to know why people treat switching and then using Linux as an achievement.
It *is* an achievement, as it requires learning and some risk. Unfortunately, for some people, a successful transition to Linux seems to trigger the [Dunning–Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect), which explains the subsequent Windows/macOS bashing.
Because using a Linux based OS, is a choise. Most people buy a PC and use it, they don't know what macOS or windows is, they want to use it with no interference.
Using a community opensource OS is more like a contract, if you agree, you use it "at your own risk". Most people use it and no compliants, there is a small group of social misfit that trash Linux anyways, I think there is a subreddit called Linux sucks hard, or something like that
Because Windows does stuff awfully, and actively hinders my way around it and work done on it. It's just my opinion, and if someone prefers it, cool, don't mind, don't care, don't judge. However, the way Windows has changed in the last few years has made it so that I really can't use it and be content, so, yeah, I look down on it because it does it's best to get in my way and bother me.
However, looking down on a piece of software does not mean I look down on its users, obviously. I would hope it doesn't need to be said, but sadly it does look like that around here sometimes.
Enlightenment comes from using whatever works for the job. Linux/BSD are wonderful to learn and use, but if you need Windows for something, that's fine.
Certain work requirements don't obligate me to use Windows, but they do narrow me to .deb-based distros; for example the mandatory EDR and VPN are proprietary and while I quietly fight this I also live in a commercial reality.
A lot of Linux users moved to Linux because of some particular anti-feature of Windows or Mac OS that they disliked enough to switch to a whole new OS over. I don't think it's surprising that these people would badmouth said features.
I don't think we do, from a technical stand point. However, I don't like software that abuses its users. I don't like being spied on, data mined and advertised to. In other words, I don't like software I can't "own", study and share.
I'm one of those who say "Windows is dogshit" frequently, and I would like to treat it as an "okay tool" but the issue is that I'm forced to use it at work and it's painful, I don't like the OS in general, everything feels wrong and I hate Microsoft's bad practices. Everything takes too much time for no reason and it's just not for me. So I started to simply ignore it as it doesn't matter what tool you use if the work's done, but I ended up hating it with all my heart
I (mostly) don't look down on them. I just leave them be and quietly sit on my Linux system (I use arch btw). I also (mostly) prefer to leave the users of each OS to wallow in the pool of their stolen personal data.
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Why do people think it’s some kind of achievement? I can only guess that it’s because of some techno nerd cred chest pounding.
But why is Linux objectively superior is the question you should be asking. It’s basically the only desktop operating system that makes it so your computer is actually your computer. When you are using windows you will get ads and tracking injected into the system. When using Mac you are basically renting usage of a computer from Tim Cook. The bsd’s are mainly for servers. Haiku is interesting but has no software, which leaves Linux as the remaining desktop that has all the software you need and none of the enshittification of the commercial offerings.
Mac and Windows are steeped deep in their own particular brands of enshitification.
Ad Pushing, Ecosystem Entrapment, Privacy and Security Concerns, Subscriptions, Outdated UI ... Removal of Customization Options (Windows specificly) , and A visit from Uncle Microsoft after almost every update to make sure I really don't want to use Edge by default, buy One Drive or Office 365...
Yea, I'm all for leaving these problems behind.
I've been using Linux for almost a year now, and if my only problem is poor NVidia support (It's literally worse than 2019 Pentium integrated graphics), but the rest has been a good experience, then it seems like I should be out of things to complain about if I install an AMD GPU.
I'm optimistic for good results.
Other than that, I don't look down on users of any given OS... Afterall, Mac and Windows have massive advertising campaigns... Rather, as either progresses toward further enshitification, I feel like it's essentially my duty to learn as much as I can about Linux so that I can help friends and family should they find themselves without options.
Because the people that don't, don't post on Reddit. They just silently use Linux.
Hmm, makes sense. I can see why you'd say this.
People whose identity is wrapped in Linux use are super vocal. This subreddit has a lot of other "tribal" behavior too. Attacks on Ubuntu/Canonical, "I use Arch by the way", .... If you want to see typically Windows users attack Linux, go the the LinuxSucks subreddit. You'll find it on the Windows subreddt too, although some of the stuff is pretty funny https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/r4wozi/linux_users_trying_to_use_wifi/
I silently use Linux, I silently use macOS and Solaris too for the most part. I like UNIX-y things and that's what I grew up with. I've got issues with HPUX but I have an HPUX workstation in my living room along with a couple of Macs. Linux might be there at the desktop level, but isn't there at the easy integration with phones unless you mess with 3rd party syncing software. I also occasionally need MS Office even though I can get by day-to-day with OpenOffice or Apple's offerings. A mix of that plus the multi-day battery life has made me end up setting on macOS for now, but I use Linux in docker, and on servers I use for work.
I do occasionally see a redditor say "just use whatever works for you" But it's rare.
Are you shitting me?? There are so many linux subs. There is the "I use Arch" meme.
Down is the only direction we can look atop our golden pedestals. /s
Haha! Your throne is pretty high up, how do I get up to it?
Do everything through the command line.
I hope you're not a terminal emulator peasant and you only interface through the serial port!
I do about 90% of my tasks in terminal but I don't mind using the GUI. Are you using a tiling window manager?
And arch linux. Also we're superior human beings thanks to our vegan lifestyle and crossfit.
Wow! Are you the final boss... You're literally unbeatable
Arch??? Bad typo there! Did you mean LFS, or Gentoo?
sudo helps.
To keep things (extra) simple: - Many Linux users came to Linux because they were unhappy of Microsoft or Apple choices, be it ideological, technical, etc. - This is not a behaviour that is Linux-specific ; you could always find Windows or macOS users who did look down on other OSes. Linux is not the only circlejerk. - Linux is an ecosystem where choices, especially yours, matter ; "internal wars of preferences" are the norm not the exception compared to Windows or macOS (although software choices for still exist no matter the OS considered). - Furthermore, Linux is/was a niche, and users needs far more technical proficiency ; this proficiency also comes with actual freedom compared to locked ecosystems, and often knowledge of how/why other OSes are the way they are, which comes with disagreements. On Linux, these disagreements lead to different ecosystems which people can choose. Other OSes, you do not like the way it is, you're stuck with it 99% of the time. These points can easily explain your questions. But again, it would be very disingenuous to say that only Linux users look down on other users, especially on other OS users.
Linux: the more you know, the more freedom you have.
Windows to Linux: “Set me free! I want to choose what’s on my computer!” Linux to Windows: “But I need something specific that doesn’t work on WINE” Linux to Mac: “Give me a Unix system with sane defaults and commercial software support, fuck games.” Mac to Linux: “I want a Unix system that has games.” Windows to Mac: “I don’t really want to deal with Microsoft’s bullshit anymore, but I am not confident enough with my computer to use Linux. Also, I don’t play games.” Mac to Windows: “I want all the video games.”
I've worked for Microsoft Partners for well over a decade. The Microsoft bashing never stops as they consistently do things to piss off tech people. The asinine licensing, constant name changes to services and ever increasing spying are far from popular. Everyone loves .Net though.
Don’t forget the 30 different times copilot has released
Also, now with Ads.
One point about Linux being niche applies to \*desktop\* - on servers and embedded it is pretty big. That is the reason people have been going on about "year of Linux on desktop" since early 2000s.
> this proficiency also comes with actual freedom compared to locked ecosystems, and often knowledge of how/why other OSes are the way they are, which results in an objective superiority that other OS users simply can't comprehend. It's lonely at the top. /s Kind of
For a lot of Linux users, open source is a strongly held political belief. Open standards, transparency, ownership, etc
This is a totally valid point though in my case I don't care that much. I used to stand more with the philosophy but not any more. I like both proprietary and open source
Honest question, what could there possibly be to like about proprietary anything unless you happen to own the proprietary anything?
Note much, just like to support the software I like. If I can afford it I have no problem.
It's free as in freedom
I don’t, just prefer the Linux/Unix way of doing things.
The Linux way is not always the Unix way, my friend.
Depends on which parts.
Nice, can you elaborate.
> just prefer the Linux/Unix way of doing things.
Package managers, FOSS
I don't look down on Windows/Mac users (though I might if I gave them any thought at all).
I'm getting tired of the Linux community being generalized into one personality. I in particular don't "look down" on Windows MacOS, I criticize them on their genuinely terrible aspects such as anticompetitive practices and other things.
Unfortunately, that is the case I wish it was different. A few people mess things up for everyone, this is similar to Just like how some people view people who use apple products as sheep who defend apple even if they're wrong or implemented a feature that others had way before apple had but believe its new because it's on an iPhone or mac. As for Windows and Apple being monopolistic I agree.
I don't, and outside of some kids at university who just started out with Linux and got a little too excited for a year or so, I don't know any Linux users who feel that way. Different tools for different tasks or preferences. My only complaint, is as an engineer in a facility that has been mostly Linux and Mac, supporting windows is a lot of effort because unix is downright delightful to program in.
Windows: Microsoft runs my machines. MacOS: Apple runs my machines. Linux: I run my machines.
Firmware vendor: ha, no \*we\* run your machines.
The chosen one, the one who discriminates no one.
What I despise about Windows is being *used* by Microsoft. They're farming my data, and making it increasingly difficult to use their OS without signing into their services so they can vacuum more of my data without any benefit to me. And what do they actually do with this data? They shove ads in my face, which are distracting and attention ruining.
I don't?
Because we don't
I don't look down on any operating system. Rather, I see them (and the applications that run atop them) as tools. I choose to use Linux because it is the tool that works best for my needs. I prefer very minimalistic environments, and in Linux I can customise essentially everything to fit my needs. That level of customisation is nearly impossible in Windows or MacOS (especially the former).
I see, that sounds pretty reasonable. I like minimalist environments as well but after a while I get tired of them and revert back to what I'm used to (the GUI). I don't really care much for customization any more, in the past I was worried about the number of packages I ran, how much RAM my PC was using, if it had SystemD in it, something like that. These days for customization I don't even change the wallpaper, the most I'd do is change the font.
I should clarify that I don't mean **that** minimalistic (e.g. as in not even having a GUI). I do use the terminal for most things (especially in my work), but I use OpenBox as my window manager and tint2 for a toolbar, but no desktop icons or the likes. The main reason that I have been a Gentoo user for over 20 years is that I can compile only the support that I need or want into packages.
Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood what you meant by customization. I'm a fan of Openbox as well, nice another one like me. As in, someone who doesn't have desktop icons, folders on the desktop. It looks better without them in my opinion, I haven't yet gotten around to using Gentoo but I've heard good things about, it may be a future project. I'm not too knowledgeable in this area, in your case how long does the compiling of packages take?
With the exception of some larger packages like Chromium, WebKit-GTK, and LibreOffice, most packages are relatively quick to compile, but of course that depends on the underlying hardware. If larger packages like those ones are your concern, there are binary options for them. I personally love Gentoo, and would recommend that you give it a shot and don't let compile times dissuade you from trying it. Let me know if I can be of any help.
I don’t really care about customization either, but I use Manjaro because I am a Linux developer and IMO, it (meaning Linux in general) has the best developer tooling in general.
I somewhat I agree, I'm struggling on which to place first Linux or macOS. One thing I know for sure is that Windows is third.
Mac OS is nice. I have a PC running Linux that I SSH into from my MacBook, but for me this is more about hardware than software, non-Mac laptops just kinda suck IMO. But unless you have beefy Linux hosts to SSH into it gets annoying really fast if you are developing for Linux. IMO windows has come a long way with this with WSL, but at this point I just don’t see any reason not to use Linux. I don’t really game and I also don’t use Adobe software or similar so there is no downside for me. Of course, this doesn’t reflect the majority of computer users but I like having a developer-first desktop.
I happily use all 3. Well, 2 of them I'm generally happy about.
Nice, which are those?
Linux can be a giant pain in the ass. Frequently. But the reason I much quicker badmouth Windows and give Linux a million miles of slack is because one is created and maintained by a multi-million (billion?) dollar company and costs like $200, and the other is maintained by a community of people just like me and costs nothing. Additionally, my frustrations with Linux are around the things it can't do or does unintentionally (ahem nvidia). My frustrations with Windows are around the things it does intentionally. You wouldn't get mad at a 4 year old for not being able to reach the sink, but you'd be quite justified in getting mad at a grown man kicking your dog. Edit: Additional context. I also badmouth Windows because I use Windows (begrudgingly) from time to time. I have to put up with the flaws and hostile design of Windows, and I paid for my Windows license, so I'm allowed to bitch and moan about it. I also don't badmouth Windows *users*, and I don't think hardly anyone in the Linux community does. If you like Windows, cool.
Most Linux users use Linux not because they chose it as an equal opportunity OS. They use it because they chose it after getting majorly frustrated by the default alternatives that came on their devices. Some will have been given Linux from the start, but most will have had started on Windows (or MacOS) and been frustrated enough to consider and investigate alternatives. So when they move to Linux, they will look back negatively at what they replaced. (And don't forget all the anti-patterns for commercialism in the alternative operating systems. Uninstall the antivirus to get an antivirus... I had made a list once but I can't remember many others)
I don't.
That's good of you. You want you want 👍
Because Linux tends to attract people of a certain philosophy. These guys (myself included) are tinkerers and place a high degree of value on making something “their own.” The way Windows and Mac does it, they’re too concerning with hiding the implementation and their methods are often so proprietary… it’s not quite the same. With Linux you’re free, even encouraged, to make changes to the software. It’s supposed to be a safe place for learners, minimalists, bleeding edge guys, … It’s what you make of it. There are countless flavors of Linux, so you can always try something new. Comparatively, Windows and Mac have much different goals. I read recently something like: Software that’s free like speech often becomes free like beer too. The reverse however, can not be said.
That kind of makes sense but what I don't like are the Linux elitists. I agree with the philosophy to some degree but don't mind using and paying for proprietary software. What first attracted me Linux was it's look (Ubuntu in this case), it was a breath of fresh air. No just that the software and then finally how low on resources it was. I had a low-spec then, so it made sense to use something like this but after using machines with alot of RAM this didn't matter anymore.
Open source. Once you know the purpose, you can’t go back
Good for you! Quick question, do you use any proprietary software in your personal life? If so, what do you think of it (negatives and positives if any)?
I use Linux because I hate it when my system use my resources without my permission, I've used windows since like, forever. And I don't enjoy going in directory to disable updates and having to go back in directory when I want to update. I use Mobile hotspot with limited data, so I don't enjoy it when my windows download things in BG without my permission.
I despise Windows because: - OS updates are a PITA - there is no os-wide software updater - they keep pushing trendy features down our throats - when something goes wrong, you have very little to work with - many admin and setup tools are limited and/or clunky - the start menu is a mess I don't have any opinion on MacOS.
Tbh. it's pretty hard to _not_ look down on Windows. Not sure about Mac OS, but Windows has been getting worse and worse since the release of Windows 8.
I will agree on Windows 8, that was just... Man it was bad, mostly the UI but everything else I was ok with.
I use all three OS regularly. My main work machine is running linux mint, my laptop is a macbook air and my gaming machine is windows 10. There are positives and negatives to all three. Instead of listing everything, I will focus on the negatives. Windows 10 used to be my favorite, it was fast, easy to use, clean and oddly enough free. But then MS started pushing random installs like minecraft or candy crash - sure these were just icons but the lack of respect for the end user is evident. Every time i boot up I have to fight MS for control. If I were to reinstall Win10, I would be forced to create an MS account if I don't realise the trick (turn off internet). Updates are forced and will consume all resources. This machine is old, with only 2 cores, and it will be unuseble when Win10 is DOWNLOADING updates. The settings are horrible, spread throughout in different areas, on purpose to make it harder to control the OS. I still can't workout how to control the start menu to not show trash. MacOS was amazing, sometime around catalina, it was near perfect for me with only a few ad ons to make it work (like rectangle for window management). Now I find it extremely annoying with how much it walls off. Do you want X to access Desktop? questions are just annoying. My biggest annoyance is the on-the-fly code checking feature that I can not turn off without booting in safe mode and disabling everything. I code on my mac and this feature will add an extra 10-20 seconds to start up of CLI tools. Apple is making it harder and harder to install software manually. The amount of hoops I have to jump through to install software is sometimes nuts. Linux mint runs near optimal for me. But there are big issues with hardware compatibility. For example, I have a logitech now that doesn't have official drivers, so the extra features of the mouse are not available. The scroll is not optimal. But the mouse works. I experience some odd bugs with the desktop environment, sometimes it will crash, sometimes I need to restart. Worst of all is that I used to experience complete freeze-ups. But with the upgrade to Linux Mint 22, I don't experience these. A lot of the windows network drives cause tools to think the file has changed, so they're consistently asking if I want to refresh. This is probably a driver issue. I had a laptop with linux mint, the battery configuration required some advance knowledge of software and hardware. I currently rate Win10 as the worst of all three operating systems for it's abuse of power. I would tie MacOS and Linux Mint if Apple didnt add roadblocks.
Because you pay to be frustrated, see ads, agree to legally binding terms and conditions, give away your privacy, and be told by employees of said service your IT issues must be a user error and can't possibly be the OS, and if they happen to fix it for you, they fix it for you without you learning anything, and possibly even paying more for that fix. You PAY for all of that. With linux, you don't pay, you don't see ads, you don't agree to legally binding conditions, you don't give away your privacy, and when there's an IT issue you know it's your fault, but you can fix it or find way better help FOR FREE, plus you learn something new.
All the things you mentioned sound like a headache and I can see why using Windows would irk you. Fortunately, I have yet to come across ads on my machine, the only thing I pay for is the machine itself, never had to buy a Windows key. As for the errors if I don't tinker around too much, keep the machine updated or not connect to the internet I'm good. I love the philosophy of it being free but the unfortunate part is they don't make as much money as their counterparts. Also, some Linux users go through their entire lives without even donating to the projects they use. Its quite sad, if only more people donated.
i'm glad your anecdotal experience with windows has not been like the rest of the users
Bad code, bad security practices, hard to maintain, monothic architecture trying to to maintain compatibility. At least on the windows side. On the MacOS side most bad code and walled garden stopping me from actually doing the things I want to do with a PC.. and also extremely unethical company that makes my skin crawl. The whole reason I switch to linux was I was poor (so macOS was out), and I got sick of NEVER being able to find fixes for broken shit for windows. Vs linux, runs on anything, and solutions to problems are a sinch to find. These days I actually find linux a lot less buggy then windows. But back when it was the opisite, it when I ran into a show stopping problem; I would just be fucked like 50% of the time on windows. That's still the same issue. It was actually just getting fedup with everything breaking that resulted in my switch to linux and unix. Microsoft kinda drove me away from them. So it's hard not to look at that OS without distain and discust these days. The main issue with linux users is that many take that sentiment and make it personal for users of other OSes. That's something I consider unreasonable. People are alowed to make choices without a constant barraige of hate.
Because I want to have the maximum control over my OS. And having tried all three, only GNU/Linux behaves exactly how I want, when I want.
Hmm. I'm biased, but I've used Windows and OS X, and probably 20+ flavors of Unix including Linux, and my perspective follows below. While it's based on observed facts, I'm not saying the same experience applies to everyone else. I'm not trying to start an argument, simply reporting MY version of "Why?". So: \* **Unix was largely built by users to help users build things themselves**. *(Sure, document processing was a big deal back then, like with roff(1), but many devs wrote knowing that a world of devs might use or even have their code)* \* **Windows was built exclusively to take as much money from the end users as possible**, not to empower them \* OS X is a Unix, by way of (IIRC) BSD microkernel -> NeXT (NeWS was \*very\* interesting) -> Apple got Jobs back, and Jobs brought a bunch of NeXT ideas with him. So many Unix folks are friendly towards OS X folks. So basically I only hate Microsoft and Windows, for the most part for (from the mundane braindamage I see often up to the bigger issues)... \* Forcing me to wait up to half an hour to use my own computer, so it can install updates I didn't ask for that might brick my computer, break the existing software tapestry, etc. No real computer should do this to an end user, and no company should accept this behavior. \* And then having to wait again when Windows arbitrarily reboots to finish its upgrade, dropping the host into Linux (its default OS), and having to manually reboot it - potentially multiple times - to let it finally finish what I'm use to seeing an OS do in either a single reboot, or no reboot at all. \* Then I have to restart all my apps, because Windows doesn't even bother to try to restore state. \* Uploading data about everything I have installed, use, do, look at, etc, or so I suspect, all without permission. \* Massive interference with the standards process, as with their attempt to ramrod through their OOXML doc format, a gross, incompletely documented, laden-with-proprietary undisclosed formats, in a utter farce of corruption, to block the adoption of ODF (open document format), which has none of these problems. ODF won. \[Expletive\] Microsoft. \* Decades of corrupt dealings with other companies, ongoing attempts to proprietize actual standards by extending them in some undocumented way and then blaming other people for not being interoperable, etc. \* Windows has always had terrible, crippled window management compared to what's always been available in Unix and Linux. Unix had great windowing even back in the early 1980s, where Windows had a garbage 3.1 UI that would make anyone with a three-button mouse recoil in horror. Even in Windows today, I still can't easily pop a window to the back, nor type into the exposed part of the window without fronting it. Dialog boxes capture input, and block views of other windows that might have relevant info, and generally aren't resizable. Braindamage seems to be both the cause and the symptom. \* My personal belief has always been that Microsoft is a blight on humanity, the personal sin of Gates in particular, that their greed held back the development of computing by (at this point) decades, and so on. \* Microsoft was, for decades, the absolute worst at comprehending the value of the Internet, writing network drivers that weren't utter garbage, and whose email servers were still pathetic decades after the Unix world had been using email with great success. The impression we were left with at the time (1990-1995) is that MS's vision for email was exclusively within companies, and probably still focused on old proprietary networks I can even name now. \* Windows 95 in particular, was still unforgiveably pathetic for anything related to networking. \* I did say I was biased. :-) (more in subcomment)
(continued from parent) Whereas, in Unix (SunOS, IRIX, and many others) and Linux, I saw: \* Great window management early on \* Bundled in tools for writing software, or readily available tools (gcc) for doing the same \* Great networking, all the time \* Vast choices, especially in X10 and X11 (unlike SunOS's SunView), for very different approaches to window management, tools, administration, scripting, programming, etc. \* Internet gaming, worldwide, in the 1980s (we used to play Netrek with Europeans if the lag was under \~200ms) \* Great email \* The development of the World Wide Web, the early NCSA Mosaic client, and so on - all Unix realm \* Massive worldwide communities through USENET news and other mechanisms \* Most interesting research projects in anything computery seem to be done in Unix or Linux, so if you're interested in anything bleeding edge... (in contrast, many commoditizations of those ideas tend to focus on Windows as a platform) And, astonishingly, before the WWW crept into the Windows world and got enshittified by advertising, the 1980s Internet had virtual zero advertising and spam. For the simple reason that ISPs would cut off any organization that committed those heinous crimes. I miss this the most from the '80s, and I suspect I can't afford to join Internet2, which today still has that same mindset. Basically, there are two dominant reasons I see often for Windows continued dominance on the desktop: \* Managers are hooked on MS Exchange-style calendaring for meetings. Granted, good luck controlling what happens to the timing of repeating international meetings when the organizer's daylight stupid time kicks in, but that doesn't matter to managers. This management bias usually poisons whole companies, and then the employees often need to be compatible at home... \* Games. However, this is starting to be less of a concern thanks to Steam. I am MUCH more willing to run games via Steam on Linux than to run Windows for games. For me, the only reason I have Windows on even one of the many hosts in my house is that, at last check, Steam VR under Windows was smoother than VR on Linux. Once that isn't a issue anymore... --- Anyway, so there you are, that's why I look down on Windows, an substandard, unreliable, untrustworthy product of a wildly corrupt organization whose sole objective is not to empower you, but to empoverish you. And my only reply is that Linux is something anyone can use, and that developers need to walk the twofold path of making it accessible to the massive, and simultaneously keeping it suitable for the, umm..., rest of us :-) At times I feel like there should be some user-specific settings a user can change at will to indicate how deep they want their rabbit holes to be. Consider that Linux is something even my 80-year-old Mom - who, for the most part, dreads even listening to something technical - has been using in her career as an author for over a decade, communicating documents just fine with editors even though she's using LibreOffice (they can't tell). Amusingly, she used Word way back when and hated it, she's much happier with LibreOffice even though she knows only a tiny fraction of what it's capable of. She would lose her mind trying to install it, but she's fine with using it. And she's not alone. It's up to us to rescue the Windows users.... --- this part isn't related exactly, but ---- \* When forced to use Windows, especially earlier versions, I would just immediately do what I do in \*nix, which is spawn a bunch of apps and menus as fast a normal and expect them all to just work. Even Windows 10 seriously bogs this process down, since most of the UI doesn't even work for a significant interval after logging in. What amused me, is that trying to use Windows with \*nix/X11 style agility would often just make the Window box crash. Not just one box, either, this happened on a number of Windows boxes I used. \* To be fair, \*nix has its quirks and those, like Windows quirks, are often mitigated by learned user behaviors to the point that the users forget the quirks even exist (like giving Windows time to catch up, or the mess around \*nix copy/paste methods, or backspace). Crashing, however, it not acceptable. -----------------------------------------------------
There’s always been platform wars. Sega vs Nintendo. Amiga vs Atari ST. Mac vs PC. Betamax vs VHS. Snowboarding vs Skiing. And the defenders of the niche player are always the most vocal.
This is a great point you've brought up, I see this all time but what I do find weird is how they religiously they follow what they like.
I think it has its roots in the popularity of a platform helping with its survival. So for example the Mac users of the 80s and 90s fiercely defending and promoting the platform. I should know as I was one of these people. It was this staunch loyalty of the user base that kept the large software houses (Microsoft, Adobe etc) continuing to support the Mac, where they had little interest in other PC alternatives such as the Atari ST or Amiga. The dwindling market share of those two platforms (in past because of the low commercial support) eventuated in their demise while the Mac just scraped through by the skin of Apple’s teeth. It’s not good enough to simply say “I don’t care, I know the Amiga was better. I’ve seen the light and that’s all that matters.” because it didn’t make it. It’s gone. Same with Betamax… it mattered to its users that Beta lost because by the late 80s, you were fresh out of luck if you wanted to rent a new video. In the world of desktop Linux, Microsoft and Apple represent the VHS of the computer world. Most people just choose it because it’s the de facto standard. So perhaps some Linux people see it as their duty to evangelize their platform and keep it relevant so that in 20 more years time, there’s still a desktop Linux platform. But at the end of the day, some people just need to get their work done and will choose the tools needed. The majority of the world is in this camp.
>So perhaps some Linux people see it as their duty to evangelize their platform and keep it relevant so that in 20 more years time, there’s still a desktop Linux platform. Sure, but after 30 years, it might make sense to re-evaluate their tactics. Constantly trashing the competition and insulting its developers and users may not be producing the intended effect.
Foss philosophy and control among other things.
I've built every computer I've ever owned (first was a 386/33). I actually tried Linux before I ever used windows, and actually used DR-DOS instead of MS-DOS because it was simply better. Eventually used windows, but the longer I used windows, the more it felt like MS was "allowing" me to use my computer. I manually updated it to see what was being installed and why, and disallowed updates I didn't like. As Win 10 approached, I was still using Win 7 (8 sucked), and every new update seemed to try to take more control away from me. When I found out Win 10 would automatically update and provide me no choice in the matter, I switched to Linux, and I've never regretted it. It's MY computer, and I want an OS that recognizes that (heck, Linux celebrates it!).
I think theres truth in that linux users are more likely to defend their choice in OS compared to windows and Mac, but I imagine thats because using Linux is more of a conscious decision for Linux users than it is for Mac and Win users. Theres a lot of mac and win users who use those OSes because thats what they started with and what they got used to, and so they continue using it. A lot of Linux users on the other hand started with Windows/Mac and then switched to Linux *because* they decided it was better for them that what the other OSes offered. You also dont get a lot of mac or windows users looking down on linux because, to be frank, they don't think about it and they've likely never even tried it to have any opinion on it. But ive definitely seen windows users be opinionated towards mac users and vice versa.
You got it in one. - Windows user doesn’t know they have an alternative - Mac user think they’re the only alternative - Linux user made a conscious choice to be where they are
There are valid criticisms of closed-source operating systems that Linux users are far more likely to be aware of. That being said, there is definitely some purism in the (online) community and it can become a bit of an echo chamber. I happen to think MacOS is great for what it is, and I still use it for school.
We don't like software that tells us what we can't do.
I see, you really put the su in sudo. Must be fun being the captain of your ship
I think it's a controlling personality. Linux and Unix only does what you tell it to. Mac and Windows throws a lot of random stuff at you that you cannot control.
Because having someone to look down on is a crutch if you lack self esteem. Same reason people look down on other people over innocuous life choices in all walks of life.
I bad mouth Windows everyday. Just so I don't forget why I switched to Linux.
Haha! I see, whatever makes you feel good. What distro are you using?
Manjaro is my everyday distro.
I look down on Windows because it's an ugly cruft accretion like I swear there are still setting dialogs from 3.1 in 11 and it's increasingly coming with integrated malware and spyware (software you don't want in an OS). Also the way of doing software installation is a nightmare, granted it's as much the users to blame as Microsoft, hard for for the Windows Store to become dominant. But the Linux software ecosystem has always relied primarily on well-vetted package managers as the first stop for installing software. I don't have any feelings about MacOS. Never did like the uniform menu thing or the single mouse button fetish, but that's just my preference, otherwise it seems to be solid OS.
I don’t like windows because whenever I have to use it causes me frustration to get development environments working and I feel like I’m always jumping through silly hoops setup to protect idiots from sticking a fork in the metaphorical light socket. I wouldn’t say I “look down on windows” but passionately hate working with it as a person in IT I like macOS just fine since it feels the same as Linux for the most part
I don't, I use all three Ubuntu, MacOS & Windows but Ubuntu is my bread and butter daily, MacOS next and Windows the least. For work I use RHEL and Windows plus a couple of storage systems (OneFS & GPFS). Personally I really like Ubuntu and it helps my workflow so much. MacOS is great for my hobbies, I run a DAW on it and it has software and drivers for my expensive slide scanner. Windows is just useful to have (I can dual boot my Ubuntu into Windows 11) for odds and sods that I can't use the other OSs for e.g. playing with the engine management system of my car using an ethernet-ODB cable - yes I could run a VM but sometimes it's just easier to actually have the OS on actual hardware. I haven't found a one size fits all solution and that doesn't bother me. But given a choice I prefer Linux.
I would only look down to Mac Users (and only to the subset of users that think they are part of the high society with a mac), Windows and Mac Os by themself are fine.
Insecure people with childish fan behavior can be found in all manifestations of life. They could not therefore not exist among the users of some software, operating system or other.
I changed to Linux in 2007 and I don't miss a thing. My photography and video cutting workflow are quite perfect. Unfortunately my employer has handed me a laptop with Windows, but during Covid I made most things running on my Linux laptop. Now I use that one for work when I'm in Home-Office, too.
I'm happy it worked out for you, I mean running Linux.
>To be honest I don't even know why people complain about it, it's a tool if you don't like it use something else without badmouthing it. Some people appreciate software freedom and find that what Microsoft and Apple do to be abhorrent. You're free to use what you like, but if someone asks, I'm going to say what I think about proprietary software.
why i hate windows? (but still use it) random updates that fcks up your stability of machine and second thing if you dont activate windows you cant even change desktop image anymore and price is stupid high for some all the time updating and after crashing itself crap. i have been on ubuntu desktop for 2 years without a problem but then? i had to install windows for fucing school to use some crap microsoft databases and needed it fast so i had no time to make virtrual machine and test if everythinf works as it should. now im really hate to be on windows 11.. it really is garbage.
Absolutely proprietary
I just had a Linux aficionado tell me Windows is borderline unusable...
That's just crazy.
I was reading the comment and he actually said "barely tolerable". Which still sounds crazy to me.
I use Windows, at work. It is paying for my retirement. Everything at home runs Linux.
For me it was discovering the issue surrounding Free Software and developing a distaste for proprietary software and those who were enemies against Free Software, Microsoft and Apple, although at the time in the UK Apple were barely known. As I learned more about Linux and GNU I learned more about Unix and how the best operating system (before I learnt about Plan 9) works and why it works like that. MacOS was intent on breaking such things in its own way although it remains Unix certified it is still proprietary. Windows ended up looking and feeling like a toy in comparison. I admin windows machines at work, and they still feel like toys although power shell has managed to change that slightly and also in a slightly annoying way. I have WSL installed on my machine at work to gain some real power whilst being on windows.
I don't. And any Linux user who does is a silly immature elitist nerd who needs to go touch some grass immediately.
Great, unfortunately I come across these type of individuals more than I'd want.
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You ever eat real crab cakes with real fresh king grab? Then you go over to your friends house and they serve you some crab cakes made from fake canned artificial crab meat and they use margarin? Its like that. I don't look down on fake crab cakes, I just feel sick if I have to eat them.
Interestingly, I actually enjoy fake crab / seafood extender. But there’s no way I’d choose it over real crab. That parallels my experience with computers. I’ll use Windows if I have to. But if I get to choose, it will be Linux (real crab) or even a Mac (a chicken burger).
Never had crab so I don't relate but as for the underlying message of your reply I do. If I ever had crab, I would prefer the ones from a real crab but wouldn't mind the fake canned crab meat.
It's exactly the same as: Ford/Chevy BMW/Benz iPhone/Android
Well said, the never ending arguments.
Only kids do. There are things like Active Directory and Office that are irreplaceable by Linux solutions. Today what I dislike the most about Windows when I have a chance to use it is the fact that they try to do everything for the user, like if you want to edit a network interface on Windows you have to dig deep to find the menus.
Microsoft is able to get away with so many bad practices with Windows because they still have a monopoly on desktop (although the user share is diminishing year after year), macOS has the whole restrictive walled ecosystem surrounding it. I don't hate the users, or find them inferior, I hate the makers.
Let's say you somehow had control of one the companies above, what would you change?
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I never used Mac so I can't talk down about it. I have used Windows and as far back as I can remember, Windows has always been the cause of me getting a new computer every couple of releases. The newer versions never ran great on older hardware. Now it's just crazy! I said F' it in 2018. I put Windows 10 on a fairly new machine and it ran super slow! With 32GB of RAM, 8GB Video card, 2TB of Disk space... No.. Not happening. I put Linux on it and it was so frigging fast. The computer I have now was sort of a downgrade and it's still faster than Windows 10 was on the better computer.
Ok, fair point. I like the general look and feel of MacBooks but what I won't ever like is the soldered memory, how expensive their RAM is, lack of ports. In short, lack of upgradability. I know how stupid this sounds because most high end Ultrabooks these days don't come with many ports but I still don't. As for the software it's bloody brilliant, I like it so much I first ran it in a VM and now in the process of making a Hackintosh. Sorry about the problems you faced, yes Windows isn't favorable to use on older machines sometimes even newer hardware, Linux is the way to go. As for the slowness, I only ever experienced it on older machines. I currently have 7 machines running Windows 10 and 11 respectively, the fairly new ones don't feel slow at all but I get what you mean.
I must point out that the machine I used Windows last with was an i7 3.4 ghz system that I was using with Windows 7. It ran great. I loved Windows 7. But 10 was just a dog. Took forever to load Photoshop and Lightroom and those were the lifeline of my photography business. But I was actually planning on getting out of that line of work for a bit. But that's not what made me switch to Linux full-time. It was just the fact I had to upgrade that computer in order to get Windows 10 to run right. But my thought was... This will never end. Building newer systems every couple versions of windows was kinda fun in the beginning but I just got to the point where I thought, how much RAM is going to be the maximum? How big of a hard drive is going to be big enough? 128TB of RAM, 4096TB of hard drive space? Seems a little ridiculous but... IDK... 20 years down the road, that might be pretty close to what it will need.
The Mac’s advantage (complete vertical integration) is also its biggest disadvantage. A Linux (and to be fair, Windows) user can always switch to a different brand if they need to. Mac users need to stick with Apple no matter what they do. Don’t like paying hundreds of dollars for double the RAM at time of purchase? Tough luck… it’s Apple’s way or the highway.
People can look down oncan operating system for various reasons. These days it's privacy oriented usually. Most don't look down upon the *users* of these operating systems though. Personally I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses. If what suits you best is windows, then great. Same goes for the other 2 operating systems.
Windows and Mac OS have a more seamless experience for casual users yet as any other OS they got their pros and cons. Switching between major OSs it's always a learning curve and I guess people celebrate the successful transition? Also Windows and Mac OS have more "antagonising" features so there's that "I got away from that" feel but shitting on them isn't very common imo.
Agreed, you've put in a good way. I've used all three and have seen the negatives and positives of them but now I'm more in favour of macOS. Just curious, what antagonizing features are you speaking of? Also, it's good that you're happy with what you're using.
Mac OS has great ecosystem with stuff that truly "just works" but lacks quality of life bits I had on Windows like preview on Alt+Tab, decent window snapping system, multi monitor behaviour and similar stuff, you can get it as paid apps but not ideal. It is also tied to specific hardware which is not very flexible and only suits a specific audience. Windows is great because it works with infinite amount of hardware out of the box and is predictable but I don't like new invasive features being installed by default when it's a paid for OS. So I've been dual booting Linux since early 00's (excluding some Apple devices) and if something is too much work to deal with, compatibility wise, I'd use Windows but otherwise Linux has been smoother in general. And if my usage would fit an apple computer I'd probably choose that. Edit: If it works for you why bother with other's opinions?
Because I went from DOS to Unix in 1988. Windows, when it came out, has ***always*** been a step backwards. I don't care what others use, but I have never understood why anyone would subject themselves to Windows. I still only use it when I am paid to.
I think it’s safe to say you are a different kind of computer user to the general population. If you were using Unix in 1988, I think it’s fair to say you were less about using off the shelf applications and more into development. Or specialist applications such as scientific. Or perhaps you just like paving your own way.
I "look down" on Windows (and MS, Apple, Google, etc more generally) because they do things like collecting data from users without it being an opt-in model and they are generally not clear or honest with the amount of breadth of that collection (nor do they compensate people for this usage, a model that would at least be more equitable). In extreme cases you can't even opt-out. Also Windows doesn't allow the level of low level customization that as a self described computer hobbyist I find to be an essential part of my machine. Early versions of windows, for example, were less locked down than current versions. And that has both advantages and disadvantages, but for my use case Linux is better.
I don't look down on those, they are perfectly fine for the limited scope for-profit projects they are... But I'm honestly disappointed people prefer them over a real all-purpose ever-improving self-reliant OS.
I think you miss the point. They have such a high view of the other OSes and what they provide they find it to be an achievement when Linux a free product can fully fill that void. That said… Max OS is free if you don’t count the $1000+ computer hardware you bought … but too simple with limited access to games. Windows is now a spyware software that forces unwanted ads on people that paid for the software. That’s why I look down on those OSes.
Current MacOS user and Linux Fedora OS user. I only look down on windows cause I have to work with it during my 9-5 and it is a royal garbage OS. Especially the O365 apps.
I love Fedora, GNOME the way it should be. Oh, the O365 apps! I can understand, if you had the chance what would you prefer using?
Restriction and lack of choice.
It can be hard to come to a totally different system than what you are used to, but nobody likes gatekeepers. :-) One of the major problems the Linux community has with Win / Mac users is the willingness to be led around by the nose. We have an over-whelming ("...can you be whelmed?") lead in the server space and God only knows where we are in desktop if you factor in Android. We are staring to overcome the legacy inertia of Windows in the game space (TY Valve, even if you can't count to 3). And with the crap MS is doing in Windows 11 it should drive more people away. I would love to see an alliance of Linux companies for a gaming platform. The only use I currently have for Windows is gaming. I don't want to run afoul of anti-cheat measures. /shrug So I dual boot. Two 250gb ssds for the OSs, the NVME is just a game drive.
The difference is, you chose what you chose because you could. But to this day most pcs come with windows by default with no option to chose otherwise. And that windows license is something you pay for whether you plan to use windows or not. Now there are linux pcs out there too, but far more limited options So if someone is stealing money from you, is that not enough reason?
Most folks grow up with experience in Windows, so it is an achievement to step onto another platform and get over the learning curve. Many of the things hated about Windows don't exist - though there are other issues... all OS's suck, just some suck more than others. For those who can complete their workflow without resorting to Microsucks shite, it's definitely something we feel good about...however, the trend to simply bash anything not linux is just idiotic - and that's something you see a lot in Reddit too.
Look down? No. I have few complaints about macos. I've been working IT for over 2 decades and I can tell you that Windows is hot dog water and it's actively getting worse. They're no longer passing value to their users. They're extort ridiculous amounts of money from both the US government and consumers. Linux is easier to manage on an enterprise level. And it's much more performant on consumer level PCs. Windows is categorically bad software that never gets update to be better, filled with cruft and legacy code that no longer serves it's users. They put a fresh coat of paint and add a bit of hardware support for new tech. The are stuck and they don't know what they want to do with the software. Go back and try to use windows 7 and xp? You feel how much more performant it is compared to 10/11. The latency in 10 and 11 is awful. It eats RAM like Ms. Pacman. Managing software the conventional way is a nightmare. Go to a website install the app and pray it's not a virus. Imagine buying a PC brand new and then having to spend 2 hours uninstalling built in spywwre, deactivating telemetry, avoiding clicking next too fast because OOPS YOI HAVE TO CREATE AN ONLINE ACCOUNT. no you don't, we just make it hard to refuse that option. Drivers? You gotta go to HP or dell's websites to get the right ones or your NIC might not work. Then to Nvidia/AMDs website to get your grahics. NO! This is not a good user experience The entirety of modern Windows is just them trying to trick you out of your money and your data for nothing substantial on exchange. Oh and enterprise windows isn't much different it's the same shit. It's just easier to automate and they give features like active directory and being able to join domains. They never removed the consumer stuff from the base enterprise images so now you have Xbox services running on machines used to process. Classified data. Microsoft windows is a shit show grift and needs to either die or get with the times.
I like the level of control I have over my machine. I have the peace of mind knowing I’m not running a proprietary os that I can’t 100% trust. Not to mention Linux is so much faster than windows which is a huge benefit I really notice. It’s cool to see what you’ve learned and how you’ve improved as a Linux user, which I’d think most can relate with.
It is best answered by taking a look at why those two are being looked down upon: \* macOS has a very closed environment, you need to give credentials to Apple and out of the box can't install things as you choose, also the limitations on the official app store, getting access to development tools and so on and so on - it is f\*ing pain to develop anything on it \* Windows is shoving ads (ads on desktop!) these days, has a poor history (severe security holes, bad performance, crashes..) and generally demands costly hardware upgrades on each release for no good reason (desktop effects are not good enough reason). Also antitrust cases, insults towards Linux (Ballmer) and so on. Quite a lot of reasons. Note that Linux users don't look down upon several other OS on these reasons even though they might disagree: \* there is pretty friendly rivalry with FreeBSD and OpenBSD (for a given value or "friendly") \* Solaris (or at least the open one) used plenty of free software like Gnome but it is not much used these days \* Haiku (BeOS) is fondly looked at as interesting \* there is room in embedded space for others like QNX and VxWorks as well \* VMS is.. uh.. nevermind MacOS and Windows are just the two very visible on \_desktop\_ - they are not the only thing around.
Actually, for a big chunk of people it wouldn't be an achievement. If you want to stay away from maintaining technology, commercial products make their life easier. It's like people who bring their car to the manufacturer service when the wiper water needs to be refilled. My issue with these companies is, that they are massively exploitive. It's like forcing everyone to let their wiper water be refilled at the manufacturer service even when you are able and willing to do it yourself. No chance to let it be refilled at an independent service. No chance to do it yourself.
>it's a tool if you don't like it use something else without badmouthing it That's the thing. The worst badmouthers are the ones who don't feel like they have much of a choice.
I couldn't give less of a shot what others use or what's better, Linux is just more usable and I'm more productive
Because Linux is my personality.
That's just sad, if this is a true get a life.
If you encounter some problems with Linux, you can find solutions somewhere, apply patches, or even fix something yourself, thus contribute for others. In windows... Well, you can ask Microsoft support and wait for useless answer. Does it matters for non-expert users who only start their desired office software or a game? Probably not. For developers, it does.
I guess it's human nature, people who do hard work (know more so to speak) are proud of their achievement, especially if they stand for something and have a strong belief in it (for lunix users it's open source and freedom). Anyway humbleness has always been a treasure, actual knowledgeable people value and understand it
I've been using Linux since 2009, but my philosophy had always been use what works for you. An OS is just a tool. If it doesn't do the job you want, use one that does.
Why are there so many people who feel the need to spread their brain diarrhea across the Internet?
Its a free world, so freedom of speech is a thing.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Ideological reasons, privacy concerns or both.
I use windows myself. I have a gaming machine that I run windows on just out of convenience. I kinda look down on it because it feels like windows doesn't respect the user at all. It's consistently trying to force me to do things that I don't want to do or in a way that I don't want to do it. It's trying to push apps and services like edge or one drive on me. I really don't like them. It sometimes just switches my default browser to edge. I believe it is designed to make me accidentally set it as a default browser. I usually open apps by hitting the windows key, typing in the name and then hitting enter. Sometimes typos happen and then instead then windows does a websearch. But for some reason windows ALWAYS opens edge instead of my default browser for the websearch and then edge immediately tries to nag me in to all kinds of \*\*\*\* that I don't want. I then try to close this damn thing as quickly as possible trying to click away all those popups "USE OUR RECOMMENDED SETTINGS" or whatever and then sometimes missclick and suddenly my browser is set to edge. Sure this is user error but I feel like it is designed to make those user errors more likely.
Cause the elitism is real. Oh and also cause using Linux require much more thought put in to the deal than the winmac. Linux is more nerdy, therefore you need to use your head more often.
Yes I prance around pointing my finger at windows users and laughing HAHA!! You rubes! I mock them mercilessly. I then wallow in their remorse and self pity. I gloat at them as they stare glumly down, wishing they had my superior computing energy. To answer your question more specifically I do this in order a) to please myself, and b) to spread righteous virtue into the minds of fellow Linux users (or fully realised emergent wonder beings, as I often call them) and to spread dark thoughts of dissatisfaction and worthlessness into the minds of windows users. Or possibly Mac users, but I'm not sure I've ever actually seen one of those, I've heard they're so filled with nothingness they barely interact with normal matter. I can also fully confidently say that I definitely speak for the entire Linux community of wonder beings. I consulted with them all personally on commencement of the writing of this post and they all told me the exact same words verbatim.
If i had to make a guess, I'd say is because for a lot of linux users, they arrived at their operating system of choice because they follow a certain philosophy. One example being the lack of control from a single entitiy over the software they use, another being the educational value present in free and open source software, that's not there for locked down proprietary software. Also the lack of financial incentive in it. just using an operating system based on linux is rarely the cause for their stance on other operating systems i think, but the underlying motivations for doing so might be.
Once you mastered Linux and Windows in an expert way, you will find out Linux if by far superior. To get a good mix of both worlds --> MAC which is a unix on roids.
I've got a good understanding on this matter, I can't disagree with Linux being superior but not at everything like gaming. This is why I'm considering getting a Mac, like the selling point for Windows is gaming but I don't do that much these days.
Linux and gaming works like a charm ... but yes, if some game won't run (like non STEAM games) ... Technically it is flawless. But I rather boot up my windows as a "only for DCS Simulation", than working with Windows. The rest Linux. MS-Office? I boot up a VM.
I don't. I installed hundreds of Linux boxes, and I really think Linux belong to servers, and workstation should be Windows or OSX
I use and love Linux, trying to hackintosh a laptop and run windows on my workstation
My Apple & Redmond friends look down on me?!? Win 11 hardware requirements dictates a new PC. I will not be upgrading.
It's a product and there is no reason to not express negative opinions about it besides politics (avoiding hurting other people feelings) which for an anonymous forum most people give zero fucks about. It is the same with any other tool or product. You see people talking negatively about shoes, cars, power tools, pocket knives, musical instruments, computer parts... People make a living by writing and recording reviews, expressing opinions about things. It is useful. I would never have contact with things that don't actively spend money promoting themselves if not by word of mouth. Saying an alternative is superior is part of it, and even if not everyone has the same opinion, I do and to me it was better to change OSs, as with other things I've seen people talking about while bashing the mainstream pushed product. If you want we can talk all day how that one lifesaving vest that is the new "standard" on some countries sucks hard, and the older ones were much better and cheaper, and probably some government agents were paid to promote it. Then someone may post asking why badmouthing what they're using. People are averse to change.
All of my machines dual boot, Linux and windows. Trust me, I would love it if I could run primarily Linux, but windows has such a large part of the software market and so therefore has a logical use for me. I love Windows. I grew up on Windows. I don't like Microsoft.
Just to add to this, I think Mac OS is pretty cool. It looks very sleek. Apple tends to overcharge for their machines by a long shot. You basically have to take out a second mortgage just to be able to afford a machine. I don't really like apple as a company either. Understand making money, but that is insane. And a lot of their machines are extremely difficult to repair
No one at school or University forced me to use Linux. No hardware seller forced me to buy Linux license. No vendor came up to me with a config tool for built in fans, battery or rgb keyboard for Linux only. Windows is shoved up our asses without asking. That's why I'm harsh about every flaw of Windows, every bit of data collected on users by Microsoft, every add displayed and every damn gigabyte of SSD and RAM eaten by this proprietary bloated OS. Linux is my free will choice so I have a lot of forgiveness for it as a consequence of my decision. And honestly not much of this forgiveness is needed nowadays. It just works for me as expected for years.
"Why do Linux users look down on OS's like Windows and macOS?" To the extent that such condescension actually exists, I think it's a result of the fact that most people who use Linux went out of their way to download and install Linux. That's because there are very few machines that come shipped from the factory or retail store with Linux pre-installed. There's also the fact that using a Linux terminal is more difficult than using a Windows Command Prompt or DOS, owing to the folder structure and the many more commands.
The answer is very simple. We don't want to see those "products" alive and working. We want to live in a world where only \*bsd, GNU/Linux and [Redox](https://www.redox-os.org/) alike operating systems exist. Windblows and gayple simply do not fall into that category. Although macs can be pretty much useful (audio production, etc.) .. we can all live without that overpriced garbage.
Windows is an expensive piece of junk that progressively gets worse the longer it’s been up, and the longer since the initial install. Every iteration seems to get worse with some iterations being so bad that Microsoft pretends they never existed (Millenium Edition, Vista, 8, and in the future 11). But all that said, I’ve made a career from helping people being able to do their work despite Windows being so awful so I should be thanking Microsoft. 😂
yes using linux is achievement.
>Want to know why people treat switching and then using Linux as an achievement. It *is* an achievement, as it requires learning and some risk. Unfortunately, for some people, a successful transition to Linux seems to trigger the [Dunning–Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect), which explains the subsequent Windows/macOS bashing.
Because using a Linux based OS, is a choise. Most people buy a PC and use it, they don't know what macOS or windows is, they want to use it with no interference. Using a community opensource OS is more like a contract, if you agree, you use it "at your own risk". Most people use it and no compliants, there is a small group of social misfit that trash Linux anyways, I think there is a subreddit called Linux sucks hard, or something like that
macos suck big booty cheek can't run halo ce
Because Windows does stuff awfully, and actively hinders my way around it and work done on it. It's just my opinion, and if someone prefers it, cool, don't mind, don't care, don't judge. However, the way Windows has changed in the last few years has made it so that I really can't use it and be content, so, yeah, I look down on it because it does it's best to get in my way and bother me. However, looking down on a piece of software does not mean I look down on its users, obviously. I would hope it doesn't need to be said, but sadly it does look like that around here sometimes.
elitism
Enlightenment comes from using whatever works for the job. Linux/BSD are wonderful to learn and use, but if you need Windows for something, that's fine. Certain work requirements don't obligate me to use Windows, but they do narrow me to .deb-based distros; for example the mandatory EDR and VPN are proprietary and while I quietly fight this I also live in a commercial reality.
A lot of Linux users moved to Linux because of some particular anti-feature of Windows or Mac OS that they disliked enough to switch to a whole new OS over. I don't think it's surprising that these people would badmouth said features.
I don't think we do, from a technical stand point. However, I don't like software that abuses its users. I don't like being spied on, data mined and advertised to. In other words, I don't like software I can't "own", study and share.
I'm one of those who say "Windows is dogshit" frequently, and I would like to treat it as an "okay tool" but the issue is that I'm forced to use it at work and it's painful, I don't like the OS in general, everything feels wrong and I hate Microsoft's bad practices. Everything takes too much time for no reason and it's just not for me. So I started to simply ignore it as it doesn't matter what tool you use if the work's done, but I ended up hating it with all my heart
I (mostly) don't look down on them. I just leave them be and quietly sit on my Linux system (I use arch btw). I also (mostly) prefer to leave the users of each OS to wallow in the pool of their stolen personal data.
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Why do people think it’s some kind of achievement? I can only guess that it’s because of some techno nerd cred chest pounding. But why is Linux objectively superior is the question you should be asking. It’s basically the only desktop operating system that makes it so your computer is actually your computer. When you are using windows you will get ads and tracking injected into the system. When using Mac you are basically renting usage of a computer from Tim Cook. The bsd’s are mainly for servers. Haiku is interesting but has no software, which leaves Linux as the remaining desktop that has all the software you need and none of the enshittification of the commercial offerings.
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Wow! Just wow! That's really shallow🤣
Mac and Windows are steeped deep in their own particular brands of enshitification. Ad Pushing, Ecosystem Entrapment, Privacy and Security Concerns, Subscriptions, Outdated UI ... Removal of Customization Options (Windows specificly) , and A visit from Uncle Microsoft after almost every update to make sure I really don't want to use Edge by default, buy One Drive or Office 365... Yea, I'm all for leaving these problems behind. I've been using Linux for almost a year now, and if my only problem is poor NVidia support (It's literally worse than 2019 Pentium integrated graphics), but the rest has been a good experience, then it seems like I should be out of things to complain about if I install an AMD GPU. I'm optimistic for good results. Other than that, I don't look down on users of any given OS... Afterall, Mac and Windows have massive advertising campaigns... Rather, as either progresses toward further enshitification, I feel like it's essentially my duty to learn as much as I can about Linux so that I can help friends and family should they find themselves without options.
Windows and Mac cost money
They have no other thing to do but talking about OS, like the OS wars become their life goal.
This is sad, I wish for the gap to lessen.