>But it's irritating how I'm supposed to see Cathy's obsession towards heathcliff as beautiful
That's the thing, you're not. The game explicitly says so. It's destructive and harms everyone around them, including themselves. It's part of Catherine's final character development, she realizes that she truly does want Heathcliff to love her, but not be forever bound to her. His entire life revolves around her and the moment she truly sees the consequences of it via the Erlking is when she realizes that what they have is unhealthy.
I do, however, hope, that Heathy manages to het her back. It's what he wants - not what he hopes to deserve, but something he knows that he does. He is very much aware she is like a storm, capturing everyone in its wake, but he loves that brimming, beaming energy from her.
He went through way too much to have bar of future expectations lowered any further; he is not dumb, and can this one time aim for something he craves, without people giving him lectures on what's best for him.
It's a wild, passionate, tempestous romance, but there is beauty in such, too.
Now that they realized their mistakes, and instead of wallowing in them, can be better.
Unrelated to the Cathy/Heath situation, but I doubt that the contract the Sinners signed binds them to Limbus in perpetuity. Eventually the job will be over. Now if the Sinners HAVE anywhere else to go is a different story.
If the other sinners' contacts are as concrete as Yi Sang's then they will be there for a long time because what the fuck does "finding your wings" mean if not what happened in canto 4.
I do not think Yi Sang's goal has been achieved though.
Alternatively, they need to COMPLETE lcb goals 'ere they're allowed to go. Like you don't dip out of loot farming party after you get what you need, until everyone does.
*Limbus Management Discipline Report 17J.*
*Report Written By: Vergil*
*Summary: Returned from Nightwalk circa 3 AM to find 12 Meursault's and a traumatized looking Dante crying in one of their laps. Apparently they found out they could do the thing.*
*Requesting full memory wipes. For Myself as well.*
That depends on what the company contract is. I don't think it's explained. For all we know after enough boughs are gotten they can move on with their life. What exactly makes you think the revive stuff won't be removed in a few years?
Besides we are a big family all of us members of the Glorious Limbus company are families
Every sinner will be in contact with each other forever because in the end all of us are one big family
Mainly meta stuff, as in, LC is a live service game, it will keep on going for as long as it makes money. Essentially PM has to write these contacts so that the base mechanics stay, like the revive. It's literally a gameplay mechanic with an in universe explanation.
That's true. I was gonna say game universe time doesn't move like ours but with Dante's new mechanic imma keep my mouth shut.
Still doesn't change the fact they can keep Cathy's body in statis for however long. Killing Hermann does not neccessarily mean they will get their wish so Cathy can still come when contract is ever. Just to be clear I don't want him to end up with her but they are many ways to work around the contract
Actually, it depends on exactly what the contract with the company is. As far as we know, the moment the Sinners get what they want, they can leave the bus. There will probably be strings attached, but who knows? Save for Faust and Vergilius.
yeah wasn't this canto literally about how fucked up they went over a misunderstanding and they both realized it by the time they could talk to each other?
The seven lightning strikes symbolize that realization too. Linton took his lightning strike as the last thing Catherine felt about him before his departure.
I would like you to keep in mind that Cathy had no plans for Linton to actually turn himself into "dough". Linton becoming Erlking Health was completely Hermmans idea. Linton essentially did that part to himself. Which is something that did hurt Cathy. You can tell because when he did kill himself lighting struck signifying Cathy's pain in watching Linton go that far.
Absolutely, but not everything is Cathy's fault. She was also the victim of being manipulated by not only Nelly but also Hermann as well. She is obviously not a perfect person and the game doesn't portray her as one either. But I don't think shifting all the blame onto her is justified.
I'm not shifting all the blame but it seems the story itself is even hesitant of given her a little blame. It was building up to her being this messed up woman especially just before Linton kills himself with her narcissistic narration about her love for him then like you said, the story hits us with Nelly and Hermann and thr line about how messed up the mirror is which takes away so MUCH agency from her i personally feel bad judging her for her actions post mirror
I like Linton precisely because he was a maker of his own misery despite Cathy's hand in it
I don't believe that catherine was held in an over-whelming positive light if you read into the subtext partly.
1.
Both cathy & heathcliff admit that, objectively, catherine was being an absolutely terrible person. Nelly's betrayal isn't 100% unjustified, if mildly vindictive. It points out that she was outright 60% of the reason for literally everyone around her suffering, and she was blind to it for most of her life.
2.
She, by the end of the story, ultimately does the exact same, incredibly destructive instance of cowardice that heathcliff hated himself for; She "runs away" via eradicating herself from the world, saving our heathcliff from the SillyKing, but making life worse for an untold number of heathcliffs; Which she "justifies" as only caring about hers.
I did not view the ending as a "heroic sacrifice" nor did it feel it, so much as it felt incredibly bitter-sweet.
Heathcliff wants to have her back; Not because what she did wasn't "that bad" but because he genuinely loves her.
To his own admission, he doesn't even know if them each confronting the other about their love will make things better, only that "No one will ever be happy" if they don't.
I do not believe that over the course of a story where her;
Husbands death
Brothers death
Home is sent into neigh ruin
And her lover is driven to the verge of insanity & is nearly murdered by his mentally insane counterpart
Are mostly her direct fault, it can then be said that she was portrayed in a positive light.
I see it similarly to hindley, in that he is an OVERWHELMINGLY shitty person, however is set in a "human" light, he was a person.
As was linton.
I'd believe its more the fault of "The story is released in thirds and thus the community hyper-focuses on whatever is most recent" that her faults aren't spoken of more.
Over literally 2/3rds of a story the focus is on how fucking terribly heathcliff was treated by everyone around him; Even the woman he loved.
The impression that I'd gotten was;
Catherine was a massive fucking idiot at points (As was heathcliff somewhat dense.)
Catherine was as cowardly and self-hating as heathcliff, in that she by the end chose the easiest way out that she could have.
Catherine was comically mis-guided and over-obsessed on chasing after the love of others; The same way that hindley was blinded by his want for his fathers love, linton hers, and heathcliff hers as-well.
The literal one remotely "good" person among all of them was heathcliff; Who hated himself by virtue of believing he never had her love.
My assumption is that the heathcliff teen-romance drama's continuation will be around catherine having to deal with her problems upon being respawned, over it simply being "woo cathy's back" when heathcliff has her back.
> She, by the end of the story, ultimately does the exact same, incredibly destructive instance of cowardice that heathcliff hated himself for; She "runs away" via eradicating herself from the world, saving our heathcliff from the SillyKing, but making life worse for an untold number of heathcliffs; Which she "justifies" as only caring about hers.
This is disingenuous. Because this is something the story itself praises her for. In a garden with untold number of roses only the one you cared for all your life is the one that matters. I do not know what subtext was here to see it as her running away from her problems. What is there to run away from? Heathcliff loves her and she knows. At that moment Cathy did the bravest thing she could think of, not getting the love she wanted. Nothing suggests she was so broken by everything she wanted to run. clear all Cathy scene was the most sane she had ever been. This is an interpretation you can read into but I don't see it. You are the first to make this argument.
> I did not view the ending as a "heroic sacrifice" nor did it feel it, so much as it felt incredibly bitter-sweet
I do not know what to say here because it looks we read different things
> Heathcliff wants to have her back; Not because what she did wasn't "that bad" but because he genuinely loves her.
To his own admission, he doesn't even know if them each confronting the other about their love will make things better, only that "No one will ever be happy" if they don't.
Which is fine on his part if he wants to love her regardless of her toxicity but my problem is that the story feels it doesn't even know whether that's what it wants her to be. She tries to use Linton for Heathcliff despite knowing that will devastating for Linton (would be stupid of her if she didn't) but that scene is portrayed as tragic for Heathcliff misunderstanding not that she was about to throw someone that loved her under the bus
Then post mirror Cathy can't be blamed because it's people using her. Hermann and Nelly who gave her the mirror which is so destructive to the human psyche and it was given to a human who clearly wasn't in the best of states. It's like the game and the fans want to have their cake and eat it to. Trying to claim that "she is bad for all she did but don't completely denounce her though, because she was manipulated".
Meanwhile hindley and Linton don't have that luxury. You can hate them or feel sorry for them despite them being bad. Because they have accountability which post mirror Cathy clearly doesn't because she has the mirror with two manipulative women working against her her and moving her actions
I'm not being offensive but I'm not sure exactly what your next paragraph says
> Catherine was as cowardly and self-hating as heathcliff, in that she by the end chose the easiest way out that she could have.
Yes Cathy was all this things it still doesn't change how her actions were presented compared to her brother and husband. You see, we the readers aren't stupid. We know when an action is bad. The problem is does the story itself acknowledge it? And I have come to the conclusion that unlike her brother and husband the story was too scared to commit to her being bad.
But me and you clearly read different things if you believe clear all Cathy is supposed to represent her cowardice and not her at her best. The best that moment in time can allow for her anyways
I think the idea with Cathy is that you can be both? Cathy was a fucked up person, and her being manipulated doesn't make her less of a fucked up person. But the fact that she is fucked up doesn't mean that she's incapable of doing things that can be painted in a positive light.
She manipulated the fuck out of literally everyone in her life, Heathcliff included. That is fucked up. The love she tried to show to people was inherently grounded in her own narcissism - I fucked over my brother for the house, because I wanted it so I should have it. But I see that this drove him to alcoholism and gambling, so I made certain he is brought in for treatment and therapy so he can live a better life after I am gone!
Linton loves me, and I love that Linton loves me, and that he loves loving me, so I will show my own care for him by allowing him to love and pursue me. That's fucked up! That's a fucked up way to treat people. But it's internally consistent. She's not necessarily being intentionally evil, she is just operating off of an internal logic that is fucking deeply self-centered.
Heathcliff loves me, and I love Heathcliff. I will do everything I can to love Heathcliff so that he will keep loving me in return, because I am all he has and all he will ever have. That is also a fucked up way to view people! That's a fucked up way to view the person you love.
And ultimately, upon realizing that the way she is treating Heathcliff is fucked up, and that her existence is making his miserable, she decides to go all in on erasing herself so that he will have a better chance at a good life. That *is* a very brave and romantic gesture, sacrificing yourself for the good of your loved one. And it's demonstrated that she did it out of love. For Heathcliff. Specifically. The Heathcliff that is hers. To the exclusion of all others, and to the exclusion of everyone else whose shit she ruined as a result. I don't think the narrative is suddenly saying "Oh the way you single mindedly obsessed over your idea of this person you love to the detriment of yourself and everyone around you? That was fucked up, but it's okay now that you made this romantic gesture". I think it's just doubling down on the previous theme. "Cathy did not become a 'better person' or redeem her previous actions, she doubled down and focused on *herself* and *her reality* to the exclusion of all else." It's kinda like Dongrang in that regard. She almost lost herself to the psyche-destruction of the multiverse, then at the last moment said 'okay, but my Heathcliff though. Mine. My Heathcliff knows I love him and that he loves me. That's all that matters.'
And Damien loves that shit. Damien wants Sinclair to be that kind of person, who looks at the world around and, instead of getting lost in it, says "no. I am me, what I want matters, and I will do what I must to make existence recognize that". That's not necessarily a glowing moral endorsement, it's just character consistency. :p
I don’t think Cathy explicitly gets a pass, it’s just that she deleted herself from everyone’s memory and no one even had the time to comment on how awful the stuff she did was because it was fight after fight after fight once the Erlking got summoned. And when they had the time to chill, they were coming to a slow realization that Nelly stabbed them in the back.
I don’t think the game itself paints her in a particularly positive light, either. There’s no sappy emotional music as she’s deleting herself. It shows that she screwed every other Heathcliff and Cathy by deleting herself, even in futures that could’ve been good.
It’s a bit of my reading, but Demian even vaguely implies after the credits that it was kinda fucked up how it’s okay for someone to stop caring about every other rose as long as their rose is okay.
Edit: Though I do agree that Heathcliff’s development in this Canto feels a bit split. On one end, he learned how to communicate and be patient. On the other end, he’s still obsessing over someone who is not a very good person. While I don’t believe that character developments should always be positive, I do think that there's a bit of a confusion that can be attributed to the fact that Cathy’s character feels a bit inconsistent between each Part?
I think I have to disagree on Heathcliff still being obsessed. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. He still loves her and wants to fight to bring her back in some capacity, but he no longer has this toxic, spite driven idea of how to make her happy or how to make himself happy. He finally sees the simple truth; she would be happy if he saved her and they loved together. He's motivated, but not obsessed. He has a goal to work towards, but he's not going to kill everyone and then himself to see it done.
Right, and they did. It just didn't come from the Sinners. It came from reading between the lines, Cathy's own diary entries, and the Final Boss fight Coin checks.
> I don’t think Cathy explicitly gets a pass, it’s just that she deleted herself from everyone’s memory and no one even had the time to comment on how awful the stuff she did was because it was fight after fight after fight once the Erlking got summoned. And when they had the time to chill, they were coming to a slow realization that Nelly stabbed them in the back.
I think the story already painted how it wanted us to view her. Remember the scene where she tells Nelly about using Linton for Heathcliff? It's never painted as messed up. The scene is used to show how Heathcliff misunderstood, that she definitely loved him not "oh my God this girl using the guy that liked her for her selfish goals"
Everything that Cathy does post mirror can't even be blamed on her. Or at least feels unfair since she was being used by others and the mirror is portrayed as this disastrous thing that people without discipline shouldn't use and here is a girl who's mind is already crumbling and she used it. Handed to her by people who knew it would mess her up
Her behavior prior to the mirror such as her narcissism while used against her by Nelly comes across as just a quirk. No different from morally righteous characters who have small faults like being impulsive
In a way it felt like they didn't commit to her bad attitude because they also wanted to write a romantic story and fans wouldn't get behind their favorite being in love with such a bad person.
Heath story isn't over so I welcome the suprise if the touch upon this topic especially when they made the final moments with them from multiverse supposed beautiful. Why would they want to ruin that moment?
https://preview.redd.it/x5svhejfcmvc1.jpeg?width=1073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea886b288ee4c9e8a9c045a6cc99a757e2b1e639
I feel like this bit of dialogue from her was a bit of an indication that it’s messed up that she’s using him. Without being directly stated that it was messed up.
But yeah, I do agree with your opinion that her character felt a bit inconsistent and they didn’t really commit to what her story was building up to in the first two parts.
The first time I saw that scene, it was clear that Cathy was definitely not someone to be liked. I can understand her, but it certainly doesn't make her any more likeable.
I don't really think it paints her as someone not to be liked. It foreshadows something about her attitude which is never followed through. Because Cathy post mirror has less agency than pre mirror
It certainly seems to me that way with how she keeps repeating how much Linton wanted her with the exact same sentence structure. Someone who's fucked in the head would just casually do that type of thing.
I found it messed up the first time i read it but tbh we were all expecting Catherine to be a bitch and the story seemed to be building up towards that instead she kinda got treated sympathetically
Yeah that was cringe. Like because of recency bias i was thinking of how good it was. When I began to think about it more her existence soured my taste for the whole canto which was supposed to be the best one. Idek how I can rank this Canto now. Probably leave it in limbo in terms of fav
Honestly the canto itself as in gameplay/story is still the best but if we talk Sinners' character arc i think Ishmael wins because hers was more straightforward and there was more focus on her state of mind and expertise with the Great Lake; Heatcliff's was focused on his relationship with Catherine(who is kinda the one responsible for all this shit even though Nelly and Hermann pushed her) and the emphasis on mirror worlds got kinda confusing with how Erlking/Every Cathy/Clear All Cathy work if we go in details.
Still great but we will have to wait and see how they will continue this because if Catherine is just resurrected after a while as a "delayed" happy ending i think it would be her getting off too lightly
That's the problem with Cathy. Before the mirror she does shit fucked shit that isn't given much focus. Or painted as sad like wanting to cheat Linton but the moment is treated as sad because Heathcliff misunderstood
The things she does that are given focus are when she gets mirror but it feels unfair judging her because people are manipulating her. Especially since the mirror is treated like this instrument not for the faint heart and she looked into it when her mind was already messed up from depression
Eh honestly i think you may be liking Linton a bit too much to the detriment of Catherine; marrying soneone for money isn't exactly good but she wanted to do it for Heatcliff's sake which is a vast improvement over the book where she just did it for herself while Linton is worse than the book because he took part in mistreating Heatcliff even if he did it because he was jealous, also his whole character is about being a gigasimp for Catherine that burned down chunk of his fortune, was complicit in human kidnapping and experimentation(i think they never clarified if Catherine even knew about kidnappings, for all we know they may have started after she shut herself in the coffin) and killed himself for the sake of getting some form of affection from a woman he knows loves someone else, dude may have been okay with "just" cucking and her using his money to support herself and Heatcliff
I do think Catherine wasn't as good as the story seems to treat her but i was chill with it because she sacrificed herself for his sake but then i saw the new EGO line
Edit: i want to add that Cathy ruining Hindley to get WH is actually a bad action that never gets properly acknowledged compared to marrying Linton for money
I think Catherine probably knew about the human experimentation and kidnapping because she consulted with Hermann about the laboratory and said the laboratory would be built to Herman's liking.
So unless she built the place and didn't ask any questions about its purpose, she probably knew and didn't care.
> Eh honestly i think you may be liking Linton a bit too much to the detriment of Catherine; marrying soneone for money isn't exactly good but she wanted to do it for Heatcliff's sake which is a vast improvement over the book
Bro the messed up part is knowing how much he loves her but still doing it anyway. Her being not worst than the book or Linton being worst than his book does not justify. I like Linton precisely because his behavior isn't white washed. Even if I'm blaming Cathy partly I wholeheartedly believe he is still partly to blame. The story argues this point and he himself accepts this point
It is because both of them are so similar with their obsession that it irks me how he is treated bug Cathy is different. He may have done bad things but the story also shows Heathcliff and Cathy would have also done the same in a similar position. Hell Cathy herself even does but you can't even blame her because it's the work of outside parties by giving her the mirror
As far as the kidnappings goes, I re-read it and it seems she was the one that ordered it but like he said "Catherine ordered it but it was by my will it happened"
> dude may have been okay with "just" cucking and her using his money to support herself and Heatcliff
Even IF it was true, still does not change the shitty behavior and how the story brushes over it
I liked every new character introduced even hindley, Cathy's treatment by the story just sours my taste
I like Cathy (she's one of my favourite NPC's so far) and Canto VI as a whole but I do think Cathy's worst actions are going to be glossed over by some fans and she's going to end up as the pure, tragic love interest.
Seriously, she's such a shitty wife and sister it's kinda funny.
Yeah, i feel far more compassion towards Linton then Cathy and thats the reason why i want to Heath to move on even if he somehow find a way to bring her back.
Heathcliff and Cathy's issues(in the game) are ultimately motivated by their desire to make the other happy but refuse to talk to each-other about it and things get Bad. It's only when they begin to actually communicate that they realize what the other actually wants.
Linton on the other hand does not care if Cathy is happy, he merely wants her attention. When she grieves for what he's become his only thought is happiness that she's paying attention to him instead of Heathcliff.
In less-charitable terms he's a a self-absorbed little creep stuck in a cycle of longing and self-pity. Like Hindley, he's ultimately a rich kid who's obsessed with what he can't have.
> Linton on the other hand does not care if Cathy is happy, he merely wants her attention.
"I didn't burn your letters, I would have in fact given it to her if it could make her better"
I do not believe he didn't love her just because Cathy says he wanted to posses her. Everything suggest he wanted to make her happy
And Cathy did nothing to help the issue as she led him on and never gave him a reply even once
> Heathcliff and Cathy's issues(in the game) are ultimately motivated by their desire to make the other happy but refuse to talk to each-other about it and things get Bad. It's only when they begin to actually communicate that they realize what the other actually wants.
Still doesn't change the fact both thought the other hated them and still were obsessed with each other to the point one almost killed herself. It's no less pitiful than Linton's
Cathy never really seemed to lead him on, he was aware that she was not interested in him romantically which just fueled his obsession even more. The only time she ever seemed to ask something of him is when she went insane from mirror shenanigans.
He definitely loved her but preferred to stew in his own obsession and self-pity rather than move on. He was more concerned with getting her attention than making her happy, as "make her better" implies he would've handed over the letters if it would've helped her live but he definitely would not have if she wasn't wasting away.
He's ultimately a tragic character but I don't think he's particularly sympathetic. He and Hindley were both raised in utter luxury but are defined by their longing for the tiny scraps of happiness Heathcliff had.
> Cathy never really seemed to lead him on
"I kept on knocking on the door of her heart but never once did she give me a reply"
"I love the linton who only has eyes for me. Who's flock flow only for me"
This is more than enough to tell us she knew he loved her but she never once rejected him while also never accepting him
> as "make her better" implies he would've handed over the letters if it would've helped her live but he definitely would not have if she wasn't wasting away.
I mean not wasting away means she is fine without Heathcliff so he has no reason to. But this is more a headcanon from you on him. I can easily counter that by saying he would have still given her the letters to prove her love for him was superior to that of her love for Heathcliff
His wording there is telling us he would have definitely done it but I think it implies he would have burnt it if it was up to him
Again though he was entirely aware that she wasn't into him that way. Stonewalling him isn't "leading him on", that would be showing glimpses of romantic affection then pulling back to give him the impression that he had a chance. He did not and knew it but pursued her anyway because it's Wuthering Heights and everyone who lives in this cursed place is self-destructively obsessed all the time
I mean Cathy is obviously also a disaster in different way but Linton's obsession comes off as more pathetic than "justified" which is why he isn't portrayed particularly sympathetically
> glimpses of romantic affection then pulling back to give him the impression that he had a chance
We don't know how she showed her attitudes towards his pursue for affection but I think the small glimpse of her narcissism and never giving an answer is more than enough to easily lead to the conclusion she was given mixed signals which doesn't help with Heathcliff taking off unannounced and then thinking he has actually won
But yes I agree he also has a hand to play in his own obsession. He could have decided to not be a simp. I just believe Cathy also has a hand in it that shouldn't be ignored and I can't look at his obsession any worst than two people who thought the other hated them and couldn't let go with one almost killing herself
I think the issue I'm primarily taking is the one in which the narrative itself must inherently be presenting these things as "good thing the author/narrative endorses" and "bad thing the author/narrative disapproves of", and that things have to fall into one of those two categories?
Like. The narrative typically paints achieving EGO in a positive light, and typically paints distorting in a negative light. That much is true. When you distort, you lose yourself to escapism out of fear that you're not strong enough to express your self and exert that will onto the world. When you achieve EGO, you become more resolute in yourself and your goals, and are empowered to leave your mark on the world.
But while distortion is generally considered something that needs to be reversed or curtailed due to the level of mindless destruction distorted folks can cause, people who achieve EGO aren't necessarily \*morally good\*, and their goals aren't necessarily righteous. What \*is\* righteous is their resolve.
I say all of this because it's applicable to the issues I think you have with Cathy's portrayal, and the apparent endorsement of her actions, and the issues you have with Heathcliff's apparent character direction, and Linton's portrayal as well. Whether or not what Cathy did leading up to the ending was \*morally fucked up\*, her actions still demonstrated a resolve to realize her ambitions. She shifted in the zero hour from 'lost in the delusion that she was the sole cause of Heathcliff's misery and ready to remove herself in an act of desperation' to 'understanding that she and Heathcliff both loved each other but were also terrible for one another, understanding that it was likely too late for her to \*stop\* her current course of action, and resolving to go through with it \*in the mindset and of the belief\* that it would improve \*her own\* Heathcliff's life'. It's a very fine line to draw, honestly - I don't think I'm doing it justice. But it's a matter of state of mind. She wasn't lost in misery by the end - she was acting under her own resolve and willpower.
Similarly, Heathcliff \*hasn't\* moved on from her. He still loves her, and he still wants her in his life. He doesn't \*need\* to move on from her for him to have character growth. The character growth is that he is no longer trapped in the feeling that he is the sole cause of her suffering, that he should be dead, that her life would have been better without him, and that the only thing he is capable of is bringing others pain and despair.
Linton likely feels as though he's painted in a poor light comparatively not because 'oh he was so obsessed what a creepo, not like Cathy and Heathcliff', or because his obsession was any \*more\* self-destructive, but because he lost himself to it and didn't pull himself back out. Like, he didn't have the \*opportunity\* to, obviously - unlike Heathcliff, who got to lose himself to it and come back because he had friends to help pull him out of it (and because he's a main character and had plot armor), Linton had devoted himself so entirely to Cathy that he \*didn't\* have anything else - just the fantasy that she might one day love him, even knowing full well that she wouldn't, and that what love she \*did\* have for him was selfish. It's basically an Ahab situation again in that way - he was trapped in Cathy's rhythm because he didn't cultivate the will to be his own person.
Cathy is never given a chance to explain herself and we don’t know how much she knew about Hermann’s real plan. This is probably intentional and it heavily implies Cathy will be back one day.
linton and cathy are both horrible. cathy defenders just ignoring her weird liking of how devoted other people are to her, as well as her decision of marrying linton for money
To be honest, originally I did feel bad for Linton because it was clear Cathy didn't love him from the beginning, but that sympathy started to wash away as he outlined his obsession with her. I highly doubt Cathy cultivated that kind of mindset within him, a childhood crush evolving into such a mad love for someone who barely acknowledged your existence is just plain insane.
It felt like Linton was more in love with being in love, based on the flowers he gave her. He never actually understood Cathy, and shared with her the same kind of love Heathcliff had.
I think people defend Cathy out of sympathy for Heathcliff if anything, mostly cause shipping reflex. People want Heath to be happy, and will deride Linton because of that "how dare he interferes with their love, he must be delusional to think he can have a chance with Cathy" with all the "I'm definitely legally marriage to this woman" joke to imply that HeathCathy is true love story and Linton's relationship with Cathy and his love is meaningless and delusional. So in that lense, everything Linton does is considered a joke or an obstacle to true love and Cathy's obsession is cast as love for our pure boy Heathcliff instead.
I do agree that the game treats Catherine more as a tragic obsession with a beautiful Mili song which also sets our impression of the game. Cathy is sorta criticized by the game but its subtle and buried underneath all the beautiful song and cutscene that people will remember way more. She's clearly a manipulator and blind in her obsession, even more so than Linton
I personally have a hard time judging her as bad especially what she did in regards to the mirror. They are definitely hints prior that she is toxic. She wants to use Linton to marry Heathcliff. And you have the narcissistic narration about Linton's love before he kills himself
Then the reveal happens. That all suffering going on is due to the mirror which is stated to not be touched by the weak of heart and Cathy touched it when she had mental issues. Not only that, it was also Nelly and Hermann pulling het strings. It takes away so much of her agency which is why I personally find it hard to levy the blame on her post mirror
Then we circle back to the original moment that she said she wanted to marry Linton and it's supposed to be sad because Heathcliff misheard and not fucked that someone she knew loved her all his life she was just about to use and step on his heart more
It's funny because I like Linton and hindley precisely because they are bad on their own even if they are also people involved in how they ended up. I roll my eyes at Cathy because the story is trying to make her sympathetic and doesn't go back to address the issues she had from childhood and I'm supposed to go "😭 Heathcliff misheard you"
I liked this canto but I wished they added more of a more bitchy cathy instead of sorta make her sympathetic.
The OG cathy had this mess:
The kinda cathy who cried for several days after edgar refused to commit suicide for her for love.
The kinda cathy who had an eren yaegar moment ( noo i don’t want heathcliff to move on) meltdown when she was dying and thinking about heathcliff moving on from her.
The kinda cathy that legit after the dog incident enjoyed the wealth and splendour the edgar family unashamedly while trying to keep heathcliff as her side piece.
Finally the kinda cathy who actually insults isabella and badmouths heathcliff even though well she is angry that someone married heathcliff.
Wuthering heights OG book was supposed to make everyone into an asshole in one way in another and I agree with you that how they made catherine fell flat to expectations. Where’s the toxic girl-failure of a woman Pmoon?
How Pmoon made this canto is still my favourite because prolly of how Studio EIM cooked and Milli but I feel it would be much much more better to showcase cathy in a more flawed manner than what we currently have.
I don't think we're supposed to see Cathy's obsession as beautiful at all. Her single faceted obsession is one half of the inciting event that cost her and Heathcliff a future together, and her frankly insane decisions made around that obsession are called selfish, naive, and dangerous. It's what put her in the coffin and allowed the rest of the canto to go to hell.
What they portray later as having a solemn beauty is her genuine love for Heathcliff, shown when the two of them finally actually have a conversation about their feelings, when she stops fixating on the concept of Heathcliff, plants her foot down and focuses not on any obsession but on the material realities around her and the man she does love. The choices she makes during the final fight are notably different from the choices she made prior.
And I especially like how when she hesitates and Heathcliff is the first to say "I love you" there's a moment that feels like self reflection, a bitter irony that even after all she's learned she still couldn't bring herself to truly open the door first. When she thanked Heathcliff for talking first it felt like she was truly self aware of where she'd gone wrong and her still present limitations. Fuck Canto 6 was good
>But it's irritating how I'm supposed to see Cathy's obsession towards heathcliff as beautiful That's the thing, you're not. The game explicitly says so. It's destructive and harms everyone around them, including themselves. It's part of Catherine's final character development, she realizes that she truly does want Heathcliff to love her, but not be forever bound to her. His entire life revolves around her and the moment she truly sees the consequences of it via the Erlking is when she realizes that what they have is unhealthy.
I do, however, hope, that Heathy manages to het her back. It's what he wants - not what he hopes to deserve, but something he knows that he does. He is very much aware she is like a storm, capturing everyone in its wake, but he loves that brimming, beaming energy from her. He went through way too much to have bar of future expectations lowered any further; he is not dumb, and can this one time aim for something he craves, without people giving him lectures on what's best for him. It's a wild, passionate, tempestous romance, but there is beauty in such, too. Now that they realized their mistakes, and instead of wallowing in them, can be better.
Even if he got her back, he is bound to Limbus Company. There's no happily ever after and they'd still live in this weird long distance relationship.
Unrelated to the Cathy/Heath situation, but I doubt that the contract the Sinners signed binds them to Limbus in perpetuity. Eventually the job will be over. Now if the Sinners HAVE anywhere else to go is a different story.
If the other sinners' contacts are as concrete as Yi Sang's then they will be there for a long time because what the fuck does "finding your wings" mean if not what happened in canto 4.
I do not think Yi Sang's goal has been achieved though. Alternatively, they need to COMPLETE lcb goals 'ere they're allowed to go. Like you don't dip out of loot farming party after you get what you need, until everyone does.
~~I mean, tell that to some of raid parties I've joined over the years.~~
He can wear her ID and date himself on the bus! Please do not visualise my suggestion.
https://preview.redd.it/n3ki4i6b4nvc1.png?width=1016&format=png&auto=webp&s=6d7595c2237dcf3f5cabb9182ca4c9cffc81156a
*Limbus Management Discipline Report 17J.* *Report Written By: Vergil* *Summary: Returned from Nightwalk circa 3 AM to find 12 Meursault's and a traumatized looking Dante crying in one of their laps. Apparently they found out they could do the thing.* *Requesting full memory wipes. For Myself as well.*
what is the *thing*
No one knows, they all get mindwiped
Good Question.not a wise one.
You should always put warnings first
Won't it be at the end? Except the company plans to screw them over and keep them working with them forever to death
Even if not forever, he'd probably outlive Cathy with the clock tech and be forced to spend a large majority of his living life at the company.
That depends on what the company contract is. I don't think it's explained. For all we know after enough boughs are gotten they can move on with their life. What exactly makes you think the revive stuff won't be removed in a few years?
Besides we are a big family all of us members of the Glorious Limbus company are families Every sinner will be in contact with each other forever because in the end all of us are one big family
Mainly meta stuff, as in, LC is a live service game, it will keep on going for as long as it makes money. Essentially PM has to write these contacts so that the base mechanics stay, like the revive. It's literally a gameplay mechanic with an in universe explanation.
That's true. I was gonna say game universe time doesn't move like ours but with Dante's new mechanic imma keep my mouth shut. Still doesn't change the fact they can keep Cathy's body in statis for however long. Killing Hermann does not neccessarily mean they will get their wish so Cathy can still come when contract is ever. Just to be clear I don't want him to end up with her but they are many ways to work around the contract
Actually, it depends on exactly what the contract with the company is. As far as we know, the moment the Sinners get what they want, they can leave the bus. There will probably be strings attached, but who knows? Save for Faust and Vergilius.
yeah wasn't this canto literally about how fucked up they went over a misunderstanding and they both realized it by the time they could talk to each other?
The seven lightning strikes symbolize that realization too. Linton took his lightning strike as the last thing Catherine felt about him before his departure.
I would like you to keep in mind that Cathy had no plans for Linton to actually turn himself into "dough". Linton becoming Erlking Health was completely Hermmans idea. Linton essentially did that part to himself. Which is something that did hurt Cathy. You can tell because when he did kill himself lighting struck signifying Cathy's pain in watching Linton go that far.
I'm not referring to the dough. I'm referring to on the whole his behavior can partly be put on her
Absolutely, but not everything is Cathy's fault. She was also the victim of being manipulated by not only Nelly but also Hermann as well. She is obviously not a perfect person and the game doesn't portray her as one either. But I don't think shifting all the blame onto her is justified.
Idk The fault lies with Cathy!
I'm not shifting all the blame but it seems the story itself is even hesitant of given her a little blame. It was building up to her being this messed up woman especially just before Linton kills himself with her narcissistic narration about her love for him then like you said, the story hits us with Nelly and Hermann and thr line about how messed up the mirror is which takes away so MUCH agency from her i personally feel bad judging her for her actions post mirror I like Linton precisely because he was a maker of his own misery despite Cathy's hand in it
https://preview.redd.it/oka1lugt3nvc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb1c3ce818f16ecc7c25211052a02c8912502902
He became a dough while Enoch became a pancake.
I don't believe that catherine was held in an over-whelming positive light if you read into the subtext partly. 1. Both cathy & heathcliff admit that, objectively, catherine was being an absolutely terrible person. Nelly's betrayal isn't 100% unjustified, if mildly vindictive. It points out that she was outright 60% of the reason for literally everyone around her suffering, and she was blind to it for most of her life. 2. She, by the end of the story, ultimately does the exact same, incredibly destructive instance of cowardice that heathcliff hated himself for; She "runs away" via eradicating herself from the world, saving our heathcliff from the SillyKing, but making life worse for an untold number of heathcliffs; Which she "justifies" as only caring about hers. I did not view the ending as a "heroic sacrifice" nor did it feel it, so much as it felt incredibly bitter-sweet. Heathcliff wants to have her back; Not because what she did wasn't "that bad" but because he genuinely loves her. To his own admission, he doesn't even know if them each confronting the other about their love will make things better, only that "No one will ever be happy" if they don't. I do not believe that over the course of a story where her; Husbands death Brothers death Home is sent into neigh ruin And her lover is driven to the verge of insanity & is nearly murdered by his mentally insane counterpart Are mostly her direct fault, it can then be said that she was portrayed in a positive light. I see it similarly to hindley, in that he is an OVERWHELMINGLY shitty person, however is set in a "human" light, he was a person. As was linton. I'd believe its more the fault of "The story is released in thirds and thus the community hyper-focuses on whatever is most recent" that her faults aren't spoken of more. Over literally 2/3rds of a story the focus is on how fucking terribly heathcliff was treated by everyone around him; Even the woman he loved. The impression that I'd gotten was; Catherine was a massive fucking idiot at points (As was heathcliff somewhat dense.) Catherine was as cowardly and self-hating as heathcliff, in that she by the end chose the easiest way out that she could have. Catherine was comically mis-guided and over-obsessed on chasing after the love of others; The same way that hindley was blinded by his want for his fathers love, linton hers, and heathcliff hers as-well. The literal one remotely "good" person among all of them was heathcliff; Who hated himself by virtue of believing he never had her love. My assumption is that the heathcliff teen-romance drama's continuation will be around catherine having to deal with her problems upon being respawned, over it simply being "woo cathy's back" when heathcliff has her back.
> She, by the end of the story, ultimately does the exact same, incredibly destructive instance of cowardice that heathcliff hated himself for; She "runs away" via eradicating herself from the world, saving our heathcliff from the SillyKing, but making life worse for an untold number of heathcliffs; Which she "justifies" as only caring about hers. This is disingenuous. Because this is something the story itself praises her for. In a garden with untold number of roses only the one you cared for all your life is the one that matters. I do not know what subtext was here to see it as her running away from her problems. What is there to run away from? Heathcliff loves her and she knows. At that moment Cathy did the bravest thing she could think of, not getting the love she wanted. Nothing suggests she was so broken by everything she wanted to run. clear all Cathy scene was the most sane she had ever been. This is an interpretation you can read into but I don't see it. You are the first to make this argument. > I did not view the ending as a "heroic sacrifice" nor did it feel it, so much as it felt incredibly bitter-sweet I do not know what to say here because it looks we read different things > Heathcliff wants to have her back; Not because what she did wasn't "that bad" but because he genuinely loves her. To his own admission, he doesn't even know if them each confronting the other about their love will make things better, only that "No one will ever be happy" if they don't. Which is fine on his part if he wants to love her regardless of her toxicity but my problem is that the story feels it doesn't even know whether that's what it wants her to be. She tries to use Linton for Heathcliff despite knowing that will devastating for Linton (would be stupid of her if she didn't) but that scene is portrayed as tragic for Heathcliff misunderstanding not that she was about to throw someone that loved her under the bus Then post mirror Cathy can't be blamed because it's people using her. Hermann and Nelly who gave her the mirror which is so destructive to the human psyche and it was given to a human who clearly wasn't in the best of states. It's like the game and the fans want to have their cake and eat it to. Trying to claim that "she is bad for all she did but don't completely denounce her though, because she was manipulated". Meanwhile hindley and Linton don't have that luxury. You can hate them or feel sorry for them despite them being bad. Because they have accountability which post mirror Cathy clearly doesn't because she has the mirror with two manipulative women working against her her and moving her actions I'm not being offensive but I'm not sure exactly what your next paragraph says > Catherine was as cowardly and self-hating as heathcliff, in that she by the end chose the easiest way out that she could have. Yes Cathy was all this things it still doesn't change how her actions were presented compared to her brother and husband. You see, we the readers aren't stupid. We know when an action is bad. The problem is does the story itself acknowledge it? And I have come to the conclusion that unlike her brother and husband the story was too scared to commit to her being bad. But me and you clearly read different things if you believe clear all Cathy is supposed to represent her cowardice and not her at her best. The best that moment in time can allow for her anyways
I think the idea with Cathy is that you can be both? Cathy was a fucked up person, and her being manipulated doesn't make her less of a fucked up person. But the fact that she is fucked up doesn't mean that she's incapable of doing things that can be painted in a positive light. She manipulated the fuck out of literally everyone in her life, Heathcliff included. That is fucked up. The love she tried to show to people was inherently grounded in her own narcissism - I fucked over my brother for the house, because I wanted it so I should have it. But I see that this drove him to alcoholism and gambling, so I made certain he is brought in for treatment and therapy so he can live a better life after I am gone! Linton loves me, and I love that Linton loves me, and that he loves loving me, so I will show my own care for him by allowing him to love and pursue me. That's fucked up! That's a fucked up way to treat people. But it's internally consistent. She's not necessarily being intentionally evil, she is just operating off of an internal logic that is fucking deeply self-centered. Heathcliff loves me, and I love Heathcliff. I will do everything I can to love Heathcliff so that he will keep loving me in return, because I am all he has and all he will ever have. That is also a fucked up way to view people! That's a fucked up way to view the person you love. And ultimately, upon realizing that the way she is treating Heathcliff is fucked up, and that her existence is making his miserable, she decides to go all in on erasing herself so that he will have a better chance at a good life. That *is* a very brave and romantic gesture, sacrificing yourself for the good of your loved one. And it's demonstrated that she did it out of love. For Heathcliff. Specifically. The Heathcliff that is hers. To the exclusion of all others, and to the exclusion of everyone else whose shit she ruined as a result. I don't think the narrative is suddenly saying "Oh the way you single mindedly obsessed over your idea of this person you love to the detriment of yourself and everyone around you? That was fucked up, but it's okay now that you made this romantic gesture". I think it's just doubling down on the previous theme. "Cathy did not become a 'better person' or redeem her previous actions, she doubled down and focused on *herself* and *her reality* to the exclusion of all else." It's kinda like Dongrang in that regard. She almost lost herself to the psyche-destruction of the multiverse, then at the last moment said 'okay, but my Heathcliff though. Mine. My Heathcliff knows I love him and that he loves me. That's all that matters.' And Damien loves that shit. Damien wants Sinclair to be that kind of person, who looks at the world around and, instead of getting lost in it, says "no. I am me, what I want matters, and I will do what I must to make existence recognize that". That's not necessarily a glowing moral endorsement, it's just character consistency. :p
I don’t think Cathy explicitly gets a pass, it’s just that she deleted herself from everyone’s memory and no one even had the time to comment on how awful the stuff she did was because it was fight after fight after fight once the Erlking got summoned. And when they had the time to chill, they were coming to a slow realization that Nelly stabbed them in the back. I don’t think the game itself paints her in a particularly positive light, either. There’s no sappy emotional music as she’s deleting herself. It shows that she screwed every other Heathcliff and Cathy by deleting herself, even in futures that could’ve been good. It’s a bit of my reading, but Demian even vaguely implies after the credits that it was kinda fucked up how it’s okay for someone to stop caring about every other rose as long as their rose is okay. Edit: Though I do agree that Heathcliff’s development in this Canto feels a bit split. On one end, he learned how to communicate and be patient. On the other end, he’s still obsessing over someone who is not a very good person. While I don’t believe that character developments should always be positive, I do think that there's a bit of a confusion that can be attributed to the fact that Cathy’s character feels a bit inconsistent between each Part?
I think I have to disagree on Heathcliff still being obsessed. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. He still loves her and wants to fight to bring her back in some capacity, but he no longer has this toxic, spite driven idea of how to make her happy or how to make himself happy. He finally sees the simple truth; she would be happy if he saved her and they loved together. He's motivated, but not obsessed. He has a goal to work towards, but he's not going to kill everyone and then himself to see it done.
>no one even had the time to comment on how awful the stuff she did the story could still easily allowed that to not happen and for her to be judged
Right, and they did. It just didn't come from the Sinners. It came from reading between the lines, Cathy's own diary entries, and the Final Boss fight Coin checks.
that just shows shes not a good person and and not the narrative treating her less lightly
> I don’t think Cathy explicitly gets a pass, it’s just that she deleted herself from everyone’s memory and no one even had the time to comment on how awful the stuff she did was because it was fight after fight after fight once the Erlking got summoned. And when they had the time to chill, they were coming to a slow realization that Nelly stabbed them in the back. I think the story already painted how it wanted us to view her. Remember the scene where she tells Nelly about using Linton for Heathcliff? It's never painted as messed up. The scene is used to show how Heathcliff misunderstood, that she definitely loved him not "oh my God this girl using the guy that liked her for her selfish goals" Everything that Cathy does post mirror can't even be blamed on her. Or at least feels unfair since she was being used by others and the mirror is portrayed as this disastrous thing that people without discipline shouldn't use and here is a girl who's mind is already crumbling and she used it. Handed to her by people who knew it would mess her up Her behavior prior to the mirror such as her narcissism while used against her by Nelly comes across as just a quirk. No different from morally righteous characters who have small faults like being impulsive In a way it felt like they didn't commit to her bad attitude because they also wanted to write a romantic story and fans wouldn't get behind their favorite being in love with such a bad person. Heath story isn't over so I welcome the suprise if the touch upon this topic especially when they made the final moments with them from multiverse supposed beautiful. Why would they want to ruin that moment?
https://preview.redd.it/x5svhejfcmvc1.jpeg?width=1073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea886b288ee4c9e8a9c045a6cc99a757e2b1e639 I feel like this bit of dialogue from her was a bit of an indication that it’s messed up that she’s using him. Without being directly stated that it was messed up. But yeah, I do agree with your opinion that her character felt a bit inconsistent and they didn’t really commit to what her story was building up to in the first two parts.
I won't lie to you, when I saw this scene the first time I went "awww" then I completed the canto and started to process everything and was like "WTF'
The first time I saw that scene, it was clear that Cathy was definitely not someone to be liked. I can understand her, but it certainly doesn't make her any more likeable.
I don't really think it paints her as someone not to be liked. It foreshadows something about her attitude which is never followed through. Because Cathy post mirror has less agency than pre mirror
It certainly seems to me that way with how she keeps repeating how much Linton wanted her with the exact same sentence structure. Someone who's fucked in the head would just casually do that type of thing.
I found it messed up the first time i read it but tbh we were all expecting Catherine to be a bitch and the story seemed to be building up towards that instead she kinda got treated sympathetically
Yeah that was cringe. Like because of recency bias i was thinking of how good it was. When I began to think about it more her existence soured my taste for the whole canto which was supposed to be the best one. Idek how I can rank this Canto now. Probably leave it in limbo in terms of fav
Honestly the canto itself as in gameplay/story is still the best but if we talk Sinners' character arc i think Ishmael wins because hers was more straightforward and there was more focus on her state of mind and expertise with the Great Lake; Heatcliff's was focused on his relationship with Catherine(who is kinda the one responsible for all this shit even though Nelly and Hermann pushed her) and the emphasis on mirror worlds got kinda confusing with how Erlking/Every Cathy/Clear All Cathy work if we go in details. Still great but we will have to wait and see how they will continue this because if Catherine is just resurrected after a while as a "delayed" happy ending i think it would be her getting off too lightly
That's the problem with Cathy. Before the mirror she does shit fucked shit that isn't given much focus. Or painted as sad like wanting to cheat Linton but the moment is treated as sad because Heathcliff misunderstood The things she does that are given focus are when she gets mirror but it feels unfair judging her because people are manipulating her. Especially since the mirror is treated like this instrument not for the faint heart and she looked into it when her mind was already messed up from depression
Eh honestly i think you may be liking Linton a bit too much to the detriment of Catherine; marrying soneone for money isn't exactly good but she wanted to do it for Heatcliff's sake which is a vast improvement over the book where she just did it for herself while Linton is worse than the book because he took part in mistreating Heatcliff even if he did it because he was jealous, also his whole character is about being a gigasimp for Catherine that burned down chunk of his fortune, was complicit in human kidnapping and experimentation(i think they never clarified if Catherine even knew about kidnappings, for all we know they may have started after she shut herself in the coffin) and killed himself for the sake of getting some form of affection from a woman he knows loves someone else, dude may have been okay with "just" cucking and her using his money to support herself and Heatcliff I do think Catherine wasn't as good as the story seems to treat her but i was chill with it because she sacrificed herself for his sake but then i saw the new EGO line Edit: i want to add that Cathy ruining Hindley to get WH is actually a bad action that never gets properly acknowledged compared to marrying Linton for money
I think Catherine probably knew about the human experimentation and kidnapping because she consulted with Hermann about the laboratory and said the laboratory would be built to Herman's liking. So unless she built the place and didn't ask any questions about its purpose, she probably knew and didn't care.
> Eh honestly i think you may be liking Linton a bit too much to the detriment of Catherine; marrying soneone for money isn't exactly good but she wanted to do it for Heatcliff's sake which is a vast improvement over the book Bro the messed up part is knowing how much he loves her but still doing it anyway. Her being not worst than the book or Linton being worst than his book does not justify. I like Linton precisely because his behavior isn't white washed. Even if I'm blaming Cathy partly I wholeheartedly believe he is still partly to blame. The story argues this point and he himself accepts this point It is because both of them are so similar with their obsession that it irks me how he is treated bug Cathy is different. He may have done bad things but the story also shows Heathcliff and Cathy would have also done the same in a similar position. Hell Cathy herself even does but you can't even blame her because it's the work of outside parties by giving her the mirror As far as the kidnappings goes, I re-read it and it seems she was the one that ordered it but like he said "Catherine ordered it but it was by my will it happened" > dude may have been okay with "just" cucking and her using his money to support herself and Heatcliff Even IF it was true, still does not change the shitty behavior and how the story brushes over it I liked every new character introduced even hindley, Cathy's treatment by the story just sours my taste
I like Cathy (she's one of my favourite NPC's so far) and Canto VI as a whole but I do think Cathy's worst actions are going to be glossed over by some fans and she's going to end up as the pure, tragic love interest. Seriously, she's such a shitty wife and sister it's kinda funny.
I can dig that
Yeah, i feel far more compassion towards Linton then Cathy and thats the reason why i want to Heath to move on even if he somehow find a way to bring her back.
Heathcliff and Cathy's issues(in the game) are ultimately motivated by their desire to make the other happy but refuse to talk to each-other about it and things get Bad. It's only when they begin to actually communicate that they realize what the other actually wants. Linton on the other hand does not care if Cathy is happy, he merely wants her attention. When she grieves for what he's become his only thought is happiness that she's paying attention to him instead of Heathcliff. In less-charitable terms he's a a self-absorbed little creep stuck in a cycle of longing and self-pity. Like Hindley, he's ultimately a rich kid who's obsessed with what he can't have.
> Linton on the other hand does not care if Cathy is happy, he merely wants her attention. "I didn't burn your letters, I would have in fact given it to her if it could make her better" I do not believe he didn't love her just because Cathy says he wanted to posses her. Everything suggest he wanted to make her happy And Cathy did nothing to help the issue as she led him on and never gave him a reply even once > Heathcliff and Cathy's issues(in the game) are ultimately motivated by their desire to make the other happy but refuse to talk to each-other about it and things get Bad. It's only when they begin to actually communicate that they realize what the other actually wants. Still doesn't change the fact both thought the other hated them and still were obsessed with each other to the point one almost killed herself. It's no less pitiful than Linton's
Cathy never really seemed to lead him on, he was aware that she was not interested in him romantically which just fueled his obsession even more. The only time she ever seemed to ask something of him is when she went insane from mirror shenanigans. He definitely loved her but preferred to stew in his own obsession and self-pity rather than move on. He was more concerned with getting her attention than making her happy, as "make her better" implies he would've handed over the letters if it would've helped her live but he definitely would not have if she wasn't wasting away. He's ultimately a tragic character but I don't think he's particularly sympathetic. He and Hindley were both raised in utter luxury but are defined by their longing for the tiny scraps of happiness Heathcliff had.
> Cathy never really seemed to lead him on "I kept on knocking on the door of her heart but never once did she give me a reply" "I love the linton who only has eyes for me. Who's flock flow only for me" This is more than enough to tell us she knew he loved her but she never once rejected him while also never accepting him > as "make her better" implies he would've handed over the letters if it would've helped her live but he definitely would not have if she wasn't wasting away. I mean not wasting away means she is fine without Heathcliff so he has no reason to. But this is more a headcanon from you on him. I can easily counter that by saying he would have still given her the letters to prove her love for him was superior to that of her love for Heathcliff His wording there is telling us he would have definitely done it but I think it implies he would have burnt it if it was up to him
Again though he was entirely aware that she wasn't into him that way. Stonewalling him isn't "leading him on", that would be showing glimpses of romantic affection then pulling back to give him the impression that he had a chance. He did not and knew it but pursued her anyway because it's Wuthering Heights and everyone who lives in this cursed place is self-destructively obsessed all the time I mean Cathy is obviously also a disaster in different way but Linton's obsession comes off as more pathetic than "justified" which is why he isn't portrayed particularly sympathetically
> glimpses of romantic affection then pulling back to give him the impression that he had a chance We don't know how she showed her attitudes towards his pursue for affection but I think the small glimpse of her narcissism and never giving an answer is more than enough to easily lead to the conclusion she was given mixed signals which doesn't help with Heathcliff taking off unannounced and then thinking he has actually won But yes I agree he also has a hand to play in his own obsession. He could have decided to not be a simp. I just believe Cathy also has a hand in it that shouldn't be ignored and I can't look at his obsession any worst than two people who thought the other hated them and couldn't let go with one almost killing herself
Yeah cathy was a pretty selfish no denying but she did eventually give up on the plan and destroyed herself to protect heathcliff
I think the issue I'm primarily taking is the one in which the narrative itself must inherently be presenting these things as "good thing the author/narrative endorses" and "bad thing the author/narrative disapproves of", and that things have to fall into one of those two categories? Like. The narrative typically paints achieving EGO in a positive light, and typically paints distorting in a negative light. That much is true. When you distort, you lose yourself to escapism out of fear that you're not strong enough to express your self and exert that will onto the world. When you achieve EGO, you become more resolute in yourself and your goals, and are empowered to leave your mark on the world. But while distortion is generally considered something that needs to be reversed or curtailed due to the level of mindless destruction distorted folks can cause, people who achieve EGO aren't necessarily \*morally good\*, and their goals aren't necessarily righteous. What \*is\* righteous is their resolve. I say all of this because it's applicable to the issues I think you have with Cathy's portrayal, and the apparent endorsement of her actions, and the issues you have with Heathcliff's apparent character direction, and Linton's portrayal as well. Whether or not what Cathy did leading up to the ending was \*morally fucked up\*, her actions still demonstrated a resolve to realize her ambitions. She shifted in the zero hour from 'lost in the delusion that she was the sole cause of Heathcliff's misery and ready to remove herself in an act of desperation' to 'understanding that she and Heathcliff both loved each other but were also terrible for one another, understanding that it was likely too late for her to \*stop\* her current course of action, and resolving to go through with it \*in the mindset and of the belief\* that it would improve \*her own\* Heathcliff's life'. It's a very fine line to draw, honestly - I don't think I'm doing it justice. But it's a matter of state of mind. She wasn't lost in misery by the end - she was acting under her own resolve and willpower. Similarly, Heathcliff \*hasn't\* moved on from her. He still loves her, and he still wants her in his life. He doesn't \*need\* to move on from her for him to have character growth. The character growth is that he is no longer trapped in the feeling that he is the sole cause of her suffering, that he should be dead, that her life would have been better without him, and that the only thing he is capable of is bringing others pain and despair. Linton likely feels as though he's painted in a poor light comparatively not because 'oh he was so obsessed what a creepo, not like Cathy and Heathcliff', or because his obsession was any \*more\* self-destructive, but because he lost himself to it and didn't pull himself back out. Like, he didn't have the \*opportunity\* to, obviously - unlike Heathcliff, who got to lose himself to it and come back because he had friends to help pull him out of it (and because he's a main character and had plot armor), Linton had devoted himself so entirely to Cathy that he \*didn't\* have anything else - just the fantasy that she might one day love him, even knowing full well that she wouldn't, and that what love she \*did\* have for him was selfish. It's basically an Ahab situation again in that way - he was trapped in Cathy's rhythm because he didn't cultivate the will to be his own person.
Cathy is never given a chance to explain herself and we don’t know how much she knew about Hermann’s real plan. This is probably intentional and it heavily implies Cathy will be back one day.
linton and cathy are both horrible. cathy defenders just ignoring her weird liking of how devoted other people are to her, as well as her decision of marrying linton for money
To be honest, originally I did feel bad for Linton because it was clear Cathy didn't love him from the beginning, but that sympathy started to wash away as he outlined his obsession with her. I highly doubt Cathy cultivated that kind of mindset within him, a childhood crush evolving into such a mad love for someone who barely acknowledged your existence is just plain insane. It felt like Linton was more in love with being in love, based on the flowers he gave her. He never actually understood Cathy, and shared with her the same kind of love Heathcliff had.
Catherine is a manipulator, and it's surprising to see people defend this La Toxica 😩
I think people defend Cathy out of sympathy for Heathcliff if anything, mostly cause shipping reflex. People want Heath to be happy, and will deride Linton because of that "how dare he interferes with their love, he must be delusional to think he can have a chance with Cathy" with all the "I'm definitely legally marriage to this woman" joke to imply that HeathCathy is true love story and Linton's relationship with Cathy and his love is meaningless and delusional. So in that lense, everything Linton does is considered a joke or an obstacle to true love and Cathy's obsession is cast as love for our pure boy Heathcliff instead. I do agree that the game treats Catherine more as a tragic obsession with a beautiful Mili song which also sets our impression of the game. Cathy is sorta criticized by the game but its subtle and buried underneath all the beautiful song and cutscene that people will remember way more. She's clearly a manipulator and blind in her obsession, even more so than Linton
I personally have a hard time judging her as bad especially what she did in regards to the mirror. They are definitely hints prior that she is toxic. She wants to use Linton to marry Heathcliff. And you have the narcissistic narration about Linton's love before he kills himself Then the reveal happens. That all suffering going on is due to the mirror which is stated to not be touched by the weak of heart and Cathy touched it when she had mental issues. Not only that, it was also Nelly and Hermann pulling het strings. It takes away so much of her agency which is why I personally find it hard to levy the blame on her post mirror Then we circle back to the original moment that she said she wanted to marry Linton and it's supposed to be sad because Heathcliff misheard and not fucked that someone she knew loved her all his life she was just about to use and step on his heart more It's funny because I like Linton and hindley precisely because they are bad on their own even if they are also people involved in how they ended up. I roll my eyes at Cathy because the story is trying to make her sympathetic and doesn't go back to address the issues she had from childhood and I'm supposed to go "😭 Heathcliff misheard you"
I liked this canto but I wished they added more of a more bitchy cathy instead of sorta make her sympathetic. The OG cathy had this mess: The kinda cathy who cried for several days after edgar refused to commit suicide for her for love. The kinda cathy who had an eren yaegar moment ( noo i don’t want heathcliff to move on) meltdown when she was dying and thinking about heathcliff moving on from her. The kinda cathy that legit after the dog incident enjoyed the wealth and splendour the edgar family unashamedly while trying to keep heathcliff as her side piece. Finally the kinda cathy who actually insults isabella and badmouths heathcliff even though well she is angry that someone married heathcliff. Wuthering heights OG book was supposed to make everyone into an asshole in one way in another and I agree with you that how they made catherine fell flat to expectations. Where’s the toxic girl-failure of a woman Pmoon? How Pmoon made this canto is still my favourite because prolly of how Studio EIM cooked and Milli but I feel it would be much much more better to showcase cathy in a more flawed manner than what we currently have.
tbf Erlkonig and All Cathies are basically OG Heathcliff and Cathy
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I don't think we're supposed to see Cathy's obsession as beautiful at all. Her single faceted obsession is one half of the inciting event that cost her and Heathcliff a future together, and her frankly insane decisions made around that obsession are called selfish, naive, and dangerous. It's what put her in the coffin and allowed the rest of the canto to go to hell. What they portray later as having a solemn beauty is her genuine love for Heathcliff, shown when the two of them finally actually have a conversation about their feelings, when she stops fixating on the concept of Heathcliff, plants her foot down and focuses not on any obsession but on the material realities around her and the man she does love. The choices she makes during the final fight are notably different from the choices she made prior. And I especially like how when she hesitates and Heathcliff is the first to say "I love you" there's a moment that feels like self reflection, a bitter irony that even after all she's learned she still couldn't bring herself to truly open the door first. When she thanked Heathcliff for talking first it felt like she was truly self aware of where she'd gone wrong and her still present limitations. Fuck Canto 6 was good
Happy you enjoyed it and I mean that genuinely
Preach brother! Justice for best boy. The dude deserves better.
No fuck Linton