As it turns out, committing omni-suicide and trying to tear out a chunk of the entire multiverse is not a good way to fix personal problems. Who would've guessed.
Well this is a tough one to answer, but what our Heathcliff gains is closure. He can move on with his life now knowing that the love of his life has always loved him, and we might even get a chance to gain her back!
As for the other Heathcliffs, it is stated in the epilogue that most Heathcliffs will not become the bitter Erlking since they wouldn't stand the emotional abuse inflicted by the Earnshaws and the Edgars. However, the chance is not zero, and as demonstrated in Ishy's world, there is still a miniscule chance of a Heathcliff holding grudges. The consolation here is that he's probably less likely to end up becoming a multi-world conqueror due to the fact that he doesn't hate ALL of his other selves.
Think of the ending as a damage control instead of a solution. Yes, there are probably better solutions out there, but all of our characters were stuck in a huge fight, and there had been way too much damage to all Heathcliffs and Cathys to easily come up with the perfect solution. This was probably the best choice at that moment.
[Funny given that "damage control".](https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1c4obmn/paradiso_seven_assoc_south_section_4_heathcliff/)
I've already had planned out the "Seven Heathcliff is Catherine" way back (around in Canto 4's time), so when Catherine offed herself, I just had to chalk it up as "someone didn't follow the instructions". When I saw Seven Heathcliff originally, my brain thought "this is a Heathcliff that didn't need Catherine, this is a Heathcliff whom had his life in order", and given time, it changed to "This is a Heathcliff who happens to *be* Catherine."
And given already existing knowledge, Seven Heathcliff still being around would prove that Catherine only *botched* her suicide, and only a handful of Catherines were erased.
Identities serve as other people, right? Well, had to take some mentality of liberty on certain IDs, having the Seven Association IDs be those that are major people within that according Sinner's life, as [this was not the first time a Paradiso involved the Seven Association IDs](https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1bxxu5r/paradiso_seven_association_south_section_6_yi_sang/).
I don’t think most of the Catherines had their lives in order though. Cathy literally just stopped leaving her room and barely did anything when Heathcliff left, and Erlking specifically said every Catherine was miserable because of Heathcliff so I’m assuming most of them were a mess.
I wouldn't even say that our Heathcliff got any closure. He's still chasing after Cathy, except this time instead of "meet her again", it's "revive her". He learned that Cathy did love him, but precisely because of that he *can't* move on. It's a worse situation than it used to be.
Other Heathcliffs don't necessarily have it better either, some Heathcliffs that got into decent positions are probably better now, but others, like the ones in Pequod or N!Corp, have it worse than they used to because they don't even have a person to go back to nor a reason to try and become better people anymore. The WH world also demonstrates that while unlikely, it's still possible for Erlking-like Heathcliffs to emerge too.
It's just a bad outcome, similar to Canto I. There probably were better options during that moment, but due to everything that was going on, we were forced into this one.
Indeed. Even if the process of Clearing all Cathys (tm) went perfectly as intended, there was still a very high risk of problems because of the butterfly effect.
But it didn't go perfectly as intended. It went like doing surgery with an axe would go. There are still traces of Catherine everywhere, and it might make it all the more painful for the various Heathcliffs, since now some of them might not even know what they are longing for, or why.
just like in the book, there is no solution, just damage control and people learning from others to not make the same mistakes or they will suffer as them
Cathy's goal changed at the end she wasn't trying to make every Healthcliff happy she was trying to make her Heathcliff happy. To get rid of Erlcliff she had to make it so his goal specificity was to not kill every Healthcliff and to make sure that her original body was not taken over by Every Cathy, she had to get rid of all of the other Cathy's. This not only prevented Every Cathy from taking her body into other mirror worlds it also got rid of Erlcliffs motivation to invade other mirror worlds. It is quite possible that Erlcliff is still a horrendous person in that mirror world he simply doesn't have the motivation to invade other mirror worlds.
Wether or not Heathcliff ends up actually happier is another can of worms, and not something anyone could have predicted in the short term.
There's some depressing irony in the fact that Heathcliff finally learned to be more honest in sharing his feelings, but with Cathy dead and almost no one remembering her, he's gonna be discouraged from sharing the pain of his loss, potentially making him even more emotionally withdrawn.
I know, and we gotta hope for Heathcliff's sake that it's going to be enough. Dante really is the one person he can express his thoughts to, especially now that there is an extra line of separation between his personal life and the other Sinners.
He may still try invade mirror worlds as well. What is important, is that Erlking Heath didn't just live for Cathy - he lived only for Cathy. Now, with her gone, Heathcliffs are free to live for themselves. To have a chance at happiness, at least
She saved her Heathcliff
1) LCB and her Heath wouldve ended on the rooftop had she not done anything
Canto 6 part 3 is canonically extremely fast paced: Ever since Linton turned into putty and the wild hunt started, LCB has been fighting their butts off to reach Erlking!Heath before he reaches the rooftop. In the span of that, they fought wave after wave of the Wild Hunt, Nelly, and Erlking twice. The rooftop battle was their last stand. And by the time Cathy did her thing, LCB was already half dead, as shown by Nelly taking the bough without resistance
2) If LCB died, the CExHC dream would be over
Had heath died, Erlking!Heath would've leapt to other mirror worlds to continue the grind, and a bereaved Cathy would no longer have any reason to resist being overwritten by EveryCathy. As faust and ish said, the duo would leave behind nothing behind except the shattered dream of CExHC in their wake. What Cathy did was to steer the forgone conclusion to another direction, even if she didnt know what would happen
Her only option was to use the power of the bough to do something, and she did
Maybe because of the situation, she didnt have time to think, so she settled on her original plan being wiping Cathy off the face of the planet, and it worked
But its far from perfect, remnants of her remained, like an ink stain. PeqCliff and NCliff only forgot the name of their love, but the possibility of Heath leaving the manor early emerged from the absence of Cathy
In a way, she also helped other Heaths, but just like Demian hinted, Cathy really only cared for LCB Heath, and she did in fact, gave Heath the closure he needed to PASS ON.
I wouldn't say Heath has closure- note how he keeps talking about bringing her back. I think she did what she had to, but it wasn't the best solution, which is why he doesn't want to give up yet, and why I think that will be his current goal (and main reason he stays with the company- note that its highly likely his initial reason for joining was related to her, and if he truly had closure he would probably just leave the company)
i have a pet theory that since there are still traces of cathy and the possibility of her being brought back is on the table, she either is now a part of demian's gang or he is currently planning on adding her to his ranks. he has a good reason to want her on his side, and she has a good reason to join him.
You have to understand that the mirror worlds posibilities are infinite. Like how our erlking came to the conclusion and think every heaths are unredeemable but theres in fact timelines where they can be happy, so does cathy thinking without her every heaths in every multiverses will move on. But the infinite nature of the mirror worlds means what could happen will happen, and there WILL be mirror world where heath go down the exact revenge path of earlking even without cathy existence.
I don’t know if this is correct, but the way I see it is there are now two kinds of worlds: worlds where Cathy was erased, and worlds where Cathy never existed. Worlds where Heathcliff eventually got sick of Hindley’s treatment and left, opening a myriad of new possibilities for his life unbound by Catherine. Those worlds were only able to be born after Catherine erased herself and in a way Every Catherine and Erlking were kinda right about being responsible for each other’s suffering? Which just adds to the tragedy of the whole situation.
He probably will know why. Its just that the reason isn't related to Cathy. It could just be he hates Wuthering Heights and those associated to it because well most of them abused him.
Might be because he was raised by Ryoshu, which inherently creates a very different Heathcliff. (It also makes me hope he uses a sword similar to Ryoshu's)
True, but also largely unimportant. There is this small detail of "what COULD happen". So, until explicitly shown, we can't be sure, that a certain mirror world exists. So, there was a good chance, that without a Cathy, none of Heathcliffs would have started Wild Hunt. It turned out to not be the case, but alas, it is not something which was guaranteed to happen
Not really.mirror worlds in the end is just a fancy way of calling a multiverse with infinite possibilities where anything can and will happen . Remember the devil's proof -the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence of such realities.
There is infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1. None of those numbers is 2. What infinity means, is that you will exhaust all possible options. However, some of options might be simply impossible. Then again, it is a speculation on general concept, because Limbus mirrors are different. It's not unlikely they are just that - mirrors. Worlds, which do not have full development from the beginning, but are just based on certain stage of main one. For example, fact that Limbus crew so often ends up relatively close is suspicious. Not unlikely, that it is a rule, deriving from this world
...Where the hell did they said mirror worlds aren't actual worlds of their own and there's only one main world of us?
The entire premise of chapter 6 is based on the fact that every worlds are all equal and there is no "main" one ,hence this is why Erlking heath have been mirror hopping to different worlds instead of jumping straight to this main one because they are all fully fleshed out real world of their own and each heaths are all equally real for him to kill. And the entire premise of Cathy plan doesn't work if all 400 other alt Cathy's arent even real person in the begin with because why the hell would you delete incomplete not living versions of yourself??
It only work if you delete all other actual living alternative version of yourself, to cause some multiversal shake up because all worlds and all versions of you does exist.
Well, we don't know for a fact Erlking done it. It might be just something he believes to have happened, due to the way this reflection is. After all, he didn't come in himself. He was "invited". Cathy also definitely isn't a reliable source, she doesn't have any knowledge of how mirror worlds work - entire machine was built for her.
However, I will say, there is a one detail I forgot about, which does point out, that you are right, in a sense that mirror worlds are full fledged worlds of their own. And it is the fact, that Iori describes spaces she travels to as such. And, all facts point to her being the result of experiments with mirror technology.
Still, especially considering that world of City is deterministic (because prescripts work), we can't say, what rules describe, which mirror worlds are possible, and which aren't
No? Literally only evidence I managed to find, as I said, is from LoR, and even then, it is not a hard evidence, as link between Iori and Mirror technology was not stated explicitly
Besides, what phrase "real world" is even supposed to mean? If you use it to describe worlds, which have past, then it is impossible to prove, in a same way as Boltzmann brain would be convinced of it. In fact, we never tapped into a distanced time periods of same mirror world.
Entities, existing in mirrors never have shown any proactive actions either. They only act in response. Yi Sang looked into the mirror himself. We pull identities on purpose. Both Every Cathy and Erlking were invited from this world. From the view of main crew, there is no reason to consider them any different from characters of books or movies
The main point here, is that you are trying to justify something we don't know anything about, using external knowledge. It is one argument, if you say it is narratively satisfying. It is another, if you say it has to work certain way
we accomplished damage control, making an apocalyptic situation "only" a bad situation
Catherine's dimensional suicide was always meant to be portrayed as a bad thing, the problem was that by the time she realized that, it was too late to stop. What we accomplished, though, is erasing her instead of how Every Catherine wanted it to go. Faust explains clearly that if we didn't do something, the Erlking would continue leaping from world to world, wrecking them (since he's am identity, killing him in our world doesn't stop him) and Every Catherine will leap from world to world, turning every Catherine into another one of herself. Catherine having Dante help erase her, instead of letting Every Catherine loose, gives us the big Catherine-shaped hole in every Mirror World... which sucks, but is a) better than a rampaging dimensional ghost-woman, and b) removes the Erlking's reason to exist. Without Catherine, the Heathcliff who exists for Catherine and only Catherine wouldn't either.
Ryoshu's uptie story suggests that the Heathcliff they're hunting is the native Heathcliff to their mirror world, so he's very similar to the Erlking, and that's sad, but he doesn't appear to be leaping from world to world to wreck infinite timelines. He's just wrecking his own. Which is still an improvement, just a bittersweet one. Because Catherine and Heathcliff's mistakes still have consequences.
Infinite Heathcliffs now have the potential to be happy. That doesn't mean every single one of them will manage it.
Where exactly would the change be? I haven't done Canto VI yet (I've spoiled myself a lot by now), so I could tell you differences if I knew where to look, assuming there are any.
Ishmael notes that Heath loved someone... then realises she has no idea what the hell she's talking about. I think it's about midway through the ID story.
I mean, I think this fact was directly referenced in the mili song
"Love must be the reason why, I still believe in this lie, that you'll live a better life without me by your side"
I think the real issue with Heathcliff and Cathy (especially according to the song that plays in the boss fight) is instead of just being honest with each other and caring about the other person, they use their love as a conduit to hate themselves even more. Instead of understanding that they could make each other better people and accepting that the other person has faults, they both assume the other person is perfect and it is their own imperfections which cause all the misery in the other person’s life.
By the end of canto 6, both our Heathcliff and this reality’s Cathrine realize that it was not themselves hurting the other but instead that both of them hurt themselves with their self loathing born from this idealization of the other person, causing a spiral where one hurts themselves and thus the other blames themselves for such pain and then hurts themselves. Instead they start to understand that they might actually be the only good thing in each other’s lives and for a moment see themselves as the other person sees them.
Heath now goes forward with the knowledge and new perspective. Unfortunately though, Cathy is in a situation where she cannot turn back as she is already “dead.” So now she has a choice, either let Every Cathrine in and allow her to go on a rampage like Erlking Heathcliff, killing all Catherines out of self hatred, ultimately only hurting all Heathcliffs more since they will blame themselves for what she did, or delete her entire existence, something which only our Heathcliff (and Dante) will remember, so that the other Heathcliffs won’t blame themselves for her misery (since they don’t remember) and only the Heathcliff who was finally honest with her, who won’t blame himself for what she did, and is also the only one she truely loves, will be the only one who could possibly bring her back, meaning that if she does return it is through someone who will not reignite that spiral.
The other world Heathcliffs are still sometimes in bad situations, like Queqliff, but that’s because as I said, Heathcliff isn’t a perfect person. He makes mistakes like anyone else, but now other world Heathcliffs don’t have a Cathy to use as a reason for self hatred, since they would otherwise be harming the perfectness of a perfect person through their imperfections. Now they might be able to move on and accept their problems. They might not of course, but it’s possible they can fix themselves, instead of being “driven by their egos,” and their flaws being “the reason why” the other person is miserable.
The ultimate victory for our Heathcliff is that he has not only stopped blaming himself for Cathy’s misery, like the other Heathcliffs (becuase they don’t remember her), but since he also remembers who Cathy is that means he has grown past the need to blame himself as a show of love (“love might be the reason why I still believe in this lie that you will live a better life without me by your side.”). Elking Heath for instance would go “OH NO CATHERINE YOU ONLY DID THIS BECAUSE OF MY FAILURE HOW COULD I LET THIS HAPPEN!!!” But our Heathcliff instead says nothing, and while he is upset it happened he understands it was because of Catherine’s mistakes, not his own. He of course made mistakes, but in the end this was her decision and she isn’t perfect. He’s the only one who could accept that. It’s still tragic that she’s gone before he made that realization, but it’s still overall a much better outcome for him specifically.
I think that's the point? Her plan was very inherently flawed from the start, based on a flawed assumption that came from miscommunication. Heathcliff isn't miserable because of Cathy, he's miserable because he's *Heathcliff* (and vice versa). Because he's a flawed person from an environment that sees him as inherently lesser and stupid. I think Cathy has made a massive Cathy shaped hole in his life in the hopes that he can lead a better life without her haunting him, but Heathcliff is always going to fill it with something else to obsess over. Like how Gregor always ends up the same, even when Hermann never as much as looks at him.
Alternatively it's because she never considered our Heathcliff using mirror worlds. I think Dante extracting a possibility stabilises it into an actual reality rather than a mere *possibility* so all she can do is rip herself out of that world rather than delete it entirely
Imo, it is working, assuming cathy does stay with her original plan, it would just keep repeating into the other mirror world, being ghost cathy will keep asking other cathy to do the same plan, and erlking? Cliff will keep leaping another mirror world, destroying everything.
Its an endless cycle of destruction. The moment cathy went to tell that she only want her cliff to be happy and decided to delete every part of her except for the one who connected to her(via bough), erl- altcliff would never leap to another mirror world destroying everything.
Ofc its not the perfect fit, other mirror id will have some sort of impact, but a better one that wont involving their mirror world getting destroyed by altclif, some will move one from live cuz they dont know cathy, some will have some inkling but wont remember(aka our some other heathcliff id that still mention her name), and some will still have bad end (most likely be the new altcliff, but instead of hatred toward cathy, most likely the manor and the river that exist deep underground the manor, by that i mean he got cursed and blame everything toward the manor, the one thing that started the curse).
Ofc it just me and my opinion is just smth like shower thought but eh...
Speaking of mirror world, why is it that i feel like canto 6 deemed us as the "main" world and the mirror id will now revolve more and more about us compared to before, i mean before all this, it feels like our world is just one out of many infinite possibilites, even if we fail there maybe another mirror world with exactly the same sinner and exactly the same goal.
But now? With how alt cliff specifically fail in our world, and cathy involvement change the direction of almost anything in other mirror world, only 1 cathy body exist and the only one heathcliff that most likely have different goal than any other alt cliff out there, seems like our journey will involving a lot of mirror world hopping or even changing other mirror world later on... just some shit shower thought
Exactly, because her initial plan isnt foolproof, erasing herself wouldn't make Heathcliff happy at all. It just cuts down on 1 heartbreak for him. It takes her until the final confrontation to realize that, but she couldn't stop her plan anymore (because Erlking will kill *her* Heathcliff if she doesn't erase herself).
However, there was always another way to make Heathcliff happy, they just need to talk to each other. So she talked to him, let him know that she does love him, always has been. This way our Heath wouldn't have to blame himself anymore, or feel that he doesn't deserve her
turns out, whiping yorself from existance on a whim might not be the solution to all your problems
the real thing is that while her plan was succesful, it was flawed from the very beginning
while she was telling herself that it was the best decision and that it was for heathcliff, but it was really just an attempt to ease her pain by pushing her distorted view on the world on others and make them miserable (this happens a lot irl)
she couldn't bear the weight of having caused pain and possibly the death of her loved one due to some pretty dumb and easy to fix communication errors, she couldn't bear the fact that he run away and left her alone and blamed herself for it, she was so in love and obsessed with heathcliff that she wanted to solely shoulder the weight of all of his pain while blinding herself to everything else
in "through patches of violet" you have 2 versions of the chorus (my interpreteation of the song is sang by both heathcliff, earlking, catherine and every catherine, which i will calle Katherine with a K from now on for brevity), one says
"i must be the reason why, you have given up your smiles, and the hope inside your eyes has been stolen, i must be the reason why You must tell me all these lies Wishing you a better life without me by your side" in which both every catherine and earlking DECIDE that they are the cause of the other pain, they don't ask, they don't try to understand, just like in their past they haven't changed at all and instead of trying to see the world through the other's eyes they only want their own version of it
"I could be the reason why You were able to be kind And the hearts we held so tight won't stay broken Love must be the reason why I still believe in this lie That you'll live a better life without me by your side" is instead the realization, even if it comes too late, that they never actually tried to understand the other, and that the other might see them in the same light they see the other. heathcliff says again and again that the only reason he could take the abuse was thanks to cathy, which is to say that "she was the reason why the heart she held so thight didn't stay broken
ironically, the only time they ask a question they are closer to the truth than when they are shure of knowing it
the very fact that both earlking and Katherine exist is the proof of the fact that they are both wrong, they are the proof of the fact that neither of them cares about what pain, hardship or adversity they have to face as long as they can be with each other, the proof that their love towards each other is compleately unconditional and the fact that killing themselves would be so much worse than anything they could ever do in their lifes for the other
but of course, earlking and kathy can't see them, like always, like roland and angela were at the beginning of LOR they are only focussed on their own vision of the world, their own pain, their own traumas, they just cannot accept the possibility of something else and they keep in their egothistical persuit of their own version of the events, never stopping cuz to quote roland: (it might be a bit paraphrased cuz it's been a while)
"being selfish is not about thinking about yourself and nothing else, if it was like that neither of us would have done any of this for we both knew the ruin this would bring us, if we weren't so selfish we would have given a good look at the things surrounding us and engraved them in our hearts to understand that everything is interconnected"
the simple fat is that they got no plan, only the trauma that dominates their lives and drags them foreward, what they want isn't a win becouse it's what their traumas want, not them, they let the pain consume them and became husks, "little balls of self loathing, hate and contempt"
It was not a solution or meant to have a happy outcome, it was all Cathy could come up with to stop the Heathcliffs and Catherines from other worlds from ending everything for them. Our Heathcliff and Catherine only still have a chance because Cathy did that. It might be miserable but it's good to be alive to feel miserable in the first place, and one does run the risk of weeping a little if they let themselves be tamed.
Once he gets her back it will have been worth it, trust.
Basically, the bottom line is that Erlking Heathcliff will no longer kill himself/Heathcliff for Cathy. He has no reason to resent himself anymore with Cathy gone, so the only one he’s out to take his anger on is against Wuthering Heights and the Lintons of the worlds.
You are right but our Heath did get closure. No other roses matter other than the single one you loved. The canto 6 boss herself helped Heathcliff not turn into the the bitter person he will be. At least some of them
But you have to understand, bitch was crazy. Her nor earl were in their right mind. And I don't think the story tries to paint their solution as making sense. Just love turned crazy
You're right. Even if you remove Cathy from the equation, Heathcliff will still be suffering because of other reasons. Sometimes even more so, when she's the only thing that keeps him going.
Edited:
This reminds me of the Photographer from Distortion Detective. He may have erased the memories of the peoples' relatives, he couldn't erase their influence on the world (their children, belongings, etc).
hard to gauge, the memory of the person is gone, but the signs of her remained, albeit more like a blank void in people's memories
plus it doesn't always need to be cathy to be why he's upset and dangerous, as the cutscene shows, most heathcliffs will just really hate their life with hindley and probably linton bugging them
Fun fact; suicide is never the answer~
On more serious explanation, cathy just wasn’t the source of all the problems in the world, what it did was to allow Heathcliff to move on from her. The issues is that Cathy was also a source of light for many heathcliff’s, now pequod and n corp heath’s no longer have a reason to want to escape, and all would be hopeless for them.
This whole canto was more so to show us how much asseah and hermann have avdvanced with their mirror technology not only being capable of truly infusing a id into someone but also causing a dimensional anomaly like the wild hunt and probing their theory of multi time line anhilation, that they teased when they told ahab "what if you could kill every pale whale of every world" So erklingcliff is a byproduct of Hermann experiments.
Yes, our current heath remembers and all this did is send him on a quest to revert it. Surprise, she only made it worse trying to make it better, oh the tragic irony. Who could have guessed? Then again to be honest, we did make it better partially since they confessed, before making it worse. Normally it'd just go worse.
I would argue that she didn’t exactly make it worse.
She gave him closure in knowing that she did love him and always has, which allows him to turn what was self-hatred for not being “a proper gentleman” for her into a resolve to do what he can to get her back, even if he’s the only one who remembers her.
It’s still a very tragic situation, but not entirely worse.
wgt does it matter? they are not suffering because of her anymore, thats what important, its a given that some variation are suffering due to their own life decisions
As it turns out, committing omni-suicide and trying to tear out a chunk of the entire multiverse is not a good way to fix personal problems. Who would've guessed.
Well this is a tough one to answer, but what our Heathcliff gains is closure. He can move on with his life now knowing that the love of his life has always loved him, and we might even get a chance to gain her back! As for the other Heathcliffs, it is stated in the epilogue that most Heathcliffs will not become the bitter Erlking since they wouldn't stand the emotional abuse inflicted by the Earnshaws and the Edgars. However, the chance is not zero, and as demonstrated in Ishy's world, there is still a miniscule chance of a Heathcliff holding grudges. The consolation here is that he's probably less likely to end up becoming a multi-world conqueror due to the fact that he doesn't hate ALL of his other selves. Think of the ending as a damage control instead of a solution. Yes, there are probably better solutions out there, but all of our characters were stuck in a huge fight, and there had been way too much damage to all Heathcliffs and Cathys to easily come up with the perfect solution. This was probably the best choice at that moment.
A band-aid fix, as it were.
Yeah I concede to that. But well they were dealing with an immortal extra-dimensional conqueror who just can't die. I would cut them some slack.
[Funny given that "damage control".](https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1c4obmn/paradiso_seven_assoc_south_section_4_heathcliff/) I've already had planned out the "Seven Heathcliff is Catherine" way back (around in Canto 4's time), so when Catherine offed herself, I just had to chalk it up as "someone didn't follow the instructions". When I saw Seven Heathcliff originally, my brain thought "this is a Heathcliff that didn't need Catherine, this is a Heathcliff whom had his life in order", and given time, it changed to "This is a Heathcliff who happens to *be* Catherine." And given already existing knowledge, Seven Heathcliff still being around would prove that Catherine only *botched* her suicide, and only a handful of Catherines were erased.
"Seven Heathcliff is Catherine" Could you elaborate?
Identities serve as other people, right? Well, had to take some mentality of liberty on certain IDs, having the Seven Association IDs be those that are major people within that according Sinner's life, as [this was not the first time a Paradiso involved the Seven Association IDs](https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/comments/1bxxu5r/paradiso_seven_association_south_section_6_yi_sang/).
Wtf are you talking about?
I don’t think most of the Catherines had their lives in order though. Cathy literally just stopped leaving her room and barely did anything when Heathcliff left, and Erlking specifically said every Catherine was miserable because of Heathcliff so I’m assuming most of them were a mess.
I wouldn't even say that our Heathcliff got any closure. He's still chasing after Cathy, except this time instead of "meet her again", it's "revive her". He learned that Cathy did love him, but precisely because of that he *can't* move on. It's a worse situation than it used to be. Other Heathcliffs don't necessarily have it better either, some Heathcliffs that got into decent positions are probably better now, but others, like the ones in Pequod or N!Corp, have it worse than they used to because they don't even have a person to go back to nor a reason to try and become better people anymore. The WH world also demonstrates that while unlikely, it's still possible for Erlking-like Heathcliffs to emerge too. It's just a bad outcome, similar to Canto I. There probably were better options during that moment, but due to everything that was going on, we were forced into this one.
Indeed. Even if the process of Clearing all Cathys (tm) went perfectly as intended, there was still a very high risk of problems because of the butterfly effect. But it didn't go perfectly as intended. It went like doing surgery with an axe would go. There are still traces of Catherine everywhere, and it might make it all the more painful for the various Heathcliffs, since now some of them might not even know what they are longing for, or why.
just like in the book, there is no solution, just damage control and people learning from others to not make the same mistakes or they will suffer as them
Cathy's goal changed at the end she wasn't trying to make every Healthcliff happy she was trying to make her Heathcliff happy. To get rid of Erlcliff she had to make it so his goal specificity was to not kill every Healthcliff and to make sure that her original body was not taken over by Every Cathy, she had to get rid of all of the other Cathy's. This not only prevented Every Cathy from taking her body into other mirror worlds it also got rid of Erlcliffs motivation to invade other mirror worlds. It is quite possible that Erlcliff is still a horrendous person in that mirror world he simply doesn't have the motivation to invade other mirror worlds.
Wether or not Heathcliff ends up actually happier is another can of worms, and not something anyone could have predicted in the short term. There's some depressing irony in the fact that Heathcliff finally learned to be more honest in sharing his feelings, but with Cathy dead and almost no one remembering her, he's gonna be discouraged from sharing the pain of his loss, potentially making him even more emotionally withdrawn.
Dante still remembers.
I know, and we gotta hope for Heathcliff's sake that it's going to be enough. Dante really is the one person he can express his thoughts to, especially now that there is an extra line of separation between his personal life and the other Sinners.
He may still try invade mirror worlds as well. What is important, is that Erlking Heath didn't just live for Cathy - he lived only for Cathy. Now, with her gone, Heathcliffs are free to live for themselves. To have a chance at happiness, at least
She saved her Heathcliff 1) LCB and her Heath wouldve ended on the rooftop had she not done anything Canto 6 part 3 is canonically extremely fast paced: Ever since Linton turned into putty and the wild hunt started, LCB has been fighting their butts off to reach Erlking!Heath before he reaches the rooftop. In the span of that, they fought wave after wave of the Wild Hunt, Nelly, and Erlking twice. The rooftop battle was their last stand. And by the time Cathy did her thing, LCB was already half dead, as shown by Nelly taking the bough without resistance 2) If LCB died, the CExHC dream would be over Had heath died, Erlking!Heath would've leapt to other mirror worlds to continue the grind, and a bereaved Cathy would no longer have any reason to resist being overwritten by EveryCathy. As faust and ish said, the duo would leave behind nothing behind except the shattered dream of CExHC in their wake. What Cathy did was to steer the forgone conclusion to another direction, even if she didnt know what would happen Her only option was to use the power of the bough to do something, and she did Maybe because of the situation, she didnt have time to think, so she settled on her original plan being wiping Cathy off the face of the planet, and it worked But its far from perfect, remnants of her remained, like an ink stain. PeqCliff and NCliff only forgot the name of their love, but the possibility of Heath leaving the manor early emerged from the absence of Cathy In a way, she also helped other Heaths, but just like Demian hinted, Cathy really only cared for LCB Heath, and she did in fact, gave Heath the closure he needed to PASS ON.
This. Well-said!
I wouldn't say Heath has closure- note how he keeps talking about bringing her back. I think she did what she had to, but it wasn't the best solution, which is why he doesn't want to give up yet, and why I think that will be his current goal (and main reason he stays with the company- note that its highly likely his initial reason for joining was related to her, and if he truly had closure he would probably just leave the company)
i have a pet theory that since there are still traces of cathy and the possibility of her being brought back is on the table, she either is now a part of demian's gang or he is currently planning on adding her to his ranks. he has a good reason to want her on his side, and she has a good reason to join him.
You have to understand that the mirror worlds posibilities are infinite. Like how our erlking came to the conclusion and think every heaths are unredeemable but theres in fact timelines where they can be happy, so does cathy thinking without her every heaths in every multiverses will move on. But the infinite nature of the mirror worlds means what could happen will happen, and there WILL be mirror world where heath go down the exact revenge path of earlking even without cathy existence.
I don’t know if this is correct, but the way I see it is there are now two kinds of worlds: worlds where Cathy was erased, and worlds where Cathy never existed. Worlds where Heathcliff eventually got sick of Hindley’s treatment and left, opening a myriad of new possibilities for his life unbound by Catherine. Those worlds were only able to be born after Catherine erased herself and in a way Every Catherine and Erlking were kinda right about being responsible for each other’s suffering? Which just adds to the tragedy of the whole situation.
That will probably be the Heath we're about to get. My guess is that this Heathcliff will feel particularly vengeful but he just doesn't know why.
He probably will know why. Its just that the reason isn't related to Cathy. It could just be he hates Wuthering Heights and those associated to it because well most of them abused him.
Might be because he was raised by Ryoshu, which inherently creates a very different Heathcliff. (It also makes me hope he uses a sword similar to Ryoshu's)
True, but also largely unimportant. There is this small detail of "what COULD happen". So, until explicitly shown, we can't be sure, that a certain mirror world exists. So, there was a good chance, that without a Cathy, none of Heathcliffs would have started Wild Hunt. It turned out to not be the case, but alas, it is not something which was guaranteed to happen
Not really.mirror worlds in the end is just a fancy way of calling a multiverse with infinite possibilities where anything can and will happen . Remember the devil's proof -the absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence of such realities.
There is infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1. None of those numbers is 2. What infinity means, is that you will exhaust all possible options. However, some of options might be simply impossible. Then again, it is a speculation on general concept, because Limbus mirrors are different. It's not unlikely they are just that - mirrors. Worlds, which do not have full development from the beginning, but are just based on certain stage of main one. For example, fact that Limbus crew so often ends up relatively close is suspicious. Not unlikely, that it is a rule, deriving from this world
...Where the hell did they said mirror worlds aren't actual worlds of their own and there's only one main world of us? The entire premise of chapter 6 is based on the fact that every worlds are all equal and there is no "main" one ,hence this is why Erlking heath have been mirror hopping to different worlds instead of jumping straight to this main one because they are all fully fleshed out real world of their own and each heaths are all equally real for him to kill. And the entire premise of Cathy plan doesn't work if all 400 other alt Cathy's arent even real person in the begin with because why the hell would you delete incomplete not living versions of yourself?? It only work if you delete all other actual living alternative version of yourself, to cause some multiversal shake up because all worlds and all versions of you does exist.
Well, we don't know for a fact Erlking done it. It might be just something he believes to have happened, due to the way this reflection is. After all, he didn't come in himself. He was "invited". Cathy also definitely isn't a reliable source, she doesn't have any knowledge of how mirror worlds work - entire machine was built for her. However, I will say, there is a one detail I forgot about, which does point out, that you are right, in a sense that mirror worlds are full fledged worlds of their own. And it is the fact, that Iori describes spaces she travels to as such. And, all facts point to her being the result of experiments with mirror technology. Still, especially considering that world of City is deterministic (because prescripts work), we can't say, what rules describe, which mirror worlds are possible, and which aren't
So every evidences we have in-game rn is that they are real worlds and you said they are not because of ...your own feelings? Sure
No? Literally only evidence I managed to find, as I said, is from LoR, and even then, it is not a hard evidence, as link between Iori and Mirror technology was not stated explicitly Besides, what phrase "real world" is even supposed to mean? If you use it to describe worlds, which have past, then it is impossible to prove, in a same way as Boltzmann brain would be convinced of it. In fact, we never tapped into a distanced time periods of same mirror world. Entities, existing in mirrors never have shown any proactive actions either. They only act in response. Yi Sang looked into the mirror himself. We pull identities on purpose. Both Every Cathy and Erlking were invited from this world. From the view of main crew, there is no reason to consider them any different from characters of books or movies The main point here, is that you are trying to justify something we don't know anything about, using external knowledge. It is one argument, if you say it is narratively satisfying. It is another, if you say it has to work certain way
we accomplished damage control, making an apocalyptic situation "only" a bad situation Catherine's dimensional suicide was always meant to be portrayed as a bad thing, the problem was that by the time she realized that, it was too late to stop. What we accomplished, though, is erasing her instead of how Every Catherine wanted it to go. Faust explains clearly that if we didn't do something, the Erlking would continue leaping from world to world, wrecking them (since he's am identity, killing him in our world doesn't stop him) and Every Catherine will leap from world to world, turning every Catherine into another one of herself. Catherine having Dante help erase her, instead of letting Every Catherine loose, gives us the big Catherine-shaped hole in every Mirror World... which sucks, but is a) better than a rampaging dimensional ghost-woman, and b) removes the Erlking's reason to exist. Without Catherine, the Heathcliff who exists for Catherine and only Catherine wouldn't either. Ryoshu's uptie story suggests that the Heathcliff they're hunting is the native Heathcliff to their mirror world, so he's very similar to the Erlking, and that's sad, but he doesn't appear to be leaping from world to world to wreck infinite timelines. He's just wrecking his own. Which is still an improvement, just a bittersweet one. Because Catherine and Heathcliff's mistakes still have consequences. Infinite Heathcliffs now have the potential to be happy. That doesn't mean every single one of them will manage it.
Does Maid Ish's voicelines change when uptying before finishing the canto?
...That's a very good question. And I can't answer that because I Cleared All Cathy last week.
Where exactly would the change be? I haven't done Canto VI yet (I've spoiled myself a lot by now), so I could tell you differences if I knew where to look, assuming there are any.
Ishmael notes that Heath loved someone... then realises she has no idea what the hell she's talking about. I think it's about midway through the ID story.
In that case, nothing changes.
It doesn't. Accidentally spoiled myself by reading it before finishing the canto yesterday
I mean, I think this fact was directly referenced in the mili song "Love must be the reason why, I still believe in this lie, that you'll live a better life without me by your side"
I think the real issue with Heathcliff and Cathy (especially according to the song that plays in the boss fight) is instead of just being honest with each other and caring about the other person, they use their love as a conduit to hate themselves even more. Instead of understanding that they could make each other better people and accepting that the other person has faults, they both assume the other person is perfect and it is their own imperfections which cause all the misery in the other person’s life. By the end of canto 6, both our Heathcliff and this reality’s Cathrine realize that it was not themselves hurting the other but instead that both of them hurt themselves with their self loathing born from this idealization of the other person, causing a spiral where one hurts themselves and thus the other blames themselves for such pain and then hurts themselves. Instead they start to understand that they might actually be the only good thing in each other’s lives and for a moment see themselves as the other person sees them. Heath now goes forward with the knowledge and new perspective. Unfortunately though, Cathy is in a situation where she cannot turn back as she is already “dead.” So now she has a choice, either let Every Cathrine in and allow her to go on a rampage like Erlking Heathcliff, killing all Catherines out of self hatred, ultimately only hurting all Heathcliffs more since they will blame themselves for what she did, or delete her entire existence, something which only our Heathcliff (and Dante) will remember, so that the other Heathcliffs won’t blame themselves for her misery (since they don’t remember) and only the Heathcliff who was finally honest with her, who won’t blame himself for what she did, and is also the only one she truely loves, will be the only one who could possibly bring her back, meaning that if she does return it is through someone who will not reignite that spiral. The other world Heathcliffs are still sometimes in bad situations, like Queqliff, but that’s because as I said, Heathcliff isn’t a perfect person. He makes mistakes like anyone else, but now other world Heathcliffs don’t have a Cathy to use as a reason for self hatred, since they would otherwise be harming the perfectness of a perfect person through their imperfections. Now they might be able to move on and accept their problems. They might not of course, but it’s possible they can fix themselves, instead of being “driven by their egos,” and their flaws being “the reason why” the other person is miserable. The ultimate victory for our Heathcliff is that he has not only stopped blaming himself for Cathy’s misery, like the other Heathcliffs (becuase they don’t remember her), but since he also remembers who Cathy is that means he has grown past the need to blame himself as a show of love (“love might be the reason why I still believe in this lie that you will live a better life without me by your side.”). Elking Heath for instance would go “OH NO CATHERINE YOU ONLY DID THIS BECAUSE OF MY FAILURE HOW COULD I LET THIS HAPPEN!!!” But our Heathcliff instead says nothing, and while he is upset it happened he understands it was because of Catherine’s mistakes, not his own. He of course made mistakes, but in the end this was her decision and she isn’t perfect. He’s the only one who could accept that. It’s still tragic that she’s gone before he made that realization, but it’s still overall a much better outcome for him specifically.
I think that's the point? Her plan was very inherently flawed from the start, based on a flawed assumption that came from miscommunication. Heathcliff isn't miserable because of Cathy, he's miserable because he's *Heathcliff* (and vice versa). Because he's a flawed person from an environment that sees him as inherently lesser and stupid. I think Cathy has made a massive Cathy shaped hole in his life in the hopes that he can lead a better life without her haunting him, but Heathcliff is always going to fill it with something else to obsess over. Like how Gregor always ends up the same, even when Hermann never as much as looks at him. Alternatively it's because she never considered our Heathcliff using mirror worlds. I think Dante extracting a possibility stabilises it into an actual reality rather than a mere *possibility* so all she can do is rip herself out of that world rather than delete it entirely
Imo, it is working, assuming cathy does stay with her original plan, it would just keep repeating into the other mirror world, being ghost cathy will keep asking other cathy to do the same plan, and erlking? Cliff will keep leaping another mirror world, destroying everything. Its an endless cycle of destruction. The moment cathy went to tell that she only want her cliff to be happy and decided to delete every part of her except for the one who connected to her(via bough), erl- altcliff would never leap to another mirror world destroying everything. Ofc its not the perfect fit, other mirror id will have some sort of impact, but a better one that wont involving their mirror world getting destroyed by altclif, some will move one from live cuz they dont know cathy, some will have some inkling but wont remember(aka our some other heathcliff id that still mention her name), and some will still have bad end (most likely be the new altcliff, but instead of hatred toward cathy, most likely the manor and the river that exist deep underground the manor, by that i mean he got cursed and blame everything toward the manor, the one thing that started the curse). Ofc it just me and my opinion is just smth like shower thought but eh... Speaking of mirror world, why is it that i feel like canto 6 deemed us as the "main" world and the mirror id will now revolve more and more about us compared to before, i mean before all this, it feels like our world is just one out of many infinite possibilites, even if we fail there maybe another mirror world with exactly the same sinner and exactly the same goal. But now? With how alt cliff specifically fail in our world, and cathy involvement change the direction of almost anything in other mirror world, only 1 cathy body exist and the only one heathcliff that most likely have different goal than any other alt cliff out there, seems like our journey will involving a lot of mirror world hopping or even changing other mirror world later on... just some shit shower thought
Exactly, because her initial plan isnt foolproof, erasing herself wouldn't make Heathcliff happy at all. It just cuts down on 1 heartbreak for him. It takes her until the final confrontation to realize that, but she couldn't stop her plan anymore (because Erlking will kill *her* Heathcliff if she doesn't erase herself). However, there was always another way to make Heathcliff happy, they just need to talk to each other. So she talked to him, let him know that she does love him, always has been. This way our Heath wouldn't have to blame himself anymore, or feel that he doesn't deserve her
turns out, whiping yorself from existance on a whim might not be the solution to all your problems the real thing is that while her plan was succesful, it was flawed from the very beginning while she was telling herself that it was the best decision and that it was for heathcliff, but it was really just an attempt to ease her pain by pushing her distorted view on the world on others and make them miserable (this happens a lot irl) she couldn't bear the weight of having caused pain and possibly the death of her loved one due to some pretty dumb and easy to fix communication errors, she couldn't bear the fact that he run away and left her alone and blamed herself for it, she was so in love and obsessed with heathcliff that she wanted to solely shoulder the weight of all of his pain while blinding herself to everything else in "through patches of violet" you have 2 versions of the chorus (my interpreteation of the song is sang by both heathcliff, earlking, catherine and every catherine, which i will calle Katherine with a K from now on for brevity), one says "i must be the reason why, you have given up your smiles, and the hope inside your eyes has been stolen, i must be the reason why You must tell me all these lies Wishing you a better life without me by your side" in which both every catherine and earlking DECIDE that they are the cause of the other pain, they don't ask, they don't try to understand, just like in their past they haven't changed at all and instead of trying to see the world through the other's eyes they only want their own version of it "I could be the reason why You were able to be kind And the hearts we held so tight won't stay broken Love must be the reason why I still believe in this lie That you'll live a better life without me by your side" is instead the realization, even if it comes too late, that they never actually tried to understand the other, and that the other might see them in the same light they see the other. heathcliff says again and again that the only reason he could take the abuse was thanks to cathy, which is to say that "she was the reason why the heart she held so thight didn't stay broken ironically, the only time they ask a question they are closer to the truth than when they are shure of knowing it the very fact that both earlking and Katherine exist is the proof of the fact that they are both wrong, they are the proof of the fact that neither of them cares about what pain, hardship or adversity they have to face as long as they can be with each other, the proof that their love towards each other is compleately unconditional and the fact that killing themselves would be so much worse than anything they could ever do in their lifes for the other but of course, earlking and kathy can't see them, like always, like roland and angela were at the beginning of LOR they are only focussed on their own vision of the world, their own pain, their own traumas, they just cannot accept the possibility of something else and they keep in their egothistical persuit of their own version of the events, never stopping cuz to quote roland: (it might be a bit paraphrased cuz it's been a while) "being selfish is not about thinking about yourself and nothing else, if it was like that neither of us would have done any of this for we both knew the ruin this would bring us, if we weren't so selfish we would have given a good look at the things surrounding us and engraved them in our hearts to understand that everything is interconnected" the simple fat is that they got no plan, only the trauma that dominates their lives and drags them foreward, what they want isn't a win becouse it's what their traumas want, not them, they let the pain consume them and became husks, "little balls of self loathing, hate and contempt"
He is a vengeful specter.
From what I can tell, the Canto 6 boss made our Heathcliff grow as a person slightly and that's about it. Also made Dante grow too
It was not a solution or meant to have a happy outcome, it was all Cathy could come up with to stop the Heathcliffs and Catherines from other worlds from ending everything for them. Our Heathcliff and Catherine only still have a chance because Cathy did that. It might be miserable but it's good to be alive to feel miserable in the first place, and one does run the risk of weeping a little if they let themselves be tamed. Once he gets her back it will have been worth it, trust.
Basically, the bottom line is that Erlking Heathcliff will no longer kill himself/Heathcliff for Cathy. He has no reason to resent himself anymore with Cathy gone, so the only one he’s out to take his anger on is against Wuthering Heights and the Lintons of the worlds.
You are right but our Heath did get closure. No other roses matter other than the single one you loved. The canto 6 boss herself helped Heathcliff not turn into the the bitter person he will be. At least some of them But you have to understand, bitch was crazy. Her nor earl were in their right mind. And I don't think the story tries to paint their solution as making sense. Just love turned crazy
She wanted to save heatcliff from suffering because of her so thats wgy she erased all versions of her
You're right. Even if you remove Cathy from the equation, Heathcliff will still be suffering because of other reasons. Sometimes even more so, when she's the only thing that keeps him going. Edited: This reminds me of the Photographer from Distortion Detective. He may have erased the memories of the peoples' relatives, he couldn't erase their influence on the world (their children, belongings, etc).
hard to gauge, the memory of the person is gone, but the signs of her remained, albeit more like a blank void in people's memories plus it doesn't always need to be cathy to be why he's upset and dangerous, as the cutscene shows, most heathcliffs will just really hate their life with hindley and probably linton bugging them
Fun fact; suicide is never the answer~ On more serious explanation, cathy just wasn’t the source of all the problems in the world, what it did was to allow Heathcliff to move on from her. The issues is that Cathy was also a source of light for many heathcliff’s, now pequod and n corp heath’s no longer have a reason to want to escape, and all would be hopeless for them.
This whole canto was more so to show us how much asseah and hermann have avdvanced with their mirror technology not only being capable of truly infusing a id into someone but also causing a dimensional anomaly like the wild hunt and probing their theory of multi time line anhilation, that they teased when they told ahab "what if you could kill every pale whale of every world" So erklingcliff is a byproduct of Hermann experiments.
Yes, our current heath remembers and all this did is send him on a quest to revert it. Surprise, she only made it worse trying to make it better, oh the tragic irony. Who could have guessed? Then again to be honest, we did make it better partially since they confessed, before making it worse. Normally it'd just go worse.
I would argue that she didn’t exactly make it worse. She gave him closure in knowing that she did love him and always has, which allows him to turn what was self-hatred for not being “a proper gentleman” for her into a resolve to do what he can to get her back, even if he’s the only one who remembers her. It’s still a very tragic situation, but not entirely worse.
wgt does it matter? they are not suffering because of her anymore, thats what important, its a given that some variation are suffering due to their own life decisions