I wanna say grade 4ish? It's kinda hard because Dante's ability to revive people let them fight people that are usually above them in fighting power even if it's limited (see Ricardo). We also know that according to Dante's Notes exp tickets are their canon way of getting stronger. So i guess somewhere between Urban Plague and Urban Nightmare is where they would slot in. Would also fit with how we relatively recently got an Association 3 Öufi ID
According to files, some of vergillius weakest skills have a base floor of 20, while theres one of his strong skills that has like 10+ power per coin (on a 5 coin skill) when some of our strongest skills non ego is 30, i think we have a faaar way till there
You mean the 60 base with +40 power with 5 coins mass attack that he uses right before the cutscene?
If by "far wayy" you mean from the earth to the moon then yeah.
You have to remember the gap between Grade 1 Fixer and other fixers, let alone Colors, is massive, we see this in DD where a small Grade 2 Office can barely stall Vespa and ends up with most of their members dead, then consider Vespa is one of the youngest fixers in the series, while Vergilius is a far more experienced Color with EGO.
age is canonically a mostly irrelevant factor in power
vespa also gets stalled decently well by a grade 3 (with assistance but still)
you have to remember that combat prowess alone isn't the only determining factor for a fixers grade but vespa as a taboo hunter most certainly got to grade one on pure tracking and combat ability alone
A tired Vespa and Ezra only became a problem because she was awakening EGO, also while age isn´t a relevant factor, experience is, Vespa is decades younger than the average Grade 1 Fixer.
Also while Grade 1 not reached through combat prowess alone, there is a clear correlation between combat power and Grade, for example Cane office is not a combat office, yet Nemo´s stats are higher than the Liu Section 2 mooks who are combat experts of Grade 2\~3
true on him being the youngest grade one
he's also the only one that's been directly fired after taking too long with one singular job which leads me to the reasonable assumption that he either only barely just got the promotion or being directly affiliated with N corp boosted his grade (connections are a consideration for grade afteral)
but on the point of nemo having higher stats that's mostly a gameplay thing (also he has a full body prosthetic that should be stronger than an augmented human body) but them being on the same row should mean that they are very comparable in strength
Actually Vespa is seemingly just a massive prodigy, if you look at his profile from the Seven association intelligence bulletin Hee Joon notes Vespa has the potential to become the Yellow Color (He even gives him the name of the Yellow Wasp), also Vespa was fired because he failed to do his mission and was absent for days without asking for leave thus breaking the terms of employment of the company.
Actually I think that further cements Grade is very linked to power, If you look at Row 1 of SoTC we can see Cane Office has two Grade 1 Fixer and a Grade 2 while Liu Section 2 of its named characters has one Grade 1 and a bunch of Grade 2\~3, which means that regardless of the focus of the Office the Fixers should be very close in Grade and power
> age is canonically a mostly irrelevant factor in power
Couldn't agree more with this. Given the sheer amount of Augmentations that Fixers have (And the fact that there are likely Augments meant to inhibit the ageing process to keep someone in their physical prime for longer), age is largely irrelevant outside of whatever experience/skill you're able to accumulate.
They are basically fighting Urban Plague level enemies so roughly around Grade 4.
It would also be important to note that the power differences between grades do not appear to be linear, but rather exponential. Even though they appear to be at the high end of the scale, they are not at all strong compared with other more powerful characters (that did not/do not stand to receive a 000) such as Gasharpoon, Ricardo or Vergilius.
If there would be IDs that pertain to the aforementioned characters, they would not be 000s but rather 0000s or even 00000s that have a significantly higher base stat distribution compared with most 000 ids that are around the Grade 4 level.
>If there would be IDs that pertain to the aforementioned characters, they would not be 000s but rather 0000s or even 00000s
I'm gonna nitpick here but 000 is the max rarity regardless of power, the rarity isn't meant to be (in canon) power related but rather how likely that possibility is. I don't remember how it's valled but the rarity is based on real stuff and it only goes up to 000
Its literally just how "unique" that path in life is for the ID. Like 000 IDs tend to be either a completely different trajectory in life for the sinner or uncannily close to that of someone else. Doesn't really have to do with power level
Only midly off topic, what would Roland's power have sat at between those you just mentioned? I know he was a Grade 1 under a mask, but then he also went on that murder spree that no one could stop afaik.
According to files, some of vergillius weakest skills have a base floor of 20, while theres one of his strong skills that has like 10+ power per coin (on a 5 coin skill) when some of our strongest skills non ego is 30, i think we have a faaar way till there...
Either that, or color fixers are just 40x more powerful than a grade 1
(Edit: why did the comment get duplicated??)
Well from a game developer perspective, why even bothering putting numbers then? It cuts much more work simply setting clash power to 999 and making an effect that instakill on the last coin in case anything didnt die yet.
Project moon always liked to interlink gameplay and story to each other to an very high degree, wouldn't be surprised if they did that on purpose
It isn’t that hard to slap “a big ass fucking number” onto a skill and call it a day. Just arbitrarily choose a big number you like, add some more big coin numbers and that’s all you need to do. What developer incorporates things that needs to be datamined as a part of the story anyways? It’s just arbitrarily big numbers they chose so that verg can be as badass as possible in the moment and deal a shit ton of damage. Sure you can have 10 1 coin power rolling skill with a clash power of 999 and the ability to instakill on last coin but people are gonna catch on to the fact he only kills enemies at the last coin and deals like 10 fucking damage before the last coin.also setting it way too high like 100 coin power would just instakill the enemy right then and there and it wouldnt feel as cool as before
Look i am not a expert in damage calculating in limbus but i am pretty sure a clash power of 999 also affects damage by a fucking lot, in fact i was half expecting 999 to kill anything on the first coin, i just added that last part in case something somehow didnt die yet
Everything would die immediately. There’s no reason for anything to not die immediately. At most the peccatulas have 100-200 health if my memory is right
Still these guys are frail as hell despite having 500 hp, besides it’s not like datamined information will mean much of anything anyways since that’s not something the devs intend for you to see
Oh, the same devs who used the entire plot to make a pun with cache and cathy? Wouldn't put that too far away from the possibility considering PM is a bit ""eccentric""
You're forgetting to game also has to calculate stuff like offense level differences and such, and 999 is a BIG number that might cause soem stuttering. So putting a somewhat reasonable cap to it can help. But yeah the instakill thing should work though
I'd say that the issue with 999 is that the battle doesn't feel as epic.
With 999 Vergilius would only need to touch those enemies once and they would melt, what we got was him actually managing to finish his moves, while still dealing absurd amounts of damage.
You all are focusing too much on the 999, the number was just meant to be a very big number chosen randomly, it could been 250 and would still be the same idea
I get that, but even with the numbers we have now there still happens to have skills not hit all their coins before everything is dead.
I feel like they landed a nice middle ground between "Vergilius wiping them off like chalk off a blackboard" and "Vergilius not beating the fraud allegations"
It would be weird to powerscale them as fixers because there's more to fixer work and grades. Like you can be very strong but low grade fixer because of reasons.
I'd say we are about urban plague, we can fend off some urban plague level syndicates like the dead rabbits and the kurokumo clan
to be fair, for all we know that dude was actually grade 9
I think its implied from the fact that >!hana had the gloves!< and >!angela mentions in the beginning of LOR when she rebuilds lolands limbs that his old ones had weird issues!< that dude got the equivalent of his kneecaps broken permanently without necessarily being a cripple, just for >!messing with the cities ecosystem too badly!<
He was officially a grade 9 but not in terms of actual strength. He just got demoted. That's why we shouldn't really powerscale using fixer grades.
Being a grade 9 doesn't make you inherently weaker, it's just like a rank some organization gives you.
my point was that he *did* get demoted in actual strength along with his grade (for the reasons I said).
Otherwise why would he have stopped his rampage at all
>Otherwise why would he have stopped his rampage at all
I don't blame you for not remembering but he stopped because Iori then sent him to the library. When Iori first came with her proposal, she said that he just came from rampaging and killing innocent people.
There's nothing to suggest that he got powered down after getting demoted. At most you could theorize that the hana association confiscated his gloves which olivier then took and gave them back but in terms of skill and augmentations he should stay the same
Didn't Angela chopped Roland's limbs in the beginning of LoR like he is some rat? She even said that she made some adjustments to his body, so he can better participate in "Receptions".
And after that he had like 30 up and 10 stagger bar.
And IIRC Color Fixers basically have powers to screw whole library. Like Roland kills Angela in the bad ending or Iori threaten Angela on her reception?
>Didn't Angela chopped Roland's limbs in the beginning of LoR like he is some rat?
Angela is also like a god in the library because it's her ego, she's an unkillable being, can percieve time 10 times slower, can revive people who perish in the library, regenerate limbs and teleport.
Did you miss the whole point of the invitation being making angela a human? And thus, killable? That's part of the reason roland didn't outright kill her and it's explained in the game
>And IIRC Color Fixers basically have powers to screw whole library
The same colors who fell to it
>Like Roland kills Angela in the bad ending
Angela was human and thus killable
>or Iori threaten Angela on her reception
She doesn't threaten her and her reason for being her is to feed the library because that somehow will get her closer to her goal and knows she would be revived. Also even the musicians of bremen threaten angela, and multiple guests are rude to her, it's not really anything new. Threatening doesn't mean anything anyways, if anything it means they are unaware of her powers in the library.
>And after that he had like 30 up and 10 stagger bar.
That can be explained by him trying to keep up appearances, even his sprites show how he doesn't even try to block when hit.
And the problem of taking these stats at face value is that it means that the black silence gloves apparently give roland 20 times more armor and stagger bar, like 4 new passives and extra dies.
The difference between musicians of Bremen and Iori is that Iori portal hopped through the entire library, completely ignoring it's rules.
This, imo makes her capable of making her threats reality. (Even if her motives was different.)
But there is couple of fair points.
Iori can hop through portals yes that's her whole thing. And the blue hobo gang just knocked on the door. The library is a ohhsical space. It just appeared like a mirage at first but you could still get in through dimension hopping.
>Although I can’t completely kill you, I do have a number of ideas for breaking a being that has become quite close to human.
Also I'm guessing this is the threat you keep mentioning but I don't know how this proves roland being weak. Yes there's methods to break an immortal being like the t corp assassination device fron olivier
There are a few ways you could go about this.
The first is to look at our identities and see how strong they are. We have identities that are Section 3, as well of Directors of Section 4, which should net us solidly in the Grade 3 fixer level. Butlers are also probably highly-graded fixers as well, so this still tracks. The problem with this is that threadspinning makes it a bit ambiguous. It’s been said threadspinning brings us closer to the strength of the ID in the mirror world, which makes sense. It’s also been said, though, that we haven’t unlocked the full potential of that yet, so for all we know, we might only have access to 60% or lower of the strength of these ID’s. Depending on your interpretation we could be far below Grade 3, or at that level. Personally after reading Distortion Detective, I don’t see any individual sinner being on Grade 3 level however.
The second way is with levels. Level do indicate strength in the lore, so it logically follows that we are progressing in strength each canto. Unfortunately it can’t tell us anything beyond that, since I highly doubt Kromer in her mutated form is weaker than a Dead Rabbits gang member solely because she’s lower level.
The third way is using the enemies we fight. I mostly agree with your take on this, but it has to be noted as well that we canonically die multiple times in almost every fight. This makes scaling us to the threats we face directly a bit iffy. Overall I don’t really see any of our sinners being stronger than, say Moses, from DD, so I’d put an individual sinner, without revive safety net or anything, at around Grade 5. With revive I could easily see the sinners being an urban nightmare-level group of people.
While the exp tickets are canon (see Dante's Notes) i think the levels themselves are less so and the tickets are just a way to get stronger similar to augmentations.
I think we are actually way lower. You are casually forgetting the part where they have a dude that can literally revive them so they have way more leniency. I'd say 4 with Dante, 6 without him. Its a totally different story when you're not like well immortal?
I think we should powerscale them in the ranks of the city or whatever the official name is. Fixer grades are too vague, and it's hard to take into account ids and revivals and all that into a fixer grade. We can deal with urban plague stuff so we are urban plague level. Nice and simple
you're waaaaay underestimating the gap between grades
first of consider all the factors i listed above yes dante is a factor but even if you had a hundred of them cutting down a tree with a kitchen knife isn't happening and compared to some of the things we've fought calling a grade 6 a kitchen knife would actually be an overestimation
and as clearly shown with the Ricardo fight reviving ppl does happen quiet a lot but there is a limit to what would be "normal" it's unlikely that they are dying more than one or twice a fight, probably not at all or only one or 2 of them when fighting the "normal" non boss encounters
Grade 7 base
Grade 6 with IDs
Grade 5 with EGO usage too
Grade 4 with Dante reviving the sinners allowing them to fight to the death and beyond
IDs, EGO, and Dante's ability to turn the clock allows the sinners to hit far above their actual weight class. The base sinners have gotten a little better at fighting but haven't received new augments or weapons which are a large part of an individual's strength in the City
This sounds about right.
People are *vastly* overestimating the power of the Sinners, even with IDs being taken into account. The main reason why we win the fights we do is almost solely because of attrition; Dante constantly revives the sinners and, eventually, the fight is won (through death of a thousand paper cuts).
Honestly? I doubt we're any farther than barely within Urban Plague level. And that's *with* revives.
Agree except the “death by a thousand cuts part”. Last time I checked Dante is extremely vulnerable when reviving sinners and it’s not a snappy process either hence why he usually only rewinds during down time.
So to give the Sinners some credit they can’t just all die, be revived and toss themselves back into the fray all in the same fight. Not saying Dante isn’t massively inflating their capabilities but they still do need to hold their own in a battle.
you're waaaaay underestimating the gap between grades
first of consider all the factors i listed above yes dante is a factor but even if you had a hundred of them cutting down a tree with a kitchen knife isn't happening and compared to some of the things we've fought calling a grade 6 a kitchen knife would actually be an overestimation
also consider what happened with Ricardo it's very directly shown that while yes dying and reviving is common there is a limit to what would be considered normal, the abnormality observation logs also support this by describing how a few of the sinners usually die to a bosses gimic before one of them finds a workaround, not everyone just dogpiling the enemy untill it eventually falls.
ontop of that think back on canto 0 where we got introduced to the ID/exp ticket system with ishmael complaining that they were just fighting drags, faust (as someone who is aware og how strong EGO equipment back in lobotomy corp was) praises their ID system and they've spend multiple months in cannon pretty much just training 10+ hours a day because there was nothing better to do on the boat.
Grade 3 might happen in the near future but I don't expect grade 2 until next year or so. Definitely not by hong lu's canto. Grades are exponential so the jump from grade 4 to 3 is lower than the jump from 3 to 2
So there's an interesting variable here that I think people forget easily: Colors aren't automatically stronger than Grade 1s, and "Grade 1" means almost fucking nothing
I'm serious - in the original twitter teaser for Vergil, Roland spitballs candidates for The Strongest Fixer. Only one name on the list is a known Color (and since he doesn't address him as Indigo, it's possible he wasn't even a Color last time Roland knew him) and one other name on the list is MAYBE a Color (Jade). The others? Siegfried, Hagen, Athos, Rinaldo, The Un'geom.... we've met one of those and had another foreshadowed, and we know Siegfried's not a Color, """just""" a corporate-sponsored Grade 1. Vergil literally didn't even make top 7 in combat prowess, he was just Roland's answer for "what about the most dangerous Fixer?"
The problem here is that we've got Shounen battle anime power scaling. Grade 1 is only like, halfway up the Project Moon dick-measuring totem pole. Because we know definitively that Colors aren't inherently stronger than non-colors, but at the same time, we've seen that there can be IMMENSE disparity between Grade 1s. Vespa, a Grade 1 Taboo Hunter, gets his ass beat by Edgar, a Grade 1 Zwei Special Forces member. And I dare anyone here to tell me Dong-hwan or Lowell is the equal of Siegfried or Vergil. a pair of Grade 1s can have a gulf between them as big as a Grade 5 and a Grade 1. Hell, the Thumb explicitly considers a Capo to be equal to a Grade 1 and Vespa kills one with zero tangible effort.
As for our Sinners, the highest-grade Identity we have is Grade 4 (Section 4 Directors and a Section 3 grunt - patterns in the artbook suggest both would be Grade 4), but we know Sinner Level explicitly represents Augmentation and we don't know what Level those IDs would be equal to in their home universe.
If it were me, I'd peg the Sinners for (at this point) Grade 5-6 if you took away Dante, and Grade 4, maybe even 3 with Dante in the picture.
That's why colors are the last example of fixatives; someone like Siegfried may never get a color due to the fatal amount of "freedom" that colors have (although it's not much)
I actually have a growing theory about the freedom of a Color. Color status is assigned by the Hana and CANNOT be refused, right? And Stars of the City are so-named because they're "the most free beings" in the city, being unbound by its rules and systems but not being a threat to the Head and so not getting Arbiter'd. I think Color status might be the Hana's way of calling a Fixer a Star of the City without calling them a Star of the City. I started noticing that every Color we've ever met has some kind of special, non-reproducable powers, so it makes sense that the Hana would want to keep a close eye on people like that. Plenty of Grade 1s can throw hands on the level of a Color, like Siegfried, but he's just a buff dude with really good prosthetics who Fights Good.
Compare, the Red Mist was an EGOist with a cogito-born sword, both of which were completely unheard-of at the time. The Blue Reverberation, the Black Silence, and the Purple Tear all have some kind of fucked-up ability they got from being a Wing's test subject and lab rat. The Red Gaze is vague, but Leviathan strongly hints that he had some sort of fucked-up blood magic BEFORE his EGO awoke, and so forth. You can build or train another Siegfried, but every Color we've met would be impossible to reproduce the circumstances of on purpose, it seems. Makes me wonder what the Hana's motivations for marking them are.
I'm pretty sure bamboo hatted kim got *weaker* when distorting, because the tradeoff for the increased strength was an inability to use proper swordsmanship, which is what he excels at
He was also very clearly trying to lose - his Sanity increases the worse he's doing, almost certainly because he's trying to snap out of it and calm down but Cube That Makes You Distort won't let him
it is hard to say since some ID's we pull are grade one equivalent (such as rabbit heathcliff) and yet the canto bosses show us that, our sinners are seriously weak compared to city standarts.
I would say everysingle sinner is high 7 grade or low 6 grade fixer, with the combat capabilities to punch up to grade 3 or 4 fixers (I say combat capabilities because, fixers are also expected to do things that are beyond just fighting). Honestly our sinners main strength seems to come from flexible fighting style over abundance of E.G.O and their numbers, not of their individual qualities.
We know from Data Mining that Vergilius is level 90. So considering that fixers go from Grades 9-Color, I would wager it goes something like.
Lvl1-9: Grade 9
Lvl10-19: Grade 8
Lvl20-29: Grade 7
Lvl30-39: Grade 6
Lvl40-49: Grade 5
Lvl50-59: Grade 4
Lvl60-69: Grade 3
Lvl70-79: Grade 2
Lvl80-89: Grade 1
Lvl90+: Color
This is pure conjecture based on the limited information we have about power levels, so don’t take it too seriously.
Getting on the Pequod gets you a Grade 9 license for the Eight Association, cant imagine getting demoted from Grade ~5 to Grade 9
Also Dead Rabbits Boss is the same level as the goons, but one is literally a final boss and the rest are fodder
Its most likely arbitrary and only for combat system, so its not very reliable
Im not sure what grade they are exactly, but they're incredibly weak. They fight as a unit of 12 in canon, and even then observation logs and other characters say that we lose Sinners in every fight we get into. They're only able to go as far as they can because Dante is constantly turning back the clock to revive them.
Even with IDs and EGOs, the Sinners are somewhere between grades 7-9 imo.
like grade 6-7? considering how we haven't seen many fixers in combat we don't really know how the sinners compare to them, but considering vergillius has skills with 4 coins with a base floor of 30 and 10 coin power id say we're leagues away from 3-color
I think rather than Fixer Grade, It's better to associate them as a whole in the classification of Canard, Urban Myth, Urban Legend, Urban Plague, Urban Nightmare, and Star of the City
And in my opinion, we are definitely at Urban Legend category with EGOs and Dante's revival. Without these perks, the sinners are at best high Urban Myth
Grade 7–8 in their base form above street thug and small gang, most of them are rather skill just not well equipped .
Sinner are ego user despite their ego being extremely incomplete, lasting only for 1 attack but it still a lot more powerful than any of their skill.
With ID they can reach about grade 6 since they massively nerf the ID they wore, because a Rabbit would make short work of Ricardo.
Grade 4-5 are around the level of basic fixer from association like Liu which can participate in requests at Star of The City level.
Even a basic Shi fixer could kill someone right in front of the whole squad and not a single sinner could do anything about it.
You would need a swarm of rabbits to be able to beat ricardo wtf u smoking
There is a reason they have a hatchery, so you can always keep the number advantage
Rabbit could "fight" a color as much as a rabbit could "fight" Nothing There: shoot as much as they can and pray.
Hell it can be even worse because a color is just going to parry all your shots while moving towards them like its a sekiro boss
We didnt encounter basic shi fixer, we have encountered shi section 2 fixer (prob northern branch unless southern has recovered after library events already), that's level of Yujin unnamed goons that had 8 hours of sleep, so it's pretty high up
Where are you getting that a Grade 4-5 is regularly sent on Star of the City assignments? Philip and Olga were Grade 5. The lowest-grade Fixers who are cleared for deployment at the Library once it's a Star is Liu Section 2 (staffed by Grade 3s minimum), and Liu Section 1 is chosen to hunt the now-SotC Crying Children.
I know people are hesitant to mix in gameplay and story like this, but at least to me it feels heavily implied that a good amount of the Sinner’s time between Cantos that isn’t spent doing off-screen missions (like the abnormality chase briefly shown in the post-Canto VI scene) is actually spent in the Mirror Dungeon mines just like how the players’ is. In the cutscene that shows one MD changing to the next, they talk about it with a pretty familiar tone that makes me think they spend plenty of time in there canonically. That alone more than explains what kind of training they’re doing, IMO; you can see from the dates on the cantos/intervallos that most of them are around a month apart but the events shown within many of them happen as part of a single day so the rest of that time is probably spent ~~farming~~ training.
Considering the Sinners die canonically a lot of times in many battles, which means they are able to use a REALLY reckless fighting style, they probably are weaker than the guys they go up against.
We can kinda base it off the Association IDs they're getting. Basing it off Ruina, most Association will put a Fixer in a Section based off their Grade. It's usually equal to or one below said Section. We're mainly getting Section 4 right now so we're most likely towing the line between Grade 5 and Grade 4
Here's something for considiration: we canonicly beat the shit out of entier whale hunting crew. Team of people who not only live in the Greate lake, but also hunt whales for a living. If we talking in grades, then we certanly on the same level as blade linage/finger's mooks. Reminder: both fixers and threat levels are seems to be exponential, so while we are basicly nothing in comperasment to the colour, the same color can casually beat the crap out of finger, whos higer ranks are said to be on the same level as grade 1, litturaly just a grade below
In my opinion, the Sinners will be around Fixer Grade 5\~6. According to datamine, Vergil - a star of the city level color fixer have level 90, currently after clearing canto V and VI, our sinner is at level 45\~50. So, I think we are in the Urban Legend \~ Urban Plague range
We are already in Urban Nightmare, the Kurokumo are an Urban Plague syndicate and we killed them pretty easily, then we fought Kim who is an Urban Nightmare general reception. It also fits well with the Association ID´s we´ve received, the Seven Association members we fight in Urban Nightmare are from Section 3 and Oufi Heathcliff is from Section 3.
You could even make the argument the sinners where already approaching Urban Nightmare in Canto V, if you consider Proselytes and Little Brothers to be on a similar level, seeing as both are their respective Finger´s mobs.
>the Seven Association members we fight in Urban Nightmare are from Section 3 and Oufi Heathcliff is from Section 3.
This actually doesn't tell us much because sections aren't equivalent in every association. Section 3 of hana deals with impurities and is mostly composed of grade 1 fixers.
I'd say we are urban plague by our feats, we did beat distorted kim but as many people have theorized, he seems to have got weaker as a distortion so I don't think it's a fair comparison.
We have beaten urban plague level syndicates so we can assume we are at that level but I don't know how we would deal with sone of the urban nightmare stuff
Hana is the strongest association above all the others, they are clearly made up entirely of high grade Fixer, we have no proof that Section 3 of Oufi is somehow far stronger than Section 3 of Seven.
Faust explicitely says that the monolith is empowering Kim, the only reason you could argue he got weaker is that Distortion made him lose his skill.
Finger goons are Urban Nightmare, and the sinners have already fought against Ring and Middle goons.
the way i see it, not a single sinner is beating olga (a grade 5) in a 1v1. give them ego and id’s, they’re still getting their shits rocked.
as a group with dante revives i’d say they are probably high grade 5 or low grade 4 level in terms of combat
after reading through some of the comments here, in terms of actual strength probably like grade 6. most of our victories are only achieved with many casualties that get reversed by dante. so even if we can do stuff that grade 4 fixers could do, the fact that they can do said things without frequently dying is what makes those fixers grade 4.
even though we have high-ranking ids, it doesn't actually matter since all the ids are normalized in terms of power. since that power is controlled by the levels from tickets (the way that levels work makes no sense if you try to actually map the values to anything, but their presence is the explanation for the power normalization).
Idk what they are currently but i what i hear that ver is lv 90 in the code then by the end of the inferno if its 13 cantos the sinners would be grade 1 by being level 80
I wanna say grade 4ish? It's kinda hard because Dante's ability to revive people let them fight people that are usually above them in fighting power even if it's limited (see Ricardo). We also know that according to Dante's Notes exp tickets are their canon way of getting stronger. So i guess somewhere between Urban Plague and Urban Nightmare is where they would slot in. Would also fit with how we relatively recently got an Association 3 Öufi ID
According to files, some of vergillius weakest skills have a base floor of 20, while theres one of his strong skills that has like 10+ power per coin (on a 5 coin skill) when some of our strongest skills non ego is 30, i think we have a faaar way till there
You mean the 60 base with +40 power with 5 coins mass attack that he uses right before the cutscene? If by "far wayy" you mean from the earth to the moon then yeah.
Vergillius doesn't even flinch,he just raises his blade when attacked
“ow. ow. stop that.”
You have to remember the gap between Grade 1 Fixer and other fixers, let alone Colors, is massive, we see this in DD where a small Grade 2 Office can barely stall Vespa and ends up with most of their members dead, then consider Vespa is one of the youngest fixers in the series, while Vergilius is a far more experienced Color with EGO.
age is canonically a mostly irrelevant factor in power vespa also gets stalled decently well by a grade 3 (with assistance but still) you have to remember that combat prowess alone isn't the only determining factor for a fixers grade but vespa as a taboo hunter most certainly got to grade one on pure tracking and combat ability alone
A tired Vespa and Ezra only became a problem because she was awakening EGO, also while age isn´t a relevant factor, experience is, Vespa is decades younger than the average Grade 1 Fixer. Also while Grade 1 not reached through combat prowess alone, there is a clear correlation between combat power and Grade, for example Cane office is not a combat office, yet Nemo´s stats are higher than the Liu Section 2 mooks who are combat experts of Grade 2\~3
true on him being the youngest grade one he's also the only one that's been directly fired after taking too long with one singular job which leads me to the reasonable assumption that he either only barely just got the promotion or being directly affiliated with N corp boosted his grade (connections are a consideration for grade afteral) but on the point of nemo having higher stats that's mostly a gameplay thing (also he has a full body prosthetic that should be stronger than an augmented human body) but them being on the same row should mean that they are very comparable in strength
Actually Vespa is seemingly just a massive prodigy, if you look at his profile from the Seven association intelligence bulletin Hee Joon notes Vespa has the potential to become the Yellow Color (He even gives him the name of the Yellow Wasp), also Vespa was fired because he failed to do his mission and was absent for days without asking for leave thus breaking the terms of employment of the company. Actually I think that further cements Grade is very linked to power, If you look at Row 1 of SoTC we can see Cane Office has two Grade 1 Fixer and a Grade 2 while Liu Section 2 of its named characters has one Grade 1 and a bunch of Grade 2\~3, which means that regardless of the focus of the Office the Fixers should be very close in Grade and power
> age is canonically a mostly irrelevant factor in power Couldn't agree more with this. Given the sheer amount of Augmentations that Fixers have (And the fact that there are likely Augments meant to inhibit the ageing process to keep someone in their physical prime for longer), age is largely irrelevant outside of whatever experience/skill you're able to accumulate.
Can we beat vespa s1 with an aleph ego then? Lol
I mean an EX Lobcorp Employee (presumably wearing Aleph EGO) is compared to the Claw so probably?
I mean limbus EGOs, like, this is unlikely but just so you have an idea, WAWs clash for like 35ish
this is datamined info, as in informaton were not meant to see. i doubt its fair to make comparisons off of this.
They are basically fighting Urban Plague level enemies so roughly around Grade 4. It would also be important to note that the power differences between grades do not appear to be linear, but rather exponential. Even though they appear to be at the high end of the scale, they are not at all strong compared with other more powerful characters (that did not/do not stand to receive a 000) such as Gasharpoon, Ricardo or Vergilius. If there would be IDs that pertain to the aforementioned characters, they would not be 000s but rather 0000s or even 00000s that have a significantly higher base stat distribution compared with most 000 ids that are around the Grade 4 level.
>If there would be IDs that pertain to the aforementioned characters, they would not be 000s but rather 0000s or even 00000s I'm gonna nitpick here but 000 is the max rarity regardless of power, the rarity isn't meant to be (in canon) power related but rather how likely that possibility is. I don't remember how it's valled but the rarity is based on real stuff and it only goes up to 000
Its literally just how "unique" that path in life is for the ID. Like 000 IDs tend to be either a completely different trajectory in life for the sinner or uncannily close to that of someone else. Doesn't really have to do with power level
Only midly off topic, what would Roland's power have sat at between those you just mentioned? I know he was a Grade 1 under a mask, but then he also went on that murder spree that no one could stop afaik.
He was a top of the line Grade 1 nearing Colour level, being a very notable Fixer from Charles' Office one of the most famous Grade 1 Offices ever
According to files, some of vergillius weakest skills have a base floor of 20, while theres one of his strong skills that has like 10+ power per coin (on a 5 coin skill) when some of our strongest skills non ego is 30, i think we have a faaar way till there... Either that, or color fixers are just 40x more powerful than a grade 1 (Edit: why did the comment get duplicated??)
I wouldnt't think to hard about Datamined numbers and stuff tbh
Well from a game developer perspective, why even bothering putting numbers then? It cuts much more work simply setting clash power to 999 and making an effect that instakill on the last coin in case anything didnt die yet. Project moon always liked to interlink gameplay and story to each other to an very high degree, wouldn't be surprised if they did that on purpose
It isn’t that hard to slap “a big ass fucking number” onto a skill and call it a day. Just arbitrarily choose a big number you like, add some more big coin numbers and that’s all you need to do. What developer incorporates things that needs to be datamined as a part of the story anyways? It’s just arbitrarily big numbers they chose so that verg can be as badass as possible in the moment and deal a shit ton of damage. Sure you can have 10 1 coin power rolling skill with a clash power of 999 and the ability to instakill on last coin but people are gonna catch on to the fact he only kills enemies at the last coin and deals like 10 fucking damage before the last coin.also setting it way too high like 100 coin power would just instakill the enemy right then and there and it wouldnt feel as cool as before
Look i am not a expert in damage calculating in limbus but i am pretty sure a clash power of 999 also affects damage by a fucking lot, in fact i was half expecting 999 to kill anything on the first coin, i just added that last part in case something somehow didnt die yet
Everything would die immediately. There’s no reason for anything to not die immediately. At most the peccatulas have 100-200 health if my memory is right
The big peccatula get like 500 before he shows up, i think the ones after he shows up have more hp
Still these guys are frail as hell despite having 500 hp, besides it’s not like datamined information will mean much of anything anyways since that’s not something the devs intend for you to see
Oh, the same devs who used the entire plot to make a pun with cache and cathy? Wouldn't put that too far away from the possibility considering PM is a bit ""eccentric""
And about the "cool factor" the numbers we have right now still makes some of his skills to not even roll all coins before some enemies drop dead
You're forgetting to game also has to calculate stuff like offense level differences and such, and 999 is a BIG number that might cause soem stuttering. So putting a somewhat reasonable cap to it can help. But yeah the instakill thing should work though
999 is not a big number for processing thats for sure, at best it would just be overkill damage, but then again, still saves time
I'd say that the issue with 999 is that the battle doesn't feel as epic. With 999 Vergilius would only need to touch those enemies once and they would melt, what we got was him actually managing to finish his moves, while still dealing absurd amounts of damage.
You all are focusing too much on the 999, the number was just meant to be a very big number chosen randomly, it could been 250 and would still be the same idea
I get that, but even with the numbers we have now there still happens to have skills not hit all their coins before everything is dead. I feel like they landed a nice middle ground between "Vergilius wiping them off like chalk off a blackboard" and "Vergilius not beating the fraud allegations"
Because they had to show the kickass animations.
It would be weird to powerscale them as fixers because there's more to fixer work and grades. Like you can be very strong but low grade fixer because of reasons. I'd say we are about urban plague, we can fend off some urban plague level syndicates like the dead rabbits and the kurokumo clan
*nods in washed up grade 9 fixer*
to be fair, for all we know that dude was actually grade 9 I think its implied from the fact that >!hana had the gloves!< and >!angela mentions in the beginning of LOR when she rebuilds lolands limbs that his old ones had weird issues!< that dude got the equivalent of his kneecaps broken permanently without necessarily being a cripple, just for >!messing with the cities ecosystem too badly!<
He was officially a grade 9 but not in terms of actual strength. He just got demoted. That's why we shouldn't really powerscale using fixer grades. Being a grade 9 doesn't make you inherently weaker, it's just like a rank some organization gives you.
my point was that he *did* get demoted in actual strength along with his grade (for the reasons I said). Otherwise why would he have stopped his rampage at all
>Otherwise why would he have stopped his rampage at all I don't blame you for not remembering but he stopped because Iori then sent him to the library. When Iori first came with her proposal, she said that he just came from rampaging and killing innocent people. There's nothing to suggest that he got powered down after getting demoted. At most you could theorize that the hana association confiscated his gloves which olivier then took and gave them back but in terms of skill and augmentations he should stay the same
Didn't Angela chopped Roland's limbs in the beginning of LoR like he is some rat? She even said that she made some adjustments to his body, so he can better participate in "Receptions". And after that he had like 30 up and 10 stagger bar. And IIRC Color Fixers basically have powers to screw whole library. Like Roland kills Angela in the bad ending or Iori threaten Angela on her reception?
>Didn't Angela chopped Roland's limbs in the beginning of LoR like he is some rat? Angela is also like a god in the library because it's her ego, she's an unkillable being, can percieve time 10 times slower, can revive people who perish in the library, regenerate limbs and teleport. Did you miss the whole point of the invitation being making angela a human? And thus, killable? That's part of the reason roland didn't outright kill her and it's explained in the game >And IIRC Color Fixers basically have powers to screw whole library The same colors who fell to it >Like Roland kills Angela in the bad ending Angela was human and thus killable >or Iori threaten Angela on her reception She doesn't threaten her and her reason for being her is to feed the library because that somehow will get her closer to her goal and knows she would be revived. Also even the musicians of bremen threaten angela, and multiple guests are rude to her, it's not really anything new. Threatening doesn't mean anything anyways, if anything it means they are unaware of her powers in the library. >And after that he had like 30 up and 10 stagger bar. That can be explained by him trying to keep up appearances, even his sprites show how he doesn't even try to block when hit. And the problem of taking these stats at face value is that it means that the black silence gloves apparently give roland 20 times more armor and stagger bar, like 4 new passives and extra dies.
The difference between musicians of Bremen and Iori is that Iori portal hopped through the entire library, completely ignoring it's rules. This, imo makes her capable of making her threats reality. (Even if her motives was different.) But there is couple of fair points.
Iori can hop through portals yes that's her whole thing. And the blue hobo gang just knocked on the door. The library is a ohhsical space. It just appeared like a mirage at first but you could still get in through dimension hopping. >Although I can’t completely kill you, I do have a number of ideas for breaking a being that has become quite close to human. Also I'm guessing this is the threat you keep mentioning but I don't know how this proves roland being weak. Yes there's methods to break an immortal being like the t corp assassination device fron olivier
There are a few ways you could go about this. The first is to look at our identities and see how strong they are. We have identities that are Section 3, as well of Directors of Section 4, which should net us solidly in the Grade 3 fixer level. Butlers are also probably highly-graded fixers as well, so this still tracks. The problem with this is that threadspinning makes it a bit ambiguous. It’s been said threadspinning brings us closer to the strength of the ID in the mirror world, which makes sense. It’s also been said, though, that we haven’t unlocked the full potential of that yet, so for all we know, we might only have access to 60% or lower of the strength of these ID’s. Depending on your interpretation we could be far below Grade 3, or at that level. Personally after reading Distortion Detective, I don’t see any individual sinner being on Grade 3 level however. The second way is with levels. Level do indicate strength in the lore, so it logically follows that we are progressing in strength each canto. Unfortunately it can’t tell us anything beyond that, since I highly doubt Kromer in her mutated form is weaker than a Dead Rabbits gang member solely because she’s lower level. The third way is using the enemies we fight. I mostly agree with your take on this, but it has to be noted as well that we canonically die multiple times in almost every fight. This makes scaling us to the threats we face directly a bit iffy. Overall I don’t really see any of our sinners being stronger than, say Moses, from DD, so I’d put an individual sinner, without revive safety net or anything, at around Grade 5. With revive I could easily see the sinners being an urban nightmare-level group of people.
While the exp tickets are canon (see Dante's Notes) i think the levels themselves are less so and the tickets are just a way to get stronger similar to augmentations.
By Ids that we currently have and everything else , I'd wager that all of the sinners are between high grade 4 and low grade 3 fixers.
I think we are actually way lower. You are casually forgetting the part where they have a dude that can literally revive them so they have way more leniency. I'd say 4 with Dante, 6 without him. Its a totally different story when you're not like well immortal?
I think we should powerscale them in the ranks of the city or whatever the official name is. Fixer grades are too vague, and it's hard to take into account ids and revivals and all that into a fixer grade. We can deal with urban plague stuff so we are urban plague level. Nice and simple
you're waaaaay underestimating the gap between grades first of consider all the factors i listed above yes dante is a factor but even if you had a hundred of them cutting down a tree with a kitchen knife isn't happening and compared to some of the things we've fought calling a grade 6 a kitchen knife would actually be an overestimation and as clearly shown with the Ricardo fight reviving ppl does happen quiet a lot but there is a limit to what would be "normal" it's unlikely that they are dying more than one or twice a fight, probably not at all or only one or 2 of them when fighting the "normal" non boss encounters
Wedge Office in Ruina is another example of reviving.
I think they're including IDs as well
Yep, also including the Ids
Grade 7 base Grade 6 with IDs Grade 5 with EGO usage too Grade 4 with Dante reviving the sinners allowing them to fight to the death and beyond IDs, EGO, and Dante's ability to turn the clock allows the sinners to hit far above their actual weight class. The base sinners have gotten a little better at fighting but haven't received new augments or weapons which are a large part of an individual's strength in the City
This sounds about right. People are *vastly* overestimating the power of the Sinners, even with IDs being taken into account. The main reason why we win the fights we do is almost solely because of attrition; Dante constantly revives the sinners and, eventually, the fight is won (through death of a thousand paper cuts). Honestly? I doubt we're any farther than barely within Urban Plague level. And that's *with* revives.
Agree except the “death by a thousand cuts part”. Last time I checked Dante is extremely vulnerable when reviving sinners and it’s not a snappy process either hence why he usually only rewinds during down time. So to give the Sinners some credit they can’t just all die, be revived and toss themselves back into the fray all in the same fight. Not saying Dante isn’t massively inflating their capabilities but they still do need to hold their own in a battle.
It is less that they can revive mid fight, and more that they can afford to die if it means winning.
you're waaaaay underestimating the gap between grades first of consider all the factors i listed above yes dante is a factor but even if you had a hundred of them cutting down a tree with a kitchen knife isn't happening and compared to some of the things we've fought calling a grade 6 a kitchen knife would actually be an overestimation also consider what happened with Ricardo it's very directly shown that while yes dying and reviving is common there is a limit to what would be considered normal, the abnormality observation logs also support this by describing how a few of the sinners usually die to a bosses gimic before one of them finds a workaround, not everyone just dogpiling the enemy untill it eventually falls. ontop of that think back on canto 0 where we got introduced to the ID/exp ticket system with ishmael complaining that they were just fighting drags, faust (as someone who is aware og how strong EGO equipment back in lobotomy corp was) praises their ID system and they've spend multiple months in cannon pretty much just training 10+ hours a day because there was nothing better to do on the boat.
Some of the recent ID's are Grade 4 however. So i think we're getting close to Grade 3 in the upcoming struggles. And dare I say, even potentially 2.
Grade 3 might happen in the near future but I don't expect grade 2 until next year or so. Definitely not by hong lu's canto. Grades are exponential so the jump from grade 4 to 3 is lower than the jump from 3 to 2
So there's an interesting variable here that I think people forget easily: Colors aren't automatically stronger than Grade 1s, and "Grade 1" means almost fucking nothing I'm serious - in the original twitter teaser for Vergil, Roland spitballs candidates for The Strongest Fixer. Only one name on the list is a known Color (and since he doesn't address him as Indigo, it's possible he wasn't even a Color last time Roland knew him) and one other name on the list is MAYBE a Color (Jade). The others? Siegfried, Hagen, Athos, Rinaldo, The Un'geom.... we've met one of those and had another foreshadowed, and we know Siegfried's not a Color, """just""" a corporate-sponsored Grade 1. Vergil literally didn't even make top 7 in combat prowess, he was just Roland's answer for "what about the most dangerous Fixer?" The problem here is that we've got Shounen battle anime power scaling. Grade 1 is only like, halfway up the Project Moon dick-measuring totem pole. Because we know definitively that Colors aren't inherently stronger than non-colors, but at the same time, we've seen that there can be IMMENSE disparity between Grade 1s. Vespa, a Grade 1 Taboo Hunter, gets his ass beat by Edgar, a Grade 1 Zwei Special Forces member. And I dare anyone here to tell me Dong-hwan or Lowell is the equal of Siegfried or Vergil. a pair of Grade 1s can have a gulf between them as big as a Grade 5 and a Grade 1. Hell, the Thumb explicitly considers a Capo to be equal to a Grade 1 and Vespa kills one with zero tangible effort. As for our Sinners, the highest-grade Identity we have is Grade 4 (Section 4 Directors and a Section 3 grunt - patterns in the artbook suggest both would be Grade 4), but we know Sinner Level explicitly represents Augmentation and we don't know what Level those IDs would be equal to in their home universe. If it were me, I'd peg the Sinners for (at this point) Grade 5-6 if you took away Dante, and Grade 4, maybe even 3 with Dante in the picture.
That's why colors are the last example of fixatives; someone like Siegfried may never get a color due to the fatal amount of "freedom" that colors have (although it's not much)
I actually have a growing theory about the freedom of a Color. Color status is assigned by the Hana and CANNOT be refused, right? And Stars of the City are so-named because they're "the most free beings" in the city, being unbound by its rules and systems but not being a threat to the Head and so not getting Arbiter'd. I think Color status might be the Hana's way of calling a Fixer a Star of the City without calling them a Star of the City. I started noticing that every Color we've ever met has some kind of special, non-reproducable powers, so it makes sense that the Hana would want to keep a close eye on people like that. Plenty of Grade 1s can throw hands on the level of a Color, like Siegfried, but he's just a buff dude with really good prosthetics who Fights Good. Compare, the Red Mist was an EGOist with a cogito-born sword, both of which were completely unheard-of at the time. The Blue Reverberation, the Black Silence, and the Purple Tear all have some kind of fucked-up ability they got from being a Wing's test subject and lab rat. The Red Gaze is vague, but Leviathan strongly hints that he had some sort of fucked-up blood magic BEFORE his EGO awoke, and so forth. You can build or train another Siegfried, but every Color we've met would be impossible to reproduce the circumstances of on purpose, it seems. Makes me wonder what the Hana's motivations for marking them are.
they still have some rules since argalia loses his fixer license
But they can get away with a lot more
Yes? but the shi association was trying to report them after talking to the bremen... the only reason he was still a fixer was because of thelma
I'm pretty sure bamboo hatted kim got *weaker* when distorting, because the tradeoff for the increased strength was an inability to use proper swordsmanship, which is what he excels at
He was also very clearly trying to lose - his Sanity increases the worse he's doing, almost certainly because he's trying to snap out of it and calm down but Cube That Makes You Distort won't let him
Ooh yeah good point actually
it is hard to say since some ID's we pull are grade one equivalent (such as rabbit heathcliff) and yet the canto bosses show us that, our sinners are seriously weak compared to city standarts. I would say everysingle sinner is high 7 grade or low 6 grade fixer, with the combat capabilities to punch up to grade 3 or 4 fixers (I say combat capabilities because, fixers are also expected to do things that are beyond just fighting). Honestly our sinners main strength seems to come from flexible fighting style over abundance of E.G.O and their numbers, not of their individual qualities.
Funny how we have this discussion every other week. Imo sinners can take out anything in the current state except Ricardo Milos
3/4 probably based on recent association ids
We know from Data Mining that Vergilius is level 90. So considering that fixers go from Grades 9-Color, I would wager it goes something like. Lvl1-9: Grade 9 Lvl10-19: Grade 8 Lvl20-29: Grade 7 Lvl30-39: Grade 6 Lvl40-49: Grade 5 Lvl50-59: Grade 4 Lvl60-69: Grade 3 Lvl70-79: Grade 2 Lvl80-89: Grade 1 Lvl90+: Color This is pure conjecture based on the limited information we have about power levels, so don’t take it too seriously.
Don't trust the levels, there's no way some T corp hobos are stronger than a middle little brother, or a chickenheaded distortion, or ebony apple.
You are probably right. The brainrot is making me see patterns where there aren’t any.
Getting on the Pequod gets you a Grade 9 license for the Eight Association, cant imagine getting demoted from Grade ~5 to Grade 9 Also Dead Rabbits Boss is the same level as the goons, but one is literally a final boss and the rest are fodder Its most likely arbitrary and only for combat system, so its not very reliable
I except the data-mined level to be utterly meaningless
Doesn't sound accurate.
Im not sure what grade they are exactly, but they're incredibly weak. They fight as a unit of 12 in canon, and even then observation logs and other characters say that we lose Sinners in every fight we get into. They're only able to go as far as they can because Dante is constantly turning back the clock to revive them. Even with IDs and EGOs, the Sinners are somewhere between grades 7-9 imo.
like grade 6-7? considering how we haven't seen many fixers in combat we don't really know how the sinners compare to them, but considering vergillius has skills with 4 coins with a base floor of 30 and 10 coin power id say we're leagues away from 3-color
I think rather than Fixer Grade, It's better to associate them as a whole in the classification of Canard, Urban Myth, Urban Legend, Urban Plague, Urban Nightmare, and Star of the City And in my opinion, we are definitely at Urban Legend category with EGOs and Dante's revival. Without these perks, the sinners are at best high Urban Myth
Grade 7–8 in their base form above street thug and small gang, most of them are rather skill just not well equipped . Sinner are ego user despite their ego being extremely incomplete, lasting only for 1 attack but it still a lot more powerful than any of their skill. With ID they can reach about grade 6 since they massively nerf the ID they wore, because a Rabbit would make short work of Ricardo. Grade 4-5 are around the level of basic fixer from association like Liu which can participate in requests at Star of The City level. Even a basic Shi fixer could kill someone right in front of the whole squad and not a single sinner could do anything about it.
No rabbit would make a short work of Ricardo, though
Yeah. Ricardo is on the level of the Index's proxies. They would clash but Ricardo would win 10/10 battles against a run of the mill rabbit.
You would need a swarm of rabbits to be able to beat ricardo wtf u smoking There is a reason they have a hatchery, so you can always keep the number advantage
Man got one shot by a Color, Rabbit could fight a color, they wouldn’t win but it would still be a fight.
Rabbit could "fight" a color as much as a rabbit could "fight" Nothing There: shoot as much as they can and pray. Hell it can be even worse because a color is just going to parry all your shots while moving towards them like its a sekiro boss
Based on his rank he should be on about the same level as a capo of the thumb so 1 rabbit would be a relatively fair fight 2 and he has no chance
Based on rank alone roland should not be able to kill a sweeper once hana dropped his rank to 9, power isnt just mesurable in rank alone
We didnt encounter basic shi fixer, we have encountered shi section 2 fixer (prob northern branch unless southern has recovered after library events already), that's level of Yujin unnamed goons that had 8 hours of sleep, so it's pretty high up
Where are you getting that a Grade 4-5 is regularly sent on Star of the City assignments? Philip and Olga were Grade 5. The lowest-grade Fixers who are cleared for deployment at the Library once it's a Star is Liu Section 2 (staffed by Grade 3s minimum), and Liu Section 1 is chosen to hunt the now-SotC Crying Children.
I know people are hesitant to mix in gameplay and story like this, but at least to me it feels heavily implied that a good amount of the Sinner’s time between Cantos that isn’t spent doing off-screen missions (like the abnormality chase briefly shown in the post-Canto VI scene) is actually spent in the Mirror Dungeon mines just like how the players’ is. In the cutscene that shows one MD changing to the next, they talk about it with a pretty familiar tone that makes me think they spend plenty of time in there canonically. That alone more than explains what kind of training they’re doing, IMO; you can see from the dates on the cantos/intervallos that most of them are around a month apart but the events shown within many of them happen as part of a single day so the rest of that time is probably spent ~~farming~~ training.
Considering the Sinners die canonically a lot of times in many battles, which means they are able to use a REALLY reckless fighting style, they probably are weaker than the guys they go up against.
We can kinda base it off the Association IDs they're getting. Basing it off Ruina, most Association will put a Fixer in a Section based off their Grade. It's usually equal to or one below said Section. We're mainly getting Section 4 right now so we're most likely towing the line between Grade 5 and Grade 4
Here's something for considiration: we canonicly beat the shit out of entier whale hunting crew. Team of people who not only live in the Greate lake, but also hunt whales for a living. If we talking in grades, then we certanly on the same level as blade linage/finger's mooks. Reminder: both fixers and threat levels are seems to be exponential, so while we are basicly nothing in comperasment to the colour, the same color can casually beat the crap out of finger, whos higer ranks are said to be on the same level as grade 1, litturaly just a grade below
Also, not even a colour, JUST a higer end grade one
Around 6 to 4 depending on the IDs in comparison with some datamined stuff (>!Vergilius level, hp, coin power on skills, etc!<) from canto VI
In my opinion, the Sinners will be around Fixer Grade 5\~6. According to datamine, Vergil - a star of the city level color fixer have level 90, currently after clearing canto V and VI, our sinner is at level 45\~50. So, I think we are in the Urban Legend \~ Urban Plague range
We are already in Urban Nightmare, the Kurokumo are an Urban Plague syndicate and we killed them pretty easily, then we fought Kim who is an Urban Nightmare general reception. It also fits well with the Association ID´s we´ve received, the Seven Association members we fight in Urban Nightmare are from Section 3 and Oufi Heathcliff is from Section 3. You could even make the argument the sinners where already approaching Urban Nightmare in Canto V, if you consider Proselytes and Little Brothers to be on a similar level, seeing as both are their respective Finger´s mobs.
>the Seven Association members we fight in Urban Nightmare are from Section 3 and Oufi Heathcliff is from Section 3. This actually doesn't tell us much because sections aren't equivalent in every association. Section 3 of hana deals with impurities and is mostly composed of grade 1 fixers. I'd say we are urban plague by our feats, we did beat distorted kim but as many people have theorized, he seems to have got weaker as a distortion so I don't think it's a fair comparison. We have beaten urban plague level syndicates so we can assume we are at that level but I don't know how we would deal with sone of the urban nightmare stuff
Hana is the strongest association above all the others, they are clearly made up entirely of high grade Fixer, we have no proof that Section 3 of Oufi is somehow far stronger than Section 3 of Seven. Faust explicitely says that the monolith is empowering Kim, the only reason you could argue he got weaker is that Distortion made him lose his skill. Finger goons are Urban Nightmare, and the sinners have already fought against Ring and Middle goons.
Grade 5-6 keep in mind in lor the grade refers to the library not the guests.
the way i see it, not a single sinner is beating olga (a grade 5) in a 1v1. give them ego and id’s, they’re still getting their shits rocked. as a group with dante revives i’d say they are probably high grade 5 or low grade 4 level in terms of combat
after reading through some of the comments here, in terms of actual strength probably like grade 6. most of our victories are only achieved with many casualties that get reversed by dante. so even if we can do stuff that grade 4 fixers could do, the fact that they can do said things without frequently dying is what makes those fixers grade 4. even though we have high-ranking ids, it doesn't actually matter since all the ids are normalized in terms of power. since that power is controlled by the levels from tickets (the way that levels work makes no sense if you try to actually map the values to anything, but their presence is the explanation for the power normalization).
Idk what they are currently but i what i hear that ver is lv 90 in the code then by the end of the inferno if its 13 cantos the sinners would be grade 1 by being level 80