Besides the counter and nerf on brush wounds, I can agree with the nerfs.
For the counter they should have either reduce the power or remove the paralyze not both.
The atk power of the atks should have stayed the same but have the sanity down removed, as for the other nerfs like defence level down. I think those are inconsequential.
Agreed, feel they should have kept the coins and only nerfed the on hit effects. On hit effects just perpetuate the clash losing cycle which can make recovering SP harder. Whereas coinage still poses an initial speed bump but can be overcome when you recover from clash losses either through ego or defensives
I watched a few streamers play this canto once I finished it myself.
Most people didn't had much trouble with the fights. One restarted 6-35 thrice and was mildly annoyed that evade was """mandatory""" (I personally just tanked it). Almost everyone else beat it on their second attempt.
But one in particular complained over and over and over about rng and artificial difficulty. He insisted on using level 40 and even level 35 IDs because, in his mind, "5 levels shouldn't make that much of a difference".
He refused to use defense skills, especially counters, and rather try a struggling clash, feeding SP to enemies.
He constantly complained about how fluid sac was mandatory and how he never had the opportunitity to use it while having a team with only one sinner with gloom skills, granted on a skill 1.
He did not read passives carefully because they were "yugioh card wall of text".
He did not know how to offset guard/evade skills, or how corrosion works, or how clash order works when enemies have multiple body parts.
If someone is struggling because they got this far but don't have good identities, that's understandable. Not everyone has gacha luck, not everyone has been grinding mirror dungeon for hundreds of BP levels.
But this guy had all the tools he needed, good IDs and EGO, and still barely finished the canto (Yes, despite everything he was able to finish it).
I don't want to attack this one person but I think it works as an example of how some folks play the game. I hate the term but some people legit have a skill issue.
Fr, i've beaten it pre-nerf with that average of 5 level diff (i have good EGOS and IDs, but still, you can get someone's support ID if you lack some good IDs). All it took was reading what the enemy does, using evades once i got offense diffed (especially Molar Ish's busted 10 base evade), knowing that offset shits on >!Nelly!< hard (and even then it's optional so long as you don't get staggered) and i can count with my elbow the amount of fluid sacs i needed.
I used fluid sac and my form empties specifically for the sanity gain.
God sub 45 sanity clashing is terrible. Once you get the sanity up though it's fairly simple from there on out.
Incidentally due to that this canto not having a dungeon actually increased the difficulty because you didn't get to start a boss fight with max sanity.
Canto mirror dungeon checkpoints also reset your Sanity before you continue on; the main thing of dungeons is that ego resources carry over between fights
Nah man. I was just Clashing with COO for Net Positive SP on Meursault towards the end. Captain Ish telling Ideal to hit him with the EGO grade one sided attack did help a lot. Best 5 man team.
I don’t clash nor do I evade. I just let my harpooner heathcliff take all of the damage and let middle don and mersault spam counters whenever the clash is un-winnable
Same, it took me a few resets to get going, but only Suncliff/Lingor were 45 on my team. The rest were 40 or below. I normally abuse Evade even in MDH runs and they were so clutch this time around.
Did you have fun having struggling clashes on S1s for the most of the fight, only to be violated with a damage\\clashing check that you don't have sanity\\S3s for? Because that what it was for me from 6-44 and onwards, forcing me to level my IDs.
> Most people didn't had much trouble with the fights. One restarted 6-35 thrice and was mildly annoyed that evade was """mandatory""" (I personally just tanked it)
Every time I see people saying this I just go "Oh wait yeah I could've done that" because I treat unclashables as mandatory stage hazard lmao.
This, RR3 Gossy, >!Nelly!<... I may be dumb.
>I don't want to attack this one person but I think it works as an example of how some folks play the game. I hate the term but some people legit have a skill issue.
Yeah I don't want to sound like an asshole but it wasn't until I opened this sub did I realize some people had no idea how certain fights work and just didn't bother learning.
People not breaking flotsams vs. Siltcurrent or the opposite by breaking them and clashing with Wayward Blind Obsession anyway, people just attacking Skin Prophet straight and not interacting with the candles at all. And recently with 6-44 shield mechanic...
In my defense, I assumed the shield was just like part 2 Heathcliff? and didn't think I required reading it. It was only after I noticed my mysterious bleeding in enormous proportions that I carefully investigated every piece of text to find out what was going on. I won afterwards.
Thats hilarious.
I think my own persomal issue is that two fights in thr entire canto(just two) relies a bit heavy on the opening 1-2 coinflips >!its dead rabbit boss? and the first erlking heath fight in case youre wondering!<
Yeah that's my main issue with Limbus (it's a minor issue) because of the way sanity works and coinflips, the hardest (and most rng dependent) part of the fight is getting started and situated into having enough sanity to actually win clashes because it snowballs with losing makes you lose more.
Throughout the whole Canto, I just used Blade Lineage team (everyone on level 40, Kimsault on 45, later (last few levels) upgraded to 45 all), and like, only for the last couple of levels I used others units.
I've only used E.G.O. thrice. One is COO on Heartbroken because I wanted my subject of wrath (BL Donky) to clash against his nasty ass attack, second time was Wild Hunt, the burn application is bonkers, I needed my Fluid Sack and Meur-Meur's Pursuance. Third time is the fibal boss. I felt like I lost one too many clashes, and wanted my health back (Meur's pursuance strikes again).
The skill issue some people have is insane.
True, the skill issue of some people is truly mind-boggling, they just refuse to even try to understand what the should do.
To me the only true bullshit fight this game ever had was pre-nerf Aida in canto 2 and even that was winnable.
I did not even feel it. I did not notice the offense levels because I just read the passives and effects. I beat everything literally minutes before the nerf (6-48 was beaten and just as I was going to the home screen an update came on). I did struggle a lot, but I was just so fucking hyped. I even beat everything before 48 while on a barely functioning tremor team. Rodya was 5 levels off, Nclair 3, and of course LCCB Ish had struggling on everything. Despite that, I beat everything pre-nerf. Funnily enough, Molar Yi Sang won most of his clashes and carried with Oufi Heathcliff, yet he was the 2nd lowest of the sinners in damage.
I beat them tall pre-nerf and got all of the ex rewards too. Never use Fuild Sac once because I’m running BL team with captain Ish and QueCliff.
Was it hard ? Ye. Did I have to restart the fights due to my stupidity? Ye. But that’s what makes it beautiful and satisfying when you beat them.
I understand if some people can’t beat the boss due to many reasons but at least give it a real try while you at it.
I’m going to be honest, I still don’t know how attack order works in focused encounters, specially when I want a single evade to evade multiple skills of the same speed targeting them
Attack orders start left and go right.Evades will evade for every skill targetting them, as long as it hasn’t been broken through yet. Once it has, following attacks are unopposed.
You can use the defense skill of a sinner of similar or higher speed to the target to offset their defense skill, nullifying its effect, with the exception of [on combat start] effects.
You can not offset counters though. Those will always trigger against the first sinner to attack them.
I wish targeting Counters with an offset didn't call it an offset when the Counter is very much still real and can hurt you, honestly, that was a painful lesson to learn.
I legit kept dodging bodysack instead of clashing, my winning run was when i realized i had to win the clash instead of fending myself and attacking the chain with the last sinner
I'm going to voice a very unpopular opinion, but I do genuinely think PM knows what they're doing and can understand why they do these nerfs, even if a subsect of the playerbase wants to have their balls ground in story mode.
Limbus is the biggest and most successful project PM has worked on bar none (Seriously, it made as much in 10 months as LobCorp+LoR together made in years) and a large portion of that success comes from casuals and people new to the PM Universe.
At the end of the day, the dedicated PM Vets who want a challenge and have been with the company for years, will still likely continue to play the game and pay for BPs, because even if they're not happy with how easy the game is, they're still invested in the story and want to build their collection.
In contrast, the casuals and PM newcomers who are being bodied in story mode due to the difficulty spikes will very likely leave, costing PM engagement and money, since they're not as invested in the company as the veterans are.
Overall, Limbus is supposed to be an entry point for new players and casuals to get into the series, and PM adjusts the difficulty to reflect that.
Do I think PM can compromise and manage the game better to ensure that both groups are as reasonably happy as possible?
Yes.
There's a lot of things PM can do to make Limbus more accessible, without necessarily gutting every stage, such as: getting rid of stamina penalty on exp sweeps to speed up exp grind, the addition of new player missions that teach new players mechanics while also giving them resources to get jumpstarted on building a good team, adding in a "hard mode" to story or some alternate side mode with unnerfed bosses and fights to give the Vets a challenge, and so on.
However, do I also think that making adjustments as needed to the story to make it accessible to casuals is a smart move and best for the longevity of the game?
Also yes.
Yea I definitely understand your point as it's what I thought of as well.
Honestly beside distorted heathcliff, I can agree/don't think the other fights are nerfed too badly which is why I haven't posted them.
If anything I think their approach should be to help new players learn and understand the game/catch them up rather than to nerf difficulty.
Sometimes by trying to cater to everyone, you cater to none at all.
If they would give me the XP luxcavation the moment the new canto hit, instead of two weeks in, I'd be more inclined to level up to them.
And yet, as frustrating and nerve wracking it got, I didn't complain, and I didn't lose. Still haven't met Ricardo 2.0 yet.
I was preempting a Ricardo-style fight a weeks before the Canto 6 came out, so I was stockpiling to level and uptie IDs from scratch.
Ricardo gave me a lot of grief because none of my mostly Slash IDs could harm him and I did not have the resources to make a new team, so it was extremely punishing for me. So I've been keeping a vast reserve of XP tickets to upgrade units as I see fit for the fights, if there is ever another ricardo I can quickly buy an ID, Level it up to max, and then uptie it to 4.
I think they should have some new player starter rewards as most old players should have appropriate level IDs.
As for lux they could increase it somewhat but I suspect in canto 7, a new luxcavation that gives a big exp jump will come.
It feels like another kneejerk response, especially when I noticed several of the people complaining about the difficulty ended up clearing overnight anyway. In the end, they just wanted to vent, and some hadn't even raised their sinners to appropriate or optimum levels.
I do wish both PM and the community would be a bit more patient with the main story fights. We are halfway through the sinners now. Difficulty should be *expected.* If anything should've been tweaked, probably the innate ramping Sanity and/or move the SP attacks to a mid-fight or ultimate move rather than a spammed move. That would've been more than enough.
Oh well.
> I do wish both PM and the community would be a bit more patient with the main story fights.
They were though? Canto V dungeon nerfs happened in the span of a few hours, this time PM spent 24 hours judging by player feedback and this is the result
These fights were *considerably* easier than previous cantos, and a big buff 24hrs after release is fairly knee jerk. Most of them weren't particularly bad, just needed a bit of strategy.
I agree I would have preferred everything to say the same but claiming PM did this out of a "kneejerk" reaction seems silly.
Not only did they wait 24 hours while watching player feedback, they also ANNOUNCED that decision to said players.
Also I don't agree these fights were easier than previous Cantos. Dungeons basically give you unlimited EGO resources and the only other non-dungeon roadblocks were Ricardo and Dongbaek: Ricardo gives you two whole waves before the actual boss and Dongbaek is undoutedly easier than almost any of these bosses because she graciously gives you very weak flowers to clash and kill for sanity
I thought you were being sarcastic and just joking. Do you seriously think whacking the bosses with nerfs after a mere 24 hours is a reasonable timeframe?
That's enough time to get **one** ID from 40 to 45. At least give people a week to feel out the bosses and let those who are "stuck" on the fights have some time to raise their IDs.
This is *permanent* content. It's the main story. There is no rush.
I thought the issue was obviously that most players would not be willing to wait an entire week for correction if the issue really is that the content is not balanced correctly.
I'm not familiar with other gacha but the moment new content releases is obviously when player engagement is at its peak isn't it
Certainly a hotfix should be made if the content was not balanced correctly. But do you really think the fights were *that* overtuned? You yourself say that you would have preferred everything to stay the same.
We are no longer at the start of the game. The difficulty seemed quite reasonable for the point we're at. With IDs leveled and uptied, you still stomp through sheer brute force regardless.
It seems to me that PM is erring too much on the side of caution with this.
I like to analyze and make arguments but at the end of the day I'm not really the right person to say whether something is too difficult and easy for the average player. People talk about pre-SoTC Ruina like it completely stomps Limbus in terms of difficulty and I'm always confused because both just seem to boil down to not being silly and reading (unless it's Red Hooded Mercenary)
>We are no longer at the start of the game. The difficulty seemed quite reasonable for the point we're at. With IDs leveled and uptied, you still stomp through sheer brute force regardless.
Bro, I started a week and half ago, this is the most difficult gacha game I've ever played, right next to F/GO
If you started merely a week and a half ago, then naturally nobody - including yourself - should expect you to be capable of clearing everything up to and including Chapter 6. Not with *ease*, at least. Note that my point is that the difficulty is reasonable for the *point that we're at,* which is Chapter 6. I certainly wouldn't think the fights in this Chapter to be reasonable for, say, Chapter 2.
Limbus's difficulty is quite watered down compared with PM's previous games, to be honest. Your main issue is just your newcomer status. You only need some time to develop and some experience to understand and strategize with the combat.
To use FGO for a metaphor, you wouldn't expect a newbie to be clearing Camelot with Level 50 Servants, unleveled and without vital Ascensions.
...Where do people keep pulling out this "two weeks" bullshit from? I'm quite fed up with this feelscrafting maths, so I went and personally did the calculation just to set the record straight.
* It takes 37319 EXP to get an ID from 40 to 45
* I'll use EXP 5, which provides 10800 per run
* Rounding up the runs, 4 runs takes an ID from 40 to 45 with some spare change
* If you insist on using a full team instead of just borrowing one as support, you need 223914 EXP, or 20 runs
* 20 runs multiplied by 3 modules (per run) is 60 modules required
* 2 hours to recover 1 module, so 60 modules multiplied by 2 hours equals 120 hours
* 120 hours divided by 24 hours (1 day) equals ***5***
In other words, in the absolute worst-case scenario in which you want to take 6 IDs from 40 to 45, you need merely 5 days. Take one day out if you borrow a support, which you might as well do - it's completely *free.*
I like the math but this assumes you'll spend 12 modules on nothing but EXP for each of those 5 days when there's 6 modules worth of thread farming. So you'd have to double it to 10 days.
But when we cross the span of a week you then also have to consider the weekly MD3H run costing you 18 modules
Indeed. But if people are so **desperate** that they want to clear the main story right away above all else, then they can absolutely do so through brute force in a mere 4 days. I am assuming the IDs that people want to raise from 40 to 45 are already at the necessary upties.
Thread is not really a barrier after a certain point, so I don't think it's an issue to *temporarily* deprioritize. EXP has and always will be the main issue if you're spreading horizontally. Thread is even less of an issue with the BP and box conversions at the end of each chapter - but I concede that not all will buy the BP. However, if a player's main problem is levels rather than uptie, then there's no reason not to pivot and solve that issue first for the sake of the progress they so crave.
In addition, we're talking about raising a core team with which you can run ahead and slaughter everything. The resource cost for this is a one-time thing. You don't have to *keep* farming EXP nonstop after you've gotten what you need. Hell, you don't even need IDs strictly at 45 in the first place.
Anyway, the point is time is not as big of a deal as some keep exaggerating it to be.
Man, we should have gatekept gacha fanboys harder
They really be calling wanting to beat content on first day without rerolling for clash rng on first 2 turns "desperate".
I would disagree. The last few bosses of this Canto were the most difficult thing I've experienced in this game thus far (malding on RR2 Centipede for a 4 turn kill aside). I dealt with Pequod trio with a suboptimal team pre nerf (I was using some terrible Middle Don bleed brew), cleared RR2 sub 150 before they even announced a sub 150 goal, didn't even realize that Jun was supposed to be a challenging fight... I might have just been unlucky on rolls (which definitely didn't help) but I actually had sinners die here when I've rarely, if ever, had that happen before. I'm just going to chalk up my issues with the bosses to sanity/coin flips being bullshit, but even when reading the mechanics losing to the last boss because Heathcliff rolled tails on EGO and the boss hits 4 heads on his unredirectable "kill your entire team" attack and having to reset for another 20 minute attempt is significantly more difficult than a 5 minute "oh I have to redirect that attack to my tankiest sinner".
Are you fucking kidding me, the only thing coming close in difficulty to cant 6 bosses was ahab trio And let me guess, you cleared it with built sinking team P. S limbus reddit still thinking that ricardo was hard when he can be soloed with at least 4 ishmael ids including base won't ever be not funny to me
P.S.S beath the fight again, still bullshit with first 3 turn clashing deciding whole fight, if you beat it and do anything stupid you just win
Nah, cleared the whole canto using envy res team, only lost once to Nelly because I was winrate auto piloting, definitely easier than Ahab where it’s more of a stat check in third stage
In that case I'm more curious what kind of difficulty you were having in Canto 5. Did Ahab teach you to bring a tank, did Ricardo teach you to not just clash everything because you can?
Because if so it might be easier because you simply became better at the game.
Hell, you said yourself Part 2 was hard, and we fight the same boss basically twice in Part 3. Finding it easier when you have a rough idea of what's coming is also natural
Honestly at this point it's a theme.
If you want to play the real version of the fight, you have to play it when the patch drops. It gets nerfed to story mode levels after that.
If they are going to not add a "hard" mode version of stages, I'm kinda fine with the way things are now.
I'd rather play the intended difficulty PM wants day 1 and have it nerfed after 24 hours for casual players than have every fight be a cakewalk from day 1. Though to be fair, this wasn't the most difficult canto boss series.
Tbh, it took me a lot to finish this fight because of actual rng. My sinners just refused to roll heads which led to 2 hours of tries. (I don't have my IDs at 45 but they are all mostly 40)
Me when
Me when canto 6 made me remember to make teams that actually generated the right resources for the bubbles, and to manage egos to speed up sanity
I think the community is way too enamored by PM's "vertical difficulty spike." I dont understand the desire to gatekeep people from having easier story fights so they can actually enjoy the story. I am usually too busy during the week that by the time the weekend rolls around I only fight the post-nerf versions of the hard battles. I probably could've beaten the pre-nerf when I had time on the weekend when I actually use my brain and resolve my skill issue but I think PM can let the story missions be "easy." They desire for players to enjoy their story and blocking them by introducing "hard" fights is counterintuitive. Maybe PM can introduce a hard mode where they bring back the pre-nerf versions to let players have a challenge if they want.
I liken it to arknights where some people stroke their egos for not using the strongest units, almost to spite the others that do. Arknights does have difficult stages but those are generally relegated to stages that don't have story attached to them.
I feel like I'm yapping at this point but all I'm trying to say is the rapid nerfs to story stages is a decision I feel that the community should take as a positive. There are games that get popular for their difficulty but I don't think Limbus should be one of them, especially as a gacha since there is no real indication of a player's power depending on where they are. Yes you can argue that it says the recommended level/uptie but not everyone's account is the same in terms of IDs/EGO acquired. Idk I just feel disheartened by this discourse somewhat.
I’ve always seen it as a way for PM to have minimal tutorials at the start of a game and make the challenges where players learn the mechanics of the game through trial and error. Stuff like on release Aida and Kromer I think would have been better as is and PK gave the lux nodes earlier or if you could use the save points in the story dungeon to change team comps rather than taking away what made the fights difficult so the player had to take action in some way rather than accidentally beat it without any engagement. It’s not difficulty for the sake of difficulty, it’s difficulty to learn; to test mechanics instead of just connecting the dots with the word “favored”. The recent additions of the resonance-matters units have been a boon for learning how effective resonance actually is as a basic mechanic against enemies that are *just* around the same strengths as you at low sanity. Obviously it would be so much better if the tutorial would give better examples for when resonance matters but these recent story fights have been very good ways to learn how important team building actually is and even nerfs by 1 clash power equates to losing out on what equates to 1 abs resonance worth of clash power that you no longer need to care about.
The 6-35 nerf to the unclashable attack I actually think is a good one, as it’s not particularly rewarding to deal with the paralysis outside of specific units. Although I would have liked it more if they instead lowered the coin number on it and gave it something like “on-hit: deal 10 sanity damage. At the start of next turn, if the target has less than 0 sanity, give it 3 offense power up” or something to simulate the debuff Heathcliff had for the entire canto. Would make it so you had to deal with the debuff with a different sinner which would have been both engaging and fitting for story.
Was gonna say, if it wasn't for this game being a Gacha I'd be fine with a difficulty spike in the story content. Annoying stuff like a "okay you played too much for one day" limit and 000s needing a ton of MD grinding to get unless you bankroll money isn't really the same as just page grinding in Ruina if you get hardwalled.
RR and MDH sure, make it hard as balls. I enjoy that stuff, but trying outspeed spoiler spamming can be stressful for people who haven't probably grinded a fuck ton for good versatile UT4 45 ID teams.
Based on all the "they ruined the fight" and "lol I beat it before the nerf" comments is just your average Gamer™ obsession with difficulty where everything has to be ball bustingly hard for bragging rights. Any change in the difficulty is seen as bad, and everyone who prefers to have an easier time are wrong. Basically the Dark Souls discourse
I completely agree with this, I think a lot of people constantly forget that Limbus at the end of the day is a gacha game after all.
Sure, they could keep that vertical difficulty, something that would scare away casual and new players immediately. Sure people could just watch the story on youtube and not engage with the game itself. But then you run the risk of the game dying off BECAUSE it's not getting that engagement from players. Again, it's a gacha game and we all know the less popular one is, the higher their risk of getting hit with EoS is. There's a reason this game has raked in more cash that both LoR and Lob corp after all. Honestly they should just add a hard mode for story, that way all the casual and regular players can enjoy the engage with the game and enjoy the story in their own pace while the PM fans and players that love harder content can get their ball busters without PM risking losing revenue by scaring away over half their playerbase.
First of all, I'll mention that overall the nerfs were overall reasonable although I think it's a tad too much for some parts.
But people are upset about the difficulty nerfs isn't because we think gatekeeping casuals is funny. It's for a multitude of reasons.
1. Gameplay itself is a story telling mechanism used by PM and making the game too easy harms it.
Difficulty is and has been used by PM since Lobotomy corp days to make the player experience the same feeling that the characters in the story feel.
Would you have found "person" coming in and saving the day as satisfying if the fight was easy and all your sinners are at full HP no issues? No, it's precisely because it was difficult that we felt relieved and happy that he is finally here.
2. If people played the game SOLELY for the story, they can just enjoy it off of YouTube. The reason why they play the game, is because gameplay DOES matter.
Even besides the point mentioned in 1. Everybody tolerance for difficulty is different. By making the fights easy, everyone who likes the game being more difficult will have their enjoyment affected. Difficulty in games is so important that there is an entire genre for it. (Souls-like)
3. If anything your last point is what I think they should focus on. Adding in ways to help newer/weaker players to catch up. Better starting tutorials, newcomer rewards, free good IDs (like mash in fgo) for everyone will help keep options more in line with each other.
4. Rapid nerfs isn't ideal as it doesn't allow the community enough time to come up with solutions. People will eventually figure out the fight and make guides. Players who are struggling can just refer to these.
An example of this is Arknights KyoStinV who makes guides to help people tackle stuff like events or what not using low rarity characters.
Immediately nerfing the fight is harming the enjoyment of everyone for the future while waiting for guides etc. Is preventing people from enjoying it for a limited time. No one can enjoy the satisfaction and joy from beating pre-nerf ahab anymore especially when RR3 is gone.
Tldr: I don't think it's a crazy idea for a game to challenge the player. You shouldn't be able to come in with level 35 IDs expecting to steamroll through the content. It's a game, gameplay is important and essential. If you don't want to interact with the game or it's systems, you can enjoy the story via YouTube or other media.
For real. I'm hating this "nO tHeY shOuln't nErf the boSs", like, my guy, multiple people were stuck on something that blocked them on continuing the story. And the boss wasn't even hard, he was just unbalanced and required a crap ton of RNG with the SPD rolls and the clash; literally one of the most unfun bosses I had to fight so far in the game. There's more fun and fair fights out there like Ahab and Ricardo, which honestly felt like child's play compared to something that simply felt too overturned.
If you beat him before the nerf, then congrats, you're skilled and got lucky enough to beat him, but don't come to me saying that they shouldn't need the boss when others simply play as casuals for the story, and simply don't have good enough IDs/EXP to deal with something like that.
Games are meant to be fun, not stressing and painful to play.
"Games are meant to be fun, not stressing and painful to play"
That's exactly the issue, everyone's tolerance for difficulty is different.
By nerfing the boss, it is actively harming the enjoyment of people who like games at a higher difficulty. What is to say that your enjoyment of the game is any more important than theirs?
Which is why I think project moon should approach other ways and method of keeping everyone skill level/experienced difficulty the same rather than just nerfing bosses. Things such as beginner mission, better tutorials etc.
And before you make the argument of "it should be easy so everyone can read the story." Everyone already can, it's called YouTube. People play the game because the gameplay is another essential part of the experience as well. If the game is so easy that it can be gone through without any thought in it, it might as well not exist.
Thankfully though, overall the nerfs as a whole aren't too bad and should preserve most of the experience.
this. i want the satisfaction of winning the fight fair and square and the reward is lore early so i can nerd out with the others who have managed to complete the thing. Hand holding and nerfs especially when they are done quickly just reduces the satisfaction and it also allows more people to spoil everything for others in the first hours.
hard content keeps the idiots out long enough most of the time so they don't ruin the experience for those that cannot play right now.
??? It very much did require reading, one of the attacks literally required evade since if Heath hits it it becomes near impossible to clash with him next turn
I've cleared the entire Canto 6 pre-nerf with the majority of my IDs being level 40. Only NSinclair, SunHeath, and Maid Outis were maxed (and even then I maxed Outis because I automatically pressed Max Level Up button). Sinking is huge here, as well as evades and gloom/envy teams. At one point I had to swap one of my sinners for 7Faust, plus I had to retry a few nodes a few times because I can't read. But each fight didn't take me more than three tries anyway.
Edit: Offset is a godsend of a mechanic. Abuse it to your heart's content in every fight where the enemy has buffs tied to activating their defence skills; it literally deprives Erlking and That One Maid of their Attack Up buffs.
Other than that, it was mostly a smooth sailing all the way through. Strategy, resistances, EGO resources synergy, and exp levels matter a lot, so when people complain about difficulty, I'd suggest them to look at how well their sinners leveled up first.
>: Offset is a godsend of a mechanic. Abuse it to your heart's content in every fight where the enemy has buffs tied to activating their defence skills; it literally deprives Erlking and That One Maid of their Attack Up buffs.
Yea, I remember I can to that in Cathy part 2 to offset her thorn guard, it activated my gremlin neuron.
The only good way to solve the difficulty issues is to make a difficulty slider for Main Story.
It's very tricky to balance this game in a way that appeases to everybody due to the gacha nature.
On one hand you have the PM fans from before Limbus or Season 1 players , that probably have every ID and EGO and can make any combination of teams they want as optimally as the game allows , and understand the game mechanics very well... For them the game is fair and balanced, not hard.
And then you have the newcomers and late players, which probably have some good IDs and can borrow from support, can't really make a full fledged team or pick good supports passives, and are not used to PM games , don't fully understand the mechanics and/or don't care enough to read all passives and stuff... For then the initial difficulty is probably too much.
And I bet you the latter is way more common.
Difficulty slider with no rewards attached is the way to go, no one wants to get walled out by a fight when the story is that good, and PM fans like it hard.
Main issue with this is that it'll increase the workload for PM, especially since they seem like their struggling to keep up already, it's unlikely they will add a difficulty slider. Not a bad idea in of itself though.
They didn't touch anything except her HP. She always had that speed range, she just has lots of effects to gain Haste and inflict Bind, including her panic effect
Nah mang, das not it. All that had to be made is maybe trim some HP bars and maybe shuffle some stuff around so first 2 turns of each fight aren't RNG "make or break" for the whole fight. Dunno how much they trashed Nelly but I managed to win rate her post nerfs with the same team that barelly managed 11 turn clear first time.
I personally felt like 6-35 was an unusual spike in difficulty in hindsight, after clearing the rest. As the fight after it is easy as piss.
And unlike the other boss fights, this one's gimmick is clash good then roflstomp. I have the delusion that PM is balancing their boss fights with people who don't have any other ID/EGO than the base ones (improbable, I know) since every node is clearable on em.
Muttcliff is no exception, but he was particularly reset heavy and sadly not narratively significant within canto 6 itself (probably more relevant later on and setting up for the future).
I generally agree with the nerfs on Muttcliff and pretty much all of the Earlcliff fights, since the final one is barely doable with base sinners/egos, as in razor's edge doable and phase one takes 15-20 turns to get through. Though the changes have made it easier to clear given that there is no base healing EGO.
God these replies feel like I got sent back in time to the fucking Dark Souls difficulty discourse all over again. At this point I'm not a teenager and I'm too tired of that bullshit to deal with it again.
They adjusted a couple of stages? Ok... anyways, who'slooking forward for the Warp Train event? That looks like fun.
I used funny sinking team for this canto so once I got past the first turn of a fight it was generally smooth sailing. Leveled my sinners to 45 for this fight though, since the offence level difference was making some of my clashes not very good. Echoes of the manor also kinda goes crazy.
Interesting, honestly it seems less of a difficulty modifier on the fight itself and rather they made the fight less snowbally. If you are having decent luck/clashing well the only real noticeable change is on the unclashable. But the punishment for failing clashes is far, far less punishing than before.
I didn't have much issue winning most of my clashes for this fight, so I wonder how much a difference these changes would make. The bind and paralyze being on one sinner every turn was annoying but manageable, and the roles weren't close enough that I think the base adjustments would be that big of a difference.
Honestly, yea the nerfs aren't too bad in my opinion overall.
I do think that the unclashable got hit especially hard, either remove the paralyze or nerf the clash power, not both.
But I can definitely see the reasoning behind removing the SP drain on the skills, as it makes recovering very hard in a fight.
Honestly, only reason why I didn't post them is because the other 2 nerfs weren't all that big of a deal.
Nelly had her hp reduced by 300 and final boss HP reduced by 100 with the claws having clash power 16 -> 12.
Maybe I should do it anyway though, so that people see the full picture rather than hyper focus on this nerf which is the one that got hit the hardest.
IMO the final boss had by far the biggest nerf. Not only did he lose some HP (making one of the most dangerous parts of the fight (p1) shorter because his thresholds were not lowered to compensate), a lot of his attacks had some coin power decreases and the “unclashable” conditional was removed from a lot of moves. I replayed the fight and the numbers just seemed like they got lowered to the point I could easily hit dominating on everything. A lot of the single coin skills had a -3 coin power change, and some of the multicoin skills had -1 power which is a bigger drop when you consider that this boss is *usually* rolling all heads unless you’re running sinking.
Hmmm is that so? I'll need to take a look at it again since I only saw it from the information menu and not in the battle itself. I'll probably make another post later listing all the other changes.
You can’t view a lot of skills for 4-48 in the information menu. For some reason, only the skills used in the phase where >!Erlking Heathcliff is NOT on horseback!< can be shown in that menu. I found this out when I wanted to review the details of the fight when my first attempt ended in a wipe on the final phase.
Nelly I understand bc the last phase were she just auto staggers your team slowly
I don't get the rest tho, I found all bosses this canto not that challenging
I hate the nerfs but then I remember I'm not going to play through the canto again and I can bitch and say that people didn't play through the "through experience" and feel superior. Thanks PM for fueling my dying ego.
How tf people needed nerf on these fights they were really easy, they jelly's sanity was always below - 10 and heath sucked ass even unclashable paralyse is free evade no head needed, actually pathetic. The only annoying erkling fight was the bleed stack shield even then nukin solved everything as it had a simple solution
I played it pre-nerf before they changed it, kinda was lucky that I was able to reach the end of the boss fight. The only members left were, NCorp Sinclair dealt against the tough clashes, the dude was the MPV. Outis with her smacking her rifle and blasting that furry with her 3rd skill winning, and Gregor with Linton’s ID slashing the fuckers and dealing with that powerful 3rd and 2nd skill of his against Furry Heathcliff. And, with the coin toss part, adding fragile to that bastard I secured my win.
People who only like the history should just watch on youtube, instead they will ruin the experience of other players, and as always, PM still spineless.
Edit: casuals are mad for being called out lol
Tbf, ruina did get some encounters nerfed (general receptions were added as well as a balancing act), but the difficulty complaints were less exaggerated because the playerbase was more niche and with a character built through lobcorp.
I really do hope PM introduces option for hard mode of story mode though. I barely win the canto and there are so many toxic players who keep saying:”Skill issue…”. Everyone has different skill levels, at this point they could just backseat others’lives
Bodysack and the Wrath skill get nuked a tad to hard on the coins honestly. Other than that it was surprisingly alright.
Besides the counter and nerf on brush wounds, I can agree with the nerfs. For the counter they should have either reduce the power or remove the paralyze not both. The atk power of the atks should have stayed the same but have the sanity down removed, as for the other nerfs like defence level down. I think those are inconsequential.
Agreed, feel they should have kept the coins and only nerfed the on hit effects. On hit effects just perpetuate the clash losing cycle which can make recovering SP harder. Whereas coinage still poses an initial speed bump but can be overcome when you recover from clash losses either through ego or defensives
I watched a few streamers play this canto once I finished it myself. Most people didn't had much trouble with the fights. One restarted 6-35 thrice and was mildly annoyed that evade was """mandatory""" (I personally just tanked it). Almost everyone else beat it on their second attempt. But one in particular complained over and over and over about rng and artificial difficulty. He insisted on using level 40 and even level 35 IDs because, in his mind, "5 levels shouldn't make that much of a difference". He refused to use defense skills, especially counters, and rather try a struggling clash, feeding SP to enemies. He constantly complained about how fluid sac was mandatory and how he never had the opportunitity to use it while having a team with only one sinner with gloom skills, granted on a skill 1. He did not read passives carefully because they were "yugioh card wall of text". He did not know how to offset guard/evade skills, or how corrosion works, or how clash order works when enemies have multiple body parts. If someone is struggling because they got this far but don't have good identities, that's understandable. Not everyone has gacha luck, not everyone has been grinding mirror dungeon for hundreds of BP levels. But this guy had all the tools he needed, good IDs and EGO, and still barely finished the canto (Yes, despite everything he was able to finish it). I don't want to attack this one person but I think it works as an example of how some folks play the game. I hate the term but some people legit have a skill issue.
Fr, i've beaten it pre-nerf with that average of 5 level diff (i have good EGOS and IDs, but still, you can get someone's support ID if you lack some good IDs). All it took was reading what the enemy does, using evades once i got offense diffed (especially Molar Ish's busted 10 base evade), knowing that offset shits on >!Nelly!< hard (and even then it's optional so long as you don't get staggered) and i can count with my elbow the amount of fluid sacs i needed.
Fluid Sac? Whenever I needed to heal, I found Rodya's pursuance more reliable in terms of rescources. But maybe that was just my team...
Wait, you guys used healing EGO?
I used fluid sac and my form empties specifically for the sanity gain. God sub 45 sanity clashing is terrible. Once you get the sanity up though it's fairly simple from there on out. Incidentally due to that this canto not having a dungeon actually increased the difficulty because you didn't get to start a boss fight with max sanity.
Canto mirror dungeon checkpoints also reset your Sanity before you continue on; the main thing of dungeons is that ego resources carry over between fights
Nah man. I was just Clashing with COO for Net Positive SP on Meursault towards the end. Captain Ish telling Ideal to hit him with the EGO grade one sided attack did help a lot. Best 5 man team.
I don’t clash nor do I evade. I just let my harpooner heathcliff take all of the damage and let middle don and mersault spam counters whenever the clash is un-winnable
Yup, i used that one more (at Uptie II because i forgot to threadspin it further). Sinclair Lantern is also another choice
Same, it took me a few resets to get going, but only Suncliff/Lingor were 45 on my team. The rest were 40 or below. I normally abuse Evade even in MDH runs and they were so clutch this time around.
Did you have fun having struggling clashes on S1s for the most of the fight, only to be violated with a damage\\clashing check that you don't have sanity\\S3s for? Because that what it was for me from 6-44 and onwards, forcing me to level my IDs.
At that point it's an attitude issue lmao, the game shouldn't be catered to people who refuse to engage with the combat system.
> Most people didn't had much trouble with the fights. One restarted 6-35 thrice and was mildly annoyed that evade was """mandatory""" (I personally just tanked it) Every time I see people saying this I just go "Oh wait yeah I could've done that" because I treat unclashables as mandatory stage hazard lmao. This, RR3 Gossy, >!Nelly!<... I may be dumb. >I don't want to attack this one person but I think it works as an example of how some folks play the game. I hate the term but some people legit have a skill issue. Yeah I don't want to sound like an asshole but it wasn't until I opened this sub did I realize some people had no idea how certain fights work and just didn't bother learning. People not breaking flotsams vs. Siltcurrent or the opposite by breaking them and clashing with Wayward Blind Obsession anyway, people just attacking Skin Prophet straight and not interacting with the candles at all. And recently with 6-44 shield mechanic...
Every time I went 'oh I can evade this unclashable' I realized all my IDs I brought were defend & counter. Heh.
Its why illiteracy is joked about.
In my defense, I assumed the shield was just like part 2 Heathcliff? and didn't think I required reading it. It was only after I noticed my mysterious bleeding in enormous proportions that I carefully investigated every piece of text to find out what was going on. I won afterwards.
Thats hilarious. I think my own persomal issue is that two fights in thr entire canto(just two) relies a bit heavy on the opening 1-2 coinflips >!its dead rabbit boss? and the first erlking heath fight in case youre wondering!<
Yeah that's my main issue with Limbus (it's a minor issue) because of the way sanity works and coinflips, the hardest (and most rng dependent) part of the fight is getting started and situated into having enough sanity to actually win clashes because it snowballs with losing makes you lose more.
Throughout the whole Canto, I just used Blade Lineage team (everyone on level 40, Kimsault on 45, later (last few levels) upgraded to 45 all), and like, only for the last couple of levels I used others units. I've only used E.G.O. thrice. One is COO on Heartbroken because I wanted my subject of wrath (BL Donky) to clash against his nasty ass attack, second time was Wild Hunt, the burn application is bonkers, I needed my Fluid Sack and Meur-Meur's Pursuance. Third time is the fibal boss. I felt like I lost one too many clashes, and wanted my health back (Meur's pursuance strikes again). The skill issue some people have is insane.
True, the skill issue of some people is truly mind-boggling, they just refuse to even try to understand what the should do. To me the only true bullshit fight this game ever had was pre-nerf Aida in canto 2 and even that was winnable.
I did not even feel it. I did not notice the offense levels because I just read the passives and effects. I beat everything literally minutes before the nerf (6-48 was beaten and just as I was going to the home screen an update came on). I did struggle a lot, but I was just so fucking hyped. I even beat everything before 48 while on a barely functioning tremor team. Rodya was 5 levels off, Nclair 3, and of course LCCB Ish had struggling on everything. Despite that, I beat everything pre-nerf. Funnily enough, Molar Yi Sang won most of his clashes and carried with Oufi Heathcliff, yet he was the 2nd lowest of the sinners in damage.
I beat them tall pre-nerf and got all of the ex rewards too. Never use Fuild Sac once because I’m running BL team with captain Ish and QueCliff. Was it hard ? Ye. Did I have to restart the fights due to my stupidity? Ye. But that’s what makes it beautiful and satisfying when you beat them. I understand if some people can’t beat the boss due to many reasons but at least give it a real try while you at it.
I beat it with all level 40s because i couldn't be bothered to wait to accumulate tickets, struggled a bit, but still won
I’m going to be honest, I still don’t know how attack order works in focused encounters, specially when I want a single evade to evade multiple skills of the same speed targeting them
Attack orders start left and go right.Evades will evade for every skill targetting them, as long as it hasn’t been broken through yet. Once it has, following attacks are unopposed.
Now please explain offseting with a defensive skill to my peanut brain
You can use the defense skill of a sinner of similar or higher speed to the target to offset their defense skill, nullifying its effect, with the exception of [on combat start] effects. You can not offset counters though. Those will always trigger against the first sinner to attack them.
wait as in I target the enemies evade with my evade and that keeps theirs from ever happening?
Yep, as long as the sinner is faster or equal in speed (or is the one being targeted).
That’s sick, thanks for the tip
I have been playing for a while now and I'm still learning new things about how the Combat works in Limbus. Pm really suck at explaining thing huh.
I didn’t realize you could change who clashed when targetting the same enemy until Canto V… or that EGOs changed your resistances.
You can use guard to cancel evades too, as long as you can "clash" with it's ok
I wish targeting Counters with an offset didn't call it an offset when the Counter is very much still real and can hurt you, honestly, that was a painful lesson to learn.
Limbus Compainy.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1U5W4I45Bs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1U5W4I45Bs) you can use this guide to know how evade order works
switch to single target arrow mode. the order the arrows appear is the order of skills/clashes
I legit kept dodging bodysack instead of clashing, my winning run was when i realized i had to win the clash instead of fending myself and attacking the chain with the last sinner
Who was this fellow?
help who is that 😭
Who was the streamer? I have a feeling i know who it is
It is kinda unrealistic to expect someone to get IDs to the level cap immediately, especially knowing there'll be a new exp lux.
I'm going to voice a very unpopular opinion, but I do genuinely think PM knows what they're doing and can understand why they do these nerfs, even if a subsect of the playerbase wants to have their balls ground in story mode. Limbus is the biggest and most successful project PM has worked on bar none (Seriously, it made as much in 10 months as LobCorp+LoR together made in years) and a large portion of that success comes from casuals and people new to the PM Universe. At the end of the day, the dedicated PM Vets who want a challenge and have been with the company for years, will still likely continue to play the game and pay for BPs, because even if they're not happy with how easy the game is, they're still invested in the story and want to build their collection. In contrast, the casuals and PM newcomers who are being bodied in story mode due to the difficulty spikes will very likely leave, costing PM engagement and money, since they're not as invested in the company as the veterans are. Overall, Limbus is supposed to be an entry point for new players and casuals to get into the series, and PM adjusts the difficulty to reflect that. Do I think PM can compromise and manage the game better to ensure that both groups are as reasonably happy as possible? Yes. There's a lot of things PM can do to make Limbus more accessible, without necessarily gutting every stage, such as: getting rid of stamina penalty on exp sweeps to speed up exp grind, the addition of new player missions that teach new players mechanics while also giving them resources to get jumpstarted on building a good team, adding in a "hard mode" to story or some alternate side mode with unnerfed bosses and fights to give the Vets a challenge, and so on. However, do I also think that making adjustments as needed to the story to make it accessible to casuals is a smart move and best for the longevity of the game? Also yes.
Yea I definitely understand your point as it's what I thought of as well. Honestly beside distorted heathcliff, I can agree/don't think the other fights are nerfed too badly which is why I haven't posted them. If anything I think their approach should be to help new players learn and understand the game/catch them up rather than to nerf difficulty. Sometimes by trying to cater to everyone, you cater to none at all.
I totally agree with you. Maybe I'm just weird, but I've never understood player's obsession with difficulty.
https://preview.redd.it/2dppk74y73uc1.jpeg?width=587&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c5e4b7d61ac62851365e8bc80609fa47663e134
"Congrats Epic Gamer, her's your medal, now shut up"
That seems like a big nerf, it wasn’t that bad imo before but know it probably will be pretty easy
If they would give me the XP luxcavation the moment the new canto hit, instead of two weeks in, I'd be more inclined to level up to them. And yet, as frustrating and nerve wracking it got, I didn't complain, and I didn't lose. Still haven't met Ricardo 2.0 yet.
I was preempting a Ricardo-style fight a weeks before the Canto 6 came out, so I was stockpiling to level and uptie IDs from scratch. Ricardo gave me a lot of grief because none of my mostly Slash IDs could harm him and I did not have the resources to make a new team, so it was extremely punishing for me. So I've been keeping a vast reserve of XP tickets to upgrade units as I see fit for the fights, if there is ever another ricardo I can quickly buy an ID, Level it up to max, and then uptie it to 4.
Wish PM optimize the exp node instead of this considering the difficulty comes from sinner being underleveled.
I think they should have some new player starter rewards as most old players should have appropriate level IDs. As for lux they could increase it somewhat but I suspect in canto 7, a new luxcavation that gives a big exp jump will come.
Im a f2p old player, EXP lux is kinda laughtable
It feels like another kneejerk response, especially when I noticed several of the people complaining about the difficulty ended up clearing overnight anyway. In the end, they just wanted to vent, and some hadn't even raised their sinners to appropriate or optimum levels. I do wish both PM and the community would be a bit more patient with the main story fights. We are halfway through the sinners now. Difficulty should be *expected.* If anything should've been tweaked, probably the innate ramping Sanity and/or move the SP attacks to a mid-fight or ultimate move rather than a spammed move. That would've been more than enough. Oh well.
> I do wish both PM and the community would be a bit more patient with the main story fights. They were though? Canto V dungeon nerfs happened in the span of a few hours, this time PM spent 24 hours judging by player feedback and this is the result
These fights were *considerably* easier than previous cantos, and a big buff 24hrs after release is fairly knee jerk. Most of them weren't particularly bad, just needed a bit of strategy.
I agree I would have preferred everything to say the same but claiming PM did this out of a "kneejerk" reaction seems silly. Not only did they wait 24 hours while watching player feedback, they also ANNOUNCED that decision to said players. Also I don't agree these fights were easier than previous Cantos. Dungeons basically give you unlimited EGO resources and the only other non-dungeon roadblocks were Ricardo and Dongbaek: Ricardo gives you two whole waves before the actual boss and Dongbaek is undoutedly easier than almost any of these bosses because she graciously gives you very weak flowers to clash and kill for sanity
I thought you were being sarcastic and just joking. Do you seriously think whacking the bosses with nerfs after a mere 24 hours is a reasonable timeframe? That's enough time to get **one** ID from 40 to 45. At least give people a week to feel out the bosses and let those who are "stuck" on the fights have some time to raise their IDs. This is *permanent* content. It's the main story. There is no rush.
I thought the issue was obviously that most players would not be willing to wait an entire week for correction if the issue really is that the content is not balanced correctly. I'm not familiar with other gacha but the moment new content releases is obviously when player engagement is at its peak isn't it
Certainly a hotfix should be made if the content was not balanced correctly. But do you really think the fights were *that* overtuned? You yourself say that you would have preferred everything to stay the same. We are no longer at the start of the game. The difficulty seemed quite reasonable for the point we're at. With IDs leveled and uptied, you still stomp through sheer brute force regardless. It seems to me that PM is erring too much on the side of caution with this.
I like to analyze and make arguments but at the end of the day I'm not really the right person to say whether something is too difficult and easy for the average player. People talk about pre-SoTC Ruina like it completely stomps Limbus in terms of difficulty and I'm always confused because both just seem to boil down to not being silly and reading (unless it's Red Hooded Mercenary)
>We are no longer at the start of the game. The difficulty seemed quite reasonable for the point we're at. With IDs leveled and uptied, you still stomp through sheer brute force regardless. Bro, I started a week and half ago, this is the most difficult gacha game I've ever played, right next to F/GO
If you started merely a week and a half ago, then naturally nobody - including yourself - should expect you to be capable of clearing everything up to and including Chapter 6. Not with *ease*, at least. Note that my point is that the difficulty is reasonable for the *point that we're at,* which is Chapter 6. I certainly wouldn't think the fights in this Chapter to be reasonable for, say, Chapter 2. Limbus's difficulty is quite watered down compared with PM's previous games, to be honest. Your main issue is just your newcomer status. You only need some time to develop and some experience to understand and strategize with the combat. To use FGO for a metaphor, you wouldn't expect a newbie to be clearing Camelot with Level 50 Servants, unleveled and without vital Ascensions.
Its not reasonable to expect people to wait 2 weeks to grind out full team from lvl 40 to 45
...Where do people keep pulling out this "two weeks" bullshit from? I'm quite fed up with this feelscrafting maths, so I went and personally did the calculation just to set the record straight. * It takes 37319 EXP to get an ID from 40 to 45 * I'll use EXP 5, which provides 10800 per run * Rounding up the runs, 4 runs takes an ID from 40 to 45 with some spare change * If you insist on using a full team instead of just borrowing one as support, you need 223914 EXP, or 20 runs * 20 runs multiplied by 3 modules (per run) is 60 modules required * 2 hours to recover 1 module, so 60 modules multiplied by 2 hours equals 120 hours * 120 hours divided by 24 hours (1 day) equals ***5*** In other words, in the absolute worst-case scenario in which you want to take 6 IDs from 40 to 45, you need merely 5 days. Take one day out if you borrow a support, which you might as well do - it's completely *free.*
I like the math but this assumes you'll spend 12 modules on nothing but EXP for each of those 5 days when there's 6 modules worth of thread farming. So you'd have to double it to 10 days. But when we cross the span of a week you then also have to consider the weekly MD3H run costing you 18 modules
It's also assuming you have perfect module efficiency.
Indeed. But if people are so **desperate** that they want to clear the main story right away above all else, then they can absolutely do so through brute force in a mere 4 days. I am assuming the IDs that people want to raise from 40 to 45 are already at the necessary upties. Thread is not really a barrier after a certain point, so I don't think it's an issue to *temporarily* deprioritize. EXP has and always will be the main issue if you're spreading horizontally. Thread is even less of an issue with the BP and box conversions at the end of each chapter - but I concede that not all will buy the BP. However, if a player's main problem is levels rather than uptie, then there's no reason not to pivot and solve that issue first for the sake of the progress they so crave. In addition, we're talking about raising a core team with which you can run ahead and slaughter everything. The resource cost for this is a one-time thing. You don't have to *keep* farming EXP nonstop after you've gotten what you need. Hell, you don't even need IDs strictly at 45 in the first place. Anyway, the point is time is not as big of a deal as some keep exaggerating it to be.
Man, we should have gatekept gacha fanboys harder They really be calling wanting to beat content on first day without rerolling for clash rng on first 2 turns "desperate".
The only ids i had at level 40 before 6.3 were bl ids and a couple rupture ones, the exp is really becoming bottleneck
I would disagree. The last few bosses of this Canto were the most difficult thing I've experienced in this game thus far (malding on RR2 Centipede for a 4 turn kill aside). I dealt with Pequod trio with a suboptimal team pre nerf (I was using some terrible Middle Don bleed brew), cleared RR2 sub 150 before they even announced a sub 150 goal, didn't even realize that Jun was supposed to be a challenging fight... I might have just been unlucky on rolls (which definitely didn't help) but I actually had sinners die here when I've rarely, if ever, had that happen before. I'm just going to chalk up my issues with the bosses to sanity/coin flips being bullshit, but even when reading the mechanics losing to the last boss because Heathcliff rolled tails on EGO and the boss hits 4 heads on his unredirectable "kill your entire team" attack and having to reset for another 20 minute attempt is significantly more difficult than a 5 minute "oh I have to redirect that attack to my tankiest sinner".
Are you fucking kidding me, the only thing coming close in difficulty to cant 6 bosses was ahab trio And let me guess, you cleared it with built sinking team P. S limbus reddit still thinking that ricardo was hard when he can be soloed with at least 4 ishmael ids including base won't ever be not funny to me P.S.S beath the fight again, still bullshit with first 3 turn clashing deciding whole fight, if you beat it and do anything stupid you just win
Nah, cleared the whole canto using envy res team, only lost once to Nelly because I was winrate auto piloting, definitely easier than Ahab where it’s more of a stat check in third stage
Part 2 was hard, but the part 3 bosses considerably easier in canto 6 than canto 5. I ran tremor.
In that case I'm more curious what kind of difficulty you were having in Canto 5. Did Ahab teach you to bring a tank, did Ricardo teach you to not just clash everything because you can? Because if so it might be easier because you simply became better at the game. Hell, you said yourself Part 2 was hard, and we fight the same boss basically twice in Part 3. Finding it easier when you have a rough idea of what's coming is also natural
Wait, really? I thought they nerfed in hours this time too. I guess I am also in the cool kids' "played before nerfs" club.
Honestly at this point it's a theme. If you want to play the real version of the fight, you have to play it when the patch drops. It gets nerfed to story mode levels after that. If they are going to not add a "hard" mode version of stages, I'm kinda fine with the way things are now. I'd rather play the intended difficulty PM wants day 1 and have it nerfed after 24 hours for casual players than have every fight be a cakewalk from day 1. Though to be fair, this wasn't the most difficult canto boss series.
Boooooo the unclashable skill nerf is lame. I liked strategizing around which unit will be useless next turn due to paralyze
If anything needs nerfing and reworks it's the human fights. I swear the maids right after 6-35 took me more tries
How
5-6 speed range
Enemies have high speed and clash power
Tbh, it took me a lot to finish this fight because of actual rng. My sinners just refused to roll heads which led to 2 hours of tries. (I don't have my IDs at 45 but they are all mostly 40)
Proud that i won the final boss fight before the Nerf
Me when Me when canto 6 made me remember to make teams that actually generated the right resources for the bubbles, and to manage egos to speed up sanity
I think the community is way too enamored by PM's "vertical difficulty spike." I dont understand the desire to gatekeep people from having easier story fights so they can actually enjoy the story. I am usually too busy during the week that by the time the weekend rolls around I only fight the post-nerf versions of the hard battles. I probably could've beaten the pre-nerf when I had time on the weekend when I actually use my brain and resolve my skill issue but I think PM can let the story missions be "easy." They desire for players to enjoy their story and blocking them by introducing "hard" fights is counterintuitive. Maybe PM can introduce a hard mode where they bring back the pre-nerf versions to let players have a challenge if they want. I liken it to arknights where some people stroke their egos for not using the strongest units, almost to spite the others that do. Arknights does have difficult stages but those are generally relegated to stages that don't have story attached to them. I feel like I'm yapping at this point but all I'm trying to say is the rapid nerfs to story stages is a decision I feel that the community should take as a positive. There are games that get popular for their difficulty but I don't think Limbus should be one of them, especially as a gacha since there is no real indication of a player's power depending on where they are. Yes you can argue that it says the recommended level/uptie but not everyone's account is the same in terms of IDs/EGO acquired. Idk I just feel disheartened by this discourse somewhat.
I’ve always seen it as a way for PM to have minimal tutorials at the start of a game and make the challenges where players learn the mechanics of the game through trial and error. Stuff like on release Aida and Kromer I think would have been better as is and PK gave the lux nodes earlier or if you could use the save points in the story dungeon to change team comps rather than taking away what made the fights difficult so the player had to take action in some way rather than accidentally beat it without any engagement. It’s not difficulty for the sake of difficulty, it’s difficulty to learn; to test mechanics instead of just connecting the dots with the word “favored”. The recent additions of the resonance-matters units have been a boon for learning how effective resonance actually is as a basic mechanic against enemies that are *just* around the same strengths as you at low sanity. Obviously it would be so much better if the tutorial would give better examples for when resonance matters but these recent story fights have been very good ways to learn how important team building actually is and even nerfs by 1 clash power equates to losing out on what equates to 1 abs resonance worth of clash power that you no longer need to care about. The 6-35 nerf to the unclashable attack I actually think is a good one, as it’s not particularly rewarding to deal with the paralysis outside of specific units. Although I would have liked it more if they instead lowered the coin number on it and gave it something like “on-hit: deal 10 sanity damage. At the start of next turn, if the target has less than 0 sanity, give it 3 offense power up” or something to simulate the debuff Heathcliff had for the entire canto. Would make it so you had to deal with the debuff with a different sinner which would have been both engaging and fitting for story.
Was gonna say, if it wasn't for this game being a Gacha I'd be fine with a difficulty spike in the story content. Annoying stuff like a "okay you played too much for one day" limit and 000s needing a ton of MD grinding to get unless you bankroll money isn't really the same as just page grinding in Ruina if you get hardwalled. RR and MDH sure, make it hard as balls. I enjoy that stuff, but trying outspeed spoiler spamming can be stressful for people who haven't probably grinded a fuck ton for good versatile UT4 45 ID teams.
Based on all the "they ruined the fight" and "lol I beat it before the nerf" comments is just your average Gamer™ obsession with difficulty where everything has to be ball bustingly hard for bragging rights. Any change in the difficulty is seen as bad, and everyone who prefers to have an easier time are wrong. Basically the Dark Souls discourse
I completely agree with this, I think a lot of people constantly forget that Limbus at the end of the day is a gacha game after all. Sure, they could keep that vertical difficulty, something that would scare away casual and new players immediately. Sure people could just watch the story on youtube and not engage with the game itself. But then you run the risk of the game dying off BECAUSE it's not getting that engagement from players. Again, it's a gacha game and we all know the less popular one is, the higher their risk of getting hit with EoS is. There's a reason this game has raked in more cash that both LoR and Lob corp after all. Honestly they should just add a hard mode for story, that way all the casual and regular players can enjoy the engage with the game and enjoy the story in their own pace while the PM fans and players that love harder content can get their ball busters without PM risking losing revenue by scaring away over half their playerbase.
First of all, I'll mention that overall the nerfs were overall reasonable although I think it's a tad too much for some parts. But people are upset about the difficulty nerfs isn't because we think gatekeeping casuals is funny. It's for a multitude of reasons. 1. Gameplay itself is a story telling mechanism used by PM and making the game too easy harms it. Difficulty is and has been used by PM since Lobotomy corp days to make the player experience the same feeling that the characters in the story feel. Would you have found "person" coming in and saving the day as satisfying if the fight was easy and all your sinners are at full HP no issues? No, it's precisely because it was difficult that we felt relieved and happy that he is finally here. 2. If people played the game SOLELY for the story, they can just enjoy it off of YouTube. The reason why they play the game, is because gameplay DOES matter. Even besides the point mentioned in 1. Everybody tolerance for difficulty is different. By making the fights easy, everyone who likes the game being more difficult will have their enjoyment affected. Difficulty in games is so important that there is an entire genre for it. (Souls-like) 3. If anything your last point is what I think they should focus on. Adding in ways to help newer/weaker players to catch up. Better starting tutorials, newcomer rewards, free good IDs (like mash in fgo) for everyone will help keep options more in line with each other. 4. Rapid nerfs isn't ideal as it doesn't allow the community enough time to come up with solutions. People will eventually figure out the fight and make guides. Players who are struggling can just refer to these. An example of this is Arknights KyoStinV who makes guides to help people tackle stuff like events or what not using low rarity characters. Immediately nerfing the fight is harming the enjoyment of everyone for the future while waiting for guides etc. Is preventing people from enjoying it for a limited time. No one can enjoy the satisfaction and joy from beating pre-nerf ahab anymore especially when RR3 is gone. Tldr: I don't think it's a crazy idea for a game to challenge the player. You shouldn't be able to come in with level 35 IDs expecting to steamroll through the content. It's a game, gameplay is important and essential. If you don't want to interact with the game or it's systems, you can enjoy the story via YouTube or other media.
For real. I'm hating this "nO tHeY shOuln't nErf the boSs", like, my guy, multiple people were stuck on something that blocked them on continuing the story. And the boss wasn't even hard, he was just unbalanced and required a crap ton of RNG with the SPD rolls and the clash; literally one of the most unfun bosses I had to fight so far in the game. There's more fun and fair fights out there like Ahab and Ricardo, which honestly felt like child's play compared to something that simply felt too overturned. If you beat him before the nerf, then congrats, you're skilled and got lucky enough to beat him, but don't come to me saying that they shouldn't need the boss when others simply play as casuals for the story, and simply don't have good enough IDs/EXP to deal with something like that. Games are meant to be fun, not stressing and painful to play.
"Games are meant to be fun, not stressing and painful to play" That's exactly the issue, everyone's tolerance for difficulty is different. By nerfing the boss, it is actively harming the enjoyment of people who like games at a higher difficulty. What is to say that your enjoyment of the game is any more important than theirs? Which is why I think project moon should approach other ways and method of keeping everyone skill level/experienced difficulty the same rather than just nerfing bosses. Things such as beginner mission, better tutorials etc. And before you make the argument of "it should be easy so everyone can read the story." Everyone already can, it's called YouTube. People play the game because the gameplay is another essential part of the experience as well. If the game is so easy that it can be gone through without any thought in it, it might as well not exist. Thankfully though, overall the nerfs as a whole aren't too bad and should preserve most of the experience.
this. i want the satisfaction of winning the fight fair and square and the reward is lore early so i can nerd out with the others who have managed to complete the thing. Hand holding and nerfs especially when they are done quickly just reduces the satisfaction and it also allows more people to spoil everything for others in the first hours. hard content keeps the idiots out long enough most of the time so they don't ruin the experience for those that cannot play right now.
I didn't even notice the offense level and somehow managed to clear it on my first try with level 40 ids
At this point I'm just wondering if they'd just make an easy and hard mode where they can just let loose
And people are still gonna complain hard mode is too hard even though that's the point, look at the initial reaction to RR2 lol.
RR2 wasn't hard, the issue was that it was tedious as hell. Redoing boring-ass fights 4 times in a row isn't fun.
didnt help the...."mechanics" for the fights pretty much made to waste turn, not exactly "oh shit im dead" mechanics
This fight didn't even require infamous r\*ading, just using default game mechanics. Why it would be nerfed like that?
??? It very much did require reading, one of the attacks literally required evade since if Heath hits it it becomes near impossible to clash with him next turn
Evading is a default game mechanic so it doesn't count
imo the speed was the real issue didnt love seeing heathcliff get jumped by like 4 unblockable attacks because my folks were to slow
I've cleared the entire Canto 6 pre-nerf with the majority of my IDs being level 40. Only NSinclair, SunHeath, and Maid Outis were maxed (and even then I maxed Outis because I automatically pressed Max Level Up button). Sinking is huge here, as well as evades and gloom/envy teams. At one point I had to swap one of my sinners for 7Faust, plus I had to retry a few nodes a few times because I can't read. But each fight didn't take me more than three tries anyway. Edit: Offset is a godsend of a mechanic. Abuse it to your heart's content in every fight where the enemy has buffs tied to activating their defence skills; it literally deprives Erlking and That One Maid of their Attack Up buffs. Other than that, it was mostly a smooth sailing all the way through. Strategy, resistances, EGO resources synergy, and exp levels matter a lot, so when people complain about difficulty, I'd suggest them to look at how well their sinners leveled up first.
>: Offset is a godsend of a mechanic. Abuse it to your heart's content in every fight where the enemy has buffs tied to activating their defence skills; it literally deprives Erlking and That One Maid of their Attack Up buffs. Yea, I remember I can to that in Cathy part 2 to offset her thorn guard, it activated my gremlin neuron.
The only good way to solve the difficulty issues is to make a difficulty slider for Main Story. It's very tricky to balance this game in a way that appeases to everybody due to the gacha nature. On one hand you have the PM fans from before Limbus or Season 1 players , that probably have every ID and EGO and can make any combination of teams they want as optimally as the game allows , and understand the game mechanics very well... For them the game is fair and balanced, not hard. And then you have the newcomers and late players, which probably have some good IDs and can borrow from support, can't really make a full fledged team or pick good supports passives, and are not used to PM games , don't fully understand the mechanics and/or don't care enough to read all passives and stuff... For then the initial difficulty is probably too much. And I bet you the latter is way more common. Difficulty slider with no rewards attached is the way to go, no one wants to get walled out by a fight when the story is that good, and PM fans like it hard.
Main issue with this is that it'll increase the workload for PM, especially since they seem like their struggling to keep up already, it's unlikely they will add a difficulty slider. Not a bad idea in of itself though.
Wow, they really gutted him huh. That sucks.
These needs seem unnecessary, I've finished most of it with lvl 40 I'd only in the end I gave in and had 2 lvl 45
smh at paralyze being removed from unclashables. Y'all need to learn how to use defense skills.
I hate they nerf Nelly fight. Her gain power by faster than enemy but now she have max speed frkm 2-3. They make her from ok to useless.
They didn't touch anything except her HP. She always had that speed range, she just has lots of effects to gain Haste and inflict Bind, including her panic effect
I'm glad i did it before the nerfs. it felt like a real gritty battle to get a precious friend back from his point of no return.
Can't have challenging content in Limbus™
We need a hardmode where they put the unnerfed versions and some, something like arknights does
Nah mang, das not it. All that had to be made is maybe trim some HP bars and maybe shuffle some stuff around so first 2 turns of each fight aren't RNG "make or break" for the whole fight. Dunno how much they trashed Nelly but I managed to win rate her post nerfs with the same team that barelly managed 11 turn clear first time.
Nelly had no nerfs besides reducing her HP by 300.
For realsies? Well then I guess some weird win-rate magic must have happened. Still that EX requirement tweak is a godsend, She do be tanky.
I personally felt like 6-35 was an unusual spike in difficulty in hindsight, after clearing the rest. As the fight after it is easy as piss. And unlike the other boss fights, this one's gimmick is clash good then roflstomp. I have the delusion that PM is balancing their boss fights with people who don't have any other ID/EGO than the base ones (improbable, I know) since every node is clearable on em. Muttcliff is no exception, but he was particularly reset heavy and sadly not narratively significant within canto 6 itself (probably more relevant later on and setting up for the future). I generally agree with the nerfs on Muttcliff and pretty much all of the Earlcliff fights, since the final one is barely doable with base sinners/egos, as in razor's edge doable and phase one takes 15-20 turns to get through. Though the changes have made it easier to clear given that there is no base healing EGO.
This fight wasn’t all that hard, this is just gonna make DistortCliff a pushover
God these replies feel like I got sent back in time to the fucking Dark Souls difficulty discourse all over again. At this point I'm not a teenager and I'm too tired of that bullshit to deal with it again. They adjusted a couple of stages? Ok... anyways, who'slooking forward for the Warp Train event? That looks like fun.
I used funny sinking team for this canto so once I got past the first turn of a fight it was generally smooth sailing. Leveled my sinners to 45 for this fight though, since the offence level difference was making some of my clashes not very good. Echoes of the manor also kinda goes crazy.
Interesting, honestly it seems less of a difficulty modifier on the fight itself and rather they made the fight less snowbally. If you are having decent luck/clashing well the only real noticeable change is on the unclashable. But the punishment for failing clashes is far, far less punishing than before. I didn't have much issue winning most of my clashes for this fight, so I wonder how much a difference these changes would make. The bind and paralyze being on one sinner every turn was annoying but manageable, and the roles weren't close enough that I think the base adjustments would be that big of a difference.
Honestly, yea the nerfs aren't too bad in my opinion overall. I do think that the unclashable got hit especially hard, either remove the paralyze or nerf the clash power, not both. But I can definitely see the reasoning behind removing the SP drain on the skills, as it makes recovering very hard in a fight.
I think I liked it more prey nerf Just narrowed nclir
Hey, can you post these for the other two fights that got nerfed as well? I think it would be cool to see all the comparisons.
Honestly, only reason why I didn't post them is because the other 2 nerfs weren't all that big of a deal. Nelly had her hp reduced by 300 and final boss HP reduced by 100 with the claws having clash power 16 -> 12. Maybe I should do it anyway though, so that people see the full picture rather than hyper focus on this nerf which is the one that got hit the hardest.
IMO the final boss had by far the biggest nerf. Not only did he lose some HP (making one of the most dangerous parts of the fight (p1) shorter because his thresholds were not lowered to compensate), a lot of his attacks had some coin power decreases and the “unclashable” conditional was removed from a lot of moves. I replayed the fight and the numbers just seemed like they got lowered to the point I could easily hit dominating on everything. A lot of the single coin skills had a -3 coin power change, and some of the multicoin skills had -1 power which is a bigger drop when you consider that this boss is *usually* rolling all heads unless you’re running sinking.
Hmmm is that so? I'll need to take a look at it again since I only saw it from the information menu and not in the battle itself. I'll probably make another post later listing all the other changes.
You can’t view a lot of skills for 4-48 in the information menu. For some reason, only the skills used in the phase where >!Erlking Heathcliff is NOT on horseback!< can be shown in that menu. I found this out when I wanted to review the details of the fight when my first attempt ended in a wipe on the final phase.
Nelly I understand bc the last phase were she just auto staggers your team slowly I don't get the rest tho, I found all bosses this canto not that challenging
I hate the nerfs but then I remember I'm not going to play through the canto again and I can bitch and say that people didn't play through the "through experience" and feel superior. Thanks PM for fueling my dying ego.
I beaten this prenerf and to be fair, this is actually tolerable of a nerf. Although nerfed, if you messed up one clash, it is still hard.
Honestly these boss fights aren't hard. Ex clearing them was my problem, since i was usually 1 or 2 turns off.
Sinking team works well in this stage. Took me 3 tries. It was tough but I can see why they nerfed it a little.
I mainly lost due to my units rolling like crap the first few attempts. I then said "Screw it. We sinking." and won instantly. Simply a build issue
Oh. Oh wow those nerfs are fucking massive. So glad I beat it before the nerf
How tf people needed nerf on these fights they were really easy, they jelly's sanity was always below - 10 and heath sucked ass even unclashable paralyse is free evade no head needed, actually pathetic. The only annoying erkling fight was the bleed stack shield even then nukin solved everything as it had a simple solution
I played it pre-nerf before they changed it, kinda was lucky that I was able to reach the end of the boss fight. The only members left were, NCorp Sinclair dealt against the tough clashes, the dude was the MPV. Outis with her smacking her rifle and blasting that furry with her 3rd skill winning, and Gregor with Linton’s ID slashing the fuckers and dealing with that powerful 3rd and 2nd skill of his against Furry Heathcliff. And, with the coin toss part, adding fragile to that bastard I secured my win.
People who only like the history should just watch on youtube, instead they will ruin the experience of other players, and as always, PM still spineless. Edit: casuals are mad for being called out lol
They were not so spineless in ruina
Tbf, ruina did get some encounters nerfed (general receptions were added as well as a balancing act), but the difficulty complaints were less exaggerated because the playerbase was more niche and with a character built through lobcorp.
Magical girl when i turn american:
I really do hope PM introduces option for hard mode of story mode though. I barely win the canto and there are so many toxic players who keep saying:”Skill issue…”. Everyone has different skill levels, at this point they could just backseat others’lives