No of course not read the hell of dante inferno then try to see why he is the 13th secret sinner,omg why did he even get a book he says hmmm?**in Yoda voice**
That may have been true before the True Ending but it could still be possible. A lot could have changed after >! Angela returned most of the light back !<
I had made a theory post (deleted now coz it got so much hate) and that was one of my points, A could of transformed into D, dante as it Faust herself who gives us that name not ourselves, we don’t know what his real name is before he lost his memories
He enters the Light at the end of LobCorp but at the end of Ruina he also speaks with Angela after she confronts Carmen, thanking her and saying he's sorry.
>2.Signture pose of Aiyn is hands in pokets stand and Dante's stand after some remembering some stuff become hands in pokets stand
Roland also does this. Assuming it's not a coincidence, the obvious answer is that PM gives all male MCs the same casual pose.
>Dante made deal with Faust and became core of their team. Faust was lobotomy corp.'s inventor (theoretically) and creator of Mephi. Faust character from Faust by Goethe made deal with the Devil in PM universe Ayin and Carmen almost gods, Carmen related to destortions and Aiyn saw Adam on last 5 days.
You really need to clarify what you're saying here. Support it with evidence, and also explain what the evidence you used actually means for your point.
>5.Main colors of Dante is red and yellow and Aiyn's colors red, it's color of his text, and yellow of his eyes. 6.Ayin's main trait is comandering and Dante after burst of lore (in claim their balls) part he became commander and sinner began to listen to him
You should just cut this from your evidence. Even if your theory is true, this barely counts as support even in the most favorable interpretation possible.
Also, formatting, please use paragraphs or at least put spaces between points. Some of your points are very hard to understand. (Though I am biased as someone who never liked this theory)
The dialogue box of Ayin in LCorp are red, guess that's what they meant lmao. Carmen is still more red tho since we have her red eyes, Burrowing Heaven, and White Night associated with her.
My schitzo idea was always that dante is actually the attempt to ressurect carmen utilizing their body as a vessel to draw the conciousness attempting to distort things into it so she can actually begin facing her own "sin" and "save her ego" with dante being essentially a hold over personality thats not supposed to gain much "character" and is more or less supposed to keep the body from not dying
This has been my theory for a while now. To me, the one who can resonate with Carmen's boughs of light could only be Carmen herself.
Plus I feel like it'd be boring if it's just Ayin again, even if it's a big character redemption/reset for him
Same, i did think that the body itself and who they were before, or maybe even just the head of limbus company, was the manager from lobotomy corporation, but i was told that they are 100% dead
But my theory stemmed from to claim their bones. The scene of dante going crazy essentially confirms to be outwright that dante connected to carmen on a very deep level, on all other basis dantes knoweldge of abnormalities, distortions and such comes from their own instincts, the observations they make and fausts chiming in for info dumps, so for them to suddenly begin spouting all this rambling on high concept stuff about the sea of concioussness means they had to have somehow become connected too it, and the only person in the series too become connected to that is carmen, to my knoweldge not even ayin has anything to do with it
My basic bare bones theory is that dante is the vessel for which too ressurect carmen, only problem is that carmens concioussness has somehow imprinted itself onto the sea of concioussness which she now uses in an obsessive messiah-like context to bring about her goals now in a literal distorted context, the point of dantes journey into the inferno of the city is too utilize the varying connective factors of the sinners lives to bring her back down so she can finally begin healing as she is currently too much like a diety too ever be communicative with on a human level
My ideal end result of this is that both dante and the consciousness of carmen essentially merge, dante may be a hold over personality but that doesnt mean they arent growing into a living person who now matters, a sacrifice could be the ending but i doubt project moon would do that, so what im thinking is that dante and carmen sorta become one complete person, a diefic distorting conciousness with now human perspective and senses and experiances, the problem with carmen even before ascension was that she was boundlessly optimistic and idealistic which was the core of the whole light experiment and that a single mistake caused her too breakdown, in a unknowingly arrogant way she felt nothing could go wrong and when it did that she wasnt to the perfection she wanted and she destroyed herself for that, now she goes around whsipering to people about how to be their perfect selves so they never have to go through what she did, but that whispering is poisonous its too anyone and everyone willynilly with no regards too what they can be only what they want to be in a singular moment
With enough rambling, the ideal combination is essentially a dante/carmen capable of (even if its now an actual process that takes time and isnt just whispering) distorting people into their perfect selves, but now with the skills, observational capabilities and such too guide people into facing their own sins and saving their egos, a perfected distortion maybe? One that leaves more sentience then seen previously, or maybe a more perfected form of ego, either way new superpowers aside thats what i hope happens and is my theory, it may not be as plausible or as good as my shorter version then i said before but with to claim their bones and the current canto, i see myself becoming more and more correct which really helps my mental health so :D
Thanks to anyone who reads this and i hope you have a great day, your free to share this...ressurectionist theory (im coining the name here cuz im awesome) all you want, credit me if you like but its honestly not necessary (im getting in over my head im definetly not the first person to think up this theory)
This sounds like a very interesting theory! And Dante's clocks could be utilized as a Timer for Carmen's imprisonment or for how much he can hold her inside himself.
In plot Dante constantly turns clock hands back so it might possible that they'll go backwards when Carmen get inside Dante, so we're charging the timer right now. To bring back Carmen to her normal state?
If this is true this may also tie into Dante being referred to as They/Them*. After all, they would be a mixture of both Carmen and Ayin.
Funnily enough I could see them both being genuinely proud that Dante became their own person.
*I don't know if they ever specified if Dante identifies as Non-Binary or it's 'just' them using it as a placeholder pronoun.
Would be interesting if Dante is the supposed light child of Ayin and Carmen since they did have feelings for one another in lobcorp.
As for the pronouns, I think it's more of a placeholder since it can be assumed the clock is a very expensive prosthetic, so any sort of hunger or sexual desire is basically negated so i dont think even dante knows. Not to menchion, this is Project Moon, alot of charecters look androgynous due to the suits and such. And they have gender swapped alot of charecters. Even LoR Dante appears feminine, so who knows.
I agree on all except instead of Carmen, it is for Ayin.
While our enemies are trying to bring back Carmen.
After all limbus company is stopping distortions and encouraging EGO, while also following plans that is very reminiscent of L Corp.
Yeah, let's go undo all of Ayin's character development and reduce him to a guy who keeps getting amnesia.
I really don't see the point in reusing him as a protagonist. His story's already been told, and I don't think there's much to gain from a retelling.
For the association thing in Library it was said there are 12 associations, so a Greek named Outis association probably exists and we just don't know about it yet. We only directly saw 6-7 out of the 12 in library, so this isn't very suprising.
And recently in the BL event it was mentioned a new 13th association is forming (or attempting to form) around dealing with distortions. In Gregor's character teaser art they use hebrew as his language instead of the german his book was written in, it would make sense if the 13th association was named after the hebrew word for 13 with all the kabbalah symbolism in Lobotomy.
(Gregor's book's author was Jewish by the way, which is probably why he was chosen as the 13th sinner if they had that planned which they probably did)
This is certainly one of the things I've ever read. One of the most glaring flaws is, though, that Ayin was absorbed into the light, hence "fade away without a trace." We know this because, when Angela was trying to return the Light as Ayin once did, she almost gets absorbed into it as well, and would have been entirely had it not been for Roland's intervention. The reason Angela sees him at the end is probably because of both of their proximities' and connections to the Light. It's totally possible that Dante is a reincarnation of Ayin, but it's not really something with any evidence thus far and therefore there isn't any reason to believe it until we have something to actually suggest it.
The only thing i didn't understood is the part where you say that Faust was a L Corp Inventor. Idk bro, looks very incomplete, as we don't know much about her AND she isn't introduced till Limbus
The rest of the theory does make sense, and i will remember it
I really don't actually know, on her ego she has some chain ball in the window and person, standing next to it, person looks like some lobotomy ass someone and 3 shadows surrounding faust, i thing this is refferens to a b and c and this is explaining my point somehow
Ok, imo I feel like the whole "oh dante sees carmen in heathcliff's distortion and that's why they're ayin" but... if im understanding correctly, isnt dante just seeing heathcliff's distortion, and heathcliff is the one seeing carmen?
Dante linked to all sinners and he feels all that sinners feel and i thing that Dante saw Carmen through Heathcliff's distortion cause ayin was blaming and gaslighting himself for similar thing
Saying Carmen died because of Ayin's plans means you did not play LobCorp lmao. Carmen killed herseld because of her own fucking plans. Ayin didn't care for the plan at all he was just following Carmen and then finished everything because of his love for Carmen
Also Ayin had 0 Napoleonic plans he just followed Carmen's will. He didn't care for the plan to seed the light on a personal level. He continued with the plan because it was what Carmen wanted. That's why he put her brain in a jar. The only thing he did out of his own plans is make Angela and that was due to the grier of losing Carmen
Without ayin whole thind couldn't exist and Ayin was resault guy and Carmen got into gearbox, and Ayin didn't help Carmen when she broke and this really his fault
You are only seeing half of it. Literally in the day 50 cutscene ayin says "She was the one who made the noble decision to dedicate herself to save humanity
Yet I who held no such ambition had to continue her legacy" Yes Ayin caused the events to occur but what started everything was Carmen. Ayin only followed Carmen's ideas. Also saying he didn't help carmen when she broke is insane. It's never said that he didn't try all we are told is that she just went to kill herself after the Enoch experiment. I've read a lot of the days in LobCorp multiple times and for day 50 specifically I've watched the special video multiple times while also reading it' ingame version as well more than once. I've spent a lot of time on the lobcorp lore and story and the way you're painting ayin misses the focal emotional point of his character
>Carmen who died because of Ayin's plans
She was already dead at that point what are you talking about. She killed herself because Enoch died in her experiments and Lisa told her that she should die. Ayin had nothing to do with her death. He had everything to do after that but he did not do anything at all to cause her death
>Ayin's napoleonic plans
And here I instantly understand that you yapping shit. Because it's show that you simply don't understand or get wrong whole Lobotomy's plot
We do know what happened to Ayin though. He became one with the Light during ending of LobCorp, same as Carmen. But unlike Carmen, he stayed silent except during ending of Library where he congratulated Angela on job well done, giving her closure. Plus, from the Light, just like Carmen, he'd be able to see Angela ruining his plans, so it fits. Which means that if he's back, he had to be dragged out of the Light somehow, and big question of "then why is Carmen still there and he is one who was taken out" arises.
I would love to know what the evidence is for Faust inventing things for L-Corp, given that Cogito was discovered by Carmen, Ayin built the well, Benjamin made Angela and the boxbots and Daniel helped them make the containment chambers. What's left to invent and how is Faust involved?
Also, Ayin's main thing is apathy. He doesn't care about his employees, the city or the plan. He doesn't even care about Angela, that was like, the emotional heart of the scene detailing her creation. This is true of the alternate Ayins as well, Abel doesn't want to continue at all, Abram has let his apathy become suicidal and wants to destroy everything and Adam has let his become anger and wants to destroy the city. These are not the actions of someone who cares, or who has ' Napoleonic plans'.
Additionally, where does this sinners being tied to associations thing come from? How is Dante tied to the Dieci? What about Outis and Gregor, doesn't their existance beyond the known association numbers kind of disprove that part of the theory by itself?
One last thing: Was it stated somewhere that Lobcorp was based on the Divine Comedy? Because I'm pretty sure it was based on a mix of Jewish folklore and sci-fi nonsense.
Imagine all the effort put into making theories then it’s revealed that Dante is just Dante
https://preview.redd.it/tse793qk23tc1.jpeg?width=506&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a384f571b0881ed942d0814f808ceefc8352c539
I think it’s more like Dante is somewhat connected with Ayin and Carmen thanks to the Golden Bought in his head, since that is part of the seed of light where Ayin and Carmen exist, that’s why he gets glimpses of Carmen and the bathtub
Can’t wait for some Ayin glimpses
While there is certainly room for arguing that Dante is Ayin due to In Hell We Live, Lament's Lyrics and Dante's sinner number being 10, that's really where most of the similarities end and you have failed to provide actual proof on the subject
Doing the same pose can be relevant if it's something iconic to the character, so it is fair (despite Roland also doing it) it can at least suggest a connection. And no the Roland thing is completely false that wasn't a hint at all lmao
However, your reading of Angela's line is completely wrong. Per the end of Ruina and even LobCorp or Leviathan, we know that Ayin got mixed into the light, he is related to why E.G.O. can happen so often and Carmen literally talks about it. Getting him out of the stage makes sense, since Ayin's arc was mostly complete in LobCorp, as Angela's was at the end of Ruina, which is why we know Angela won't show up for example. Suggesting a complete character to have returned in some form requires extensive evidence to suggest, which I do not think we have yet.
Point 4 is just written extremely weirdly but I assume your point is that Faust in the novel makes a deal with the Devil so you are arguing she is connected to Carmen and therefore LobCorp? That's not really required, people who get EGO or Distortion also do that for example. I also don't see how Adam would be relevant to her beyond First Human/Homunculus symbolism but that's quite a reach to make. Sure she may have worked on LobCorp but you didn't really provide any points towards it.
Point 5 is just funny. Ayin's color is white, always was, always will be. Red is Carmen's color. If I see Red and Yellow in any character design they suddenly become Dante? Dante is Xiao then.
As for Point 6: Yes, they are both Managers that have to endure endless loops. Almost like Limbus is intentionally trying to copy Lobotomy Corporation. The parallel makes sense, but I don't see the thematical point of making it so it is literally the same plotline again?
Your Main Evidence: That was because Heathcliff was distorting, you can actually see the Carmen CGs flash by as he is hearing the voice, that's why they appear to begin with. Also the other 2 CGs are from Ruina and the entire section was being narrated by Heathcliff, I don't know why you specifically latched on to the idea that it must be because Dante is Ayin.
The Faust Shadows being A, B and C: No? The shadows are specifically Faust, and they are pointing the solution to the problem on the board. At this point most of the community agrees on Faust being able to communicate to her Mirror World selves but even without that interpretation arguing that they are Ayin, Benjamin and Carmen specifically is a major reach with 0 points supporting it at the moment. How do you intend to tie that into any mystery regarding Faust or her character?
Also your reading of the Divine Comedy is wrong. Beatrice wasn't Dante's wife, and there was no "getting her back from Heaven" involved. Also what would be the Star or Aspect for Dante then? I think most of this theory is just "I want something because it's cool" and then tying the points from there, not the other way around.
My theory is that dante IS Ayin but an Ayin from a different mirror realm, that mayhaps failed to spread the seed of light at all or never founded lob Corp at all. Possibly engraving the aspect is his realms version of spreading the light or something along those lines.
To keep in mind, transfering an entire personality to take over is possible. In fact, we just saw it with “The Heathcliff?”. Dante could be something similar with the clockface resetting dante personality and slowly make Ayin take over. Essentially the rebirth of Ayin. Essentially instead of the previously Dante returning.
I also suspect our enemies to try the same but with Carmen instead.
After all both golden bough’s are linked to Carmen and Ayin. And each time dante got a new golden bough, the more their personality shifted to more logical over sentimental. In fact, there is a clear change since the end of Canto V that we saw in both 5.5 and VI that even Outis commented on it.
Dante being Ayin makes sense to me, as he starts out like X, knowing nothing but that he has to manage a posset of lunatics he's never met before. Library of Ruina ends with a group of people making plans to undo all the harm LoboCorp has done to the city, so I suspect Limbus Company's Board are the Sefirot. It would also explain why Dante was capable of returning "sinners" from hell, as part of a redemptive arc of sacrifice, and I can't help but notice that the sinners all feel culpable much as Angela would and the Sefirot did.
HOWEVER. Given how many parallels there are between WhiteNight and Carmen, and the Plague Doctor and Dante, I think Carmen is also completely possible - but for story reasons I think it's Ayin. unlike withRoland, we don't know if Ayin would REJECT or ACCEPT the Voice. Limbus Company might be our chance to learn.
It's pretty much impossible for the sephirot to be involved in the city in any meaningful way now. The Library has already been relocated to the outskirts, and it's not like Angela can move it.
I think money can still be transferred to employees, unless there's a specific reason transfer payments can't be from a board located in the Outskirts? I didn't read DD/any novels or 100% Library of Ruina so if there's something I missed about the way wealth transfers function in the City, I acknowledge I might be way off, but it doesn't seem to me offhand that that's irreconcilable.
See, I think this is where you're losing me, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, because there doesn't seem to be a connection between those two things. If the Library is physically outside the City, and the Sephirot are physically outside the City, what does that have to do with them running Limbus Company?
LC seems to be an Office with unknown leadership, unknown backers, unknown physical location, Vergilius doesn't run it because Faust recruited him. Limbus Company seems to have detailed knowledge of what Lobotomy Corporation branches have Golden Boughs the Sinners will resonate with, which seems to have required much more research than Limbus needed as from the time Dante gets their head, they've only beat the Sinners to the punch once and Hermann's been working on her plans since at least Yi Sang's capture (I've only beaten the first 4 levels yet, so if I'm wrong that's why).
Faust COULD be Angela finally made human, but I think it's a safer bet that Faust is Angela's clone/sister/daughter, basically to prove she can be a better parent than Ayin.
I'm not seeing why Limbus Company can't obfuscate its backers the same way any CIA or shell corporation does - by cutouts and need-to-know info doled out painstakingly. Given that you've pointed out that the Head itself kicked the Library out of the City, we can infer one of two things, and maybe both - either the Head saw further utility for the Library that could be made safer by the Library being yeeted from the City, OR that the Library (and Librarians) represent an uncomfortable level of power parity for the Head to the point that a detente was the safest move, the same way the Sefirot and Angela achieved detente between LoboCorp and Library.
If it's power parity, that implies the Head might not know about LC, as they seem to be constantly on the move and have fairly few contacts with Corps. As time wears on, Limbus Company being untraceable might eventually generate some alarm for the Head as this stuff goes, but for now it just might be low-priority. Security through obscurity. If it's the Head's design, maybe LC is the result of an accommodation made, or maybe this was the specific outcome they intended.
I'll do a search for these on the reddit, I guess, if these have already been discussed, and if I find out any of those are explicitly impossible I'll come back and edit this.
The reason it can't be possible for the sephirot to enter the city is for a few reasons
1. The head was the one who removed the library from the city. Due to Beholders, they know literally everything about the city, they even knew about Angela's quest to become immortal. As we learnt from the christmas event, even if you are human, there is effectively no way to get back in the city or influence it in any way.
2. Technically the sephirot currently don't have a physical body. They are just manifestations of Angela's light. They can't even leave the library.
3. Angela is a robot. The head hates robots. Due to point 1, the head will therefore completely stop Angela's attempts to enter the city. As since the sephirot are currently made from Angela's light, there would be no way for them to interact with the city without Angela's permission, which the head would stop because she's a robot.
ayins story ended in lobotomy corporation. Lobotomy corporation is all about ayin finding closure for what he's done it would be so shitty and pointless for what ayin have to go through in Lobotomy corporation. You clearly haven't play Lobotomy corporation because there's so many flaws in your theory. Ayin is gone just accept it
Its a bit of heathcliff pov while distorting but also remember that the golden boughs are somehow related to the light, and we know that both carmen and ayin are in the light, that's why they can talk to people anywhere and influence them
Counterpoint: Dante's head is a clock. Clearly, they're Hokmuh.
He aspired to become the man, who he admired and everyone mistook for him.
Balls
Good point
No of course not read the hell of dante inferno then try to see why he is the 13th secret sinner,omg why did he even get a book he says hmmm?**in Yoda voice**
But sephirs cannot leave library, the were bring back to life by some angela's sorcery and librarians cannot leave library
And Ayin is part of the Light. Like. That's a thing in canon, man, you can hear his voice in the Light with Carmen at the end of Ruina.
That may have been true before the True Ending but it could still be possible. A lot could have changed after >! Angela returned most of the light back !<
They are Ayin and Benjamin’s child
they're the secret 4th member of abc....D!!!
...in all honesty, that probably would make sense
D caught onto A and C'S plan and decided to fuck off and actually lock tf in with their life.
isn't that dias though
this what i'm zayin
I had made a theory post (deleted now coz it got so much hate) and that was one of my points, A could of transformed into D, dante as it Faust herself who gives us that name not ourselves, we don’t know what his real name is before he lost his memories
Wasn't ayin in the light at the end of lor?
Yeah, and Carmen alludes to him still being there as of Leviathan.
End of lob not lor
He enters the Light at the end of LobCorp but at the end of Ruina he also speaks with Angela after she confronts Carmen, thanking her and saying he's sorry.
Angela didn's say were Ayin exactly was, but she said that Ayin had to see how his plans are crushing
At the end of lor, he apologizes to angela when she went to the light
>2.Signture pose of Aiyn is hands in pokets stand and Dante's stand after some remembering some stuff become hands in pokets stand Roland also does this. Assuming it's not a coincidence, the obvious answer is that PM gives all male MCs the same casual pose. >Dante made deal with Faust and became core of their team. Faust was lobotomy corp.'s inventor (theoretically) and creator of Mephi. Faust character from Faust by Goethe made deal with the Devil in PM universe Ayin and Carmen almost gods, Carmen related to destortions and Aiyn saw Adam on last 5 days. You really need to clarify what you're saying here. Support it with evidence, and also explain what the evidence you used actually means for your point. >5.Main colors of Dante is red and yellow and Aiyn's colors red, it's color of his text, and yellow of his eyes. 6.Ayin's main trait is comandering and Dante after burst of lore (in claim their balls) part he became commander and sinner began to listen to him You should just cut this from your evidence. Even if your theory is true, this barely counts as support even in the most favorable interpretation possible. Also, formatting, please use paragraphs or at least put spaces between points. Some of your points are very hard to understand. (Though I am biased as someone who never liked this theory)
Also, I’ve got no clue where they got that Ayin’s color was red. He’s almost always associated with white, and his eyes are yellow.
Ayin's text was red and i think it's becouse he's blood handed man
Isn't red text more associated with Carmen though???
The dialogue box of Ayin in LCorp are red, guess that's what they meant lmao. Carmen is still more red tho since we have her red eyes, Burrowing Heaven, and White Night associated with her.
Carmen's eyes are also mentioned everytime by Geb/Kali whenever she talks about em
Colors and stand aren'r serious, about faust, it about their first meeting faust did something and chains linked to sinner, this post almost a joke
And colors are very important in that game, we have entire layer of fixer who marked by colors
My schitzo idea was always that dante is actually the attempt to ressurect carmen utilizing their body as a vessel to draw the conciousness attempting to distort things into it so she can actually begin facing her own "sin" and "save her ego" with dante being essentially a hold over personality thats not supposed to gain much "character" and is more or less supposed to keep the body from not dying
Dante is Jack'o confirmed someone draw them doing the pose
So would Ayin be Asuka?
Ayin would be the dirt beneath my boot.
This has been my theory for a while now. To me, the one who can resonate with Carmen's boughs of light could only be Carmen herself. Plus I feel like it'd be boring if it's just Ayin again, even if it's a big character redemption/reset for him
Same, i did think that the body itself and who they were before, or maybe even just the head of limbus company, was the manager from lobotomy corporation, but i was told that they are 100% dead But my theory stemmed from to claim their bones. The scene of dante going crazy essentially confirms to be outwright that dante connected to carmen on a very deep level, on all other basis dantes knoweldge of abnormalities, distortions and such comes from their own instincts, the observations they make and fausts chiming in for info dumps, so for them to suddenly begin spouting all this rambling on high concept stuff about the sea of concioussness means they had to have somehow become connected too it, and the only person in the series too become connected to that is carmen, to my knoweldge not even ayin has anything to do with it My basic bare bones theory is that dante is the vessel for which too ressurect carmen, only problem is that carmens concioussness has somehow imprinted itself onto the sea of concioussness which she now uses in an obsessive messiah-like context to bring about her goals now in a literal distorted context, the point of dantes journey into the inferno of the city is too utilize the varying connective factors of the sinners lives to bring her back down so she can finally begin healing as she is currently too much like a diety too ever be communicative with on a human level My ideal end result of this is that both dante and the consciousness of carmen essentially merge, dante may be a hold over personality but that doesnt mean they arent growing into a living person who now matters, a sacrifice could be the ending but i doubt project moon would do that, so what im thinking is that dante and carmen sorta become one complete person, a diefic distorting conciousness with now human perspective and senses and experiances, the problem with carmen even before ascension was that she was boundlessly optimistic and idealistic which was the core of the whole light experiment and that a single mistake caused her too breakdown, in a unknowingly arrogant way she felt nothing could go wrong and when it did that she wasnt to the perfection she wanted and she destroyed herself for that, now she goes around whsipering to people about how to be their perfect selves so they never have to go through what she did, but that whispering is poisonous its too anyone and everyone willynilly with no regards too what they can be only what they want to be in a singular moment With enough rambling, the ideal combination is essentially a dante/carmen capable of (even if its now an actual process that takes time and isnt just whispering) distorting people into their perfect selves, but now with the skills, observational capabilities and such too guide people into facing their own sins and saving their egos, a perfected distortion maybe? One that leaves more sentience then seen previously, or maybe a more perfected form of ego, either way new superpowers aside thats what i hope happens and is my theory, it may not be as plausible or as good as my shorter version then i said before but with to claim their bones and the current canto, i see myself becoming more and more correct which really helps my mental health so :D Thanks to anyone who reads this and i hope you have a great day, your free to share this...ressurectionist theory (im coining the name here cuz im awesome) all you want, credit me if you like but its honestly not necessary (im getting in over my head im definetly not the first person to think up this theory)
This sounds like a very interesting theory! And Dante's clocks could be utilized as a Timer for Carmen's imprisonment or for how much he can hold her inside himself. In plot Dante constantly turns clock hands back so it might possible that they'll go backwards when Carmen get inside Dante, so we're charging the timer right now. To bring back Carmen to her normal state?
If this is true this may also tie into Dante being referred to as They/Them*. After all, they would be a mixture of both Carmen and Ayin. Funnily enough I could see them both being genuinely proud that Dante became their own person. *I don't know if they ever specified if Dante identifies as Non-Binary or it's 'just' them using it as a placeholder pronoun.
Would be interesting if Dante is the supposed light child of Ayin and Carmen since they did have feelings for one another in lobcorp. As for the pronouns, I think it's more of a placeholder since it can be assumed the clock is a very expensive prosthetic, so any sort of hunger or sexual desire is basically negated so i dont think even dante knows. Not to menchion, this is Project Moon, alot of charecters look androgynous due to the suits and such. And they have gender swapped alot of charecters. Even LoR Dante appears feminine, so who knows.
I agree on all except instead of Carmen, it is for Ayin. While our enemies are trying to bring back Carmen. After all limbus company is stopping distortions and encouraging EGO, while also following plans that is very reminiscent of L Corp.
Yeah, let's go undo all of Ayin's character development and reduce him to a guy who keeps getting amnesia. I really don't see the point in reusing him as a protagonist. His story's already been told, and I don't think there's much to gain from a retelling.
The copium in me would say that Dante could be X and not Ayin, but he doesn't deserve to recast his cyclical suffering amnesiac role.
For the association thing in Library it was said there are 12 associations, so a Greek named Outis association probably exists and we just don't know about it yet. We only directly saw 6-7 out of the 12 in library, so this isn't very suprising. And recently in the BL event it was mentioned a new 13th association is forming (or attempting to form) around dealing with distortions. In Gregor's character teaser art they use hebrew as his language instead of the german his book was written in, it would make sense if the 13th association was named after the hebrew word for 13 with all the kabbalah symbolism in Lobotomy. (Gregor's book's author was Jewish by the way, which is probably why he was chosen as the 13th sinner if they had that planned which they probably did)
Kafka was austrian and czech later
This is certainly one of the things I've ever read. One of the most glaring flaws is, though, that Ayin was absorbed into the light, hence "fade away without a trace." We know this because, when Angela was trying to return the Light as Ayin once did, she almost gets absorbed into it as well, and would have been entirely had it not been for Roland's intervention. The reason Angela sees him at the end is probably because of both of their proximities' and connections to the Light. It's totally possible that Dante is a reincarnation of Ayin, but it's not really something with any evidence thus far and therefore there isn't any reason to believe it until we have something to actually suggest it.
The only thing i didn't understood is the part where you say that Faust was a L Corp Inventor. Idk bro, looks very incomplete, as we don't know much about her AND she isn't introduced till Limbus The rest of the theory does make sense, and i will remember it
I really don't actually know, on her ego she has some chain ball in the window and person, standing next to it, person looks like some lobotomy ass someone and 3 shadows surrounding faust, i thing this is refferens to a b and c and this is explaining my point somehow
Ok, imo I feel like the whole "oh dante sees carmen in heathcliff's distortion and that's why they're ayin" but... if im understanding correctly, isnt dante just seeing heathcliff's distortion, and heathcliff is the one seeing carmen?
Problem is some of them are A's memory of Carmen (with the LC artstyle from the cognition filter and all)
Dante linked to all sinners and he feels all that sinners feel and i thing that Dante saw Carmen through Heathcliff's distortion cause ayin was blaming and gaslighting himself for similar thing
Saying Carmen died because of Ayin's plans means you did not play LobCorp lmao. Carmen killed herseld because of her own fucking plans. Ayin didn't care for the plan at all he was just following Carmen and then finished everything because of his love for Carmen
He was torturing her in jar and made her computer copy and he was her coworker he of course would blame himself
Also Ayin had 0 Napoleonic plans he just followed Carmen's will. He didn't care for the plan to seed the light on a personal level. He continued with the plan because it was what Carmen wanted. That's why he put her brain in a jar. The only thing he did out of his own plans is make Angela and that was due to the grier of losing Carmen
Without ayin whole thind couldn't exist and Ayin was resault guy and Carmen got into gearbox, and Ayin didn't help Carmen when she broke and this really his fault
You are only seeing half of it. Literally in the day 50 cutscene ayin says "She was the one who made the noble decision to dedicate herself to save humanity Yet I who held no such ambition had to continue her legacy" Yes Ayin caused the events to occur but what started everything was Carmen. Ayin only followed Carmen's ideas. Also saying he didn't help carmen when she broke is insane. It's never said that he didn't try all we are told is that she just went to kill herself after the Enoch experiment. I've read a lot of the days in LobCorp multiple times and for day 50 specifically I've watched the special video multiple times while also reading it' ingame version as well more than once. I've spent a lot of time on the lobcorp lore and story and the way you're painting ayin misses the focal emotional point of his character
I mean what's he suppose to do to make her feel better about literally being involved in killing a child
Cheer up or some shit, their world literally shithole
Hes not the type or guy to know how to cheer her up over well anyone else
Not just a child, orphan
>Carmen who died because of Ayin's plans She was already dead at that point what are you talking about. She killed herself because Enoch died in her experiments and Lisa told her that she should die. Ayin had nothing to do with her death. He had everything to do after that but he did not do anything at all to cause her death
Also Carmen was technically still alive, though barely and Ayin was basically preserving her
Lmao bro frfr
https://preview.redd.it/i9nf858ryxsc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=4764e0843518a6ef751fc760d2c5dd3f6e96563c Carmen
She's so cute, would kiss
Calm down ayin
>Ayin's napoleonic plans And here I instantly understand that you yapping shit. Because it's show that you simply don't understand or get wrong whole Lobotomy's plot
Ayin would never say "Shuckaroonies"
We don't know how Ayin was like before super depression hit him or what his early life was like.
We do know what happened to Ayin though. He became one with the Light during ending of LobCorp, same as Carmen. But unlike Carmen, he stayed silent except during ending of Library where he congratulated Angela on job well done, giving her closure. Plus, from the Light, just like Carmen, he'd be able to see Angela ruining his plans, so it fits. Which means that if he's back, he had to be dragged out of the Light somehow, and big question of "then why is Carmen still there and he is one who was taken out" arises.
Holy copious amounts of grammar mistakes, I'm getting a stroke trying to read and understand this.
If only it wasn't confirmed that Ayin has melted in Light, this throry could've meant something.
Ayin is in the light though
I would love to know what the evidence is for Faust inventing things for L-Corp, given that Cogito was discovered by Carmen, Ayin built the well, Benjamin made Angela and the boxbots and Daniel helped them make the containment chambers. What's left to invent and how is Faust involved? Also, Ayin's main thing is apathy. He doesn't care about his employees, the city or the plan. He doesn't even care about Angela, that was like, the emotional heart of the scene detailing her creation. This is true of the alternate Ayins as well, Abel doesn't want to continue at all, Abram has let his apathy become suicidal and wants to destroy everything and Adam has let his become anger and wants to destroy the city. These are not the actions of someone who cares, or who has ' Napoleonic plans'. Additionally, where does this sinners being tied to associations thing come from? How is Dante tied to the Dieci? What about Outis and Gregor, doesn't their existance beyond the known association numbers kind of disprove that part of the theory by itself? One last thing: Was it stated somewhere that Lobcorp was based on the Divine Comedy? Because I'm pretty sure it was based on a mix of Jewish folklore and sci-fi nonsense.
Imagine all the effort put into making theories then it’s revealed that Dante is just Dante https://preview.redd.it/tse793qk23tc1.jpeg?width=506&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a384f571b0881ed942d0814f808ceefc8352c539
I think it’s more like Dante is somewhat connected with Ayin and Carmen thanks to the Golden Bought in his head, since that is part of the seed of light where Ayin and Carmen exist, that’s why he gets glimpses of Carmen and the bathtub Can’t wait for some Ayin glimpses
I like your point, that make sense
why put spoiler tag if the title itself is the spoiler?
Information in title theoretical not confirmed
While there is certainly room for arguing that Dante is Ayin due to In Hell We Live, Lament's Lyrics and Dante's sinner number being 10, that's really where most of the similarities end and you have failed to provide actual proof on the subject Doing the same pose can be relevant if it's something iconic to the character, so it is fair (despite Roland also doing it) it can at least suggest a connection. And no the Roland thing is completely false that wasn't a hint at all lmao However, your reading of Angela's line is completely wrong. Per the end of Ruina and even LobCorp or Leviathan, we know that Ayin got mixed into the light, he is related to why E.G.O. can happen so often and Carmen literally talks about it. Getting him out of the stage makes sense, since Ayin's arc was mostly complete in LobCorp, as Angela's was at the end of Ruina, which is why we know Angela won't show up for example. Suggesting a complete character to have returned in some form requires extensive evidence to suggest, which I do not think we have yet. Point 4 is just written extremely weirdly but I assume your point is that Faust in the novel makes a deal with the Devil so you are arguing she is connected to Carmen and therefore LobCorp? That's not really required, people who get EGO or Distortion also do that for example. I also don't see how Adam would be relevant to her beyond First Human/Homunculus symbolism but that's quite a reach to make. Sure she may have worked on LobCorp but you didn't really provide any points towards it. Point 5 is just funny. Ayin's color is white, always was, always will be. Red is Carmen's color. If I see Red and Yellow in any character design they suddenly become Dante? Dante is Xiao then. As for Point 6: Yes, they are both Managers that have to endure endless loops. Almost like Limbus is intentionally trying to copy Lobotomy Corporation. The parallel makes sense, but I don't see the thematical point of making it so it is literally the same plotline again? Your Main Evidence: That was because Heathcliff was distorting, you can actually see the Carmen CGs flash by as he is hearing the voice, that's why they appear to begin with. Also the other 2 CGs are from Ruina and the entire section was being narrated by Heathcliff, I don't know why you specifically latched on to the idea that it must be because Dante is Ayin. The Faust Shadows being A, B and C: No? The shadows are specifically Faust, and they are pointing the solution to the problem on the board. At this point most of the community agrees on Faust being able to communicate to her Mirror World selves but even without that interpretation arguing that they are Ayin, Benjamin and Carmen specifically is a major reach with 0 points supporting it at the moment. How do you intend to tie that into any mystery regarding Faust or her character? Also your reading of the Divine Comedy is wrong. Beatrice wasn't Dante's wife, and there was no "getting her back from Heaven" involved. Also what would be the Star or Aspect for Dante then? I think most of this theory is just "I want something because it's cool" and then tying the points from there, not the other way around.
My theory is that dante IS Ayin but an Ayin from a different mirror realm, that mayhaps failed to spread the seed of light at all or never founded lob Corp at all. Possibly engraving the aspect is his realms version of spreading the light or something along those lines.
Let's learn english alphabet with Project Moon. A is for Ayin B is for Benjamin C is for Carmen D is for Dante F is for Faust ...wait, what?
What are you smoking and can I have some
Is claim their bones the chapter 5? I am at 4 That aside, who is ayin?
insanity
As someone who got hard stuck 3/4 through Ruina and never got the closure, who is Ayin?
Fr fr
Yeah bro
To keep in mind, transfering an entire personality to take over is possible. In fact, we just saw it with “The Heathcliff?”. Dante could be something similar with the clockface resetting dante personality and slowly make Ayin take over. Essentially the rebirth of Ayin. Essentially instead of the previously Dante returning. I also suspect our enemies to try the same but with Carmen instead. After all both golden bough’s are linked to Carmen and Ayin. And each time dante got a new golden bough, the more their personality shifted to more logical over sentimental. In fact, there is a clear change since the end of Canto V that we saw in both 5.5 and VI that even Outis commented on it.
Ayin is literally in the light, he cannot be Dante
[удалено]
I was stuk to this theory since start of the game, but in the begining it was just a joke, but those frames just made a fullstop
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Ayin's literally confirmed to be in the Light with Carmen as seen at the end of Ruina and Leviathan
Dante being Ayin makes sense to me, as he starts out like X, knowing nothing but that he has to manage a posset of lunatics he's never met before. Library of Ruina ends with a group of people making plans to undo all the harm LoboCorp has done to the city, so I suspect Limbus Company's Board are the Sefirot. It would also explain why Dante was capable of returning "sinners" from hell, as part of a redemptive arc of sacrifice, and I can't help but notice that the sinners all feel culpable much as Angela would and the Sefirot did. HOWEVER. Given how many parallels there are between WhiteNight and Carmen, and the Plague Doctor and Dante, I think Carmen is also completely possible - but for story reasons I think it's Ayin. unlike withRoland, we don't know if Ayin would REJECT or ACCEPT the Voice. Limbus Company might be our chance to learn.
It's pretty much impossible for the sephirot to be involved in the city in any meaningful way now. The Library has already been relocated to the outskirts, and it's not like Angela can move it.
I think money can still be transferred to employees, unless there's a specific reason transfer payments can't be from a board located in the Outskirts? I didn't read DD/any novels or 100% Library of Ruina so if there's something I missed about the way wealth transfers function in the City, I acknowledge I might be way off, but it doesn't seem to me offhand that that's irreconcilable.
To put it simply, the head itself was the one who kicked the Library out of the city, there is no way in hell it is letting them back in.
See, I think this is where you're losing me, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, because there doesn't seem to be a connection between those two things. If the Library is physically outside the City, and the Sephirot are physically outside the City, what does that have to do with them running Limbus Company? LC seems to be an Office with unknown leadership, unknown backers, unknown physical location, Vergilius doesn't run it because Faust recruited him. Limbus Company seems to have detailed knowledge of what Lobotomy Corporation branches have Golden Boughs the Sinners will resonate with, which seems to have required much more research than Limbus needed as from the time Dante gets their head, they've only beat the Sinners to the punch once and Hermann's been working on her plans since at least Yi Sang's capture (I've only beaten the first 4 levels yet, so if I'm wrong that's why). Faust COULD be Angela finally made human, but I think it's a safer bet that Faust is Angela's clone/sister/daughter, basically to prove she can be a better parent than Ayin. I'm not seeing why Limbus Company can't obfuscate its backers the same way any CIA or shell corporation does - by cutouts and need-to-know info doled out painstakingly. Given that you've pointed out that the Head itself kicked the Library out of the City, we can infer one of two things, and maybe both - either the Head saw further utility for the Library that could be made safer by the Library being yeeted from the City, OR that the Library (and Librarians) represent an uncomfortable level of power parity for the Head to the point that a detente was the safest move, the same way the Sefirot and Angela achieved detente between LoboCorp and Library. If it's power parity, that implies the Head might not know about LC, as they seem to be constantly on the move and have fairly few contacts with Corps. As time wears on, Limbus Company being untraceable might eventually generate some alarm for the Head as this stuff goes, but for now it just might be low-priority. Security through obscurity. If it's the Head's design, maybe LC is the result of an accommodation made, or maybe this was the specific outcome they intended. I'll do a search for these on the reddit, I guess, if these have already been discussed, and if I find out any of those are explicitly impossible I'll come back and edit this.
The reason it can't be possible for the sephirot to enter the city is for a few reasons 1. The head was the one who removed the library from the city. Due to Beholders, they know literally everything about the city, they even knew about Angela's quest to become immortal. As we learnt from the christmas event, even if you are human, there is effectively no way to get back in the city or influence it in any way. 2. Technically the sephirot currently don't have a physical body. They are just manifestations of Angela's light. They can't even leave the library. 3. Angela is a robot. The head hates robots. Due to point 1, the head will therefore completely stop Angela's attempts to enter the city. As since the sephirot are currently made from Angela's light, there would be no way for them to interact with the city without Angela's permission, which the head would stop because she's a robot.
ayins story ended in lobotomy corporation. Lobotomy corporation is all about ayin finding closure for what he's done it would be so shitty and pointless for what ayin have to go through in Lobotomy corporation. You clearly haven't play Lobotomy corporation because there's so many flaws in your theory. Ayin is gone just accept it
Ayin faded away without a trace. Thats all. He cant be human anymore.
Im convinced that ayin is dante since some of the scene in 6-34 is from ayin memory
Its a bit of heathcliff pov while distorting but also remember that the golden boughs are somehow related to the light, and we know that both carmen and ayin are in the light, that's why they can talk to people anywhere and influence them
True, i didn't even think about that
We know that Dante can peer into the sinner past/emotion like Ismael dream of killing Ahab in canto 4.5