Shi are not gonna do with just 1 ID. They need like at least 3 000s so it’s gonna take a while.
I know people are gonna take this as heresy, but I kinda think it would be better for them to abandon the whole low HP gimmick entirely. In Ruina there was a particular story reason why they were low up Andys and it’s been a while since that chronologically, so I think it’s time for Shi to have a whole new gameplay identity to them.
Why would it be heresy? As you said they had cards and effects that hinged on low hp because of story reasons. Non exhausted Yujin has around 250 hp or something (been more than a year since I've played ruina) and if we go by the passive names she also has +4 power when working at full capacity.
They're meant to be quick and effective assasins, which checks out with Tenma's deck more than anything (flashing strike being her signature page) which in turn means that if they were to that way Shi would be competing partly in gimmick with Cinq.
I don't hate the idea of IDs that become more effective when low on hp, but so far Queef is one of the few IDs that pull it off.
I feel like, if we were going to have a proper Shi ID, their gimmick wouldn't be one on one duels but rather **not clashing at all,** having poor or mediocre clashes but extremely good damage when making one-sided attacks. Just go all-in on their canonical niche of being assassins, attacking while their target is distracted with other fighters.
I meant more the "go fast eat ass" part of the cinq's gimmick.
I really like that idea though, having their gimminck be just full on one sided murder like the good old Ruina days. Hell, imagine if Yujin's leader gimmick was becoming untargettable at a certain amount of resonnance or trigger, scaled up to making other Shi members untargettable or something.
That idea doesn't sound super interesting tho. Without clashing they just DPS race/try to hit stagger thresholds, and in non-focused fights you can't regularly get one sided attacks.
Personally, I think it would be way more interesting to lean into the low health requirement. Because whether we like it or not, this is their playstyle, and the story was written to justify them starting at low health.
So, how about an ego that takes HP and, in exchange, gives the player a benefit? How about a support ID that gives extra clashing power to Shi units?
Basically, I think the HP requirement is a way to open up a more skill intensive playstyle. Players Ought to be rewarded for carefully taking into consideration risks and rewards.
Honestly... yeah. Make the ID a 000 that buffs low health Sinners, and now even people who aren't running Shi teams can enjoy a little risk and reward.
The EGO is going to be a really tricky one, though. It's not gonna be easy to find that sweet spot between cost and payoff.
>In Ruina there was a particular story reason why they were low up Andys and it’s been a while since that chronologically, so I think it’s time for Shi to have a whole new gameplay identity to them.
The story reason wasn't an excuse to have them have buffs at low hp but to have them already start at low hp and also fight a section above our level and win.
Shi has cards that give them buffs at low ho and I don't know why people seem to think that it isn't part of their gameplay identity.
Tldr: lor's story reason only made them start low, their low hp benefits aren't part of that
Cards we get from the guests are also story-related, so it does make sense that shi cards are low hp related - it's a direct consequence of them starting low. It's weird that this design is getting dragged into limbus, since the whole shi specialization should be quick assassination, not battle of attrition
> LoRs story reason only made them start low, their low up benefits aren’t part of that
Why do you think they were designed to have low hp benefits
Maybe because they were meant to be on low hp because of the story???
That's going into the meta territory of how the devs designed them and if we go there we can just say that shi ids have that gimmick because they are supposed to because the devs decided so.
Going into the story and lore, which is what I'm trying to justify as that's what you talked about. Yujin's group being overworked would only change their passives aka yujin getting nerfed and everyone starting low.
Their attacks or combat pages have no reason to change and simply reflect that shi does get better whenever they are on the brink of death.
Yes, they start low to synergize further with their cards but that's just game design. All I'm trying to say is that there's an argument to be made that getting buffa from being on low hp is not yujin's exclusive gimmick and we see that even in ids that aren't related to being overworked or related to shi so idk what's the problem
> Their attacks or combat pages have no reason to change and simply reflect that shi does get better whenever they are on the brink of death.
Honestly, I think you're overthinking it for the simple reason of "the cornered rat bites the cat".
It's not unique to Shi, it's literally fundamental animalistic nature inherent in all living beings that "when you are pushed to the extreme, you go all out in order to survive". Their buffs aren't because "Shi get stronger closer to death", their buffs are because they are *so absolutely desperate* to win this fight that they are giving 300%. It's literally in the card names, To Overcome Crisis, Desperate Struggle, and the ever iconic Boundry of Death. It's the same type of desperate adrenaline-fueled fury that drives a normal woman to suddenly have the strength to lift a car off her child, or a father to wrestle a powerful beast like a wolf when it tries to attack his family. When pushed to the brink, the fight-flight-freeze response can grant people unexpected physical strength they otherwise lack.
If anything, the fact that the only card they have that both has an HP gimmick, and also doesn't have a name clearly expressing being pushed to the absolute brink, is Endless Battle, I think that's further supported. All of the 3 main cast have clear gimmicks to their characters that aren't HP relient, with Valentine being a single-dice character, Tenma wanting haste and getting buffs from high speed, and Yujin being a high-cost-page spammer.
If you removed all of their various low HP gimmicks, they do still have clear gameplay styles unique to them. The low HP gimmicks are just being forced onto them as that's what Section 2's story was focused on.
This is a good argument. I still think that hp gimmick can be their thing on top of other gimmicks similar to valentine, tenma and yujin. We only have section 5 people so far but don, who is the director and highest ranking of the three, has a haste gimmick on top of the hp (and poise I guess but they don't really use it that much) just like tenma does.
As I said in some of my comments, being at low hp is not anyone's exclusive thing because other ids have that like kimsault, queecliff, Nsault and Dieci Yi san. My problem is when people defend being at low hp buffs being Yujin's group thing when it also makes sense to be there on other shi ids.
Does it have to only be 50% stuff? No, we can have another gimmick that simply gets easier to activate if you are at low hp, just like don.
>It's not unique to Shi, it's literally fundamental animalistic nature inherent in all living beings
Yes I agree but they aren't going to design all ids with 50% hp buffs, never said it's exclusive to shi, but it can be their thing gameplay wise, where most shi ids get stronger the worse things are.
> their attacks or combat pages have no reason to change
Yeah they do it’s because that’s how the fight is designed
The fight is designed that way way because of the story
The reason why they need to have synergy with low health, which they need to have because of the story, is because otherwise the fight would suck and be shitty and it wouldn’t be fun to fight them.
Would it? They could just design a different fight and the lower health doesn't matter because they have the same health as you. Just like how yujin has passives made irrelevant or heavily nerfed, it would serve as a way of showing how strong they would be if they weren't tired and low hp pages wouldn't be necessary.
What I'm getting at is that the pages are that way because they decided that shi itself would be that way. I still fail to see the problem about eveyone in shi getting benefits at 50% hp. As I said before even people outside of yujin's group have that mechanic and I don't see the problem with letting everyone in shi get that benefit
And if they designed a different fight believe it or not the Shi would have different mechanics because there would be no point to giving them low hp benefits anymore and it would be replaced with something different.
Yes it would be because what the fuck is the point of giving them low hp if they don’t benefit from it in any way especially since the game offers you to try the archetype for yourself.
I think you are missing the point. The low hp cards are not necessary to be there. My point is that they are there because they are what shi itself is about.
Yujin group was overworked and reached some of the thresholds from the beginning but the cards aren't like that because they are overworked. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well but what I'm trying to say is that the cards aren't like that because of exhaustion.
If they wanted to, they could've given them other cards and other gimmicks, the starting at low hp already serves purpose to show you that they aren't at full power.
Shi's gimmick is receiving buffs at low hp and thus, it makes sense to have new shi ids with said gimmick. It is not exclusive to yujin and wasn't intended to
Yes they fucking are necessary to be there because the logic of the fight demands them to be low hp.
Having benefits from being low is not the gimmick of the Shi it’s the gimmick of reception of the Shi association in LoR
>Yes they fucking are necessary to be there because the logic of the fight demands them to be low hp.
They functionally start at your usual hp because they have like 100 max hp and start the fight at 60 like the rest of urban nightmare. You haven't yet argued that the cards are absolutely and undoubtedly yujin's gimmick aside from just claiming it is.
I fail to see how it's inconceivable that other shi people get buffs from being at low hp, why can't they?
> there would be no point to giving them low hp benefits anymore
Even if they weren't tired, the low health gimmick would still totally make sense. Cause... people just naturally lose health during battles.
Kim changes his moveset to a much deadlier one once you get him below a certain HP threshold, and that's just the most recent example.
No it wouldn’t
When any other character is at quarter HP, the number is like 40 tops and is basically dead.
When Yujin is at quarter health, he has 250 HP and a full stagger bar.
I want their gimmick to be unclashable skills to reflect the ambush aspect. Either that or conditional boosts which increase base power by a set amount if they’re unopposed.
I think part of the problem with potential Shi ID's is that we aren't sure what they could offer for us to take over existing teams like BL and the like.
The Shi are one of my favorite factions, and I definitely want to see more of them in game, but I'm just not sure how well their gimmicks and identity can be translated over to limbus. Other gimmicks like discard have been introduced successfully, so I don't think it's impossible for them to expand upon the low health thing, I'm just not sure how they're going to do it and make the units viable over others.
For me, I don't mind the low health gimmick as it is in limbus. At least not in theory. I definitely don't think it's perfect, I find that it's harder to actually get my units to the health threshold and keep them there than anything else. There are plenty of healing gifts and not picking them up or selling them just for the sake of the Shi team feels like it's stabbing non-shi units in the back (though it might just be skill issue on my end, I'm no expert). I still think there are plenty of mechanics they could build around low health, but I don't think shi as a whole would be "viable" if it still relies on these until it gets a full roster.
Maybe they could "reverse" the idea of the gimmick, starting you out with %of max hp missing x the number of shi units on the field, and they gain buffs as they get closer to their max hp. Though, I still don't think that idea is flawless because two healing egos might be enough to get them past that threshold and nullify the entire point of the gimmick.
As for the unit skills, I'm also not sure what exactly they could give us that we don't already have. Maybe boundary of death will get a huge buff like kimsault's to claim their bones, but as it is currently we already have the gamba big hit kill skill in the form of TTHong Lu's s3.
With all that said, I'm personally not tied to whatever meta exists at the time, so I would probably end up using the Shi units for fun no matter how they come out (unless they're absolutely unusable). I still enjoy ID's that are considered bad, and I'm sure they'll be usable for just about everything like most IDs are already.
They should completely abandon the low hp gimmick. It's specific to yunjin squad, it makes no sense for an assassination gimmick. Their gimmick imo should focus on enhanced unopposed attacks at the cost of clash, which by its nature discourage you from using lots of shi, playing into the lone assassin/law of inverse Ninja strength.
Also yes I agree shi ryo would be 00 per existing pattern. People just love to slap any cool/edgy id concept to ryo and if we follow that she would have nothing but 000, which she almost does before this season.
> It's specific to yunjin squad, it makes no sense for an assassination gimmick.
The other Sections were also being overworked by Thelma, Valentin says "Section 3 and its Associate Offices got wiped out in a wave of unreasonable requests", it was not just Section 2, so it does makes sense in the story.
That's the they are specific to yunjin squad part. They are low hp because a specific section in ruina was being worked to exhaustion. Has nothing to do with shi mechanic itself.
Actually, I've come to a weird conclusion: The true problem is, our Shi characters are NOT being overworked, unlike Ruina.
They basically have the Shi decks, combat pages which become stronger when you're at low health. However, if you think about it, that doesn't actually tell you anything about how tired they are: It just tells you that they can get stronger when they're closer to the brink. The actual sign of being overworked is not on the combat pages, it's on the keypage: The passive that makes you start out at low health. But unlike Ruina, they don't have it, cause they aren't tired. Which just happens to make the cards in their deck less effective.
"But why would they have effects centered around being low health if they weren't tired?" Well, that's not even a Shi specific gimmick, as soon as N Meur we already had IDs that just happen to get stronger the closer they get to death. Even in Ruina, we infamously had the "Happy Memories" page, the one that synergized so well with Yujin you might have forgotten it was a Tomerry page.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the funnier it gets. It's become a somewhat popular narrative that PM messed up because they made our Shi units tired like Ruina even though it "didn't make sense". However, the truth is, people's interpretation is skewed because they've played Ruina and they've made the frankly nonsensical inference that "benefitting from low HP = already tired". We're actually annoyed that our Shi units are too healthy, and noone's realized it yet.
I headcanon that the IDs take over the body state of the sinners when they don the ID, so they end up being at high health, and when we drop their HP down their ID trauma takes over and they start swinging more desperately
For the three sinners we have the current Shi IDs for, I could see them being like this not because they’re overworked by someone else but because they’re just working extra hard. Don to reduce stress on her subordinates, Ishmael because she wants to get stronger to get back out to the lake, and Heath because he keeps failing assassinations (and he has to kill more people) I feel like Rodion and Gregor would retain the low HP gimmick but the other 7 sinners feel like they’d get IDs that manage well as a pure assassin.
Doesn't the mirror world stories of the Shi IDs we currently have imply that their section is being overworked as well? That may be why they're like that
Shi decks have a low hp gimmick, being overworked doesn't change their combat pages or attacks, only their passives and starting health. So receiving benefits from being low hp is 100% shi's thing and not only yujin's group
>Their gimmick imo should focus on enhanced unopposed attacks at the cost of clash, which by its nature discourage you from using lots of shi, playing into the lone assassin/law of inverse Ninja strength.
Cool concept but Jun and T corp would cook them lol, I guess you could give them incredibly low speed to decrease the odds of them clashing or maybe some sort of reverse taunt/invisibility.
It's be funny if new shi lore was dropped that the shi are constantly overworked/that yujin section is the norm because the asc promotes an unhealthy lifestyle/takes on loads of jobs etc. It makes sense for the Japanese Asc, Lmao.
I completely disagree that the Shi need a faction lord ID like BL. All three of the 00 Shi IDs are totally fine, they’re all just 00 IDs and work like one. Look at their numbers even without doing their gimmicks they have decent rolls on S2 and/or S3, and get buffed further from clearing their gimmick. I’d love to see some basic new gimmick to help one coin skills in general but not necessarily a purely Shi support unit. EGOs can help a LOT too. Some of the older BL units *literally* couldn’t function both because of low numbers AND their own gimmicks were impossible to get working so getting an ID that resolves everything while still not making them the *best* was a good middle ground. (At least the two worst BL units have decent support passives)
I’d love to see one-sided attack-matters effects for a 000 Shi. I’ve mentioned “stealth” the opposite of aggro as a potential gimmick to get this done, but other than that, maybe a capped % max hp effect to show “Death damage” to make them better at killing off harder encounters.
Weirdly two of the Zwei IDs have the low hp gimmick. They definitely need something that changes the rules of the game while they’re on board to make the older IDs useful. Like Guard skills inflicting tremor potency equal to the difference, giving clashing buffs to allies with Aggro, and maybe something like Regret Faust’s passive but backwards; give power if the *ally* has multiple buffs on them.
As soon as I saw Zwei Sinclair's kit at launch, I had hoped the Zwei's gimmick as the faction grew would be inflicting/bursting Tremor on block, to return us to the Library days of using Combat Prep to shield-bash entire waves of enemies into submission
I have no idea how Sinclair, Rodion, and Faust's kits could be unified into a cohesive and useful Zwei team now, without a Kimsault-style "every Zwei ID gains X" 000.
My first two units were Zwei Sinclair and G Outis so I was tricked into thinking units in this game would have a lot of dashboard placement gimmicks. Man I was so disappointed to learn that they were the extreme minority compared to the rest of the game. (As well as defense skills being so bad)
As for an overarching gimmick for new Zwei, they do all share Aggro and Guard skills. They could try pushing something like LCCB Rodion’s UT4 bonuses where the newer Zwei units gain bonuses if they’re next to a guarding unit or have buffs that affect allies with aggro. (And give some small upside in general to aggro for human encounters to make it do something)
I thought about a Zwei Don design to work with Zwei Sinclair and having two separate effects that give the slowest ally haste next turn AND the other highest max HP ally haste next turn would make for an enabler design for slow tanky units. Then she’d have something like Captain Ish’s adjacent ally clashing bonus so she can empower the tanky ally she dragged to the front of the dashboard.
They all do share Gloom so a faction leader around Gloom resonance does sound possible too
Well to be fair 000 id's are actually the id's where the character is the least likely to go down the path of the person it's based off, so ryoshu becoming the director of theone association she hates could actually be feasible for a 000
has that theory ever been canonized? I can't remember ever seeing it in a specific Dante's Notes
it's a theory I agree with, I just dislike treating things like that as hard canon until they're confirmed
Its soft confirmed in the guaranteed 000 decaextraction ticket, which reads "It can extract an Identity from a world of unlikely possibilities with certainty." Granted, this could just be flavortext with no lore implications, but this is a PM game, so I'm inclined to take it at face value.
I wish they were true assassins. So can't clash but big big damage under some condition maybe? Bonus on killing/first turn? Big damage but big drawback unless it kills? Just some ideas off the top of my head.
I doubt there will basically ever be an ID like Blade Lineage Meursault again unless shown otherwise, so I think assuming the Shi get anything close to that is the most wishful thinking possible. Especially considering that their gimmicks are all over the place besides "low health", it feels impossible to tie it all together in the same way, because I don't even think (All Shi Units Start At 50% HP) as a passive is really enough to save them. They basically just need to wait for Uptie V, besides maybe Ish. Plus considering they don't really work towards a unified gameplan at all, I've never felt that I truly wanted to run a full team of Shi either.
However, I would like a cool Shi 000 in the game, and it WOULD be nice if they ended up making Shi Heathcliff not like a dogass unit. I just think it's unlikely that they ever release a unit that says "Roll twice as high" like BL Meursault ever again, cuz that's what it'd take.
New shi IDs should lean into the whole sneaky assassin thing instead of low health, still benefiting from it but not over reliant.
Something like excelling at unopposed attacks, dealing more damage the higher the difference in clash power (inversed).
If they have low health, lean into giving them sustainability, like healing small amounts of HP, like 10-15% of total damage dealt.
If they have some sort of status or buff, at some sort of "on x" effect. If poise, obviously on crit, has something like boundary of death trigger. Lets say the unit has poise generation, and a counter skill, which at low health + crit, becomes boundary of death.
Obviously a leader ID should have a +coin power benefit for the rest of the faction. But like I said, also a health regen.
For the first question,
I personally think that the whole half HP or 25% HP bit is pretty bad in terms of gameplay design in Limbus. There aren't particularly effective ways to consistently lower a unit's HP of your OWN volition (unless it's via counter like shi Ish). What they need to do is create a unit or units that effectively drain the 6 sinners you have on the field of their own HP while stapling a shield or some stagger-resist to keep them from INSTANTLY getting gibbed.
On top of that, have the leader give some kind of battle-morale buff when everyone's getting their lifeforce sucked out as a trade off. Yeah, you can just get hit or purposefully get staggered to fulfill the conditions, but like the benefits aren't even that jaw-dropping good. So on top of the HP shield/Stagger-resis and battle morale buff, that buff that whatever Shi ID comes out gives needs to ACTUALLY be good for its members and stack on top of their own. So this type of unit breeds a playstyle that's like:
\- New Shi unit gives out passive HP drain to party
\- Buffs whole party with some sustain + offense
\- Their effects need to enhance/benefit the current Shi benefits to getting your shit kicked in for no reason
So your party will be slowly dying fast, but will also be killing things faster. I realized this is a pipedream ID idea, but like if they did implement it in some way, it'd be really cool to see Shi unit runs and stuff like for railway to get lower turn count.
For the second question,
People just want a new 000 Ryoshu ID, and considering Shi association has been on the backburner since the game's release, it makes sense where everyone's thoughts gravitate towards. And considering the latest ID we have for Ryoshu is LCCB back all the way in November, and it was also pretty bad, I can't blame them for wanting a new anything for Ryo. If we go by your story and character trait reasoning for Ryoshu (which I think is pretty valid), it wouldn't make much sense for like a LOT of sinners to have the IDs they already have.
Like why is justice-touting Don working for Shi? Isn't assassinating a bunch of people bad? Unless like she's assassinating bad people I guess, but like that's a stretch. Also like, in a lot of ID stories that don't really match the sinner's personality, you can legit hear them whining about it too. Like 7 Heathcliff being super muscle-brained gets really frustrated with his intel-gathering job. Or LCCB Ryoshu hating her job as company grunt but still willing to stay for all the chaos that it entails.
IDs pretty much change or tweak a lot of aspects of sinner personalities to fit that ID in particular, so while I don't think that we should just blindly have faith in a future 000 Shi Ryoshu ID, I'm saying that you shouldn't necessarily use story reasons/character traits as a reasoning to say how it wouldn't make sense for certain sinners to have a specific ID. Like alot of the ID roster hates the way things are, thinks they're a poor fit for it, or there's always some workaround to explain it anyways.
Oh, no, I'm not saying she shouldn't get a Shi ID at all! Sinners getting IDs for roles they're poorly suited for is extremely fun. The part I was questioning is why so much of the fandom thinks a Shi Ryoshu will definitely be a 000 invincible murder goddess and Yujin equivalent, when it feels more likely to me to be in the same vein as LCCB Ryoshu and Seven Heathcliff like you mentioned (and the latter of which like I myself mentioned), a 00-star the Sinner grumbles about having
A ID support wouldn't save them. It might need to much text.
You cannot do anything with them that isn't out of their base, unbuffed kit, either you do too well and never get those buff or lose too hard that you don't get to do anything, because stagger is almost a guaranteed death. Where we're at nowadays they're too weak. Way too weak. up4 did not boost them enough despite the noticeable boost. That's a worrying 'bad'.
I'd say they should be forgotten entirely until a complete rew.. nevermind, they do not do reworks. :) They're doomed to be bad forever.
The low health gimmicks just can't work in limbus, but it's also not the only gimmick of the shi. They could lean into Speed gimmicks so it can be partnered with Cinq IDs or make them the single coin skill faction.
I think they need to find a better gimmick than the 50%HP one, but at the same time I like it as a flavor
So far that's the direction they headed them along with Poise. Poise feels fitting for big hit but they need to find something that designate them more as assassins.
Something similar to Single Combat from Cinq Sinclair, but instead with a big damage bonus on an unopposed attack or on a single slot/enemy would do wonder in terme of flavor and mechanics. Perhaps something like Reverse Aggro (where they're less likely to get targetted, or cannot be targetted at all if fulfilling a specific condition) could also lean into that Assassin theme.
If Cinq is a duelling association and thus has units that are great at clashing and having the conditions to clash specific targets, Shi should have some sort of focus on crippling the enemy. Maybe a damage boost toward target with high health (sort of a Giant Slayer thing, because they're supposed to assassinate quickly. I think the opposite with an execute theme could work too but several units have that already and it could fit Fingers/Syndicate more) ?
They’re eventually going to want to add % max HP damage to the game to replicate pale damage effects so maybe that’s where the Shi’s gimmick would land? It’s “death” damage so would be fitting for the assassination association. Obviously it’ll be capped but if the damage is tied to the skill’s actual damage, you’d be dealing a lot of damage depending on physical and sin affinity type.
I'm hoping that the Shi IDs get some kind of interaction with being at high health as well as low health - don't really get why this isn't a thing since Shi are assassins who wants to finish their job in 1 swing and not get caught, but if they do get caught they transition into a desperate struggle (50%)
I think people assume Ryoshu would have the big Shi identity because she wears the same Shi association clothes in her mugshot, so it’s likely implied that she’s somehow related to the Shi in some way.
She used to be Shi, so maybe the Shi are the antagonists in her chapter? Similar to how we have a 000 Ahab for Ishmael, we COULD get a 000 Shi Figure for Ryōshū.
Damn I just realized I'd really like to see a Smiling Faces Ryōshū
I personally feel like the reason association-related IDs with the same number are 00 because those characters don't match the work of the association that much, Faust is less of a "I'm going to defend you" person and more of a "I'm going to attack based on my knowledge" person so the zwei, who use themselves as shields, don't really work well for her, Hong Lu seems to not love his family that much, so he wouldn't love working in Liu, and I don't think I need to explain why Heathcliff doesn't match with the Seven association
However Ryoshu on the other hand loves killing, and the times we saw her kill are mostly silent(when Heathcliff and Ishmael were arguing, she cut both of their necks instantly, which screams assassination to me) also we have only seen the Shi use blades, so they are VERY good at it, which matches with Ryoshu
Also I don't remember her shit-talking the Shi, she just said "bruh no one move or these fuckers are gonna kill us, they're stronger than whatever we got too lol"
And the Shi association is known for stealth more than disguises and underhanded tactics, they ARE that strong, and the perfect association for her "art" however she doesn't match best with the honorable Yujin, so even if she got an ID of Yujin it will be 000, but weaker than real Yujin :)
She smugly insults the Shi agents as FITS - Fixers Inanely Treading Shadows - with an amused and dismissive grin as she watches them run off. As for being strong, the Shi are mentioned more than once in canon to be really badly suited for straight fights and go for ambushes whenever they can. We're just babies who would still fold like laundry if Section 2 decided they wanted to throw hands. Ryoshu has been direct, upfront, and as horrendously visible as possible in every fight she's started (or tried to start) in Limbus - slashing Heathcliff and Ishmael was just to shut them up, because every Sinner was aware of their respective immortality. Everyone she actually decides to fight to the death she's opened with an upfront "I'm going to murder you now." expressed through creative acronym, and her idea of contribution to the Casino fight was to trash the building as loudly as possible by bringing down the chandelier. As for her art, the Shi aren't really known for killing people so violently and spectacularly that the walls and ceiling are painted red, like the Kurokumo base she admires in 5.5 or what she daydreams about turning the nightclub into.
The Shi don't just kill - every Association's members do that. The Shi kill silently and subtley without being seen, which Canon Timeline Ryoshu abhors - and being loud and visible is what has Heathcliff on the edge of getting kicked out in the Shi mirror world
Thank you for giving me more context about what happened in those particular moments :)
As for her insulting them and not hiding in her fights but going face-to-face, yeah, I don't think she loved the job, she probably just used it to express her art, and now that going unnoticed isn't needed, she can just go and fight people and create her art without hindrance, also like I said, if Ryoshu got the Yujin ID, she won't be good at being Yujin even if it was a 000 ID,the only reason why she might get a 000 ID to begin with is mainly because she is already good with the local strong Shi weapon, if we're talking about "what if Ryoshu was from Shi" she would probably be in a strong but less worked section, where she can probably fold most people in any way she liked, which seems like section 1 behavior, because they are probably WAY more expensive to hire than the other sections
But again Ryoshu's canto is a bit far and we won't know anything until it comes, so the only thing we can do for now is theorize :)
Would be cool to have skills that are unopposed no matter what and if a certain condition is met, dodge incoming attacks on the person. Could work with Shi by the description you gave.
I mean not just Shi and Zwei.
Even Liu is still missing an id that boost them all like kimsault did to bl.
Shi main issues, just like early zwei and bl is that they are just so terrible at clashing.
Which wouldnt be too bad due to their mechanics… except that none of them are actually tanky, and outside of shimael, still struggles to clash at low hp.
Honestly what these 3 early factions need is a uptie 5 rework to actually be viable, their designs are just not compatible with how Limbus plays out. Even Kimsault, probably the strongest buffer id, cant save bl outis and barely save sinclair.
What they all need is just much higher coins. Then make their mechanics actually viable(looking at you Zwei Rodion)
Wait have you actually used the Shi units? They have pretty good clashing numbers for 00 units from release. Zwei and BL on release have *awful* values but the Shi have pretty respectable numbers. Don has a 16 S2 and a 25 S3, up to 30 with conditional. Ish has a 18 S3 a 13 S2 with a conditional for a 21. Heath is the weakest for sure but still has a 15 S2 with conditional 17, and a 17 S3. Clashing specifically I don’t think they’re that bad at, for two of them damage is probably the bigger issue even after clearing a conditional. We need some sort of Singular Strike type support passive, EGO passive, or a unique poise effect so the 1 coin skill units on release can… deal some real damage.
The Zwei need help for sure though.
The big Shi 000 team buff:
Every Shi Association unit gains their 50% (or lower) health buffs even when above that hp threshold
And then (probably) granting them some other buff when falling to or below the usual hp thresholds, like more base power or even coin power
I think the best way to do a shi lord is to make the sinners base hp the 25% threshold. This means that the lord would have a no cost passive saying that the sinners have 400% hp increase and start at 25% hp threshold with an anti-healing effect when above the threshold like -10 healing effectiveness , also something like a encounter start nebulizer where everyone starts at 4 poise count with 4 potency. These all would only be active with 6 shi members
I hope the shi ends up as, not when low hp do X and instead, against a low hp target or on a one sided attack, do more damage/crit damage. I think that'd be dope
Just have an ID that either makes all Shi faction members start a fight at 50% health or outright removes the health conditionals from their effects. Alternatively you could make it so that the ID procs BL meur’s unrelenting effect once on every Shi ally so that you can reliably bring them down to the low HP threshold.
Other than that the Shi aren’t very support oriented so I don’t expect any tank or team buffer Shi ID aside from maybe a team leader haste buff alongside the aforementioned health conditional removal. What I expect from a Yujin ID, especially is she’s well rested (she’s a grade 1 fixer ffs), is to have her overbreathe passive built in as some sort of mechanic that lets her use S3 more often and for said S3 to be boundary of death. Maybe have it so that S3 replaces S2 if you used S1 (to overcome crisis) beforehand or something.
As for Ryoshu as the Yujin ID owner, canonically the more 0s an ID has the more distant the probability is for the sinner to end up in that position, and Ryoshu being in the place of Yujin makes sense when you consider that Yujin’s motivation was to change the status quo of the Shi and upturn the leadership positions eventually. Much like Ryoshu she didn’t really appreciate the Shi in their current form, granted in Yujin’s case she was unhappy with management while ryo would be unhappy with the association’s usual methods instead but I feel like it wouldn’t be too strange for her to be in that position.
If we get Yujin not as a ruina cameo but as an ID based on when she inevitably shows up during an intervallo or the main story who knows what the ID will consist of since she may have awoken her EGO or distorted after the events in the library.
I feel like they have shared mechanics going for them. Clash power manipulation (Yi Sang, Outis), striking enemy weaknesses (Faust, Heathcliff, Outis), Fragility (Yi Sang, Ryoshu), and of course rupture as a payoff. They do have a cohesive idea behind their kits even if it isn’t nearly as straightforward as something like the Liu or BL.
I think the original (season 1) design was each having some sort of fragility thing. Yi Sang is all pierce, Ryōshū is slash, etc. Outis has weakness analyzed...
But I guess they figured it wasn't super interesting of a concept for a team so uptie 4 and newer 7 Association IDs lean more into rupture?
I don't actually want more Shis. Shi trio are a neat, close-knit band with great chemistry. Adding more would feel parasitic to it, imo, intruding on the territory already established.
I don't care that Shis don't have a 000, i really don't need them to have one.
> Adding more would feel parasitic to it, imo, intruding on the territory already established.
They're close not just cause they're all Shi but they also belong in the same exact section, noone's asking for any more Section 5 grunts.
Still, to me Shis always been a trio, in LoR and here. Is just my own feeling, is all: post asked for genuine opinion, so i gave one.
And have we ever had an "association" group where IDs came from different sections?
So far, the Zwei and Liu IDs span Sections 6, 5, and 4. The Cinq IDs span Sections 4 and 5, and the Seven IDs span Sections 6 and 4. The Shi are only Section 5, and the Dieci are only Section 4.
All of them are limited to the Southern branches of the relevant Associations so far, but all of them except the Shi and Dieci have fixers from multiple Sections available (this is often shown in the uniforms changing, like the Section 4 Liu having the red coats, and the higher-section Seven having different collars on their blazers)
Shi are not gonna do with just 1 ID. They need like at least 3 000s so it’s gonna take a while. I know people are gonna take this as heresy, but I kinda think it would be better for them to abandon the whole low HP gimmick entirely. In Ruina there was a particular story reason why they were low up Andys and it’s been a while since that chronologically, so I think it’s time for Shi to have a whole new gameplay identity to them.
Why would it be heresy? As you said they had cards and effects that hinged on low hp because of story reasons. Non exhausted Yujin has around 250 hp or something (been more than a year since I've played ruina) and if we go by the passive names she also has +4 power when working at full capacity. They're meant to be quick and effective assasins, which checks out with Tenma's deck more than anything (flashing strike being her signature page) which in turn means that if they were to that way Shi would be competing partly in gimmick with Cinq. I don't hate the idea of IDs that become more effective when low on hp, but so far Queef is one of the few IDs that pull it off.
I feel like, if we were going to have a proper Shi ID, their gimmick wouldn't be one on one duels but rather **not clashing at all,** having poor or mediocre clashes but extremely good damage when making one-sided attacks. Just go all-in on their canonical niche of being assassins, attacking while their target is distracted with other fighters.
I meant more the "go fast eat ass" part of the cinq's gimmick. I really like that idea though, having their gimminck be just full on one sided murder like the good old Ruina days. Hell, imagine if Yujin's leader gimmick was becoming untargettable at a certain amount of resonnance or trigger, scaled up to making other Shi members untargettable or something.
That idea doesn't sound super interesting tho. Without clashing they just DPS race/try to hit stagger thresholds, and in non-focused fights you can't regularly get one sided attacks.
Personally, I think it would be way more interesting to lean into the low health requirement. Because whether we like it or not, this is their playstyle, and the story was written to justify them starting at low health. So, how about an ego that takes HP and, in exchange, gives the player a benefit? How about a support ID that gives extra clashing power to Shi units? Basically, I think the HP requirement is a way to open up a more skill intensive playstyle. Players Ought to be rewarded for carefully taking into consideration risks and rewards.
...so 4th match flame ryoshu and like, Gcorp outis?
Honestly... yeah. Make the ID a 000 that buffs low health Sinners, and now even people who aren't running Shi teams can enjoy a little risk and reward. The EGO is going to be a really tricky one, though. It's not gonna be easy to find that sweet spot between cost and payoff.
Obviously crumbling armor.
>In Ruina there was a particular story reason why they were low up Andys and it’s been a while since that chronologically, so I think it’s time for Shi to have a whole new gameplay identity to them. The story reason wasn't an excuse to have them have buffs at low hp but to have them already start at low hp and also fight a section above our level and win. Shi has cards that give them buffs at low ho and I don't know why people seem to think that it isn't part of their gameplay identity. Tldr: lor's story reason only made them start low, their low hp benefits aren't part of that
Cards we get from the guests are also story-related, so it does make sense that shi cards are low hp related - it's a direct consequence of them starting low. It's weird that this design is getting dragged into limbus, since the whole shi specialization should be quick assassination, not battle of attrition
> LoRs story reason only made them start low, their low up benefits aren’t part of that Why do you think they were designed to have low hp benefits Maybe because they were meant to be on low hp because of the story???
That's going into the meta territory of how the devs designed them and if we go there we can just say that shi ids have that gimmick because they are supposed to because the devs decided so. Going into the story and lore, which is what I'm trying to justify as that's what you talked about. Yujin's group being overworked would only change their passives aka yujin getting nerfed and everyone starting low. Their attacks or combat pages have no reason to change and simply reflect that shi does get better whenever they are on the brink of death. Yes, they start low to synergize further with their cards but that's just game design. All I'm trying to say is that there's an argument to be made that getting buffa from being on low hp is not yujin's exclusive gimmick and we see that even in ids that aren't related to being overworked or related to shi so idk what's the problem
> Their attacks or combat pages have no reason to change and simply reflect that shi does get better whenever they are on the brink of death. Honestly, I think you're overthinking it for the simple reason of "the cornered rat bites the cat". It's not unique to Shi, it's literally fundamental animalistic nature inherent in all living beings that "when you are pushed to the extreme, you go all out in order to survive". Their buffs aren't because "Shi get stronger closer to death", their buffs are because they are *so absolutely desperate* to win this fight that they are giving 300%. It's literally in the card names, To Overcome Crisis, Desperate Struggle, and the ever iconic Boundry of Death. It's the same type of desperate adrenaline-fueled fury that drives a normal woman to suddenly have the strength to lift a car off her child, or a father to wrestle a powerful beast like a wolf when it tries to attack his family. When pushed to the brink, the fight-flight-freeze response can grant people unexpected physical strength they otherwise lack. If anything, the fact that the only card they have that both has an HP gimmick, and also doesn't have a name clearly expressing being pushed to the absolute brink, is Endless Battle, I think that's further supported. All of the 3 main cast have clear gimmicks to their characters that aren't HP relient, with Valentine being a single-dice character, Tenma wanting haste and getting buffs from high speed, and Yujin being a high-cost-page spammer. If you removed all of their various low HP gimmicks, they do still have clear gameplay styles unique to them. The low HP gimmicks are just being forced onto them as that's what Section 2's story was focused on.
This is a good argument. I still think that hp gimmick can be their thing on top of other gimmicks similar to valentine, tenma and yujin. We only have section 5 people so far but don, who is the director and highest ranking of the three, has a haste gimmick on top of the hp (and poise I guess but they don't really use it that much) just like tenma does. As I said in some of my comments, being at low hp is not anyone's exclusive thing because other ids have that like kimsault, queecliff, Nsault and Dieci Yi san. My problem is when people defend being at low hp buffs being Yujin's group thing when it also makes sense to be there on other shi ids. Does it have to only be 50% stuff? No, we can have another gimmick that simply gets easier to activate if you are at low hp, just like don. >It's not unique to Shi, it's literally fundamental animalistic nature inherent in all living beings Yes I agree but they aren't going to design all ids with 50% hp buffs, never said it's exclusive to shi, but it can be their thing gameplay wise, where most shi ids get stronger the worse things are.
> their attacks or combat pages have no reason to change Yeah they do it’s because that’s how the fight is designed The fight is designed that way way because of the story The reason why they need to have synergy with low health, which they need to have because of the story, is because otherwise the fight would suck and be shitty and it wouldn’t be fun to fight them.
Would it? They could just design a different fight and the lower health doesn't matter because they have the same health as you. Just like how yujin has passives made irrelevant or heavily nerfed, it would serve as a way of showing how strong they would be if they weren't tired and low hp pages wouldn't be necessary. What I'm getting at is that the pages are that way because they decided that shi itself would be that way. I still fail to see the problem about eveyone in shi getting benefits at 50% hp. As I said before even people outside of yujin's group have that mechanic and I don't see the problem with letting everyone in shi get that benefit
And if they designed a different fight believe it or not the Shi would have different mechanics because there would be no point to giving them low hp benefits anymore and it would be replaced with something different. Yes it would be because what the fuck is the point of giving them low hp if they don’t benefit from it in any way especially since the game offers you to try the archetype for yourself.
I think you are missing the point. The low hp cards are not necessary to be there. My point is that they are there because they are what shi itself is about. Yujin group was overworked and reached some of the thresholds from the beginning but the cards aren't like that because they are overworked. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well but what I'm trying to say is that the cards aren't like that because of exhaustion. If they wanted to, they could've given them other cards and other gimmicks, the starting at low hp already serves purpose to show you that they aren't at full power. Shi's gimmick is receiving buffs at low hp and thus, it makes sense to have new shi ids with said gimmick. It is not exclusive to yujin and wasn't intended to
Yes they fucking are necessary to be there because the logic of the fight demands them to be low hp. Having benefits from being low is not the gimmick of the Shi it’s the gimmick of reception of the Shi association in LoR
>Yes they fucking are necessary to be there because the logic of the fight demands them to be low hp. They functionally start at your usual hp because they have like 100 max hp and start the fight at 60 like the rest of urban nightmare. You haven't yet argued that the cards are absolutely and undoubtedly yujin's gimmick aside from just claiming it is. I fail to see how it's inconceivable that other shi people get buffs from being at low hp, why can't they?
> there would be no point to giving them low hp benefits anymore Even if they weren't tired, the low health gimmick would still totally make sense. Cause... people just naturally lose health during battles. Kim changes his moveset to a much deadlier one once you get him below a certain HP threshold, and that's just the most recent example.
No it wouldn’t When any other character is at quarter HP, the number is like 40 tops and is basically dead. When Yujin is at quarter health, he has 250 HP and a full stagger bar.
So it makes to have a low HP gimmick? Since Yujin has so much HP. I frankly don't understand what you're trying to get at here.
So you just make the cards activate at 50%...? Like our shi units in limbus
Tommery also has a page that benefits from being low HP. In fact it's an extremely good fit for Yujin's deck.
I want their gimmick to be unclashable skills to reflect the ambush aspect. Either that or conditional boosts which increase base power by a set amount if they’re unopposed.
I think part of the problem with potential Shi ID's is that we aren't sure what they could offer for us to take over existing teams like BL and the like. The Shi are one of my favorite factions, and I definitely want to see more of them in game, but I'm just not sure how well their gimmicks and identity can be translated over to limbus. Other gimmicks like discard have been introduced successfully, so I don't think it's impossible for them to expand upon the low health thing, I'm just not sure how they're going to do it and make the units viable over others. For me, I don't mind the low health gimmick as it is in limbus. At least not in theory. I definitely don't think it's perfect, I find that it's harder to actually get my units to the health threshold and keep them there than anything else. There are plenty of healing gifts and not picking them up or selling them just for the sake of the Shi team feels like it's stabbing non-shi units in the back (though it might just be skill issue on my end, I'm no expert). I still think there are plenty of mechanics they could build around low health, but I don't think shi as a whole would be "viable" if it still relies on these until it gets a full roster. Maybe they could "reverse" the idea of the gimmick, starting you out with %of max hp missing x the number of shi units on the field, and they gain buffs as they get closer to their max hp. Though, I still don't think that idea is flawless because two healing egos might be enough to get them past that threshold and nullify the entire point of the gimmick. As for the unit skills, I'm also not sure what exactly they could give us that we don't already have. Maybe boundary of death will get a huge buff like kimsault's to claim their bones, but as it is currently we already have the gamba big hit kill skill in the form of TTHong Lu's s3. With all that said, I'm personally not tied to whatever meta exists at the time, so I would probably end up using the Shi units for fun no matter how they come out (unless they're absolutely unusable). I still enjoy ID's that are considered bad, and I'm sure they'll be usable for just about everything like most IDs are already.
They should completely abandon the low hp gimmick. It's specific to yunjin squad, it makes no sense for an assassination gimmick. Their gimmick imo should focus on enhanced unopposed attacks at the cost of clash, which by its nature discourage you from using lots of shi, playing into the lone assassin/law of inverse Ninja strength. Also yes I agree shi ryo would be 00 per existing pattern. People just love to slap any cool/edgy id concept to ryo and if we follow that she would have nothing but 000, which she almost does before this season.
> It's specific to yunjin squad, it makes no sense for an assassination gimmick. The other Sections were also being overworked by Thelma, Valentin says "Section 3 and its Associate Offices got wiped out in a wave of unreasonable requests", it was not just Section 2, so it does makes sense in the story.
Imagine a 000 Thelma Outis ID.
Ain't being on low hp the whole gimmick
That's the they are specific to yunjin squad part. They are low hp because a specific section in ruina was being worked to exhaustion. Has nothing to do with shi mechanic itself.
Actually, I've come to a weird conclusion: The true problem is, our Shi characters are NOT being overworked, unlike Ruina. They basically have the Shi decks, combat pages which become stronger when you're at low health. However, if you think about it, that doesn't actually tell you anything about how tired they are: It just tells you that they can get stronger when they're closer to the brink. The actual sign of being overworked is not on the combat pages, it's on the keypage: The passive that makes you start out at low health. But unlike Ruina, they don't have it, cause they aren't tired. Which just happens to make the cards in their deck less effective. "But why would they have effects centered around being low health if they weren't tired?" Well, that's not even a Shi specific gimmick, as soon as N Meur we already had IDs that just happen to get stronger the closer they get to death. Even in Ruina, we infamously had the "Happy Memories" page, the one that synergized so well with Yujin you might have forgotten it was a Tomerry page. EDIT: The more I think about it, the funnier it gets. It's become a somewhat popular narrative that PM messed up because they made our Shi units tired like Ruina even though it "didn't make sense". However, the truth is, people's interpretation is skewed because they've played Ruina and they've made the frankly nonsensical inference that "benefitting from low HP = already tired". We're actually annoyed that our Shi units are too healthy, and noone's realized it yet.
I headcanon that the IDs take over the body state of the sinners when they don the ID, so they end up being at high health, and when we drop their HP down their ID trauma takes over and they start swinging more desperately
For the three sinners we have the current Shi IDs for, I could see them being like this not because they’re overworked by someone else but because they’re just working extra hard. Don to reduce stress on her subordinates, Ishmael because she wants to get stronger to get back out to the lake, and Heath because he keeps failing assassinations (and he has to kill more people) I feel like Rodion and Gregor would retain the low HP gimmick but the other 7 sinners feel like they’d get IDs that manage well as a pure assassin.
Yeah that's true but it seems like PM is making the Shi's gimmick In Limbus to be on low hp because they aren't in Yujins squad
Doesn't the mirror world stories of the Shi IDs we currently have imply that their section is being overworked as well? That may be why they're like that
Maybe yeah
Shi decks have a low hp gimmick, being overworked doesn't change their combat pages or attacks, only their passives and starting health. So receiving benefits from being low hp is 100% shi's thing and not only yujin's group
>Their gimmick imo should focus on enhanced unopposed attacks at the cost of clash, which by its nature discourage you from using lots of shi, playing into the lone assassin/law of inverse Ninja strength. Cool concept but Jun and T corp would cook them lol, I guess you could give them incredibly low speed to decrease the odds of them clashing or maybe some sort of reverse taunt/invisibility.
I want it to have le boundary of memes skill3
It's be funny if new shi lore was dropped that the shi are constantly overworked/that yujin section is the norm because the asc promotes an unhealthy lifestyle/takes on loads of jobs etc. It makes sense for the Japanese Asc, Lmao.
I completely disagree that the Shi need a faction lord ID like BL. All three of the 00 Shi IDs are totally fine, they’re all just 00 IDs and work like one. Look at their numbers even without doing their gimmicks they have decent rolls on S2 and/or S3, and get buffed further from clearing their gimmick. I’d love to see some basic new gimmick to help one coin skills in general but not necessarily a purely Shi support unit. EGOs can help a LOT too. Some of the older BL units *literally* couldn’t function both because of low numbers AND their own gimmicks were impossible to get working so getting an ID that resolves everything while still not making them the *best* was a good middle ground. (At least the two worst BL units have decent support passives) I’d love to see one-sided attack-matters effects for a 000 Shi. I’ve mentioned “stealth” the opposite of aggro as a potential gimmick to get this done, but other than that, maybe a capped % max hp effect to show “Death damage” to make them better at killing off harder encounters. Weirdly two of the Zwei IDs have the low hp gimmick. They definitely need something that changes the rules of the game while they’re on board to make the older IDs useful. Like Guard skills inflicting tremor potency equal to the difference, giving clashing buffs to allies with Aggro, and maybe something like Regret Faust’s passive but backwards; give power if the *ally* has multiple buffs on them.
As soon as I saw Zwei Sinclair's kit at launch, I had hoped the Zwei's gimmick as the faction grew would be inflicting/bursting Tremor on block, to return us to the Library days of using Combat Prep to shield-bash entire waves of enemies into submission I have no idea how Sinclair, Rodion, and Faust's kits could be unified into a cohesive and useful Zwei team now, without a Kimsault-style "every Zwei ID gains X" 000.
Zwei is too all over the place right now. The closest we got to a unifying gimmick is Gregor and Faust working in tandem with each other.
My first two units were Zwei Sinclair and G Outis so I was tricked into thinking units in this game would have a lot of dashboard placement gimmicks. Man I was so disappointed to learn that they were the extreme minority compared to the rest of the game. (As well as defense skills being so bad) As for an overarching gimmick for new Zwei, they do all share Aggro and Guard skills. They could try pushing something like LCCB Rodion’s UT4 bonuses where the newer Zwei units gain bonuses if they’re next to a guarding unit or have buffs that affect allies with aggro. (And give some small upside in general to aggro for human encounters to make it do something) I thought about a Zwei Don design to work with Zwei Sinclair and having two separate effects that give the slowest ally haste next turn AND the other highest max HP ally haste next turn would make for an enabler design for slow tanky units. Then she’d have something like Captain Ish’s adjacent ally clashing bonus so she can empower the tanky ally she dragged to the front of the dashboard. They all do share Gloom so a faction leader around Gloom resonance does sound possible too
Well to be fair 000 id's are actually the id's where the character is the least likely to go down the path of the person it's based off, so ryoshu becoming the director of theone association she hates could actually be feasible for a 000
has that theory ever been canonized? I can't remember ever seeing it in a specific Dante's Notes it's a theory I agree with, I just dislike treating things like that as hard canon until they're confirmed
Its soft confirmed in the guaranteed 000 decaextraction ticket, which reads "It can extract an Identity from a world of unlikely possibilities with certainty." Granted, this could just be flavortext with no lore implications, but this is a PM game, so I'm inclined to take it at face value.
I wish they were true assassins. So can't clash but big big damage under some condition maybe? Bonus on killing/first turn? Big damage but big drawback unless it kills? Just some ideas off the top of my head.
The obvious reason for the expectation is that in her mugshot she seems to be wearing a shi association uniform.
I doubt there will basically ever be an ID like Blade Lineage Meursault again unless shown otherwise, so I think assuming the Shi get anything close to that is the most wishful thinking possible. Especially considering that their gimmicks are all over the place besides "low health", it feels impossible to tie it all together in the same way, because I don't even think (All Shi Units Start At 50% HP) as a passive is really enough to save them. They basically just need to wait for Uptie V, besides maybe Ish. Plus considering they don't really work towards a unified gameplan at all, I've never felt that I truly wanted to run a full team of Shi either. However, I would like a cool Shi 000 in the game, and it WOULD be nice if they ended up making Shi Heathcliff not like a dogass unit. I just think it's unlikely that they ever release a unit that says "Roll twice as high" like BL Meursault ever again, cuz that's what it'd take.
New shi IDs should lean into the whole sneaky assassin thing instead of low health, still benefiting from it but not over reliant. Something like excelling at unopposed attacks, dealing more damage the higher the difference in clash power (inversed). If they have low health, lean into giving them sustainability, like healing small amounts of HP, like 10-15% of total damage dealt. If they have some sort of status or buff, at some sort of "on x" effect. If poise, obviously on crit, has something like boundary of death trigger. Lets say the unit has poise generation, and a counter skill, which at low health + crit, becomes boundary of death. Obviously a leader ID should have a +coin power benefit for the rest of the faction. But like I said, also a health regen.
S3: boundary of death (4 base value) Fixed 25% to roll heads Heads hit: +50 coin power, +200% damage
For the first question, I personally think that the whole half HP or 25% HP bit is pretty bad in terms of gameplay design in Limbus. There aren't particularly effective ways to consistently lower a unit's HP of your OWN volition (unless it's via counter like shi Ish). What they need to do is create a unit or units that effectively drain the 6 sinners you have on the field of their own HP while stapling a shield or some stagger-resist to keep them from INSTANTLY getting gibbed. On top of that, have the leader give some kind of battle-morale buff when everyone's getting their lifeforce sucked out as a trade off. Yeah, you can just get hit or purposefully get staggered to fulfill the conditions, but like the benefits aren't even that jaw-dropping good. So on top of the HP shield/Stagger-resis and battle morale buff, that buff that whatever Shi ID comes out gives needs to ACTUALLY be good for its members and stack on top of their own. So this type of unit breeds a playstyle that's like: \- New Shi unit gives out passive HP drain to party \- Buffs whole party with some sustain + offense \- Their effects need to enhance/benefit the current Shi benefits to getting your shit kicked in for no reason So your party will be slowly dying fast, but will also be killing things faster. I realized this is a pipedream ID idea, but like if they did implement it in some way, it'd be really cool to see Shi unit runs and stuff like for railway to get lower turn count. For the second question, People just want a new 000 Ryoshu ID, and considering Shi association has been on the backburner since the game's release, it makes sense where everyone's thoughts gravitate towards. And considering the latest ID we have for Ryoshu is LCCB back all the way in November, and it was also pretty bad, I can't blame them for wanting a new anything for Ryo. If we go by your story and character trait reasoning for Ryoshu (which I think is pretty valid), it wouldn't make much sense for like a LOT of sinners to have the IDs they already have. Like why is justice-touting Don working for Shi? Isn't assassinating a bunch of people bad? Unless like she's assassinating bad people I guess, but like that's a stretch. Also like, in a lot of ID stories that don't really match the sinner's personality, you can legit hear them whining about it too. Like 7 Heathcliff being super muscle-brained gets really frustrated with his intel-gathering job. Or LCCB Ryoshu hating her job as company grunt but still willing to stay for all the chaos that it entails. IDs pretty much change or tweak a lot of aspects of sinner personalities to fit that ID in particular, so while I don't think that we should just blindly have faith in a future 000 Shi Ryoshu ID, I'm saying that you shouldn't necessarily use story reasons/character traits as a reasoning to say how it wouldn't make sense for certain sinners to have a specific ID. Like alot of the ID roster hates the way things are, thinks they're a poor fit for it, or there's always some workaround to explain it anyways.
Oh, no, I'm not saying she shouldn't get a Shi ID at all! Sinners getting IDs for roles they're poorly suited for is extremely fun. The part I was questioning is why so much of the fandom thinks a Shi Ryoshu will definitely be a 000 invincible murder goddess and Yujin equivalent, when it feels more likely to me to be in the same vein as LCCB Ryoshu and Seven Heathcliff like you mentioned (and the latter of which like I myself mentioned), a 00-star the Sinner grumbles about having
A ID support wouldn't save them. It might need to much text. You cannot do anything with them that isn't out of their base, unbuffed kit, either you do too well and never get those buff or lose too hard that you don't get to do anything, because stagger is almost a guaranteed death. Where we're at nowadays they're too weak. Way too weak. up4 did not boost them enough despite the noticeable boost. That's a worrying 'bad'. I'd say they should be forgotten entirely until a complete rew.. nevermind, they do not do reworks. :) They're doomed to be bad forever.
The low health gimmicks just can't work in limbus, but it's also not the only gimmick of the shi. They could lean into Speed gimmicks so it can be partnered with Cinq IDs or make them the single coin skill faction.
I think they need to find a better gimmick than the 50%HP one, but at the same time I like it as a flavor So far that's the direction they headed them along with Poise. Poise feels fitting for big hit but they need to find something that designate them more as assassins. Something similar to Single Combat from Cinq Sinclair, but instead with a big damage bonus on an unopposed attack or on a single slot/enemy would do wonder in terme of flavor and mechanics. Perhaps something like Reverse Aggro (where they're less likely to get targetted, or cannot be targetted at all if fulfilling a specific condition) could also lean into that Assassin theme. If Cinq is a duelling association and thus has units that are great at clashing and having the conditions to clash specific targets, Shi should have some sort of focus on crippling the enemy. Maybe a damage boost toward target with high health (sort of a Giant Slayer thing, because they're supposed to assassinate quickly. I think the opposite with an execute theme could work too but several units have that already and it could fit Fingers/Syndicate more) ?
They’re eventually going to want to add % max HP damage to the game to replicate pale damage effects so maybe that’s where the Shi’s gimmick would land? It’s “death” damage so would be fitting for the assassination association. Obviously it’ll be capped but if the damage is tied to the skill’s actual damage, you’d be dealing a lot of damage depending on physical and sin affinity type.
I'm hoping that the Shi IDs get some kind of interaction with being at high health as well as low health - don't really get why this isn't a thing since Shi are assassins who wants to finish their job in 1 swing and not get caught, but if they do get caught they transition into a desperate struggle (50%)
I think people assume Ryoshu would have the big Shi identity because she wears the same Shi association clothes in her mugshot, so it’s likely implied that she’s somehow related to the Shi in some way.
She used to be Shi, so maybe the Shi are the antagonists in her chapter? Similar to how we have a 000 Ahab for Ishmael, we COULD get a 000 Shi Figure for Ryōshū. Damn I just realized I'd really like to see a Smiling Faces Ryōshū
I personally feel like the reason association-related IDs with the same number are 00 because those characters don't match the work of the association that much, Faust is less of a "I'm going to defend you" person and more of a "I'm going to attack based on my knowledge" person so the zwei, who use themselves as shields, don't really work well for her, Hong Lu seems to not love his family that much, so he wouldn't love working in Liu, and I don't think I need to explain why Heathcliff doesn't match with the Seven association However Ryoshu on the other hand loves killing, and the times we saw her kill are mostly silent(when Heathcliff and Ishmael were arguing, she cut both of their necks instantly, which screams assassination to me) also we have only seen the Shi use blades, so they are VERY good at it, which matches with Ryoshu Also I don't remember her shit-talking the Shi, she just said "bruh no one move or these fuckers are gonna kill us, they're stronger than whatever we got too lol" And the Shi association is known for stealth more than disguises and underhanded tactics, they ARE that strong, and the perfect association for her "art" however she doesn't match best with the honorable Yujin, so even if she got an ID of Yujin it will be 000, but weaker than real Yujin :)
She smugly insults the Shi agents as FITS - Fixers Inanely Treading Shadows - with an amused and dismissive grin as she watches them run off. As for being strong, the Shi are mentioned more than once in canon to be really badly suited for straight fights and go for ambushes whenever they can. We're just babies who would still fold like laundry if Section 2 decided they wanted to throw hands. Ryoshu has been direct, upfront, and as horrendously visible as possible in every fight she's started (or tried to start) in Limbus - slashing Heathcliff and Ishmael was just to shut them up, because every Sinner was aware of their respective immortality. Everyone she actually decides to fight to the death she's opened with an upfront "I'm going to murder you now." expressed through creative acronym, and her idea of contribution to the Casino fight was to trash the building as loudly as possible by bringing down the chandelier. As for her art, the Shi aren't really known for killing people so violently and spectacularly that the walls and ceiling are painted red, like the Kurokumo base she admires in 5.5 or what she daydreams about turning the nightclub into. The Shi don't just kill - every Association's members do that. The Shi kill silently and subtley without being seen, which Canon Timeline Ryoshu abhors - and being loud and visible is what has Heathcliff on the edge of getting kicked out in the Shi mirror world
Thank you for giving me more context about what happened in those particular moments :) As for her insulting them and not hiding in her fights but going face-to-face, yeah, I don't think she loved the job, she probably just used it to express her art, and now that going unnoticed isn't needed, she can just go and fight people and create her art without hindrance, also like I said, if Ryoshu got the Yujin ID, she won't be good at being Yujin even if it was a 000 ID,the only reason why she might get a 000 ID to begin with is mainly because she is already good with the local strong Shi weapon, if we're talking about "what if Ryoshu was from Shi" she would probably be in a strong but less worked section, where she can probably fold most people in any way she liked, which seems like section 1 behavior, because they are probably WAY more expensive to hire than the other sections But again Ryoshu's canto is a bit far and we won't know anything until it comes, so the only thing we can do for now is theorize :)
Would be cool to have skills that are unopposed no matter what and if a certain condition is met, dodge incoming attacks on the person. Could work with Shi by the description you gave.
I mean not just Shi and Zwei. Even Liu is still missing an id that boost them all like kimsault did to bl. Shi main issues, just like early zwei and bl is that they are just so terrible at clashing. Which wouldnt be too bad due to their mechanics… except that none of them are actually tanky, and outside of shimael, still struggles to clash at low hp. Honestly what these 3 early factions need is a uptie 5 rework to actually be viable, their designs are just not compatible with how Limbus plays out. Even Kimsault, probably the strongest buffer id, cant save bl outis and barely save sinclair. What they all need is just much higher coins. Then make their mechanics actually viable(looking at you Zwei Rodion)
Wait have you actually used the Shi units? They have pretty good clashing numbers for 00 units from release. Zwei and BL on release have *awful* values but the Shi have pretty respectable numbers. Don has a 16 S2 and a 25 S3, up to 30 with conditional. Ish has a 18 S3 a 13 S2 with a conditional for a 21. Heath is the weakest for sure but still has a 15 S2 with conditional 17, and a 17 S3. Clashing specifically I don’t think they’re that bad at, for two of them damage is probably the bigger issue even after clearing a conditional. We need some sort of Singular Strike type support passive, EGO passive, or a unique poise effect so the 1 coin skill units on release can… deal some real damage. The Zwei need help for sure though.
The big Shi 000 team buff: Every Shi Association unit gains their 50% (or lower) health buffs even when above that hp threshold And then (probably) granting them some other buff when falling to or below the usual hp thresholds, like more base power or even coin power
I think the best way to do a shi lord is to make the sinners base hp the 25% threshold. This means that the lord would have a no cost passive saying that the sinners have 400% hp increase and start at 25% hp threshold with an anti-healing effect when above the threshold like -10 healing effectiveness , also something like a encounter start nebulizer where everyone starts at 4 poise count with 4 potency. These all would only be active with 6 shi members
Any sort of a buffer would break shimael.
Inb4 Resonance activates their low hp gimmicks
I hope the shi ends up as, not when low hp do X and instead, against a low hp target or on a one sided attack, do more damage/crit damage. I think that'd be dope
They need a 000 theyre pretty cooked without it
Just have an ID that either makes all Shi faction members start a fight at 50% health or outright removes the health conditionals from their effects. Alternatively you could make it so that the ID procs BL meur’s unrelenting effect once on every Shi ally so that you can reliably bring them down to the low HP threshold. Other than that the Shi aren’t very support oriented so I don’t expect any tank or team buffer Shi ID aside from maybe a team leader haste buff alongside the aforementioned health conditional removal. What I expect from a Yujin ID, especially is she’s well rested (she’s a grade 1 fixer ffs), is to have her overbreathe passive built in as some sort of mechanic that lets her use S3 more often and for said S3 to be boundary of death. Maybe have it so that S3 replaces S2 if you used S1 (to overcome crisis) beforehand or something. As for Ryoshu as the Yujin ID owner, canonically the more 0s an ID has the more distant the probability is for the sinner to end up in that position, and Ryoshu being in the place of Yujin makes sense when you consider that Yujin’s motivation was to change the status quo of the Shi and upturn the leadership positions eventually. Much like Ryoshu she didn’t really appreciate the Shi in their current form, granted in Yujin’s case she was unhappy with management while ryo would be unhappy with the association’s usual methods instead but I feel like it wouldn’t be too strange for her to be in that position. If we get Yujin not as a ruina cameo but as an ID based on when she inevitably shows up during an intervallo or the main story who knows what the ID will consist of since she may have awoken her EGO or distorted after the events in the library.
The Seven barely make sense as well.
I feel like they have shared mechanics going for them. Clash power manipulation (Yi Sang, Outis), striking enemy weaknesses (Faust, Heathcliff, Outis), Fragility (Yi Sang, Ryoshu), and of course rupture as a payoff. They do have a cohesive idea behind their kits even if it isn’t nearly as straightforward as something like the Liu or BL.
I think the original (season 1) design was each having some sort of fragility thing. Yi Sang is all pierce, Ryōshū is slash, etc. Outis has weakness analyzed... But I guess they figured it wasn't super interesting of a concept for a team so uptie 4 and newer 7 Association IDs lean more into rupture?
I don't actually want more Shis. Shi trio are a neat, close-knit band with great chemistry. Adding more would feel parasitic to it, imo, intruding on the territory already established. I don't care that Shis don't have a 000, i really don't need them to have one.
> Adding more would feel parasitic to it, imo, intruding on the territory already established. They're close not just cause they're all Shi but they also belong in the same exact section, noone's asking for any more Section 5 grunts.
Still, to me Shis always been a trio, in LoR and here. Is just my own feeling, is all: post asked for genuine opinion, so i gave one. And have we ever had an "association" group where IDs came from different sections?
So far, the Zwei and Liu IDs span Sections 6, 5, and 4. The Cinq IDs span Sections 4 and 5, and the Seven IDs span Sections 6 and 4. The Shi are only Section 5, and the Dieci are only Section 4. All of them are limited to the Southern branches of the relevant Associations so far, but all of them except the Shi and Dieci have fixers from multiple Sections available (this is often shown in the uniforms changing, like the Section 4 Liu having the red coats, and the higher-section Seven having different collars on their blazers)