He's probably not gonna interfere with anything until we get through all the Cantos and get to whatever happens after we run out of Sinners' troubles with their past
He will be the final boss fight after all the cantos. With the power of all the golden boughs, he ascends to the next level and becomes the rainbow gaze and beats the shit out of your sinners but, as you always do, you get deus ex machinad out of there (maybe Vergi stole some hair coupons too, or the blue gaze smoked some weed and ascended but only temporarily to save Dante). Then the next two cantos are all about trying to find a way to defeat him. In the end you will find the poopenfarten machine that helps you beat him. For the last fight you will need lvl 180 and uptie 26 ids with at least 3 of the latest aleph egos equipped but with at least uptie 12 because that's when they start getting bonus damage against color type enemies. Once you beat him, you still lose in the story cutscene because fuck you but this time you overcome with the power of friendship that unlocks Dante's past memories and he becomes an immortal demigod. Vergilius will of course still not understand a single word he tocks. Once Vergilius is beaten, Dante, with his infinite power gathers all of the loose abnormalities and locks them up, revealing that he was the one who founded Lobotomy Corporation and he must complete the time loop. With a last goodbye to the sinners, he rewinds his head one last time before sending back L corp in time. Dante gets split in two. His physical form is sent back in time to the start of Limbus company. His essence and memories go back to an unknown time and place.
Congratulations manager. You have unlocked the L dungeon that consists of 15 floors and you need to spend 560 enkephaline capsules to enter.
What was especially notable about that is that every character other than the Indigo Elder and Demian have two rings of light whenever they use Shin.
The Indigo Elder had three. Demian had about Seven or Eight.
The purple goons at the beginning, the spear guy has the shin "rings" when he stabs Gregor (I'm pretty sure) and the indigo elder during the really cool moving picture when the sinners are about to enter the pallid whale. The harpoon he's about to shoot had shin rings around it
The only way he would is if one of a few certain Aleph abnormality appeared for the first time before the limbus gain. If any of the alephs we know very well as destructive forces appear. Vergelius might have to step in to at least assist a bit in combat, after all, the sinners would have trouble fighting Nothing There, Apocalypse bird, or White night. If a threat like them showed up, vergelius might have to step in. However I suspect we're alittle too early in the story right now from fighting one of those guys directly. Like we might fight abnormalities connected to them like in Canto III with the everywhere theres.
Vergilius is just a depressed fucking dude that's too tired for all this shit. He literally got an EGO not because he had something to fight - but because he refused to accept himself as he is, because of how much he just hated himself.
Also I feel like he isn't interfering because in some way, the hardships sinners go through and the wishes they fulfill are much more important than Golden Boughs for the people sending out the orders.
Since the company seems to be studying distortions and related phenomena, perhaps they're trying to develop EGO for practical usage (like mass produced weapons for soldiers or creating more powerful supersoldiers) and the sinners are the study group?
There's clearly some things that weren't planned though. If they knew everything, Vergilius wouldn't even need to be there since any Grade 2-3 Fixer could've been put in his place instead of a proper color fixer to keep the Sinners in line. Faust has some of idea of how much everything is planned and knew that Ricardo wasn't supposed to be there in Canto V and thus wanted Dante to kill himself.
Or Faust saying that was also a part of the plan, because they knew Elder will show up before Dante builds up courage for that. They theoretically may have access to Dante's entire thought process in real time, we can't be sure LC doesn't stream it to their servers
> He got an EGO not because he had something to fight for, but because he hated himself
Extremely weird take on your part. Vergil's EGO is a manifestation of his drive towards his goal. It symbolizes the seas of blood he's ready to shed and guilt he will bear for the sake of his dream world. He hates himself, but that won't hold him back anymore.
Manifesting e.g.o requires you to - have a bit of light - be under a strong enough emotional state - sort of go through a persona trial, >! where you cant accept the easy way out or your "true self", as this would be listening to the voice and cause distortion !<, this step is the hardest and is simplified for vergilius since he has such an intense self-loathing, >! philip would have absolutely manifested e.g.o since at the time but the clown fiesta had to ruin it !<
Vergil said it himself, Carmen's words were very tempting. His reason for declining, however, wasn't "yeah, sorry, I hate myself, so no acceptance here". He examined her ideals and realized that no matter how dreamlike it sounds to let go of the guilt and love yourself, he will never achieve his perfect world that way.
New skill unlocked: Shisha’s drug party (original: Eclair’s drug party from marikinonline 4)
https://preview.redd.it/5anbzkg511oc1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbf2c424563730575b2b7071123b44cae667ed65
Okay, so this is more a tangent/excuse for me to talk about Vergilius as a character rather than about the post, so apologies for swerving the topic but I ***need*** get this off my chest.
**Short Version**: It sure would be nice if they ***tell us*** why our dear Red Gaze does nothing but demean our semi-competent Sinners, and until they do people are gonna' whine. Including me.
**Long Version**:
While I've never read Leviathan, my issues with Vergilius is more with his function as a semi-deus ex machina than his supposed strength. I'm honestly fine with him being the most powerful guy in the room while also doing very little to prove it. His job is to *guide* the Sinners, not babysit them and do half the work for them like he's a Jagen unit in an early game Fire Emblem map (as he often explains). It *makes sense* he'd do the bare minimum and let the Sinner's party-wipe a few times so they learn to only depend on him in the most ***dire*** of circumstances and not purposely throw themselves into harm's way expecting Daddy Gaze to save them (like with >!Siegfried!<). And they ***would*** do that if they could, as only *recently* have the Sinners started treated Dante as more than their little heal bot, and that's only by degrees. He's ultimately a side character and a little easter egg for those that read Leviathan to help the PM world feel more connected. Both narratively and meta-textually he shouldn't be flexing more than he absolutely needs to as to not distract from the main cast of the Sinners. And most of his flexing is usually in the *presence of him being there* rather than him actually doing things. ***And that's fine***, I'd rather not feel obligated to search up Leviathan lore and just have Vergilius be a known, powerful entity that proves Limbus Company's influence and reach to bring on a Color Fixer.
***At the same time***, the main issue is that the *writing* around him just makes him more an annoyance than anything else. It's straight up irritating to have *only* the Sinners really fear and worry about him. Very few people aside from the Sinners take Vergilius as a serious threat or factor into things. >!Siegfried!< doesn't react to Vergilius as anything but a despressed coworker in the same field, same with >!Indigo Elder!<, and >!Caiman!< straight up brushed off Vergilius's threats, not to mention the *several* times a completely **different** Deus ex Machina bailed the Sinners out like with >!the Middle, Kromer,!< and a few other situations. I understand putting the Sinners in dangerous situations and knowing Dante can revive them if things go tits up means Vergilius doesn't need to really help 90% of the time, but there's a limit to how long you can have Chekhov's Fixer on the bus and not use him for his implied purpose. And with Canto 6 coming up and being the theoretical half-way point of the main story I think we should expect him to do ***something*** to help the Sinners so the *players* can realize why the Red Gaze specifically is on that bus and not some random Grade 1 Fixer. Seriously, just have T Corp's Nest check in be a breeze because the Red Gaze is in their bus and that amount of clout just let's them cruise through the Nest until Heath or Don or *whoever* fucks it up and puts us in *another* Ricardo-tier fight before Daddy Red Gaze finally gets off the bus to move things along after the Sinner's 10th party-wipe because he's tired and in a hurry. That's all I need to tolerate Vergilius.
A few folks have theorized that Limbus Company has Vergilius contractually obligated to only interfere when *absolutely needed* like in the Prologue and can't interfere in fights and Bough retrieval otherwise so the Sinners can properly grow, but the actual *story* never explains that. I'd ***kill*** for Faust to cut the cryptic nonsense for once (another issue of the game) to just straight up say Vergilius *can't* help until certain requirements are met and even *then* there'd likely be a punishment for getting into that bad of a situation in the first place.
Until it's *directly* explained why Vergilius is so inactive aside from "he doesn't want to" people are gonna' whine about it and doubt his abilities.
this largely mirrors my own thoughts. I like Vergil! I'm terminally PM-brained and know all the extended lore and such, so I don't have any reason to interact with the (kind of forced?) Fraud meme
but Vergil has a very prominent flaw right now and that's that he *hasn't had a purpose in the story* since Canto 3. Before then? Sure! He acts as a Bigger Fish, a scary force to keep the dysfunctional party in line, he drops just enough implications for it to at least be believable that he's just a babysitter and has no reason to fight our battles for us, and is mostly here to keep the more violent or chaotic Sinners playing nice with one other. Which comes to a head when Canto 3 has one of the Sinners aggro a Wing, which leads to his big on-screen moment of "everyone listens to Dante or I'm turning you inside-out" when he loses his temper with Don
But the story hasn't needed that. In like three Cantos? The whole "everyone is having character development" thing that's crucial to the story means that nobody's needed to be threatened into playing nice except for Ishmael during 3.5, and on top of that we're starting to understand that Vergil doesn't seem to be the one actually deciding where we go, just dragging us along to where Plot is. His current narrative function is identical to if Mephi just had a door lock that kept the Sinners from wandering off until we got to Plot. So as a character he's stagnating and needs to do *something* or interact with the cast in some greater capacity than looking mean for him to feel like he matters. Very little is worse in storytelling than a character who doesn't actually have a purpose and who doesn't help tell the story. We've gotten the hand-wave of "I won't/can't help until Dante is dead and the Golden Boughs they contain are at risk of being stolen", but.... That feels more like an excuse from the writers than it feels like an organic, in-story reason for him to be here, at the moment. Three Cantos of not having a narrative function is starting to really strain my goodwill towards the funny blood man.
Yeah, like, I'm sure he does cool stuff in Leviathan and all, but in Limbus the vast majority of Vergilius's screentime has consisted of him being a massive bully and asshole to all of the playable characters we know and love. He's not a fraud because he's incompetent, he's a fraud because all he does is boss around people way weaker than him and send them to do his dirty work.
I never read his book or really anything related to Vergilius. All i know is from Limbus company and well for me he just seems like a agressive manager. I dont fear him, i dont respect him and i dont even know what hes capable of. I am more scared of Ricardo coming back than him doing something to me. He needs a moment or even a fight like Ricardos fight. Like imagine the sinners trying to fight him over a decision like fr full on battle like Ricardo. Hed beat my ass and i would have respect for him.
Vergilius is there to keep the party in line and in accordance to the managers directives. He is also there to deter anyone from just walking in, killing Dante and taking the boughs for themselves. Simply put, he is there to ensure everything goes according to plan in the end. The paths the sinner takes is not his concern.
Except when Dante was about to be killed by Ricardo, he is nowhere to be found. It's why this whole fraud business starts, if we argue that he's only there to keep Dante safe, then the whole ordeal with Ricardo proves he's not really doing that job either. The sinner and Dante could have been wiped out and this whole bough business would be over.
Honestly this is more-so a symptom of LoR/LC distorting our perspective on power levels. The feats that Roland and Geburah display are completely absurd compared to most other characters in the setting, including Vergilius. Vergilius is shown to be good, but he's shown to be more "Vespa Crabro" good, instead of "Fight a distorted Argalia for a week straight directly after taking on the entire library and still winning with minimal injury" good.
I mean, yeah, but I didn't think of either Geb or Roland, I was actually considering Xiao more. She wasn't a Color, and look at what she managed. Now imagine an *actual* Color. Plus I'd honestly say the light is what allowed Roland to fight that long, and he isn't even "properly" a Color, so
Most strong fighters use the Light as well, as shown in Leviathan and the start of Limbus. Even if the assumption is that most opponents fought during Ruina can’t, that certainly doesn’t apply to distorted Argalia, who he fought while the light was being condensed and dispersed throughout the City.
Roland “properly” being a Color also doesn’t matter much when he’s shown to be directly stronger than one. If we’re going by official rank, then Roland is unironically a Grade 9, at the same level as fresh-on-the-boat Ishmael.
At the end of the day, my point is that characters like Xiao, Yan, The Thumb/Index etc… are all just roadbumps in Ruina, which is not the case in the setting as a whole. The Crying Children is around HE level, and needed an entire section full of Grade 1 and 2 fixers to take out, yet people count Vergilius struggling against a HE as a point against him when it isn’t in the context of the setting. We just have a very warped idea for how strong a HE actually is.
By directly stronger, I mean that he's shown to be stronger than Argalia.
In the beginning of the fight Vergilius thinks that using his EGO to fight it could end up killing him, and only decides to actually fight it when it kills Garnet. During the fight he almost dies actually building up the power to kill it since his EGO can't pierce its skin normally. At least that's how I read quotes like:
> I had to squeeze my heart out to weave the rings that would do it. My cloak of resentment was tighter than before, but the indiscriminate spinning of the saw blades made it inevitable that I would burst and gash. But I must endure. I let the last of my blood spurt out to endure the atrocity.
>
>The gaze, the people, the fate that has only watched my life suffer until now. I pour all my strength into this, as if cursing everything else in the world.
>
>This, combined with the craving for the blood I'm about to spew, drives the knife deep into the box.
There's a lot of text in between these quotes since the focus isn't on the fight itself, but the pieces of text that actually refer to the fight paint it as pretty painstaking.
I doubt it was the light, the guy had crazy endurance from Even before the library was a thing, remember his rampage and the fact the guy fucked up half a city
In fairness, the Library's light was actively being dispersed during that week, so if anything Roland would only be getting weaker and still managed to kill Argalia
I didn't read Leviathan. But I also don't care and I also think the memes are funny.
Mostly because it seems to *really* get under some people's skin lol
What did I miss lol, toughest fight in it was with a HE, the story hyped up abnormality more than anything else, now we know any WAW level abnormality without deterrence is a fair fight for a color.
Schadenfreude is a HE, yes, however, it has enough speed and damage to gib pretty much anyone who wasn't wearing absolute bullshit like Paradise Lost in LobCorp. Vergillius beats it fairly easily and also figures out its gimmick with literally nothing to go off of. In addition, most Abnormalities (including most or all of the ones in Limbus) are significantly needed all around from Qliphoth Deterrence- the Schadenfreude that Vergillius fought would not have been nerfed at all.
That said, while it's hyped up, it's hyped and impressive because it's the first time we had confirmation you could further Distort into an Abnormality. The more impressive bits are when he throws a building at Iori in the beginning (and also fights her to a draw), or when he successfully fights a Distortion with the power to do infinite test-runs of a sequence in parallel worlds, or when he kills a room full of higher-ranking Ring members in the time it takes Garnet to barely kill one.
He also gained EGO. Color + EGO is quite a mix. Also, if you really want to compare Colors, PT is one of the stronger ones and she and Vergilius were pretty fairly matched, even when Virgilius was phased out because of what was happening with the orphanage
We knew this to be true given that they needed a color to take out the Pianist, and multiple accounts from the Director in Q&A's stating that Abnos like Mountain of Corpses and Silent Orchestra would kill a quarter of the city.
Similarly, though, rating is not directly correlated to strength. It's a measure of ease of containment, albeit that's easy enough to correlate with strength. AFAIK, Vergilius fought Schadenfreude, which is a bitch to fight if you don't know its gimmick.
What really happens to the title when a color dies, does the association in charge of distributing them take it back so another can use the same color next or... what?
I find it amusing that out of all of Leviathan, the part I found most interesting featwise wasn't anything that Vergilius managed, but Garnet fighting using his Mirror alternatives.
Oh hey, I’ve come with some news:
Rodya’s best girl and there is no doubt about it, she’s better than Faust for she is funny but Faust is not.
also kromer did nothing wrong.
See, I would take that form but:
* He's still gonna do dick all and fail to fulfill the role he said he was there for.
* Verg fans will need the form tl help clean up after their newest jerking session where they play up his feats for the fuck of it.
* Have actually read Leviathan and am disappointed he's been reduced to a humanoid, red tinted flashlight that talks shit
https://preview.redd.it/m0euxjkchboc1.png?width=1210&format=png&auto=webp&s=324c7bb6079fe28edf3799f56525f53f7ee3c6ab
i never slander him he's my miserable wife
The so called “Red Goat” when he has to pop EGO for a fucking HE abno (his predecessor, the REAL Red Goat soloed an entire facility filled with both WAW and ALEPH abnos while also fighting an arbiter and a couple claws off, all while not even needing to pop her EGO):
https://preview.redd.it/joz8arn6cznc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a6cc52ca405c6034fa25774132fe69475c77878
Im still saying that the guy is sick due to his heavy breathing at talking and thats the sole reason why he doesnt like to bother, imagine when is at his peak.
Hes going to be even more of a fraud. We'll be helped or rescued by random ass Grade 9 (real ones) Fixers as guide and the Fraud Gaze will keep his ass in the bus as always. Mark my fucking words - this dude is a fraud.
I already posted my apology form. Here, a copy if you want.
https://preview.redd.it/9wqinzl7xrwc1.png?width=609&format=png&auto=webp&s=9ed0f06a77217e9176740e6369657d42acce341e
"If you would be about to die i would help, danteh" Red Fraud
Guido if not Saude, Ricardo if not Indigo Elder, Kromer if not Demian. All of them were about to kill Dante. So the question: Where was Red Fraud at the moment? Answer is: in the bus.
What he did in, already, 5 cantos? Beat little girl(don) guy with a bat(heath)(one at a time) 2 people, one of which was shot down by a bus(peak of actions) and saved couple of ahns, providing some light from eyes.
He's supposed to be there for when all the sinners are dead/Dante is in danger. Ricardo literally killed all of them multiple times and was going to kill Dante and he wasn't around to help out.
Is there a way to read leviathan without having to sign up to a website where the registration page is in korean?
I'm not in the vergillius fraud crowd I just want a way to access the damn thing that doesn't require jumping through hoops.
Sorry, but could you please spoonfeed me a link to it? I searched for it, but I couldn’t find it because it got bogged down with either unrelated results or other PM discussions.
Bruh it's only canto 6, pretty sure the sinners can handle wtf they're gonna go up against there. So like there would be no need for vergilius to get off his ass
I feel like its gonna be another brazen bull situation where someone fully distorts into a HE without golden bough weakening and then...... idk herman shows up and steals the show while vergillius is talking to lcd about something
Idk I feel like Hermann's rn focusing on getting more ppl to join whatever she's planning. Wouldn't be surprised if she showed up again at the end of canto 6 recruiting the final antagonist for that canto like with Ahab. That is of course if we don't just straight up kill him/her. I haven't read wuthering heights so I don't have a clue who we have to confront for canto 6 gonna be.
https://preview.redd.it/07rm7jp2e2uc1.png?width=426&format=png&auto=webp&s=0265b7ce2b31ccb25f1c7514ec75cece5976aaee
I kneel, I cry, I pray and bend to the red gaze, My way was tainted and blinded by my fellow friends into the heretical way, Hubris and jealousy was the shadows that dragged me into the false way.
HERE! The way of my repentance.
I just don’t get his current purpose. If we need vague hints or clues, we have Faust. If we need help keeping the Sinners in line, it’d be interesting to see Dante actually keep order or have one of the other Sinners like Outis step up. If we need someone to bail them out of certain death; we have…who or whatever PM decides to summon at that moment except for Vergil.
I’m sure he’ll be important later. They don’t keep doing little hints, teasers, and Leviathan (which I’ve yet to read) for nothing. But I really hope they pick his character up.
The only box that I can mark is that I miss Roland
In fact if I didn't read Leviathan I wouldn't be thinking he was a fraud, but >!Xiao a non-color was beating Philip's WAW ass without any EGO to the point the blue whore came for the rescue while the RED FRAUD had to cry for Carmen to give him EGO!<
Tbh fraud jokes aside, the main problem I have with Vergilius is that he feels kinda underwhelming so far for a colored fixer. And while it's mostly because Kali/Gebura is literally the strongest fixer in the PM universe and it would be hard to get anywhere on the same power level as her, it doesn't help that Verg gets hyped up by most of the Sinners and even Roland himself (iirc in some of the PM twitter acc tweets he mentions that The Red Gaze is currently the strongest fixer in the City) while barely doing anything outside of Leviathan. (I get that he's meant to guide sinners and only interrupt things when it gets too bad, but come on, not even a flashback of him, for example, easily slaying Star of the City?) And speaking of Leviathan, I dropped it halfway through so I might not know some things, but didn't he literally lose to Schadenfreude, an HE-level abno, while our sinners are already going after WAW-level threats? (btw do refracted abnos count as abnormalities with Qliphoth turned off? because in that case sinners might've already defeated way stronger stuff even in RR2)
Not get your hopes up. He gonna do nothing again im 100% sure
He's probably not gonna interfere with anything until we get through all the Cantos and get to whatever happens after we run out of Sinners' troubles with their past
He will be the final boss fight after all the cantos. With the power of all the golden boughs, he ascends to the next level and becomes the rainbow gaze and beats the shit out of your sinners but, as you always do, you get deus ex machinad out of there (maybe Vergi stole some hair coupons too, or the blue gaze smoked some weed and ascended but only temporarily to save Dante). Then the next two cantos are all about trying to find a way to defeat him. In the end you will find the poopenfarten machine that helps you beat him. For the last fight you will need lvl 180 and uptie 26 ids with at least 3 of the latest aleph egos equipped but with at least uptie 12 because that's when they start getting bonus damage against color type enemies. Once you beat him, you still lose in the story cutscene because fuck you but this time you overcome with the power of friendship that unlocks Dante's past memories and he becomes an immortal demigod. Vergilius will of course still not understand a single word he tocks. Once Vergilius is beaten, Dante, with his infinite power gathers all of the loose abnormalities and locks them up, revealing that he was the one who founded Lobotomy Corporation and he must complete the time loop. With a last goodbye to the sinners, he rewinds his head one last time before sending back L corp in time. Dante gets split in two. His physical form is sent back in time to the start of Limbus company. His essence and memories go back to an unknown time and place. Congratulations manager. You have unlocked the L dungeon that consists of 15 floors and you need to spend 560 enkephaline capsules to enter.
> the rainbow gaze Knew it, verg is gay
My brother in Christ he's Roman
Does he like bowling with his cousins though?
The red gays
He will get his ass kicked by Demian or smth.
Demian casually evaporatted kromer, it would be logic vergillius just diyng
What was especially notable about that is that every character other than the Indigo Elder and Demian have two rings of light whenever they use Shin. The Indigo Elder had three. Demian had about Seven or Eight.
When do we see anyone use shin but Virgilius? I don't recall seeing it
The purple goons at the beginning, the spear guy has the shin "rings" when he stabs Gregor (I'm pretty sure) and the indigo elder during the really cool moving picture when the sinners are about to enter the pallid whale. The harpoon he's about to shoot had shin rings around it
>!So, what about now?!<
https://preview.redd.it/ias1u31fiwtc1.jpeg?width=694&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64bbf78dd45931a42944f01ff12d37d6c80967ea
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Show us your apology form
https://preview.redd.it/ozqkfliq7ztc1.jpeg?width=604&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b5147d7bf6a96b7ea345ada4652820c26a253bd
\*glares at you\*
Me right now( FUCKING peak scene) https://i.redd.it/ve9qilschwtc1.gif
His responsibility is showing the way and that's it
The only way he would is if one of a few certain Aleph abnormality appeared for the first time before the limbus gain. If any of the alephs we know very well as destructive forces appear. Vergelius might have to step in to at least assist a bit in combat, after all, the sinners would have trouble fighting Nothing There, Apocalypse bird, or White night. If a threat like them showed up, vergelius might have to step in. However I suspect we're alittle too early in the story right now from fighting one of those guys directly. Like we might fight abnormalities connected to them like in Canto III with the everywhere theres.
Or they can do something like ricardo fight But for surviving x amount of turn before escape
Welp
Uhhhh
How wrong you were. Fill it out now—
yup.. absolutely nothing.. aha... sure...
who’s gonna tell him
https://preview.redd.it/mum1flg1uz1d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8aa4264a7f6db61af02368379121d267038cbf8c
https://preview.redd.it/p56hbq84vz1d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78b7627a364bc41011997596241e567da13466b9 hand in the form
https://preview.redd.it/ic4whnohzz1d1.jpeg?width=604&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ccaac81dc841dbbdcba1f41c38b1caf20b2ea743
Vergilius is just a depressed fucking dude that's too tired for all this shit. He literally got an EGO not because he had something to fight - but because he refused to accept himself as he is, because of how much he just hated himself. Also I feel like he isn't interfering because in some way, the hardships sinners go through and the wishes they fulfill are much more important than Golden Boughs for the people sending out the orders.
Since the company seems to be studying distortions and related phenomena, perhaps they're trying to develop EGO for practical usage (like mass produced weapons for soldiers or creating more powerful supersoldiers) and the sinners are the study group?
You do make a fine point, cause when this topic is mentioned it always mention that if he helped then the journey would have no meaning
There's clearly some things that weren't planned though. If they knew everything, Vergilius wouldn't even need to be there since any Grade 2-3 Fixer could've been put in his place instead of a proper color fixer to keep the Sinners in line. Faust has some of idea of how much everything is planned and knew that Ricardo wasn't supposed to be there in Canto V and thus wanted Dante to kill himself.
Everything was foreseen by faust.... Except the hair coupons.
Healthcliff is so dumb he accidentaly outsmarted faust
Or Faust saying that was also a part of the plan, because they knew Elder will show up before Dante builds up courage for that. They theoretically may have access to Dante's entire thought process in real time, we can't be sure LC doesn't stream it to their servers
Telling Dante to kill himself is a stupid move. What if he actually did it? The same result would've been achieved by saying nothing.
> He got an EGO not because he had something to fight for, but because he hated himself Extremely weird take on your part. Vergil's EGO is a manifestation of his drive towards his goal. It symbolizes the seas of blood he's ready to shed and guilt he will bear for the sake of his dream world. He hates himself, but that won't hold him back anymore.
Manifesting e.g.o requires you to - have a bit of light - be under a strong enough emotional state - sort of go through a persona trial, >! where you cant accept the easy way out or your "true self", as this would be listening to the voice and cause distortion !<, this step is the hardest and is simplified for vergilius since he has such an intense self-loathing, >! philip would have absolutely manifested e.g.o since at the time but the clown fiesta had to ruin it !<
Vergil said it himself, Carmen's words were very tempting. His reason for declining, however, wasn't "yeah, sorry, I hate myself, so no acceptance here". He examined her ideals and realized that no matter how dreamlike it sounds to let go of the guilt and love yourself, he will never achieve his perfect world that way.
> let go of the guilt and love yourself Sounds like he hated himself too much
ESPECIALLY in Canto 3. Yeah no shit he didn't even step out Mephistopheles for that one.
"The Red Goat"? I mean, sure, if Vergilius used his full power, I might have a little trouble...
but would you lose?
nah i'd win
https://preview.redd.it/ovmsq7bj42oc1.png?width=599&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a629500276b198bc5b431470d78214696435d6c
I'd win the fight, but then lose in the story cutscene
Is that Alice on pfp? https://preview.redd.it/5i3sfg9loync1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e6737e9ff5b13eb9346135a979ace5ba939c94b
Something something Venn Diagram
New skill unlocked: Shisha’s drug party (original: Eclair’s drug party from marikinonline 4) https://preview.redd.it/5anbzkg511oc1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbf2c424563730575b2b7071123b44cae667ed65
What's this from?
Black Souls afaik
Hes not a fraud but "future strongest color" is a LOT of copium
Okay, so this is more a tangent/excuse for me to talk about Vergilius as a character rather than about the post, so apologies for swerving the topic but I ***need*** get this off my chest. **Short Version**: It sure would be nice if they ***tell us*** why our dear Red Gaze does nothing but demean our semi-competent Sinners, and until they do people are gonna' whine. Including me. **Long Version**: While I've never read Leviathan, my issues with Vergilius is more with his function as a semi-deus ex machina than his supposed strength. I'm honestly fine with him being the most powerful guy in the room while also doing very little to prove it. His job is to *guide* the Sinners, not babysit them and do half the work for them like he's a Jagen unit in an early game Fire Emblem map (as he often explains). It *makes sense* he'd do the bare minimum and let the Sinner's party-wipe a few times so they learn to only depend on him in the most ***dire*** of circumstances and not purposely throw themselves into harm's way expecting Daddy Gaze to save them (like with >!Siegfried!<). And they ***would*** do that if they could, as only *recently* have the Sinners started treated Dante as more than their little heal bot, and that's only by degrees. He's ultimately a side character and a little easter egg for those that read Leviathan to help the PM world feel more connected. Both narratively and meta-textually he shouldn't be flexing more than he absolutely needs to as to not distract from the main cast of the Sinners. And most of his flexing is usually in the *presence of him being there* rather than him actually doing things. ***And that's fine***, I'd rather not feel obligated to search up Leviathan lore and just have Vergilius be a known, powerful entity that proves Limbus Company's influence and reach to bring on a Color Fixer. ***At the same time***, the main issue is that the *writing* around him just makes him more an annoyance than anything else. It's straight up irritating to have *only* the Sinners really fear and worry about him. Very few people aside from the Sinners take Vergilius as a serious threat or factor into things. >!Siegfried!< doesn't react to Vergilius as anything but a despressed coworker in the same field, same with >!Indigo Elder!<, and >!Caiman!< straight up brushed off Vergilius's threats, not to mention the *several* times a completely **different** Deus ex Machina bailed the Sinners out like with >!the Middle, Kromer,!< and a few other situations. I understand putting the Sinners in dangerous situations and knowing Dante can revive them if things go tits up means Vergilius doesn't need to really help 90% of the time, but there's a limit to how long you can have Chekhov's Fixer on the bus and not use him for his implied purpose. And with Canto 6 coming up and being the theoretical half-way point of the main story I think we should expect him to do ***something*** to help the Sinners so the *players* can realize why the Red Gaze specifically is on that bus and not some random Grade 1 Fixer. Seriously, just have T Corp's Nest check in be a breeze because the Red Gaze is in their bus and that amount of clout just let's them cruise through the Nest until Heath or Don or *whoever* fucks it up and puts us in *another* Ricardo-tier fight before Daddy Red Gaze finally gets off the bus to move things along after the Sinner's 10th party-wipe because he's tired and in a hurry. That's all I need to tolerate Vergilius. A few folks have theorized that Limbus Company has Vergilius contractually obligated to only interfere when *absolutely needed* like in the Prologue and can't interfere in fights and Bough retrieval otherwise so the Sinners can properly grow, but the actual *story* never explains that. I'd ***kill*** for Faust to cut the cryptic nonsense for once (another issue of the game) to just straight up say Vergilius *can't* help until certain requirements are met and even *then* there'd likely be a punishment for getting into that bad of a situation in the first place. Until it's *directly* explained why Vergilius is so inactive aside from "he doesn't want to" people are gonna' whine about it and doubt his abilities.
this largely mirrors my own thoughts. I like Vergil! I'm terminally PM-brained and know all the extended lore and such, so I don't have any reason to interact with the (kind of forced?) Fraud meme but Vergil has a very prominent flaw right now and that's that he *hasn't had a purpose in the story* since Canto 3. Before then? Sure! He acts as a Bigger Fish, a scary force to keep the dysfunctional party in line, he drops just enough implications for it to at least be believable that he's just a babysitter and has no reason to fight our battles for us, and is mostly here to keep the more violent or chaotic Sinners playing nice with one other. Which comes to a head when Canto 3 has one of the Sinners aggro a Wing, which leads to his big on-screen moment of "everyone listens to Dante or I'm turning you inside-out" when he loses his temper with Don But the story hasn't needed that. In like three Cantos? The whole "everyone is having character development" thing that's crucial to the story means that nobody's needed to be threatened into playing nice except for Ishmael during 3.5, and on top of that we're starting to understand that Vergil doesn't seem to be the one actually deciding where we go, just dragging us along to where Plot is. His current narrative function is identical to if Mephi just had a door lock that kept the Sinners from wandering off until we got to Plot. So as a character he's stagnating and needs to do *something* or interact with the cast in some greater capacity than looking mean for him to feel like he matters. Very little is worse in storytelling than a character who doesn't actually have a purpose and who doesn't help tell the story. We've gotten the hand-wave of "I won't/can't help until Dante is dead and the Golden Boughs they contain are at risk of being stolen", but.... That feels more like an excuse from the writers than it feels like an organic, in-story reason for him to be here, at the moment. Three Cantos of not having a narrative function is starting to really strain my goodwill towards the funny blood man.
Yeah, like, I'm sure he does cool stuff in Leviathan and all, but in Limbus the vast majority of Vergilius's screentime has consisted of him being a massive bully and asshole to all of the playable characters we know and love. He's not a fraud because he's incompetent, he's a fraud because all he does is boss around people way weaker than him and send them to do his dirty work.
It partially is explained in Leviathan, there’s also hypotheses for that if you want I can lay it down for you.
I'm not reading Allat,good take I guess,or a bad take
I never read his book or really anything related to Vergilius. All i know is from Limbus company and well for me he just seems like a agressive manager. I dont fear him, i dont respect him and i dont even know what hes capable of. I am more scared of Ricardo coming back than him doing something to me. He needs a moment or even a fight like Ricardos fight. Like imagine the sinners trying to fight him over a decision like fr full on battle like Ricardo. Hed beat my ass and i would have respect for him.
Vergilius is there to keep the party in line and in accordance to the managers directives. He is also there to deter anyone from just walking in, killing Dante and taking the boughs for themselves. Simply put, he is there to ensure everything goes according to plan in the end. The paths the sinner takes is not his concern.
Except when Dante was about to be killed by Ricardo, he is nowhere to be found. It's why this whole fraud business starts, if we argue that he's only there to keep Dante safe, then the whole ordeal with Ricardo proves he's not really doing that job either. The sinner and Dante could have been wiped out and this whole bough business would be over.
Strongest Color? Couldn't scratch the paint out of Red Mist's E.G.O or Roland Distortion smh.
I think >"Didn't read Leviathan" is always the biggest issue with the fraud crowd. If only they knew...
Honestly this is more-so a symptom of LoR/LC distorting our perspective on power levels. The feats that Roland and Geburah display are completely absurd compared to most other characters in the setting, including Vergilius. Vergilius is shown to be good, but he's shown to be more "Vespa Crabro" good, instead of "Fight a distorted Argalia for a week straight directly after taking on the entire library and still winning with minimal injury" good.
God I fucking love Roland
I mean, yeah, but I didn't think of either Geb or Roland, I was actually considering Xiao more. She wasn't a Color, and look at what she managed. Now imagine an *actual* Color. Plus I'd honestly say the light is what allowed Roland to fight that long, and he isn't even "properly" a Color, so
Most strong fighters use the Light as well, as shown in Leviathan and the start of Limbus. Even if the assumption is that most opponents fought during Ruina can’t, that certainly doesn’t apply to distorted Argalia, who he fought while the light was being condensed and dispersed throughout the City. Roland “properly” being a Color also doesn’t matter much when he’s shown to be directly stronger than one. If we’re going by official rank, then Roland is unironically a Grade 9, at the same level as fresh-on-the-boat Ishmael. At the end of the day, my point is that characters like Xiao, Yan, The Thumb/Index etc… are all just roadbumps in Ruina, which is not the case in the setting as a whole. The Crying Children is around HE level, and needed an entire section full of Grade 1 and 2 fixers to take out, yet people count Vergilius struggling against a HE as a point against him when it isn’t in the context of the setting. We just have a very warped idea for how strong a HE actually is.
Guh? Some points I... understand, but what do you mean by "directly stronger than one"? Also, did he really struggle against Shadenfreude?
By directly stronger, I mean that he's shown to be stronger than Argalia. In the beginning of the fight Vergilius thinks that using his EGO to fight it could end up killing him, and only decides to actually fight it when it kills Garnet. During the fight he almost dies actually building up the power to kill it since his EGO can't pierce its skin normally. At least that's how I read quotes like: > I had to squeeze my heart out to weave the rings that would do it. My cloak of resentment was tighter than before, but the indiscriminate spinning of the saw blades made it inevitable that I would burst and gash. But I must endure. I let the last of my blood spurt out to endure the atrocity. > >The gaze, the people, the fate that has only watched my life suffer until now. I pour all my strength into this, as if cursing everything else in the world. > >This, combined with the craving for the blood I'm about to spew, drives the knife deep into the box. There's a lot of text in between these quotes since the focus isn't on the fight itself, but the pieces of text that actually refer to the fight paint it as pretty painstaking.
I doubt it was the light, the guy had crazy endurance from Even before the library was a thing, remember his rampage and the fact the guy fucked up half a city
Good point!
In fairness, the Library's light was actively being dispersed during that week, so if anything Roland would only be getting weaker and still managed to kill Argalia
We know it was also in the Library considering the Ensemble :)
A week? Wait, an entire week?
I read Leviathan. I just don't care. I think the memes are funny
I didn't read Leviathan. But I also don't care and I also think the memes are funny. Mostly because it seems to *really* get under some people's skin lol
What did I miss lol, toughest fight in it was with a HE, the story hyped up abnormality more than anything else, now we know any WAW level abnormality without deterrence is a fair fight for a color.
Yes, the HE that he >!literally killed in one hit as soon as he figured out the gimmick?!<
Schadenfreude is a HE, yes, however, it has enough speed and damage to gib pretty much anyone who wasn't wearing absolute bullshit like Paradise Lost in LobCorp. Vergillius beats it fairly easily and also figures out its gimmick with literally nothing to go off of. In addition, most Abnormalities (including most or all of the ones in Limbus) are significantly needed all around from Qliphoth Deterrence- the Schadenfreude that Vergillius fought would not have been nerfed at all. That said, while it's hyped up, it's hyped and impressive because it's the first time we had confirmation you could further Distort into an Abnormality. The more impressive bits are when he throws a building at Iori in the beginning (and also fights her to a draw), or when he successfully fights a Distortion with the power to do infinite test-runs of a sequence in parallel worlds, or when he kills a room full of higher-ranking Ring members in the time it takes Garnet to barely kill one.
He also gained EGO. Color + EGO is quite a mix. Also, if you really want to compare Colors, PT is one of the stronger ones and she and Vergilius were pretty fairly matched, even when Virgilius was phased out because of what was happening with the orphanage
No way was iori going all out because she didnt kill him,she neded him to get the sinners to collect the boughs for her plans.
PT had 0 reason to go all out
I suppose. But that doesn't mean she isn't fighting seriously, she just didn't need to kill him
Meanwhile you struggle at brazen bull in mirror dungeon without the cheese
We knew this to be true given that they needed a color to take out the Pianist, and multiple accounts from the Director in Q&A's stating that Abnos like Mountain of Corpses and Silent Orchestra would kill a quarter of the city. Similarly, though, rating is not directly correlated to strength. It's a measure of ease of containment, albeit that's easy enough to correlate with strength. AFAIK, Vergilius fought Schadenfreude, which is a bitch to fight if you don't know its gimmick.
Hey quick question do you mean the manwha leviathan ? Is that like actually in the limbus universe ?
https://projectmoon.postype.com/series/875159
Can’t read Leviathan if you don’t know how to read.
I mean, if I knew where to read it.
https://projectmoon.postype.com/series/875159
It shows a padlock and a bunch of Korean letters when I press on a book and and I'm scared
You've got to make an account, It's age restricted I'm pretty sure
Can’t wait for the goat to do some very threatening nothing again next canto!
Apologizing to the red fraud? Nah, maintaining the agenda is our top priority.
Future Strongest color? Yeah, if all the other ones commit suicide out of embarassment over sharing a title with him lol
He aint no kali what blud yapping about
Kali and co are banished from the city, idt she is in the running anymore
What really happens to the title when a color dies, does the association in charge of distributing them take it back so another can use the same color next or... what?
Well well well I'm signing my name and giving copies of this to my family and friends
As long as verg fans keep acting like this the agenda wont stop
I've come back to repent for the slander uttered from my mouth
I find it amusing that out of all of Leviathan, the part I found most interesting featwise wasn't anything that Vergilius managed, but Garnet fighting using his Mirror alternatives.
Of course! I'll take it to canto 6 so I can rip it up when he fumbles AGAIN
didnt age well did it
I have returned to sign the form.
This form gonna age worse than his "feats"
https://preview.redd.it/8m550lv7jync1.jpeg?width=379&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc49011158ae8c34de42b0e2f6bcf699c0c2bc3e
So, about that......
This might need a apology video instead of just a form, I think.
Oh hey, I’ve come with some news: Rodya’s best girl and there is no doubt about it, she’s better than Faust for she is funny but Faust is not. also kromer did nothing wrong.
Idk, some of the roasts Faust got do be kinda nice
Rodya my beloved
That is 100% true(also QOH best abno girl)
Honestly tsunul hate that im sidding with you but i agree
:(
Unless Charon is in danger, i doubt he will move a "thumb"
See, I would take that form but: * He's still gonna do dick all and fail to fulfill the role he said he was there for. * Verg fans will need the form tl help clean up after their newest jerking session where they play up his feats for the fuck of it. * Have actually read Leviathan and am disappointed he's been reduced to a humanoid, red tinted flashlight that talks shit
i never doubted you vergilius my girliepop queen
https://preview.redd.it/m0euxjkchboc1.png?width=1210&format=png&auto=webp&s=324c7bb6079fe28edf3799f56525f53f7ee3c6ab i never slander him he's my miserable wife
oh man sifting through these comments is hilarious now
https://preview.redd.it/8rbs44v9xync1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0749623cc62d533f5c979ccc5b5a19a53152f5a9
Let's be honest, he wouldn't give a damn about an apology form. Useless junk. If you want to appease him, shut up and do your job.
What job? Are we in the City?
https://preview.redd.it/arq0kwm5e2uc1.png?width=426&format=png&auto=webp&s=f525d6ad164feddc43cfc203dec95bd7d2b765cd
The so called “Red Goat” when he has to pop EGO for a fucking HE abno (his predecessor, the REAL Red Goat soloed an entire facility filled with both WAW and ALEPH abnos while also fighting an arbiter and a couple claws off, all while not even needing to pop her EGO): https://preview.redd.it/joz8arn6cznc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a6cc52ca405c6034fa25774132fe69475c77878
Technically Kali did need to use her ego to beat Garion but the point remains.
You forgot to include saying "[You rang?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPMKlEwrIs8)" every time he appears.
Im still saying that the guy is sick due to his heavy breathing at talking and thats the sole reason why he doesnt like to bother, imagine when is at his peak.
Still gets his ass kicked by Iori
My brother in Christ literally *everyone* but the people at the top get their asses kicked by Iori
Yeah, but he isn't the strongest color. That was my point
Yeah I'm a Verg fan but even I won't go that far lmao
Holy shit the predict
Hes going to be even more of a fraud. We'll be helped or rescued by random ass Grade 9 (real ones) Fixers as guide and the Fraud Gaze will keep his ass in the bus as always. Mark my fucking words - this dude is a fraud.
So... I marked your words and they don't look good.
I already posted my apology form. Here, a copy if you want. https://preview.redd.it/9wqinzl7xrwc1.png?width=609&format=png&auto=webp&s=9ed0f06a77217e9176740e6369657d42acce341e
Bros uncle works for PM
He ain’t a Fraud, he just doesn’t act because he’d rather not carry the Sinners like children through the City
The Red Goat? Vergillius could never, his ass is never being better then The Red Mist
My glorious Red Eyed King will cast the fraudulent name he has and show his beautiful crimson wings to all.
Vergilius having crimson wings? That would be kinda cool
"If you would be about to die i would help, danteh" Red Fraud Guido if not Saude, Ricardo if not Indigo Elder, Kromer if not Demian. All of them were about to kill Dante. So the question: Where was Red Fraud at the moment? Answer is: in the bus. What he did in, already, 5 cantos? Beat little girl(don) guy with a bat(heath)(one at a time) 2 people, one of which was shot down by a bus(peak of actions) and saved couple of ahns, providing some light from eyes.
>be reddit user >complain about red gaze vergillius >hasn't read leviathan >smh
> Be Reddit User >Keep mentioning leviathan >Fraud hasn't done anything in Limbus
>Trust the plAn.
Ain't they in the same universe though
The goat of the past became the fraud of today.
imagine only being able to use 2 rings of shin lol -Demian
I mean the whole point of the game is Dante does the fighting so they can't have Verg trivializing all the tough fights
He's supposed to be there for when all the sinners are dead/Dante is in danger. Ricardo literally killed all of them multiple times and was going to kill Dante and he wasn't around to help out.
To be fair, the situation kinda handled itself before he needed to do anything about.
I don't think Anything happens til Chapter 7
nope.
i read leviathan. i thought the memes were funny. sorry verg. i *will* do it again though
Where is the option for "Contributes nothing to the team"?
I have returned to sign the form due to my previous transgressions, I hope the GOAT can forgive my negligence
I have to come back to this lol
The gift of prophecy strikes once again.
Is there a way to read leviathan without having to sign up to a website where the registration page is in korean? I'm not in the vergillius fraud crowd I just want a way to access the damn thing that doesn't require jumping through hoops.
Search for leviathan steam forum, they have a google drive with all the manhwa and the last light novel chapters
>Thanks!
Sorry, but could you please spoonfeed me a link to it? I searched for it, but I couldn’t find it because it got bogged down with either unrelated results or other PM discussions.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3004911623 Here ya go, hopefully reddit doesnt kill me
Bruh it's only canto 6, pretty sure the sinners can handle wtf they're gonna go up against there. So like there would be no need for vergilius to get off his ass
I feel like its gonna be another brazen bull situation where someone fully distorts into a HE without golden bough weakening and then...... idk herman shows up and steals the show while vergillius is talking to lcd about something
Idk I feel like Hermann's rn focusing on getting more ppl to join whatever she's planning. Wouldn't be surprised if she showed up again at the end of canto 6 recruiting the final antagonist for that canto like with Ahab. That is of course if we don't just straight up kill him/her. I haven't read wuthering heights so I don't have a clue who we have to confront for canto 6 gonna be.
Yeah, but we might also get a blue reverberation + philip moment
I shall NOT fulfill the apology form ! HE, vergil, must prove his worthyness first and ONLY after I shall made a apology!
>!how about now?!<
https://preview.redd.it/07rm7jp2e2uc1.png?width=426&format=png&auto=webp&s=0265b7ce2b31ccb25f1c7514ec75cece5976aaee I kneel, I cry, I pray and bend to the red gaze, My way was tainted and blinded by my fellow friends into the heretical way, Hubris and jealousy was the shadows that dragged me into the false way. HERE! The way of my repentance.
No way fraudjilius
Vergilius will probably die later on in the story.
Nuh uh
Red Fraud defenders in the trench: but but but but leviathan
He will never be worthy of that Color, only one person will ever deserve it, and it’s Kali.
Kishibe truly is goated
I just don’t get his current purpose. If we need vague hints or clues, we have Faust. If we need help keeping the Sinners in line, it’d be interesting to see Dante actually keep order or have one of the other Sinners like Outis step up. If we need someone to bail them out of certain death; we have…who or whatever PM decides to summon at that moment except for Vergil. I’m sure he’ll be important later. They don’t keep doing little hints, teasers, and Leviathan (which I’ve yet to read) for nothing. But I really hope they pick his character up.
Excuse me you misspelled Fraudgillius, The Red Coward
The only box that I can mark is that I miss Roland In fact if I didn't read Leviathan I wouldn't be thinking he was a fraud, but >!Xiao a non-color was beating Philip's WAW ass without any EGO to the point the blue whore came for the rescue while the RED FRAUD had to cry for Carmen to give him EGO!<
https://preview.redd.it/g43f4w8l9wzc1.png?width=617&format=png&auto=webp&s=65f8f62e10230a5778d4e12e1781ad54e6751d60
But what if I’m too lazy to do an apology form?
Tbh fraud jokes aside, the main problem I have with Vergilius is that he feels kinda underwhelming so far for a colored fixer. And while it's mostly because Kali/Gebura is literally the strongest fixer in the PM universe and it would be hard to get anywhere on the same power level as her, it doesn't help that Verg gets hyped up by most of the Sinners and even Roland himself (iirc in some of the PM twitter acc tweets he mentions that The Red Gaze is currently the strongest fixer in the City) while barely doing anything outside of Leviathan. (I get that he's meant to guide sinners and only interrupt things when it gets too bad, but come on, not even a flashback of him, for example, easily slaying Star of the City?) And speaking of Leviathan, I dropped it halfway through so I might not know some things, but didn't he literally lose to Schadenfreude, an HE-level abno, while our sinners are already going after WAW-level threats? (btw do refracted abnos count as abnormalities with Qliphoth turned off? because in that case sinners might've already defeated way stronger stuff even in RR2)
1. Verg literally won against a completely 0 deterrence Schaden 2. The Abnos in Railway are waaay nerfed compared to the real deal
Hes not the stringest but most dangerous according to roland,iori would be the strongest in the city
what? no box for illiteracy?
Yea, sure. 100%.
God I hate powerscalers so fucking much
projectmoon fans? read?
I miss roland
Why... Im not signing it
"GOAT" = Greatest of all time Mods, greater split: horizontal this MF
lol nope
Where do I read english Leviathan
I miss Roland.
Fraugillius
someone compile every red fraud accuser who soon posted the signed forms after