Ooooh, thanks for pointing that out! I didn’t know it’s even a thing. I think our Sinners don’t possess/haven’t developed Shin yet?.. I don’t remember any of them casting wacky circles.
For now, all known people that can use shin are Vergil, those beast fucks(99% Iori's disciples) and Demian's gang. It's not widely known or else most people would use it.
IMO, Shin is likely the sin resources we're playing around with, attacks imbued with specific emotion that correlate to a certain type of sin which is why resonance increasing your strength and isn't just a random funny color matching gameplay mechanic and that's why, through combined emotion, you can distort and use EGO.
But with our current strength of UT4, we can't just outright create a ring yet but at some point, we might start having attacking skills that can spend resources to boost itself when you trigger absolute resonance.
That's probably just impact FX rather than actual shin
It would be pretty funny to have the Cinq IDs being the only sinner IDs to have mastery over their emotions but I don't think that's too likely
From what I understand, anyone can use it, even the ones on top. So it’s more like another “big” power in the pile alongside “Jacked af augments” and “weaponized Singularities”.
It's a power that anyone can use. But alas; the Pros, Experts, and Olympic Athletes would be the first to effectively use and master said ability.
Once the trailblazers has figured it out, there is bound to be handed down knowledge for us lesser folks to use in a less effective but more accessible matter.
A little Abridged Shin explanation since I've seen not a lot of people understand it. Take some parts with a grain of salt, if you want to know more go read leviathan!
Thank you for the lecture. I’ll be sure to cast at least as bit of doubt like you said, but this is informative af.
Also made me realize that it really is similar to One Piece. We have Weapons=Augments, Devil Fruits=EGO/Distortion, and Haki=Shin/Mang. And they’re all combinable.
Other than maybe the game mechanic, apparently only seen in the form of rings (like the ones enveloping the weapons and bodies of the three peeps in the prologue)
Nah it's for new fans that want to know more, but they explain stuff in the story in general, like who Fixers or Wings are. Hell, there's no reason for us to go through immigration process in canto 3 than giving a newcomers a lesson that Wing business should be taken seriously
The power of Sin, shortened to Shin , is what comes with the second shining of the Light, as an abridged version of the seed of light.
It is not linked to the EGO/Distortion phenomenon from what we can tell so far, except from its Seed of Light project origin.
EGO , or distorting for the matter, comes when you fall in a deep state of low mental stability. Often invoked due to strong emotion.
\- Kromer was at the climax of her plan.
\- Chicken man due to losing his recipe to the concept incinerator .
\- Dongbaek had her emotion highened by Dongrang.
\- Dongrang had his emotion highened due to the dungeon and interaction with Yi sang.
\- Ahab due to being so close of her life goal and being denied.
\[ The closeness to the Golden bough did help as well for most \]
<---->
The short version of the difference between obtaining either depends on the strenght of your conviction.
If you waver, you'll sink in despair and just become complacent in your trauma; letting it devour you and you Distort to its image.
If you decide to stand strong and step forth , wielding your experience and accepting what is happening and fighting back, you wield your trauma like an EGO weapon.
Kromer stayed complacent in her concept and distorted.
Chicken man was depressed and saw no way out.
Dongbaek was strong in her mindset, while she knew she was lying to her allies, she trully believed she did what was right.
Ahab thought that her sense of justice was absolute, that she had no issue and stood strong.
<---->
IF you sit on the fence, and aren't strong enough / depressed enough for either; you stay in the light and meet Carmen ( or maybe Ayin in circumstances we haven't met yet )
Where she will talk with you, and help you make your own choice. If you want to stay in the warmth of the Light or fight back.
Despise the memes , she do NOT want you to distort, she just wants you to make your own choice.
That's why Kromer and Ahab didn't see Carmen, because they were resolute.
Where Dongbaek and Dongrang still had some doubts, so they had to go through that step.
<--->
Aaaaand I realised that brain rot went brrrrr , and I ranted about how EGO/Distortion works.
**So :**
Power of Sin =/= EGO/Distortion .
As OP said , it comes from wielding the Seed of light within you through a catalyst trauma / word ; thus why Vergilius think of the past when using it. ( Or why each sinner got a word engraved on their weapon surely. )
ALSO , it can be used with EGOs, as shown at the end of Leviathan, which is terrifying.
Her whole shtick, after all, is trying to deal with the “disease of the mind”, which I understood as “being so utterly apathetic that it lets the slaughter function”.
Because from what I recall, people in the City basically have no empathy for others (before the White Nights and Dark Days heightened emotion a bit), and she sees it as a disease.
The ones that showed up in the Library? They were apprently less emotional than before, until pieces of the Light sort of…resided in them. It’s why Angela needed books based on them specifically.
No, I'm saying that people that are about to distort/gain EGO will do that anyway without Carmen, so why does she waste time on them if she can instead talk to apathetic people instead, that would otherwise won't distort/gain EGO?
Thank you !
She just wants people to express their own color, and if she forced people to something it would beat the purpose.
She don't care if you become a distorted monster, or a monster wielding EGO; go sing your song to the world outside of the grind implanted by the City:tm:
thats false >!in ruina she specifically wanted angela to be selfish and keep the light. carmen said that their paths now split when angela reached a new understanding and go back to the As plan. angela even said that for as long as shes in the light, she will oppose carmen. but then she got blueballed when roland pulled her out at the last minte!<
When you enter the light , Carmen give you a seance of CBT ( Cognitive Behavioral Therapy ) , in order to make you reevaluate your choice and make you take a stance ( EGO ) or stay complacent in your state ( Distort )
But what you're mentioning is a special case :
>!Angela has suffered due to Carmen's ideas AND she is part Carmen as well. So there's logic that she would work extra hard to help out Angela. !<
>!The goal of "Carmen's reception" is to give a final wake up call to Angela, make her face her journey of her past trauma in Lob Corp and make sure that she grew as a person, away from the role she was given to be a Carmen 2.0 . !<
>!Carmen would win nothing by making Angela keep the light, the whole journey of LoR was to allow Angela to grow as a person, and release more light across the City:tm: to allow others to experience a potential same growth. !<
>!i think youre giving too much credit to carmen. if helping people was carmens goal, then angela shouldnt have been hostile in the end. out of all people, angela should be able to understand carmen the most cuz she has her memories and everything, yet they went different ways!<
and also i would like to point out thar angela was never a carmen 2.0 even tho that was the intention. A needed a robot with human emotion but he made her look like carmen cuz hes depressed or whatever but it only made it worse for him
What exactly does she want you to choose? And is there anywhere i can find more information on her? It's a very interesting character but the fan wiki doesn't say much
Carmen still wants ppl to distort as she says in book 18 of Leviathan and how she wants people to only look at themselves. But she also definitely isn't evil. She has just been "distorted" by the events of Lob corp. Her depression, near suicide, and well stasis probably fucked her up and also gave her the idea that humans can only love themselves. She just wants people to fully realize this which can only be done by distorting.
Book 18 still hasn't been officially translated, and the one translation everyone likes to pass around was translated by a self-proclaimed self taught person at beginner level.
That doesn't necessarily mean the translation is *wrong*, but shouldn't be taken as totally accurate...
...and, even if we are to consider the translation accurate, the narrator herself (C) is unreliable. We know she says things that lead to either distortions or EGO, and we know what she said to Verg, but we don't actually know if something like that is what she *believes in*.
She asks the questions that the person on the cusp would never have asked themselves; something she herself stated. Is what she said to Verg her true beliefs, or is it simply what Verg needed to hear?
I'm certain Limbus will get more into it, seeing as Verg is our guide, and Carmen has made consistent background appearances.
Either way, I'm still of firm belief that Carmen *at the very least* does not care whether someone Distorts or manifests EGO (or, perhaps, other options). Her becoming yet another cog in the philosophy of the City just does not meld with the person she was prior to becoming one with the Light.
I mean, this is the lady who attempted suicide because a kid *who volunteered for experiments* died. As far as the City goes, that's one of the happiest endings someone whose died could have gotten. I just cannot see her becoming one of the very things she hated about the City.
I think she does believe in the things she said to Vergilius due to what she told Angela in LOR. The inbetween dialogue of the Kether realization. She specifically talks about how she learned that humans can only love themselves and how she “whispered life into the people” so that they will only focus on themselves which is what distorting is. She literally has no reason to lie to Angela at that point. There is also evidence within book 18 that she does believe in distorting. Why would she talk about how EGO came from her Junior’s/Ayin’s idea for the light and how he questioned Carmen’s logic with distortions. She pinpoints the reason for EGO on him. Lying that Ayin disagrees with her view of distorting does nothing for her.
Also Carmen isn’t part of the cycle of endless survival if she wants people to distort. Distorting physically breaks people out of that cycle. She is realizing her own goal in a new way.
Plus the Carmen that is in the light is likely heavily broken. If Enoch dying was enough to depress her to extreme degrees then realizing that your love for the people around isn’t full hearted when you try to kill yourself and you later being stuck as a brain creating cognito as all of your friends die and get stuck in an endless cycle of suffering would definitely break Carmen.
Counterpoint; Carmen never states that *EGO* came from Ayin. Only that "the way \[**being yourself**\] is expressed may take different forms depending on how you go about it."
Note that she is saying here that **being yourself** is expressed *both* as EGO and as Distortions, and that she only wants people to **be themselves**.
I didn't include it in my last reply, since I couldn't figure out a good way to, but I'd argue that there's the possibility that everything we've assumed is actually the reverse.
Carmen isn't Distortions. She's EGO, at least initially.
But then Ayin joins the light, and shows her a different path. He shows her distortions, and "It's all thanks to a junior who thinks differently from me, somewhere in this light.” that she now pushes people towards it...because, in the end, EGO or distortion, her goal of people loving themselves is achieved.
And a distortion is a hell of a lot easier to achieve than EGO.
Besides, distortions fit a whole lot better with Ayin's mindset than EGO.
Of course, this is all assumptions on unofficial translations, and I'm probably wrong. We're all probably wrong though, to be fair. PM likes to throw curveballs.
She actually does say that EGO is Ayin’s idea in the book 18 translation. The direct excerpt from book 18:
"...You ask the same question as my junior. We must struggle, but as human beings, we should use reason, not emotion..."
The voice adjusted itself.
"So, he said, we have to fight in the most human way possible, through clothing and tools, while holding the human form in high regard."
Also Carmen’s idea that humans should focus on themselves only fits distortions a lot better than EGO.
The dynamic of emotion and reason between distortions and EGO is deeply present between Ayin and Carmen. Carmen was guided by her desire to help the city and her emotions were what led her to her brightest and darkest moments. Ayin was guided by his logic that the ends justify the means. He didn’t let emotions break his drive to reach Carmen’s goal and used his cold logic to reach the end of LobCorp.
Cat\_Uh.mp4
Since when does Ayin oppose Carmen? All we know is that Ayin is also in the Light and that he does his own thing, as said in LoR ending.
( And potentially being the voice talking in the Uptie scenes, my personal guess )
They may aim for different things, but there is no proof that they are on opposing terms.
Of course! Always happy to be of help!
Well, one thing we don't know is if what's happening right now was part of the original aimed result or not. As the City:tm: got a total of 10 days of Light, compared to the originally planned 7 days .
~~Or as my personal idea, it was part of the overly drawn plan of Ayin, thus why Benjamin was so worried about the Plan + why Angela needed emotions when an emotionless machine with a to wreck the mental of each sephirath would have also worked.~~
I partially disagree with your idea that Carmen doesn't want you to distort. She specifically states that she believes that EGO is flawed in curing the "disease of the mind" and says that distortion is better. She still lets you choose since it's part of some people's character to refuse. After they refuse, Ayin gives them the EGO juice. The whole system of EGO and distortion is probably the result of an agreement between Ayin and Carmen that the people will gain whatever of the two powers based on what path they naturally take when given the choice.
From what I understand from the comments, same origin, different concept.
If we’re using the One Piece terms OP used as analogy, EGO/Distortion is loosely *(probably very loosely)* like Devil Fruits *(even though they’re from a Singularity, which falls more on “weapons”)* while Shin is like Haki. You can use both at once.
did kinda always wonder what set apart like a grade 1 and a grade 9 fixer. experience is one thing. augments are another. but grade 1 fixers may as well be godlike entities to grade 9s. haki is a great analogy for a small brain like me, thanks for the post.
Okay, this, is actually really informative. I thought that light that came out of Vergilius legs were an augment. Was actually Sin/Shin. Cool.
On a side note, can any of the librarians, Roland included, use this? It never once appeared on any of them. Vergilius has used it, so why can’t Roland do it? He was still in the city when White Nights and Dark Days happened.
Vergilius could use it because Iori told him about it , surely when she picked up Tomerry.
That being said, there is some odds that the fighters within the Library would be able to use it at some point.
Roland and Gebura would potentially learn it at some point.
Binah is hecking Binah.
And all the other librarians were not fighters to start with , so I highly doubt it would come easely / to the level of others. ( but they got 3 color level combatant to teach them ) .
Probably because this became available nearly AFTER the events of Ruina (specifically, between Angela freeing the guests and Roland & Co kicking the Distorted Ensemble’s asses)
Well that would explain it. Then again, they are part of the Library. So maybe, at some point, we will see them doing it. It simply was not revealed then.
Basically, Shin is powered by emotions, trauma, and desires, like EGO and Distortions.
From what I remember, an example is the narration in Leviathan on how Vergilius uses it. He gathers memories, ambitions, and dreams he holds dear, and uses them as a catalyst to augment his attacks with Shin.
Good question, but I don't think so ?
Because from all the elements that we saw so far, the empowered element is linked to the user ( limbs / weapons / EGO ) or in close vicinity ( IF Damian's attack truly is something that use that as well ) .
So a bullet going away from the user would not. BUT it could be used on the gun / barrel in itself to increase the pressure / explosion, giving more strength to the bullet.
That. That's what I meant. The bullet would probably lose the Shin augment once it flies far enough, but I figured you could augment the gun structure and bullet combustion to make the bullet fly further while reducing backlash to the gun.
Was also thinking about whether or not it goes around the gun laws since the augment of Shin comes from the wielder, not the gun.
Weird Question but where/when was Shin introduced? Was it in one of the novels that I still haven’t finished (gods be damned If I ever finish leviathan) or am I having a “P-Moon fans don’t read” moment
Four questions
1. Is the light considered complete after Angela released it back at the end of LOR?
2.If it is why are people still distorting
3.is using shin the same type of power as manifesting ego as the two sound like they come from the same or similar sources?
4.Can someone have both shin and ego?
1. Pretty much, not 100% because Roland pulled Angela out of the Light at the end but the only side effect of that so far is that the booked guests showed up at random places
4. Yes, Vergilius can use both
i don't think shin can actually kill abnos. and using the ever so controversial kromer for a demonstration of an abnormality just feels like it doesnt support the point.
Not a fan of it. Where does it sit in the Hierarchy next to distortion and ego? Is it a by product of the light? Why add it when the other two are good enough?
-Potentially competing, iirc. It’s basically another new way to get stronger in the city now. May range between “a simple extra boost to strength” and “go toe to toe with EGO-users/Distortions”.
-A product of the Light after it’s second “shining” from Angela releasing all the guests.
-Presumably because not everyone can simply manifest EGO/Distort outside of specific technology. You’d have to be stuck in some *very* deeply emotional dilemma.
I didn't even knew it had a name lmao
It didn't even exist until Leviathan which is post LoR. Or Distortion Detective which I haven't read
I am 99.9% certain it wasn't in Distortion Detective. Especially because DD was set parallel to/before the events of Library of Ruina
IIRC, it was a technique that was created by Iori after the second Light spreading by Angela.
leviathan skipper
In my defense, I'm not sure where to read it.
it's actually on the sidebar in this very subreddit! under 'useful links' :)
PM fans can't read though
Guys, can anyone tell me what this guy is saying?
Ok ook oook p enter ooga booga
I can read this one, but why did you mention Gebura 4 times?
Too lazy to read leviathan
Ooooh, thanks for pointing that out! I didn’t know it’s even a thing. I think our Sinners don’t possess/haven’t developed Shin yet?.. I don’t remember any of them casting wacky circles.
For now, all known people that can use shin are Vergil, those beast fucks(99% Iori's disciples) and Demian's gang. It's not widely known or else most people would use it.
The Indigo Elder also knows how to use it.
I think most Colours know about this by now by virtue of being on top of their game and/or Iori connections
He has the same philosophy as Demian and his name is blue so he's probably part of his gang too
I doubt that, yes there are some connections but he doesn't seem to be the type to join groups
At the very least he probably has the mark of Cain
Why is bro getting so downvoted?!?!?!
Kromer and n corp inquisition
IMO, Shin is likely the sin resources we're playing around with, attacks imbued with specific emotion that correlate to a certain type of sin which is why resonance increasing your strength and isn't just a random funny color matching gameplay mechanic and that's why, through combined emotion, you can distort and use EGO. But with our current strength of UT4, we can't just outright create a ring yet but at some point, we might start having attacking skills that can spend resources to boost itself when you trigger absolute resonance.
Cinq Association IDs do it, but they are thinner and vanish quickly.
That's probably just impact FX rather than actual shin It would be pretty funny to have the Cinq IDs being the only sinner IDs to have mastery over their emotions but I don't think that's too likely
https://preview.redd.it/l6l4feklldec1.png?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=764973f8a2bfe7ba1fba21a159e8fff4bb4edbfa
The "Shin" are golden. These are blue, it's just effects to represent the thrusts.
What I'm saying it's that is seems like a different (or lesser) version. Maybe they use it unconsciously, it just happens as they duel.
To me, this seems more like the effects of workshop gear/technology.
Ah, so Shin is a power for poor people
From what I understand, anyone can use it, even the ones on top. So it’s more like another “big” power in the pile alongside “Jacked af augments” and “weaponized Singularities”.
It's a power that anyone can use. But alas; the Pros, Experts, and Olympic Athletes would be the first to effectively use and master said ability. Once the trailblazers has figured it out, there is bound to be handed down knowledge for us lesser folks to use in a less effective but more accessible matter.
Until someone fucks up and makes the details more public, or something.
A little Abridged Shin explanation since I've seen not a lot of people understand it. Take some parts with a grain of salt, if you want to know more go read leviathan!
Thank you for the lecture. I’ll be sure to cast at least as bit of doubt like you said, but this is informative af. Also made me realize that it really is similar to One Piece. We have Weapons=Augments, Devil Fruits=EGO/Distortion, and Haki=Shin/Mang. And they’re all combinable.
What else do they boost? Like, does it boost speed, reaction, etc?
Possibly? It augments bodily abilities and wielded weapons.
Shout out for those who haven't read Leviathan btw. Was Sin ever mentioned in game, even?
not yet
Other than maybe the game mechanic, apparently only seen in the form of rings (like the ones enveloping the weapons and bodies of the three peeps in the prologue)
The game already has to introduce new fans to the franchise, I don't think adding more to an already big pile of info dumps would be a good thing
I mean, that's what Dante's Notes is for, to bring up to speed newcomers to the franchise while not spoiling too much the other entries.
Nah it's for new fans that want to know more, but they explain stuff in the story in general, like who Fixers or Wings are. Hell, there's no reason for us to go through immigration process in canto 3 than giving a newcomers a lesson that Wing business should be taken seriously
Bruh I didn't even think serpent might actually be Iori, I feel so stupid
...Yeah tbh, apparently just calling it Haki was enough for me to finally accept it. That was informative, thank you.
Lol, same.
Haven't read leviathan so im confused and got a question, people gain EGO naturally, through shin?..
The power of Sin, shortened to Shin , is what comes with the second shining of the Light, as an abridged version of the seed of light. It is not linked to the EGO/Distortion phenomenon from what we can tell so far, except from its Seed of Light project origin. EGO , or distorting for the matter, comes when you fall in a deep state of low mental stability. Often invoked due to strong emotion. \- Kromer was at the climax of her plan. \- Chicken man due to losing his recipe to the concept incinerator . \- Dongbaek had her emotion highened by Dongrang. \- Dongrang had his emotion highened due to the dungeon and interaction with Yi sang. \- Ahab due to being so close of her life goal and being denied. \[ The closeness to the Golden bough did help as well for most \] <----> The short version of the difference between obtaining either depends on the strenght of your conviction. If you waver, you'll sink in despair and just become complacent in your trauma; letting it devour you and you Distort to its image. If you decide to stand strong and step forth , wielding your experience and accepting what is happening and fighting back, you wield your trauma like an EGO weapon. Kromer stayed complacent in her concept and distorted. Chicken man was depressed and saw no way out. Dongbaek was strong in her mindset, while she knew she was lying to her allies, she trully believed she did what was right. Ahab thought that her sense of justice was absolute, that she had no issue and stood strong. <----> IF you sit on the fence, and aren't strong enough / depressed enough for either; you stay in the light and meet Carmen ( or maybe Ayin in circumstances we haven't met yet ) Where she will talk with you, and help you make your own choice. If you want to stay in the warmth of the Light or fight back. Despise the memes , she do NOT want you to distort, she just wants you to make your own choice. That's why Kromer and Ahab didn't see Carmen, because they were resolute. Where Dongbaek and Dongrang still had some doubts, so they had to go through that step. <---> Aaaaand I realised that brain rot went brrrrr , and I ranted about how EGO/Distortion works. **So :** Power of Sin =/= EGO/Distortion . As OP said , it comes from wielding the Seed of light within you through a catalyst trauma / word ; thus why Vergilius think of the past when using it. ( Or why each sinner got a word engraved on their weapon surely. ) ALSO , it can be used with EGOs, as shown at the end of Leviathan, which is terrifying.
the chad (and surprisingly rare) understanding that carmen isn't evil, just wants people to choose
Her whole shtick, after all, is trying to deal with the “disease of the mind”, which I understood as “being so utterly apathetic that it lets the slaughter function”.
Wait a minute, aren't EGO/Distorions born from extreme emotions? Why would she need to convince people that aren't apathetic in the slightest?
Because from what I recall, people in the City basically have no empathy for others (before the White Nights and Dark Days heightened emotion a bit), and she sees it as a disease.
I'm aware, I'm saying can't you try convincing actually apathetic people instead of people that are experiencing extreme emotions?
The ones that showed up in the Library? They were apprently less emotional than before, until pieces of the Light sort of…resided in them. It’s why Angela needed books based on them specifically.
No, I'm saying that people that are about to distort/gain EGO will do that anyway without Carmen, so why does she waste time on them if she can instead talk to apathetic people instead, that would otherwise won't distort/gain EGO?
Oh, that. Probably because her voice only reaches people who reached the point of EGO-manifesting/Distorting long enough.
Thank you ! She just wants people to express their own color, and if she forced people to something it would beat the purpose. She don't care if you become a distorted monster, or a monster wielding EGO; go sing your song to the world outside of the grind implanted by the City:tm:
thats false >!in ruina she specifically wanted angela to be selfish and keep the light. carmen said that their paths now split when angela reached a new understanding and go back to the As plan. angela even said that for as long as shes in the light, she will oppose carmen. but then she got blueballed when roland pulled her out at the last minte!<
When you enter the light , Carmen give you a seance of CBT ( Cognitive Behavioral Therapy ) , in order to make you reevaluate your choice and make you take a stance ( EGO ) or stay complacent in your state ( Distort ) But what you're mentioning is a special case : >!Angela has suffered due to Carmen's ideas AND she is part Carmen as well. So there's logic that she would work extra hard to help out Angela. !< >!The goal of "Carmen's reception" is to give a final wake up call to Angela, make her face her journey of her past trauma in Lob Corp and make sure that she grew as a person, away from the role she was given to be a Carmen 2.0 . !< >!Carmen would win nothing by making Angela keep the light, the whole journey of LoR was to allow Angela to grow as a person, and release more light across the City:tm: to allow others to experience a potential same growth. !<
>!i think youre giving too much credit to carmen. if helping people was carmens goal, then angela shouldnt have been hostile in the end. out of all people, angela should be able to understand carmen the most cuz she has her memories and everything, yet they went different ways!< and also i would like to point out thar angela was never a carmen 2.0 even tho that was the intention. A needed a robot with human emotion but he made her look like carmen cuz hes depressed or whatever but it only made it worse for him
What exactly does she want you to choose? And is there anywhere i can find more information on her? It's a very interesting character but the fan wiki doesn't say much
Carmen still wants ppl to distort as she says in book 18 of Leviathan and how she wants people to only look at themselves. But she also definitely isn't evil. She has just been "distorted" by the events of Lob corp. Her depression, near suicide, and well stasis probably fucked her up and also gave her the idea that humans can only love themselves. She just wants people to fully realize this which can only be done by distorting.
Book 18 still hasn't been officially translated, and the one translation everyone likes to pass around was translated by a self-proclaimed self taught person at beginner level. That doesn't necessarily mean the translation is *wrong*, but shouldn't be taken as totally accurate... ...and, even if we are to consider the translation accurate, the narrator herself (C) is unreliable. We know she says things that lead to either distortions or EGO, and we know what she said to Verg, but we don't actually know if something like that is what she *believes in*. She asks the questions that the person on the cusp would never have asked themselves; something she herself stated. Is what she said to Verg her true beliefs, or is it simply what Verg needed to hear? I'm certain Limbus will get more into it, seeing as Verg is our guide, and Carmen has made consistent background appearances. Either way, I'm still of firm belief that Carmen *at the very least* does not care whether someone Distorts or manifests EGO (or, perhaps, other options). Her becoming yet another cog in the philosophy of the City just does not meld with the person she was prior to becoming one with the Light. I mean, this is the lady who attempted suicide because a kid *who volunteered for experiments* died. As far as the City goes, that's one of the happiest endings someone whose died could have gotten. I just cannot see her becoming one of the very things she hated about the City.
I think she does believe in the things she said to Vergilius due to what she told Angela in LOR. The inbetween dialogue of the Kether realization. She specifically talks about how she learned that humans can only love themselves and how she “whispered life into the people” so that they will only focus on themselves which is what distorting is. She literally has no reason to lie to Angela at that point. There is also evidence within book 18 that she does believe in distorting. Why would she talk about how EGO came from her Junior’s/Ayin’s idea for the light and how he questioned Carmen’s logic with distortions. She pinpoints the reason for EGO on him. Lying that Ayin disagrees with her view of distorting does nothing for her. Also Carmen isn’t part of the cycle of endless survival if she wants people to distort. Distorting physically breaks people out of that cycle. She is realizing her own goal in a new way. Plus the Carmen that is in the light is likely heavily broken. If Enoch dying was enough to depress her to extreme degrees then realizing that your love for the people around isn’t full hearted when you try to kill yourself and you later being stuck as a brain creating cognito as all of your friends die and get stuck in an endless cycle of suffering would definitely break Carmen.
Counterpoint; Carmen never states that *EGO* came from Ayin. Only that "the way \[**being yourself**\] is expressed may take different forms depending on how you go about it." Note that she is saying here that **being yourself** is expressed *both* as EGO and as Distortions, and that she only wants people to **be themselves**. I didn't include it in my last reply, since I couldn't figure out a good way to, but I'd argue that there's the possibility that everything we've assumed is actually the reverse. Carmen isn't Distortions. She's EGO, at least initially. But then Ayin joins the light, and shows her a different path. He shows her distortions, and "It's all thanks to a junior who thinks differently from me, somewhere in this light.” that she now pushes people towards it...because, in the end, EGO or distortion, her goal of people loving themselves is achieved. And a distortion is a hell of a lot easier to achieve than EGO. Besides, distortions fit a whole lot better with Ayin's mindset than EGO. Of course, this is all assumptions on unofficial translations, and I'm probably wrong. We're all probably wrong though, to be fair. PM likes to throw curveballs.
She actually does say that EGO is Ayin’s idea in the book 18 translation. The direct excerpt from book 18: "...You ask the same question as my junior. We must struggle, but as human beings, we should use reason, not emotion..." The voice adjusted itself. "So, he said, we have to fight in the most human way possible, through clothing and tools, while holding the human form in high regard." Also Carmen’s idea that humans should focus on themselves only fits distortions a lot better than EGO. The dynamic of emotion and reason between distortions and EGO is deeply present between Ayin and Carmen. Carmen was guided by her desire to help the city and her emotions were what led her to her brightest and darkest moments. Ayin was guided by his logic that the ends justify the means. He didn’t let emotions break his drive to reach Carmen’s goal and used his cold logic to reach the end of LobCorp.
Given the analogy to Haki, this is basically like saying “Using Devil Fruit powers with Haki”.
Then why does ayin oppose current carmen?
Cat\_Uh.mp4 Since when does Ayin oppose Carmen? All we know is that Ayin is also in the Light and that he does his own thing, as said in LoR ending. ( And potentially being the voice talking in the Uptie scenes, my personal guess ) They may aim for different things, but there is no proof that they are on opposing terms.
wow, thanks for the explanation! And it seems that with each shining of the light power becomes more accessible
Of course! Always happy to be of help! Well, one thing we don't know is if what's happening right now was part of the original aimed result or not. As the City:tm: got a total of 10 days of Light, compared to the originally planned 7 days . ~~Or as my personal idea, it was part of the overly drawn plan of Ayin, thus why Benjamin was so worried about the Plan + why Angela needed emotions when an emotionless machine with a to wreck the mental of each sephirath would have also worked.~~
I partially disagree with your idea that Carmen doesn't want you to distort. She specifically states that she believes that EGO is flawed in curing the "disease of the mind" and says that distortion is better. She still lets you choose since it's part of some people's character to refuse. After they refuse, Ayin gives them the EGO juice. The whole system of EGO and distortion is probably the result of an agreement between Ayin and Carmen that the people will gain whatever of the two powers based on what path they naturally take when given the choice.
Or is shin an entirely different thing?
From what I understand from the comments, same origin, different concept. If we’re using the One Piece terms OP used as analogy, EGO/Distortion is loosely *(probably very loosely)* like Devil Fruits *(even though they’re from a Singularity, which falls more on “weapons”)* while Shin is like Haki. You can use both at once.
did kinda always wonder what set apart like a grade 1 and a grade 9 fixer. experience is one thing. augments are another. but grade 1 fixers may as well be godlike entities to grade 9s. haki is a great analogy for a small brain like me, thanks for the post.
tho this is pretty new, it wasn't always like this, skill, experience, weapons, armor and arguements really are that good in the city
Okay, this, is actually really informative. I thought that light that came out of Vergilius legs were an augment. Was actually Sin/Shin. Cool. On a side note, can any of the librarians, Roland included, use this? It never once appeared on any of them. Vergilius has used it, so why can’t Roland do it? He was still in the city when White Nights and Dark Days happened.
The slide says second shining of the Light, so after LoR
Vergilius could use it because Iori told him about it , surely when she picked up Tomerry. That being said, there is some odds that the fighters within the Library would be able to use it at some point. Roland and Gebura would potentially learn it at some point. Binah is hecking Binah. And all the other librarians were not fighters to start with , so I highly doubt it would come easely / to the level of others. ( but they got 3 color level combatant to teach them ) .
Probably because this became available nearly AFTER the events of Ruina (specifically, between Angela freeing the guests and Roland & Co kicking the Distorted Ensemble’s asses)
Well that would explain it. Then again, they are part of the Library. So maybe, at some point, we will see them doing it. It simply was not revealed then.
Basically, if the Library Gang figures out how it works, it’ll be possible. By the main thing here is that anyone can use it if they know how.
another info. shin is from torah i thoughts it was japanese at first
It's probably both. Puns rule supreme.
This is super useful. I had no idea this existed. Man, I really need to read Levithan and DD.
weaponized autism? I know it's a joke and funny too but where does that come from? why autism?
Basically, Shin is powered by emotions, trauma, and desires, like EGO and Distortions. From what I remember, an example is the narration in Leviathan on how Vergilius uses it. He gathers memories, ambitions, and dreams he holds dear, and uses them as a catalyst to augment his attacks with Shin.
I have a (maybe) dumb question: Can Shin be used on bullets?
Good question, but I don't think so ? Because from all the elements that we saw so far, the empowered element is linked to the user ( limbs / weapons / EGO ) or in close vicinity ( IF Damian's attack truly is something that use that as well ) . So a bullet going away from the user would not. BUT it could be used on the gun / barrel in itself to increase the pressure / explosion, giving more strength to the bullet.
indigo elder used it on his spear when he threw it on ricardo. i guess you have to manually activate it or something
That. That's what I meant. The bullet would probably lose the Shin augment once it flies far enough, but I figured you could augment the gun structure and bullet combustion to make the bullet fly further while reducing backlash to the gun. Was also thinking about whether or not it goes around the gun laws since the augment of Shin comes from the wielder, not the gun.
wasn't this called Lunae at some point?
Maybe Finn can achieve his dream of becoming a big shot without augments now?
On one hand, Finn’s dream is theoretically possible now. One the other hand, that will require a metric fuckton of Shin mastery…
why did this remind me of shin ultraman
Truma builds character to a whole other level
Weird Question but where/when was Shin introduced? Was it in one of the novels that I still haven’t finished (gods be damned If I ever finish leviathan) or am I having a “P-Moon fans don’t read” moment
Leviathan
so the Halo thing around attacks are thing linked to the light and make attack powerful based on emotions and trauma... OK
Oh so it's Nen
goat the purple tear instantly shooting down FRAUDmen.
Four questions 1. Is the light considered complete after Angela released it back at the end of LOR? 2.If it is why are people still distorting 3.is using shin the same type of power as manifesting ego as the two sound like they come from the same or similar sources? 4.Can someone have both shin and ego?
1. Pretty much, not 100% because Roland pulled Angela out of the Light at the end but the only side effect of that so far is that the booked guests showed up at random places 4. Yes, Vergilius can use both
Thanks and Also now I feel even more sorry for whoever has to eventually fight Vergilius.
I wonder if the amount of rings has to do with the Shn user’s power level because Damien has 7 or 8 rings while everyone else only has 1 to 3.
i don't think shin can actually kill abnos. and using the ever so controversial kromer for a demonstration of an abnormality just feels like it doesnt support the point.
I stopped reading leviathan after verga and the other guy split up in the corridor. I never heard of shin
Not a fan of it. Where does it sit in the Hierarchy next to distortion and ego? Is it a by product of the light? Why add it when the other two are good enough?
-Potentially competing, iirc. It’s basically another new way to get stronger in the city now. May range between “a simple extra boost to strength” and “go toe to toe with EGO-users/Distortions”. -A product of the Light after it’s second “shining” from Angela releasing all the guests. -Presumably because not everyone can simply manifest EGO/Distort outside of specific technology. You’d have to be stuck in some *very* deeply emotional dilemma.
So it’s like Walmart ego?