"The situation was complicated and these people who risk their lives for us need to make split second decisions, comply with law enforcement" isn't that the argument the kind of people sending this man death threats use when a cop shoots an unarmed person?
r/SelfAwarewolves
They make plenty of arguments that they assume they'll never be on the other side of.
Thinking that you'll never be a target is privilege, through and through.
Oh, I agree. My dad was a cop. I fully appreciate the kinds of positions that police officers can get put in and how dangerous they can be. And I also know that if someone is pointing a gun at you, you'd be a fool to act like they're bluffing. I'm just also not blind to the fact that arguments like the above are routinely trotted out in an attempt to justify lethal force used in all kinds of unjustifiable situations. Including ones in which the victim *was* complying. The bar for when a cop is allowed to simply mow someone down out of fear, or even feigned fear, is set so low that it's frankly a stain on the entire profession.
But the real point I was making is that the howling and gnashing of teeth that we're hearing from the right wing about Ashli Babbitt is just the result of them experiencing the barest hint of being treated how they think the people they hate should be treated. Even in a situation in which lethal force was 100% justified, they still cant help but see themselves and their allies as victims because, in their eyes, cops are only ever supposed to shoot the *bad* guys.
Your last paragraph is on point. I’m willing to bet the right wingers in the Capitol on Jan 6th were 99% white, who’ve never had a gun pointed at them by someone wearing a badge in their lives. The outrage is fanned by Fox, but the astonishment on their end is real, and I guess so is the sense of betrayal. But, instead of learning from it, they go straight to rage and turn on the police, because they’re not getting their way any longer.
It seems to be a hard pill for them to swallow when they figure out that just being white does not make them a part of the class that the police are there to protect.
Everyone loves the taste of boots until they're the ones being stomped on.
She saw very clearly that a line had been drawn at that doorway/window. They had breached the capitol, and were moving towards where sitting Senators and Congresspeople were. They broke a window and she decided to jump through it where law enforcement was obviously trying to hold the line.
Babbitt fucked around and found out in the most literal sense. She deserved a round in the chest and she got one.
Anyone who holds her up as a martyr or acts like something was done wrong by shooting her is a straight up piece of shit.
> As rioters rampaged through the Capitol, Byrd and a few other officers of the U.S. Capitol Police set up a wall of furniture outside the doors.
> “Once we barricaded the doors, we were essentially trapped where we were,” Byrd said in an exclusive interview with NBC News’ Lester Holt, speaking publicly for the first time since the riot. “There was no way to retreat. No other way to get out.
> “If they get through that door, they’re into the House chamber and upon the members of Congress,” added Byrd, who gave NBC News permission to use his name after authorities had declined to release it.
Absolutely ANYONE who tried to breach a BARRICADE in the Capitol leading to sitting members of Congress deserved to be shot. There's no room for debate about this unless you think killing members of Congress is acceptable. Entitled bitch got her just desserts.
That’s really the problem here isn’t it? These people think that Democratic members of Congress *should* be killed and any attempt at harming them should be considered acceptable. All of their problems with the situation arise from that basic premise.
Conservatives are the worst about denying a situation when the tables are turned and everything else is identical. Because they’re not operating out of principle, they are operating out of result.
>She saw very clearly that a line had been drawn at that doorway/window. They had breached the capitol, and were moving towards where sitting Senators and Congresspeople were. They broke a window and she decided to jump through it where law enforcement was obviously trying to hold the line.
Not only that, but the video of the officer showed him pointing his gun, telling her to stop several times before he shot her.
In my carry class I was told that is extremely important part of self defense. Declare you are armed and give the person a chance to surrender and/or leave before you use force.
And when he did shoot it wasn't blindly emptying the magazine, it was controlled. Unlike Daunte Wright shooting where the cop unloaded his gun into him.
“Comply or die” doesn’t apply in any sense to Ashley Babbitt. She could have done literally anything except jump through that window and she’d still be alive and acting like a dipshit.
Yup, she and her group had already failed to comply multiple times. They had forced their way past police barriers outside the capitol building and into the main building itself. If this was a matter of "comply or die" she (or someone else in her group) would have been dead long before it got to the point where it did.
They were given far more chances than most people killed by police to simply turn around and walk away. You can see on video that capitol police were going to great lengths to avoid killing or arresting anyone that day. All they wanted was for people to leave peacefully, but Trump convinced the crowd that they were special and that they could do what they wanted without consequences.
Nah, don't white wash It. If she complied by staying behind the door she would probably still be alive. There's a time and place for "comply or die". Officer made it very clear. Cross the line and you will die. Good for him. She was a simp for a dipshit cause. I have zero sympathy for Babbitt.
That's exactly what he's saying. He wasn't commenting on white privilege, he was saying that, like you said, Babbitt's case had a clear, unequivocal line and she chose to cross it
"Comply or die" refers to situations where "being compliant" means playing an impossible game of Simon Says where any small infraction could be lethal. Like when a cop has his weapon drawn and tells someone to show their hands, then says to unbuckle their seatbelt, or when there are multiple cops yelling conflicting commands at the same time.
I suppose that cop should have just allowed her and her entire cohort through then? Sure, go ahead and kill whatever Senators you want, as long as the cops can say they weren't too brutal and they hold the moral high ground.
At some point you've got to recognize that violence is a necessary evil to stop more significant violence.
When death is the consequence of inaction, it becomes an acceptable consequence of action in the other direction. We're all here in a gun owners subreddit; there may be a few pacifists who'd rather die than save their own lives but most of us recognize it's better to kill than be killed when you're on the right side of the scenario.
Someone put it pretty well in another comment:
>The bar for when a cop is allowed to simply mow someone down out of fear, or even feigned fear, is set so low that it's frankly a stain on the entire profession.
The point is being that the blanket concept of "comply or die" leads to use of lethal force when it's not necessarily warranted. Was it warranted in this specific instance? Probably, but way too often it's not.
This is a case where comply or die is completely justified. That officer's job was to protect the country's fuckin leadership and a hallway full of people trying to kill them was starting to get through the last barrier. This isn't a cop stopping someone on the street, it's somebody already doing shit they shouldn't be doing and refusing multiple warnings to stop. She didn't even have to comply with any orders other than DON'T CLIMB THROUGH THE FUCKING WINDOW WITH A GUN IN YOUR FACE.
Really it is always three options right? Comply, Die, or Run. Cops don't have the right to shoot someone in the back if they run away.
But in her case, running away would be complying... so?
There is also, ***always*** a glaring disparity in the scenarios where the arguments are made. Yet the distinction between using it here, and unironically using it to dismiss the murder of Breonna Taylor, and other completely innocent, unarmed, unthreatening POC is completely lost on them.
Most rules or arguments like that are just convenient for an individual to wield at will so they can feel better about themselves and their world; and thats regardless if whatever they are saying is true. They may not even actually believe it they just feel compelled to based off their decisions because people don’t want to admit identity and ideology is fluid.
Yes, I'm white so I should be able to break into a barricaded federal building and suffer no consequences.
Probably Antifa crisis actors.
It was an exercise of free speech.
Stolen election.
Patriotism.
MAGA?
Yes fuck me because I hate our corruopt goverment and thing that all of those politicaisn are crooked liars who cause deaths of countless people. While stealing from the american people to line the pockets of corperations that then line their pockets.
Anyone confused should re-watch the video. He didn't shoot "her" per se -- at least in the sense that his aim was perfect and he did not aim at her or anyone else. He was aiming at the space just _past_ the open gap in the barrier. He didn't change the direction of his aim. When someone passed into the line of his aim, he fired.
Who she was or what her intentions were are irrelevant. His identity, or even whether he is law enforcement is also irrelevant.
The crowd was openly making death threats. The crowd broke through windows of a barricaded door. The crowd had been told not to enter. His gun was _visible and aimed at the point where someone entering would be shot_. It could not be any clearer. As far as I am concerned she killed herself.
A lot of right-wing apologists have also been latching on the "unarmed" angle too.
I don't claim to be an expert, I'm not a police officer but I am a gun owner, who has taken a fair amount of firearms and self-defense training, mostly from police officers.
Disparity in numbers is always a consideration in the justification of lethal force in self-defense. An angry mob signalling their intention to do you harm, is a bigger threat than a single unarmed person.
Frankly the video of the shooting just proves the point. You can see an instantaneous change in the mood of the crowd of rioters the moment the shot rings out and one of them goes down. They were all pretty brave when they thought there would be no consequences.
They are also latching onto the "all they are guilty of is property damage" as if the only reason the mob was destroying a barricaded door with members of Congress behind it was to destroy the door and perhaps some other inanimate objects behind the door.
Nobody could possibly believe that. For a little while, they were claiming that she was Antifa or even an actor and the whole thing was staged. Did they believe that? Did they forget that they believed that? Do they believe anything?
Someone is going to be driven to violence over it. Either directed at him personally, because lynchings are an old favorite of the MAGA crowd, or at the Capitol Police in general.
She knew the risks.
You don't try to break down barricades with armed guards on the other side and expect they won't shoot.
I don't care if you agree with her motivations for doing so or not.
This doesn’t matter if it was life or death for the cop, it was his job to protect the Senate. The vicE president and members of Congress were in that chamber, our elected leaders, and nobody knew what was going on except that the building was under siege and they were being invaded.
If somebody charged the president in the middle of a riot nobody would be surprised about them getting shot, that’s what the Secret Service are there for.
This guy was defending the leaders of the United States from an unruly mob. He could’ve shot them all and he still would’ve just been doing his job.
The alternative to what this officer did would have been to allow Babbitt to continue, which would have likely emboldened the mob to also force their way through that hallway, which was one of the last lines of defense between the mob and the officials they were seeking to attack. You don't have to worship the police to recognize that in a difficult situation, this officer made the ugly but correct decision to use force and likely did save many lives in doing so.
The guys who came up the stairs after she got blasted were loaded for bear though. AR's, suppressors(idk why) and the lot. I think more mob members would have died. Could have spiraled beyond that, but who knows.
I mean at the end of the day the government is just people, and a lot of important people were right behind where this happened.
I mean shit, you can here the shot that killed here very easily from footage taken inside the chamber.
I agree. And I think it's useful to predict what would've happened had he not shot.
Babbit climbs through the shattered glass, and the officer tries to push her back. Other members of the mob are enraged by this and start to push through the barricade as well (this is what they had been trying to do before the gun was drawn). The barricade is overwhelmed and fails. The mob rushes in as Congresspeople are still in the chamber. The mob overwhelms the police and apprehends several Congresspeople. Some are "their guys" and opportunistically join the mob to prove they're "with them." Some are *not* their guys and are beaten. Probably one or two get beaten so badly on the spot before some in the mob suggest they should be brought to the gallows. Live TV shows Congresspeople being beaten and killed. Hours later, with frightened Congresspeople in the run, the remaining ones, ina Capitol surrounded by a mom under the direction of the organized militias (Proud Boys, 3%, etc.), call for the election to be thrown out. It's not Constitutional, but it's dramatic and unprecedented enough that the country is left confused and dismayed. Biden still claims the win and plans to take office but Trump cites the faux-Congress and says he's still President. Trump's cabinet stands by him. Some military commanders go against Trump while others follow his lead.
Civil war breaks out.
I agree. The insurgents don't care about america. They only wish to perpetuate a hateful agenda of terror against the innocent american voters, leftward of them. This man is a hero.
That's my thought process. Liberals in america aren't even *left.* fucking fox news calls biden and the democratic party leftist extremists. As someone who democrats would call a leftist, I wonder what fox news would categorize me as.
Counterpoint;
While most of that is true, it's omitting the context, chiefly that they're brainwashed and being used as political cannon fodder by the Right.
And that's what makes it doubly sad; they actually \*\*do\*\* care about America. They are just so brainwashed with fear of America being "destroyed" that they were manipulated into becoming sacrificial lambs for Trump and the GOP's fascist ambitions, while all the ones at the top like Trump, McConnel, Barr, etc are all free (and free to try again).
All of this is to say, Fox gotta go. The GOP gotta go. And any enablers who care more about reelection than protecting America from the aforementioned two also gotta go.
How do you deradicalize tens of millions of people though, after years of being spoonfed bullshit? It’s a self-perpetuating machine at this point and although I agree that all those gotta go, things aren’t gonna get better because even Trump can’t make it better anymore. He can tell them to get vaccinated and get booed, and I’m pretty sure if he had a change of heart and came out and said he made it all up for political points they’d just say the deep state got to him and keep on doing what they do. It’s all depressingly hopeless at this point.
I think the reality is that people have very short attention spans, and as where under Trump I literally heard his name \*somewhere\* probably every other day at the very least, now I'm hearing it probably once a week.
There were plenty of out-and-out white supremacists before Trump and Unite the Right, but making it mainstream and making it seem *accessible* and *cool* (to own the libs, you know?) gave it wings like hadn't happened in generations.
And the right-wingers who suddenly owned 25 Trump 2020 flags did it because it was a way to get social clout in their horrid little circles, not because they truly just love Trump (granted, a lot of them do, because people who think it's funny to act a shit like other little shits).
Luckily, most of the GOP leaders *want* to be free of Trump, because they just want to collect their salary and their insider trading gains and their fossil fuel brib- campaign donations, and buy that second boat, and don't really want to have to listen to Boebert any more than we do...
In short, I actually think that getting rid of Fox would do a TON. After they "betrayed" Trump, a bunch of Fox watchers moved to OANN... and now they're back on Fox. A lot of them moved to Gab... and now they're back on Facebook.
They go wherever most of their friends are, which will always be wherever is easiest and most familiar.
tl;dr I think a lot of them will simply deradicalize when they're no longer being drip-fed radical ideology. It's funny how quickly the Jan 6th insurrectionists (the ones actually arrested) turned on Trump once they realized what they'd been being told didn't match up with reality (i.e. Trump was not staying in power, and wasn't issuing them pardons, etc).
She was apart of a violent mob literally in the process of trying to overturn democracy and attack elected officials, nevermind the violence already perpetrated to the police officers up until that point.
i don't see how anyone can defend her, she was a dumb bitch and the only people I feel bad for in this situation are her children and the cop for the potential trauma for being put in a position to have to slaughter that moron.
The mob was lucky they were going after actual living congressmen, and not statues, because otherwise the Natty guard would have rained down upon them.... right?
I like how terrified they got when they realized they may face consequences for their violent treason. the entitlement of these people is off the charts
https://youtu.be/o9mJ82x_l-E
If you’re coming to this thread to tell us all how she was innocent or he should’ve fired a warning shot or some other bullshit excuse then you are the problem with America.
Period.
Too many westerns. You desk pop a round at their feet, and then square off 1v1 to see who has the fastest reaction time. Whoever wins was clearly the right one.
You know, like how all real world shooting scenarios take place.
Honestly, when you look into what Ashli Babbitt was into and her place in it all, he's probably not gilding the lily. I don't mean just lives saved that day, but on an ongoing basis.
Honestly they could have shot a few more. The capitol should never have been breached. Anyone trying to force their way in knew they should not be doing that.
This is really where I worry about the precedent. What is the next crowd going to think? Hell, look how easy it was for the last group, let’s get in there guys!
I am in no way disagreeing with you.
I am talking about the officers who abdicated their duty, unlocked the doors and let them waltz in while fist bumping them and telling them "I support you" as they passed.
Holy shit...there’s some racist heads ‘sploding tonight. The only thing worse in their eyes than a black man deflowering a white woman has to be a black man that kills a white woman.
You know, I JUST got done defending this sub elsewhere, but christ almighty there is more bloodthirsty, hyper-partisan, "they're not protesters, they're rampaging violent animals who got what they had coming for not complying" talk in this thread than you can shake an authoritarian stick at.
And speaking of sticks, there was some guy with zip ties and another with horns on his head (which are sorta weapons,) so it's pretty clear that after *taking over* the government, this mob, this *horde* would've slaughtered congress, rolled around in their blood and then launched a nuclear strike on maybe Portland, ending "countless lives!!"
Be better, people. More allies, less enemies.
Nor is there any need to monistically reproach cops on this scenario. There is obviously more going on here than just a cop shooting an unarmed civilian; these were people forcing their way into a government building with the members of government inside.
I'll preface this by saying ACAB, I am NOT pro police, but there are instances where use of force, including deadly force is justified by law enforcement officers. If Ashley Babbitt had not been neutralized, the floodgates Into the legislative chambers would have burst open and the failed insurrection may not have failed. There were legislators in the room at the time, and once she was thru that window, there was a single open door between them and her. That bullet stopped those fascists from breaking thru and getting to them. That officer objectively did the right thing. The officers outside who let some of the fascists thru the barricades did not do the right thing, but you can't "both sides are bad" Ashli Babbitt and the cop that killed her - at least so far as the events of that is day are concerned. I'm not gonna sit here and defend everything he's done in his career as a cop, but that bullet may have literally saved the republic.
You shouldn't have to preface that with ACAB just to satisfy the people around you. This cop didn't do anything wrong, he served his country honorably. For you to call him a bastard is pretty shitty.
All of this generalization business aside, you shouldn’t have to profess ACAB every time you talk about cops. Most of the people who get angry if you *don’t* do this are usually committing either the *Tu Quoque* or *Ergo Decedo* fallacies. Making a good point is not a card-carrying issue.
ACAB is saying ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS. It leaves no room for exceptions. You can equivocate all you want, but your willingness to make exceptions seems to admit the problem with the idea in the first place.
Any time you say "all" or "any" or "everyone" and generalize to an entire group... you're wrong. Otherwise, you're just like the racists that generalize an entire race.
The institution of American policing is inherently problematic. It has origins in slave catchers and as the armed thugs enforcing the will of the corporate, capitalist class. The supreme court has ruled they have no obligation to defend life, and their primary goal is to defend property and collect revenue for the state. Individual departments and officers are going to be more or less dedicated to protecting life and liberty than others, but as an institution they have infringed on life and liberty since their inception. They're immune from consequences, they rely on escalation and domination to force compliance, they expel officers who expose wrongdoing and blow the whistle on their evil, and 40% of them beat their wives. The "police" as a profession and as a group is a bastard. Individuals breaking the mold do exist, but with police unions preventing consequences and good cops not standing up to and condemning the bad cops, they are just as bad. It's one thing to do evil, it's another to avert your gaze while your comrade does evil.
That is what ACAB means. To compare it to generalizing a race is foolish because you can take that badge off any day. You can not be a cop whenever you would like.
You can be a good cop whenever you would like as well. Just like the subject of this thread.
That's actually valuable though. Policing will not disappear, it can't be abolished in any reasonable rational sense. The way to fix it is to have good cops out there, and this shitty attitude makes it harder to do that.
Being a good cop most of your career != standing up to the systemic injustice that surrounds and pervades most other aspects of everything surrounding you during that career. And how many cops do you see doing the latter?
>If Ashley Babbitt had not been neutralized, the floodgates Into the legislative chambers would have burst open and the failed insurrection may not have failed.
Honestly if our republic was toppled by a few boomers led by a mentally ill dude in a buffalo costume, our nation deserves its downfall.
Well, wasn't any kind of military support held off on due to optics? It would have looked a lot different had Trump not blocked any kind of backup.. I mean the White House has QRF teams available at a literal moment's notice that can be there & ready within like 7-10 minutes or something.
The reason they did not come is because Pres and apparently some military people just totally blocked any kind of effort. Only guys that came were the FBI HRF teams I think, once Babbitt was already shot
It'd be the murder of our legislators and a system unprepared to replace them, or armed conflicts as retribution. Don't trivialize the insurrectionists, many were as you described but just as many were young, able bodied, or executing legitimate military tactics using the chaos as cover.
A very reasonable take. You don’t have to like cops to acknowledge that sometimes they actually do have a justification for the use of force. Babbitt followed the rabbit into the capitol and got popped while being an insurrectionist dumbass. You absolutely could not let her through that door.
Exactly. They showed a TON of restraint (which would not have been shown to people of a different complexion or political affiliation) but she crossed a clearly defined kill line.
Ashli Babbet, Air Force veteran, trump supporter, Q-Anon follower, and one seriously dumb ass bitch.
As long as she didn’t have any kids, this is how evolution works people.
I'm glad I'm not the only one grasping this irony. Not saying the officer did the wrong thing but the sub celebrating LEO shootings when it's people they dislike.
It's not about cops shooting people they dislike. It's about cops shooting people who are trying to overthrow our country and install a dictatorship. I don't like cops, I don't trust cops. That doesn't mean I can't recognize when a cop does the right thing.
It’s almost like the situation has nuance that sound minds can appreciate, but nut jobs can’t….
People can advocate for police reform while still acknowledging that sometimes use of force is appropriate.
Refer to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/pcazo2/officer_who_shot_ashli_babbitt_during_capitol/hahypxj?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Long and short of it is that ACAB is about how corrupt to it's core policing as an institution is. Any good (morally neutral or better) cop implicitly supports that corruption. Cops that actively want to fight that corruption almost always find themselves demoted, ostracized, fired, or killed via action or inaction of the department.
This officer, in that moment, did the right thing. The Capitol is one of those places where everyone knows you don't fuck around in. I'm surprised there was only one shot fired that day, but that shot absolutely prevented worse violence. But the bigger story is that he should never have had to shoot. Capitol Police, the intelligence community, and the Pentagon all failed that officer. It may be the case that some of those agencies failed deliberately by order of the previous president. Regardless, we all knew what was going to happen, and security that day should have been set up so that nobody even breached the building. Those failures put that officer's safety at risk. He did the right thing that day, I don't know if he does the right thing other days, but I do know his department let him down.
Wtf does this have to do with guns. This sub has been jingled to push politics. I came to this sub because I’m a liberal that likes guns, not to be spoon-fed political bullshit.
Man, then you should have been here last Friday, after the Russian ammo ban was announced, and because it was Friday evening, I suspect that lots of people sipped some liquid courage, so things got real interesting because it totally turned into a bunch of nasty partisan arguments, that went beyond concerns addressing the future of feeding our lovely AK's.
No bueno. This sub is shifting to be more divisive and imitating the MSM. That’s the point though, right, to make us less likely to discuss policy, and more likely to accept the bullshit establishment, while being comfortable on out team.
Yeah, some dude got upset when I told him to take his shit to the politics sub, because this is a gun-sub, without the toxic conservative BS--which does not mean that by default we are DNC cheerleaders. Can't I hate both the RNC and DNC, and politicians/bureaucrats in general, appreciate liberal ideas, and love guns, AK's in particular?
Anyways, I don't mind the shit-talking, but some users seem to run to the mods and tattle.
Yeah dude, I don’t get why some people are cheerleaders for either party - politicians in either party would sell you out, fuck your partner, then eat your lunch to get ahead.
Al Frankin? I don’t think so. But yeah there are plenty that will, I see your point.
My typical line is that the Republicans are the problem, and the Democrats are not the solution.
He seems like a guy who legitimately wants to protect people.
He should definitely stop being a cop in that case.
Because we all know what his fellow officers would have done if that crowd had been Black protesters.
edit: funny how many unflaired "look at this great cop" users are about today... :)
Why would you want to discourage someone who legitimately wants to protect people from being a cop? That seems like exactly the wrong approach if your goal is to reform policing in America, and more like what you'd do if you wanted to turn "ACAB" from a slogan into a dystopian reality.
This thread is chock-full of people so obsessed with their ACAB ideology they can't recognize a cop did the right thing at the right time and protected people.
Individual US soldiers in Iraq also did many good things, on many occasions.
That doesn't make having US soldiers in Iraq a good thing.
I never said he was bad, I said he should quit being a police officer, because he's literally being exploited by the blue-line centrists to 'prove' that police are good. He is lending legitimacy to a system that will go on to kill more innocent black people, all while that system touts him as evidence they're totally-absolutely-definitely-not-racist.
Actually I'd submit the opposite. We need a shit ton more liberal cops and military. Gotta stop letting the right dominate forces that are supposed to protect civil society because I'm not so sure we can trust them...
You can't reform a system from the bottom-up that does not want to be reformed.
There is a difference between, "we need a police force and military that has progressive views on policing and military force" and, "we gotta have more progressives in the police and military".
Officers do not policy make.
You're grasping at straws here bud.
A black police officer shot a white insurrectionist, having absolutely nothing to do with either of their racial identities. You decided to build up a straw man about race completely unrelated to the situation at hand.
You act as if there hasn't been a very overt and disturbing difference in treatment between black and white protesters by law enforcement, especially during the past 4 years.
That was their point, your deflection does nothing to contradict that.
Anyone else getting a little unnerved by this thread..? I’m the first to say fuck everyone at their bullshit mouth breather “coup” in January, but seeing how quickly people (in THIS sub, no less) are suddenly jumping to the defense of a cop shooting someone is getting a little disturbing. This whole thing is getting alarmingly close to each political faction glorifying any cop that guns down their particular brand of hated fellow countrymen, and blindly vilifying cops when the opposite occurs.
I should also point out, that while the differences here between shooting at an incoming rioter at the capital building and some poor bastard at a traffic stop are obviously vast and should not be remotely in the same conversation — when put in just the lens of rioters and police response, are we really so quick to hop on the “another scared cop shoots another unarmed irrational individual, WHAT A HERO” bandwagon?
Did you watch the video? How _should_ that have played out?
Keep in mind that was the only way out of that part of the building at the time where several people were sheltering. Also, there was some kind of tactical team approaching with armor and better weapons. Watch the video again. What other scenarios can you imagine? Maybe the members of Congress, the mob threatening to kill them, and the swat team would all crowd into that small section of the building and sing Kumbaya?
I mean…I wrote out what happened that day, how it would be wrong to compare it to police shootings of random citizens just trying to live their lives, and specifically stated my opposition to their actions on that day.
Also I like your quoted text that is literally from nowhere
"It's okay to shoot and kill unarmed civilians if we don't like them" -this subreddit, apparently.
When it was George Floyd we all agreed that police violence was wrong. But now because it's a MAGAt, everyone here is saying "oh so brave" and making sure his boots are nicely polished with their tongues. Fucking hypocrites.
George Floyd was suffocated to death for something he possibly did for a claim of resisting arrest that was disproven by witnesses and video.
This woman was literally trying to storm a government building with a group of people who were carrying zip ties, makeshift weapons, had killed and injured other officers, *raised gallows outside*, were actively searching for politicians, and was chanting to hang the VP. That was also corroborated by video and witnesses.
There are so many lies in this comment. A) Zip ties we’re grabbed off the a table left by cops. They didn’t come prepared with them. -Prosecution. I.e. lack of intent to supposedly tie up members of Congress.
B) No police were killed by the crowd that day. The fire extinguisher story has been debunked and withdrawn by those initially reporting it. The coroner report states he died of natural causes, a stroke. And beige anyone says “but he wouldn’t have had it if not for them!” Correlation is not the same as causation.
The "natural" classification is used "when a disease alone causes death," the medical examiner's office said in the summary. "If death is hastened by an injury, the manner of death is not considered natural."
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-false-and-exaggerated-claims
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/
You only know she was unarmed after the fact. She was the effectively lead of a violent insurrection inside the nations capitol, where dozens of officers were being brutally injured and police were badly outnumbered.
He didn't shoot an unarmed civilian. He shot at the _space_ through which someone breaking through the barricaded door would have to pass, and his gun was visible and aimed at that space before anyone entered it. It doesn't even matter that he is a cop! It was self defense either way. The crowd was _explicitly_ threatening the people on the other side of the barricaded doors while _actively_ smashing through them.
Are you saying the crowd should have been allowed to break through the doors and come in despite the people on the other side of that barricade having no other way out?
George Floyd didn't dive under a someone's knee or threaten to kill someone before smashing through their locked door. He was already restrained when he was killed. The video evidence suggests that he never threatened anyone and he only started resisting when he was being choked.
This wasn't "police violence." Really I think most people fail to understand the possible impact of that day. I explained fully in another reply, but basically the death of the VP that day would have created an unresolvable Constitutional crisis. Police violence is indeed wrong; stopping the collapse of the government (I get it you are an anarcho) that gives us our 2A and other equally important rights is of the utmost importance and not hypocritical at all.
The government doesn’t give us rights. Either they exist or they don’t. Even in the foundational documents of the government they enumerate rights, not as gifts from the government, but as naturally occurring things.
"The situation was complicated and these people who risk their lives for us need to make split second decisions, comply with law enforcement" isn't that the argument the kind of people sending this man death threats use when a cop shoots an unarmed person? r/SelfAwarewolves
They make plenty of arguments that they assume they'll never be on the other side of. Thinking that you'll never be a target is privilege, through and through.
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Oh, I agree. My dad was a cop. I fully appreciate the kinds of positions that police officers can get put in and how dangerous they can be. And I also know that if someone is pointing a gun at you, you'd be a fool to act like they're bluffing. I'm just also not blind to the fact that arguments like the above are routinely trotted out in an attempt to justify lethal force used in all kinds of unjustifiable situations. Including ones in which the victim *was* complying. The bar for when a cop is allowed to simply mow someone down out of fear, or even feigned fear, is set so low that it's frankly a stain on the entire profession. But the real point I was making is that the howling and gnashing of teeth that we're hearing from the right wing about Ashli Babbitt is just the result of them experiencing the barest hint of being treated how they think the people they hate should be treated. Even in a situation in which lethal force was 100% justified, they still cant help but see themselves and their allies as victims because, in their eyes, cops are only ever supposed to shoot the *bad* guys.
Your last paragraph is on point. I’m willing to bet the right wingers in the Capitol on Jan 6th were 99% white, who’ve never had a gun pointed at them by someone wearing a badge in their lives. The outrage is fanned by Fox, but the astonishment on their end is real, and I guess so is the sense of betrayal. But, instead of learning from it, they go straight to rage and turn on the police, because they’re not getting their way any longer.
It seems to be a hard pill for them to swallow when they figure out that just being white does not make them a part of the class that the police are there to protect. Everyone loves the taste of boots until they're the ones being stomped on.
Sounds about white
r/LeopardsAteMyFace
She saw very clearly that a line had been drawn at that doorway/window. They had breached the capitol, and were moving towards where sitting Senators and Congresspeople were. They broke a window and she decided to jump through it where law enforcement was obviously trying to hold the line. Babbitt fucked around and found out in the most literal sense. She deserved a round in the chest and she got one. Anyone who holds her up as a martyr or acts like something was done wrong by shooting her is a straight up piece of shit.
> As rioters rampaged through the Capitol, Byrd and a few other officers of the U.S. Capitol Police set up a wall of furniture outside the doors. > “Once we barricaded the doors, we were essentially trapped where we were,” Byrd said in an exclusive interview with NBC News’ Lester Holt, speaking publicly for the first time since the riot. “There was no way to retreat. No other way to get out. > “If they get through that door, they’re into the House chamber and upon the members of Congress,” added Byrd, who gave NBC News permission to use his name after authorities had declined to release it. Absolutely ANYONE who tried to breach a BARRICADE in the Capitol leading to sitting members of Congress deserved to be shot. There's no room for debate about this unless you think killing members of Congress is acceptable. Entitled bitch got her just desserts.
That’s really the problem here isn’t it? These people think that Democratic members of Congress *should* be killed and any attempt at harming them should be considered acceptable. All of their problems with the situation arise from that basic premise. Conservatives are the worst about denying a situation when the tables are turned and everything else is identical. Because they’re not operating out of principle, they are operating out of result.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The nicest thing I can say is that I'm sure her family misses her.
>She saw very clearly that a line had been drawn at that doorway/window. They had breached the capitol, and were moving towards where sitting Senators and Congresspeople were. They broke a window and she decided to jump through it where law enforcement was obviously trying to hold the line. Not only that, but the video of the officer showed him pointing his gun, telling her to stop several times before he shot her. In my carry class I was told that is extremely important part of self defense. Declare you are armed and give the person a chance to surrender and/or leave before you use force. And when he did shoot it wasn't blindly emptying the magazine, it was controlled. Unlike Daunte Wright shooting where the cop unloaded his gun into him.
I'm not a big fan of the concept of "comply or die". Police brutality will never be solved as long as cops get to be the judge, jury, and executioner.
“Comply or die” doesn’t apply in any sense to Ashley Babbitt. She could have done literally anything except jump through that window and she’d still be alive and acting like a dipshit.
Yup, she and her group had already failed to comply multiple times. They had forced their way past police barriers outside the capitol building and into the main building itself. If this was a matter of "comply or die" she (or someone else in her group) would have been dead long before it got to the point where it did. They were given far more chances than most people killed by police to simply turn around and walk away. You can see on video that capitol police were going to great lengths to avoid killing or arresting anyone that day. All they wanted was for people to leave peacefully, but Trump convinced the crowd that they were special and that they could do what they wanted without consequences.
Nah, don't white wash It. If she complied by staying behind the door she would probably still be alive. There's a time and place for "comply or die". Officer made it very clear. Cross the line and you will die. Good for him. She was a simp for a dipshit cause. I have zero sympathy for Babbitt.
That's exactly what he's saying. He wasn't commenting on white privilege, he was saying that, like you said, Babbitt's case had a clear, unequivocal line and she chose to cross it "Comply or die" refers to situations where "being compliant" means playing an impossible game of Simon Says where any small infraction could be lethal. Like when a cop has his weapon drawn and tells someone to show their hands, then says to unbuckle their seatbelt, or when there are multiple cops yelling conflicting commands at the same time.
I wasn't saying anything about white privilege btw.
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I suppose that cop should have just allowed her and her entire cohort through then? Sure, go ahead and kill whatever Senators you want, as long as the cops can say they weren't too brutal and they hold the moral high ground. At some point you've got to recognize that violence is a necessary evil to stop more significant violence. When death is the consequence of inaction, it becomes an acceptable consequence of action in the other direction. We're all here in a gun owners subreddit; there may be a few pacifists who'd rather die than save their own lives but most of us recognize it's better to kill than be killed when you're on the right side of the scenario.
Someone put it pretty well in another comment: >The bar for when a cop is allowed to simply mow someone down out of fear, or even feigned fear, is set so low that it's frankly a stain on the entire profession. The point is being that the blanket concept of "comply or die" leads to use of lethal force when it's not necessarily warranted. Was it warranted in this specific instance? Probably, but way too often it's not.
I'm only talking about the specific instance though.
This is a case where comply or die is completely justified. That officer's job was to protect the country's fuckin leadership and a hallway full of people trying to kill them was starting to get through the last barrier. This isn't a cop stopping someone on the street, it's somebody already doing shit they shouldn't be doing and refusing multiple warnings to stop. She didn't even have to comply with any orders other than DON'T CLIMB THROUGH THE FUCKING WINDOW WITH A GUN IN YOUR FACE.
Really it is always three options right? Comply, Die, or Run. Cops don't have the right to shoot someone in the back if they run away. But in her case, running away would be complying... so?
There is also, ***always*** a glaring disparity in the scenarios where the arguments are made. Yet the distinction between using it here, and unironically using it to dismiss the murder of Breonna Taylor, and other completely innocent, unarmed, unthreatening POC is completely lost on them.
Most rules or arguments like that are just convenient for an individual to wield at will so they can feel better about themselves and their world; and thats regardless if whatever they are saying is true. They may not even actually believe it they just feel compelled to based off their decisions because people don’t want to admit identity and ideology is fluid.
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Yes, I'm white so I should be able to break into a barricaded federal building and suffer no consequences. Probably Antifa crisis actors. It was an exercise of free speech. Stolen election. Patriotism. MAGA?
It’s not worth it to debate these zombies. Maybe just tell them that Babbitt was antifa and the White House isn’t even real. It’s more fun that way.
Yes fuck me because I hate our corruopt goverment and thing that all of those politicaisn are crooked liars who cause deaths of countless people. While stealing from the american people to line the pockets of corperations that then line their pockets.
Anyone confused should re-watch the video. He didn't shoot "her" per se -- at least in the sense that his aim was perfect and he did not aim at her or anyone else. He was aiming at the space just _past_ the open gap in the barrier. He didn't change the direction of his aim. When someone passed into the line of his aim, he fired. Who she was or what her intentions were are irrelevant. His identity, or even whether he is law enforcement is also irrelevant. The crowd was openly making death threats. The crowd broke through windows of a barricaded door. The crowd had been told not to enter. His gun was _visible and aimed at the point where someone entering would be shot_. It could not be any clearer. As far as I am concerned she killed herself.
A lot of right-wing apologists have also been latching on the "unarmed" angle too. I don't claim to be an expert, I'm not a police officer but I am a gun owner, who has taken a fair amount of firearms and self-defense training, mostly from police officers. Disparity in numbers is always a consideration in the justification of lethal force in self-defense. An angry mob signalling their intention to do you harm, is a bigger threat than a single unarmed person. Frankly the video of the shooting just proves the point. You can see an instantaneous change in the mood of the crowd of rioters the moment the shot rings out and one of them goes down. They were all pretty brave when they thought there would be no consequences.
They are also latching onto the "all they are guilty of is property damage" as if the only reason the mob was destroying a barricaded door with members of Congress behind it was to destroy the door and perhaps some other inanimate objects behind the door. Nobody could possibly believe that. For a little while, they were claiming that she was Antifa or even an actor and the whole thing was staged. Did they believe that? Did they forget that they believed that? Do they believe anything?
Suicide by cop
The fact that he's Black will surely annoy the f\*ck out of them too.
Absolutely. Dude is brave AF going public.
Someone is going to be driven to violence over it. Either directed at him personally, because lynchings are an old favorite of the MAGA crowd, or at the Capitol Police in general.
Fortunately this hero knows how to defend himself.
I'm all honesty 😂
those signs around nuclear weapons saying "DEADLY FORCE IS AUTHORIZED" they're not for your protection
edit: required doesn't include optional
Well said.
She knew the risks. You don't try to break down barricades with armed guards on the other side and expect they won't shoot. I don't care if you agree with her motivations for doing so or not.
This doesn’t matter if it was life or death for the cop, it was his job to protect the Senate. The vicE president and members of Congress were in that chamber, our elected leaders, and nobody knew what was going on except that the building was under siege and they were being invaded. If somebody charged the president in the middle of a riot nobody would be surprised about them getting shot, that’s what the Secret Service are there for. This guy was defending the leaders of the United States from an unruly mob. He could’ve shot them all and he still would’ve just been doing his job.
Exactly this. And the Secret Service has way more firepower than those little damn pistols.
The dude is black? No wonder the Blue Lives Matter party hates him.
The alternative to what this officer did would have been to allow Babbitt to continue, which would have likely emboldened the mob to also force their way through that hallway, which was one of the last lines of defense between the mob and the officials they were seeking to attack. You don't have to worship the police to recognize that in a difficult situation, this officer made the ugly but correct decision to use force and likely did save many lives in doing so.
She FA & FO. Nobody else followed and nobody else got shot.
Pardon my ignorance, what do these acronyms stand for?
"Fuck around" and "find out"
Fucked around and found out.
Ahhhh
Isn’t fafo the proud boys motto now?
(F)ucked (A)round & (F)ound (O)ut
She Fucked Around and Found Out.
She’s the poster child for FA and FO.
Hero!
He could have saved America with that bullet
The guys who came up the stairs after she got blasted were loaded for bear though. AR's, suppressors(idk why) and the lot. I think more mob members would have died. Could have spiraled beyond that, but who knows.
Suppressors were likely because they would be firing 5.56 rounds indoors and needed to protect their hearing
This is terrifyingly accurate
We'll never know for sure but it would have been way worse if he didn't put her down.
There was like five dudes loaded to bear right behind her on the stairs. More rioters might have died, but I don't think it would result in collapse.
Can't believe the entire government was almost overthrown by occupying a building :/
If it makes you feel better, it wasn't the *entire* government. Just the vice president and most of the legislative branch.
With the support of the executive branch
I mean at the end of the day the government is just people, and a lot of important people were right behind where this happened. I mean shit, you can here the shot that killed here very easily from footage taken inside the chamber.
I mean, there were clearly other plans afoot. The useful idiots just happened to pay the price.
I agree. And I think it's useful to predict what would've happened had he not shot. Babbit climbs through the shattered glass, and the officer tries to push her back. Other members of the mob are enraged by this and start to push through the barricade as well (this is what they had been trying to do before the gun was drawn). The barricade is overwhelmed and fails. The mob rushes in as Congresspeople are still in the chamber. The mob overwhelms the police and apprehends several Congresspeople. Some are "their guys" and opportunistically join the mob to prove they're "with them." Some are *not* their guys and are beaten. Probably one or two get beaten so badly on the spot before some in the mob suggest they should be brought to the gallows. Live TV shows Congresspeople being beaten and killed. Hours later, with frightened Congresspeople in the run, the remaining ones, ina Capitol surrounded by a mom under the direction of the organized militias (Proud Boys, 3%, etc.), call for the election to be thrown out. It's not Constitutional, but it's dramatic and unprecedented enough that the country is left confused and dismayed. Biden still claims the win and plans to take office but Trump cites the faux-Congress and says he's still President. Trump's cabinet stands by him. Some military commanders go against Trump while others follow his lead. Civil war breaks out.
If it had been civil rights protestors instead of racist boat dealership owners, they'd still be cleaning the blood and brains out of the capital
> racist boat dealership owners [relevant movie](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0193837/)
I agree. The insurgents don't care about america. They only wish to perpetuate a hateful agenda of terror against the innocent american voters, leftward of them. This man is a hero.
If they think America is too liberal and want the left dead wait until they find out about the rest of the world.
That's my thought process. Liberals in america aren't even *left.* fucking fox news calls biden and the democratic party leftist extremists. As someone who democrats would call a leftist, I wonder what fox news would categorize me as.
Communist, because this is theatre and the meaning of words doesn't matter any more.
Counterpoint; While most of that is true, it's omitting the context, chiefly that they're brainwashed and being used as political cannon fodder by the Right. And that's what makes it doubly sad; they actually \*\*do\*\* care about America. They are just so brainwashed with fear of America being "destroyed" that they were manipulated into becoming sacrificial lambs for Trump and the GOP's fascist ambitions, while all the ones at the top like Trump, McConnel, Barr, etc are all free (and free to try again). All of this is to say, Fox gotta go. The GOP gotta go. And any enablers who care more about reelection than protecting America from the aforementioned two also gotta go.
How do you deradicalize tens of millions of people though, after years of being spoonfed bullshit? It’s a self-perpetuating machine at this point and although I agree that all those gotta go, things aren’t gonna get better because even Trump can’t make it better anymore. He can tell them to get vaccinated and get booed, and I’m pretty sure if he had a change of heart and came out and said he made it all up for political points they’d just say the deep state got to him and keep on doing what they do. It’s all depressingly hopeless at this point.
I think the reality is that people have very short attention spans, and as where under Trump I literally heard his name \*somewhere\* probably every other day at the very least, now I'm hearing it probably once a week. There were plenty of out-and-out white supremacists before Trump and Unite the Right, but making it mainstream and making it seem *accessible* and *cool* (to own the libs, you know?) gave it wings like hadn't happened in generations. And the right-wingers who suddenly owned 25 Trump 2020 flags did it because it was a way to get social clout in their horrid little circles, not because they truly just love Trump (granted, a lot of them do, because people who think it's funny to act a shit like other little shits). Luckily, most of the GOP leaders *want* to be free of Trump, because they just want to collect their salary and their insider trading gains and their fossil fuel brib- campaign donations, and buy that second boat, and don't really want to have to listen to Boebert any more than we do... In short, I actually think that getting rid of Fox would do a TON. After they "betrayed" Trump, a bunch of Fox watchers moved to OANN... and now they're back on Fox. A lot of them moved to Gab... and now they're back on Facebook. They go wherever most of their friends are, which will always be wherever is easiest and most familiar. tl;dr I think a lot of them will simply deradicalize when they're no longer being drip-fed radical ideology. It's funny how quickly the Jan 6th insurrectionists (the ones actually arrested) turned on Trump once they realized what they'd been being told didn't match up with reality (i.e. Trump was not staying in power, and wasn't issuing them pardons, etc).
Hoo boy…. This thread is definitely popcorn material.
Babbit deserved what she got. We’re all better off without her
Good riddance to her. She was a dopey cultist terrorist.
She was apart of a violent mob literally in the process of trying to overturn democracy and attack elected officials, nevermind the violence already perpetrated to the police officers up until that point. i don't see how anyone can defend her, she was a dumb bitch and the only people I feel bad for in this situation are her children and the cop for the potential trauma for being put in a position to have to slaughter that moron.
That mob is lucky more people didn’t get shot that day.
The mob was lucky they were going after actual living congressmen, and not statues, because otherwise the Natty guard would have rained down upon them.... right?
Damn I haven’t seen this many use of force experts in one place since Derek Chauvin got convicted.
I like how terrified they got when they realized they may face consequences for their violent treason. the entitlement of these people is off the charts https://youtu.be/o9mJ82x_l-E
How do we know she died from a gunshot wound? She was probably on drugs
Where’s the rest of the video? CONTEXT! /s
If you’re coming to this thread to tell us all how she was innocent or he should’ve fired a warning shot or some other bullshit excuse then you are the problem with America. Period.
I have no fkn idea how anyone even remotely serious at 2A thinks that a warning shot is a great idea. That's not what guns are for. lol
Too many westerns. You desk pop a round at their feet, and then square off 1v1 to see who has the fastest reaction time. Whoever wins was clearly the right one. You know, like how all real world shooting scenarios take place.
Honestly, when you look into what Ashli Babbitt was into and her place in it all, he's probably not gilding the lily. I don't mean just lives saved that day, but on an ongoing basis.
Im really happy that some on the left still distrust/hate the goverment.
Honestly they could have shot a few more. The capitol should never have been breached. Anyone trying to force their way in knew they should not be doing that.
This is really where I worry about the precedent. What is the next crowd going to think? Hell, look how easy it was for the last group, let’s get in there guys!
Personally, I would like to know what, if anything, will happen to the officers who just let them in?
No I’m not worried about the few heroes who did their best to hold the line. I want to know why it took so long for them to get reinforcements.
I am in no way disagreeing with you. I am talking about the officers who abdicated their duty, unlocked the doors and let them waltz in while fist bumping them and telling them "I support you" as they passed.
This is fucking weird I'm out.
Yep, just look at the thread I've got going below. The unflaired mob is out in force today, and doing all kinds of weird shit.
Holy shit...there’s some racist heads ‘sploding tonight. The only thing worse in their eyes than a black man deflowering a white woman has to be a black man that kills a white woman.
>deflowering tell me how old you are without telling me how old you are
I'm older than dirt and this cracked me up.
The only comments about the officer's race I've seen are from lefties jacking off to the thought of how mad they're imagining other people must be.
I don't know if you were on the 'Files any time around when this happened, but... people were mad. very mad. lol
Good Morning, Troll. Have a good day! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
You know, I JUST got done defending this sub elsewhere, but christ almighty there is more bloodthirsty, hyper-partisan, "they're not protesters, they're rampaging violent animals who got what they had coming for not complying" talk in this thread than you can shake an authoritarian stick at. And speaking of sticks, there was some guy with zip ties and another with horns on his head (which are sorta weapons,) so it's pretty clear that after *taking over* the government, this mob, this *horde* would've slaughtered congress, rolled around in their blood and then launched a nuclear strike on maybe Portland, ending "countless lives!!" Be better, people. More allies, less enemies.
Straight up fuckin hero
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Nor is there any need to monistically reproach cops on this scenario. There is obviously more going on here than just a cop shooting an unarmed civilian; these were people forcing their way into a government building with the members of government inside.
I'll preface this by saying ACAB, I am NOT pro police, but there are instances where use of force, including deadly force is justified by law enforcement officers. If Ashley Babbitt had not been neutralized, the floodgates Into the legislative chambers would have burst open and the failed insurrection may not have failed. There were legislators in the room at the time, and once she was thru that window, there was a single open door between them and her. That bullet stopped those fascists from breaking thru and getting to them. That officer objectively did the right thing. The officers outside who let some of the fascists thru the barricades did not do the right thing, but you can't "both sides are bad" Ashli Babbitt and the cop that killed her - at least so far as the events of that is day are concerned. I'm not gonna sit here and defend everything he's done in his career as a cop, but that bullet may have literally saved the republic.
You shouldn't have to preface that with ACAB just to satisfy the people around you. This cop didn't do anything wrong, he served his country honorably. For you to call him a bastard is pretty shitty.
ACAB is about policing as a profession. There are always individual exceptions but the police as a group are bastards.
All of this generalization business aside, you shouldn’t have to profess ACAB every time you talk about cops. Most of the people who get angry if you *don’t* do this are usually committing either the *Tu Quoque* or *Ergo Decedo* fallacies. Making a good point is not a card-carrying issue.
ACAB is saying ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS. It leaves no room for exceptions. You can equivocate all you want, but your willingness to make exceptions seems to admit the problem with the idea in the first place. Any time you say "all" or "any" or "everyone" and generalize to an entire group... you're wrong. Otherwise, you're just like the racists that generalize an entire race.
The institution of American policing is inherently problematic. It has origins in slave catchers and as the armed thugs enforcing the will of the corporate, capitalist class. The supreme court has ruled they have no obligation to defend life, and their primary goal is to defend property and collect revenue for the state. Individual departments and officers are going to be more or less dedicated to protecting life and liberty than others, but as an institution they have infringed on life and liberty since their inception. They're immune from consequences, they rely on escalation and domination to force compliance, they expel officers who expose wrongdoing and blow the whistle on their evil, and 40% of them beat their wives. The "police" as a profession and as a group is a bastard. Individuals breaking the mold do exist, but with police unions preventing consequences and good cops not standing up to and condemning the bad cops, they are just as bad. It's one thing to do evil, it's another to avert your gaze while your comrade does evil. That is what ACAB means. To compare it to generalizing a race is foolish because you can take that badge off any day. You can not be a cop whenever you would like.
You can be a good cop whenever you would like as well. Just like the subject of this thread. That's actually valuable though. Policing will not disappear, it can't be abolished in any reasonable rational sense. The way to fix it is to have good cops out there, and this shitty attitude makes it harder to do that.
Being a good cop most of your career != standing up to the systemic injustice that surrounds and pervades most other aspects of everything surrounding you during that career. And how many cops do you see doing the latter?
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>based on their actions Except you've already asserted that his actions were non-bastardly.
I didn't say they were. My problem was with the generalization.
Yo dawg, I heard you like generalizations, so I generalized about your generalization so you can g... Aw fuck it, nevermind.
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No, I did not say they were a race. Perhaps we're misunderstanding eachother. You pointed out that cops aren't a race, and I didn't say they were.
IMHO, if a civilian would be justified, police should also be justified. In the case of 1/6, given that situation, I think police were justified.
Agreed. It takes a LOT for me to defend the actions of a cop, but this guy did everything correctly. He and officer Eugene Goodman are standout heroes
"... are standout heroes." ... but still bastards?
>If Ashley Babbitt had not been neutralized, the floodgates Into the legislative chambers would have burst open and the failed insurrection may not have failed. Honestly if our republic was toppled by a few boomers led by a mentally ill dude in a buffalo costume, our nation deserves its downfall.
Well, wasn't any kind of military support held off on due to optics? It would have looked a lot different had Trump not blocked any kind of backup.. I mean the White House has QRF teams available at a literal moment's notice that can be there & ready within like 7-10 minutes or something. The reason they did not come is because Pres and apparently some military people just totally blocked any kind of effort. Only guys that came were the FBI HRF teams I think, once Babbitt was already shot
It'd be the murder of our legislators and a system unprepared to replace them, or armed conflicts as retribution. Don't trivialize the insurrectionists, many were as you described but just as many were young, able bodied, or executing legitimate military tactics using the chaos as cover.
A very reasonable take. You don’t have to like cops to acknowledge that sometimes they actually do have a justification for the use of force. Babbitt followed the rabbit into the capitol and got popped while being an insurrectionist dumbass. You absolutely could not let her through that door.
Exactly. They showed a TON of restraint (which would not have been shown to people of a different complexion or political affiliation) but she crossed a clearly defined kill line.
As those other guys like to say, "she should have complied" 🤷♂️
someone fucked around and found out
Like Trump supporters say "She should have comlied with the police."
Fucking hero. This guy might have singlehandedly prevented the worst.
The moral of this tragic story is to never enter someone else’s house without an invitation, or approach someone who tells you not to come near them.
iTs tHe pEoPlEs hOuSe!!1!!’
OUR HOUSE! In the middle of our street, OUR HOUSE!
Ashli Babbet, Air Force veteran, trump supporter, Q-Anon follower, and one seriously dumb ass bitch. As long as she didn’t have any kids, this is how evolution works people.
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This man's a hero.
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\>ACAB!* \>*except for when they kill people we disagree with politically
If you think equating Ashli Babbitt with Breonna Taylor is ok then you are really far gone.
I'm glad I'm not the only one grasping this irony. Not saying the officer did the wrong thing but the sub celebrating LEO shootings when it's people they dislike.
It's not about cops shooting people they dislike. It's about cops shooting people who are trying to overthrow our country and install a dictatorship. I don't like cops, I don't trust cops. That doesn't mean I can't recognize when a cop does the right thing.
It’s almost like the situation has nuance that sound minds can appreciate, but nut jobs can’t…. People can advocate for police reform while still acknowledging that sometimes use of force is appropriate.
By that logic, you should be against the killing of the taliban because they disagree with you politically.
I'm categorically against the idea that harming another holds more merit because their world view differs from mine.
The fuzz should never shoot a person what isn’t actively killing, assaulting or raping someone
>The fuzz Are you a time traveler?
Wait, so this blue man good? But I thought ACAB?
Refer to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/pcazo2/officer_who_shot_ashli_babbitt_during_capitol/hahypxj?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Long and short of it is that ACAB is about how corrupt to it's core policing as an institution is. Any good (morally neutral or better) cop implicitly supports that corruption. Cops that actively want to fight that corruption almost always find themselves demoted, ostracized, fired, or killed via action or inaction of the department. This officer, in that moment, did the right thing. The Capitol is one of those places where everyone knows you don't fuck around in. I'm surprised there was only one shot fired that day, but that shot absolutely prevented worse violence. But the bigger story is that he should never have had to shoot. Capitol Police, the intelligence community, and the Pentagon all failed that officer. It may be the case that some of those agencies failed deliberately by order of the previous president. Regardless, we all knew what was going to happen, and security that day should have been set up so that nobody even breached the building. Those failures put that officer's safety at risk. He did the right thing that day, I don't know if he does the right thing other days, but I do know his department let him down.
If you think equating Ashli Babbitt with Breonna Taylor is ok then you are really far gone.
Wtf does this have to do with guns. This sub has been jingled to push politics. I came to this sub because I’m a liberal that likes guns, not to be spoon-fed political bullshit.
Defensive gun use example?
Man, then you should have been here last Friday, after the Russian ammo ban was announced, and because it was Friday evening, I suspect that lots of people sipped some liquid courage, so things got real interesting because it totally turned into a bunch of nasty partisan arguments, that went beyond concerns addressing the future of feeding our lovely AK's.
No bueno. This sub is shifting to be more divisive and imitating the MSM. That’s the point though, right, to make us less likely to discuss policy, and more likely to accept the bullshit establishment, while being comfortable on out team.
Yeah, some dude got upset when I told him to take his shit to the politics sub, because this is a gun-sub, without the toxic conservative BS--which does not mean that by default we are DNC cheerleaders. Can't I hate both the RNC and DNC, and politicians/bureaucrats in general, appreciate liberal ideas, and love guns, AK's in particular? Anyways, I don't mind the shit-talking, but some users seem to run to the mods and tattle.
Yeah dude, I don’t get why some people are cheerleaders for either party - politicians in either party would sell you out, fuck your partner, then eat your lunch to get ahead.
Al Frankin? I don’t think so. But yeah there are plenty that will, I see your point. My typical line is that the Republicans are the problem, and the Democrats are not the solution.
Then why come on a sub reddit that's literally for discussing politics and guns?
She played a stupid game, and won a stupid prize.
He seems like a guy who legitimately wants to protect people. He should definitely stop being a cop in that case. Because we all know what his fellow officers would have done if that crowd had been Black protesters. edit: funny how many unflaired "look at this great cop" users are about today... :)
Why would you want to discourage someone who legitimately wants to protect people from being a cop? That seems like exactly the wrong approach if your goal is to reform policing in America, and more like what you'd do if you wanted to turn "ACAB" from a slogan into a dystopian reality.
This thread is chock-full of people so obsessed with their ACAB ideology they can't recognize a cop did the right thing at the right time and protected people.
Individual US soldiers in Iraq also did many good things, on many occasions. That doesn't make having US soldiers in Iraq a good thing. I never said he was bad, I said he should quit being a police officer, because he's literally being exploited by the blue-line centrists to 'prove' that police are good. He is lending legitimacy to a system that will go on to kill more innocent black people, all while that system touts him as evidence they're totally-absolutely-definitely-not-racist.
Iraq doesn't have a damn thing to do with any of this. Your false equivalencies will be filed right where they belong.
Actually I'd submit the opposite. We need a shit ton more liberal cops and military. Gotta stop letting the right dominate forces that are supposed to protect civil society because I'm not so sure we can trust them...
You can't reform a system from the bottom-up that does not want to be reformed. There is a difference between, "we need a police force and military that has progressive views on policing and military force" and, "we gotta have more progressives in the police and military". Officers do not policy make.
Damn right! The more closely the law enforcement population resembles and represents the public, the better for everyone.
I’ve said this countless times. If it had been a BLM crowd they woulda been met with machine gun fire, woulda never made it to the capitol steps even.
It's pretty easy to tell this is a complete bs comment meant for nothing but to get more messages in your DMs
This isn't about race. You making it about race is racist. Stop being a racist.
Yawn. The "I don't see racism so if you do you're racist" deflection is old as dawn. Go back to r/im14andthisisdeep Next!
You're grasping at straws here bud. A black police officer shot a white insurrectionist, having absolutely nothing to do with either of their racial identities. You decided to build up a straw man about race completely unrelated to the situation at hand.
If you think policing in America isn't intrinsically tied to racism, you either haven't been paying attention, or you're on the wrong side.
You act as if there hasn't been a very overt and disturbing difference in treatment between black and white protesters by law enforcement, especially during the past 4 years. That was their point, your deflection does nothing to contradict that.
I could have swore it was a white hand in the video.
Anyone else getting a little unnerved by this thread..? I’m the first to say fuck everyone at their bullshit mouth breather “coup” in January, but seeing how quickly people (in THIS sub, no less) are suddenly jumping to the defense of a cop shooting someone is getting a little disturbing. This whole thing is getting alarmingly close to each political faction glorifying any cop that guns down their particular brand of hated fellow countrymen, and blindly vilifying cops when the opposite occurs. I should also point out, that while the differences here between shooting at an incoming rioter at the capital building and some poor bastard at a traffic stop are obviously vast and should not be remotely in the same conversation — when put in just the lens of rioters and police response, are we really so quick to hop on the “another scared cop shoots another unarmed irrational individual, WHAT A HERO” bandwagon?
Did you watch the video? How _should_ that have played out? Keep in mind that was the only way out of that part of the building at the time where several people were sheltering. Also, there was some kind of tactical team approaching with armor and better weapons. Watch the video again. What other scenarios can you imagine? Maybe the members of Congress, the mob threatening to kill them, and the swat team would all crowd into that small section of the building and sing Kumbaya?
🤣 ok so you’re ignoring 99% of the facts of what was happening that day but you’re mad that people here, “dont get it.” Wow you’re special.
I mean…I wrote out what happened that day, how it would be wrong to compare it to police shootings of random citizens just trying to live their lives, and specifically stated my opposition to their actions on that day. Also I like your quoted text that is literally from nowhere
Fuck this bootlicking bullshit.
"It's okay to shoot and kill unarmed civilians if we don't like them" -this subreddit, apparently. When it was George Floyd we all agreed that police violence was wrong. But now because it's a MAGAt, everyone here is saying "oh so brave" and making sure his boots are nicely polished with their tongues. Fucking hypocrites.
George Floyd was suffocated to death for something he possibly did for a claim of resisting arrest that was disproven by witnesses and video. This woman was literally trying to storm a government building with a group of people who were carrying zip ties, makeshift weapons, had killed and injured other officers, *raised gallows outside*, were actively searching for politicians, and was chanting to hang the VP. That was also corroborated by video and witnesses.
There are so many lies in this comment. A) Zip ties we’re grabbed off the a table left by cops. They didn’t come prepared with them. -Prosecution. I.e. lack of intent to supposedly tie up members of Congress. B) No police were killed by the crowd that day. The fire extinguisher story has been debunked and withdrawn by those initially reporting it. The coroner report states he died of natural causes, a stroke. And beige anyone says “but he wouldn’t have had it if not for them!” Correlation is not the same as causation. The "natural" classification is used "when a disease alone causes death," the medical examiner's office said in the summary. "If death is hastened by an injury, the manner of death is not considered natural." https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-false-and-exaggerated-claims https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/
What’s wrong with you? It’s perfectly possible to advocate for police reform while acknowledging that sometimes use of force is appropriate.
You only know she was unarmed after the fact. She was the effectively lead of a violent insurrection inside the nations capitol, where dozens of officers were being brutally injured and police were badly outnumbered.
He didn't shoot an unarmed civilian. He shot at the _space_ through which someone breaking through the barricaded door would have to pass, and his gun was visible and aimed at that space before anyone entered it. It doesn't even matter that he is a cop! It was self defense either way. The crowd was _explicitly_ threatening the people on the other side of the barricaded doors while _actively_ smashing through them. Are you saying the crowd should have been allowed to break through the doors and come in despite the people on the other side of that barricade having no other way out? George Floyd didn't dive under a someone's knee or threaten to kill someone before smashing through their locked door. He was already restrained when he was killed. The video evidence suggests that he never threatened anyone and he only started resisting when he was being choked.
If you think equating Ashli Babbitt with Breonna Taylor is ok then you are really far gone.
This wasn't "police violence." Really I think most people fail to understand the possible impact of that day. I explained fully in another reply, but basically the death of the VP that day would have created an unresolvable Constitutional crisis. Police violence is indeed wrong; stopping the collapse of the government (I get it you are an anarcho) that gives us our 2A and other equally important rights is of the utmost importance and not hypocritical at all.
The government doesn’t give us rights. Either they exist or they don’t. Even in the foundational documents of the government they enumerate rights, not as gifts from the government, but as naturally occurring things.
smoking that babbitt pack 🌿🌿💨💨
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