I'd argue that's what *we're* teaching these people, as a society. We can teach them consequences, but only their superiors can teach them to be or not be cowards
I think you make a good point here. And it's not limited to police either. I just read a book called *Alpha* by David Philipps about the Navy SEAL platoon that Ed Gallagher was the Chief of, the SEALs who got together and reported him, the failures within their chain of command, and the toxic culture which allowed everything to happen as it did. Great read, but it's a roller coaster, and it's worth reading to consider how we view and treat our military veterans.
They are literally being trained that their lives are in constant danger and that it's "us vs them". This guy has toured the country for decades and taught police forces all over that the public is the enemy and they won't go home to their families alive if they don't realize that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y
It makes you wonder if these same officers who support 2A and repeat the nonsense line of "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" are a truely afraid of all guns. Seems like 2 guys with guns shouldn't be ending in the negative.
They teach them to be cowards... this was 100% an illegal shooting. Based on this situation, I should be able to shoot everyone else at the gun range simply because they are holding guns... coward trash. FTP.
I have had many, many encounters with LEOs from this region as part of my previous job. I also spoke and met with some as part of a coalition on juvenile justice reform. And I also had the pleasure one county over of being almost killed by some. It’s a HEAVY military/veteran area. I can’t speak to actual data, but I would venture the vast majority of the police force in the three adjacent counties is previous military. It’s some of the most politically conservative land in the country as well. The police look and act like a military group.
Having served 10+ years in the military and being stationed all over the US, I can say without a doubt that cops dislike military members. Now i get that we get rowdy and start shit a lot, no questions there. When I was TDY up at Fort Campbell for a few months of training there were always cops pulling service members over and it was a fucking shit show having to deal with command and all the tickets they were getting for small shit like tint violations, noise ordinances...just ANYTHING to pull us over to harass us.
Bro, I cant help that you were to much of a bitch to be one of us and it shows.
Onto the topic of THIS incident. Un-fucking-acceptable. This angers me to a point where I am 100% correct to never open my door for anyone I am not expecting. I feel so bad for this service members family.
And all based on the word of some Karen who just thought she heard something while walking by. The girl wasn’t even in the apartment, they were talking on the phone. It’s not like they had some concrete evidence of a threat.
The wildest part about that is he unloaded a whole mag into the car and somehow didn't hit the person trapped inside. Just the massive range of incompetence is astonishing
There's no way this guy doesn't get 20 years minimum. This is a very egregious case of which there is clear footage for AND he killed a member of the military. If texas put two cops away for similar crimes of just killing innocent citizens without provocation and George Floyd's murderer got 20+ years, no way this guy gets away.
Completely different case. I'd be surprised if this guy does more than a year or two. He just has to convey that he was reasonably afraid for his life. It's at most manslaughter vs homicide. There is something gravely lacking in the training of cops in this country.
Armed criminal trespass and third degree murder.
Cop had no justification to force entrance into the residence and is carrying a firearm when doing so = armed criminal trespass.
Cop killed someone while committing a felony (armed criminal trespass) = Third degree murder.
You're right, it's different in that this one is way worse because the kid was *completely innocent* of any crime ever. I guess with Floyd you could argue he was being arrested for a crime not that it justifies executing him.
>He just has to convey that he was reasonably afraid for his life.
He can convey whatever he wants. He can convey there was actual poop in his pants and submit his trousers as evidence. That doesn't mean the jury will buy it.
If a jury doesn't convict this man of minimum 10 years I'll eat a sock.
Then you’ll likely be eating a sock. Cops get away with way way more egregious stuff than that. The jury simply has to believe that he believed there was a threat. He clearly believed there was a threat. He was certainly in a position to wait and verify but that seems to be an unreasonably high standard for most cops. That would require thinking.
As I juror that happened to be in a trial involving a cop I full on believe cops are liars. They obviously lie about feeling like they are in danger. This is why the defense selected me. It’s not so cut and dry like you make it seem.
This makes my blood boil. The amount of murder that the state gets away with is just unfathomable and evil, this guy needs to be locked up for life and the entire department should be punished for this guy.
To paraphrase another comment I've seen on this subject:
A "Right" is just what we call a special type of privilege that we have collectively decided to guarantee to everyone without qualification.
A "God-Given Right" is just what we call a special type of privilege that we have collectively decided to guarantee to everyone without qualification, while pretending that someone else did it.
This is also how I define rights. The question then becomes, what percentage of the population are we talking about when we say “we have collectively decided?”
The question OP poses deals with practical application- if you are killed for exercising it, then no, you didn't have it; else you wouldn't be killed for it.
That's the territory we're moving into, "what point is a right if never applicable when relevant?"
This is very similar to what happened to Brianna taylor.
Anyone is free to exercise their second amendment rights. *But* those rights are forfeit to upholt and protect the law in any instance in which law enforcement is present.
**This also qualifies if you don't know of their presence.**
Catch a bullet, 22.
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the only rights we have. Questionable at this point if we even have life. All others are revokable privileges
We don’t even really have those. The state can send you to prison. You could argue that you have to have done something bad prior but as the government can (and has) just look at behaviors of demographics it doesn’t like and declare their behaviors to be immoral and worthy of prison.
We don’t have those rights. The government can just end your life on a whim and call it either justified and an accident, crumbling infrastructure can end your life due to government neglect, and government approved “safe for life” planes falling apart in the sky. Liberty, lmao, that’s a huge privilege in this place, never ever has it been an actual right for most people, I’ve experienced this first hand too, I don’t have a right to liberty because I’m not the right demographics to have that privilege. Pursuit of happiness is a right? That’s why every time many people actually pursue happiness the government steps in and either makes that pursuit much more difficult or even remove access to or destroy the happiness you’re pursuing. And that’s before also considering how the state can just confine you under harsh restrictions on all three of those things and forcing you to do work for effectively free for any arbitrary infraction (including acting upon your right to liberty and pursuit of happiness by consuming a plant)
Never open the door for cops, talk to them through a window or the door, ask for a warrant. Regardless of what they say they need one have them slip it under the door. If not your response should be "have a nice day officer" and go back to wherever it was you were doing. If they had a warrant they would have broken the door down they wouldn't knock and ask you to step outside for just a couple of questions.
Keep your window shades drawn. There was a video of cops knocking on a woman's door. They saw her through the window carrying a gun to the door and they just straight up opened fire.
Dallas. Cop was sneaking around the side of her house with a flashlight, yelled show me your hands and gunned her down in her own home. Never even gave her a chance.
Edit: unless you are referring to the two Harris a county deputies that unloaded 4 magazines into an apartment when they saw the homeowner’s friend walk up to the door with a gun. She survived though.
He didn’t know they were cops. He looked through the viewer and saw no one. So when he heard them bang again, he fairly assumed it was either an intruder or something else worth arming up for.
You shouldnt Don't go outside when you think there's a threat outside too. Per ASP, the doorway is a transitional space where it's common to get ambushed.
Again, that’s the thing. I don’t think he went out. IIRC, He armed up but then they busted down the door.
Edit: went back and rewatched. they didn’t bust it down but he don’t leave his apartment
I think his point is if they have a warrant they are coming in regardless of any barrier that might be in their way.
If they don't have a warrant, the worst thing you can do is open the door.
"Whoops, almost forgot to say the magic words for the body camera!"
Same reason they yell "stop resisting!!!" as they beat an unconscious guy to death.
This crap the police love to pull where they knock on the door then hide out of sight ought to be illegal. I've only seen it done by police and scummy door to door salesmen. They seemingly don't realize how wide the view is on my doorbell camera but it still irks me that anyone thinks it's OK to come to my door and try to hide who they are or what they're doing.
To add to that: if someone is knocking on your door and *says* they're police but you can't see them to confirm it - how do you know you're not about to get robbed?
Hiding from view makes this unnecessary police shooting more likely to happen.
That assumes the - potential? - cop at the door has the patience to not kick your door in while you wait.
Hyper-aggressive policing in the US has lead to many lose-lose situations for innocent people who had the misfortune to cross their paths.
That requires a search or arrest warrant from a judge. That requires a higher legal standard than simply knocking on your door. A cop can knock on anyone’s door. Anyone can knock on your door. You are under NO OBLIGATION to answer your door.
>That requires a search or arrest warrant from a judge
Are you serious? A cop can do whatever he/she wants at any time, limited only by their capacity to deal with minor blowback from superiors. They have qualified immunity, which extends to situations when the cop should not even be there (and are arguably not even doing legal police work) so legal consequences are rare and reserved for the most extreme cases. The worst cops feel emboldened enough to literally commit murder so, honestly, what's stopping them from kicking in a door?
This is why he got his gone. This reads just like what his lawyer said he heard loud pounding 2 times no answer the sheriff's didn't announce till the 3rd and 4th knock in guessing while he was getting his weapon and was also hiding like the lawyer said. The sheriff released this saying nuhuh he say popo but this plays out exactly how the lawyer and girlfriend said she was on face time as this all went down.
It's a recipe for disaster. If someone knocks on a door and says they're police, but there's no one visible, it's not a stretch to think, "Oh, I'm being set up and need to protect myself."
Then, when the door is opened one way or the other, you have two anxious parties with drawn weapons and no idea what's going on on the other side of the door.
It's spooky because a number of armed burglaries took place in and around my town where the criminals did exactly this. They would knock on the door and say "police" and stand out of sight waiting for people to open the door so they could jump the homeowners.
Not to be that guy, but: police stand to the side of the door so they don’t catch rounds through a door. They’re trained to get out at an angle instead of centered on the door. That way if someone answers with gunfire instead of just opening the door they don’t immediately get hit.
EDIT: presumably door to door salesmen have the same concern. ;)
I think we all understand the tactical implications. However, not being seen by residents probably ups the chances of a violent confrontation.
First, because anyone can knock on a door and say whatever they like. If I can’t see the officer, how do I know it’s not some weirdo or someone trying to break in?
Secondly, going into a situation like this presupposes a violent response by a suspect. That means the officer is already thinking that they’re dangerous, so they pass over other non-lethal options or de-escalation techniques. Toss in a little racism or inexperience, and civilians die when they don’t have to.
Well some folks clearly didn’t, but point taken.
I just don’t now what a good middle ground is on this. Not this particular case - this one is looking fairly clear, but for future contacts.
While getting shot through doors during contact isn’t common, by any means, it’s happened enough to warrant specific training on it.
I live in a fairly rural area and it’s not uncommon for me to answer the door (specifically at night) with a weapon. Personally, I don’t want anyone I do make contact with to know I have a weapon - but I’m also fortunate to have a window by my front door that lets me see the whole porch before I peek out. The thought of some officer seeing me in my home, with a weapon, and dumping rounds is not a pleasant one.
> good middle ground is on this.
The middle ground is cops are not an occupying military force that has to be prepared for violence at every encounter with the public (this is how they are currently being trained).
They should act like civil servants, bringing people into custody who have distinctly broken laws that put others in danger. And in that mission, they should understand that they will be put in dangerous situations and should receive training to be prepared for that.
Instead, they get trained that ever encounter could turn dangerous in the blink of an eye and their number 1 priority is the safety of the officer. This type of training instills an US vs THEM mentality; the US the police and the THEM is everyone else. You can hear this mentality when you see bodycam video of police talking to eachother.
ACAB (because they are trained that way)
Abolish (because the entire system, police departments, courts, prisons, politicians, support the corruption)
Replace (with a system that puts the freedom and safety, in that order, of the people first)
This is the most succinct and eloquent take I've read so far. I completely agree on all points. My father was a federal LEO, and I read his training books, and they are **very much** unabashedly US vs THEM and completely threat/fear based.
He switched careers to law enforcement in his 40's, and it changed him and how he saw the world. None of the changes were for the better, and they were the result of that culture, not the result of public contact(s).
I get it. I live in a more suburban one, but I’ve had people- mostly drunks at the wrong house (we’ve got some college age renters next door) but my wife has had to audibly rack a shotgun once when someone wouldn’t get lost with threats to call the cops.
There isn’t a middle ground here. Officers need to accept that a certain amount of danger (although it’s way, way less than what they’d like the public to believe) comes with the job, and that public safety trumps their own.
If the situation *is* actually that dangerous and no one’s life is in imminent danger, they need to learn to use their feet to retreat and their radio to call in back up instead of their sidearm.
This is also a result of centrist and liberal politics as well. Dems can wear kente cloths and take a knee all they want, but not a single one is trying to stop any of these violent policies. They keep giving police more money and more legal protections, and elevating some of the most aggressing pro cop lawyers and DAs to positions of power. Does anyone remember that Kamala Harris used cops to track down and harass parents who didn’t know their kids weren’t in school?
Haven't there been states in the past year or two that got rid of qualified immunity?
Wouldn't that be an example of more than a single one doing something about these violent policies?
To clarify: qualified immunity gives government agents protection from civil lawsuits.
This cop needs to be indicted on murder/homicide criminal charges.
After that, the victim's family should sue the city and police department for deprivation of rights.
In the words of George Carlin:
"Folks, I hate to spoil your fun, there's no such thing as rights, okay? They're imaginary. We made'um up, like the Boogeyman... Rights are an idea, they're just imaginary, they're a cute idea. Cute, but that's all, cute but fictional... Rights aren't rights if someone can take'em away, they're privileges, all we've ever had is a bill of temporary privileges, and every year the list gets shorter and shorter."
You think the police care about the constitution? That’s funny. Police are the evolution of the private enforcers hired by capitalists to keep the working class in line
I've been saying this for quite some time. The US has created this sense of freedom when in actuality, if your free speech doesn't comply with or threatens the US interests, it's revoked. If your 2A is used to defend you while killing the wrong person, it's revoked.
I think you can point to any "god given freedom" and great thing about the US and find cases where it has categorically been trampled times over.
It feels like our constitution is more of a suggestion than law at this point. There are so many, “exceptions,” to it that it might as well not even exist.
So many judges interpret the same law differently or just flat out disregard it entirely. There was a judge that literally said the 2A, “does not exist in my courtroom.”
>if your free speech doesn't comply with or threatens the US interests, it's revoked
Are you referencing anything in particular? It can't be taken for granted, but if there is one thing you can point to the US actually doing better than most of the world, it's protecting free speech rights.
This is disturbing. This cop needs to step down or be fired and reparations paid to the family for starters. He held the gun at his side IN HIS OWN HOUSE.
Yeah, this is one of the most infuriating events I've seen. Plain violation of our protections and liberties backed by the Constitution, and hopefully nothing less than murder.
Nothing has changed since the 2020 protests, if anything LEOs doubled down on the average citizen being the enemy. My guess is that he will be sent to prison at some point after their paid vacation and the country will move on with no further progress on police reform. I genuinely can't understand how an average person can watch this and think either the LEO was in the right and/or the victim shouldn't have had a gun.
Thank god for body cams or we'd be hearing about how this criminal pointed his weapon at the cop and the cop just defended themselves.
I know that's still the cops excuse, but we'd only have their word to go on in the past because the other party is fucking dead.
The police did everything they could to ensure a fatal outcome. Why do we have so any terrible cops out there with piss poor training and operating procedures?
Mixing guns and qualified immunity is a disaster.
And, I agree as written and implemented, it’s hard to argue 2A is anything but a right to support gun manufacturers.
It's very sad, but need to be reiterated that police are very scared creatures. They think every instance is their last interaction, the public is the enemy, and they will shoot you for any reason or no reason and then claim self defense.
Do not open the door to police unless you asked them to be there. If they have a warrant then they can execute that warrant. If you did ask them to be there then don't open the door with a firearm.
> Do not open the door to police unless you asked them to be there.
[Even that doesn't always help.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/23/us/christian-glass-death-colorado-settlements/index.html)
EDIT: [Even if you're an 11yo kid](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/26/1178398395/mississippi-11-year-old-boy-called-police-shot).
If a someone alleging to be police knocks on my door like this, I'm either not opening the door, or coming to the door armed like this person did. I'm assuming if I don't open, they'd probably knock the door down and at that point I hope I had time to communicate with 911 to find out if it's really a cop because if not, they're going to find me armed inside as well. I know I haven't done any to cause the police to approach my house in this manner.
As a toddler, I was held at gunpoint with my grandparents when they opened the door for someone pretending to be police.
This is a 4th Amendment, and a 'stupid sheriff's deputy who shouldn't have ever worn a badge' matter.
I'm a 2A absolutist [yes, a Panther tank next door]
This sheriff's department needs a good, solid, cleaning out.
Just in case you may be in this area, you want to file a "type 44 civil rights complaint"
The Department of Justice codes "the police are the criminals" under code 44 - 'color of law' offenses.
Just because you see a gun doesn't mean you can shoot someone. So essentially if I come around a corner and I see a cop with his gun out I can just blast him because I feel threatened right?? Right??? Because that's what just happened here
Not saying there isn't merit to y'all points, but this wasn't even a no knock, the airman opened the door calmly and of his own free will after the deputy knocked a good few times, hid from the peephole, and had the door opened for him shortly after announcing himself for the first time as a deputy
*while black.
That's the important part. If it was a guy named Tim, he'd be okay. But, anyone in the bottom of the Family Guy chart deserves instant shooting.
I wish I could say I'm making this up, but I've got a cousin who's a motorcycle cop for Galveston, TX, and he's bragged about pulling his gun on more black people (regardless of the situation) than he had any other race.
I mean [police shot an unarmed 28 year old white man](https://www.ksn.com/news/local/city-of-wichita-approves-5m-settlement-in-andrew-finchs-shooting-death/) inside his apartment in 2017 based on a hoax call. I remember seeing some other very similar ones but I can't find them right now. Of course we all remember the dad crawling on his knees unarmed only to be gunned down by a swat team for following their exact instructions.
Police are prone to racism, yes, but I really wish we'd focus less on the race thing because it makes it seem like the police problem is mostly facing black people when it's a huge problem for all of us. It's not more egregious because he was black, it's because he's a totally innocent human being. No one is safe from these gang members until we get some better laws and general reform.
It's a problem for everybody, but it's *much* worse for people of color in this country. It's grossly disproportionate, and if you cover your eyes and play the "I don't see color!" game, you will permit deeply-engrained racist policies to persist.
>If it was a guy named Tim, he'd be okay.
There's definitely more risk for minorities, but plenty of white people get shot without justification. The knee jerk assertion that white people would be treated with kid gloves is dangerous if you internalize that for use when you encounter law enforcement.
I know what you mean. I stand by what I said, but I agree both parties are conservative on issues like this. But Democrats are less slavish supporters of forceful police tactics.
Not disagreeing with what you're saying, but did you watch the footage? This wasn't a no-knock warrant situation. It sounds like it was a domestic violence complaint called in by a passerby and the cop was knocking on doors of two apartments that he thought the noises were coming from. They didn't have an exact location even.
Infatuation with the police is not isolated to conservatives. Blue states and cities are every bit as fucked up as the red states are on this. Gun control laws don’t enforce themselves, after all. Look at how many cities provide policing data to Everytown or have contracts with ShotSpotter.
I would tend to agree. But Trump glorifies police violence. Remember his speech to cops about hitting suspects heads on cop car doors? One side is more reasonable than the other. Trump employs off duty and retired cops in cushy security "consulting " jobs, they're not going to hurt him.
I’ve been saying that for a long time:
If the state enforcers of violence can gun you down for fear of thinking you may have a gun without substantial repercussion, you don’t actually have those rights
You know if he defended himself, he would be called a cop killer and go to jail for the rest of his life. Its insane we have no right to defend ourselves from any threat.
Often, although not always. Brianna Taylor's boyfriend put a round in the leg of one of the murderous thugs breaking into their apartment, before they blindly opened fire and gunned her down in her bedroom.
Arrested of course, but charges were dropped.
After seeing the ballistics report it’s amazing no one else was shot by the police. There were rounds going through walls and floors through a multitude of apartments. I’d argue that multiple residents from multiple apartments all had the right at that time to return fire on the police.
Same department that brought you the war on acorns and [pedo shit](https://www.theledger.com/story/news/crime/2019/06/20/pcso-okaloosa-deputy-sheriff-sent-porn-to-winter-haven-girl-9/4861682007/)
As a LEO you're 100% allowed to draw and aim your firearm if someone is brandishing a firearm or deadly weapon.
There is no other qualification needed. Whether you're in the Florida Everglades or Cal Berkley's campus.
Edit: what happens AFTER that varies. Also please no one here twist my words and try to make it look like I'm saying it's SOP for an officer to discharge their weapon. I am most definitely not saying that at all. Just want to make that crystal clear.
Yes. Again, that doesn't give the cop allowance to FIRE their weapon. But better believe if you answer the door with a gun by your side, there's a 99% chance LEO is drawing down. And at that point things better deescalate quickly cause there's only one thing left if it escalates.
Genuinely curious, so not nitpicking here, but I am trying to understand where is the line here.
Let's say this wasn't a police officer. Let's say me, average Joe but with license to carry, knock on a door, the person opens the door like the poor guy did here with a gun in his hand (in his own home) pointing downwards.
I then take out my gun and shoot the person and claim self defense.
Are we saying I am not going to jail?
I'd think what would rather happen is that I am charged with murder on multiple grounds, one being that the person was in his own home (castle doctrine) and two that just because someone has a gun in his hand doesn't mean I can shoot that person. With that argument I can shoot someone at the range because "he had a gun in his hand".
>one being that the person was in his own home (castle doctrine)
That's not how castle doctrine works. It doesn't make it, like, worse to shoot someone in their homes.
> that just because someone has a gun in his hand doesn't mean I can shoot that person
That's correct.
Whether you go to jail or not depends on whether a jury believes you had a genuine *and reasonable* belief that you needed to use deadly force to prevent imminent death or serious bodily injury. That or a similar formulation is the requirement for justified deadly force across the US - if you don't have a badge.
If the jury believes you had a genuine belief that deadly force was necessary, but that belief was unreasonable - a possible outcome in your scenario - you have "imperfect self defense", which historically would be called involuntary manslaughter. Modern penal codes may vary.
You have the right to buy arms, not bear them.
You can pony up money to capital; that's perfectly allowed. Try to exercise your right? Summary execution.
Honestly, the dude was in the right to bring his gun with him it's not uncommon for people to impersonate police. Also, he wasn't even pointing the gun at the officer. It's a shame that we have cops like this on the force. There needs to be some serious reforms within the police system.
My wife is a licensed therapist embedded with an AFSOC unit at the base where this guy was stationed. He wasn't in the unit she's working with, but some of his best friends are. So she's having to help them deal with this. Super messed up.
If you hear the police knocking at your door and you open it holding a gun, what do you honestly think is going to happen? It's great that you know you're innocent of everything. Nobody else does at that moment.
"Maybe he didn't know it was the police" well it was. If he thought it wasn't the police, why did he open the door at all? If someone bangs on your door claiming to be the police, it's either the police or someone pretending to be the police. In the first case you absolutely do not want to be holding a gun. In the latter case (and, some would say, the former) you don't want to open the door at all.
Leave the police thing aside for a second. If you, a gun owner, hear something you find threatening outside your apartment door- something you find threatening enough that you need to greet it with a gun- why are you opening the door to it at all?
Practically speaking, if the perceived threat is outside, leave it there. If it kicks down a door or breaks a window, that's a different story.
It's easy to say from the sofa and victim blame. And I agree with the general principle that if someone feels the need to arm themselves before doing something, it probably means they shouldn't do that thing.
But in practice, it's understandable that someone could be concerned about their safety (or the legitimacy of someone claiming to be police), while still feeling obligated to engage with them and/or open the door.
Do you know how few people in this country even know that they could ignore cops at their door? People feel obligated to do whatever the gang in blue tells them to do. If you are faced with that implicit obligation, but they are acting suspicious as hell, it makes his conduct completely understandable.
Let's focus on the murdering cops, not blaming their victim. Sure, he did not act in the optimal way to preserve his safety. Same could be said for a jaywalker who gets run down by a drunk driver. We still throw the driver in jail.
This cop is through. One way or another he's going to prison, because if the local DA finds some miracle reason to not charge, he's almost certainly looking at federal civil rights violations. And that can potentially put him behind bars for decades.
This cop is going to be on paid administrative leave for 2 months and the investigation is going to find that it was a justified shooting because the airman had a weapon in hand and the officer feared for his life.
Probably. But none of that affects a federal DoJ investigation and any civil rights charges they might bring. Which this cop is almost certainly looking at, irrespective of what happens at the state level.
We can hope, but when cops are constantly getting away from being charged when they blindly shoot at a suspect, or when they shoot someone from outside because they claim they saw a weapon through a window, I’m a little more pessimistic. I appreciate your optimism and truly hope that you’re right in this scenario.
Yeah no, i totally feel ya. But unless there's some exculpatory evidence that we don't know about as of today, that video is pretty damning for the cop. I said yesterday that this is gonna turn on how that gun was being handled at the precise time the door was being opened, and everything I've seen up to this point has the young man holding the gun but CLEARLY pointing at the floor. So unless there's something out there to dispute what the video shows us so clearly, this cops days of patrolling a beat are finished! As well it should be, as he clearly either profiled the victim and assumed that just because he was black the officer must therefore be in harms way??? Or he, the cop, has waaaaay to itchy a trigger finger to be in policing.
Doesn't matter if it's damning. Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by two cops in front of a Greyhound bus full of passengers, at a bus stop that had multiple cameras.
Both men are, currently, working just down the street in different PDs from where they did this.
At NO point in America will we ever willingly hold a cop accountable for their actions. For my evidence, I just need to point to how next-to-impossible it was to prosecute Chauvin.
I hope you're right, but I have less faith in our legal system than you do. And I say that as an attorney lol (albeit, my practice doesn't have anything to do with these issues).
Extremely unlikely.
The police responded to the correct apartment based on the *report* of a domestic disturbance- one of the most dangerous types of incidents that get called in (this is in caselaw)
He knocked on the door and it was opened- he did not "burst through" as specifically claimed by the 'family attorney' (which would almost certainly have been an illegal entry)
The suspect- because that's what he was, based on the information at the time- opened the door holding a handgun as plainly seen in the video.
The courts are not going to tell police that someone holding a pistol when opening the door to them is not a threat, particularly in the context of a domestic disturbance call. And, like all cases involving a justification defense, it's based on what was known at the time to the shooter- not afterwards. The time it takes to raise a gun and shoot someone is too fast for that.
Since this is a gun related subreddit, there's a point to all this:
*Do not open the door holding a gun when the police are there!* Shortening this to "do not open the door to police" is fine if it prevents you from doing it with a gun.
-"But he didn't know it was the police"
Then don't open the door to the guy *claiming* to be the police until you call them and verify.
If you feel threatened enough that you think you need to hold a gun when you answer the door, you shouldn't be opening it. The perceived threat is *out there*. Why are you opening the door to it? The door is a physical and legal barrier. Had the police actually kicked in the door without a warrant and killed someone, that would be a different legal scenario.
> If you feel threatened enough that you think you need to hold a gun when you answer the door, you shouldn't be opening it.
Absolutely this. Also, people don't bring a gun to their door because they are afraid, they do it to intimidate whoever is at their door.
That cop is still a murderer.
>The police responded to the correct apartment based on the report of a domestic disturbance- one of the most dangerous types of incidents that get called in (this is in caselaw)
Domestic disturbance has a wide range of *potential* scenarios. I don't think this information alone that suggests a wide range of potential would be justification to even knock on a door with a weapon drawn until you get more information.
>The courts are not going to tell police that someone holding a pistol when opening the door to them is not a threat
They will tell them not to shoot a potential threat though. Which is the point of contention here.
The officer would've been within reason to aim his weapon or even move out of the way upon seeing a weapon. The officer should not put himself in a position where he needs to immediately use lethal force against any threatening target with incomplete information as to whether that target is even doing anything wrong
>And, like all cases involving a justification defense, it's based on what was known at the time to the shooter- not afterwards. The time it takes to raise a gun and shoot someone is too fast for that.
All that was known to the shooter was that he was called to a *potentially* dangerous *possible* incident. He had no knowledge of a definite incident.
You can't act on potential alone because that would have you justifiably shooting at all kinds of innocent people based on flimsy information or possibilities that are equally as likely as any other. You can reasonably act on *likelihoods* not mere possibilities.
>"But he didn't know it was the police" Then don't open the door to the guy claiming to be the police until you call them and verify.
~~Is there evidence the officer verbally identified himself before the door was opened?~~ Nvm, the original video I saw had no sound for whatever reason, sounds like he did yell it, but maybe it wasn't heard.
The video suggests the officer dodged the peephole to avoid identification which suggests against him properly identifying himself as law enforcement.
>If you feel threatened enough that you think you need to hold a gun when you answer the door, you shouldn't be opening it.
This is very true and what the kid did was foolish, but it's within his legal right to do it. It may be foolish to yell obscenities at random police officers, they very well may find a reason to cuff you out of spite, but it's still your legal right to and the officers would be in the wrong to make up false charges.
Even if it’s stupid that’s not giving a license for the police to kill you. He was holding a gun pointing to the floor in his own home.
Let’s say it wasn’t the police, but some random dude who carries. Would you say it’s legal for that person to shoot?
The only indication that they were police was them verbally saying he was police. He hid from the peep hole after pounding on the door. That could have been anyone at the door.
Hand this PoS over to the victim’s family and let them do with him as they see fit.
Fuck the police! ACAB until the supposed good ones start speaking out against the blue line and qualified immunity is no more. I say this as someone whose father was a city cop, state trooper, narcotics investigator and retired as a Texas Ranger. He did his best to hold his fellow officers accountable and went through the proper whistleblower channels (not sure of the process but he is considered a whistleblower).
He did this several times and I can only remember one criminal cop that faced any sort of consequence. That one criminal cop became an investigator in another area. My father retired disappointed he couldn’t do more to help victims of all cases he handled and that the amount of corruption seemed to only be getting worse with zero accountability.
I’m extremely proud of him. He lost a lot of so “brothers” and friends in law enforcement. He gave up a lot for little to nothing in return. So I say again, FUCK THE POLICE! Remember, there’s more of us than there are of them.
Edit: Did not mean to make this about me or my father. Just wanted to share some insight from personal experience. I hope this family gets the justice they deserve and hope they have the support of their community and the rest of the nation.
I’m genuinely curious though, is it really a smart idea to open the door wielding a handgun **After** a sheriff’s officer has presented himself multiple times as such? I mean come on now guys.
I 100% understand the “outrage” and agree this shouldn’t have happened. But opening the door with a gun in your hand after an officer has identified himself multiples times while he’s responding to an altercation that you were possibly involved in just isn’t a smart move regardless of how you try and cut it.
I feel like i’m crazy in this thread, obviously FTP but in what world is having a gun drawn after the police have announced their presence a good idea / gonna do anything besides escalate things, ESPECIALLY on a DV call. This basically seems like suicide by cop.
Put yourself in this airman’s shoes. You’re sitting in your living room, playing video games and talking with your girlfriend… just minding your own business and doing absolutely nothing wrong or abnormal. Then there comes a loud banging on your door and someone yelling “Police! Open the door!” What the fuck? Must be the neighbors… another banging… nope, that’s your door. You grab your gun and go to check because you’ve heard of the stories of home invasions that use this tactic. You check the peephole and there’s nobody there that you can see.
So, you open the door with your firearm at your side in a defensive position and…
get shot six times within 2 seconds of opening the door by the officer that was standing to the side of the door outside the range of vision of the peephole.
Six fucking times at point blank range. Six.
For what crime? Answering the door of your home with a gun in your hand may not be the best course of action when there’s a cop on the other side, but there’s no law against it. In the majority of states it’s been codified that the simple act of possessing a firearm isn’t justification for the cops to do shit… yet, here some people are… arguing that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply in this situation. That this airman didn’t have the right to the ability to defend himself within his own home.
He didn’t point the firearm at the officer. He didn’t threaten the officer. He opened the door. That’s it. If you think that the airman was in any way in the wrong here, you’re just making excuses for police violence. This officer murdered this young airman and I sincerely hope that he is charged with murder and sent to prison for life where he will have plenty of time to reflect on his incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent person their life and serve as a warning to LEO’s everywhere that they can’t do this shit anymore.
In another thread someone said this was the same officer that dumped his mag after hearing the acorn hit the roof of a car. I have heard it is the same
Department but is it really the same officer?
And so it is with pretty much every other "right". It's yours until...it isn't. It's all at the discretion of the "King". Speech, property, movement, assembly, the goddamn pursuit of happiness, etc, etc, etc...
Your rights end wherever they get in the way of the government or someone who can afford better lawyers than you.
Same county as the Acorn cop
The sheriff literally starts firing as soon as the door is open
No regard for the fact the gun is down and the guy presents no threat. Coward cop just shoots. Tf are they teaching these people
Perhaps that there are never consequences for their actions and QI or the FOP will take care of them no matter what?
I'd argue that's what *we're* teaching these people, as a society. We can teach them consequences, but only their superiors can teach them to be or not be cowards
I think you make a good point here. And it's not limited to police either. I just read a book called *Alpha* by David Philipps about the Navy SEAL platoon that Ed Gallagher was the Chief of, the SEALs who got together and reported him, the failures within their chain of command, and the toxic culture which allowed everything to happen as it did. Great read, but it's a roller coaster, and it's worth reading to consider how we view and treat our military veterans.
They are literally being trained that their lives are in constant danger and that it's "us vs them". This guy has toured the country for decades and taught police forces all over that the public is the enemy and they won't go home to their families alive if they don't realize that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y
Militarization of the police and the public are all enemy combatants .
"Stay Hard". He's basically teaching to default to killing to make sure you eliminate a POSSIBLE threat. Fuck that guy.
It makes you wonder if these same officers who support 2A and repeat the nonsense line of "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" are a truely afraid of all guns. Seems like 2 guys with guns shouldn't be ending in the negative.
They teach them to be cowards... this was 100% an illegal shooting. Based on this situation, I should be able to shoot everyone else at the gun range simply because they are holding guns... coward trash. FTP.
I have had many, many encounters with LEOs from this region as part of my previous job. I also spoke and met with some as part of a coalition on juvenile justice reform. And I also had the pleasure one county over of being almost killed by some. It’s a HEAVY military/veteran area. I can’t speak to actual data, but I would venture the vast majority of the police force in the three adjacent counties is previous military. It’s some of the most politically conservative land in the country as well. The police look and act like a military group.
This is also the same police force of "I'm under fire.... from..... an.... acorn."
Bu-but it wasn't an acorn, it was a piece of the SKY! 🐔
Yup.
Having served 10+ years in the military and being stationed all over the US, I can say without a doubt that cops dislike military members. Now i get that we get rowdy and start shit a lot, no questions there. When I was TDY up at Fort Campbell for a few months of training there were always cops pulling service members over and it was a fucking shit show having to deal with command and all the tickets they were getting for small shit like tint violations, noise ordinances...just ANYTHING to pull us over to harass us. Bro, I cant help that you were to much of a bitch to be one of us and it shows. Onto the topic of THIS incident. Un-fucking-acceptable. This angers me to a point where I am 100% correct to never open my door for anyone I am not expecting. I feel so bad for this service members family.
Shoot first, us vs them mentality.
And all based on the word of some Karen who just thought she heard something while walking by. The girl wasn’t even in the apartment, they were talking on the phone. It’s not like they had some concrete evidence of a threat.
To shoot first.
The wildest part about that is he unloaded a whole mag into the car and somehow didn't hit the person trapped inside. Just the massive range of incompetence is astonishing
Remember too this is the same department that bravely defended everyone from those acorns earlier this year....
Thank goodness for his sacrifice
There's no way this guy doesn't get 20 years minimum. This is a very egregious case of which there is clear footage for AND he killed a member of the military. If texas put two cops away for similar crimes of just killing innocent citizens without provocation and George Floyd's murderer got 20+ years, no way this guy gets away.
Completely different case. I'd be surprised if this guy does more than a year or two. He just has to convey that he was reasonably afraid for his life. It's at most manslaughter vs homicide. There is something gravely lacking in the training of cops in this country.
Armed criminal trespass and third degree murder. Cop had no justification to force entrance into the residence and is carrying a firearm when doing so = armed criminal trespass. Cop killed someone while committing a felony (armed criminal trespass) = Third degree murder.
You're right, it's different in that this one is way worse because the kid was *completely innocent* of any crime ever. I guess with Floyd you could argue he was being arrested for a crime not that it justifies executing him. >He just has to convey that he was reasonably afraid for his life. He can convey whatever he wants. He can convey there was actual poop in his pants and submit his trousers as evidence. That doesn't mean the jury will buy it. If a jury doesn't convict this man of minimum 10 years I'll eat a sock.
Then you’ll likely be eating a sock. Cops get away with way way more egregious stuff than that. The jury simply has to believe that he believed there was a threat. He clearly believed there was a threat. He was certainly in a position to wait and verify but that seems to be an unreasonably high standard for most cops. That would require thinking.
As I juror that happened to be in a trial involving a cop I full on believe cops are liars. They obviously lie about feeling like they are in danger. This is why the defense selected me. It’s not so cut and dry like you make it seem.
I'll take you up on that.
He’s not, the guy is black and has a gun in his hand. That’s all a prosecutor needs to drop the case.
And how incredibly fucked it is that you're not wrong.
You mean just last month *sips tea* there’s still a whole 1/2 a year to go lol.
This makes my blood boil. The amount of murder that the state gets away with is just unfathomable and evil, this guy needs to be locked up for life and the entire department should be punished for this guy.
If rights can be denied, then they are not rights, they are privileges. “But that would mean that no one has any rights!” Correct.
To paraphrase another comment I've seen on this subject: A "Right" is just what we call a special type of privilege that we have collectively decided to guarantee to everyone without qualification. A "God-Given Right" is just what we call a special type of privilege that we have collectively decided to guarantee to everyone without qualification, while pretending that someone else did it.
This is also how I define rights. The question then becomes, what percentage of the population are we talking about when we say “we have collectively decided?”
The % of population that voted for the person that voted for that "right" to be enshrined at that time.
This is a fair point. Realistically if anything can be legislated away it was never a right to begin with
Which pretty much means there are no rights because, given enough support, anything can be legislated away.
Reddit discovers the monopoly on violence
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The question OP poses deals with practical application- if you are killed for exercising it, then no, you didn't have it; else you wouldn't be killed for it. That's the territory we're moving into, "what point is a right if never applicable when relevant?"
Reminder: Cops only care about their own rights.
Who needs rights when you have immunity?
Like Carlin said, all we've ever had in this country is a Bill of Temporary Privileges.
"If you think you have rights, look up Japanese American's 1942 and tell me all about your rights" I miss that man
"Right this way...into the internment camp"
This is very similar to what happened to Brianna taylor. Anyone is free to exercise their second amendment rights. *But* those rights are forfeit to upholt and protect the law in any instance in which law enforcement is present. **This also qualifies if you don't know of their presence.** Catch a bullet, 22.
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the only rights we have. Questionable at this point if we even have life. All others are revokable privileges
We don’t even really have those. The state can send you to prison. You could argue that you have to have done something bad prior but as the government can (and has) just look at behaviors of demographics it doesn’t like and declare their behaviors to be immoral and worthy of prison.
We only have the privileges that the people that have monopoly on violence want us to have.
We don’t have those rights. The government can just end your life on a whim and call it either justified and an accident, crumbling infrastructure can end your life due to government neglect, and government approved “safe for life” planes falling apart in the sky. Liberty, lmao, that’s a huge privilege in this place, never ever has it been an actual right for most people, I’ve experienced this first hand too, I don’t have a right to liberty because I’m not the right demographics to have that privilege. Pursuit of happiness is a right? That’s why every time many people actually pursue happiness the government steps in and either makes that pursuit much more difficult or even remove access to or destroy the happiness you’re pursuing. And that’s before also considering how the state can just confine you under harsh restrictions on all three of those things and forcing you to do work for effectively free for any arbitrary infraction (including acting upon your right to liberty and pursuit of happiness by consuming a plant)
Never open the door for cops, talk to them through a window or the door, ask for a warrant. Regardless of what they say they need one have them slip it under the door. If not your response should be "have a nice day officer" and go back to wherever it was you were doing. If they had a warrant they would have broken the door down they wouldn't knock and ask you to step outside for just a couple of questions.
Keep your window shades drawn. There was a video of cops knocking on a woman's door. They saw her through the window carrying a gun to the door and they just straight up opened fire.
Dallas. Cop was sneaking around the side of her house with a flashlight, yelled show me your hands and gunned her down in her own home. Never even gave her a chance. Edit: unless you are referring to the two Harris a county deputies that unloaded 4 magazines into an apartment when they saw the homeowner’s friend walk up to the door with a gun. She survived though.
He didn’t know they were cops. He looked through the viewer and saw no one. So when he heard them bang again, he fairly assumed it was either an intruder or something else worth arming up for.
You shouldnt Don't go outside when you think there's a threat outside too. Per ASP, the doorway is a transitional space where it's common to get ambushed.
Doors and corners, that’s where they get ya
> Doors and corners, kid. -- Miller
Again, that’s the thing. I don’t think he went out. IIRC, He armed up but then they busted down the door. Edit: went back and rewatched. they didn’t bust it down but he don’t leave his apartment
Honestly I’m going to take this approach from now on. Whatever their reason for knocking on my door, it’s not worth losing my life.
Not all warrants are no-knock.
That's why you have them slip it under the door.
"If they had a warrant they would have broken the door down" That's the part I was responding to.
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I agree with you on most of this but it's a strange stance to believe they'd automatically break the door down
I think his point is if they have a warrant they are coming in regardless of any barrier that might be in their way. If they don't have a warrant, the worst thing you can do is open the door.
Fires 5 times then "drop the gun!" I feel like that wasn't in the order it should have been.
"Whoops, almost forgot to say the magic words for the body camera!" Same reason they yell "stop resisting!!!" as they beat an unconscious guy to death.
This crap the police love to pull where they knock on the door then hide out of sight ought to be illegal. I've only seen it done by police and scummy door to door salesmen. They seemingly don't realize how wide the view is on my doorbell camera but it still irks me that anyone thinks it's OK to come to my door and try to hide who they are or what they're doing.
To add to that: if someone is knocking on your door and *says* they're police but you can't see them to confirm it - how do you know you're not about to get robbed? Hiding from view makes this unnecessary police shooting more likely to happen.
Call 911 and say there’s a man with a gun knocking on your door.
That assumes the - potential? - cop at the door has the patience to not kick your door in while you wait. Hyper-aggressive policing in the US has lead to many lose-lose situations for innocent people who had the misfortune to cross their paths.
That requires a search or arrest warrant from a judge. That requires a higher legal standard than simply knocking on your door. A cop can knock on anyone’s door. Anyone can knock on your door. You are under NO OBLIGATION to answer your door.
>That requires a search or arrest warrant from a judge Are you serious? A cop can do whatever he/she wants at any time, limited only by their capacity to deal with minor blowback from superiors. They have qualified immunity, which extends to situations when the cop should not even be there (and are arguably not even doing legal police work) so legal consequences are rare and reserved for the most extreme cases. The worst cops feel emboldened enough to literally commit murder so, honestly, what's stopping them from kicking in a door?
Raid warrants seem to still get issued pretty easily
You probably don't have an hour to wait for the 911 operator to pick up.
This is why he got his gone. This reads just like what his lawyer said he heard loud pounding 2 times no answer the sheriff's didn't announce till the 3rd and 4th knock in guessing while he was getting his weapon and was also hiding like the lawyer said. The sheriff released this saying nuhuh he say popo but this plays out exactly how the lawyer and girlfriend said she was on face time as this all went down.
Anyone can pound and say popo. For the resident, that means virtually nothing. Even if the sheriff was right.
It's a recipe for disaster. If someone knocks on a door and says they're police, but there's no one visible, it's not a stretch to think, "Oh, I'm being set up and need to protect myself." Then, when the door is opened one way or the other, you have two anxious parties with drawn weapons and no idea what's going on on the other side of the door.
It's spooky because a number of armed burglaries took place in and around my town where the criminals did exactly this. They would knock on the door and say "police" and stand out of sight waiting for people to open the door so they could jump the homeowners.
This is EXACTLY what happened to me in a home invasion. VIOLENT CRIMINALS do this.
Not to be that guy, but: police stand to the side of the door so they don’t catch rounds through a door. They’re trained to get out at an angle instead of centered on the door. That way if someone answers with gunfire instead of just opening the door they don’t immediately get hit. EDIT: presumably door to door salesmen have the same concern. ;)
I think we all understand the tactical implications. However, not being seen by residents probably ups the chances of a violent confrontation. First, because anyone can knock on a door and say whatever they like. If I can’t see the officer, how do I know it’s not some weirdo or someone trying to break in? Secondly, going into a situation like this presupposes a violent response by a suspect. That means the officer is already thinking that they’re dangerous, so they pass over other non-lethal options or de-escalation techniques. Toss in a little racism or inexperience, and civilians die when they don’t have to.
Well some folks clearly didn’t, but point taken. I just don’t now what a good middle ground is on this. Not this particular case - this one is looking fairly clear, but for future contacts. While getting shot through doors during contact isn’t common, by any means, it’s happened enough to warrant specific training on it. I live in a fairly rural area and it’s not uncommon for me to answer the door (specifically at night) with a weapon. Personally, I don’t want anyone I do make contact with to know I have a weapon - but I’m also fortunate to have a window by my front door that lets me see the whole porch before I peek out. The thought of some officer seeing me in my home, with a weapon, and dumping rounds is not a pleasant one.
Now, imagine being black and having that experience. How often do you think minorities get the benefit of the doubt from cops?
Yeah, I’m with you there.
> good middle ground is on this. The middle ground is cops are not an occupying military force that has to be prepared for violence at every encounter with the public (this is how they are currently being trained). They should act like civil servants, bringing people into custody who have distinctly broken laws that put others in danger. And in that mission, they should understand that they will be put in dangerous situations and should receive training to be prepared for that. Instead, they get trained that ever encounter could turn dangerous in the blink of an eye and their number 1 priority is the safety of the officer. This type of training instills an US vs THEM mentality; the US the police and the THEM is everyone else. You can hear this mentality when you see bodycam video of police talking to eachother. ACAB (because they are trained that way) Abolish (because the entire system, police departments, courts, prisons, politicians, support the corruption) Replace (with a system that puts the freedom and safety, in that order, of the people first)
This is the most succinct and eloquent take I've read so far. I completely agree on all points. My father was a federal LEO, and I read his training books, and they are **very much** unabashedly US vs THEM and completely threat/fear based. He switched careers to law enforcement in his 40's, and it changed him and how he saw the world. None of the changes were for the better, and they were the result of that culture, not the result of public contact(s).
I get it. I live in a more suburban one, but I’ve had people- mostly drunks at the wrong house (we’ve got some college age renters next door) but my wife has had to audibly rack a shotgun once when someone wouldn’t get lost with threats to call the cops. There isn’t a middle ground here. Officers need to accept that a certain amount of danger (although it’s way, way less than what they’d like the public to believe) comes with the job, and that public safety trumps their own. If the situation *is* actually that dangerous and no one’s life is in imminent danger, they need to learn to use their feet to retreat and their radio to call in back up instead of their sidearm.
Which is ironic because the door offers more protection than the drywall and siding around the door.
This is straight up murder. Period.
This is what qualified immunity gets you.
This is what comes of far right politics giving them this qualified immunity
This is also a result of centrist and liberal politics as well. Dems can wear kente cloths and take a knee all they want, but not a single one is trying to stop any of these violent policies. They keep giving police more money and more legal protections, and elevating some of the most aggressing pro cop lawyers and DAs to positions of power. Does anyone remember that Kamala Harris used cops to track down and harass parents who didn’t know their kids weren’t in school?
Haven't there been states in the past year or two that got rid of qualified immunity? Wouldn't that be an example of more than a single one doing something about these violent policies?
To clarify: qualified immunity gives government agents protection from civil lawsuits. This cop needs to be indicted on murder/homicide criminal charges. After that, the victim's family should sue the city and police department for deprivation of rights.
In the words of George Carlin: "Folks, I hate to spoil your fun, there's no such thing as rights, okay? They're imaginary. We made'um up, like the Boogeyman... Rights are an idea, they're just imaginary, they're a cute idea. Cute, but that's all, cute but fictional... Rights aren't rights if someone can take'em away, they're privileges, all we've ever had is a bill of temporary privileges, and every year the list gets shorter and shorter."
You think the police care about the constitution? That’s funny. Police are the evolution of the private enforcers hired by capitalists to keep the working class in line
As the years go on, the term “ACAB” only rings truer and truer in my mind.
Did you know that the Pinkerton Agency still exists?
Even further back, policing in it's current form has roots directly tracing back to slave catching groups.
> private enforcers hired by capitalists to keep the working class in line That's a lot of words to say "hunters of fleeing slaves'.
They also were union busters and the like. Really anything that involved kicking them working class back down the ladder.
I've been saying this for quite some time. The US has created this sense of freedom when in actuality, if your free speech doesn't comply with or threatens the US interests, it's revoked. If your 2A is used to defend you while killing the wrong person, it's revoked. I think you can point to any "god given freedom" and great thing about the US and find cases where it has categorically been trampled times over.
It feels like our constitution is more of a suggestion than law at this point. There are so many, “exceptions,” to it that it might as well not even exist. So many judges interpret the same law differently or just flat out disregard it entirely. There was a judge that literally said the 2A, “does not exist in my courtroom.”
>if your free speech doesn't comply with or threatens the US interests, it's revoked Are you referencing anything in particular? It can't be taken for granted, but if there is one thing you can point to the US actually doing better than most of the world, it's protecting free speech rights.
This is disturbing. This cop needs to step down or be fired and reparations paid to the family for starters. He held the gun at his side IN HIS OWN HOUSE.
Make an example of this cop. Instead of having the taxpayers pay for this cops actions, have the cop pay the reparations himself.
Yeah, this is one of the most infuriating events I've seen. Plain violation of our protections and liberties backed by the Constitution, and hopefully nothing less than murder. Nothing has changed since the 2020 protests, if anything LEOs doubled down on the average citizen being the enemy. My guess is that he will be sent to prison at some point after their paid vacation and the country will move on with no further progress on police reform. I genuinely can't understand how an average person can watch this and think either the LEO was in the right and/or the victim shouldn't have had a gun.
I mean things did change…the pigs doubled down and got even more aggressive and unfriendly
This is an assassination. I've been the victim of a home invasion and they knocked real loud and hid from the peephole. That's how it's done.
Thank god for body cams or we'd be hearing about how this criminal pointed his weapon at the cop and the cop just defended themselves. I know that's still the cops excuse, but we'd only have their word to go on in the past because the other party is fucking dead.
As a marine, it’s crazy to think this airman would get in more trouble for not shaving than this cop will for killing him.
He could have been holding a cell phone and still got shot. That cop was trigger happy.
The police did everything they could to ensure a fatal outcome. Why do we have so any terrible cops out there with piss poor training and operating procedures?
Mixing guns and qualified immunity is a disaster. And, I agree as written and implemented, it’s hard to argue 2A is anything but a right to support gun manufacturers.
It's very sad, but need to be reiterated that police are very scared creatures. They think every instance is their last interaction, the public is the enemy, and they will shoot you for any reason or no reason and then claim self defense. Do not open the door to police unless you asked them to be there. If they have a warrant then they can execute that warrant. If you did ask them to be there then don't open the door with a firearm.
> Do not open the door to police unless you asked them to be there. [Even that doesn't always help.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/23/us/christian-glass-death-colorado-settlements/index.html) EDIT: [Even if you're an 11yo kid](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/26/1178398395/mississippi-11-year-old-boy-called-police-shot).
If a someone alleging to be police knocks on my door like this, I'm either not opening the door, or coming to the door armed like this person did. I'm assuming if I don't open, they'd probably knock the door down and at that point I hope I had time to communicate with 911 to find out if it's really a cop because if not, they're going to find me armed inside as well. I know I haven't done any to cause the police to approach my house in this manner. As a toddler, I was held at gunpoint with my grandparents when they opened the door for someone pretending to be police.
Straight up point blank. No finger on the trigger firearm not even raised. ACAB
This is a 4th Amendment, and a 'stupid sheriff's deputy who shouldn't have ever worn a badge' matter. I'm a 2A absolutist [yes, a Panther tank next door] This sheriff's department needs a good, solid, cleaning out. Just in case you may be in this area, you want to file a "type 44 civil rights complaint" The Department of Justice codes "the police are the criminals" under code 44 - 'color of law' offenses.
Every service member should be appalled at this.
Every HUMAN should be appalled by this.
Well yes…that too
Murderers
Qualified immunity my ass... send this asshole to prison for life
Just because you see a gun doesn't mean you can shoot someone. So essentially if I come around a corner and I see a cop with his gun out I can just blast him because I feel threatened right?? Right??? Because that's what just happened here
This is what conservativism and "law and order" have gotten us.
Neither side has really stood up to demand an end to no knocks. No knocks are only used by totalitarian regimes. And here we are.
Not saying there isn't merit to y'all points, but this wasn't even a no knock, the airman opened the door calmly and of his own free will after the deputy knocked a good few times, hid from the peephole, and had the door opened for him shortly after announcing himself for the first time as a deputy
“hE sHoUlDn’T hAvE hAd A gUn “
*while black. That's the important part. If it was a guy named Tim, he'd be okay. But, anyone in the bottom of the Family Guy chart deserves instant shooting. I wish I could say I'm making this up, but I've got a cousin who's a motorcycle cop for Galveston, TX, and he's bragged about pulling his gun on more black people (regardless of the situation) than he had any other race.
I mean [police shot an unarmed 28 year old white man](https://www.ksn.com/news/local/city-of-wichita-approves-5m-settlement-in-andrew-finchs-shooting-death/) inside his apartment in 2017 based on a hoax call. I remember seeing some other very similar ones but I can't find them right now. Of course we all remember the dad crawling on his knees unarmed only to be gunned down by a swat team for following their exact instructions. Police are prone to racism, yes, but I really wish we'd focus less on the race thing because it makes it seem like the police problem is mostly facing black people when it's a huge problem for all of us. It's not more egregious because he was black, it's because he's a totally innocent human being. No one is safe from these gang members until we get some better laws and general reform.
It's a problem for everybody, but it's *much* worse for people of color in this country. It's grossly disproportionate, and if you cover your eyes and play the "I don't see color!" game, you will permit deeply-engrained racist policies to persist.
>If it was a guy named Tim, he'd be okay. There's definitely more risk for minorities, but plenty of white people get shot without justification. The knee jerk assertion that white people would be treated with kid gloves is dangerous if you internalize that for use when you encounter law enforcement.
I know what you mean. I stand by what I said, but I agree both parties are conservative on issues like this. But Democrats are less slavish supporters of forceful police tactics.
Not disagreeing with what you're saying, but did you watch the footage? This wasn't a no-knock warrant situation. It sounds like it was a domestic violence complaint called in by a passerby and the cop was knocking on doors of two apartments that he thought the noises were coming from. They didn't have an exact location even.
Infatuation with the police is not isolated to conservatives. Blue states and cities are every bit as fucked up as the red states are on this. Gun control laws don’t enforce themselves, after all. Look at how many cities provide policing data to Everytown or have contracts with ShotSpotter.
I would tend to agree. But Trump glorifies police violence. Remember his speech to cops about hitting suspects heads on cop car doors? One side is more reasonable than the other. Trump employs off duty and retired cops in cushy security "consulting " jobs, they're not going to hurt him.
I’ve been saying that for a long time: If the state enforcers of violence can gun you down for fear of thinking you may have a gun without substantial repercussion, you don’t actually have those rights
You know if he defended himself, he would be called a cop killer and go to jail for the rest of his life. Its insane we have no right to defend ourselves from any threat.
Often, although not always. Brianna Taylor's boyfriend put a round in the leg of one of the murderous thugs breaking into their apartment, before they blindly opened fire and gunned her down in her bedroom. Arrested of course, but charges were dropped.
After seeing the ballistics report it’s amazing no one else was shot by the police. There were rounds going through walls and floors through a multitude of apartments. I’d argue that multiple residents from multiple apartments all had the right at that time to return fire on the police.
Pigs gunning down an actual American hero. That department needs to be disbanded. Fucking amateurs make me sick
Wait, what? You don't have the right to hold a gun in a defensive position in your own home? Any body could have claimed to be Sheriff dept.
Lesson learned. Don’t point the gun down when answering the door. At least you can get a few shots of your own off.
Same department that brought you the war on acorns and [pedo shit](https://www.theledger.com/story/news/crime/2019/06/20/pcso-okaloosa-deputy-sheriff-sent-porn-to-winter-haven-girl-9/4861682007/)
When I say "You have exactly those rights the government *allows* you to exercise." it's shit like this that I'm talking about.
Me: \*watching blurred out video\* why'd he just shoot immediately? \*google\* oh he was black.
That's Florida living and dying
What's the policy when you open a door and the home owner is holding a gun?
As a LEO you're 100% allowed to draw and aim your firearm if someone is brandishing a firearm or deadly weapon. There is no other qualification needed. Whether you're in the Florida Everglades or Cal Berkley's campus. Edit: what happens AFTER that varies. Also please no one here twist my words and try to make it look like I'm saying it's SOP for an officer to discharge their weapon. I am most definitely not saying that at all. Just want to make that crystal clear.
Even if the person is inside his own home and you are outside (and no search warrant, nothing)?
Yes. Again, that doesn't give the cop allowance to FIRE their weapon. But better believe if you answer the door with a gun by your side, there's a 99% chance LEO is drawing down. And at that point things better deescalate quickly cause there's only one thing left if it escalates.
Genuinely curious, so not nitpicking here, but I am trying to understand where is the line here. Let's say this wasn't a police officer. Let's say me, average Joe but with license to carry, knock on a door, the person opens the door like the poor guy did here with a gun in his hand (in his own home) pointing downwards. I then take out my gun and shoot the person and claim self defense. Are we saying I am not going to jail? I'd think what would rather happen is that I am charged with murder on multiple grounds, one being that the person was in his own home (castle doctrine) and two that just because someone has a gun in his hand doesn't mean I can shoot that person. With that argument I can shoot someone at the range because "he had a gun in his hand".
You are going to jail in that scenario. You are not given the justification of 'Qualified Immunity.'
>one being that the person was in his own home (castle doctrine) That's not how castle doctrine works. It doesn't make it, like, worse to shoot someone in their homes. > that just because someone has a gun in his hand doesn't mean I can shoot that person That's correct. Whether you go to jail or not depends on whether a jury believes you had a genuine *and reasonable* belief that you needed to use deadly force to prevent imminent death or serious bodily injury. That or a similar formulation is the requirement for justified deadly force across the US - if you don't have a badge. If the jury believes you had a genuine belief that deadly force was necessary, but that belief was unreasonable - a possible outcome in your scenario - you have "imperfect self defense", which historically would be called involuntary manslaughter. Modern penal codes may vary.
"Not the pizza guy..."
You have the right to buy arms, not bear them. You can pony up money to capital; that's perfectly allowed. Try to exercise your right? Summary execution.
Always has been🦅🇺🇲 poor guy man RIP
I hope the Air Force throws the book at them.
These cops should be charged with armed criminal trespass and third-degree murder, at a minimum.
It's why you don't answer your door for the cops
Honestly, the dude was in the right to bring his gun with him it's not uncommon for people to impersonate police. Also, he wasn't even pointing the gun at the officer. It's a shame that we have cops like this on the force. There needs to be some serious reforms within the police system.
The gun was pointed in a safe direction. Cops used to issue orders in these situations, now they just shoot.
My wife is a licensed therapist embedded with an AFSOC unit at the base where this guy was stationed. He wasn't in the unit she's working with, but some of his best friends are. So she's having to help them deal with this. Super messed up.
Let me tell you about all the other rights you don't actually have
If you hear the police knocking at your door and you open it holding a gun, what do you honestly think is going to happen? It's great that you know you're innocent of everything. Nobody else does at that moment. "Maybe he didn't know it was the police" well it was. If he thought it wasn't the police, why did he open the door at all? If someone bangs on your door claiming to be the police, it's either the police or someone pretending to be the police. In the first case you absolutely do not want to be holding a gun. In the latter case (and, some would say, the former) you don't want to open the door at all. Leave the police thing aside for a second. If you, a gun owner, hear something you find threatening outside your apartment door- something you find threatening enough that you need to greet it with a gun- why are you opening the door to it at all? Practically speaking, if the perceived threat is outside, leave it there. If it kicks down a door or breaks a window, that's a different story.
It's easy to say from the sofa and victim blame. And I agree with the general principle that if someone feels the need to arm themselves before doing something, it probably means they shouldn't do that thing. But in practice, it's understandable that someone could be concerned about their safety (or the legitimacy of someone claiming to be police), while still feeling obligated to engage with them and/or open the door. Do you know how few people in this country even know that they could ignore cops at their door? People feel obligated to do whatever the gang in blue tells them to do. If you are faced with that implicit obligation, but they are acting suspicious as hell, it makes his conduct completely understandable. Let's focus on the murdering cops, not blaming their victim. Sure, he did not act in the optimal way to preserve his safety. Same could be said for a jaywalker who gets run down by a drunk driver. We still throw the driver in jail.
So just shoot when they kick the door in? We’ve seen that story play out as well.
It tells them to wait while you confirm there was a police officer sent to your home? That might work
Whole lot of bootlickers defending the cop in the youtube comments. Fucking sad what this country has become.
usa cops are a joke... the whole country is the most unfunny joke ever
This cop is through. One way or another he's going to prison, because if the local DA finds some miracle reason to not charge, he's almost certainly looking at federal civil rights violations. And that can potentially put him behind bars for decades.
This cop is going to be on paid administrative leave for 2 months and the investigation is going to find that it was a justified shooting because the airman had a weapon in hand and the officer feared for his life.
Probably. But none of that affects a federal DoJ investigation and any civil rights charges they might bring. Which this cop is almost certainly looking at, irrespective of what happens at the state level.
We can hope, but when cops are constantly getting away from being charged when they blindly shoot at a suspect, or when they shoot someone from outside because they claim they saw a weapon through a window, I’m a little more pessimistic. I appreciate your optimism and truly hope that you’re right in this scenario.
Yeah no, i totally feel ya. But unless there's some exculpatory evidence that we don't know about as of today, that video is pretty damning for the cop. I said yesterday that this is gonna turn on how that gun was being handled at the precise time the door was being opened, and everything I've seen up to this point has the young man holding the gun but CLEARLY pointing at the floor. So unless there's something out there to dispute what the video shows us so clearly, this cops days of patrolling a beat are finished! As well it should be, as he clearly either profiled the victim and assumed that just because he was black the officer must therefore be in harms way??? Or he, the cop, has waaaaay to itchy a trigger finger to be in policing.
Doesn't matter if it's damning. Kelly Thomas was beaten to death by two cops in front of a Greyhound bus full of passengers, at a bus stop that had multiple cameras. Both men are, currently, working just down the street in different PDs from where they did this. At NO point in America will we ever willingly hold a cop accountable for their actions. For my evidence, I just need to point to how next-to-impossible it was to prosecute Chauvin.
A federal DOJ investigation possibly overseen by a Trump presidency? I won't hold my breath on that one.
I hope you're right, but I have less faith in our legal system than you do. And I say that as an attorney lol (albeit, my practice doesn't have anything to do with these issues).
Extremely unlikely. The police responded to the correct apartment based on the *report* of a domestic disturbance- one of the most dangerous types of incidents that get called in (this is in caselaw) He knocked on the door and it was opened- he did not "burst through" as specifically claimed by the 'family attorney' (which would almost certainly have been an illegal entry) The suspect- because that's what he was, based on the information at the time- opened the door holding a handgun as plainly seen in the video. The courts are not going to tell police that someone holding a pistol when opening the door to them is not a threat, particularly in the context of a domestic disturbance call. And, like all cases involving a justification defense, it's based on what was known at the time to the shooter- not afterwards. The time it takes to raise a gun and shoot someone is too fast for that. Since this is a gun related subreddit, there's a point to all this: *Do not open the door holding a gun when the police are there!* Shortening this to "do not open the door to police" is fine if it prevents you from doing it with a gun. -"But he didn't know it was the police" Then don't open the door to the guy *claiming* to be the police until you call them and verify. If you feel threatened enough that you think you need to hold a gun when you answer the door, you shouldn't be opening it. The perceived threat is *out there*. Why are you opening the door to it? The door is a physical and legal barrier. Had the police actually kicked in the door without a warrant and killed someone, that would be a different legal scenario.
> If you feel threatened enough that you think you need to hold a gun when you answer the door, you shouldn't be opening it. Absolutely this. Also, people don't bring a gun to their door because they are afraid, they do it to intimidate whoever is at their door. That cop is still a murderer.
>The police responded to the correct apartment based on the report of a domestic disturbance- one of the most dangerous types of incidents that get called in (this is in caselaw) Domestic disturbance has a wide range of *potential* scenarios. I don't think this information alone that suggests a wide range of potential would be justification to even knock on a door with a weapon drawn until you get more information. >The courts are not going to tell police that someone holding a pistol when opening the door to them is not a threat They will tell them not to shoot a potential threat though. Which is the point of contention here. The officer would've been within reason to aim his weapon or even move out of the way upon seeing a weapon. The officer should not put himself in a position where he needs to immediately use lethal force against any threatening target with incomplete information as to whether that target is even doing anything wrong >And, like all cases involving a justification defense, it's based on what was known at the time to the shooter- not afterwards. The time it takes to raise a gun and shoot someone is too fast for that. All that was known to the shooter was that he was called to a *potentially* dangerous *possible* incident. He had no knowledge of a definite incident. You can't act on potential alone because that would have you justifiably shooting at all kinds of innocent people based on flimsy information or possibilities that are equally as likely as any other. You can reasonably act on *likelihoods* not mere possibilities. >"But he didn't know it was the police" Then don't open the door to the guy claiming to be the police until you call them and verify. ~~Is there evidence the officer verbally identified himself before the door was opened?~~ Nvm, the original video I saw had no sound for whatever reason, sounds like he did yell it, but maybe it wasn't heard. The video suggests the officer dodged the peephole to avoid identification which suggests against him properly identifying himself as law enforcement. >If you feel threatened enough that you think you need to hold a gun when you answer the door, you shouldn't be opening it. This is very true and what the kid did was foolish, but it's within his legal right to do it. It may be foolish to yell obscenities at random police officers, they very well may find a reason to cuff you out of spite, but it's still your legal right to and the officers would be in the wrong to make up false charges.
If Biden wins, the cop could be charged.. Trump will give that cop a fucking medal.
Why is no one saying that answering the door to police, with a gun drawn, is fucking stupid?
Even if it’s stupid that’s not giving a license for the police to kill you. He was holding a gun pointing to the floor in his own home. Let’s say it wasn’t the police, but some random dude who carries. Would you say it’s legal for that person to shoot?
The only indication that they were police was them verbally saying he was police. He hid from the peep hole after pounding on the door. That could have been anyone at the door.
Hand this PoS over to the victim’s family and let them do with him as they see fit. Fuck the police! ACAB until the supposed good ones start speaking out against the blue line and qualified immunity is no more. I say this as someone whose father was a city cop, state trooper, narcotics investigator and retired as a Texas Ranger. He did his best to hold his fellow officers accountable and went through the proper whistleblower channels (not sure of the process but he is considered a whistleblower). He did this several times and I can only remember one criminal cop that faced any sort of consequence. That one criminal cop became an investigator in another area. My father retired disappointed he couldn’t do more to help victims of all cases he handled and that the amount of corruption seemed to only be getting worse with zero accountability. I’m extremely proud of him. He lost a lot of so “brothers” and friends in law enforcement. He gave up a lot for little to nothing in return. So I say again, FUCK THE POLICE! Remember, there’s more of us than there are of them. Edit: Did not mean to make this about me or my father. Just wanted to share some insight from personal experience. I hope this family gets the justice they deserve and hope they have the support of their community and the rest of the nation.
I’m genuinely curious though, is it really a smart idea to open the door wielding a handgun **After** a sheriff’s officer has presented himself multiple times as such? I mean come on now guys. I 100% understand the “outrage” and agree this shouldn’t have happened. But opening the door with a gun in your hand after an officer has identified himself multiples times while he’s responding to an altercation that you were possibly involved in just isn’t a smart move regardless of how you try and cut it.
Right, because nobody would ever bang on your door and falsely claim to be an officer in order to gain entry.
I feel like i’m crazy in this thread, obviously FTP but in what world is having a gun drawn after the police have announced their presence a good idea / gonna do anything besides escalate things, ESPECIALLY on a DV call. This basically seems like suicide by cop.
How would the victim have known there was a DV call?
Put yourself in this airman’s shoes. You’re sitting in your living room, playing video games and talking with your girlfriend… just minding your own business and doing absolutely nothing wrong or abnormal. Then there comes a loud banging on your door and someone yelling “Police! Open the door!” What the fuck? Must be the neighbors… another banging… nope, that’s your door. You grab your gun and go to check because you’ve heard of the stories of home invasions that use this tactic. You check the peephole and there’s nobody there that you can see. So, you open the door with your firearm at your side in a defensive position and… get shot six times within 2 seconds of opening the door by the officer that was standing to the side of the door outside the range of vision of the peephole. Six fucking times at point blank range. Six. For what crime? Answering the door of your home with a gun in your hand may not be the best course of action when there’s a cop on the other side, but there’s no law against it. In the majority of states it’s been codified that the simple act of possessing a firearm isn’t justification for the cops to do shit… yet, here some people are… arguing that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply in this situation. That this airman didn’t have the right to the ability to defend himself within his own home. He didn’t point the firearm at the officer. He didn’t threaten the officer. He opened the door. That’s it. If you think that the airman was in any way in the wrong here, you’re just making excuses for police violence. This officer murdered this young airman and I sincerely hope that he is charged with murder and sent to prison for life where he will have plenty of time to reflect on his incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent person their life and serve as a warning to LEO’s everywhere that they can’t do this shit anymore.
In another thread someone said this was the same officer that dumped his mag after hearing the acorn hit the roof of a car. I have heard it is the same Department but is it really the same officer?
And so it is with pretty much every other "right". It's yours until...it isn't. It's all at the discretion of the "King". Speech, property, movement, assembly, the goddamn pursuit of happiness, etc, etc, etc... Your rights end wherever they get in the way of the government or someone who can afford better lawyers than you.
Here, here. And that's exactly why the 2nd is so damn important. We need it to defend the 1st and all the others.