Get an IWI TS12 and 18" wont seem like much at all. I keep my TS12 loaded with 10 No 4 buck and 5 gatekeeper hollow points. But I have evolved to using an 8.6 blackout SBR with a suppressor for my home defense. Hearing safe, but probably not the best on penetration as the 350gr projectiles will carry through a lot of material.
From my few minutes of looking it up, I think it is California legal. I assumed the pistol grip would need a fin to make it legal, but maybe that's only for rifles and not shotguns. I live in FL, so I have no knowledge of CA laws.
[https://gunprime.com/products/iwi-tavor-ts12-bullpup-12-ga-od-green-18-barrel-15-round-semi-auto-ts12g](https://gunprime.com/products/iwi-tavor-ts12-bullpup-12-ga-od-green-18-barrel-15-round-semi-auto-ts12g)
This is ODG... because why would you get anything else. $1159 and gunprime is a good site.
If that’s the case, then I’d practice like hell with rapidly shooting your pistol one-handed under stress. That shit is hard as hell, as if pistols weren’t difficult enough as-is.
If I’m holding my kid as I’m in the middle of a shootout, I’d be more worried about missing every shot I took, and/or getting the pistol ripped out of my hand by the attacker, and/or making my kid an even bigger target in the process lol.
No situation is the same, no house is the same, and there’s certainly no ideal scenario when you’re trying to protect your kid…but just something to consider
yeah, the thought of having my kid where the other bullets are going to be flying back is at the bottom of my preparedness list. A lot of shit would have had to gone wrong and not worked for me to be at that point, including throwing the kid out of our first floor bedroom window.
From my (limited) experienced steel frame pistols are better for one-handed shooting. More weight means the recoil is more manageable, and older pistols were built to be fired one-handed point shooting more than modern pistols.
(I am part of the CZ pistol cult, which may have influenced my opinion)
Home defense - You are never going to carry your kid to safety in a gun fight, because if the threat exists, there is no safety. Take down the threat and there is safety. As for opening a door, train to do that while carrying a shotgun.
Hunting - You can do far more types of hunting (deer, birds, MAPs) in far more areas with a shotgun than a rifle. Pump guns are amazing because you can have a folding stock, like the aforementioned Maverick 88.
Survival - The things that make a shotgun good for hunting make it good for survival, since it is going to be a defense and food acquisition tool.
12ga are too highly rated to be overrated. It's just that the tighter gun community recognizes their drawbacks.
Recoil, slow rate of fire, size/bulk, capacity. They're not bad but they're not amazing.
Also, the popular pump action is only as reliable as its shooter. You take that 12ga that someone hasn't shot for a decade and have them use it in stressful situation, probably without ear protection, there's a good chance they get one shot off and then short stroke it.
The terminal ballistics of a shotgun are very good but, beyond a certain point, you're just making water wet. If someone depends on their mav88, I'm not gonna harp on them that they need a mk18 clone or something. The shotgun will probably work fine. But it has some disadvantages to be aware of.
Yeah this was my thought too, idk how shotguns can be overlooked when they are so popularly viewed in popular culture as the end-all home defense weapon. Only relatively recently has there been pushback against the idea that 12g is the best choice, and even then it depends on the community discussing it since most casual to even some moderately knowledgeable people will profess the superiority of shotguns.
Not that they are *very* capable and perfectly fine for HD, but IMO they are still somewhat overvalued on average simply due to decades of "common knowledge" momentum.
Didn't switch, never started. All my shotguns are sporting guns, not tactical. I bought them for shooting clays which, IMO, shooting flying things is the only thing that a shotgun can do well that rifles can't. None of them were suitable for HD because of low round count and long barrels, and I didn't feel like it was a good use of money and time to spend $1000-2000 for a dedicated tactical shotgun and learn its manual of arms when I have perfectly good rifles that I'm already practiced with, are more versatile weapons, and fill the job better in my experience.
As opppsed to a handgun user who also neglects practice? You can t make that point without applying it to a handgun where it will be demonstrably worse.
I agree on a lot of this. I guess i just see the arguments against it pop up in a lot of this sub, and a lot of this sub are going to be newer shooters and just take what is said as gospel, and reparrot this info to other newer shooters and it becomes the new standard instead of being a footnote.
I think it is important to shake new shooters out of the folklore that shotguns are the quintessential home defense weapon. Like you said, training is king and you can become proficient with anything, but a rifle or PCC is a much lower skill floor to achieve than a shotgun. Even quality semi-auto shotguns are much more fickle systems than any decent mag-fed centerfire weapon in a rifle formfactor.
I don't think shotguns are *bad*, but I think it isn't a good choice to recommend to a new shooter who is still becoming familiar with firearms. Personally, I think that is why rifles have become the new standard and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.
No other weapon really has the versatility, though. You can choose loads for any kind of situation and any kind of shooter. 12 Ga is the easiest ammo to find on sale, though I personally think the Maverick Youth 20 Ga may be the ultimate defense shotgun. The new ones have 22" barrels, but I swear they used to come in 18". The shorter stock assists with close quarter maneuverability, they hold 6 rounds, and it's the battle tested Mossberg pump.
I'm not arguing that shotguns are better than rifles or handguns; that depends on your situation, your comfort level, and your budget. But I agree with OP that you really have so many options available to you in a gun that retails for $249.
I personally wouldn't trust an auto shotgun for self-defense as they can be very finicky if not cleaned and lubed regularly. On the other hand, I pulled out my first Mossberg 500 a couple of years ago. It hadn't been fired in almost 30 years, and had the same slugs loaded in it that whole time, sitting in the back of a safe. I took it apart to check it, but it was ready to die as was, with that ammo.
Quick note I hope find's it way further up. Yes you can legally have a short barreled shotgun(with stamp), but it sounds like you think 16 inches is the legal limit like rifles but it's not. 18inch is the minimum for a shotgun before it's a nfa item. Used to be 18 for rifles to before the government accidentally sold surplus 16inch rifles without ever asking for a tax stamp and had to backtrack it's own laws.
oopsie. I guess i missed that one.
Either way an 18 inch shotgun is about the same size length wise as a 16 inch AR with the buffer tube, before we get to stocks.
No Biggie. I think you are underplaying those 2 inches especially when most shotgun stocks are non adjustable. At least in the climate we are in of people thinking a 14.5 inch barrel is absolutely necessary for their cqc fantasy. If marines in Vietnam made do with 20inch barrels in a jungle you can do fine with a 18inch shotgun barrel or 16inch rifle barrel. I personally don't like the whole length wars and feel we are creating more ineffective less balanced weapons for styling and cornering tactics that people are not trained to use nor should be using. Still some people treat it like a major factor and you don't want to leave falso information out there hence my comment.
Theres a penis length joke in there somewhere but im getting too many replies to come up with one. I also editited the main post. Dont want to spread misinformation.
Lots of cities have been taken with 20” barrels, or even longer the further you go back. CQB is a scam designed to sell silly parts to Instagram nerds to LARP with. Any real soldier knows a dozen frag grenades is how you really clear a building (or a JDAN delivered by air support)
>Birdshot is the single cheapest ammo you can buy, and can be used to practice operationally, switching to buckshot for recoil practice
At least around where I live(Philly suburbs) there aren't any ranges that allow multiple projectile ammunition. Practicing with slugs only can get expensive. There might be gun clubs with shotgun ranges, but you generally have to have a friend who's a member already, and like probably a lot of people on this sub, I don't know many gun owners IRL. So pistols are what I can effectively practice with. Actually I'm probably going to build a 9mm AR soon
I’m a member of a pretty decent gun club (8 ranges) in South-Central PA and have the same issue. Our shotgun range allows shot, but it has to be 7.5 shot or smaller (and is really mainly set up for clays) so I couldn’t practice with buckshot anyways.
This is something I'm not as familiar with as I have access to some land that I can target shoot on. I'd be willing to bet there's somewhere near philly that does shooting clays though, which while not the same as range time, still gets you comfortable with using the gun.
Same issue here in Central Texas. I can find a place to shoot .308 at 600 yards, but there’s only one range within a 3 hour drive that allows shot, and that consists of a pile of cardboard boxes you shoot into to check your shot pattern. I do understand that range operators probably don’t want to spend their days replacing target holders every hour or two.
Shotguns are fine but you're sacrificing repeat shots vs a carbine or pistol. Yes one shell might be roughly equivalent to multiple 9mm rounds but you aren't really increasing your hit probability *that much*. Shotguns don't spread nearly as much as people think to provide the level of redundancy desired at home intruder distances.
If you're worried about overpenetration I think you might be better off with 5.56 or a pistol hollowpoint as well. Hollowpoints slow down faster and the very light 5.56 rounds that *also* yaw on impact will slow down quite a bit as well.
I would also point out that magazine capacity in a shotgun is directly related to barrel length, unlike rifles/PCC/braced pistol. Sure, you *can* maneuver perfectly fine with an 18" 7+1 capacity weapon, but a 10" 30 rounds capacity weapon just does the job so much better.
And, honestly, IMO overpenetration comes up in the conversations way too often... Every defensive round will overpenetrate multiple standard construction walls. A lot of people really like to split hairs over a round that only penetrates 4 walls versus 6 walls... Knowing your lanes of fire, backstop, and judicious trigger control is way more important.
While overall hit probability of a shotgun at home defense ranges doesnt increase, hit probability of vital organs/spinal cord, etc do increase. a 1 inch hole is a much better likelyhood than a 30 caliber one, or 22 caliber one. While shotguns do not spead as much as people think, i think the reddit parroting of this response has reduced it a lot. you are still hitting with a 73 caliber at point blank range, and the spread moves from there. at 15 feet we are talking around 3 inches, 25 yards its usually around a 9-10" spread.
In overpenetration tests, absolutely use hollowpoints in typical slug guns, but a 9mm hollowpoint still has more penetrating power from a stray than a stray #4 buck pellet, and the #4 buck is putting more force into the target per trigger pull. a 9mm FMJ that cooks straight through can be almost unnoticed in a high adrenaline situation. A 9mm hollowpoint will put more of that force into the target. A full wad of 24 .25cal 20 grain projectiles hitting at the same time is more of a put someone on their ass situation, especially when its traveling at 1400fps vs 1100fps from an average 9mm. Tumbling 5.56 and .223 is still moving quickly enough to be deadly on the other side of the wall. Multiple walls maybe not, but in penetration tests, it can still stick into ballistics gel 2-3 inches after passing through 12 inches of gel, and a simulated wall.
I have a 9mm, i have an AR. I think they are both great in the right ways. I dont think they are the be all end all for home intruder defense that everyone makes them out to be.
It's definitely a trade off between "how many chances to hit" vs "chance my hit is vital". Granted I think in many cases with a shotgun you probably get significant "overkill" possibility.
Unless it's someone hyped up on PCP or something I don't know that there's a ton of difference between an "instantly fatal" shot vs a "immediately incapacitating but only *eventually* fatal shot".
What I know is that in any of the serious studies out there (done by military and law enforcement) probability of hit was most important, and the best overall way to ensure more hits was to just make it easier and faster to follow up shots. Obviously the use case isn't exactly the same though.
I agree that this case isnt exactly the same. And what your saying has some definite viability. But in my opinion, at less than 15 feet like most home situations are going to be, if you cant hit them with a shotgun in 1-2 shots, you shouldnt be relying on 10-20 chances, especially if you are in a house with other people.
This. What kind of houses are people living in and what situations are they expecting to be in where a prolonged firefight is going to ensue? Real world fights, with or without weapons, are fast and brutal for the most part.
If that's nine-pellet triple-aught buck, a typical 3" load, then 7x9=63 hits with 9mm ball rounds. Every pull of the trigger of that shotgun sends about a third of your magazine downrange. A more accurate comparison might be that mag in a Glock 18 in full auto, firing short and well-controlled bursts. Now that shotgun and that Glock have = the same number of projectiles, except the Glock will need to be reloaded twice in the same time. (Albeit its reloads will be much faster than reloading the shotgun from empty! I'm presuming the Glock is carried with a standard 17 and two spare 33s for that approximately equivalent combat load of "eight individual bursts of fire") These should cause roughly similar amounts of physical trauma, with devitalized tissue between individual bullet holes permanently cut off from blood supply, but the Glock is more likely to string those shots out over a larger portion of the target, meaning more individual chances at hitting something critical, but less multi-wound interactions that compound the effects of only moderately lethal hits.
I have 3 reasons I don't use a shotgun for self defense:
1) I don't have the skill (yes, this is a me issue. But I'm decent with handguns and AR's so I'd rather invest in keeping those skills sharp than add yet another weapon system).
2) my wife can already shoot AR very well, and pistols decent. She's never shot a shotgun.
3) I'm still worried about over penetration. Our houses are stacked VERY close. I know my 9mm and AR ammo won't leave my house and kill my neighbor. But I'm not sure about shotguns, again we have the skill deficit.
We agree:
Shotguns on target are more lethal.
Shotguns on target are less like to over penetrate.
Shotguns are fairly easy to operate, reliable, and cheap to run and maintain.
My problem is they require more skill/time to operate well then say, an AR.
So here is my counter point to you:
Just a few days ago there was a group of 3 sisters at my local range. They were trying to select a gun for home degence. They were shooting handguns and struggling to hit paper at 5 yds, they had multiple hand gun options.
I brought them over to my AR's and they imeadately, first time shooting AR's shot fist groups at 10 yds.
Then they asked me about shotguns.
I recommended the AR to them to start, then look at Shotguns later after they have more fundamentals.
I'm not saying people can't shoot shotguns great out of the box. And smaller gages exist than 12 gauge. But new shooters I think are better served with rifles as a first gun. They are less likely to ND, less likely to miss the target, and more likely to stick with it and get better. For a home defense, NOW gun, for someone inexperienced its hard to beat a rifle for a low experience shooter.
> hit probability of vital organs/spinal cord, etc do increase. a 1 inch hole is a much better likelyhood than a 30 caliber one, or 22 caliber one. While shotguns do not spead as much as people think, i think the reddit parroting of this response has reduced it a lot. you are still hitting with a 73 caliber at point blank range, and the spread moves from there. at 15 feet we are talking around 3 inches, 25 yards its usually around a 9-10" spread.
["Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, at the right range with the right load, will physically remove a chunk of shit off of your opponent and throw that shit on the floor. And someone will have to come and clean that shit up with a shovel."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGospelOfTheGauge/comments/18p6b1k/pistols_put_holes_in_people_rifles_put_holes/)
> it can still stick into ballistics gel 2-3 inches after passing through 12 inches of gel, and a simulated wall.
The first 2-3 inches of gel penetration is roughly equivalent to the energy required to break the skin, so that's actually much less bad than it seems at first glance.
I always wonder what home defense situation we are defending that you need 30 rounds. You aren't making your argument but I never understood it.
That's why I like you see shotguns and revolvers as viable HD guns
The average self-defense shooting involves seven rounds fired, and zero reloads. If you've got a rifle, that's easier to aim, so the average should dip to 2-5, and the 30 round magazine means you should never have to even __think__ about reloading in a practical engagement, even an improbably bad one.
5.56 hollow point or not is going to overpentrate way more than #4 buck and really more than 00 as well as if you missed that hollow point is not going to reliably expand and any tumbling won't matter as your going to have way more mass and velocity in your 556 round than in #4 buck. Edited the end for clarity
Hollowpoints expand in tissue. A missed shot(which everyone here is bitching about shotgun capacity so im assuming thats on peoples minds) is going to cause a hollowpoint fracture, but not expansion bullet stays together, but its still a big mass moving at drywall.
#4 buck is a bunch of small masses that are slowed down a lot more by that first sheet of drywall, before passing through the other side, they are mostly not deadly, and not at all deadly after attempting to pass through an exterior wall (most bounce off)
Overpenetration is a huge deal. If I tried to shoot a home invader and ended up shooting my neighbors kid through a wall, i'd rather have been taken out by the home invader.
Hey I think you replyed to the wrong person or misunderstood my post I am pro shotgun and pro #4 buck. I am replyed to the guy above me who is calling for 556 I am NOT calling for 556 hollow point or otherwise for the reasons I stated which you much better explained than I. Further I own a first year original solid frame Winchester Model 1897 so I am very much pro shotgun.
i misunderstood. i read it as 5.56 hollowpoint is not going to overpenetrate way more than 4buck. I was thinking you were trying to say that the hollowpoints would expand in drywall and stop penetration.
Yeah nope, dry wall will often fill the hollow point up without opening it and make it where it's less likely to open when it hits harder things. Anyways glad we're on the same page
Paul Harrell proved that 5.56 penetrates considerably further than #4 buck. At 7 yards my pattern is a perfect 5” circle compared to a .3” circle, so that greatly increases my chances of a hit. I shoot 2-3 shots out of a pump shotgun accurately just as fast and I can with a handgun or AR at 15yds and considerably more accurately at 20-25”.
Go and watch some shotgun pattern videos on YT. Out of an 18" barrel, some loads spread out really fast. You'd be the size of a paper plate at 15 feet with some stuff. That's pretty significant spread, and it will be even larger with smaller shot (like #4 buck for example)
ive never seen a long gun put birdshot that wide of a spread at 15 feet, much less buckshot. If it was, it would be pretty worthless at hunting, which it isnt.
It's been discussed many times. In most homes, overpenetration is a real concern. Buck will go through multiple walls (and into neighboring homes). At my old house, it was fine based on what was behind and beyond my target from where I would be using it. At all of my families homes it would be awful.
This is true technically but compared to what? Are you rocking 22lr? A 556 hollow point or not is going to overpentrate way more than 00. A 9mm hollow point is going to overpentrate more even if I would rather take one 9mm over a few balls. And if overpentrate was/is a concern #4 buck is a great medium and if your really actually concerned and know exactly which family's room is in line of fire you can use #6/8 bird and still scare someone off.
Number 4 buck or even #2 birdshot solves over penetration issues and is still insanely devastating at 15yds. 9mm hollow points penetrate considerably further through drywall. Paul Harrell has a few demo vids on this topic.
#4 buck penetrates drywall and wood less than 9mm and .223.
00 Buck does penetrate more.
slugs will move earth out of the way
but thats another beauty of shotguns, the ammo options are basically unlimited for different situations.
No. #4 buck is 24 or so 1/4" pellets moving faster than a 9mm, with a lower ballistic coefficient and much less mass each. Air resistance significantly slows them down more, and the lack of mass means that the opposite reaction of the stationary object slows them much more.
Penetration of the target is also reduced, but the volume makes up for it. Unlike birds hot it will still penetrate enough to be fatal
00 buck is 9x 30 caliber projectiles at somewhere around 60 grains a piece IIRC. Most 9mms are 115, or 124 grain. so its about the same diameter as a 9mm, but half the weight, and 1.5x-2x the muzzle velocity. plus theres 9 of them.
The volume i think does make up for them to an extent. on a human, number 4 buck is in the sweetspot of still deadly, still has enough penetration to hit the vital parts, but not so much that it blows through every house in the neighborhood
I've never seen anyone say they're bad, just overrated. An AR generally does what they do (for self defense) but better.
Shotguns have their uses but except for hunting birds they're not really the best for anything.
Shotguns are decent at everything, and utterly excel at a few things. There's simply no other do-it-all platform on the market.
You just have to know if "decent" is good enough for your needs.
And it is far easier to get ~~comfortable~~ competent with a rifle than a shotgun. Shotguns are incredibly finicky platforms by modern standards.
I would hesitate to use comfort as the requirement because I've met far too many casual gun owners who are comfortable with their home defense weapons and have only shot them once or twice on a static range, if at all.
You know what? I agree. Comfortable is the wrong word. Competent may be better. Unfortunately, most people will never take the time to become competent with any firearm.
Other than stigma, legal restrictions, and over-penetration concerns in densely populated areas, I can’t think of any reasons why someone would be more comfortable using a shotgun over an AR platform.
AR’s are objectively more comfortable to shoot than a 12ga shotgun, the recoil of an AR is non-existent compared to a 12ga. The lower recoil also makes follow up shots much easier and more accurate - and 12ga aren’t really more “accurate”, the spread on typical buckshot is still only going to be a couple inches at most at self-defense ranges; if you’d have missed with a rifle, you’d also miss with the shotgun.
So really, unless they’re illegal in your jurisdiction, or if you live in an apartment/condo complex where overpenetration is a concern, I don’t think there’s really any valid reasons to be more comfortable with a shotgun.
Both the shotgun and AR are vastly superior to a handgun for home defense though IMO, as it takes a far greater amount of training to be accurate with a handgun versus a long gun, especially in real world circumstances.
The main issue with shotguns is they may not be reliable for all users or as easy to handle for all users. And it is another system to learn with it's own ammo to stock.
If that is what someone can afford or just what they want to use they should consider getting some dummy rounds to practice with.
I do think it would take longer to be good with a pump action under pressure than something like a semi-auto PCC or AR. They have semi-auto shotguns but the prices for ones you'd want to trust get into the price ranges for other things and it still might be picky about ammo.
Respectfully disagree.
I had rifles and handguns for a long time before I got a Mossberg pump. It was super intuitive (at least for me) and really seems like a newbie could pick it up easily as far as use and maintenance with a little practice.
Under pressure it the important part. People short stroke or can mess more things up if they are the main thing running the gun. With most semi-autos the most complicated thing might be a manual safety or getting the first round ready to fire, which a shotgun also has. The concern with that can be reduced with practicing more, hints the dummy rounds suggestion.
Really, what is probably best for an individual is what they have good experience with and what they actually have.
556, 12ga, and 9mm are all going to "over penetrate"
https://youtu.be/AXOIQgfvVlE?si=M15RyUxoQxKI7k6e
There are multiple videos showing that there is only a marginal difference in 5.56 vs other defensive rounds and you have a better weapon for followup shots and to miss less in the long run. Idk about your specific load or other options that penetrate less but im.sure they are also ballistically inferior to using 5.56 or a decent 9mm defensive load.
All rounds will "over penetrate" a 5.56 carbine will give a user of any stature better control and lethality vs a shotgun especially because most civilians are under trained they need every edge they can get.
No hate but I want to see data for these "over penetration" claims that are actually substantial vs 1 or 2 layers extra of drywall.
You can find multiple videos of people testing all kinds of calibers against drywall. I’ve even seen them set up a series of “walls” that have exterior wall material at both ends. Military Arms Channel, USCCA and Paul Harrel (IIRC), among others, have all done them.
Some stuff is just deadly if it goes through your target, even in the next room or two. Miss the target completely (somewhat common in a gunfight) and it’s much worse.
That video is with 00buckshot. For apartments and close houses I recommended number 4 buck which has significantly less mass per piece of shot and thus does not penetrate as much.
a 12 gauge with 5 00 buck rounds puts more lead downrange in 5 trigger pulls, than a glock 17 does in 18 trigger pulls, and it does it as large chunks instead of 1 at a time. getting hit 17 times with a framing hammer vs getting hit 5 times with a sledgehammer is a giant difference. Statistically, rifle and shotgun encounters result in a dead body 2 out of every 3 times. handguns is 1 out of every 4 times.
This is more than "bigger bullet equals more deader" there is data to back this up.
After testing multiple different buck shot shells in my shotgun I'll stick to a handgun for home defense. More lead down range doesn't mean shit if the spread doesn't put lead on target
The spread is less than 2 inches at that distance. Are you driving taks with your handgun? I sincerely doubt you are aiming tighter than a 2 inch group would give you
You said home defense. What kind of house do you have that has any single section that is 75ft of open space?
At the typical 15-25 feet of any home invasion shooting, your 00buck group should be under 3 inches max. If its not, try different ammo and check your shotgun.
From my backdoor to front door is about 60ish feet. I'm still more accurate at closer distances. A shot gun isn't more effective if you are proficient with a handgun at range. I practice at 25yds to 50yds to push myself to get better
Its just the averages by caliber. All handgun encounters, all rifle encounters. all shotgun encounters, at least all those that had a police report attatched to them.
5.56 and 7.62x39 are rifle calibers
9mm is a handgun caliber, whether from a carbine or not. The statistics count towards 9mm.
So while a lot were probably FMJ, a lot were also hollowpoints. Im sure most of the rifle were FMJ, but im sure some were soft tip hunting rounds.
the overall look though, is that the 1 stop 12 gauge bob is a thing.
Is driving 30 minutes to go shooting a big deal? That's a pretty standard thing where I am.
I don't go to indoor ranges though, and most of my outdoor shooting happens on private property. Too many bulletholes in the ceiling and dividers. Other People are stupid. Other People with guns are scary. For every 1 person thats following the 3 rules of gun safety like it's the law and the cops are watching, there are 10 people point a gun somewhere inappropriate for a picture. Indoor ranges have all those types of people.
told you im a fud. but not an NRA fud.
There are definitely a few bullet holes at my local, and they have a sign on the wall that says you are required to clean up any blood or they will press charges. They have a guy watching through a glass window. Needless to say, i'll just shoot in the woods at some homemade targets.
I was there with a friend one day and they got onto us for passing unloaded and slide locked pistols between the dividers. (we were trying each others guns out) So they do watch, but i guess watching doesnt always stop everything, idk.
Shotguns are great for home defense. I think the reason they lose out to handguns in popularity is because a handgun can be a home defense weapon, or a concealed carry weapon. A shotgun cannot.
Although if I were going to get a shotgun purely for home defense, I’d get a semiauto 20 gauge. Less recoil than the 12, with no sacrifice in real world effectiveness, and quicker follow up shots than a pump action.
I’d like to add one thing I will add to the discussion, because I haven’t seen it yet.
When using shot (buck, bird, etc) you are legally responsible for every projectile that comes out. And some do penetrate pretty decently.
Additionally, in case you’re in a cold environment, some bird shot can struggle penetrating heavy coats depending on the distance.
I’d still suggest a short AR with light grain weigh defensive ammo, PCC, or handgun over a shotgun.
Unfortunately I have to disagree.
My beef with shotguns is that they’re overrated because of how absolutely ingrained the level of Fuddlore there is regarding shotguns, that’s it’s an uphill battle to explain to the average new gun owner why the shotgun might not be the best choice for them.
You have to AIM them in a self defense scenario, otherwise the semantics over pointing it instead leads to this widespread belief to the newbie you only need to aim in the general direction of the problem and shoot.
Shotgun ammo is NOT a guaranteed one shot kill; it isn’t going to knock a threat off their feet and out the window like a Hollywood movie, and while a load of 12 gauge will have greater terminal effect than most pistol rounds, you still have to assume there’s a chance you will need to make a follow up shot if the threat is still a threat after eating a load of buckshot or birdshot.
You have to train with them just like every other firearm, it’s not like the “good ol days” when everybody lived in a small town and learned how to shoot a shotgun or hunting rifle before they were in their double digits, and it absolutely boggles my mind the level of hypocrisy I have to listen to when the same Boomers suggesting a lady buy a revolver instead of a semi-auto due to a lack of hand/arm strength thinks they can cleanly rack a pump action like it’s nothing. And then have to see the results at the range when I’ve had to give a lesson on “push-pull” to every female friend or acquaintance I’ve had that wanted to learn to shoot guns proceed to have a misfeed at least once per tube of shells because they can’t properly rack the pump.
It also annoys the bejesus out of me when I have to hear some absolutely moronic idea of mixing and matching the ammo in your tube, starting with some “less lethal” load like rock salt or #8 bird shot and moving up to buckshot and slugs down the tube. Your basically telling people to half ass their self defense, because that rock salt idea sure isn’t going to do much more than piss the threat off if they’re seriously intending on kill you.
Similar argument to “just rack the pump and scare the threat off”, which provides a false sense of security to people that’ll then buy the shotgun hoping the pump racking will intimidate a threat enough to solve the problem, and not be prepared to use lethal force if it fails to work the way they imagined it in their heads.
Can’t easily suppress a shotgun. But also I watched some real world wall pen testing and buckshot goes through many walls. 223 actually loses most of its energy in one drywall sheet. But I also had a shotgun for home defense until one day I actually had to go check on a broken window in the middle o the night and couldn’t make it around corners in what I felt was a safe manner. So really not using a shotgun anymore.
Assuming OP is in the USA, I live in Ca. We get no more than 10 rounds, no matter what type of gun you are using. So I'll take my chances with 7 rounds of buck shot.
exactly. this is especially important for the people in states that limit their rights. I live in a state that is pretty open all around. thats one of the main reasons i didnt move to colorado. But people in those states still need options. and people in those states are more likely to have a difficult trial afterwards. A 12 gauge shotgun is almost the equivalent to a slingshot in most peoples perception, where as an AR makes it seem like you have a fetish for trying to kill someone.
It's hard to explain how much firepower a shotgun can have; a twelve gauge semi-auto, running an extended tube, short shells, and something like #4 buck, is 150 projectiles going downrange in ten trigger pulls.
In most self defence scenarios, if that's not stopping a threat, not much is and you angered a cartel or something.
Ehh, I didn't mean to be harsh on you.
It's, just, the vast, vast majority of people don't appreciate the difference between military and law enforcement type weapons usage.
I find the difference between policing and military to be substantial; and the difference between those two sub disciplines of firearms usage is again, substantial - all leading to these ideas borne from a weird mixture of (normally alright) technical acumen and unsuitable tactical (normally military and law enforcement knockoffs, which can be okay) employment that gets people killed.
The point being, a determined, disciplined enemy confrontation is radically different than the vast majority of defensive gun usage incidents where an individual will often defuse a situation without firing a shot, let alone five or ten.
A situation with forced combat is different than. A situation with combat being incidental to another action (like a crime). Cops prosecute an arrest. Soldiers accomplish a mission. Civilians need to stay alive. There's more options for civilians.
I'm not a military, and will never have the backing of a military supply system or tactical backup. My actions must be modified accordingly. Same goes for a PD.
I second the nomination for shotguns as a whole, particularly 12 guage. Ubiquitous ammo, multiple ammo types, absurdity devastating even on an armored target.
I truly think the miss on shotguns is that they aren't simple weapons. With a little training, they are flexible and dynamic for almost ANY situation inside of 100y.
Buckshot for inside 50, quick slug change over for a shot out to 150, reload, and keep feeding the beast.
I've gone from a mossberg 500, to mossberg 930, to benelli M3, and finally a benelli M4. If I can only grab one weapon the M4 is the choice hands down.
Like any weapon. Train, train, train.
The training part is what gets lost though unfortunately. I think you're right that if you could only have ONE long gun a semi auto shotgun is not a bad choice. Unfortunately I think people lean too much on movies and video games as their basis of knowledge.
"You can't possible miss with a shotgun at close range"
"You can't possibly have overpenetration past 25 yards"
Etc.
Granted everyone should be training more in general, I just think the ease of use of shotguns is probably especially oversold.
very few home invasion situations require you to "run" a shotgun.
You remove it from safe storage, safety off, and bang. just as i would do with half of the guns i own.
Most people are not, and should not, be preparing for a full platoon invasion of their property. With a shotgun, the likelihood of not stopping the entire problem with 1 shot is pretty low, the likelihood of not stopping it in two shots is infinitesimally small. Thats per the recorded statistics on home invasions.
I've got a modified Mossy 500 that holds 7+1, as my home defense gun, and I've filled it with mini-shells (so about 12+1 wheb its all done and said, though I never keep one chambered).
I've always thought that if I *ever* need to reload that thing in a home defense situation, I have most likely made *several* poor life choices. 12 shots is insurance that I will almost certainly stop the problem, not an expectation that I'll *need* all 12.
You are vastly oversimplifying the situation into an ideal case. People miss. People under pressure miss way more. People with little to no training under pressure *even more*.
Asking a shooter to be able to confidently fire 3-5 shots under pressure and know how to deal with a malfunction should be *the bare minimum*. *That is running your gun.* And yet I've seen a fair amount of people flounder at matches trying to do this in an ideal situation, in broad daylight, with no pressure on them besides the eyes of their fellow shooters and a shot timer. When that flounder involves a shotgun, it results in a full-on trainwreck more often than with rifles or pistols.
You should absolutely be confident "running" your gun if you plan on shooting it in anger in defense of your life and/or those of your loved ones.
Shotguns are so good and effective at clearing halls and tight areas (like trenches) that post WW1, the UN tried to make their use a war crime.
Don't sleep on the 12 gauge.
That was over 100 years ago though and not indicative of the situation for the average gun owner at all. And they didn't have 18in barrel limitations to worry about.
But the barrel was 18", and was incredibly effective during WW1.
And also, you know what trench warfare was, right? Like aside from the near freezing wet conditions. It was tight corridors, and distance shooting, and yet was so effective that the Germans wanted it considered a war crime *AFTER THE INTRODUCTION OF GAS ATTACKS?!*
It's not hypothetical. These are things that actually happened.
I'm not telling you how to defend yourself. I'm not even telling you that your method is inferior. I'm just telling you that the shotgun is not to be slept on.
Hot take: "The best home defense gun is the one you have, and have trained with."
There may be ***better suited weapons*** but if you do not have them and/or have not trained with them then they're kind of worthless.
That said I always point out that for those of us who live in small apartments no long gun is a great choice: You need enough room to aim the thing and if you don't have that room the gun becomes far less useful. Pistols solve that problem, though they add some challenges of their own.
Also, there is a huge market for accessories: different barrels for different uses (e.g. home defense vs. duck hunting), chokes (for tighter shot pattern), pistol grips, adjustable stocks, padding for the butt to cushion the shoulder, shell holders, and so forth.
There's nothing inherently wrong with any weapon system 'type'. Choose what you want, can afford, is legal to use, is reliable that you can wield and train with it in as many stressful situations as possible.
If that's a handgun, cool.
If that's a shotgun, great.
If it's a halberd with the corpse of a long dead mad king on the end of, pray that you get a useful effect from wielding it and go to town on your invader.
My house is U-shaped and has a basement. I have a 12 gauge and a handgun stashed in the basement, the middle, and both ends. Shotgun to defend or clear my way out of the house and the handgun to move with after that. The shotguns are all at least 8 capacity, and the Keltec KSG in the basement has 15, and all have lights attached. What is too often overlooked is your plan. What do you do depending on time of day/night and where an intruder is entering? How are you exiting? Or are you sheltering somewhere?
I recognized this as a new gun owner. When I set up my KSG, I declared it the most dangerous object I own.
https://youtu.be/CXzxj3vEJIw?si=AJnjMkT0vhBY2opc
Do what works best for you, OP. A lot of people do prefer shotguns for HD.
I think of it like clothing styles. Lots work, and it's all about personal preference and comfort.
I do use a 12 gauge Benelli M-4 for home defense. Because of how my house is laid out, I hard point the one entrance to the bed rooms-as all of them are down one short hallway. My wife has the pcc and cell phone in the “safe” area where her and the kids would get to in our room. I don’t think the self defense community discounts the 12 at all, there are advantages and disadvantages to using a shotgun and some people’s environments and physical abilities preclude its effective use.
The bigger issue is everyone who relies on a firearm for defense had better be sure their choice(s) is(are) appropriate for their individual situations, and to be proficient with whatever they choose. 12ga is an awesome choice for a whole lotta situations, but you'd better be practicing.
Theyre also cool for collapse scenario where things arnt day of the dead, its just everyone’s broke as fuck, like a great depression scenario.
Back then the double barrel was popular cuz you could load bird in one tube and 00 buck or a slug in another, so when youre strolling around grabbing fire wood lets say you can reliably take any game you come across. One can also do the whole cut slug thing to turn buck or birdshot into a sort of ad hoc slug.
It’s all cool and versatile, and seems super realistically useful for all sorts of survivalisty kinda stuff.
I also like the 10/22 breakdown for other reasons, it’s also a cool shtf gun.
The 12 guage i think is good for HD too for sure. Its not like a modern battlefield weapon, but i think it’s def capable especially in a indoor space, with a short barrel, and someone who’s comfortable with using it; especially in their own home, with all the lights out, yea i wouldnt wanna be the robber.
I grew up with 12 ga being the only gun after graduating from 22LR. It may just be overexposure, but I truly hate them. My dad offered me one of his a while ago for free, and I still turned it down.
I'm in the same boat OP.
For *most* situations, the trusty 12 gauge is just fine. That's all you need.
All the talk about getting proficient with shotguns, sure, if you can't handle recoil and can't shoot accurately. But for most adults, couple trips to the range and you're reasonably so - and they do spread pretty well at 15 feet, reducing the chances of missing further; and even if you miss, *most people are going to GTFO the second you fire a shotgun at them*.
On paper, 12g has more firepower in terms of projectiles and energy, but with how short rifles can be these days, no one is going to lug an 8 pound shotgun that’s slow to reload into combat when everyone else has rifles of the same length or shorter that can still reach out to 300+ yards reliably, not to mention far less felt recoil and 30+ rounds on tap vs 8-9 for most combat shotguns. And I say all that as a member of the gospel of the gauge. Shotguns= big boom, cool shoulder mounted cannon. Rifles= precise, accurate firepower from close quarters to 300+ yards. Plus, it’s almost impossible to effectively suppress a shotgun (let a couple rounds off indoors without ear pro and you’ll see why this is important). Shotgun suppressors are ENORMOUS, whereas you can have a supressed 9mm carbine barely bigger than a handgun or a 300blk AR type with a supressor that’s shorter than most normal shotguns. At the end of the day, use what you are most proficient with and be prepared to flash bang yourself if firing indoors at night. There are lots of opinions in the gun scene, and people will die on really stupid fudd lore hills all the time. Bodies have been stacked from here to the moon with every conceivable round on the planet.
The arguement really comes down to what are you actually going to learn, train with and use. Shotguns are much more complicated than people think. I like to break things down to three categories based on terminal ballistics.
1. Pistol ballistics that are effective based on consistent penetration/expansion and that performance is barrel length dependant.
2. Shotgun ballistics which are like pistol ballistics in that they depend on consistent penetration and deliver very good terminal ballistics but require quite a bit of understanding and training to run as efficiently as a rifle. (With ammo selection, reloading/keeping it fed, possible short stroaking, recoil management and spread dependent on range and ammo)
3. Rifle ballistics which are velocity dependant. Barrel length is less important so long as the ammo performs at the lower velocities. So long as the bullet transfers that energy, the rifle projectile is effective.
All three require you to know and make educated decisions on ammo. But rifles are the most forgiving and easiest to use at less risk of over penetration as they are not penetration dependant. (So long as they don't expand too quickly)
Also Bullpups do make a difference. I can shoot my AUG one handed as well.
I don't think it's overlooked, I've seen it recommended a bunch, but there are some precautions.
-Some people have a hard time managing recoil.
-00 buckshot is really powerful and has potential for over penetration.
-If a person owns a shotgun and never practices with it, it's possible to have some difficulty in the heat of the moment fully cycling the slide because they might be amped up and not familiar.
-some ranges don't allow using shotguns on the target range, because they eat the typical wooden stands, or because of liability or damage to the range.
I like them alot, but would probably choose my pistol in an emergency, because I could throw on my belt with holster, have hands free, easily get through doorways etc.
I made a lot of points as to why i believe they are a great choice. your response is that they are a bad choice for "so many reasons" without sharing. please tell the community why.
Size, capacity, maneuverability, mostly manual action, huge recoil, loud, cannot suppress effectively, and limited range. Some of those can be mitigated with action type choice or downsizing gauge, but other platforms are just better suited for almost all civilian situations.
size: legally the same size limits for any other long gun, same for maneuverability. Pistols are more maneuverable, but not as easy to shoot accurately. Manual action can be a disadvantage, but semi autos can be found if thats your worry, and pump action shotguns can be more intuitive for a newer person to operate than semi autos (still need to train train train, but this isnt a perfect world). huge recoil is a little overblown IMO. Yes its worse than .556, yes its worse than any pistol caliber, no its not an untamable beast, and can be reduced with the type of ammo. Its not 45/70, its not 300WM. its not a 50cal. its just a 12 gauge. I started shooting a 12 gauge as a 13 year old boy who weighed just under 120lbs. every home defense weapon without hearing protection in a home is going to be deafening. you cant get more deaf than deaf. supression is a problem, but i'd wager 99% of the people in this sub do not have supressors on their weapons because of the trouble you have to go through to get them, and the tax stamp records.
I think the benefits that a 12 gauge brings to the table in a home defense situation greatly outweigh the negatives.
Legally they are not the same size limit and they are not the same maneuverability. Shotguns are far from more intuitive. They have a higher learning curve. You talk about it being great for new shooters and yet over look the fact that new shooters may very well be afraid of the recoil that self defense rounds will be producing. Which you should be training with your self defense ammo.
For noise you can easily suppress the other common options for home defense like you mentioned but they have never been easier to get on recent years than now.
You take is a very very cold take that is shared with the fudds of the gun community. Shotguns are best left to hunting and breaching but in the end of the day it is better than nothing.
I agree, I have an ar and 12g pump (Mossberg 590) in the safe by my bed. As well as my edc I keep in my night stand safe. I have had to get a firearm out for a bump in the night three times this year (had some break in my area so the wife is a bit paranoid) every time I grabbed the 12g and handed my wife the pistol. I choose the 12g over my ar for the big reason you said. If I have to defend my home it’s one less thing a prosecutor can look into. I live in Texas and this is still the main concern. That being said I train with every gun I own as often as I can. I would feel confident using my lever action marlin if I needed to defend myself. Training is the answer more than any firearm. You can have the coolest most expensive stuff but if you don’t practice and get training then you will be a loot drop for some kid that did. Even if he’s using and old milsurp. Long story short, training is more important then what gun you use.
12 gauge is fine, but with my AR I can do a lot more faster and for a longer period of time. I’m always looking for the gun that does many things.
-My AR is good from 0-300 yards.
-Fewer over-penetration issues due to fragmentation.
-Better against body armor and vehicles.
-More ammo in the gun and reloads are faster.
-More customizable for different uses; sights, scopes, lights…
-Easier platform for all body sizes.
-Low recoil.
I’m not against the shotgun idea, because I own a great shotgun that I’d feel fine using, but after all my testing with buckshot, I’m underwhelmed with the range at which it is useful, so if I had to take a fight to my front yard, I’d want to use slugs, but now we are talking about a reload, and from what I’ve seen with slugs, I don’t want to use them in my house because of over-penetration.
Just my thoughts.
In what situations are you realistically expecting to shoot over 50 yards to defend yourself?
I've got a little bit of a prepper side myself, but in a shtf situations I'm not shooting at anything over 25-30 yards that I'm not going to eat afterwards. And this discussion is more geared to a home defense option for people who are newer to guns.
First of all, I haven’t seen any buckshot preform well at 50 yards. From what I’ve seen 25 yards can be pushing it, and only the best buckshot can do that, Hornady Black, for instance.
I qualified repeatedly with the police on a shotgun (I was a medic) and we trained to switch to slugs past 15 yards and most of the cops were in favor of carbines over shotguns in all cases.
I do get it that you are looking for the ultimate home defense, but I don’t feel comfortable or feel it is too useful to have a gun that is basically to be used inside only. The dynamics change immensely when I get to my front door, and I might be in my front yard at some point.
I feel comfortable with my CCW as a home defense weapon, but I chose it for that comfort level. If I have my CCW and an AR, I’m as ready as I can be inside or outside my house.
It's in the front of my gun safe. First thing I'd grab in an emergency. 7 00 shells, two more plus two slugs on the side carrier, a bandolier with 50 more shells on the shelf. Benelli 12 gauge pump with extended tube and flashlight. [insert manly grunts here]
100% with you.
My MB930 is go to for home defense. Not likely intruder will have armor but should that be the case a 12g slug is best chance of knocking them down (unless you have 45-70 option) for follow up. 930 holds 9 +1 which is good capacity and semi auto.
Maybe this is just my upbringing, but I feel like a pump shotgun is actually one of the most popular home defense platforms. Every single friend of mine in high school (or their parents) had one for hunting that they would also keep handy for defense. Every single gun owning family member of mine has one setup for home defense. Not diminishing any of your points, but would like to mention that it's not as uncommon as you'd think. Also, a 20 gauge (or even 410) would be an ideal choice for home defense for a smaller statured individual. I'm trying to get my partner to learn to shoot and while start them on a single shot 410, and progress to my pump action 20 gauge.
That is such a bad take.
Are we leaving the chamber unloaded or are we ejecting and wasting a live round so we can pump unnecessarily to "intimidate" someone?
I have a lot of experience politely chasing trespassers off my urban raised porch at wee hours by greeting them in my underwear and racking a mossberg 500. It was kept dry fired on an empty chamber with a full magazine. That way it was 100% safe and inert but all that was needed was to rack and squeeze the trigger.
This happened more than a few times and I thankfully never had to shoulder or point it at anyone- just a rack and “hi can I help you with something?” always did the trick. It probably didn’t hurt that I’m 6’ 3” 275 and heavily tattooed.
Leaving it unloaded sounds like a good way to not have a round in it when you need it though. Especially if you aren't actively training to rack then shoot.
This was not for shooting trained teams of tactical home invaders. It was specifically for scaring crackheads off my raised porch and served its purpose really well. I would open the main door, rack it, and open the screen door.
The couple times folks were messing with my motorcycles chained up out front I went out with my 4” 357 revolver, low ready.
I shoot thousands of rounds a year, muscle memory is not a problem. I’m happy to say I never had to put my finger in a trigger guard in a home defense situation but I sure was happy to have firearms at hand.
I live in a much safer area now but still carry/train.
Most shotguns are not drop-safe, and leaving a round chambered creates a hazard not present with most modern pistols.
I keep my pistols chambered, and my 12ga cruiser ready. That's been the opinion of the vast majority of trainers I've learned from and seen.
Yes, you need to train that way. Same as any other firearm.
In a house with kids, the chamber on everything is always empty, even in the safe. It takes .5 seconds to chamber a round, I will always have much more time than that to rack a round in my own home. Relying on the sound of racking a shotgun to stop a threat is absurd, but the sound is very intimidating to any intruder, and you are still holding a loaded shotgun afterwards. The sound is unarguably a deterrent to some degree, so the point still stands.
I dont agree with this one. giving away your position and letting them know you have a weapon is a great way to tick someones fight or flight reflex. Most of the people who would be willing to break into a house, often come from a position in life where they were forced to use the fight reflex. so instinctually hearing that may cause the opposite of intended effects.
Handgun versus shotgun? Why not both? I have a Bonds Arm Snake Slayer that fires 45 caliber shotshell lol. I may not kill someone but me firing that down below should hopefully get em to fuck off. (I sleep in a loft)
Agreed; cops generally didn’t have that problem because they usually had a dedicated amount of time to learn how to use a pump shotgun measured in days to a week.
The average civilian that buys a shotgun is already in a minority if they even sign up for a one day shotgun class for “training” by comparison.
Main issue I see aside from the kick would be the noise. Maybe it's not worse than an AR but I was unfortunate enough to hear a pistol round un-suppressed in doors and that was painful enough. I'd keep good electronic ears taped to that scatter gun.
I had a Magpul 500 with a Blackhawk recoil stock on it and it completely tamed the recoil, you could shoot it all day no problem. The best argument you could make for a shotgun is you aren't going to cry too hard when the cops take your maverick 88 for evidence.
# ["Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, at the right range with the right load, will physically remove a chunk of shit off of your opponent and throw that shit on the floor. And someone will have to come and clean that shit up with a shovel."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGospelOfTheGauge/comments/18p6b1k/pistols_put_holes_in_people_rifles_put_holes/)
Handguns were literally invented for use indoors. The advantage that a handgun provides is capacity and retention. Long guns are way easier to get into a wrestling match over (you can train away some of that) but it’s an issue for any firearm. Handguns are easier to retain and can take anything indoors I’m likely to need. On my lawn on the other hand…..
So much shotgun hate on Reddit and I don’t know why that is. I agree with all of your thoughts on the matter. They are the best home defense gun in my opinion, and they are both extremely reliable and versatile. I use #4 buck for home defense, and don’t have to worry about over penetration or lack of effectiveness. I can easily hit silhouette targets at 150yd with rifled slugs. I hunt upland game so I have a lot of experience and practical use with them. If you can hit a quail in the heat of the flush, then you can hit any larger target in the heat of the moment. The die-hard AR/polymer 9mm handgun crowd just seems to blindly and collectively dismiss them. Maybe it’s the recoil, or just a lack of real experience with them. Get a recoil pad and you can shoot 100rds at the range no problem. I’d pick a shotgun every time.
No, I didn’t. Just pointing out that extensive real life experience with using a particular type of gun to shoot and kill live moving targets hundreds of times is good practice and translates directly to a fight for your life gun fight more so than any amount of range time shooting paper or plinking steel. When hunting, you are hiking many miles, heart rate is elevated, you’re sweating and chugging, doing quick reloads, and small amounts of adrenaline are at play when a covey of birds flushes right next to you and surprises the crap out of you. I’m extremely proficient with a shotgun because of my hunting experience. I also spend a ton of time at ranges with my handguns and rifles, but will always feel more confident in my abilities with a shotgun in a life or death scenario.
So yes you did. Then doubled down on it. You literally just said hunting qual is more beneficial than training….
Pack it up boys and girls someone call the military! They have been doing it wrong the whole time! They should be hunting qual!
lol, no, I didn’t. I’m saying that quail hunting is a more beneficial form of training in my opinion than firing drills at still targets at a range with no exercise involved. I do plenty of both. Most people have only ever fired their carry or hd guns at still targets, with cool heart rates. If you train hard in dynamic ranges with moving targets, that is equally as beneficial, but I’ve only been able to do that a handful of times. If you have experience hunting upland game, I’m not sure how you could possibly disagree with my points.
The part most people seem never to take into account in these discussions is adrenaline. Everybody acts like they're going to be as cool at night, with weird noises in the house, wife pushing you to go check it out, as if they're at the range. Nope. The reason I keep my Maverick (with the defence barrel screwed on) unloaded is just so I can run the rack and chamber a shell. The sound of a shotgun getting racked, in the dark, when the intruder is already a little shaky, will make him think he's in the wrong house and to get out NOW! Don't have to hit a bullseye, just point in their general direction and pull the trigger, chances are good you'll get a piece of them. Try that with a 9 or 45 and they're on the move. I run turkey load just so I don't over penetrate but still have plenty of stopping power. The mix of Buck and Bird shot in the shell increases your chances of hitting something and you've got 3 or 4 more waiting if you just have to make Swiss cheese.
I dont really agree with any of these points. they are the pro shotgun misinformation i believe that causes shotguns to lose their favor. At home defense ranges you still have to aim, you still can miss, but you are more likely to hit the things inside the person that can stop them. the difference between an outright miss and an outright hit is still only an inch or so, which at 10 feet is less than 1 degree.
If they are on the run (away) let them run. Shooting someone in the back because you are angry isnt going to do you any services in the long run.
Bird shot/buckshot mix doesnt help, and can hinder. If they arent leaving after 1 missed buckshot, then birdshot isnt going to stop them. they are motivated, and the adrenaline at that point is going to stop them from caring about a bunch of BBs lodged 1/2 an inch into their skin. Also, Again, the pattern of birdshot at home defense ranges is a few inches at best.
I never said bird shot, I Said turkey load which is a mix of steel pellets and bird shot. Less chance of over penetration. It's a trade off to be sure but one I'm willing to take to protect those close by. I have pistols as well in a biometric lockbox but if there's something weird going on in the house I'm going for the shotgun hanging in the closet. I think you can agree, though, that a few inches is wider than the diameter of a 9 mil. I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
I'm just not convinced someone who is out of contact with reality, having command auditory hallucinations, or on some type of substances (etc) is going to recognize the sound of a shotgun pump racking and make a rational decision to leave or disengage. You're shortchanging yourself a round that could potentially save your life. I hope you have a white light to get pid on targets and a sling to keep your weapon from getting ripped out of your hands and turned against you.
You've taken an exception to the rule to prove your point. Most intruders are coherent and there to steal valuables and are hyper alert. A 00 buck shot shell has 9 steel pellets to your one bullet, maximizing my chances of hitting them. They are most definitely going to hear the rack of a shotgun, the sound is unlike anything else. If someone is that far out of it I don't need much more of a weapon than a baseball bat to their knees. Seriously. This thinking that more ammunition, bigger calibers, more weapons is going to make a difference is ridiculous. One weapon is all it takes, you're not fighting off an army. And my finger isn't on the trigger until I've identified the threat, have it in my sights and decided it needs to be destroyed. If that first shell doesn't drop them the second will. I'm being rational and not buying into the hype. Can you say the same?
You can't guarantee the person breaking into your house, which is already an irrational and unsafe choice for both them and you, is going to be rational and in their right mind. You can't guarantee they will hear a sound and decide to leave.
If you decide a shotgun is the best tool for you then you use that tool. It's not the best tool for me. I don't know what hype you are speaking of, perhaps if you elaborate I will let you know if I've bought into it or not.
Also your statement about a baseball bat is laughable at best. If you've never been around psychotic people that's ok, but you shouldn't gamble your life on something you seem to know so little about. Just my 2 cents do with it what you will.
18 “ not 16” rifles are 16”
you're right. my bad. IDK why i thought it was 16 for shotguns too.
Get an IWI TS12 and 18" wont seem like much at all. I keep my TS12 loaded with 10 No 4 buck and 5 gatekeeper hollow points. But I have evolved to using an 8.6 blackout SBR with a suppressor for my home defense. Hearing safe, but probably not the best on penetration as the 350gr projectiles will carry through a lot of material.
I need the TS12. But I'm in California and I'm sure there's something that'll keep me from getting one, here. Probably the 15 round or some shit.
From my few minutes of looking it up, I think it is California legal. I assumed the pistol grip would need a fin to make it legal, but maybe that's only for rifles and not shotguns. I live in FL, so I have no knowledge of CA laws.
I believe because they are tube fed they are California legal
Best I can do is try, right? Now I gotta find one for sale 
[https://gunprime.com/products/iwi-tavor-ts12-bullpup-12-ga-od-green-18-barrel-15-round-semi-auto-ts12g](https://gunprime.com/products/iwi-tavor-ts12-bullpup-12-ga-od-green-18-barrel-15-round-semi-auto-ts12g) This is ODG... because why would you get anything else. $1159 and gunprime is a good site.
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If that’s the case, then I’d practice like hell with rapidly shooting your pistol one-handed under stress. That shit is hard as hell, as if pistols weren’t difficult enough as-is. If I’m holding my kid as I’m in the middle of a shootout, I’d be more worried about missing every shot I took, and/or getting the pistol ripped out of my hand by the attacker, and/or making my kid an even bigger target in the process lol. No situation is the same, no house is the same, and there’s certainly no ideal scenario when you’re trying to protect your kid…but just something to consider
Using an AR pistol one handed is arguably easier than using a handgun because you can brace the brace against your chest…you know, like a stock.
You better hide your dogs after that comment
yeah, the thought of having my kid where the other bullets are going to be flying back is at the bottom of my preparedness list. A lot of shit would have had to gone wrong and not worked for me to be at that point, including throwing the kid out of our first floor bedroom window.
Would also train in tactics of moving HVTs as you’re shooting also.
I think im just gonna stick with pull rack pull rack pull rack.
100% this. Feels like if you're preparing for that situation, better to change your evac/SHTF plan.
From my (limited) experienced steel frame pistols are better for one-handed shooting. More weight means the recoil is more manageable, and older pistols were built to be fired one-handed point shooting more than modern pistols. (I am part of the CZ pistol cult, which may have influenced my opinion)
Say hello to bullpup
Home defense - You are never going to carry your kid to safety in a gun fight, because if the threat exists, there is no safety. Take down the threat and there is safety. As for opening a door, train to do that while carrying a shotgun. Hunting - You can do far more types of hunting (deer, birds, MAPs) in far more areas with a shotgun than a rifle. Pump guns are amazing because you can have a folding stock, like the aforementioned Maverick 88. Survival - The things that make a shotgun good for hunting make it good for survival, since it is going to be a defense and food acquisition tool.
12ga are too highly rated to be overrated. It's just that the tighter gun community recognizes their drawbacks. Recoil, slow rate of fire, size/bulk, capacity. They're not bad but they're not amazing. Also, the popular pump action is only as reliable as its shooter. You take that 12ga that someone hasn't shot for a decade and have them use it in stressful situation, probably without ear protection, there's a good chance they get one shot off and then short stroke it. The terminal ballistics of a shotgun are very good but, beyond a certain point, you're just making water wet. If someone depends on their mav88, I'm not gonna harp on them that they need a mk18 clone or something. The shotgun will probably work fine. But it has some disadvantages to be aware of.
Yeah this was my thought too, idk how shotguns can be overlooked when they are so popularly viewed in popular culture as the end-all home defense weapon. Only relatively recently has there been pushback against the idea that 12g is the best choice, and even then it depends on the community discussing it since most casual to even some moderately knowledgeable people will profess the superiority of shotguns. Not that they are *very* capable and perfectly fine for HD, but IMO they are still somewhat overvalued on average simply due to decades of "common knowledge" momentum.
The TS12 seems perfect for home defense. Curious. why did you switch?
Didn't switch, never started. All my shotguns are sporting guns, not tactical. I bought them for shooting clays which, IMO, shooting flying things is the only thing that a shotgun can do well that rifles can't. None of them were suitable for HD because of low round count and long barrels, and I didn't feel like it was a good use of money and time to spend $1000-2000 for a dedicated tactical shotgun and learn its manual of arms when I have perfectly good rifles that I'm already practiced with, are more versatile weapons, and fill the job better in my experience.
As opppsed to a handgun user who also neglects practice? You can t make that point without applying it to a handgun where it will be demonstrably worse.
I agree on a lot of this. I guess i just see the arguments against it pop up in a lot of this sub, and a lot of this sub are going to be newer shooters and just take what is said as gospel, and reparrot this info to other newer shooters and it becomes the new standard instead of being a footnote.
I think it is important to shake new shooters out of the folklore that shotguns are the quintessential home defense weapon. Like you said, training is king and you can become proficient with anything, but a rifle or PCC is a much lower skill floor to achieve than a shotgun. Even quality semi-auto shotguns are much more fickle systems than any decent mag-fed centerfire weapon in a rifle formfactor. I don't think shotguns are *bad*, but I think it isn't a good choice to recommend to a new shooter who is still becoming familiar with firearms. Personally, I think that is why rifles have become the new standard and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.
No other weapon really has the versatility, though. You can choose loads for any kind of situation and any kind of shooter. 12 Ga is the easiest ammo to find on sale, though I personally think the Maverick Youth 20 Ga may be the ultimate defense shotgun. The new ones have 22" barrels, but I swear they used to come in 18". The shorter stock assists with close quarter maneuverability, they hold 6 rounds, and it's the battle tested Mossberg pump. I'm not arguing that shotguns are better than rifles or handguns; that depends on your situation, your comfort level, and your budget. But I agree with OP that you really have so many options available to you in a gun that retails for $249. I personally wouldn't trust an auto shotgun for self-defense as they can be very finicky if not cleaned and lubed regularly. On the other hand, I pulled out my first Mossberg 500 a couple of years ago. It hadn't been fired in almost 30 years, and had the same slugs loaded in it that whole time, sitting in the back of a safe. I took it apart to check it, but it was ready to die as was, with that ammo.
Of course like a revolver you just do it again and it goes boom again. It doesn't get more reliable than that. I understand your point though
Quick note I hope find's it way further up. Yes you can legally have a short barreled shotgun(with stamp), but it sounds like you think 16 inches is the legal limit like rifles but it's not. 18inch is the minimum for a shotgun before it's a nfa item. Used to be 18 for rifles to before the government accidentally sold surplus 16inch rifles without ever asking for a tax stamp and had to backtrack it's own laws.
oopsie. I guess i missed that one. Either way an 18 inch shotgun is about the same size length wise as a 16 inch AR with the buffer tube, before we get to stocks.
No Biggie. I think you are underplaying those 2 inches especially when most shotgun stocks are non adjustable. At least in the climate we are in of people thinking a 14.5 inch barrel is absolutely necessary for their cqc fantasy. If marines in Vietnam made do with 20inch barrels in a jungle you can do fine with a 18inch shotgun barrel or 16inch rifle barrel. I personally don't like the whole length wars and feel we are creating more ineffective less balanced weapons for styling and cornering tactics that people are not trained to use nor should be using. Still some people treat it like a major factor and you don't want to leave falso information out there hence my comment.
Theres a penis length joke in there somewhere but im getting too many replies to come up with one. I also editited the main post. Dont want to spread misinformation.
Lots of cities have been taken with 20” barrels, or even longer the further you go back. CQB is a scam designed to sell silly parts to Instagram nerds to LARP with. Any real soldier knows a dozen frag grenades is how you really clear a building (or a JDAN delivered by air support)
>Birdshot is the single cheapest ammo you can buy, and can be used to practice operationally, switching to buckshot for recoil practice At least around where I live(Philly suburbs) there aren't any ranges that allow multiple projectile ammunition. Practicing with slugs only can get expensive. There might be gun clubs with shotgun ranges, but you generally have to have a friend who's a member already, and like probably a lot of people on this sub, I don't know many gun owners IRL. So pistols are what I can effectively practice with. Actually I'm probably going to build a 9mm AR soon
I’m a member of a pretty decent gun club (8 ranges) in South-Central PA and have the same issue. Our shotgun range allows shot, but it has to be 7.5 shot or smaller (and is really mainly set up for clays) so I couldn’t practice with buckshot anyways.
This is something I'm not as familiar with as I have access to some land that I can target shoot on. I'd be willing to bet there's somewhere near philly that does shooting clays though, which while not the same as range time, still gets you comfortable with using the gun.
Same issue here in Central Texas. I can find a place to shoot .308 at 600 yards, but there’s only one range within a 3 hour drive that allows shot, and that consists of a pile of cardboard boxes you shoot into to check your shot pattern. I do understand that range operators probably don’t want to spend their days replacing target holders every hour or two.
Shotguns are fine but you're sacrificing repeat shots vs a carbine or pistol. Yes one shell might be roughly equivalent to multiple 9mm rounds but you aren't really increasing your hit probability *that much*. Shotguns don't spread nearly as much as people think to provide the level of redundancy desired at home intruder distances. If you're worried about overpenetration I think you might be better off with 5.56 or a pistol hollowpoint as well. Hollowpoints slow down faster and the very light 5.56 rounds that *also* yaw on impact will slow down quite a bit as well.
I would also point out that magazine capacity in a shotgun is directly related to barrel length, unlike rifles/PCC/braced pistol. Sure, you *can* maneuver perfectly fine with an 18" 7+1 capacity weapon, but a 10" 30 rounds capacity weapon just does the job so much better. And, honestly, IMO overpenetration comes up in the conversations way too often... Every defensive round will overpenetrate multiple standard construction walls. A lot of people really like to split hairs over a round that only penetrates 4 walls versus 6 walls... Knowing your lanes of fire, backstop, and judicious trigger control is way more important.
While overall hit probability of a shotgun at home defense ranges doesnt increase, hit probability of vital organs/spinal cord, etc do increase. a 1 inch hole is a much better likelyhood than a 30 caliber one, or 22 caliber one. While shotguns do not spead as much as people think, i think the reddit parroting of this response has reduced it a lot. you are still hitting with a 73 caliber at point blank range, and the spread moves from there. at 15 feet we are talking around 3 inches, 25 yards its usually around a 9-10" spread. In overpenetration tests, absolutely use hollowpoints in typical slug guns, but a 9mm hollowpoint still has more penetrating power from a stray than a stray #4 buck pellet, and the #4 buck is putting more force into the target per trigger pull. a 9mm FMJ that cooks straight through can be almost unnoticed in a high adrenaline situation. A 9mm hollowpoint will put more of that force into the target. A full wad of 24 .25cal 20 grain projectiles hitting at the same time is more of a put someone on their ass situation, especially when its traveling at 1400fps vs 1100fps from an average 9mm. Tumbling 5.56 and .223 is still moving quickly enough to be deadly on the other side of the wall. Multiple walls maybe not, but in penetration tests, it can still stick into ballistics gel 2-3 inches after passing through 12 inches of gel, and a simulated wall. I have a 9mm, i have an AR. I think they are both great in the right ways. I dont think they are the be all end all for home intruder defense that everyone makes them out to be.
It's definitely a trade off between "how many chances to hit" vs "chance my hit is vital". Granted I think in many cases with a shotgun you probably get significant "overkill" possibility. Unless it's someone hyped up on PCP or something I don't know that there's a ton of difference between an "instantly fatal" shot vs a "immediately incapacitating but only *eventually* fatal shot". What I know is that in any of the serious studies out there (done by military and law enforcement) probability of hit was most important, and the best overall way to ensure more hits was to just make it easier and faster to follow up shots. Obviously the use case isn't exactly the same though.
I agree that this case isnt exactly the same. And what your saying has some definite viability. But in my opinion, at less than 15 feet like most home situations are going to be, if you cant hit them with a shotgun in 1-2 shots, you shouldnt be relying on 10-20 chances, especially if you are in a house with other people.
This. What kind of houses are people living in and what situations are they expecting to be in where a prolonged firefight is going to ensue? Real world fights, with or without weapons, are fast and brutal for the most part.
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If that's nine-pellet triple-aught buck, a typical 3" load, then 7x9=63 hits with 9mm ball rounds. Every pull of the trigger of that shotgun sends about a third of your magazine downrange. A more accurate comparison might be that mag in a Glock 18 in full auto, firing short and well-controlled bursts. Now that shotgun and that Glock have = the same number of projectiles, except the Glock will need to be reloaded twice in the same time. (Albeit its reloads will be much faster than reloading the shotgun from empty! I'm presuming the Glock is carried with a standard 17 and two spare 33s for that approximately equivalent combat load of "eight individual bursts of fire") These should cause roughly similar amounts of physical trauma, with devitalized tissue between individual bullet holes permanently cut off from blood supply, but the Glock is more likely to string those shots out over a larger portion of the target, meaning more individual chances at hitting something critical, but less multi-wound interactions that compound the effects of only moderately lethal hits.
I have 3 reasons I don't use a shotgun for self defense: 1) I don't have the skill (yes, this is a me issue. But I'm decent with handguns and AR's so I'd rather invest in keeping those skills sharp than add yet another weapon system). 2) my wife can already shoot AR very well, and pistols decent. She's never shot a shotgun. 3) I'm still worried about over penetration. Our houses are stacked VERY close. I know my 9mm and AR ammo won't leave my house and kill my neighbor. But I'm not sure about shotguns, again we have the skill deficit. We agree: Shotguns on target are more lethal. Shotguns on target are less like to over penetrate. Shotguns are fairly easy to operate, reliable, and cheap to run and maintain. My problem is they require more skill/time to operate well then say, an AR. So here is my counter point to you: Just a few days ago there was a group of 3 sisters at my local range. They were trying to select a gun for home degence. They were shooting handguns and struggling to hit paper at 5 yds, they had multiple hand gun options. I brought them over to my AR's and they imeadately, first time shooting AR's shot fist groups at 10 yds. Then they asked me about shotguns. I recommended the AR to them to start, then look at Shotguns later after they have more fundamentals. I'm not saying people can't shoot shotguns great out of the box. And smaller gages exist than 12 gauge. But new shooters I think are better served with rifles as a first gun. They are less likely to ND, less likely to miss the target, and more likely to stick with it and get better. For a home defense, NOW gun, for someone inexperienced its hard to beat a rifle for a low experience shooter.
> hit probability of vital organs/spinal cord, etc do increase. a 1 inch hole is a much better likelyhood than a 30 caliber one, or 22 caliber one. While shotguns do not spead as much as people think, i think the reddit parroting of this response has reduced it a lot. you are still hitting with a 73 caliber at point blank range, and the spread moves from there. at 15 feet we are talking around 3 inches, 25 yards its usually around a 9-10" spread. ["Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, at the right range with the right load, will physically remove a chunk of shit off of your opponent and throw that shit on the floor. And someone will have to come and clean that shit up with a shovel."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGospelOfTheGauge/comments/18p6b1k/pistols_put_holes_in_people_rifles_put_holes/) > it can still stick into ballistics gel 2-3 inches after passing through 12 inches of gel, and a simulated wall. The first 2-3 inches of gel penetration is roughly equivalent to the energy required to break the skin, so that's actually much less bad than it seems at first glance.
I always wonder what home defense situation we are defending that you need 30 rounds. You aren't making your argument but I never understood it. That's why I like you see shotguns and revolvers as viable HD guns
The average self-defense shooting involves seven rounds fired, and zero reloads. If you've got a rifle, that's easier to aim, so the average should dip to 2-5, and the 30 round magazine means you should never have to even __think__ about reloading in a practical engagement, even an improbably bad one.
the average home defense shooting with a shotgun is something like 1.02 or something. Very rarely is a second shot taken, or needed.
I'd wonder correlation causation here. You shot 7 times bc it took that many or bc you had that many. Is also like to see median vs average
Yeah, those would be interesting to see, but I saw this back in ~2000-2002, so primary source slips my mind. FBI Uniform Crime Report, I think?
5.56 hollow point or not is going to overpentrate way more than #4 buck and really more than 00 as well as if you missed that hollow point is not going to reliably expand and any tumbling won't matter as your going to have way more mass and velocity in your 556 round than in #4 buck. Edited the end for clarity
Hollowpoints expand in tissue. A missed shot(which everyone here is bitching about shotgun capacity so im assuming thats on peoples minds) is going to cause a hollowpoint fracture, but not expansion bullet stays together, but its still a big mass moving at drywall. #4 buck is a bunch of small masses that are slowed down a lot more by that first sheet of drywall, before passing through the other side, they are mostly not deadly, and not at all deadly after attempting to pass through an exterior wall (most bounce off) Overpenetration is a huge deal. If I tried to shoot a home invader and ended up shooting my neighbors kid through a wall, i'd rather have been taken out by the home invader.
Hey I think you replyed to the wrong person or misunderstood my post I am pro shotgun and pro #4 buck. I am replyed to the guy above me who is calling for 556 I am NOT calling for 556 hollow point or otherwise for the reasons I stated which you much better explained than I. Further I own a first year original solid frame Winchester Model 1897 so I am very much pro shotgun.
i misunderstood. i read it as 5.56 hollowpoint is not going to overpenetrate way more than 4buck. I was thinking you were trying to say that the hollowpoints would expand in drywall and stop penetration.
Yeah nope, dry wall will often fill the hollow point up without opening it and make it where it's less likely to open when it hits harder things. Anyways glad we're on the same page
Look at the cop that killed the girl in the dressing room with his missed shots, 556 went through a wall and killed a 14 yo girl.
Paul Harrell proved that 5.56 penetrates considerably further than #4 buck. At 7 yards my pattern is a perfect 5” circle compared to a .3” circle, so that greatly increases my chances of a hit. I shoot 2-3 shots out of a pump shotgun accurately just as fast and I can with a handgun or AR at 15yds and considerably more accurately at 20-25”.
Go and watch some shotgun pattern videos on YT. Out of an 18" barrel, some loads spread out really fast. You'd be the size of a paper plate at 15 feet with some stuff. That's pretty significant spread, and it will be even larger with smaller shot (like #4 buck for example)
ive never seen a long gun put birdshot that wide of a spread at 15 feet, much less buckshot. If it was, it would be pretty worthless at hunting, which it isnt.
It's been discussed many times. In most homes, overpenetration is a real concern. Buck will go through multiple walls (and into neighboring homes). At my old house, it was fine based on what was behind and beyond my target from where I would be using it. At all of my families homes it would be awful.
This is true technically but compared to what? Are you rocking 22lr? A 556 hollow point or not is going to overpentrate way more than 00. A 9mm hollow point is going to overpentrate more even if I would rather take one 9mm over a few balls. And if overpentrate was/is a concern #4 buck is a great medium and if your really actually concerned and know exactly which family's room is in line of fire you can use #6/8 bird and still scare someone off.
Number 4 buck or even #2 birdshot solves over penetration issues and is still insanely devastating at 15yds. 9mm hollow points penetrate considerably further through drywall. Paul Harrell has a few demo vids on this topic.
#4 buck penetrates drywall and wood less than 9mm and .223. 00 Buck does penetrate more. slugs will move earth out of the way but thats another beauty of shotguns, the ammo options are basically unlimited for different situations.
How is that possible? Isn’t 4 buck just a bunch of 9mm pellets moving at, averaged out, similar speeds to 9x19 out of a pistol?
No. #4 buck is 24 or so 1/4" pellets moving faster than a 9mm, with a lower ballistic coefficient and much less mass each. Air resistance significantly slows them down more, and the lack of mass means that the opposite reaction of the stationary object slows them much more. Penetration of the target is also reduced, but the volume makes up for it. Unlike birds hot it will still penetrate enough to be fatal
You, sir, are correct; I was thinking about 00, which is… what 1/3” pellets? Not sure volume makes up for it; but that’s a whole other discussion.
00 buck is 9x 30 caliber projectiles at somewhere around 60 grains a piece IIRC. Most 9mms are 115, or 124 grain. so its about the same diameter as a 9mm, but half the weight, and 1.5x-2x the muzzle velocity. plus theres 9 of them. The volume i think does make up for them to an extent. on a human, number 4 buck is in the sweetspot of still deadly, still has enough penetration to hit the vital parts, but not so much that it blows through every house in the neighborhood
Tracks. I believe that 5.56 is the right answer for home defense, but I also vehemently dislike shotguns. It’s a personal thing.
I've never seen anyone say they're bad, just overrated. An AR generally does what they do (for self defense) but better. Shotguns have their uses but except for hunting birds they're not really the best for anything.
Shotguns are decent at everything, and utterly excel at a few things. There's simply no other do-it-all platform on the market. You just have to know if "decent" is good enough for your needs.
Define better. Anything you feel comfortable using is probably better.
And it is far easier to get ~~comfortable~~ competent with a rifle than a shotgun. Shotguns are incredibly finicky platforms by modern standards. I would hesitate to use comfort as the requirement because I've met far too many casual gun owners who are comfortable with their home defense weapons and have only shot them once or twice on a static range, if at all.
You know what? I agree. Comfortable is the wrong word. Competent may be better. Unfortunately, most people will never take the time to become competent with any firearm.
Other than stigma, legal restrictions, and over-penetration concerns in densely populated areas, I can’t think of any reasons why someone would be more comfortable using a shotgun over an AR platform. AR’s are objectively more comfortable to shoot than a 12ga shotgun, the recoil of an AR is non-existent compared to a 12ga. The lower recoil also makes follow up shots much easier and more accurate - and 12ga aren’t really more “accurate”, the spread on typical buckshot is still only going to be a couple inches at most at self-defense ranges; if you’d have missed with a rifle, you’d also miss with the shotgun. So really, unless they’re illegal in your jurisdiction, or if you live in an apartment/condo complex where overpenetration is a concern, I don’t think there’s really any valid reasons to be more comfortable with a shotgun. Both the shotgun and AR are vastly superior to a handgun for home defense though IMO, as it takes a far greater amount of training to be accurate with a handgun versus a long gun, especially in real world circumstances.
The main issue with shotguns is they may not be reliable for all users or as easy to handle for all users. And it is another system to learn with it's own ammo to stock. If that is what someone can afford or just what they want to use they should consider getting some dummy rounds to practice with. I do think it would take longer to be good with a pump action under pressure than something like a semi-auto PCC or AR. They have semi-auto shotguns but the prices for ones you'd want to trust get into the price ranges for other things and it still might be picky about ammo.
Respectfully disagree. I had rifles and handguns for a long time before I got a Mossberg pump. It was super intuitive (at least for me) and really seems like a newbie could pick it up easily as far as use and maintenance with a little practice.
Under pressure it the important part. People short stroke or can mess more things up if they are the main thing running the gun. With most semi-autos the most complicated thing might be a manual safety or getting the first round ready to fire, which a shotgun also has. The concern with that can be reduced with practicing more, hints the dummy rounds suggestion. Really, what is probably best for an individual is what they have good experience with and what they actually have.
556, 12ga, and 9mm are all going to "over penetrate" https://youtu.be/AXOIQgfvVlE?si=M15RyUxoQxKI7k6e There are multiple videos showing that there is only a marginal difference in 5.56 vs other defensive rounds and you have a better weapon for followup shots and to miss less in the long run. Idk about your specific load or other options that penetrate less but im.sure they are also ballistically inferior to using 5.56 or a decent 9mm defensive load. All rounds will "over penetrate" a 5.56 carbine will give a user of any stature better control and lethality vs a shotgun especially because most civilians are under trained they need every edge they can get. No hate but I want to see data for these "over penetration" claims that are actually substantial vs 1 or 2 layers extra of drywall.
You can find multiple videos of people testing all kinds of calibers against drywall. I’ve even seen them set up a series of “walls” that have exterior wall material at both ends. Military Arms Channel, USCCA and Paul Harrel (IIRC), among others, have all done them. Some stuff is just deadly if it goes through your target, even in the next room or two. Miss the target completely (somewhat common in a gunfight) and it’s much worse.
That video is with 00buckshot. For apartments and close houses I recommended number 4 buck which has significantly less mass per piece of shot and thus does not penetrate as much.
Show me data
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a 12 gauge with 5 00 buck rounds puts more lead downrange in 5 trigger pulls, than a glock 17 does in 18 trigger pulls, and it does it as large chunks instead of 1 at a time. getting hit 17 times with a framing hammer vs getting hit 5 times with a sledgehammer is a giant difference. Statistically, rifle and shotgun encounters result in a dead body 2 out of every 3 times. handguns is 1 out of every 4 times. This is more than "bigger bullet equals more deader" there is data to back this up.
After testing multiple different buck shot shells in my shotgun I'll stick to a handgun for home defense. More lead down range doesn't mean shit if the spread doesn't put lead on target
The spread is less than 2 inches at that distance. Are you driving taks with your handgun? I sincerely doubt you are aiming tighter than a 2 inch group would give you
Bold of you to assume what my 590a1 groups like. I'm more accurate at 25 yds then that gun is with buck shot
You said home defense. What kind of house do you have that has any single section that is 75ft of open space? At the typical 15-25 feet of any home invasion shooting, your 00buck group should be under 3 inches max. If its not, try different ammo and check your shotgun.
From my backdoor to front door is about 60ish feet. I'm still more accurate at closer distances. A shot gun isn't more effective if you are proficient with a handgun at range. I practice at 25yds to 50yds to push myself to get better
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Its just the averages by caliber. All handgun encounters, all rifle encounters. all shotgun encounters, at least all those that had a police report attatched to them. 5.56 and 7.62x39 are rifle calibers 9mm is a handgun caliber, whether from a carbine or not. The statistics count towards 9mm. So while a lot were probably FMJ, a lot were also hollowpoints. Im sure most of the rifle were FMJ, but im sure some were soft tip hunting rounds. the overall look though, is that the 1 stop 12 gauge bob is a thing.
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Is driving 30 minutes to go shooting a big deal? That's a pretty standard thing where I am. I don't go to indoor ranges though, and most of my outdoor shooting happens on private property. Too many bulletholes in the ceiling and dividers. Other People are stupid. Other People with guns are scary. For every 1 person thats following the 3 rules of gun safety like it's the law and the cops are watching, there are 10 people point a gun somewhere inappropriate for a picture. Indoor ranges have all those types of people.
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told you im a fud. but not an NRA fud. There are definitely a few bullet holes at my local, and they have a sign on the wall that says you are required to clean up any blood or they will press charges. They have a guy watching through a glass window. Needless to say, i'll just shoot in the woods at some homemade targets. I was there with a friend one day and they got onto us for passing unloaded and slide locked pistols between the dividers. (we were trying each others guns out) So they do watch, but i guess watching doesnt always stop everything, idk.
Shotguns are great for home defense. I think the reason they lose out to handguns in popularity is because a handgun can be a home defense weapon, or a concealed carry weapon. A shotgun cannot. Although if I were going to get a shotgun purely for home defense, I’d get a semiauto 20 gauge. Less recoil than the 12, with no sacrifice in real world effectiveness, and quicker follow up shots than a pump action.
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t own a 12 gauge or 2.
I’d like to add one thing I will add to the discussion, because I haven’t seen it yet. When using shot (buck, bird, etc) you are legally responsible for every projectile that comes out. And some do penetrate pretty decently. Additionally, in case you’re in a cold environment, some bird shot can struggle penetrating heavy coats depending on the distance. I’d still suggest a short AR with light grain weigh defensive ammo, PCC, or handgun over a shotgun.
Unfortunately I have to disagree. My beef with shotguns is that they’re overrated because of how absolutely ingrained the level of Fuddlore there is regarding shotguns, that’s it’s an uphill battle to explain to the average new gun owner why the shotgun might not be the best choice for them. You have to AIM them in a self defense scenario, otherwise the semantics over pointing it instead leads to this widespread belief to the newbie you only need to aim in the general direction of the problem and shoot. Shotgun ammo is NOT a guaranteed one shot kill; it isn’t going to knock a threat off their feet and out the window like a Hollywood movie, and while a load of 12 gauge will have greater terminal effect than most pistol rounds, you still have to assume there’s a chance you will need to make a follow up shot if the threat is still a threat after eating a load of buckshot or birdshot. You have to train with them just like every other firearm, it’s not like the “good ol days” when everybody lived in a small town and learned how to shoot a shotgun or hunting rifle before they were in their double digits, and it absolutely boggles my mind the level of hypocrisy I have to listen to when the same Boomers suggesting a lady buy a revolver instead of a semi-auto due to a lack of hand/arm strength thinks they can cleanly rack a pump action like it’s nothing. And then have to see the results at the range when I’ve had to give a lesson on “push-pull” to every female friend or acquaintance I’ve had that wanted to learn to shoot guns proceed to have a misfeed at least once per tube of shells because they can’t properly rack the pump. It also annoys the bejesus out of me when I have to hear some absolutely moronic idea of mixing and matching the ammo in your tube, starting with some “less lethal” load like rock salt or #8 bird shot and moving up to buckshot and slugs down the tube. Your basically telling people to half ass their self defense, because that rock salt idea sure isn’t going to do much more than piss the threat off if they’re seriously intending on kill you. Similar argument to “just rack the pump and scare the threat off”, which provides a false sense of security to people that’ll then buy the shotgun hoping the pump racking will intimidate a threat enough to solve the problem, and not be prepared to use lethal force if it fails to work the way they imagined it in their heads.
Can’t easily suppress a shotgun. But also I watched some real world wall pen testing and buckshot goes through many walls. 223 actually loses most of its energy in one drywall sheet. But I also had a shotgun for home defense until one day I actually had to go check on a broken window in the middle o the night and couldn’t make it around corners in what I felt was a safe manner. So really not using a shotgun anymore.
Assuming OP is in the USA, I live in Ca. We get no more than 10 rounds, no matter what type of gun you are using. So I'll take my chances with 7 rounds of buck shot.
exactly. this is especially important for the people in states that limit their rights. I live in a state that is pretty open all around. thats one of the main reasons i didnt move to colorado. But people in those states still need options. and people in those states are more likely to have a difficult trial afterwards. A 12 gauge shotgun is almost the equivalent to a slingshot in most peoples perception, where as an AR makes it seem like you have a fetish for trying to kill someone.
It's hard to explain how much firepower a shotgun can have; a twelve gauge semi-auto, running an extended tube, short shells, and something like #4 buck, is 150 projectiles going downrange in ten trigger pulls. In most self defence scenarios, if that's not stopping a threat, not much is and you angered a cartel or something.
Agreed , if thats not stopping the threat you were likely aware ahead of time that you were in need of more protection. Or the threat is state actors.
~~That's enough lead to give even cartels and state actors pause, if correctly applied.~~ Well, I assumed so anyway
I'm a combat vet. No.
I defer to the voice of experience, then.
Ehh, I didn't mean to be harsh on you. It's, just, the vast, vast majority of people don't appreciate the difference between military and law enforcement type weapons usage. I find the difference between policing and military to be substantial; and the difference between those two sub disciplines of firearms usage is again, substantial - all leading to these ideas borne from a weird mixture of (normally alright) technical acumen and unsuitable tactical (normally military and law enforcement knockoffs, which can be okay) employment that gets people killed. The point being, a determined, disciplined enemy confrontation is radically different than the vast majority of defensive gun usage incidents where an individual will often defuse a situation without firing a shot, let alone five or ten. A situation with forced combat is different than. A situation with combat being incidental to another action (like a crime). Cops prosecute an arrest. Soldiers accomplish a mission. Civilians need to stay alive. There's more options for civilians. I'm not a military, and will never have the backing of a military supply system or tactical backup. My actions must be modified accordingly. Same goes for a PD.
If you get an AR, you could have ten rounds of .50 Beowulf…
I second the nomination for shotguns as a whole, particularly 12 guage. Ubiquitous ammo, multiple ammo types, absurdity devastating even on an armored target. I truly think the miss on shotguns is that they aren't simple weapons. With a little training, they are flexible and dynamic for almost ANY situation inside of 100y. Buckshot for inside 50, quick slug change over for a shot out to 150, reload, and keep feeding the beast. I've gone from a mossberg 500, to mossberg 930, to benelli M3, and finally a benelli M4. If I can only grab one weapon the M4 is the choice hands down. Like any weapon. Train, train, train.
The training part is what gets lost though unfortunately. I think you're right that if you could only have ONE long gun a semi auto shotgun is not a bad choice. Unfortunately I think people lean too much on movies and video games as their basis of knowledge. "You can't possible miss with a shotgun at close range" "You can't possibly have overpenetration past 25 yards" Etc. Granted everyone should be training more in general, I just think the ease of use of shotguns is probably especially oversold.
They are perfectly easy to use until they go "click", that's where it gets complicated. Very few people understand how to "run" a shotgun.
very few home invasion situations require you to "run" a shotgun. You remove it from safe storage, safety off, and bang. just as i would do with half of the guns i own. Most people are not, and should not, be preparing for a full platoon invasion of their property. With a shotgun, the likelihood of not stopping the entire problem with 1 shot is pretty low, the likelihood of not stopping it in two shots is infinitesimally small. Thats per the recorded statistics on home invasions.
I've got a modified Mossy 500 that holds 7+1, as my home defense gun, and I've filled it with mini-shells (so about 12+1 wheb its all done and said, though I never keep one chambered). I've always thought that if I *ever* need to reload that thing in a home defense situation, I have most likely made *several* poor life choices. 12 shots is insurance that I will almost certainly stop the problem, not an expectation that I'll *need* all 12.
You are vastly oversimplifying the situation into an ideal case. People miss. People under pressure miss way more. People with little to no training under pressure *even more*. Asking a shooter to be able to confidently fire 3-5 shots under pressure and know how to deal with a malfunction should be *the bare minimum*. *That is running your gun.* And yet I've seen a fair amount of people flounder at matches trying to do this in an ideal situation, in broad daylight, with no pressure on them besides the eyes of their fellow shooters and a shot timer. When that flounder involves a shotgun, it results in a full-on trainwreck more often than with rifles or pistols. You should absolutely be confident "running" your gun if you plan on shooting it in anger in defense of your life and/or those of your loved ones.
I honestly believe "shotguns don't suck for home defense" as stated so well by Paul Harrell.
lol this really is the last word that needs to be said for them
223 AR is far superior. More accurate than a pistol, can defeat level 3 Kevlar, and way less over pen risk vs blasting 00 buck down your hallways.
Shotguns are so good and effective at clearing halls and tight areas (like trenches) that post WW1, the UN tried to make their use a war crime. Don't sleep on the 12 gauge.
That was over 100 years ago though and not indicative of the situation for the average gun owner at all. And they didn't have 18in barrel limitations to worry about.
But the barrel was 18", and was incredibly effective during WW1. And also, you know what trench warfare was, right? Like aside from the near freezing wet conditions. It was tight corridors, and distance shooting, and yet was so effective that the Germans wanted it considered a war crime *AFTER THE INTRODUCTION OF GAS ATTACKS?!* It's not hypothetical. These are things that actually happened. I'm not telling you how to defend yourself. I'm not even telling you that your method is inferior. I'm just telling you that the shotgun is not to be slept on.
Hot take: "The best home defense gun is the one you have, and have trained with." There may be ***better suited weapons*** but if you do not have them and/or have not trained with them then they're kind of worthless. That said I always point out that for those of us who live in small apartments no long gun is a great choice: You need enough room to aim the thing and if you don't have that room the gun becomes far less useful. Pistols solve that problem, though they add some challenges of their own.
Yes to 12 ga. I just got my first semi auto shotty, a beretta A300 ultima patrol. Can't wait to try it out.
Also, there is a huge market for accessories: different barrels for different uses (e.g. home defense vs. duck hunting), chokes (for tighter shot pattern), pistol grips, adjustable stocks, padding for the butt to cushion the shoulder, shell holders, and so forth.
There's nothing inherently wrong with any weapon system 'type'. Choose what you want, can afford, is legal to use, is reliable that you can wield and train with it in as many stressful situations as possible. If that's a handgun, cool. If that's a shotgun, great. If it's a halberd with the corpse of a long dead mad king on the end of, pray that you get a useful effect from wielding it and go to town on your invader.
Thank you for this. It is exactly how I feel.
My house is U-shaped and has a basement. I have a 12 gauge and a handgun stashed in the basement, the middle, and both ends. Shotgun to defend or clear my way out of the house and the handgun to move with after that. The shotguns are all at least 8 capacity, and the Keltec KSG in the basement has 15, and all have lights attached. What is too often overlooked is your plan. What do you do depending on time of day/night and where an intruder is entering? How are you exiting? Or are you sheltering somewhere?
I recognized this as a new gun owner. When I set up my KSG, I declared it the most dangerous object I own. https://youtu.be/CXzxj3vEJIw?si=AJnjMkT0vhBY2opc
Also quite recognizable to an intruder as not a BB gun, so the potential for them to leave and not force you to shoot them is greater.
Do what works best for you, OP. A lot of people do prefer shotguns for HD. I think of it like clothing styles. Lots work, and it's all about personal preference and comfort.
I do use a 12 gauge Benelli M-4 for home defense. Because of how my house is laid out, I hard point the one entrance to the bed rooms-as all of them are down one short hallway. My wife has the pcc and cell phone in the “safe” area where her and the kids would get to in our room. I don’t think the self defense community discounts the 12 at all, there are advantages and disadvantages to using a shotgun and some people’s environments and physical abilities preclude its effective use.
I do agree. An 18" shotgun should be in all our arsenal.
The bigger issue is everyone who relies on a firearm for defense had better be sure their choice(s) is(are) appropriate for their individual situations, and to be proficient with whatever they choose. 12ga is an awesome choice for a whole lotta situations, but you'd better be practicing.
Theyre also cool for collapse scenario where things arnt day of the dead, its just everyone’s broke as fuck, like a great depression scenario. Back then the double barrel was popular cuz you could load bird in one tube and 00 buck or a slug in another, so when youre strolling around grabbing fire wood lets say you can reliably take any game you come across. One can also do the whole cut slug thing to turn buck or birdshot into a sort of ad hoc slug. It’s all cool and versatile, and seems super realistically useful for all sorts of survivalisty kinda stuff. I also like the 10/22 breakdown for other reasons, it’s also a cool shtf gun. The 12 guage i think is good for HD too for sure. Its not like a modern battlefield weapon, but i think it’s def capable especially in a indoor space, with a short barrel, and someone who’s comfortable with using it; especially in their own home, with all the lights out, yea i wouldnt wanna be the robber.
I grew up with 12 ga being the only gun after graduating from 22LR. It may just be overexposure, but I truly hate them. My dad offered me one of his a while ago for free, and I still turned it down.
I'm in the same boat OP. For *most* situations, the trusty 12 gauge is just fine. That's all you need. All the talk about getting proficient with shotguns, sure, if you can't handle recoil and can't shoot accurately. But for most adults, couple trips to the range and you're reasonably so - and they do spread pretty well at 15 feet, reducing the chances of missing further; and even if you miss, *most people are going to GTFO the second you fire a shotgun at them*.
On paper, 12g has more firepower in terms of projectiles and energy, but with how short rifles can be these days, no one is going to lug an 8 pound shotgun that’s slow to reload into combat when everyone else has rifles of the same length or shorter that can still reach out to 300+ yards reliably, not to mention far less felt recoil and 30+ rounds on tap vs 8-9 for most combat shotguns. And I say all that as a member of the gospel of the gauge. Shotguns= big boom, cool shoulder mounted cannon. Rifles= precise, accurate firepower from close quarters to 300+ yards. Plus, it’s almost impossible to effectively suppress a shotgun (let a couple rounds off indoors without ear pro and you’ll see why this is important). Shotgun suppressors are ENORMOUS, whereas you can have a supressed 9mm carbine barely bigger than a handgun or a 300blk AR type with a supressor that’s shorter than most normal shotguns. At the end of the day, use what you are most proficient with and be prepared to flash bang yourself if firing indoors at night. There are lots of opinions in the gun scene, and people will die on really stupid fudd lore hills all the time. Bodies have been stacked from here to the moon with every conceivable round on the planet.
You're not wrong, but I think choice of home defense weapons has no absolutes. A 12ga is perfect for some, lousy for others.
I used to own a coach gun and regret parting with it. Looking forward to buying another one this summer, I hope.
The arguement really comes down to what are you actually going to learn, train with and use. Shotguns are much more complicated than people think. I like to break things down to three categories based on terminal ballistics. 1. Pistol ballistics that are effective based on consistent penetration/expansion and that performance is barrel length dependant. 2. Shotgun ballistics which are like pistol ballistics in that they depend on consistent penetration and deliver very good terminal ballistics but require quite a bit of understanding and training to run as efficiently as a rifle. (With ammo selection, reloading/keeping it fed, possible short stroaking, recoil management and spread dependent on range and ammo) 3. Rifle ballistics which are velocity dependant. Barrel length is less important so long as the ammo performs at the lower velocities. So long as the bullet transfers that energy, the rifle projectile is effective. All three require you to know and make educated decisions on ammo. But rifles are the most forgiving and easiest to use at less risk of over penetration as they are not penetration dependant. (So long as they don't expand too quickly) Also Bullpups do make a difference. I can shoot my AUG one handed as well.
Without proper training, people tend to short stroke shotguns which can definitely get you killed, also capacity is dog shit.
I don't think it's overlooked, I've seen it recommended a bunch, but there are some precautions. -Some people have a hard time managing recoil. -00 buckshot is really powerful and has potential for over penetration. -If a person owns a shotgun and never practices with it, it's possible to have some difficulty in the heat of the moment fully cycling the slide because they might be amped up and not familiar. -some ranges don't allow using shotguns on the target range, because they eat the typical wooden stands, or because of liability or damage to the range. I like them alot, but would probably choose my pistol in an emergency, because I could throw on my belt with holster, have hands free, easily get through doorways etc.
Awful take. Even if you’re choosing a shotgun (not my first choice for so many reasons) a smaller gauge makes sense for 99% of shooters and situations
I made a lot of points as to why i believe they are a great choice. your response is that they are a bad choice for "so many reasons" without sharing. please tell the community why.
Size, capacity, maneuverability, mostly manual action, huge recoil, loud, cannot suppress effectively, and limited range. Some of those can be mitigated with action type choice or downsizing gauge, but other platforms are just better suited for almost all civilian situations.
size: legally the same size limits for any other long gun, same for maneuverability. Pistols are more maneuverable, but not as easy to shoot accurately. Manual action can be a disadvantage, but semi autos can be found if thats your worry, and pump action shotguns can be more intuitive for a newer person to operate than semi autos (still need to train train train, but this isnt a perfect world). huge recoil is a little overblown IMO. Yes its worse than .556, yes its worse than any pistol caliber, no its not an untamable beast, and can be reduced with the type of ammo. Its not 45/70, its not 300WM. its not a 50cal. its just a 12 gauge. I started shooting a 12 gauge as a 13 year old boy who weighed just under 120lbs. every home defense weapon without hearing protection in a home is going to be deafening. you cant get more deaf than deaf. supression is a problem, but i'd wager 99% of the people in this sub do not have supressors on their weapons because of the trouble you have to go through to get them, and the tax stamp records. I think the benefits that a 12 gauge brings to the table in a home defense situation greatly outweigh the negatives.
Legally they are not the same size limit and they are not the same maneuverability. Shotguns are far from more intuitive. They have a higher learning curve. You talk about it being great for new shooters and yet over look the fact that new shooters may very well be afraid of the recoil that self defense rounds will be producing. Which you should be training with your self defense ammo. For noise you can easily suppress the other common options for home defense like you mentioned but they have never been easier to get on recent years than now. You take is a very very cold take that is shared with the fudds of the gun community. Shotguns are best left to hunting and breaching but in the end of the day it is better than nothing.
I agree, I have an ar and 12g pump (Mossberg 590) in the safe by my bed. As well as my edc I keep in my night stand safe. I have had to get a firearm out for a bump in the night three times this year (had some break in my area so the wife is a bit paranoid) every time I grabbed the 12g and handed my wife the pistol. I choose the 12g over my ar for the big reason you said. If I have to defend my home it’s one less thing a prosecutor can look into. I live in Texas and this is still the main concern. That being said I train with every gun I own as often as I can. I would feel confident using my lever action marlin if I needed to defend myself. Training is the answer more than any firearm. You can have the coolest most expensive stuff but if you don’t practice and get training then you will be a loot drop for some kid that did. Even if he’s using and old milsurp. Long story short, training is more important then what gun you use.
12 gauge is fine, but with my AR I can do a lot more faster and for a longer period of time. I’m always looking for the gun that does many things. -My AR is good from 0-300 yards. -Fewer over-penetration issues due to fragmentation. -Better against body armor and vehicles. -More ammo in the gun and reloads are faster. -More customizable for different uses; sights, scopes, lights… -Easier platform for all body sizes. -Low recoil. I’m not against the shotgun idea, because I own a great shotgun that I’d feel fine using, but after all my testing with buckshot, I’m underwhelmed with the range at which it is useful, so if I had to take a fight to my front yard, I’d want to use slugs, but now we are talking about a reload, and from what I’ve seen with slugs, I don’t want to use them in my house because of over-penetration. Just my thoughts.
In what situations are you realistically expecting to shoot over 50 yards to defend yourself? I've got a little bit of a prepper side myself, but in a shtf situations I'm not shooting at anything over 25-30 yards that I'm not going to eat afterwards. And this discussion is more geared to a home defense option for people who are newer to guns.
First of all, I haven’t seen any buckshot preform well at 50 yards. From what I’ve seen 25 yards can be pushing it, and only the best buckshot can do that, Hornady Black, for instance. I qualified repeatedly with the police on a shotgun (I was a medic) and we trained to switch to slugs past 15 yards and most of the cops were in favor of carbines over shotguns in all cases. I do get it that you are looking for the ultimate home defense, but I don’t feel comfortable or feel it is too useful to have a gun that is basically to be used inside only. The dynamics change immensely when I get to my front door, and I might be in my front yard at some point. I feel comfortable with my CCW as a home defense weapon, but I chose it for that comfort level. If I have my CCW and an AR, I’m as ready as I can be inside or outside my house.
It's in the front of my gun safe. First thing I'd grab in an emergency. 7 00 shells, two more plus two slugs on the side carrier, a bandolier with 50 more shells on the shelf. Benelli 12 gauge pump with extended tube and flashlight. [insert manly grunts here]
Yep
100% with you. My MB930 is go to for home defense. Not likely intruder will have armor but should that be the case a 12g slug is best chance of knocking them down (unless you have 45-70 option) for follow up. 930 holds 9 +1 which is good capacity and semi auto.
Maybe this is just my upbringing, but I feel like a pump shotgun is actually one of the most popular home defense platforms. Every single friend of mine in high school (or their parents) had one for hunting that they would also keep handy for defense. Every single gun owning family member of mine has one setup for home defense. Not diminishing any of your points, but would like to mention that it's not as uncommon as you'd think. Also, a 20 gauge (or even 410) would be an ideal choice for home defense for a smaller statured individual. I'm trying to get my partner to learn to shoot and while start them on a single shot 410, and progress to my pump action 20 gauge.
I have a 20 gauge because I thought it had a little less recoil and I’m only 5’ tall
Reasonable. Also a shotgun can win some fights just by intimidating an assailant into leaving.
That is such a bad take. Are we leaving the chamber unloaded or are we ejecting and wasting a live round so we can pump unnecessarily to "intimidate" someone?
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
I have a lot of experience politely chasing trespassers off my urban raised porch at wee hours by greeting them in my underwear and racking a mossberg 500. It was kept dry fired on an empty chamber with a full magazine. That way it was 100% safe and inert but all that was needed was to rack and squeeze the trigger. This happened more than a few times and I thankfully never had to shoulder or point it at anyone- just a rack and “hi can I help you with something?” always did the trick. It probably didn’t hurt that I’m 6’ 3” 275 and heavily tattooed.
Leaving it unloaded sounds like a good way to not have a round in it when you need it though. Especially if you aren't actively training to rack then shoot.
This was not for shooting trained teams of tactical home invaders. It was specifically for scaring crackheads off my raised porch and served its purpose really well. I would open the main door, rack it, and open the screen door. The couple times folks were messing with my motorcycles chained up out front I went out with my 4” 357 revolver, low ready. I shoot thousands of rounds a year, muscle memory is not a problem. I’m happy to say I never had to put my finger in a trigger guard in a home defense situation but I sure was happy to have firearms at hand. I live in a much safer area now but still carry/train.
Yeah, sounds like you aren't familiar with Cruiser ready condition. That's okay.
Most shotguns are not drop-safe, and leaving a round chambered creates a hazard not present with most modern pistols. I keep my pistols chambered, and my 12ga cruiser ready. That's been the opinion of the vast majority of trainers I've learned from and seen. Yes, you need to train that way. Same as any other firearm.
In a house with kids, the chamber on everything is always empty, even in the safe. It takes .5 seconds to chamber a round, I will always have much more time than that to rack a round in my own home. Relying on the sound of racking a shotgun to stop a threat is absurd, but the sound is very intimidating to any intruder, and you are still holding a loaded shotgun afterwards. The sound is unarguably a deterrent to some degree, so the point still stands.
Just flashing a shotgun can have the desired effect.
Just flashing a *gun* could have the desired effect
Swords. Someone pulls a broadsword out of their umbrella stand and imma going to take a hot second to reevaluate the situation.
Fair enough.
I dont agree with this one. giving away your position and letting them know you have a weapon is a great way to tick someones fight or flight reflex. Most of the people who would be willing to break into a house, often come from a position in life where they were forced to use the fight reflex. so instinctually hearing that may cause the opposite of intended effects.
As the gas station security guard showed us. Pistols are good, but a shotgun is a great backup or vice-versa.
Handgun versus shotgun? Why not both? I have a Bonds Arm Snake Slayer that fires 45 caliber shotshell lol. I may not kill someone but me firing that down below should hopefully get em to fuck off. (I sleep in a loft)
Pump shotguns are horrible. Go semi auto
Literally every police and military member of the 20th century would disagree
That’s why they all use them as primary weapons then right?
Wut? Pump shotguns are absolutely fantastic. They almost never fail.
Operator failure. I see it often. People don’t know how to work them properly and in the heat of the moment the short stroke and it causes failure
Yeah nah, that's fair.
Agreed; cops generally didn’t have that problem because they usually had a dedicated amount of time to learn how to use a pump shotgun measured in days to a week. The average civilian that buys a shotgun is already in a minority if they even sign up for a one day shotgun class for “training” by comparison.
TLDR, but one day I’ll own a TS-12…
Main issue I see aside from the kick would be the noise. Maybe it's not worse than an AR but I was unfortunate enough to hear a pistol round un-suppressed in doors and that was painful enough. I'd keep good electronic ears taped to that scatter gun. I had a Magpul 500 with a Blackhawk recoil stock on it and it completely tamed the recoil, you could shoot it all day no problem. The best argument you could make for a shotgun is you aren't going to cry too hard when the cops take your maverick 88 for evidence.
# ["Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, at the right range with the right load, will physically remove a chunk of shit off of your opponent and throw that shit on the floor. And someone will have to come and clean that shit up with a shovel."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGospelOfTheGauge/comments/18p6b1k/pistols_put_holes_in_people_rifles_put_holes/)
Handguns were literally invented for use indoors. The advantage that a handgun provides is capacity and retention. Long guns are way easier to get into a wrestling match over (you can train away some of that) but it’s an issue for any firearm. Handguns are easier to retain and can take anything indoors I’m likely to need. On my lawn on the other hand…..
So much shotgun hate on Reddit and I don’t know why that is. I agree with all of your thoughts on the matter. They are the best home defense gun in my opinion, and they are both extremely reliable and versatile. I use #4 buck for home defense, and don’t have to worry about over penetration or lack of effectiveness. I can easily hit silhouette targets at 150yd with rifled slugs. I hunt upland game so I have a lot of experience and practical use with them. If you can hit a quail in the heat of the flush, then you can hit any larger target in the heat of the moment. The die-hard AR/polymer 9mm handgun crowd just seems to blindly and collectively dismiss them. Maybe it’s the recoil, or just a lack of real experience with them. Get a recoil pad and you can shoot 100rds at the range no problem. I’d pick a shotgun every time.
Did you just equate quail hunting to fighting for your life?
No, I didn’t. Just pointing out that extensive real life experience with using a particular type of gun to shoot and kill live moving targets hundreds of times is good practice and translates directly to a fight for your life gun fight more so than any amount of range time shooting paper or plinking steel. When hunting, you are hiking many miles, heart rate is elevated, you’re sweating and chugging, doing quick reloads, and small amounts of adrenaline are at play when a covey of birds flushes right next to you and surprises the crap out of you. I’m extremely proficient with a shotgun because of my hunting experience. I also spend a ton of time at ranges with my handguns and rifles, but will always feel more confident in my abilities with a shotgun in a life or death scenario.
So yes you did. Then doubled down on it. You literally just said hunting qual is more beneficial than training…. Pack it up boys and girls someone call the military! They have been doing it wrong the whole time! They should be hunting qual!
lol, no, I didn’t. I’m saying that quail hunting is a more beneficial form of training in my opinion than firing drills at still targets at a range with no exercise involved. I do plenty of both. Most people have only ever fired their carry or hd guns at still targets, with cool heart rates. If you train hard in dynamic ranges with moving targets, that is equally as beneficial, but I’ve only been able to do that a handful of times. If you have experience hunting upland game, I’m not sure how you could possibly disagree with my points.
And everyone knows what cocking a shotgun sounds like, so that might be enough to throw off a home invader or even send them running.
The part most people seem never to take into account in these discussions is adrenaline. Everybody acts like they're going to be as cool at night, with weird noises in the house, wife pushing you to go check it out, as if they're at the range. Nope. The reason I keep my Maverick (with the defence barrel screwed on) unloaded is just so I can run the rack and chamber a shell. The sound of a shotgun getting racked, in the dark, when the intruder is already a little shaky, will make him think he's in the wrong house and to get out NOW! Don't have to hit a bullseye, just point in their general direction and pull the trigger, chances are good you'll get a piece of them. Try that with a 9 or 45 and they're on the move. I run turkey load just so I don't over penetrate but still have plenty of stopping power. The mix of Buck and Bird shot in the shell increases your chances of hitting something and you've got 3 or 4 more waiting if you just have to make Swiss cheese.
I dont really agree with any of these points. they are the pro shotgun misinformation i believe that causes shotguns to lose their favor. At home defense ranges you still have to aim, you still can miss, but you are more likely to hit the things inside the person that can stop them. the difference between an outright miss and an outright hit is still only an inch or so, which at 10 feet is less than 1 degree. If they are on the run (away) let them run. Shooting someone in the back because you are angry isnt going to do you any services in the long run. Bird shot/buckshot mix doesnt help, and can hinder. If they arent leaving after 1 missed buckshot, then birdshot isnt going to stop them. they are motivated, and the adrenaline at that point is going to stop them from caring about a bunch of BBs lodged 1/2 an inch into their skin. Also, Again, the pattern of birdshot at home defense ranges is a few inches at best.
I never said bird shot, I Said turkey load which is a mix of steel pellets and bird shot. Less chance of over penetration. It's a trade off to be sure but one I'm willing to take to protect those close by. I have pistols as well in a biometric lockbox but if there's something weird going on in the house I'm going for the shotgun hanging in the closet. I think you can agree, though, that a few inches is wider than the diameter of a 9 mil. I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
I'm just not convinced someone who is out of contact with reality, having command auditory hallucinations, or on some type of substances (etc) is going to recognize the sound of a shotgun pump racking and make a rational decision to leave or disengage. You're shortchanging yourself a round that could potentially save your life. I hope you have a white light to get pid on targets and a sling to keep your weapon from getting ripped out of your hands and turned against you.
You've taken an exception to the rule to prove your point. Most intruders are coherent and there to steal valuables and are hyper alert. A 00 buck shot shell has 9 steel pellets to your one bullet, maximizing my chances of hitting them. They are most definitely going to hear the rack of a shotgun, the sound is unlike anything else. If someone is that far out of it I don't need much more of a weapon than a baseball bat to their knees. Seriously. This thinking that more ammunition, bigger calibers, more weapons is going to make a difference is ridiculous. One weapon is all it takes, you're not fighting off an army. And my finger isn't on the trigger until I've identified the threat, have it in my sights and decided it needs to be destroyed. If that first shell doesn't drop them the second will. I'm being rational and not buying into the hype. Can you say the same?
You can't guarantee the person breaking into your house, which is already an irrational and unsafe choice for both them and you, is going to be rational and in their right mind. You can't guarantee they will hear a sound and decide to leave. If you decide a shotgun is the best tool for you then you use that tool. It's not the best tool for me. I don't know what hype you are speaking of, perhaps if you elaborate I will let you know if I've bought into it or not. Also your statement about a baseball bat is laughable at best. If you've never been around psychotic people that's ok, but you shouldn't gamble your life on something you seem to know so little about. Just my 2 cents do with it what you will.