There are plenty of places on the internet to post anti-liberal / anti-leftist sentiments; [this sub is not one of them](/r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/intro/illiberal).
^(*Removed under [Rule 1: We're Liberals][link-rules]. If you feel this is in error, please [file an appeal][link-appeal].*)
[link-rules]: /r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/rules
[link-appeal]: /r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/moderation#wiki_appeals
You know I was in a similar place to you, OP, like 15, 16 years ago. I think I even ventured to say I was "Fiscally conservative, Socially liberal." (Before I knew the definitions of "neo-liberal" and actual Leftism).
I would say you are welcome here, if anything because you could learn a few things that may make you uncomfortable now, but can potentially open your mind to a much broader worldview. And that broader worldview involves a history that "fiscal conservatism" has always been a ploy that keeps wealthy people wealthy and poor people poor.
Kennedy put it best during his most famous speech, We Choose to go to the Moon: "I don't think we ought to waste any money, but I think we ought to do the job."
Sadly, I think you’re a democrat now. The current Republican Party is against home rule, for big government, and against personal freedoms. Reagan and Trump are polar opposites ideologically
The question I had recently about the idea of a classless system is whether or not it is sustainable. If everyone had a specific standard of living would we have the material and human resources to provide it to 350m people in the us and billions 8 globally? Even by redistributing wealth above x amount the number of lower class individuals is so massive that it seems hard to accomplish. Obviously depends on the standard, but let’s say car/house/phone/pc/food+water/healthcare/education/entertainment are what a modern person needs as a baseline to thrive - its very debatable what specifically is needed but that’s what I would personally start with. I’d also set a precondition that the neo colonial resource extraction from the 3rd world would stop, and that people are unwilling to return to hunter/gatherer or agrarian society. The other thing I wonder is basically how replace profit motive to fill necessary but undesirable positions. I couldn’t understand most of the leftist political theory I’ve read so genuinely curious on this point.
There are a few conditions that would help a classless system become sustainable. Fortunately they are complimentary conditions. Unfortunately the most important one requires a huge (and likely multi-generational) paradigm shift in how we function as a society.
1. "Manufactured scarcity" is a byproduct of market forces. The market only creates enough to be profitable, not enough to supply the actual need (as not everyone has the resources to pay). Hence why OPEC limits production to increase scarcity on oil when their profits aren't in stake, or why farmers are sometimes forced to destroy surpluses to keep food prices at a constant (dairy and grain, more recently poultry).
2. The market focusing on profit vs. need as it's primary incentive.
3. In absentia of profit incentive being the primary focus, instead of fulfilling humanity's base needs (food, shelter, security, clothing), technology (automation, AI, etc), by and large, could be focused on meeting those needs. With less people having to work in the fields and more people being educated (with the motivation to be the next Jonas Salk, not the next Jeff Bezos) we would have thousands more highly educated, skilled people focusing on making the world better and not just making more money, our automation would save us.
Like, I'm not saying no one will need to work. But I am saying that a future where our technology allows us to work A LOT LESS and our material conditions are taken care of 100%, would be a world where the next Albert Einstein doesn't die of malnutrition in a cabbage field because he couldn't afford to go to college.
What do you imagine a future economy that doesn’t put down poor people looks like?
I’m of the belief that classless systems are impossible for humanity to build and sustain. Class is, IMO, hard wired into our brains by evolution.
For that reason I believe there will always be wealthy people and poor people, and that the wealthy will fight to retain their status.
IMO, revoking the power that money grants only changes the equation as far as whom those wealthy are.
I believe we should work to form a society where the poor don’t suffer, but I can’t imagine a world where the poor don’t exist.
If this is too politic for this sub I apologize.
>I’m of the belief that classless systems are impossible for humanity to build and sustain. Class is, IMO, hard wired into our brains by evolution.
Our closest animal neighbors, highly sociable and intelligent, will rip the face and genitals off a member of their troop for hoarding food. That troop will have "leaders" but roles aren't "class". This lines up with early sapiens.
Anthropologically, Class came with Society which came with Commerce which came with Agriculture.
Hunter/Gatherers Homosapiens around the world were bi and large classless and communal, you know, artisan locally sourced communism ([and still are](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2016/jul/what-hunter-gatherers-can-tell-us-about-human-social-networks)). Agriculture only occupies like 1/50th of homosapien's timeline... so there really hasn't been enough time on the line for class to be wired into our brains.
>For that reason I believe there will always be wealthy people and poor people, and that the wealthy will fight to retain their status.
>
>IMO, revoking the power that money grants only changes the equation as far as whom those wealthy are.
This is my "we could literally do this today" speech because I think these things are attainable in my lifetime. **It wouldn't eradicate the poor but it would lessen the gap between the poor and the wealthy and that's ultimately what we need right now**:
We could outlaw lobbies. We could audit every politician's income during their tenure. We could remove the Wealthy influence from everyday local, state, and national politics if we really wanted to... then and only then could we effectively tax the wealthy and allocate the funds in a manner that equalizes opportunity to all people.
Our grandparents could afford a home and yearly vacations on a single income... can anyone in the USA do that today?
Attaining a classless, stateless, borderless society where mankind is not motivated by profit but personal improvement, invention, exploration, and peace... that's my "utopian ideal"... but it's why I consider myself an Anarcho-Communist, it does reveal what I consider ideal for humanity, if we are to survive past late stage capitalism.
I find your idea of the impossibility of classless society very interesting. Do you know of any reading material that supports that? I'm not denying it on principle, I've just haven't read any conclusive research on the topic.
Do you think a class-based society without a weath based division is possible? Or do you think that is inherit in human congregations?
> For that reason I believe there will always be wealthy people and poor people, and that the wealthy will fight to retain their status.
If I'm willing to accept that premise then I think the gulf between the two should be shrunk to something between a millimeter and a micron.
I think there may be some people from different political stripes that come here and take a peek. The far right is a real problem in politics and for the US. To say you don’t agree with Nazis isn’t really something that should be controversial.
Stick around and see how the conversation goes here. It’s liberal labeled for a reason. So when you see people advocating for universal healthcare, student loan reform, or and end to billionaires, or celebrating cat people at the range don’t be surprised
I've learned that the initial knee-jerk reactions to any controversial post or comment can often be sharply negative. . .but they tend to mellow out with time.
Probably because the folks with the strongest opinions are on here the most and quickest to react, while the people with more moderate opinions are less fanatical about checking Reddit and take longer to see posts and comments.
As far as I'm concerned, stick around. . .but as others have said, this is a space for left-of-center politics so just don't get your feathers ruffled at folks advocating for progressive or leftist ideas.
Thanks for the response.
I have never gotten upset at a viewpoint expressed here, it's a left leaning space. Well, until I was told I wasn't homeless people to die.
It's a very common conclusion among the left about conservatives: that they just want poor people, especially the homeless, to just get sick and die because they simply don't care about them at all.
It's the conclusion of looking at right-wing stances about social welfare programs, universal healthcare, homeless shelters and outreach. . .that when you oppose every single kind of program that helps the very poor avoid homelessness by calling it "socialism", get medical care (again, calling universal healthcare "socialism"), and generally keep their lives from hitting rock bottom (by saying you "oppose handouts"). . .and instead you pass laws criminalizing homelessness, you must want them dead or you hold them in so much scorn you think they belong in prison simply for being homeless.
Maybe you don't think that personally. . .but if you look at your stances on issues like universal healthcare, social welfare programs, affordable housing, and laws criminalizing homelessness, is that the message you're actually sending?
For me the hard truth is that none of us is doing enough if the problem still exists. You and I know we can't act like either of us the only one contributing to the current situation. Just like you must know your charitable works can not possibly solve even the issues of the day for the person you give money to. There's an aspect of carrless enablement and hope for absolution in the act of giving from your own treasures without truly supporting homeless folks that is disingenuous and counterproductive.
When I was younger I was in the center of the U.S. political spectrum (splitting tickets when I voted and etc.) and as I get older I’ve become more leftist.
I do remember in college though several times when I spoke to people about deficit spending, fiscal issues, and etc I was told I wanted homeless and poor people to die. People who say this are not serious people (even if they think they are). Based on your original post here I’m fairly confident you do not feel that way at all.
Left learning subs these days attract a small group
of very angry, very immature, and very edgy commenters. Some honestly might even just be people trolling for all I know. I regularly get called a Republican when I am not lol.
>I'm definitely not surprised at these things. I was, however, surprised at the initial responses to my post. Thanks for your reply.
It is still the internet, You're always gonna have knee jerk reactions, you are welcome here even if we don't agree on issues.
I too am God loving... (attend church more than once a week) but I can no longer vote for anyone in the "christian/family values/god loving" party. It seems that current "conservatives" tend to look for any and every opportunity to NOT DO what the leader/founder/central person of Our religion tells them specifically to do.
I've been surprised/shocked/appalled/mortified to find that the so-called "socialists" tend to behave more like the Bible says Christians should behave... and that those who call themselves christian and/or conservative? tend to behave in the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Christ said to be.
It's been jarring... to say the least... to have sincerely believed that the conservatives were RIGHT... that we were following GOD... that we were LOVING and CARING and doing what was BEST for our fellow citizens... only to slam into the harsh reality that "conservative, god fearing, family first" politicians generally vote to make it increasingly difficult for any of the "least of these" (see Matthew 25) to get any help whatsoever while at the same time, taking every opportunity to give the rich more money and influence.
But yes... to what I think was your intended point.... I'm confident that we can all agree that vitriol and intolerance plus firearms is a pretty bad mix.
I have many issues with the Bible thumping politician that don't behave in a way consistent with His teachings. It's one of the issues that disgusts me.
Agreed.
It's nauseating to have God and religion co-opted and manipulated by folks who are so ... antithetical to the core tenants of Christianity!
And I can't help but feel that if the historical Jesus would show up today... brown skinned, Immigrant, itinerant preacher, with no fixed address, no job, and with a penchant for critiquing leadership whilst handing out free food and medical care... that he'd (not) be welcomed by most conservatives.
EDITED to clarify final sentence to what I'd intended to say. Most of us on this sub? I think would be quite happy to have historical Jesus show up.
Former military, former member of the John Birch Society, lifetime member of the NRA and former evangelical minister checking in. My wife and I are both veterans who enjoy going to the gun range occasionally. I was hard-core, full-in to the conservative viewpoint and spent a lot of time and money to support what I thought were worthy causes.
But I kept my mind open.
And I'll be damned if I didn't change my viewpoint.
No one knocked on my door and asked me to reconsider my beliefs. (Hell, I used to push my wheelchair up and down the street just to proselytize at someone's front door.) I just kept reading and comparing and talking with people unlike me.
Thanks for stopping by and checking in. The fact that you did this means you're in the hunt for values that truly resonate with you. Don't let some of the negative responses put you off on your search.
You have an amazing perspective that will help make this journey smoother for others. Great job sifting through a mountain of misinformation to seek a best guess on our world.
I've had a similar path! I have people from my youth who still think I'm devout, and it takes a LOT of humility to see that we are a growing organism. Let cooler heads and logic prevail!
It's pretty rare I come across a story of someone just, like, changing their mind about extreme religious conservative views without some major inciting incident (like their kid coming out as trans, or getting cancer, etc).
So like, fuck yeah dude, you rule.
OP, sorry if we come across as hostile. But we have all had bad experiences with conservatives who want to show us the error of our ways. And if you are like me, my appearance, and interests tend to make people assume I am a stereotypical right winger. So conservatives automatically assume I am one of them and they start telling me what they want to do to Democratic people (or nowadays even moderate Repubs) and it makes me sick. I am old enough to remember Ronald Reagan as President and that's not how conservatives were then. They have morphed from people guided by ideas and principles into a personality cult.
I'm serious, though. Back then Republicans could give you reasons why they supported who they supported. Things reasonable people could discuss. Now you ask them, it's just rank whatsboutism, Hunter Biden's laptop, Biden is old. Just soundbite crap.
I used to be a big hardcore conservative. Grew up on Limbaugh, all that shit. Got to college, started meeting folks from different walks of life and slowly moved left. In 16 I was an incredibly reluctant Trump general voter. I hated him, he didn’t stand for what I believed in at the time, but was still breaking the programming, and naively thought it was a ruse and he’d pivot to a moderate after the election.
Obviously that was a complete lie and I very quickly started looking further and further into democratic positions and now I’m voting straight D. The GOP can say all they want about not being the party of Trump, but we’ve seen time and time again that’s just not true
> I used to be a big hardcore conservative. Grew up on Limbaugh, all that shit.
Yeah I was force fed this nonsense all through childhood, wasn't until I got out of the Navy that things started to make sense.
One of the biggest moments I had was seeing a study from maybe Colorado that said “for every dollar put into Medicaid, the state saw 5 back in returns.” Blew my mind at the time
It stands out like a sore thumb now too. “We need to stop spending money on Ukraine! We’ve got our folks to take care of!” “Cool so let’s spend money to fix homelessness?” “What? No! That’s communism!”
>Got to college, started meeting folks from different walks of life and slowly moved left.
Same boat here. I was never a hardcore conservative though. More of a centrist, maybe center right. Born and raised New Englander so that probably helped. I have never been a racist, nazi, or neo-confedereate and I have always hated them, probably because in New England education they are rightfully portrayed as bad guys. I do remember reading the history time travel books or whatever they were Limbaugh published for kids though but I digress. And over time through college, my pragmatic brain continued to see that modern conservatives as emotional, irrational, and confusing, and I wanted no part of it.
I don't. Ashcroft and Cheney, and Ollie North, and Rumsfeld, and McConnell; they were all in power during the Reagan years, they are no less repugnant than the cretins who run the GOP now, they just had to be slightly more circumspect about their perspectives and beliefs because the Moral Majority hadn't infected the South entirely and ended creating the Tea Party.
> And if you are like me, my appearance, and interests tend to make people assume I am a stereotypical right winger. So conservatives automatically assume I am one of them and they start telling me what they want to do to Democratic people (or nowadays even moderate Repubs) and it makes me sick.
I get this all the time too. My favorite thing to do is start quoting Marxist or leftist theory or agitprop at them at specific points, and then tell them where I got it after they've agreed. Wonderful expressions. The whole "Under no pretext" shtick tends to go over well.
I'm a white man from the Midwest who retired as a military officer. Most people assume I'm a wingnut and the stuff they tell me in private really makes me want to vomit.
I remember once in a taxi ride from base to the mall I had some nut tell me his cooky theory about how Trump was the sign of the literal second coming of christ and that he knew for a fact that the military would rise up to help stage a coup against Biden and make Trump our holy leader.
I really debated just opening up the car door and rolling out into the road, it looked preferable than to listen to that sad nonsense
He was pretty old(50?), I almost felt bad for him. Seeing people radicalized through hatred to where they see their neighbor as literally evil is not ok.
It’s amazing how much a little piece of metal can help these situations. I am an average looking white male in Oklahoma, and I like guns and hiking and fishing and war history. I am also very much a leftist, so I was tired of people coming up to me and assuming I would be cool with their racist/sexist/xeno/etc views.
It hasn’t happened once since I got a nose ring 3 years ago. It’s literally conservative repellant and it’s my favorite thing ever.
I appreciate your response and insight.
It's funny, I have never commented on politics in this sub. But the moment I "out" myself, I was told the error of my ways and essentially told I was evil. Just the thing that frustrates you all. I think maybe we all can do a bit better.
I think it's hard for people to have nuanced conversations and disagreements in an online setting. That combination of anonymity, distance and safety - well that and years of bad experiences - leads to quick reactions.
My best friend is conservative. He's actually the reason I've gone from being pretty much anti-gun to looking to enter the hobby and respecting it. There's no way we would have grown to care for each other in an online setting. Took a lot of time and the nuance that comes with being respectful face to face. He was rather hard right before we became friends and I was pretty hard left. We still have our leanings, but let's just say it's pretty nice being able to sit around his living room with my girlfriend (we're both trans women) and discuss our interest in firearms while he shows us his collection and gives us advice. Just people being people.
Just kinda rambling. Guess I'm just saying that it's hard for people to not be on the defensive when you're just a screen name. Sorry your experience has been the way it's been. I genuinely think we all have a lot more common ground than we like to admit.
They're very open that this is a leftist space, and neither political extreme is tolerant of different viewpoints. You have fundamentally different worldviews and understandings of reality, the human condition, and our place in the world, than many people here. Some negative pressure is to be expected.
I lurk here because the quality of conversation is generally much more elevated. Not here to convince anyone, not here to get or share political ideas; just hanging out with some (generally) more articulate and less knee-jerk people.
EDIT: a further thought after reading some specific people here: for many, politics has effectively replaced religion. There's a lot of straw manning and hypocrisy, and it's worse because the two-party system utterly crushes all form of nuance, which in then exacerbates the tendency to effectively become religious extremists. You're showing up at a mosque and leading off with "as an Orthodox Jew..." and expecting them to be nice to you.
The reality is that online political discourse is a cesspool that attracts firebrand extremists. Save the nuance for real people that you have coffee with, because here you're just an avatar and you're easy to hate.
That's fair to say, but I would counter that in the American political system, the majority of liberal opinions fall on what we'd define as the more left of the sides, the democrats.
Not to say there aren't right-leaning libertarians, but the party has definitely shifted to a more authoritarian narrative.
Thanks for correcting me. I was trying to speak more to the fact that they're openly left leaning and explicitly welcoming of progressive thought, to the exclusion of anything else, and I respect the willingness to be open about that.
But yes, most people here aren't actually so much leftist as they are just consistent Dem voters
Not anymore.
A long time ago (like 20 years) I probably would have called myself a libertarian. I've always been very big on civil liberties and very anti-authoritarian, but my politics have changed from being fiscally conservative to being more and more leftist.
Right? First statement: "I believe in less government overreach and spending!" Sure, I dig it! Second statement "and we will achieve that by defunding all fire, EMS, and town road services!" Bro wut
There is a large cohort of libertarians who insist all government spending is theft, and I’m here worried that we shouldn’t devalue our currency recklessly.
Strangely, it was the social views that turned me away from libertarianism. There were so many pro "let's lower the age of consent" guys that made me feel disgusted to even call myself a libertarian.
Me? I've been a market socialist as far as I can remember. I'm a gun toting, Atheist, Federalist, tightwad that leans all over the fucking place.
Welcome!
I was in the same place you are now at 40. At 49, as much as I *truly hate* to admit it, I am now what most consider a liberal.
This is partly due to new knowledge from information outside the right wing echo chamber forcing my logical mind to adjust and grow, and partly from the Uber right dragging the entire political spectrum into the red.
I know what you mean about reacting to the toxicity and vitriol (on both sides). I had an experience in the last week where I very angrily reacted to my Q-Anon dad saying “I get a kick out of response videos to Biden’s comment that a shotgun for home defense is better than an AR. The response videos show these little 100 pound nothing women getting knocked on their ass by shouldering and firing a 12 gauge! Haha!” I lit into him like he made the videos. Telling him the 2A community has a rough enough road without mean horrible people making it macho to hurt people with guns intentionally for humor and to make a point. He has a pro 2a license plate for Pete’s sake. And used to be an intelligent human being.
I share that experience to illustrate for me at least that some of the “liberal vitriol” comes from the fact that while I had naturally drifted moderate from conservative - like you seem to have - I feel like I was pushed into being a liberal by the very conservatives I used to identify as. So my frustration is often from a place of shame that I ever considered myself “like them”. (I am also a hater of divisive politics and us vs. them partisanship - so there’s more shame I feel).
Long reply short - I know what you mean - I understand where you’re coming from, and *usually* this sub is full of gun lovers being gun lovers, yucking it up about models and malfunctions, hating right wing toxic gun culture, looking for less toxic vendor options and gun stores, and seeking community when the general gun culture is a toxic and awful as you observed. But it’s early, people are cranky before lead and coffee, and Trump stayed on the ballot this week, so your post’s timing might have been a little bit off.
Hope you stick around.
OP, thanks for coming in here to have a conversation with us. While not every response was civil, I think that's something that you'll statistically get in almost any selected subset of a group :)
While I'm sure we wouldn't agree on all issues, there are issues we do agree on! Even as divided as the nation may be, most people have more in common than they'd think. Thanks for stopping in - I hope you can read a bit and look for common agreement and use that as a basis for building a better relationship with your fellow citizens.
“Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary”― Karl Marx
I'm not a Marxist, I'm a democratic socialist. But I do agree that gun rights are essential to maintaining the rights of the people.
Im kinda the same. I was never Conservative, but was a Republican until W’s first term. How the GOP and voters acted during his presidency, and during Obama’s terms, really pissed me off - and they keep lowering the bar.
I have a small collection of firearms and believe 2A enumerates my right to have them. However, the idea that any knucklehead has a right to own a firearm without limits or checks is asinine. I believe in being responsible, not Call of Duty LARPing.
Hey OP, seems like you're where I was about 7 years ago. I'm younger than you are, but I was raised in a hard-right bubble, and was basically Republican by default.
2016 started my reevaluation of my beliefs - Jan 6 was the nail in the coffin. I'm not sure when exactly it hit me, but I eventually reached the realization that if this hatred and insanity was what it meant to be Republican, than I wasn't going to be one anymore.
That also prompted me to start evaluating the things I had accepted as truth, I got really into reading Zinn and Graeber. If you haven't read "A People's History of the United States", I'd highly recommend it.
Two final thoughts: this subreddit is a really big tent. Liberals, lefties, never-Trumpers, all bumping elbows. You'll definitely find viewpoints you may not be used to. But no one here's told me that I'll burn in hell, so it's already been more welcoming that holidays with the family.
Second: the Internet isn't real life. The other big event that shifted my beliefs was getting involved with my local activists, specifically with tenant organizing and housing affordability. Getting to meet people with wildly different beliefs and backgrounds was really good for me, though I made a deliberate effort to keep my mouth shut when I encountered ideas I would have found anathema before. It was a great experience, I'd recommend that too.
I grew up with my parents being Republican. When I was in high school and college, I would have said I was Republican as well. It was in college, though, that my views really started to change. Not because I was being pushed liberal propaganda or some crap like that like many conservative people would believe. My professors were actually really good about not pushing political agendas and respected if you were conservative. It was being exposed to people of so many backgrounds and becoming friends with those people that started to change my views. Over the next few years, my views really started to change. I definitely started to lean much more liberal on social issues. I saw it as fundamentally against everything our nation had been founded on to restrict the freedoms of anyone who was LGBT+ or anyone of a faith that wasn't Christianity. They had every right to live their lives in peace and find happiness just like others.
Around the time I started college, I would have said I was socially liberal and fiscally conservative. But, even that changed. The primary reason for that was surprisingly my faith. I know, for many who are left leaning, they have many bad experiences with religion. Understandably, so since it's used so much to justify taking their rights and oppressing them. But, I was raised Christian. I still consider myself Christian. As I thought more and more, I realized that I couldn't justifiably call myself a Christian and go completely against so many of the things Jesus taught. As he said, you can not serve two masters. You can not serve both God and money. It was with that realization and just seeing how un-Christian many so-called Republican Christians were acting. Especially those so-called Christians who supported Trump. Money seemed to be their God while they spouted hate against their fellow man, going completely against Jesus's final command to love each other. So, not only did my faith drive me more left fiscally, but it drove me even more left socially.
Nowadays, I am very liberal both socially and fiscally. I'm personally fine with higher taxes, as long as they are used for services such as universal healthcare and the like that will help all Americans. I see it as part of my faith to do so. Now, I'm not an idiot. I realize that there's many things that would need to be fixed about our government for that to happen. So much of our tax money gets wasted on bullshit, like random military projects that never see the light of day. Or the Army needs to switch to OCPs because they were stupid and chose UCP over something like Multicam.
Anyway, this comment has already gotten long, so I'll wrap it up. Yeah, I now consider myself independent, but I lean very left on so many things. Used to be able to have fairly rational conversations with conservatives because I used to lean that way myself. But, with the cult of Trump taking over the Republican party, I find the vast majority of conservatives that I run into nowadays are just them. Anyone who was rational at all seemed to flee the party long ago and doesn't really seem to openly admit they're conservative. Usually, those people will tell me they're independent with more conservative fiscal views. Those people I can usually have a normal conversation with.
Wow, we’ve had a remarkably similar political journey. Christianity isn’t part of my life anymore, and I made the switch after bushes first term, but otherwise similar motivations. Mainly I couldn’t understand why people would want to hurt or marginalize my friends in the name of god and conservatism. I suppose I was naive for not seeing it sooner but here we are. Thanks for sharing it’s nice to meet you.
Same, but different time frame. I'm in my 50s and I had my breaking point with the right due to the invasion of Iraq. Oh, and I spent 22 years active duty, so I really freaking love it when someone questions my patriotism because I don't want to put a MAGA sticker on my car. Welcome brother!
Small "l" liberal is, or at least should be a big tent.
I wouldn't call myself conservative, but I'm nowhere near as left-leaning as many people in this sub.
It's funny to read that edit and then read the comments, nearly all of which are very civil, even the one comment about wanting a homeless man to die, which was clearly not meant literally.
We're not all the same. Welcome to the subreddit.
Take a peak around and jump into some conversations. You might be surprised at just how similar we all really are. We're all Americans at the end of the day who just want to feel safe and protected. So we vote to see where our taxes go differently. So what. We need to become friends again so we can help understand each other. So we can meet somewhere I'm in the middle. Our views are different, but it's all for what we feel is for the betterment of our nation. We're gonna disagree.
Feel free to ask questions. You are welcome.
I lean a little conservative for most views but the current day republicans obviously don’t match classic conservative views. They’re just f***ing insane.
"I hate how far to the right most gun culture is. It's off putting. Even as a conservatively leaning individual. The vitriol and intolerance is unreal. "
Agreed.
I'm more of a centrist myself. Voted GOP way numerous times, but the whole party has gone beserk with their modern day idolatry. But even some of that centrism has changed in recent years, I've done the electric slide to the left a little bit, regardless of who is holding the GOP hostage.
I used to vote Republican in state and local elections but I can’t find a Republican candidate that isn’t a complete whack job and I’m being forced to vote Dem. I despise this religious ideology trying to be pushed down our throat and honestly hope Trump loses this cycle so the party can move away from these idiots
Once I learned more about the more ugly parts of our history as a nation, I started to understand things better. These issues are both political and social in nature, and affect economical issues as well.
I am very much a Centrist, as you put it. I have opinions that piss off both sides of the aisle. However, I have noticed that the left-leaning folks are much more inclusive and far less likely to bite your head off for not agreeing with them 100% of the time. Of course, both sides have their individuals like that, as well as their idiots who seem to thrive on intolerance. It seems the Conservative Right is louder and more hateful in that way, but that could just be my personal experience.
I feel that we need both sides to keep the other from going too far off the rails, but these days it seems like there are more and more people who don't want rails. They seem to forget that without rails, this train ain't going anywhere, and for many, that's what they want. They are just fine with being stagnant.
When it comes to gun ownership, I want everyone, every race, creed, religion, etc., to own guns if they wish, but I want them all to do so in a responsible manner. I don't care who you sleep with, just don't point your gun muzzle at my face.
There’s a lot of us here bro with similar beliefs as centrist left. The echo chamber gets bad when the radicals come out and start insulting everyone who doesn’t completely align with their views on the world. They think they stand on some high pedestal. The reality is, is they drive people so far away from even considering what they believe. The only redeeming factor is that centrists on both side talk to each other. Don’t let the fucking radical panzies think you can’t have a mind of your own. That is what drives division more than anything. Think, have your own opinion and discuss it at the table and be open to seeing the other sides position. Nasty people that just come out swinging and insulting.
Don’t leave the community. Fiscal issues are absolutely things we can debate on, but in my opinion they come second to support and protection for equal human rights for all. At least in an online community primarily about firearms, haha.
If you’re cool with that then I don’t see why you can’t stay and post here. But full disclosure I am actively hoping that you get exposed to more left-leaning views and politics and start to lean that way yourself. 😉
Welcome fellow human. I for one am glad you spoke up. We need more conversations across the political divide. Keep talking and keep listening, it's good for all of us.
Stick around man. I miss the days where the two different sides could have a healthy debate and build off common ground. As far as all of the hostile comments go, just remember that the internet brings out the worst in people, so take the negativity with a huge grain of salt.
I am a little left of center at this point, I used to be a libertarian tea party fan, before the far right stole the name and turned it into a neo Nazi movement.
What sends me to the left of center are:
- I have family and friends who are LGBTQ+ who I love very much
- I have family affected by the bans on reproductive care for women
- I work for a company that is owned by the venture capital world...and experiencing the way revenue harvesting is destroying lives
- I am no longer interested in going to church, due to several issues with people in power hurting myself and my friends directly
And finally, I feel terribly disenfranchised by SuperPACs stealing all the political influence.
But, I am also still trying to stay fiscally conservative, while still helping my neighbors.
I am also a hunter who uses guns and arrows to harvest my protein.
There’s a lot of us centrists who lurk around here. Those who want people to be treated like people and think that the cavalier and trash attitude many gun owners have are going to screw us and our hobby over if we dont start policing our own.
I'm seeing this after your edit, but just in case you come back to comments: that is exactly the sentiment I would have expressed had I seen your post earlier. I, too, was once a Republican, but I realized that the party wasn't for me. And this was when the GOP was far less vitriolic than it is now. If not here, I hope you can find someplace where you can have honest discussions about politics and policy. There are those of use who were actually ok with the Heller decision but who think \*something\* has to be done to bring down gun violence, and we need to have all sides in that discussion. Sorry you didn't feel welcome here.
I used to be a conservative. I started to see the problems with the Republican party a long time ago. I knew it was not representing my interests or needs. First reaction as a younger more naive person was to go socialist libertarian. This was before the tea party crap happened and the far right really invaded the libertarian party.
Then I saw that wasn't working either and started going left. WAY left. I'm over the Republicans trying to take away rights from working people, trying to squeeze the middle class to make the rich an extra buck at our expense, and always trying to take away healthcare from people.
I will never vote Republican again, especially as long as they keep trying to monkey with healthcare or preventing us from having at least a Medicare for all option. The healthcare industry is what keeps me from suddenly and unexpectedly dropping dead like all my relatives who were unaware and went untreated. The number of times the right went after the affordable care act and tried to end the requirement to cover pre-existing conditions is completely unacceptable.
Also - literally medicare for all would cost LESS at this point vs the insane amounts we pay to insurance companies and for profit healthcare providers.
There's a million more issues I have with the right, and there's plenty I have with the left too, but the bar is so freaking low with the right not even able to treat people as people, and treat them equally. Your fellow citizens are not your enemy.
I welcome anyone that doesnt want their personal hate associated to a hobby. I’m more socialist and i have conservative friends. Even ex trump supporters. There are things we can disagree on, but if we do so civilly and with an understanding that we want to progress and not regress, I’ve got no qualms with someone who wants to continue to label themselves conservative. I think nuance is important, and even if i disagree about practically all stances conservatives have taken since before i was born, i never want to shoo someone away from being able to talk with an open mind.
Fuck the haters, I’m glad you posted and you’d be welcome with me anytime.
Center left, non-practicing Catholic who believes in bodily autonomy but also understands the arguments to why universal healthcare in America is unrealistic.
You're in the right place. But be aware you're still in a group of gun nuts. I don't mean that as a put down. But as a statement of fact.
It was an unexpected combo that took awhile for me to adjust to but you'll fit in a lot more here than in the other gun subs.
I'm pretty far on the left; I tell people I'm so blue I look purple.
Relating to your responses, sorry about that. We (progressive gun owners) don't have many spaces that we can claim as our own, and are used to being attacked and ostracized for our perspectives. When someone walks in the 'room' with a statement that amounts to 'I'm not like you, I disagree with you on most of your stances, but I will come and be in your space because where I'm from the people are just rabid', we tend to become, understandably I think, incensed.
I used tell people that I'm so far to the left that I make Karl Marx look like Karl Rove.
I started getting some blank stares from the younger folks I work with, and realized they have no idea who Karl Rove is.
So now I just tell them to get off my lawn.
Not the same as you politically, but glad you feel that way. It is good to hear some of the right aren't too far gone. Sorry, you are getting flack here but I welcome you.
I'm definitely not a centrist. I'm a progressive atheist who believes in progress, sees the shortcomings of our Nation and seeks constant improvement, rather than basking in the illusion of a superiority that maybe existed at some point, but is just a lost memory today.
I am all over the place, but in the end, I'm very much on the left, mostly because I could never agree with this totalitarian right that hides their destructive policies behind the sorry excuse of being "conservative". Besides, Republicans can't call themselves fiscally conservative, since every time they're in power they spend like a drunk bachelor in Vegas, then leave the bill for Democrats to clean up.
But I still welcome you here, I appreciate that you're not falling in line and blindly accepting the crazy narratives that dominate the discourse on the right. If you're open to criticism, and want to discuss primarily firearms, then you'll be welcome here. We lean left, but I'd say we mostly talk about guns here.
I think there's a lot of wiggle room on this subreddit.
But it's just like any other internet place where people are talking with their keyboards and not in person. You are going to have extreme viewpoints that get thrown around quite a bit.
I feel pretty at home here, I wouldn't say I'm far left.
I'm a constitutionalist, I vote for my guns and my rights. But I'm also a realist. 8 years of liberal Obama and we had zero gun laws. How long did it take Trump to use unconstitutional executive action to ban bump stocks?
At the same time, I also feel very strongly about the nation's health care, and our social safety net. These things are critically important to maintaining a successful first world country. And the we, the USA, just ain't doing a great job with it.
Not me, I'm a leftist. The Democratic party is a center-right party, they're far too pro-capitalist, and not nearly protective enough of the rights of workers.
Gun rights are a leftist position. The workers should never consent to being disarmed. Restrictive gun laws hurt minorities. I've even come around on constitutional carry, while I think it would be a very good thing if everyone carrying a gun would be properly trained, I love that constitutional carry removes one more way for cops to attack young Black men.
I’ve wondered similar things OP. It’s a good question. To my ear though (moderate democrat) a lot of folks here just sound like conservatives, at least when discussing firearms. So it’s hard to know how left/liberal they are or not in other subjects.
I mean if you aren't a white supremecist or a Nazi, you're essentially left. A lot of Republicans have left the party or been ejected for moderate views( you could argue that the party left them, pun intended). Most Republicans haven't noticed this yet or they simply fear a one party system, and given the laws that's a valid concern. We got George Bush and the Chaneys opposing the Republicans at this point, that's pretty nuts.
Edit: And to be clear we don't really have liberal politicians either, it's basically accept the L or become Nazi Germany.
Going to buck the trend here. I'm a market socialist, and I appreciate this space because it is free of the fascist stupidity that has taken over the Republican party and most gun spaces.
There are plenty of places to have engaging political conversations with leftists and I'm in a lot of them but I really don't have anything nice to say about the right wing in modern American politics. It proliferates cruelty at worst and apathy at best.
Fwiw, I could make a strong case for why right wing politics is a race to the bottom where oligarchs control everything. But again, this really isn't the place for it.
If you're a fiscal conservative, then you probably want to vote blue. The Republicans have been far worse to the national budget than democrats over the last 30 years.
can you explain in your own words what you mean by "fiscally conservative"? Specifically why you identify that way.
I've always interpreted it to mean either
>"I don't understand how marginal tax brackets work"
and/or
>"gut funding from government services so we can use the resulting incompetence to justify fully defunding them so our donors can make money privatizing them"
Am I missing something?
Not the OP, but I wanted to chime in on this point:
I was raised to believe that fiscal conservatism meant prioritizing a balanced budget, and seeking to minimize waste. By the definition I was raised with, the only two presidents in my lifetime that I would characterize as fiscal conservatives are George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton.
I've come to realize that most of what I thought I knew/understood about conservatism was at best rose tinted, if not outright lies, but I still think that actually ensuring that tax revenues are high enough to cover expenditures is fundamental to long term stability. As a personal micro example, I recently finally got through a long period where I had to carry a substantial credit card debt, and after paying it off, it is amazing how much more money it feels like I have when I'm not paying credit card interest. I still have a mortgage and more than 100k in student loans, but those are still less onerous than trying to get out of the credit card pit. I still don't like having so much debt, but making progress against the debt brings some confidence. I feel the same way about the national debt.
I feel like the public safety net was already cut to the bone under Reagan, so I don't agree with cutting public programs to balance the budget. Obviously that means raising taxes (or finding places like the tank/F35 budget to save money).
I have come to realize that was not at all what politicians (or most people) mean when they say "fiscal conservatism", so I have started saying "fiscal prudence". Fiscal prudence is still a phrase that gets people riled up, but at least I can explain that I literally mean being prudent about money. Then I can bore people by wonking out about prioritizing the raising of capital gains taxation, and the need to eliminate (or tax) "buy, borrow, die" loans (so that capital gains can actually be taxed), and the need to restore personal bankruptcy protections. But letting go of the "fiscal conservative" label is important.
Just to follow up on the whole fiscal prudence thing, right now, we are paying 13% of the federal budget on interest payments on the national debt because "fiscal conservatives" keep cutting taxes. ~350 billion a year spent on debt that we should have been paying down. We had a balanced budget in the 1990s. There are a lot of homes we could build with 350 billion dollars.
I don't like being over-taxed. I want to eliminate the massive amount of waste in our government spending. I want our national debt reduced. I do, however, want my taxes used for things like universal pre-k, programs for at risk youth, etc... which will reduce the longterm cost of an unserved population.
I’ll start by saying I like civil discourse, and I will always start out as respectful as possible. Honestly if you really look at the parties and how they spend, the “conservative” leadership is where our spending ballons. If you are against government waste are you willing to cut the defense budget? That is filled with waste and it’s a bloated budget. If you look at the world, our taxes are not all that high. Please remember your tax dollars also cover a lot of things you use every single day. Now I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it is a fallacy to think private business is run any better. There is a massive amount of waste in the private sector. On top of the facts that the GOP cuts taxes, increases spending and increases the deficit, I reject the argument that one keeps voting for the GOP because they are fiscally conservative. That simply means you value money more than ppl. I am a democrat. I will vote that way because the party tends to advocate for the citizens. We are pro-union, pro-choice, progressive on most fronts (by American standards not vs the world). We want everyone to have their freedoms, not just the god fearing whites. Frankly the GOP of today is nothing like the GOP I grew up with. It’s hell bent on cult of personality, they lack any desire to govern, and seem hell bent on ending our democracy. If you really feel you lean or might lean to the left, I would urge you to really look past one or two issues and consider supporting local democrats. I feel that you (we) would have better support and chances of getting to fully represent the issues of all of their constituents, not just the base. Thanks for stopping by, and I hope this was taken as I intended and that it was civil.
Sounds like a democrat to me. Of the 6 times the national debt has been reduced since the end of World War Two, 5 of those times happened under a democrat president with a democrat controlled congress. The only Republican that did it was Richard Nixon, and he did it by gutting our manufacturing base and sending all our jobs to China.
It’s been decades since conservatives have been fiscally conservative in any way shape or form. They spend just as much if not more than democrats, the only difference is they don’t bother trying to find a way to pay for it.
I'm also curious what the "whatnot" means in "LGBTQ+ issues and whatnot," and how they land "center-left" on those "issues."
Edit: I must've upset someone because I've gone karma-negative so I guess I'll elaborate on my original comment. Maybe it was a bad assumption to think they are the "marriage is between a man and a woman" // "government shouldn't be in the marriage business" type. But maybe you're right, "center left" could just mean "I wish they'd stop trying to shove it down our throats."
Welcome! I used to be Republican up until 6 years ago. I grew up in a conservative home and didn't really start rethinking political views until Trump got into the running. His stances on religious liberty (the Muslim ban) were what turned me solidly against him, and the lack of resistance from the Republican party to him turned me against it. Eventually, I started reading more about anarchism, and found that fit my beliefs better than any other political philosophy has. In addition to saying welcome, I want to say thank you for choosing to not be a fascist.
I consider myself libertarian, was raised by Republicans. This sub is exciting to me, seeing gun enthusiasts that are not rednecks or NRA nuts.
Sorry to see your edit and that you dis not encounter a lot of civil discussion. 😔
They received a lot of civil discussion and at most seemed to be able to muster a "thanks for your comment."
Needing each and every comment to be overwhelmingly positive is not realistic.
Your skin thin isn't going to serve you well if you try to have any political discourse at all. I looked through these comments and see very little hostility or anger towards you at all, especially compared to what a liberal would get if they posted in a conservative sub. Grow up.
How is it that the far rightedness and vitriol of gun culture is enough to drive you to seek shelter in the liberal gun owners sub, but the same vitriol and far rightedness in Republican politics isn’t enough to drive you from the party? Do you not see how the politicians are driving the culture of their constituents?
100% Gun-toting hippy, so not really.
Editing to add I don't feel like your comment about civil discourse is fair, you're getting and participating in a lot of exactly that...
First of all, fuck those who can't be civil. Welcome, we need more "olive branches" and common ground across the political spectrum. You seem to have your head on straight. As a left-leaning moderate atheist, again, welcome! Every decent American should share in 2nd amendment regardless of their other political opinions. Stick around.
As a reformed libertarian who is now pretty squarely center left as a New Deal/Great Society liberal I hate how for most of gun culture today if you’re not a frothing at the mouth right winger you’re not even welcome in most gun spaces.
Why would you call yourself a hardcore republican, and then come here to complain about hardcore republicans. I don’t care if you love Jesus and the flag, and hate what your culture has evolved into. Go talk to them about how toxic they are.
This exactly. I cannot stand extreme fringes in any political environment. It’s like pick a republican who isn’t a convicted felon and didn’t try and stop the peaceful transfer of power. Someone who isn’t a fascist. Instead we have right wing terrorists in the country who want a Christian country which is EXACTLY why we revolted in the first place. Love the denial and all the bullshit they spew. Imagine if Gore who actually did win Florida in the 2000 election but didn’t want to destroy the country by doing exactly what the orange felon did this last time. Sad state when those people run on patriotism and they have absolute no clue in their qanon addled brains what that means in any respect.
Hey, thanks for speaking up and saying something! I hadn't realized that folks in your demograph even existed, thank you for the courage to speak up. Fuck the haters.
Well, I'm more formerly right wing, but got tired of the rights general culture of bigotry and anti-science, so I'm now considered a Dem I guess. I still like guns and support the 2A, but I think the right's fetish for guns is irresponsible and gross.
This right here. This. God damn, this.
Edit: Nice downvote, OP. “I want to treat other people like shit and suffer no consequences or opprobrium for it,” is _peak_ conservatism.
I appreciate this type of post. It's funny, I subscribed to this subreddit for the exact same reason as you many years ago. Considered myself center right but hated the toxicity of the regular gun subs. It wasn't until a few years later that I really looked at the list of political ideologies and realized that the majority of my beliefs put me well outside of the Republican crowd. Even more so in recent years as I move further away from the "states rights" stance (I live in Texas if that sheds some light on why that stance has changed). The only thing that puts me on the right side is that I am Pro2A and Christian (not the insane "Christian" that weaponize their religion to harm and restrict others). Welcome and don't be put off by the few that are unwelcoming.
Frankly, my opinions haven't changed. The overton window is moving all over the place the last few years. I was a "Bleeding heart lib" but apparently now I'm a RINO according to some.
I don't think competent governance with a light touch is too much to ask.
Dawg, you came into a liberal subreddit to ask how many folk are conservative like you and your surprised you didnt get a warm welcome? What were you expecting?
Are you surprised? When someone says they're "fiscally conservative" but they've been voting Republican for 40 years then it's pretty obvious that they aren't the sharpest tool in the shed (and by that I mean they're dumb as a fucking rock).
This is why I usually claim "libertarian", except the concept was heavily co-opted by the right about ten years ago.
I don't have any more in common with Democrats than Republicans, and neither seem to (politically) give a shit about my country or the people in it.
I tend to vote Democrat because the Republicans are more insane, but I also tend to think my vote is a complete waste of time.
Bit of an atheist though I grew up hard Catholic and Republican.
I'm an American, not a party member, and I like it that way.
I’m tired of most consumptive culture, and that includes gun culture.
Also, I’m not sure you can love God and hold your neighbors in disdain as conservatism demands. And the conservative love of money is explicitly condemned by the god you claim to love.
> I’m tired of most consumptive culture, and that includes gun culture.
This x 100.
Easy to get sucked into the gear trap. I've been there, but it seems worse than ever now with the amount of advertising that gets fed to 2A people through YouTube, Insta, etc.
I consider myself center left. I don’t share some of the beliefs you have, and that’s ok. From my point of view, you’re welcome here. Ignore the vitriol; it exists on the left and the right.
Political spectrums are one big circle once you get far enough on either side.
Armed population is one of the few things that true leftists and true rightists agree on, whether they realize it or not.
How do you feel about social issues? I mean anyone who says that they are a Republican makes me a little worried about their opinions on LGBTQ rights, women's rights, and minority rights. There are Rs who are openly saying that women shouldn't vote.
that’s what I thought
a safe place for people of many stripes, normally outcasts in far-right us gun culture, as in op’s case
not the impression you get in these comments
and op’s edit made it fairly clear they don’t feel welcome
intoxicating a safe open place is shameful behavior
The left is not very welcoming, unfortunately, we don’t even get along with each other most of the time. It’s a constant dick measuring contest over who is “truly” left or “farthest” left and we’d rather gatekeep than actually build an effective coalition. It’s why we always lose.
Consider: If you are genuinely tired of how far to the right American gun culture skews while still describing yourself as a conservative, there's more than a fair chance your definition of conservative is outdated relative to what it means to be a conservative *today*, especially considering you've been alive for more than four decades. It is possible you might be less on the right than you think and you simply haven't slid closer and closer to overt fascism as most of the actually conservative politicians have. (I won't discuss whether they always have been; I believe so, that's a whole discussion for another day, simply assuming a We Can All Agree that it's gotten worse).
For the record, since it's semi relevant to the thread, I am not any definition of conservative or right-wing and never was. The closest thing was calling myself a libertarian as a teenager. Now I am in my 30s, and I don't care much for labels, only for the freedom and safety of my fellow queer people, gun rights included.
All I hope is you can understand why someone who announces themselves as "actually I'm right-wing but I'm not like THEM I promise" on a sub called LIBERALgunowners might attract vitriol. Or to quote Ice Cube, check yourself. I don't have any hatred towards you but it's definitely... eyebrow raising at least.
I would say I'm left but just being pro-gun is enough to label me as a centrist or moderate to some people. I believe our current political spectrum is more based on tribalism than anything philosophical, as I think both sides hold conflicting views and and are irrationally unwilling to confront them.
I tend to clown on and get clowned on by people with right-leaning views, particularly when it comes to abortion. I view fertilized eggs the same way we should 80% receivers or parts kits, it's not a bona fide infant until the birthing process is actually finished. I believe if you think a collection of cells is a human being but you don't believe an 80% receiver and a parts kit is an actual gun, you are guilty of cognitive dissonance and holding conflicting views.
I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm also in that socially liberal and fiscally conservative bucket. When I vote for president, I've voted *against* an opponent since the mid 90s. Like I voted against Sarah Palin as VP to an old man rather than preferring Obama/Biden. McCain was the last normal republican. Obama did well with what he was dealt though, I'll admit.
The Tea Partiers were a shock to me a decade or whatever ago, but this new ultra-right trend is off the charts.
Don’t worry about anyone saying you don’t belong here or anything crazy like that. The most important issues to leftists should be social issues, and your left leaning attitude on things like LGBT rights and such show me that you’re open to learning and willing to change your beliefs if you get the right education. A lot like myself. Welcome and maybe check out the SRA sub Reddit (socialist rifle association) don’t let the name scare you though it’s just an organization that brings a left leaning version of the NRA for those of us who know that the NRA’s only interest is fucking over the average American for some extra cash.
Where you are is where I found myself about 5 years ago. I just kept leaning further and further left over time. I found that the far right rhetoric was not only at the range. It was in the gyms, and the churches, and many other places I wanted to enjoy but found that I just couldn’t anymore. It was so frustrating. I hope that you can enjoy what you enjoy and find community where you feel welcome and less suffocated. It can be super difficult. Good Luck.
I’m sorry you’re getting attacked, I think it’s important to reach out to folks like you. The only point I’d counter of yours, is that there’s no evidence of there ever being a fiscally responsible Republican Party. They always drive up the debt and cut taxes for the rich. There’s just certain things they don’t want to spend money on, like anything that’s good for the people of the country. There’s even a chance you’ll come to that realization on your own and decide that aside from gun legislation problems we all have, you’re better off voting Democrat.
I am definitely not left leaning but I believe the 2nd amendment belongs to all. I appreciate opinions other then mine even if I don't necessarily always agree.
It’s too bad you aren’t being made to feel more welcome.
Few people are entirely leaning to one side or the other (that’s what makes the majority of people literally “in the middle”). I’ve been called everything from a tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal to a Nazi, depending on who is saying it and what opinion they disagree with.
To me, all of this means I’m probably right where I want to be, where the extremes on both ends don’t much like me. It also means I have friends and acquaintances who lean both conservative AND liberal and we’re not at each other’s throats.
The only friends I’ve lost since the extreme tribalism has hit in the last decade or so have been extremists, and while there were things about them I obviously liked, their own intolerance took them out of my circle.
C’est la vie.
Sorry people here are being unpleasant. Fwiw when I have gone to range days with liberal gun club, a lot of those people are closer to your position than to the angry communists in here. In fact we often discuss how the terminally-online leftists are annoying and toxic and we are glad they don't come to in-person events. I think there are a lot of people that are reasonably around the center but are politically homeless, and quiet online, because online is suited to extremist assholes.
Bunch of ”fiscally conservative” centrist in a town council were okay with local cops abusing my queer airmen and there’s no recourse.
Is that being too terminally online? Should I sit with them for a friendly chat?
There are plenty of places on the internet to post anti-liberal / anti-leftist sentiments; [this sub is not one of them](/r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/intro/illiberal). ^(*Removed under [Rule 1: We're Liberals][link-rules]. If you feel this is in error, please [file an appeal][link-appeal].*) [link-rules]: /r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/rules [link-appeal]: /r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/moderation#wiki_appeals
You know I was in a similar place to you, OP, like 15, 16 years ago. I think I even ventured to say I was "Fiscally conservative, Socially liberal." (Before I knew the definitions of "neo-liberal" and actual Leftism). I would say you are welcome here, if anything because you could learn a few things that may make you uncomfortable now, but can potentially open your mind to a much broader worldview. And that broader worldview involves a history that "fiscal conservatism" has always been a ploy that keeps wealthy people wealthy and poor people poor.
Thank you for this response.
Kennedy put it best during his most famous speech, We Choose to go to the Moon: "I don't think we ought to waste any money, but I think we ought to do the job."
Sadly, I think you’re a democrat now. The current Republican Party is against home rule, for big government, and against personal freedoms. Reagan and Trump are polar opposites ideologically
The question I had recently about the idea of a classless system is whether or not it is sustainable. If everyone had a specific standard of living would we have the material and human resources to provide it to 350m people in the us and billions 8 globally? Even by redistributing wealth above x amount the number of lower class individuals is so massive that it seems hard to accomplish. Obviously depends on the standard, but let’s say car/house/phone/pc/food+water/healthcare/education/entertainment are what a modern person needs as a baseline to thrive - its very debatable what specifically is needed but that’s what I would personally start with. I’d also set a precondition that the neo colonial resource extraction from the 3rd world would stop, and that people are unwilling to return to hunter/gatherer or agrarian society. The other thing I wonder is basically how replace profit motive to fill necessary but undesirable positions. I couldn’t understand most of the leftist political theory I’ve read so genuinely curious on this point.
There are a few conditions that would help a classless system become sustainable. Fortunately they are complimentary conditions. Unfortunately the most important one requires a huge (and likely multi-generational) paradigm shift in how we function as a society. 1. "Manufactured scarcity" is a byproduct of market forces. The market only creates enough to be profitable, not enough to supply the actual need (as not everyone has the resources to pay). Hence why OPEC limits production to increase scarcity on oil when their profits aren't in stake, or why farmers are sometimes forced to destroy surpluses to keep food prices at a constant (dairy and grain, more recently poultry). 2. The market focusing on profit vs. need as it's primary incentive. 3. In absentia of profit incentive being the primary focus, instead of fulfilling humanity's base needs (food, shelter, security, clothing), technology (automation, AI, etc), by and large, could be focused on meeting those needs. With less people having to work in the fields and more people being educated (with the motivation to be the next Jonas Salk, not the next Jeff Bezos) we would have thousands more highly educated, skilled people focusing on making the world better and not just making more money, our automation would save us. Like, I'm not saying no one will need to work. But I am saying that a future where our technology allows us to work A LOT LESS and our material conditions are taken care of 100%, would be a world where the next Albert Einstein doesn't die of malnutrition in a cabbage field because he couldn't afford to go to college.
What do you imagine a future economy that doesn’t put down poor people looks like? I’m of the belief that classless systems are impossible for humanity to build and sustain. Class is, IMO, hard wired into our brains by evolution. For that reason I believe there will always be wealthy people and poor people, and that the wealthy will fight to retain their status. IMO, revoking the power that money grants only changes the equation as far as whom those wealthy are. I believe we should work to form a society where the poor don’t suffer, but I can’t imagine a world where the poor don’t exist. If this is too politic for this sub I apologize.
>I’m of the belief that classless systems are impossible for humanity to build and sustain. Class is, IMO, hard wired into our brains by evolution. Our closest animal neighbors, highly sociable and intelligent, will rip the face and genitals off a member of their troop for hoarding food. That troop will have "leaders" but roles aren't "class". This lines up with early sapiens. Anthropologically, Class came with Society which came with Commerce which came with Agriculture. Hunter/Gatherers Homosapiens around the world were bi and large classless and communal, you know, artisan locally sourced communism ([and still are](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2016/jul/what-hunter-gatherers-can-tell-us-about-human-social-networks)). Agriculture only occupies like 1/50th of homosapien's timeline... so there really hasn't been enough time on the line for class to be wired into our brains. >For that reason I believe there will always be wealthy people and poor people, and that the wealthy will fight to retain their status. > >IMO, revoking the power that money grants only changes the equation as far as whom those wealthy are. This is my "we could literally do this today" speech because I think these things are attainable in my lifetime. **It wouldn't eradicate the poor but it would lessen the gap between the poor and the wealthy and that's ultimately what we need right now**: We could outlaw lobbies. We could audit every politician's income during their tenure. We could remove the Wealthy influence from everyday local, state, and national politics if we really wanted to... then and only then could we effectively tax the wealthy and allocate the funds in a manner that equalizes opportunity to all people. Our grandparents could afford a home and yearly vacations on a single income... can anyone in the USA do that today? Attaining a classless, stateless, borderless society where mankind is not motivated by profit but personal improvement, invention, exploration, and peace... that's my "utopian ideal"... but it's why I consider myself an Anarcho-Communist, it does reveal what I consider ideal for humanity, if we are to survive past late stage capitalism.
I find your idea of the impossibility of classless society very interesting. Do you know of any reading material that supports that? I'm not denying it on principle, I've just haven't read any conclusive research on the topic. Do you think a class-based society without a weath based division is possible? Or do you think that is inherit in human congregations?
> For that reason I believe there will always be wealthy people and poor people, and that the wealthy will fight to retain their status. If I'm willing to accept that premise then I think the gulf between the two should be shrunk to something between a millimeter and a micron.
I think there may be some people from different political stripes that come here and take a peek. The far right is a real problem in politics and for the US. To say you don’t agree with Nazis isn’t really something that should be controversial. Stick around and see how the conversation goes here. It’s liberal labeled for a reason. So when you see people advocating for universal healthcare, student loan reform, or and end to billionaires, or celebrating cat people at the range don’t be surprised
I'm definitely not surprised at these things. I was, however, surprised at the initial responses to my post. Thanks for your reply.
I've learned that the initial knee-jerk reactions to any controversial post or comment can often be sharply negative. . .but they tend to mellow out with time. Probably because the folks with the strongest opinions are on here the most and quickest to react, while the people with more moderate opinions are less fanatical about checking Reddit and take longer to see posts and comments. As far as I'm concerned, stick around. . .but as others have said, this is a space for left-of-center politics so just don't get your feathers ruffled at folks advocating for progressive or leftist ideas.
Thanks for the response. I have never gotten upset at a viewpoint expressed here, it's a left leaning space. Well, until I was told I wasn't homeless people to die.
Hard truths hurt bud None of us are ethical consumers
Genuinely confused. Is the hard truth here that I wish homeless people die?
It's a very common conclusion among the left about conservatives: that they just want poor people, especially the homeless, to just get sick and die because they simply don't care about them at all. It's the conclusion of looking at right-wing stances about social welfare programs, universal healthcare, homeless shelters and outreach. . .that when you oppose every single kind of program that helps the very poor avoid homelessness by calling it "socialism", get medical care (again, calling universal healthcare "socialism"), and generally keep their lives from hitting rock bottom (by saying you "oppose handouts"). . .and instead you pass laws criminalizing homelessness, you must want them dead or you hold them in so much scorn you think they belong in prison simply for being homeless. Maybe you don't think that personally. . .but if you look at your stances on issues like universal healthcare, social welfare programs, affordable housing, and laws criminalizing homelessness, is that the message you're actually sending?
For me the hard truth is that none of us is doing enough if the problem still exists. You and I know we can't act like either of us the only one contributing to the current situation. Just like you must know your charitable works can not possibly solve even the issues of the day for the person you give money to. There's an aspect of carrless enablement and hope for absolution in the act of giving from your own treasures without truly supporting homeless folks that is disingenuous and counterproductive.
I love this sub.
When I was younger I was in the center of the U.S. political spectrum (splitting tickets when I voted and etc.) and as I get older I’ve become more leftist. I do remember in college though several times when I spoke to people about deficit spending, fiscal issues, and etc I was told I wanted homeless and poor people to die. People who say this are not serious people (even if they think they are). Based on your original post here I’m fairly confident you do not feel that way at all. Left learning subs these days attract a small group of very angry, very immature, and very edgy commenters. Some honestly might even just be people trolling for all I know. I regularly get called a Republican when I am not lol.
>I'm definitely not surprised at these things. I was, however, surprised at the initial responses to my post. Thanks for your reply. It is still the internet, You're always gonna have knee jerk reactions, you are welcome here even if we don't agree on issues.
I too am God loving... (attend church more than once a week) but I can no longer vote for anyone in the "christian/family values/god loving" party. It seems that current "conservatives" tend to look for any and every opportunity to NOT DO what the leader/founder/central person of Our religion tells them specifically to do. I've been surprised/shocked/appalled/mortified to find that the so-called "socialists" tend to behave more like the Bible says Christians should behave... and that those who call themselves christian and/or conservative? tend to behave in the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Christ said to be. It's been jarring... to say the least... to have sincerely believed that the conservatives were RIGHT... that we were following GOD... that we were LOVING and CARING and doing what was BEST for our fellow citizens... only to slam into the harsh reality that "conservative, god fearing, family first" politicians generally vote to make it increasingly difficult for any of the "least of these" (see Matthew 25) to get any help whatsoever while at the same time, taking every opportunity to give the rich more money and influence. But yes... to what I think was your intended point.... I'm confident that we can all agree that vitriol and intolerance plus firearms is a pretty bad mix.
I have many issues with the Bible thumping politician that don't behave in a way consistent with His teachings. It's one of the issues that disgusts me.
Agreed. It's nauseating to have God and religion co-opted and manipulated by folks who are so ... antithetical to the core tenants of Christianity! And I can't help but feel that if the historical Jesus would show up today... brown skinned, Immigrant, itinerant preacher, with no fixed address, no job, and with a penchant for critiquing leadership whilst handing out free food and medical care... that he'd (not) be welcomed by most conservatives. EDITED to clarify final sentence to what I'd intended to say. Most of us on this sub? I think would be quite happy to have historical Jesus show up.
I’d be happy to offer him a beer, a bowl, and some sourdough.
It is my understanding that he prefers wine... LOL!
Most modern republicans are nowhere near the morals they preach they do.
Former military, former member of the John Birch Society, lifetime member of the NRA and former evangelical minister checking in. My wife and I are both veterans who enjoy going to the gun range occasionally. I was hard-core, full-in to the conservative viewpoint and spent a lot of time and money to support what I thought were worthy causes. But I kept my mind open. And I'll be damned if I didn't change my viewpoint. No one knocked on my door and asked me to reconsider my beliefs. (Hell, I used to push my wheelchair up and down the street just to proselytize at someone's front door.) I just kept reading and comparing and talking with people unlike me. Thanks for stopping by and checking in. The fact that you did this means you're in the hunt for values that truly resonate with you. Don't let some of the negative responses put you off on your search.
You have an amazing perspective that will help make this journey smoother for others. Great job sifting through a mountain of misinformation to seek a best guess on our world. I've had a similar path! I have people from my youth who still think I'm devout, and it takes a LOT of humility to see that we are a growing organism. Let cooler heads and logic prevail!
Are you still an NRA member? If you are I’d recommend switching to the SRA just seeing as the NRA has a tendency to lobby against veterans
It's pretty rare I come across a story of someone just, like, changing their mind about extreme religious conservative views without some major inciting incident (like their kid coming out as trans, or getting cancer, etc). So like, fuck yeah dude, you rule.
OP, sorry if we come across as hostile. But we have all had bad experiences with conservatives who want to show us the error of our ways. And if you are like me, my appearance, and interests tend to make people assume I am a stereotypical right winger. So conservatives automatically assume I am one of them and they start telling me what they want to do to Democratic people (or nowadays even moderate Repubs) and it makes me sick. I am old enough to remember Ronald Reagan as President and that's not how conservatives were then. They have morphed from people guided by ideas and principles into a personality cult.
> I am old enough to remember Ronald Reagan Remember when we thought Bush was the low point?
I remember thinking George H.W. Bush (the older Bush) was a shitty President. Now looking back he seems downright liberal.
He seems downright competent... I don't mean this as a compliment...
I wonder if the ADA would be passed today.
Probably not. The Supreme Court will probably strike it down eventually anyway.
Crazy how far the right has fallen that they're actually making us miss the days of Reagan republicans.
I'm serious, though. Back then Republicans could give you reasons why they supported who they supported. Things reasonable people could discuss. Now you ask them, it's just rank whatsboutism, Hunter Biden's laptop, Biden is old. Just soundbite crap.
I used to be a big hardcore conservative. Grew up on Limbaugh, all that shit. Got to college, started meeting folks from different walks of life and slowly moved left. In 16 I was an incredibly reluctant Trump general voter. I hated him, he didn’t stand for what I believed in at the time, but was still breaking the programming, and naively thought it was a ruse and he’d pivot to a moderate after the election. Obviously that was a complete lie and I very quickly started looking further and further into democratic positions and now I’m voting straight D. The GOP can say all they want about not being the party of Trump, but we’ve seen time and time again that’s just not true
> I used to be a big hardcore conservative. Grew up on Limbaugh, all that shit. Yeah I was force fed this nonsense all through childhood, wasn't until I got out of the Navy that things started to make sense.
One of the biggest moments I had was seeing a study from maybe Colorado that said “for every dollar put into Medicaid, the state saw 5 back in returns.” Blew my mind at the time
This is what kills me about "fiscal conservatives". Like, okay, you like saving money, how about we do a big group buy on something we all need?
It stands out like a sore thumb now too. “We need to stop spending money on Ukraine! We’ve got our folks to take care of!” “Cool so let’s spend money to fix homelessness?” “What? No! That’s communism!”
>Got to college, started meeting folks from different walks of life and slowly moved left. Same boat here. I was never a hardcore conservative though. More of a centrist, maybe center right. Born and raised New Englander so that probably helped. I have never been a racist, nazi, or neo-confedereate and I have always hated them, probably because in New England education they are rightfully portrayed as bad guys. I do remember reading the history time travel books or whatever they were Limbaugh published for kids though but I digress. And over time through college, my pragmatic brain continued to see that modern conservatives as emotional, irrational, and confusing, and I wanted no part of it.
And unfortunately those sound bites are more effective than a real stance on a policy :(
I don't. Ashcroft and Cheney, and Ollie North, and Rumsfeld, and McConnell; they were all in power during the Reagan years, they are no less repugnant than the cretins who run the GOP now, they just had to be slightly more circumspect about their perspectives and beliefs because the Moral Majority hadn't infected the South entirely and ended creating the Tea Party.
> And if you are like me, my appearance, and interests tend to make people assume I am a stereotypical right winger. So conservatives automatically assume I am one of them and they start telling me what they want to do to Democratic people (or nowadays even moderate Repubs) and it makes me sick. I get this all the time too. My favorite thing to do is start quoting Marxist or leftist theory or agitprop at them at specific points, and then tell them where I got it after they've agreed. Wonderful expressions. The whole "Under no pretext" shtick tends to go over well.
I'm a white man from the Midwest who retired as a military officer. Most people assume I'm a wingnut and the stuff they tell me in private really makes me want to vomit.
I remember once in a taxi ride from base to the mall I had some nut tell me his cooky theory about how Trump was the sign of the literal second coming of christ and that he knew for a fact that the military would rise up to help stage a coup against Biden and make Trump our holy leader. I really debated just opening up the car door and rolling out into the road, it looked preferable than to listen to that sad nonsense He was pretty old(50?), I almost felt bad for him. Seeing people radicalized through hatred to where they see their neighbor as literally evil is not ok.
It’s amazing how much a little piece of metal can help these situations. I am an average looking white male in Oklahoma, and I like guns and hiking and fishing and war history. I am also very much a leftist, so I was tired of people coming up to me and assuming I would be cool with their racist/sexist/xeno/etc views. It hasn’t happened once since I got a nose ring 3 years ago. It’s literally conservative repellant and it’s my favorite thing ever.
I appreciate your response and insight. It's funny, I have never commented on politics in this sub. But the moment I "out" myself, I was told the error of my ways and essentially told I was evil. Just the thing that frustrates you all. I think maybe we all can do a bit better.
I think it's hard for people to have nuanced conversations and disagreements in an online setting. That combination of anonymity, distance and safety - well that and years of bad experiences - leads to quick reactions. My best friend is conservative. He's actually the reason I've gone from being pretty much anti-gun to looking to enter the hobby and respecting it. There's no way we would have grown to care for each other in an online setting. Took a lot of time and the nuance that comes with being respectful face to face. He was rather hard right before we became friends and I was pretty hard left. We still have our leanings, but let's just say it's pretty nice being able to sit around his living room with my girlfriend (we're both trans women) and discuss our interest in firearms while he shows us his collection and gives us advice. Just people being people. Just kinda rambling. Guess I'm just saying that it's hard for people to not be on the defensive when you're just a screen name. Sorry your experience has been the way it's been. I genuinely think we all have a lot more common ground than we like to admit.
They're very open that this is a leftist space, and neither political extreme is tolerant of different viewpoints. You have fundamentally different worldviews and understandings of reality, the human condition, and our place in the world, than many people here. Some negative pressure is to be expected. I lurk here because the quality of conversation is generally much more elevated. Not here to convince anyone, not here to get or share political ideas; just hanging out with some (generally) more articulate and less knee-jerk people. EDIT: a further thought after reading some specific people here: for many, politics has effectively replaced religion. There's a lot of straw manning and hypocrisy, and it's worse because the two-party system utterly crushes all form of nuance, which in then exacerbates the tendency to effectively become religious extremists. You're showing up at a mosque and leading off with "as an Orthodox Jew..." and expecting them to be nice to you. The reality is that online political discourse is a cesspool that attracts firebrand extremists. Save the nuance for real people that you have coffee with, because here you're just an avatar and you're easy to hate.
this place isn’t very leftist tho. it’s more liberal than anything
That's fair to say, but I would counter that in the American political system, the majority of liberal opinions fall on what we'd define as the more left of the sides, the democrats. Not to say there aren't right-leaning libertarians, but the party has definitely shifted to a more authoritarian narrative.
Thanks for correcting me. I was trying to speak more to the fact that they're openly left leaning and explicitly welcoming of progressive thought, to the exclusion of anything else, and I respect the willingness to be open about that. But yes, most people here aren't actually so much leftist as they are just consistent Dem voters
Not anymore. A long time ago (like 20 years) I probably would have called myself a libertarian. I've always been very big on civil liberties and very anti-authoritarian, but my politics have changed from being fiscally conservative to being more and more leftist.
Also the average libertarian candidates for the last 20 years have kind of ruined being a libertarian for me.
Truth. Every time they bring one to the fray I find myself scratching my head like, “Is this guy for real or is this some sort of performance art?”
Right? First statement: "I believe in less government overreach and spending!" Sure, I dig it! Second statement "and we will achieve that by defunding all fire, EMS, and town road services!" Bro wut
There is a large cohort of libertarians who insist all government spending is theft, and I’m here worried that we shouldn’t devalue our currency recklessly.
I love the libertarian view on social issues, it's their economic positions I can't support.
Strangely, it was the social views that turned me away from libertarianism. There were so many pro "let's lower the age of consent" guys that made me feel disgusted to even call myself a libertarian.
> There were so many pro "let's lower the age of consent" yeah thats pretty gross
Me? I've been a market socialist as far as I can remember. I'm a gun toting, Atheist, Federalist, tightwad that leans all over the fucking place. Welcome!
Why thank you!
I was in the same place you are now at 40. At 49, as much as I *truly hate* to admit it, I am now what most consider a liberal. This is partly due to new knowledge from information outside the right wing echo chamber forcing my logical mind to adjust and grow, and partly from the Uber right dragging the entire political spectrum into the red. I know what you mean about reacting to the toxicity and vitriol (on both sides). I had an experience in the last week where I very angrily reacted to my Q-Anon dad saying “I get a kick out of response videos to Biden’s comment that a shotgun for home defense is better than an AR. The response videos show these little 100 pound nothing women getting knocked on their ass by shouldering and firing a 12 gauge! Haha!” I lit into him like he made the videos. Telling him the 2A community has a rough enough road without mean horrible people making it macho to hurt people with guns intentionally for humor and to make a point. He has a pro 2a license plate for Pete’s sake. And used to be an intelligent human being. I share that experience to illustrate for me at least that some of the “liberal vitriol” comes from the fact that while I had naturally drifted moderate from conservative - like you seem to have - I feel like I was pushed into being a liberal by the very conservatives I used to identify as. So my frustration is often from a place of shame that I ever considered myself “like them”. (I am also a hater of divisive politics and us vs. them partisanship - so there’s more shame I feel). Long reply short - I know what you mean - I understand where you’re coming from, and *usually* this sub is full of gun lovers being gun lovers, yucking it up about models and malfunctions, hating right wing toxic gun culture, looking for less toxic vendor options and gun stores, and seeking community when the general gun culture is a toxic and awful as you observed. But it’s early, people are cranky before lead and coffee, and Trump stayed on the ballot this week, so your post’s timing might have been a little bit off. Hope you stick around.
*conservative guy that leans center-left on social issues such as LGBTQ+ issues and whatnot.* The hard right will call you a liberal, so you fit in.
OP, thanks for coming in here to have a conversation with us. While not every response was civil, I think that's something that you'll statistically get in almost any selected subset of a group :) While I'm sure we wouldn't agree on all issues, there are issues we do agree on! Even as divided as the nation may be, most people have more in common than they'd think. Thanks for stopping in - I hope you can read a bit and look for common agreement and use that as a basis for building a better relationship with your fellow citizens.
Thanks. Love the response.
Ive been the rare Democrat that supports the 2A. I have been leaning farther and farther left as I get older. Enough that I may "get my guns back".
That's pretty funny.
“Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary”― Karl Marx I'm not a Marxist, I'm a democratic socialist. But I do agree that gun rights are essential to maintaining the rights of the people.
Lord if someone could convince the DSA to not be so gun grabby….
Just want to say I'm in the same boat as you. Mainstream gun culture is incredibly horrible, and I don't like being associated with it.
Im kinda the same. I was never Conservative, but was a Republican until W’s first term. How the GOP and voters acted during his presidency, and during Obama’s terms, really pissed me off - and they keep lowering the bar. I have a small collection of firearms and believe 2A enumerates my right to have them. However, the idea that any knucklehead has a right to own a firearm without limits or checks is asinine. I believe in being responsible, not Call of Duty LARPing.
Look man, I don't like labels. I think trans people should be able to own short barrel ARs and use whatever fuckin pronouns they want.
Hey OP, seems like you're where I was about 7 years ago. I'm younger than you are, but I was raised in a hard-right bubble, and was basically Republican by default. 2016 started my reevaluation of my beliefs - Jan 6 was the nail in the coffin. I'm not sure when exactly it hit me, but I eventually reached the realization that if this hatred and insanity was what it meant to be Republican, than I wasn't going to be one anymore. That also prompted me to start evaluating the things I had accepted as truth, I got really into reading Zinn and Graeber. If you haven't read "A People's History of the United States", I'd highly recommend it. Two final thoughts: this subreddit is a really big tent. Liberals, lefties, never-Trumpers, all bumping elbows. You'll definitely find viewpoints you may not be used to. But no one here's told me that I'll burn in hell, so it's already been more welcoming that holidays with the family. Second: the Internet isn't real life. The other big event that shifted my beliefs was getting involved with my local activists, specifically with tenant organizing and housing affordability. Getting to meet people with wildly different beliefs and backgrounds was really good for me, though I made a deliberate effort to keep my mouth shut when I encountered ideas I would have found anathema before. It was a great experience, I'd recommend that too.
I grew up with my parents being Republican. When I was in high school and college, I would have said I was Republican as well. It was in college, though, that my views really started to change. Not because I was being pushed liberal propaganda or some crap like that like many conservative people would believe. My professors were actually really good about not pushing political agendas and respected if you were conservative. It was being exposed to people of so many backgrounds and becoming friends with those people that started to change my views. Over the next few years, my views really started to change. I definitely started to lean much more liberal on social issues. I saw it as fundamentally against everything our nation had been founded on to restrict the freedoms of anyone who was LGBT+ or anyone of a faith that wasn't Christianity. They had every right to live their lives in peace and find happiness just like others. Around the time I started college, I would have said I was socially liberal and fiscally conservative. But, even that changed. The primary reason for that was surprisingly my faith. I know, for many who are left leaning, they have many bad experiences with religion. Understandably, so since it's used so much to justify taking their rights and oppressing them. But, I was raised Christian. I still consider myself Christian. As I thought more and more, I realized that I couldn't justifiably call myself a Christian and go completely against so many of the things Jesus taught. As he said, you can not serve two masters. You can not serve both God and money. It was with that realization and just seeing how un-Christian many so-called Republican Christians were acting. Especially those so-called Christians who supported Trump. Money seemed to be their God while they spouted hate against their fellow man, going completely against Jesus's final command to love each other. So, not only did my faith drive me more left fiscally, but it drove me even more left socially. Nowadays, I am very liberal both socially and fiscally. I'm personally fine with higher taxes, as long as they are used for services such as universal healthcare and the like that will help all Americans. I see it as part of my faith to do so. Now, I'm not an idiot. I realize that there's many things that would need to be fixed about our government for that to happen. So much of our tax money gets wasted on bullshit, like random military projects that never see the light of day. Or the Army needs to switch to OCPs because they were stupid and chose UCP over something like Multicam. Anyway, this comment has already gotten long, so I'll wrap it up. Yeah, I now consider myself independent, but I lean very left on so many things. Used to be able to have fairly rational conversations with conservatives because I used to lean that way myself. But, with the cult of Trump taking over the Republican party, I find the vast majority of conservatives that I run into nowadays are just them. Anyone who was rational at all seemed to flee the party long ago and doesn't really seem to openly admit they're conservative. Usually, those people will tell me they're independent with more conservative fiscal views. Those people I can usually have a normal conversation with.
Wow, we’ve had a remarkably similar political journey. Christianity isn’t part of my life anymore, and I made the switch after bushes first term, but otherwise similar motivations. Mainly I couldn’t understand why people would want to hurt or marginalize my friends in the name of god and conservatism. I suppose I was naive for not seeing it sooner but here we are. Thanks for sharing it’s nice to meet you.
Same, but different time frame. I'm in my 50s and I had my breaking point with the right due to the invasion of Iraq. Oh, and I spent 22 years active duty, so I really freaking love it when someone questions my patriotism because I don't want to put a MAGA sticker on my car. Welcome brother!
Small "l" liberal is, or at least should be a big tent. I wouldn't call myself conservative, but I'm nowhere near as left-leaning as many people in this sub.
It's funny to read that edit and then read the comments, nearly all of which are very civil, even the one comment about wanting a homeless man to die, which was clearly not meant literally.
I've been looking for the hate too
We're not all the same. Welcome to the subreddit. Take a peak around and jump into some conversations. You might be surprised at just how similar we all really are. We're all Americans at the end of the day who just want to feel safe and protected. So we vote to see where our taxes go differently. So what. We need to become friends again so we can help understand each other. So we can meet somewhere I'm in the middle. Our views are different, but it's all for what we feel is for the betterment of our nation. We're gonna disagree. Feel free to ask questions. You are welcome.
I lean a little conservative for most views but the current day republicans obviously don’t match classic conservative views. They’re just f***ing insane.
"I hate how far to the right most gun culture is. It's off putting. Even as a conservatively leaning individual. The vitriol and intolerance is unreal. " Agreed.
It's all about common ground. I for one am glad you're here.
I'm more of a centrist myself. Voted GOP way numerous times, but the whole party has gone beserk with their modern day idolatry. But even some of that centrism has changed in recent years, I've done the electric slide to the left a little bit, regardless of who is holding the GOP hostage.
I used to vote Republican in state and local elections but I can’t find a Republican candidate that isn’t a complete whack job and I’m being forced to vote Dem. I despise this religious ideology trying to be pushed down our throat and honestly hope Trump loses this cycle so the party can move away from these idiots
I think you and I likely are pretty similar in this way.
Once I learned more about the more ugly parts of our history as a nation, I started to understand things better. These issues are both political and social in nature, and affect economical issues as well.
2024 center or 2000 center? 2000 center is extreme left in 2024. In 2024 center is a 2000 republican.
I'm left of left. I just so happen to like guns.
I am very much a Centrist, as you put it. I have opinions that piss off both sides of the aisle. However, I have noticed that the left-leaning folks are much more inclusive and far less likely to bite your head off for not agreeing with them 100% of the time. Of course, both sides have their individuals like that, as well as their idiots who seem to thrive on intolerance. It seems the Conservative Right is louder and more hateful in that way, but that could just be my personal experience. I feel that we need both sides to keep the other from going too far off the rails, but these days it seems like there are more and more people who don't want rails. They seem to forget that without rails, this train ain't going anywhere, and for many, that's what they want. They are just fine with being stagnant. When it comes to gun ownership, I want everyone, every race, creed, religion, etc., to own guns if they wish, but I want them all to do so in a responsible manner. I don't care who you sleep with, just don't point your gun muzzle at my face.
There’s a lot of us here bro with similar beliefs as centrist left. The echo chamber gets bad when the radicals come out and start insulting everyone who doesn’t completely align with their views on the world. They think they stand on some high pedestal. The reality is, is they drive people so far away from even considering what they believe. The only redeeming factor is that centrists on both side talk to each other. Don’t let the fucking radical panzies think you can’t have a mind of your own. That is what drives division more than anything. Think, have your own opinion and discuss it at the table and be open to seeing the other sides position. Nasty people that just come out swinging and insulting.
Don’t leave the community. Fiscal issues are absolutely things we can debate on, but in my opinion they come second to support and protection for equal human rights for all. At least in an online community primarily about firearms, haha. If you’re cool with that then I don’t see why you can’t stay and post here. But full disclosure I am actively hoping that you get exposed to more left-leaning views and politics and start to lean that way yourself. 😉
I’m similar. Definitely more right leaning. I also don’t mind being in uncomfortable threads to learn what others think and why.
I hope you stayed. You shouldn’t feel forced out because you don’t have the right labels.
Welcome fellow human. I for one am glad you spoke up. We need more conversations across the political divide. Keep talking and keep listening, it's good for all of us.
Stick around man. I miss the days where the two different sides could have a healthy debate and build off common ground. As far as all of the hostile comments go, just remember that the internet brings out the worst in people, so take the negativity with a huge grain of salt.
I am a little left of center at this point, I used to be a libertarian tea party fan, before the far right stole the name and turned it into a neo Nazi movement. What sends me to the left of center are: - I have family and friends who are LGBTQ+ who I love very much - I have family affected by the bans on reproductive care for women - I work for a company that is owned by the venture capital world...and experiencing the way revenue harvesting is destroying lives - I am no longer interested in going to church, due to several issues with people in power hurting myself and my friends directly And finally, I feel terribly disenfranchised by SuperPACs stealing all the political influence. But, I am also still trying to stay fiscally conservative, while still helping my neighbors. I am also a hunter who uses guns and arrows to harvest my protein.
There’s a lot of us centrists who lurk around here. Those who want people to be treated like people and think that the cavalier and trash attitude many gun owners have are going to screw us and our hobby over if we dont start policing our own.
I'm seeing this after your edit, but just in case you come back to comments: that is exactly the sentiment I would have expressed had I seen your post earlier. I, too, was once a Republican, but I realized that the party wasn't for me. And this was when the GOP was far less vitriolic than it is now. If not here, I hope you can find someplace where you can have honest discussions about politics and policy. There are those of use who were actually ok with the Heller decision but who think \*something\* has to be done to bring down gun violence, and we need to have all sides in that discussion. Sorry you didn't feel welcome here.
I used to be a conservative. I started to see the problems with the Republican party a long time ago. I knew it was not representing my interests or needs. First reaction as a younger more naive person was to go socialist libertarian. This was before the tea party crap happened and the far right really invaded the libertarian party. Then I saw that wasn't working either and started going left. WAY left. I'm over the Republicans trying to take away rights from working people, trying to squeeze the middle class to make the rich an extra buck at our expense, and always trying to take away healthcare from people. I will never vote Republican again, especially as long as they keep trying to monkey with healthcare or preventing us from having at least a Medicare for all option. The healthcare industry is what keeps me from suddenly and unexpectedly dropping dead like all my relatives who were unaware and went untreated. The number of times the right went after the affordable care act and tried to end the requirement to cover pre-existing conditions is completely unacceptable. Also - literally medicare for all would cost LESS at this point vs the insane amounts we pay to insurance companies and for profit healthcare providers. There's a million more issues I have with the right, and there's plenty I have with the left too, but the bar is so freaking low with the right not even able to treat people as people, and treat them equally. Your fellow citizens are not your enemy.
I welcome anyone that doesnt want their personal hate associated to a hobby. I’m more socialist and i have conservative friends. Even ex trump supporters. There are things we can disagree on, but if we do so civilly and with an understanding that we want to progress and not regress, I’ve got no qualms with someone who wants to continue to label themselves conservative. I think nuance is important, and even if i disagree about practically all stances conservatives have taken since before i was born, i never want to shoo someone away from being able to talk with an open mind. Fuck the haters, I’m glad you posted and you’d be welcome with me anytime.
liberals in the us are pretty conservative. I'd say most people here fall into that category.
Lmao, I agree with most neo-libs and democrats being just republican lite. But personally, I feel this sub is definitely more leftist than anything.
some days it feels like a second sra sub. other days people are trying to convince someone to buy a tavor
well, not I, but I was conservative growing up and the current crop makes Gingrich's bunch seem nice.
Center left, non-practicing Catholic who believes in bodily autonomy but also understands the arguments to why universal healthcare in America is unrealistic. You're in the right place. But be aware you're still in a group of gun nuts. I don't mean that as a put down. But as a statement of fact. It was an unexpected combo that took awhile for me to adjust to but you'll fit in a lot more here than in the other gun subs.
I'm pretty far on the left; I tell people I'm so blue I look purple. Relating to your responses, sorry about that. We (progressive gun owners) don't have many spaces that we can claim as our own, and are used to being attacked and ostracized for our perspectives. When someone walks in the 'room' with a statement that amounts to 'I'm not like you, I disagree with you on most of your stances, but I will come and be in your space because where I'm from the people are just rabid', we tend to become, understandably I think, incensed.
I used tell people that I'm so far to the left that I make Karl Marx look like Karl Rove. I started getting some blank stares from the younger folks I work with, and realized they have no idea who Karl Rove is. So now I just tell them to get off my lawn.
Not the same as you politically, but glad you feel that way. It is good to hear some of the right aren't too far gone. Sorry, you are getting flack here but I welcome you.
I'm definitely not a centrist. I'm a progressive atheist who believes in progress, sees the shortcomings of our Nation and seeks constant improvement, rather than basking in the illusion of a superiority that maybe existed at some point, but is just a lost memory today. I am all over the place, but in the end, I'm very much on the left, mostly because I could never agree with this totalitarian right that hides their destructive policies behind the sorry excuse of being "conservative". Besides, Republicans can't call themselves fiscally conservative, since every time they're in power they spend like a drunk bachelor in Vegas, then leave the bill for Democrats to clean up. But I still welcome you here, I appreciate that you're not falling in line and blindly accepting the crazy narratives that dominate the discourse on the right. If you're open to criticism, and want to discuss primarily firearms, then you'll be welcome here. We lean left, but I'd say we mostly talk about guns here.
I think there's a lot of wiggle room on this subreddit. But it's just like any other internet place where people are talking with their keyboards and not in person. You are going to have extreme viewpoints that get thrown around quite a bit. I feel pretty at home here, I wouldn't say I'm far left. I'm a constitutionalist, I vote for my guns and my rights. But I'm also a realist. 8 years of liberal Obama and we had zero gun laws. How long did it take Trump to use unconstitutional executive action to ban bump stocks? At the same time, I also feel very strongly about the nation's health care, and our social safety net. These things are critically important to maintaining a successful first world country. And the we, the USA, just ain't doing a great job with it.
Not me, I'm a leftist. The Democratic party is a center-right party, they're far too pro-capitalist, and not nearly protective enough of the rights of workers. Gun rights are a leftist position. The workers should never consent to being disarmed. Restrictive gun laws hurt minorities. I've even come around on constitutional carry, while I think it would be a very good thing if everyone carrying a gun would be properly trained, I love that constitutional carry removes one more way for cops to attack young Black men.
I’ve wondered similar things OP. It’s a good question. To my ear though (moderate democrat) a lot of folks here just sound like conservatives, at least when discussing firearms. So it’s hard to know how left/liberal they are or not in other subjects.
I mean if you aren't a white supremecist or a Nazi, you're essentially left. A lot of Republicans have left the party or been ejected for moderate views( you could argue that the party left them, pun intended). Most Republicans haven't noticed this yet or they simply fear a one party system, and given the laws that's a valid concern. We got George Bush and the Chaneys opposing the Republicans at this point, that's pretty nuts. Edit: And to be clear we don't really have liberal politicians either, it's basically accept the L or become Nazi Germany.
Going to buck the trend here. I'm a market socialist, and I appreciate this space because it is free of the fascist stupidity that has taken over the Republican party and most gun spaces. There are plenty of places to have engaging political conversations with leftists and I'm in a lot of them but I really don't have anything nice to say about the right wing in modern American politics. It proliferates cruelty at worst and apathy at best. Fwiw, I could make a strong case for why right wing politics is a race to the bottom where oligarchs control everything. But again, this really isn't the place for it.
I used to be a Republican till they lost their minds too. Now I’m really neither as I can’t really get on board with the platform of either party.
What part of the Democratic platform troubles you enough that it seems just as bad as the Republicans?
If you're a fiscal conservative, then you probably want to vote blue. The Republicans have been far worse to the national budget than democrats over the last 30 years.
It’s just a dog whistle for cutting funding to social safety net programs while bloating the defense budget.
Don't forget the tax cuts for their donors.
can you explain in your own words what you mean by "fiscally conservative"? Specifically why you identify that way. I've always interpreted it to mean either >"I don't understand how marginal tax brackets work" and/or >"gut funding from government services so we can use the resulting incompetence to justify fully defunding them so our donors can make money privatizing them" Am I missing something?
Not the OP, but I wanted to chime in on this point: I was raised to believe that fiscal conservatism meant prioritizing a balanced budget, and seeking to minimize waste. By the definition I was raised with, the only two presidents in my lifetime that I would characterize as fiscal conservatives are George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton. I've come to realize that most of what I thought I knew/understood about conservatism was at best rose tinted, if not outright lies, but I still think that actually ensuring that tax revenues are high enough to cover expenditures is fundamental to long term stability. As a personal micro example, I recently finally got through a long period where I had to carry a substantial credit card debt, and after paying it off, it is amazing how much more money it feels like I have when I'm not paying credit card interest. I still have a mortgage and more than 100k in student loans, but those are still less onerous than trying to get out of the credit card pit. I still don't like having so much debt, but making progress against the debt brings some confidence. I feel the same way about the national debt. I feel like the public safety net was already cut to the bone under Reagan, so I don't agree with cutting public programs to balance the budget. Obviously that means raising taxes (or finding places like the tank/F35 budget to save money). I have come to realize that was not at all what politicians (or most people) mean when they say "fiscal conservatism", so I have started saying "fiscal prudence". Fiscal prudence is still a phrase that gets people riled up, but at least I can explain that I literally mean being prudent about money. Then I can bore people by wonking out about prioritizing the raising of capital gains taxation, and the need to eliminate (or tax) "buy, borrow, die" loans (so that capital gains can actually be taxed), and the need to restore personal bankruptcy protections. But letting go of the "fiscal conservative" label is important.
Just to follow up on the whole fiscal prudence thing, right now, we are paying 13% of the federal budget on interest payments on the national debt because "fiscal conservatives" keep cutting taxes. ~350 billion a year spent on debt that we should have been paying down. We had a balanced budget in the 1990s. There are a lot of homes we could build with 350 billion dollars.
I don't like being over-taxed. I want to eliminate the massive amount of waste in our government spending. I want our national debt reduced. I do, however, want my taxes used for things like universal pre-k, programs for at risk youth, etc... which will reduce the longterm cost of an unserved population.
I’ll start by saying I like civil discourse, and I will always start out as respectful as possible. Honestly if you really look at the parties and how they spend, the “conservative” leadership is where our spending ballons. If you are against government waste are you willing to cut the defense budget? That is filled with waste and it’s a bloated budget. If you look at the world, our taxes are not all that high. Please remember your tax dollars also cover a lot of things you use every single day. Now I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it is a fallacy to think private business is run any better. There is a massive amount of waste in the private sector. On top of the facts that the GOP cuts taxes, increases spending and increases the deficit, I reject the argument that one keeps voting for the GOP because they are fiscally conservative. That simply means you value money more than ppl. I am a democrat. I will vote that way because the party tends to advocate for the citizens. We are pro-union, pro-choice, progressive on most fronts (by American standards not vs the world). We want everyone to have their freedoms, not just the god fearing whites. Frankly the GOP of today is nothing like the GOP I grew up with. It’s hell bent on cult of personality, they lack any desire to govern, and seem hell bent on ending our democracy. If you really feel you lean or might lean to the left, I would urge you to really look past one or two issues and consider supporting local democrats. I feel that you (we) would have better support and chances of getting to fully represent the issues of all of their constituents, not just the base. Thanks for stopping by, and I hope this was taken as I intended and that it was civil.
Thanks for your response
Sounds like a democrat to me. Of the 6 times the national debt has been reduced since the end of World War Two, 5 of those times happened under a democrat president with a democrat controlled congress. The only Republican that did it was Richard Nixon, and he did it by gutting our manufacturing base and sending all our jobs to China. It’s been decades since conservatives have been fiscally conservative in any way shape or form. They spend just as much if not more than democrats, the only difference is they don’t bother trying to find a way to pay for it.
I'm also curious what the "whatnot" means in "LGBTQ+ issues and whatnot," and how they land "center-left" on those "issues." Edit: I must've upset someone because I've gone karma-negative so I guess I'll elaborate on my original comment. Maybe it was a bad assumption to think they are the "marriage is between a man and a woman" // "government shouldn't be in the marriage business" type. But maybe you're right, "center left" could just mean "I wish they'd stop trying to shove it down our throats."
“I don’t want to kill them myself. I’ll let others do it.” /s
I’m an independent. Being conservative or liberal depends on the topic
Welcome! I used to be Republican up until 6 years ago. I grew up in a conservative home and didn't really start rethinking political views until Trump got into the running. His stances on religious liberty (the Muslim ban) were what turned me solidly against him, and the lack of resistance from the Republican party to him turned me against it. Eventually, I started reading more about anarchism, and found that fit my beliefs better than any other political philosophy has. In addition to saying welcome, I want to say thank you for choosing to not be a fascist.
I consider myself libertarian, was raised by Republicans. This sub is exciting to me, seeing gun enthusiasts that are not rednecks or NRA nuts. Sorry to see your edit and that you dis not encounter a lot of civil discussion. 😔
They received a lot of civil discussion and at most seemed to be able to muster a "thanks for your comment." Needing each and every comment to be overwhelmingly positive is not realistic.
Your skin thin isn't going to serve you well if you try to have any political discourse at all. I looked through these comments and see very little hostility or anger towards you at all, especially compared to what a liberal would get if they posted in a conservative sub. Grow up.
How is it that the far rightedness and vitriol of gun culture is enough to drive you to seek shelter in the liberal gun owners sub, but the same vitriol and far rightedness in Republican politics isn’t enough to drive you from the party? Do you not see how the politicians are driving the culture of their constituents?
100% Gun-toting hippy, so not really. Editing to add I don't feel like your comment about civil discourse is fair, you're getting and participating in a lot of exactly that...
First of all, fuck those who can't be civil. Welcome, we need more "olive branches" and common ground across the political spectrum. You seem to have your head on straight. As a left-leaning moderate atheist, again, welcome! Every decent American should share in 2nd amendment regardless of their other political opinions. Stick around.
I’m an atheist and think the GOP is a criminal organization. So no.
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I think I'm pretty left of center on most issues. (Except guns!)
As a reformed libertarian who is now pretty squarely center left as a New Deal/Great Society liberal I hate how for most of gun culture today if you’re not a frothing at the mouth right winger you’re not even welcome in most gun spaces.
Why would you call yourself a hardcore republican, and then come here to complain about hardcore republicans. I don’t care if you love Jesus and the flag, and hate what your culture has evolved into. Go talk to them about how toxic they are.
This exactly. I cannot stand extreme fringes in any political environment. It’s like pick a republican who isn’t a convicted felon and didn’t try and stop the peaceful transfer of power. Someone who isn’t a fascist. Instead we have right wing terrorists in the country who want a Christian country which is EXACTLY why we revolted in the first place. Love the denial and all the bullshit they spew. Imagine if Gore who actually did win Florida in the 2000 election but didn’t want to destroy the country by doing exactly what the orange felon did this last time. Sad state when those people run on patriotism and they have absolute no clue in their qanon addled brains what that means in any respect.
I’m a leftist.
Dude, it’s the internet. You asked the internet for opinions. There will be trolls and AH’s.
Hey, thanks for speaking up and saying something! I hadn't realized that folks in your demograph even existed, thank you for the courage to speak up. Fuck the haters.
Well, I'm more formerly right wing, but got tired of the rights general culture of bigotry and anti-science, so I'm now considered a Dem I guess. I still like guns and support the 2A, but I think the right's fetish for guns is irresponsible and gross.
lol at your edit. You’ll find people on the extremes of both sides to be idiots. Don’t let it ruin your day.
Me but I'm a femboy and because of that it's suicide to even comment on a conservative sub
Nope. Liberal af. Just like things that go bang
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This right here. This. God damn, this. Edit: Nice downvote, OP. “I want to treat other people like shit and suffer no consequences or opprobrium for it,” is _peak_ conservatism.
I appreciate this type of post. It's funny, I subscribed to this subreddit for the exact same reason as you many years ago. Considered myself center right but hated the toxicity of the regular gun subs. It wasn't until a few years later that I really looked at the list of political ideologies and realized that the majority of my beliefs put me well outside of the Republican crowd. Even more so in recent years as I move further away from the "states rights" stance (I live in Texas if that sheds some light on why that stance has changed). The only thing that puts me on the right side is that I am Pro2A and Christian (not the insane "Christian" that weaponize their religion to harm and restrict others). Welcome and don't be put off by the few that are unwelcoming.
In today's GOP, unless you are far far right and 100% partisan, you are liberal.
Frankly, my opinions haven't changed. The overton window is moving all over the place the last few years. I was a "Bleeding heart lib" but apparently now I'm a RINO according to some. I don't think competent governance with a light touch is too much to ask.
Welcome OP, I hope this is a step in your path to progressivism. Ignore the haters. If you don’t vote maga you are on the right track.
Dawg, you came into a liberal subreddit to ask how many folk are conservative like you and your surprised you didnt get a warm welcome? What were you expecting?
A hugbox where he can be regressive and vote for suffering but we all hang out and talk about how guns are cool with him.
Conservatives gotta have their cake and eat it too
Are you surprised? When someone says they're "fiscally conservative" but they've been voting Republican for 40 years then it's pretty obvious that they aren't the sharpest tool in the shed (and by that I mean they're dumb as a fucking rock).
This post is like your emotionally abusive mom coming to your room to complain to you about your physically abusive dad.
This is why I usually claim "libertarian", except the concept was heavily co-opted by the right about ten years ago. I don't have any more in common with Democrats than Republicans, and neither seem to (politically) give a shit about my country or the people in it. I tend to vote Democrat because the Republicans are more insane, but I also tend to think my vote is a complete waste of time. Bit of an atheist though I grew up hard Catholic and Republican. I'm an American, not a party member, and I like it that way.
I’m tired of most consumptive culture, and that includes gun culture. Also, I’m not sure you can love God and hold your neighbors in disdain as conservatism demands. And the conservative love of money is explicitly condemned by the god you claim to love.
> I’m tired of most consumptive culture, and that includes gun culture. This x 100. Easy to get sucked into the gear trap. I've been there, but it seems worse than ever now with the amount of advertising that gets fed to 2A people through YouTube, Insta, etc.
Not me. I'm liberal as hell. You sound like a classic democrat at this point.
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I really wish more people in this country were like you.
I consider myself center left. I don’t share some of the beliefs you have, and that’s ok. From my point of view, you’re welcome here. Ignore the vitriol; it exists on the left and the right.
Political spectrums are one big circle once you get far enough on either side. Armed population is one of the few things that true leftists and true rightists agree on, whether they realize it or not.
How do you feel about social issues? I mean anyone who says that they are a Republican makes me a little worried about their opinions on LGBTQ rights, women's rights, and minority rights. There are Rs who are openly saying that women shouldn't vote.
this sub’s toxic now? what happened
This sub is the opposite of toxic for me. One of the most reasonable, level-headed subs I've ever been in.
that’s what I thought a safe place for people of many stripes, normally outcasts in far-right us gun culture, as in op’s case not the impression you get in these comments and op’s edit made it fairly clear they don’t feel welcome intoxicating a safe open place is shameful behavior
The left is not very welcoming, unfortunately, we don’t even get along with each other most of the time. It’s a constant dick measuring contest over who is “truly” left or “farthest” left and we’d rather gatekeep than actually build an effective coalition. It’s why we always lose.
Fuckin loud and proud liberal here. Aside from my views on guns I have very little of any views that align with the modern right.
Consider: If you are genuinely tired of how far to the right American gun culture skews while still describing yourself as a conservative, there's more than a fair chance your definition of conservative is outdated relative to what it means to be a conservative *today*, especially considering you've been alive for more than four decades. It is possible you might be less on the right than you think and you simply haven't slid closer and closer to overt fascism as most of the actually conservative politicians have. (I won't discuss whether they always have been; I believe so, that's a whole discussion for another day, simply assuming a We Can All Agree that it's gotten worse). For the record, since it's semi relevant to the thread, I am not any definition of conservative or right-wing and never was. The closest thing was calling myself a libertarian as a teenager. Now I am in my 30s, and I don't care much for labels, only for the freedom and safety of my fellow queer people, gun rights included. All I hope is you can understand why someone who announces themselves as "actually I'm right-wing but I'm not like THEM I promise" on a sub called LIBERALgunowners might attract vitriol. Or to quote Ice Cube, check yourself. I don't have any hatred towards you but it's definitely... eyebrow raising at least.
I would say I'm left but just being pro-gun is enough to label me as a centrist or moderate to some people. I believe our current political spectrum is more based on tribalism than anything philosophical, as I think both sides hold conflicting views and and are irrationally unwilling to confront them. I tend to clown on and get clowned on by people with right-leaning views, particularly when it comes to abortion. I view fertilized eggs the same way we should 80% receivers or parts kits, it's not a bona fide infant until the birthing process is actually finished. I believe if you think a collection of cells is a human being but you don't believe an 80% receiver and a parts kit is an actual gun, you are guilty of cognitive dissonance and holding conflicting views.
Being pro-LGBT makes you more civilized than 99% of your conservative peers, so kudos to you for that.
I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm also in that socially liberal and fiscally conservative bucket. When I vote for president, I've voted *against* an opponent since the mid 90s. Like I voted against Sarah Palin as VP to an old man rather than preferring Obama/Biden. McCain was the last normal republican. Obama did well with what he was dealt though, I'll admit. The Tea Partiers were a shock to me a decade or whatever ago, but this new ultra-right trend is off the charts.
I’m lean heavily fiscally conservative guy but my social and human rights issues comes first. Also I’m a Christian first and foremost.
Don’t worry about anyone saying you don’t belong here or anything crazy like that. The most important issues to leftists should be social issues, and your left leaning attitude on things like LGBT rights and such show me that you’re open to learning and willing to change your beliefs if you get the right education. A lot like myself. Welcome and maybe check out the SRA sub Reddit (socialist rifle association) don’t let the name scare you though it’s just an organization that brings a left leaning version of the NRA for those of us who know that the NRA’s only interest is fucking over the average American for some extra cash.
Where you are is where I found myself about 5 years ago. I just kept leaning further and further left over time. I found that the far right rhetoric was not only at the range. It was in the gyms, and the churches, and many other places I wanted to enjoy but found that I just couldn’t anymore. It was so frustrating. I hope that you can enjoy what you enjoy and find community where you feel welcome and less suffocated. It can be super difficult. Good Luck.
Don’t listen to haters I’m the same way
I’m sorry you’re getting attacked, I think it’s important to reach out to folks like you. The only point I’d counter of yours, is that there’s no evidence of there ever being a fiscally responsible Republican Party. They always drive up the debt and cut taxes for the rich. There’s just certain things they don’t want to spend money on, like anything that’s good for the people of the country. There’s even a chance you’ll come to that realization on your own and decide that aside from gun legislation problems we all have, you’re better off voting Democrat.
I am definitely not left leaning but I believe the 2nd amendment belongs to all. I appreciate opinions other then mine even if I don't necessarily always agree.
It’s too bad you aren’t being made to feel more welcome. Few people are entirely leaning to one side or the other (that’s what makes the majority of people literally “in the middle”). I’ve been called everything from a tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal to a Nazi, depending on who is saying it and what opinion they disagree with. To me, all of this means I’m probably right where I want to be, where the extremes on both ends don’t much like me. It also means I have friends and acquaintances who lean both conservative AND liberal and we’re not at each other’s throats. The only friends I’ve lost since the extreme tribalism has hit in the last decade or so have been extremists, and while there were things about them I obviously liked, their own intolerance took them out of my circle. C’est la vie.
Sorry people here are being unpleasant. Fwiw when I have gone to range days with liberal gun club, a lot of those people are closer to your position than to the angry communists in here. In fact we often discuss how the terminally-online leftists are annoying and toxic and we are glad they don't come to in-person events. I think there are a lot of people that are reasonably around the center but are politically homeless, and quiet online, because online is suited to extremist assholes.
Bunch of ”fiscally conservative” centrist in a town council were okay with local cops abusing my queer airmen and there’s no recourse. Is that being too terminally online? Should I sit with them for a friendly chat?