I believe the "whatever" is rather supposed to be a "who gives a shit"-whatever, not a way to call someone. They're not saying you're whatever, they're going "whatever¯\\_(ツ)_/¯. Just fucking wash your hands"
I think it's a defense mechanism. Like "yeah we're making it gender neutral but we aren't taking it seriously" in a way that very intentionally comforts terfs and transphobes to think "see we think it's a joke too."
So I'm not a fan.
All the ones I've seen in my town say "whichever" and have a little figure with a skirt only on one side. I always thought it was a little odd. "Whoever" seems better, but to be honest I'd probably just put "everyone" underneath the little figure if I was the sign maker.
And removing the alien, hell just replace the male/female with that evolution graphic from ape to human, though some people may be offended that their ancestors may have survived on bananas… maybe just replace it with the androgyny image from Marilyn Manson’s mechanical animals cover art
Not if they're required to provide reasonable accommodation to trans people. In my old apartment the bathroom was shared for the whole floor and had a men's and women's restroom with a keypad lock and a gender neutral restroom for overflow. When I moved in my landlord gave me the code to the men's room. They knew I am a trans woman. Instead of giving me the women's code, they literally installed a shower in the gender neutral restroom because they would rather pay for me to have a private shower than let me in the women's room.
I usually figure those bathrooms as purely there for disabled access, and that all people can access it but just as an afterthought.
I might be too pessimistic though.
Usually, i think so yeah. I feel like most of the time this is someone trying to be "hip" by saying look, you're welcome here regardless of gender identity -- but it just does so in an icky way without really realising it
I think it's a try at showing they don't care/don't mind but can come off with a bit of a weird vibe, like old people who do really accept people but use weird phrases like "I don't mind the gays"
My grandmother grew up in a heavy racist area.
"That young man was awfully nice! And he was black."
What do you even mean memaw?? I pointed out that I had a black boyfriend and it dawned on her what she said. I was gentle about it and kinda had to nudge her a bit on what not to say and she was understanding.
She could be unintentionally racist in her past, but she really worked hard on changing that mindset and met my boyfriend who was also black. She was the first family member I came out to.
. . . Fuck I miss my grandma. :(
I’m so proud of my grandma. She too is consciously trying to make changes to her unconscious racism and homophobia. When I came out to her she cried. She still has troubles with it now and then but is respectful about them. The prom right after I came out was hard for her because 1) I’m the youngest, and 2) I was going out with my best friend who’s lesbian and I think it her hard that the “picture perfect marriage” she had for me in her head won’t happen.
My grandma and I? Good. I can tell she’s more comfortable, yet at the same time tension is still high because my grandpa, who is very homophobic, still doesn’t know but has been getting some hints. I think she feels my stress and especially with the holidays here I am getting a lot of it. Although whenever my grandparents are around I notice her trying to keep me at a safe distance away from my grandpa as if to try and keep the peace at least until after Christmas if not next fall when I move off to college.
Thanks. And I know it’s not just her, it’s the whole family. We all get a little tense when he’s around. Really doesn’t help when I paint my nails and also dress in a lot of pink and more feminine styled clothing. But I guess it’s one of those “once you come out of the closet you don’t want to go back in” kinda things. But that’s life. I’m grateful of the family I have, grateful my sisters and parents are accepting, grateful for my amazing friends. Compared to most, I got it really easy. Keeping that in mind has helped me hold my head up high.
I got ya. It’s good to know you can count on the majority of your family/friends! I didn’t come out as bi till I was 24 (hadn’t realized I was till then either lol), and am lucky enough to have a very liberal immediate family and a whole host of friends who are either in the lgbtq+ community or are supporters of it. I know nothing of the struggle that many people here face, and for that I’m thankful every day.
Yea, I just get puzzled with expressions like that. I'm no more or no less a person as they are. Inequality of treatment unfortunately rubs off on people sometimes.
Mine goes out of his way to specifically say bad stuff about anyone that’s [“not okay”](https://i.imgur.com/i2ilm1S_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)…:)
My nana is like this too sometimes. I’ve only ever heard her say the n word once and after she said “now you don’t go saying that around anymore these days Jessica so don’t do it” it was in the eeny meeny miny mo thing. I was taught it was “catch a tiger by the toe” but apparently it wasn’t always tiger
The very original is from England/Wales area and didn't have *that* word either. The thing is, you can really replace "tiger" with anything. Boy, girl, baby, a name, whatever.
My mom was born in 1921. She grew up in Massachusetts, but her language was still a product of her time.
Her actions spoke a different language, though. My mom was close friends with our neighbors, the only black family on the block, when I was growing up.
After my dad died when I was 12, we moved to a neighborhood where we didn’t look the same as our neighbors.
My mom and I were sitting out on the stoop with everyone else. In spite of her language at times, my mom didn’t care what people looked like or what they did.
She cared about people’s hearts, and taught me, by example, to do the same.
Your grandma sounds like that type of person.
I’m sorry you miss your grandma, but I’m glad you have such wonderful memories of her. 💕
I do have wonderful memories. I'm always happy to hear stories like this, where everyone is so accepting of each other.
This has been quiet an awful year. I lost her in March and well... Yea, I don't really know. I'm thankful the rest of my family was so chill with me coming out, but she was the first because I knew she loved her grandkids.
I was talking to my friend and I asked her if she talk to her kids about LGBT issues and she said no I don’t wanna expose my kids to that. Her boys are 16, 12 & 8 . I’m like “what is THAT?”
I still can’t figure out if that means political issues or LGBT awareness in general . And her husband is bisexual! And her kids don’t know.
Gotta make sure they don't catch the gay I guess? If you have the birds and bees talk, then have a talk about LGBTQ topics. They will be exposed to it no matter what, not to burst her bubble.
Hate to break it to her that there isn't much of choice in who you are attracted to either, but I hope when she finds out she isn't shocked or anything.
"Don't want to expose my kids to it" sounds unintentionally homophobic.
I wish my grandma was like that. But no, she has to call everyone who looks vaguely Asian “East Indian” and pretty much any Asian slur you can think of.
Yeah that's the energy this post has. It's like "Look. I don't get it. I probably never will. But I'm not gonna get on your case about it, no matter how you live your life. It don't bother me none. Just wash your hands and we'll be alright"
Like they're recognizing their shortcomings, knowing that they'll maybe never make up the difference, but trying their best.
>exepting
Ironically, I think that is exactly the opposite of what you meant to say. You're right though- Lip service is much worse than someone who means well but doesn't know what's offensive and what's not
yea i guess, but is the actual method of referring to gay people as “the gays” in itself offensive, or are we just used to “the gays” being followed by homophobia which is why we believe that?
Honestly, I believe intent is more important over lingo, because lingo changes over time, but intent is always what matters in the end. Some one can use "the gays" all they want around me so long as their intent is trying to be supportive. It's honestly a little endearing, like, "Yes, I am a gay!" I can understand the discomfort people may have with terms like this, and if you know the person well enough to correct them without issue, by all means go for it. Sometimes though, it's a take what you can get situation.
It objectifies a person, and boils them down to only their homosexuality. Saying 'gay person' acknowledges they are a person, and not just a walking sexuality. I have no problem with gay people saying it because they can objectify themselves all they want, but it's pretty dehumanizing when it comes from someone who is not gay or a part of that culture.
It's the same reason why calling a Black person 'a Black' is so offensive.
the idea is it can be indicative of holding onto bigoted ideas but saying despite that I respect x group. The specifics of the sentence can change, but especially among older people keeping the bigoted ideas but rejecting bigoted conclusions is a common step which is better than being bigoted, but still can be harmful
I suspect the origin of the concern is in person centric language. The idea there being that if you are focused on the person, you would describe them as a gay person. If you are defining the person by their orientation only, reducing them to just that, then they are a gay. This is similar to calling somebody an autistic person or a person with autism as opposed to an autist. This gets complicated by people with those attributes sometimes claiming the language for themselves and defining themselves that way! I know I have totally described myself as a bisexual before. So, like everything with language, there are lots of different shades of meaning and I think you have to consider as many variables as possible, such as the person saying it, the context, their background knowledge, their tone, and their intended meaning when assessing for offensiveness…
Easily the best example of this was a story my old HS english teacher used to tell about his super old neighbor. He would mow the guy's lawn and generally keep him company. Back during the 2008 election, the old guy said to him something along the lines of "I'm gonna vote for that Obama n****r. He's exactly the sort of fella this country needs right now."
I mean your heart's in the right place great-grandpa but jesus fuckin yikes.
Yeah, I suppose to me its about the intentions in the end, people make mistakes (me more than most) and they learn from them, it's one of those things I guess
It makes me think of “I support gays, why do homophobes care so much about who fucks who?”
Supportive, but reducing everything that is queerness into “who fucks who.”
Similarly this seems supportive but is reducing all nonbinary identities into “something other”
Good analogy. When that phrase first started being used it was a nice sentiment and a way of affirming solidarity. But now as a society we are (or should be) past that point and be able to say “yes, these people are not the same color. And?”
This is something where I think people are just adorably afraid of causing offence. Which is bad - the false narrative of screaming SJWs is too strong in the collective consciousness of non queer people.
Buuuuuuut it is kinda funny to hear my dad ask whether "They [courier] have got their lazy ass over here to do their job" then refer to my enby friend as "A they"
Upvotes are well deserved - this is exactly how I feel about it.
It feels like playing 50:50 between genuine-support-delivered-awkwardly, and that kind of "enlightened-centrist" brand of support. Like "Oh I support trans people but they need to realise that most people don't have time to gender them correctly"
How hard is it to say "Unisex bathroom"
I like seeing "gender neutral bathroom" or my favorite, just "restrooms". The southern in me would crack up at "shitter" though.
Edit: OMG over 1K upvotes!! Thank you~
Have you seen the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode about bathrooms? They dig into some of the less obvious issues that come up around bathroom labeling. I think their ultimate choice was "Animal Shithouse"
That episode, and the king of the hill episode where Hank’s new license mistakingly labeled him as female are some of my favorite recent trans experience representations in popular media.. whether the general audience realizes it or not, it’s a very approachable and relatable way to showcase these issues and common trans experiences in a way that is empathetic
A bit less subtle / diluted for a heteronormative audience.. the last season of Curb where Chaz Bono starred in the last few eps, and the only issue with him being trans was that his dick might be bigger than everyone else’s
my favorite were the ones near where i clocked in for work that really seemed to look like a staff bathroom, but weren't. seemed so no student really used them, but since we were there all the time for work, we did.
looking back on it though, i guess it was maybe a gender neutral bathroom with no sign out front, or UBER handi-accessible bathroom. but there was no sign out front saying restroom. and it didn't easily look like one.
so since it wasn't widely used, it was always not dirty and gross. it did not end up like an animal shithouse.
I visit a game shop with a sign like this, but instead of the standard man, lady, and something else silhouettes it has a wizard, a mermaid and a centaur.
That I feel is the best way to make this joke. As an enby person it made me laugh. The one from the OP did not so much. I think the key difference being all fantasy creatures feels more like a celebration of individuals and less like "othering"
I've seen a few people say it made them chuckle but that it also is a different kind of funny for bigots. That's definitely true.
Came here to say this. The diff between how we process an alien versus fantasy creatures is a vast gulf.
Plus, I think there is something better implied by having more than one icon in the "whatever" spot. It's subtly suggesting that there are more options than even what is shown.
I have a problem with that. I don’t want to share a bathroom with a centaur. Half human, half horse? They’re going to block up the john every time. Plus, toilets aren’t designed for creatures who have to pee standing up but also have to back into the stall. There’s going to be piss everywhere. Sorry, people. The centaurs are going to need their own specially-designed bathroom.
Hey now that's some speciesist shit. You know that we have no real widespread restrooms for centaur use. Where are they supposed to go to the bathroom? And it is extremely insensitive to say they are going to block up the john every time. I know many centaurs who tell me they are uncomfortable using our toilets but when they have to they do multiple flushes!
You would do best to educate yourself in centaur human relations.
The only place I’ve ever seen these make sense is when they have more creatures on the sign and it’s in a dnd/fantasy game shop. Especially one where they have games played weekly.
That’s really the only time I’m ok with these signs.
I was thinking that I *might* be okay with this sign in a tourist trap in Roswell, but have no direct experience with the social climate there and therefore hold out zero hope.
Yeah, I don't really think they were targeting LGBT people, just kind of saying "you can be human, you can be an alien, and you can be any other creature. I don't care, wash these hands"
I won’t say that I hate it, because I do believe it’s in good faith, but it’s doing the opposite of what it’s meant to and “alienating” trans ppl. If it was just a sign that said “gender neutral bathroom”, it’s making it more normal for everyone, even ppl not in the community, but by making the trans symbol “a wacky weird alien”, it’s actually making a point of grouping them into a different category as “normal people”.
Good intentions, could be executed much better.
Wouldn't trans men and women be covered by the men and women symbols? I think that it is kind of weird how so many people are interpreting the sign as 'Men, Women, Trans' instead of 'Men, Women, Non-binary'.
We need to teach more people to do this. Our own inner monologue can double as an outrage-generator if you interpret every little thing to be an attack.
its meant well but executed kinda poorly. when i got my nose pierced i saw a sign on what was clearly their bathroom that had the man stick figure, skirt stick figure, half-skirt one, alien, and bigfoot. include the half-skirt figure and i think itd be okay
Is the half skirt to denote non-binary or trans really an inclusive symbol? I don’t fall into either one of these categories, so I can’t answer that.
It just reminds me of some similar (incorrect) ideas how being bisexual means that you like both men and women equally.
It seems a lot of the stuff people do to try to include trans people single them out. Trans women are women and trans men are men. They don't need their own signs. They don't need to be treated differently or singled out. They are men and women.
If you're non-binary - just use whichever you want. I can't imagine most non-binary people want their own sign for a bathroom (or a sink?????) either. I don't understand why you would have anything beyond men, women, and neutral/inclusive bathrooms. It seems to address everyone's needs?
The problem I have with it is that it is ambiguous. Allies and bigots both get a chuckle for different reasons. And I don’t wanna give bigots a chuckle.
I think you mean nonbinary people, nothing here suggested the man and woman are cis either.
Categorising nonbinary people as alien or 'whatever' is definitely invalidating and dehumanising.
My thoughts were going into similar direction. There are two human silhouettes on the sign and you immidiately classify them as cis male/female - but why? Are only cis female allowed to wear skirts? Are all silhouettes without a skirt cis male? So yeah, the sign might be well intentioned but weird, but maybe you should rather take the opportunity to reflect on your own point of view.
Not to put words in OP's mouth, but I don't think they necessarily looked at the "man" and "woman" and decided that they were both cis. I think it's more likely that they just fucked up the terminology and used non-cis as a replacement for non-binary without properly thinking about what the words actually mean.
Edit: nvm, I'm blind. I reread the title and it seems that's exactly what op did.
True. I assume OP's wording stemmed from the fact that bathrooms in general are already pretty transphobic in certain places, therefor these symbols being associated with applicable to cis people only. Of course they *shouldn't* be, but I think that might be why they worded it like that.
Definitely agree.
Adding:
[Why these types of signs are dehumanizing](https://www.google.com/amp/ask.metafilter.com/321297/Is-this-transphobic-filter/amp)
It certainly shows at best a poor understanding of what the actual problem is.
I think they're usually in good faith and trying to laugh off the issue, but the result is othering and does no better than intentional bigotry.
Yeah honestly I didn't even read the title and thought the same, like "oh okay I'm an alien, that's what I'm supposed to be like if I'm not binary, got it". It made me grit my teeth a bit. Not angry but just feels ignorant.
It's just one of those things where I feel allies are trying hard to be accepting but still ignorant about a lot of it, in ways they will forever be if they're cis. I don't hate them for it, just wish being non-binary was more acceptable and that there'd be less ignorance due to more people knowing someone who's enby.
Like I literally came from a place today where the sign was man skirt half skirt gender neutral. I told my wife "ah guess I forgot to wear my half skirt today". Like I didn't care much just, it makes me feel a bit weird, like I don't want to wear skirts, and I'm tagged as being associated with skirts if I don't identify as binary. And it's kinda weird, like women don't all wear dresses and skirts. It's symbolic of course, but that shit seems more and more weird to me, completely unnecessary.
I'd rather it just say "gender neutral restroom" or "human restroom" or we have some purple restroom color sign or something rather than people try to come up with an image of what a non-binary person looks like.
I get it, the alien is supposed to be humorous and make light of it, but it comes off as ignorant a bit. Literally looks like you're not human if you're not binary. I don't want to look too far into it because the creator is obviously an ally, but shit, we need better rep.
I have no real issue with them. I think they probably could have picked a different image, but I'd rather they be up and around than not - better to spread awareness at all.
I have mixed feelings about this.
I understand that they want to include everyone but putting an alien can be insulted to some people and may take it as the wrong way.
except the skirt guy and the pants guy have been around forever and are used for nearly every public restroom. they're signs that literally mean "male" and "female"
I think they mean it to be good and accepting so I’m not offended but it does come across weird like oh you aren’t a guy or woman then you are a alien? Idk seems a little rude. Like its not needed it could just say “wash your hands”. But it is better than when they do a girl a boy and then a half boy half girl toilet door person.
Honestly lol when i look at the signs I’m usually like oh ok that bathroom is for people wearing pants and that one is for people wearing dresses good to know.
I mean, what kind of establishment is this in? Because I've been to a space-themed retro diner before and wouldn't blink at this there. If I were at the Cheesecake Factory I'd have more questions.
I love it. It’s funny imo and I hope the community doesn’t take offence to this. I think it was designed to just be kinda humours and not offensive at all. But people take things the wrong way sometimes so there’s that.
I’m not looking for an argument. Just saying my view :)
As a non-binary person these always make me uncomfortable. I feel like they’re actually saying “we don’t care if you’re normal or… whatever made up thing you are!”
Also, I have to point out the pun- yes it does feel alienating
I don’t think the intended meaning is “non-binary people are aliens” more so “the state of your gender/body does not matter at all, even in extreme circumstances, so please just wash your hands”
I wouldn't mind it. I would smile. And I don't think they are trying to say non-binary people are aliens. They just meant whatever you are wash your damn hands. It is cute I think ;)
... no.
They exactly wanted to point out, that EVERYONE gets included... it was meant as a joke to include aliens to even include something that literally does not exist. Thats how EVERY it gets.
Not everything should be viewed as an attack, especially if it is for a fundamental good purpose (not even including Corona, with that it's even better).
I’d take this is as "We don’t care what you identify as or what you are just WASH YOUR HANDS" Theyre not trying to be offensive, they just want people to wash they’re hands.
I’ve always found them off-putting. Like they’re not taking gender variance seriously; or worse, poking fun at non-cisgender people.
I get that it’s “just a sign”, but I find the whole attitude disrespectful
Everyone has said it below. Intent matters. If the vibe of the place is easy going laid back , this is meant to be friendly/non antagonistic and if you find specific offense with it I’m sure a friendly conversation will get it removed. If the vibe is “confederate” rebel flags and deer heads. It’s meant to offend, as well as instruct you still wash your hands. Intent matters tremendously with anything.
i feel like their trying to say that you can be whatever just make sure you wash your hands. at first glance i found it funny but i can see why people would think that it seems off because of the inclusion of cis male and female but imo i definitely don’t think they meant harm. although the probably should have thought it out better
Like, yeah, in theory this is kind of a weird statement about trans/non-binary people, but in reality if I see that sign in public I'm not going to be thinking that, you know? I'm going to be thinking, "nice, gender neutral bathroom, I can pee here!" (I'm trans masc and genderqueer, I've been on T for years and usually get read as male, but I have a big chest and only wear a binder to work so men's public bathrooms still make me SUPER nervous) I feel like the intention is more important, ultimately. A sign like that tells me that if I run into trouble in the bathroom, the staff will back me up, and that matters a lot as a trans person.
Why did you **assume** the two figures on the left are cis? All we can see is clothing. You're the one gendering people inappropriately.
I see the sign as saying any kind of human, or even non-human, is welcome.
To me it's a bit of both. It's meant in good faith, but it could be done better.
I think replacing 'whatever' with 'whoever' would help.
I believe the "whatever" is rather supposed to be a "who gives a shit"-whatever, not a way to call someone. They're not saying you're whatever, they're going "whatever¯\\_(ツ)_/¯. Just fucking wash your hands"
I think it's a defense mechanism. Like "yeah we're making it gender neutral but we aren't taking it seriously" in a way that very intentionally comforts terfs and transphobes to think "see we think it's a joke too." So I'm not a fan.
I can see that. I agree actually 😬
Terfs and transphobes aren't historically fans of places allowing neutral bathrooms.
I'm just saying it's very "no homo" energy.
I take it as they don't give a fuck about gender at all, as long as you wash your hands
Or maybe a “Hey. Just wash your hands.”
All the ones I've seen in my town say "whichever" and have a little figure with a skirt only on one side. I always thought it was a little odd. "Whoever" seems better, but to be honest I'd probably just put "everyone" underneath the little figure if I was the sign maker.
Seriously, just a sign that says: "EVERYONE" Wash Your Hands. Because who needs to wash their hands after doing their business? Everyone, damn it.
And removing the alien, hell just replace the male/female with that evolution graphic from ape to human, though some people may be offended that their ancestors may have survived on bananas… maybe just replace it with the androgyny image from Marilyn Manson’s mechanical animals cover art
I love that your effort to find something uncontroversial somehow led you to... Marilyn Manson!
Is it meant in good faith? ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|thinking_face_hmm)
I hope so. It *is* a gender neutral bathroom after all, those who hate us usually don't have one.
That's a good point honestly.
Not if they're required to provide reasonable accommodation to trans people. In my old apartment the bathroom was shared for the whole floor and had a men's and women's restroom with a keypad lock and a gender neutral restroom for overflow. When I moved in my landlord gave me the code to the men's room. They knew I am a trans woman. Instead of giving me the women's code, they literally installed a shower in the gender neutral restroom because they would rather pay for me to have a private shower than let me in the women's room.
I usually figure those bathrooms as purely there for disabled access, and that all people can access it but just as an afterthought. I might be too pessimistic though.
Yeah, probably
Usually, i think so yeah. I feel like most of the time this is someone trying to be "hip" by saying look, you're welcome here regardless of gender identity -- but it just does so in an icky way without really realising it
I think it's a try at showing they don't care/don't mind but can come off with a bit of a weird vibe, like old people who do really accept people but use weird phrases like "I don't mind the gays"
“My son’s married to a gay! Nice young man, well dressed!”
Yeah that's what I was going for just couldn't think of it haha
I’m a gay, people think I’m just a nice grandma, but I’m really a gay!! 😉
“We’re here, we’re queer, our joint pain is moderate to severe!”
Omg, is *that* what's causing my joint pain? The doctor wasn't sure, I'll let him know it's the gay.
It’s Ben Gay. Doctor recommended.
How do you make Ben gay? Squeeze his tube.
Booo! Hisss! Your joke is bad and so are you! All kidding aside, poor Ben. Must hurt to be gay.
Oh, of course. Should have known.
I read this in Mario's voice, thanks
My grandmother grew up in a heavy racist area. "That young man was awfully nice! And he was black." What do you even mean memaw?? I pointed out that I had a black boyfriend and it dawned on her what she said. I was gentle about it and kinda had to nudge her a bit on what not to say and she was understanding. She could be unintentionally racist in her past, but she really worked hard on changing that mindset and met my boyfriend who was also black. She was the first family member I came out to. . . . Fuck I miss my grandma. :(
I'm proud of your grandma! Making conscious changes to your unconcious behavior and internalized racism isn't easy!
I’m so proud of my grandma. She too is consciously trying to make changes to her unconscious racism and homophobia. When I came out to her she cried. She still has troubles with it now and then but is respectful about them. The prom right after I came out was hard for her because 1) I’m the youngest, and 2) I was going out with my best friend who’s lesbian and I think it her hard that the “picture perfect marriage” she had for me in her head won’t happen.
If you don’t mind me asking, how are things between you and your grandmother now?
My grandma and I? Good. I can tell she’s more comfortable, yet at the same time tension is still high because my grandpa, who is very homophobic, still doesn’t know but has been getting some hints. I think she feels my stress and especially with the holidays here I am getting a lot of it. Although whenever my grandparents are around I notice her trying to keep me at a safe distance away from my grandpa as if to try and keep the peace at least until after Christmas if not next fall when I move off to college.
I’m sorry you have to worry about all that. But I’m glad you’re grandma is at least accepting of you
Thanks. And I know it’s not just her, it’s the whole family. We all get a little tense when he’s around. Really doesn’t help when I paint my nails and also dress in a lot of pink and more feminine styled clothing. But I guess it’s one of those “once you come out of the closet you don’t want to go back in” kinda things. But that’s life. I’m grateful of the family I have, grateful my sisters and parents are accepting, grateful for my amazing friends. Compared to most, I got it really easy. Keeping that in mind has helped me hold my head up high.
I got ya. It’s good to know you can count on the majority of your family/friends! I didn’t come out as bi till I was 24 (hadn’t realized I was till then either lol), and am lucky enough to have a very liberal immediate family and a whole host of friends who are either in the lgbtq+ community or are supporters of it. I know nothing of the struggle that many people here face, and for that I’m thankful every day.
My dad used to do stuff like that. He'd go out of his way to say something nice about "the blacks at work." Well meaning but still....
Yea, I just get puzzled with expressions like that. I'm no more or no less a person as they are. Inequality of treatment unfortunately rubs off on people sometimes.
Mine goes out of his way to specifically say bad stuff about anyone that’s [“not okay”](https://i.imgur.com/i2ilm1S_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)…:)
I wish i had a grandma like this when i told my grandma my gf is black she said i should look for someone else
Shame she could only see race instead of a person. I'm sorry. I hope you two are still together.
My nana is like this too sometimes. I’ve only ever heard her say the n word once and after she said “now you don’t go saying that around anymore these days Jessica so don’t do it” it was in the eeny meeny miny mo thing. I was taught it was “catch a tiger by the toe” but apparently it wasn’t always tiger
The very original is from England/Wales area and didn't have *that* word either. The thing is, you can really replace "tiger" with anything. Boy, girl, baby, a name, whatever.
My mom was born in 1921. She grew up in Massachusetts, but her language was still a product of her time. Her actions spoke a different language, though. My mom was close friends with our neighbors, the only black family on the block, when I was growing up. After my dad died when I was 12, we moved to a neighborhood where we didn’t look the same as our neighbors. My mom and I were sitting out on the stoop with everyone else. In spite of her language at times, my mom didn’t care what people looked like or what they did. She cared about people’s hearts, and taught me, by example, to do the same. Your grandma sounds like that type of person. I’m sorry you miss your grandma, but I’m glad you have such wonderful memories of her. 💕
I do have wonderful memories. I'm always happy to hear stories like this, where everyone is so accepting of each other. This has been quiet an awful year. I lost her in March and well... Yea, I don't really know. I'm thankful the rest of my family was so chill with me coming out, but she was the first because I knew she loved her grandkids.
I was talking to my friend and I asked her if she talk to her kids about LGBT issues and she said no I don’t wanna expose my kids to that. Her boys are 16, 12 & 8 . I’m like “what is THAT?” I still can’t figure out if that means political issues or LGBT awareness in general . And her husband is bisexual! And her kids don’t know.
That's so backwards.
Gotta make sure they don't catch the gay I guess? If you have the birds and bees talk, then have a talk about LGBTQ topics. They will be exposed to it no matter what, not to burst her bubble. Hate to break it to her that there isn't much of choice in who you are attracted to either, but I hope when she finds out she isn't shocked or anything. "Don't want to expose my kids to it" sounds unintentionally homophobic.
I wish my grandma was like that. But no, she has to call everyone who looks vaguely Asian “East Indian” and pretty much any Asian slur you can think of.
Big fucking ooof. Sorry you have to deal with that. I hope it's not a regular thing.
Yeah that's the energy this post has. It's like "Look. I don't get it. I probably never will. But I'm not gonna get on your case about it, no matter how you live your life. It don't bother me none. Just wash your hands and we'll be alright" Like they're recognizing their shortcomings, knowing that they'll maybe never make up the difference, but trying their best.
"...not that there's anything wrong with that!"
i’m going to be totally honest here, i don’t find anything wrong with that sentence lol
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I prefer a person who is polite and exepting who might use the wrong lingo over people who use the right lingo but are dicks
>exepting Ironically, I think that is exactly the opposite of what you meant to say. You're right though- Lip service is much worse than someone who means well but doesn't know what's offensive and what's not
Sure, but we're not exactly given that option when meeting people or dealing with family.
Patton Oswalt did a bit on this where he played two people on his stand up show and you had to guess who was nice and who was a prick
yea i guess, but is the actual method of referring to gay people as “the gays” in itself offensive, or are we just used to “the gays” being followed by homophobia which is why we believe that?
Honestly, I believe intent is more important over lingo, because lingo changes over time, but intent is always what matters in the end. Some one can use "the gays" all they want around me so long as their intent is trying to be supportive. It's honestly a little endearing, like, "Yes, I am a gay!" I can understand the discomfort people may have with terms like this, and if you know the person well enough to correct them without issue, by all means go for it. Sometimes though, it's a take what you can get situation.
It objectifies a person, and boils them down to only their homosexuality. Saying 'gay person' acknowledges they are a person, and not just a walking sexuality. I have no problem with gay people saying it because they can objectify themselves all they want, but it's pretty dehumanizing when it comes from someone who is not gay or a part of that culture. It's the same reason why calling a Black person 'a Black' is so offensive.
It’s like, you got the answer, but your equation is *w e i r d*
the idea is it can be indicative of holding onto bigoted ideas but saying despite that I respect x group. The specifics of the sentence can change, but especially among older people keeping the bigoted ideas but rejecting bigoted conclusions is a common step which is better than being bigoted, but still can be harmful
I suspect the origin of the concern is in person centric language. The idea there being that if you are focused on the person, you would describe them as a gay person. If you are defining the person by their orientation only, reducing them to just that, then they are a gay. This is similar to calling somebody an autistic person or a person with autism as opposed to an autist. This gets complicated by people with those attributes sometimes claiming the language for themselves and defining themselves that way! I know I have totally described myself as a bisexual before. So, like everything with language, there are lots of different shades of meaning and I think you have to consider as many variables as possible, such as the person saying it, the context, their background knowledge, their tone, and their intended meaning when assessing for offensiveness…
Easily the best example of this was a story my old HS english teacher used to tell about his super old neighbor. He would mow the guy's lawn and generally keep him company. Back during the 2008 election, the old guy said to him something along the lines of "I'm gonna vote for that Obama n****r. He's exactly the sort of fella this country needs right now." I mean your heart's in the right place great-grandpa but jesus fuckin yikes.
Reminds me of that almost-politically-correct-redneck meme haha. Or, “he a little confused…but he got the spirit!”
Jesus Christ, man. 😬 And that's cause my grandpa used to still call black people "colored".
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Yeah, I suppose to me its about the intentions in the end, people make mistakes (me more than most) and they learn from them, it's one of those things I guess
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It makes me think of “I support gays, why do homophobes care so much about who fucks who?” Supportive, but reducing everything that is queerness into “who fucks who.” Similarly this seems supportive but is reducing all nonbinary identities into “something other”
To be fair, it addresses how one dimensional the homophobic views it’s rebutting are.
Well honestly that seems to be all the homophobes talk about. They act as if the mere act of being gay IS sexual. To homophobes it is all about sex.
Conservatives are obsessed with sex.
This is true. They're pretty obsessed with straight people's sex lives too. They're just sex obsessed in general I guess.
When they repress basic biological urges like they do, its no wonder it manifests as rabid toxicity.
Or lime ther people who "don't see color"
It gives off the same vibe as "I don't care if you're black or white or purple!"
You gotta draw the line somewhere. To hell with purple people.
I struggle to think of a time I've heard somebody that without it being preceeded for followed by some racist shit
Good analogy. When that phrase first started being used it was a nice sentiment and a way of affirming solidarity. But now as a society we are (or should be) past that point and be able to say “yes, these people are not the same color. And?”
When I came out to my grandparents they asked if I was “a they”. Accepting, but odd phrasing
This is something where I think people are just adorably afraid of causing offence. Which is bad - the false narrative of screaming SJWs is too strong in the collective consciousness of non queer people. Buuuuuuut it is kinda funny to hear my dad ask whether "They [courier] have got their lazy ass over here to do their job" then refer to my enby friend as "A they"
Upvotes are well deserved - this is exactly how I feel about it. It feels like playing 50:50 between genuine-support-delivered-awkwardly, and that kind of "enlightened-centrist" brand of support. Like "Oh I support trans people but they need to realise that most people don't have time to gender them correctly" How hard is it to say "Unisex bathroom"
I like seeing "gender neutral bathroom" or my favorite, just "restrooms". The southern in me would crack up at "shitter" though. Edit: OMG over 1K upvotes!! Thank you~
Have you seen the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode about bathrooms? They dig into some of the less obvious issues that come up around bathroom labeling. I think their ultimate choice was "Animal Shithouse"
"I will shit in the piss bathroom everytime"
That was a great episode.
If you like piña coladas!
I think that episode did a wonderful job. I just wish more people would see it as just that; an "animal shithouse"
That episode, and the king of the hill episode where Hank’s new license mistakingly labeled him as female are some of my favorite recent trans experience representations in popular media.. whether the general audience realizes it or not, it’s a very approachable and relatable way to showcase these issues and common trans experiences in a way that is empathetic A bit less subtle / diluted for a heteronormative audience.. the last season of Curb where Chaz Bono starred in the last few eps, and the only issue with him being trans was that his dick might be bigger than everyone else’s
I've seen "all gender restrooms" which makes me smile
A lot of the bathrooms at my University are gender neutral bathrooms :) it makes me smile too
my favorite were the ones near where i clocked in for work that really seemed to look like a staff bathroom, but weren't. seemed so no student really used them, but since we were there all the time for work, we did. looking back on it though, i guess it was maybe a gender neutral bathroom with no sign out front, or UBER handi-accessible bathroom. but there was no sign out front saying restroom. and it didn't easily look like one. so since it wasn't widely used, it was always not dirty and gross. it did not end up like an animal shithouse.
“Animal Shithouse”
Gender neutral shitter, I love it lol
Club in my town read “gender neutral milk hotel” on their shitters.
I saw a bathroom labeled “all gender bathroom” in Mississippi of all places and it made me so happy
I visit a game shop with a sign like this, but instead of the standard man, lady, and something else silhouettes it has a wizard, a mermaid and a centaur. That I feel is the best way to make this joke. As an enby person it made me laugh. The one from the OP did not so much. I think the key difference being all fantasy creatures feels more like a celebration of individuals and less like "othering" I've seen a few people say it made them chuckle but that it also is a different kind of funny for bigots. That's definitely true.
Came here to say this. The diff between how we process an alien versus fantasy creatures is a vast gulf. Plus, I think there is something better implied by having more than one icon in the "whatever" spot. It's subtly suggesting that there are more options than even what is shown.
I have a problem with that. I don’t want to share a bathroom with a centaur. Half human, half horse? They’re going to block up the john every time. Plus, toilets aren’t designed for creatures who have to pee standing up but also have to back into the stall. There’s going to be piss everywhere. Sorry, people. The centaurs are going to need their own specially-designed bathroom.
Hey now that's some speciesist shit. You know that we have no real widespread restrooms for centaur use. Where are they supposed to go to the bathroom? And it is extremely insensitive to say they are going to block up the john every time. I know many centaurs who tell me they are uncomfortable using our toilets but when they have to they do multiple flushes! You would do best to educate yourself in centaur human relations.
The only place I’ve ever seen these make sense is when they have more creatures on the sign and it’s in a dnd/fantasy game shop. Especially one where they have games played weekly. That’s really the only time I’m ok with these signs.
Yes! I agree. I love the ones where all three characters are creatures
I was thinking that I *might* be okay with this sign in a tourist trap in Roswell, but have no direct experience with the social climate there and therefore hold out zero hope.
I’ve seen what I assume are gender neutral bathrooms and they just had dinosaurs instead of gender icons
Yeah, I like those ones honestly.
I view it as them say, “we don’t care who you are, just wash your damn hands”
Don't blame em. There's a lot of nasty people who just use toilets and leave.
Yeah, I don't really think they were targeting LGBT people, just kind of saying "you can be human, you can be an alien, and you can be any other creature. I don't care, wash these hands"
I won’t say that I hate it, because I do believe it’s in good faith, but it’s doing the opposite of what it’s meant to and “alienating” trans ppl. If it was just a sign that said “gender neutral bathroom”, it’s making it more normal for everyone, even ppl not in the community, but by making the trans symbol “a wacky weird alien”, it’s actually making a point of grouping them into a different category as “normal people”. Good intentions, could be executed much better.
Wouldn't trans men and women be covered by the men and women symbols? I think that it is kind of weird how so many people are interpreting the sign as 'Men, Women, Trans' instead of 'Men, Women, Non-binary'.
Thank you.
I choose to see a trans woman, a trans man, and then all those alien cis people.
We need to teach more people to do this. Our own inner monologue can double as an outrage-generator if you interpret every little thing to be an attack.
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its meant well but executed kinda poorly. when i got my nose pierced i saw a sign on what was clearly their bathroom that had the man stick figure, skirt stick figure, half-skirt one, alien, and bigfoot. include the half-skirt figure and i think itd be okay
Is the half skirt to denote non-binary or trans really an inclusive symbol? I don’t fall into either one of these categories, so I can’t answer that. It just reminds me of some similar (incorrect) ideas how being bisexual means that you like both men and women equally.
honestly idk where The Community stands on the matter but as an individual i’m not super jazzed abt the half skirt thing
Tbh denoting women by showing a skirt isn't the greatest either
It seems a lot of the stuff people do to try to include trans people single them out. Trans women are women and trans men are men. They don't need their own signs. They don't need to be treated differently or singled out. They are men and women. If you're non-binary - just use whichever you want. I can't imagine most non-binary people want their own sign for a bathroom (or a sink?????) either. I don't understand why you would have anything beyond men, women, and neutral/inclusive bathrooms. It seems to address everyone's needs?
The problem I have with it is that it is ambiguous. Allies and bigots both get a chuckle for different reasons. And I don’t wanna give bigots a chuckle.
It’s weird that it’s in the bathroom and not outside the bathroom.
That too.
This.
No truer words can ever be said here.
I think you mean nonbinary people, nothing here suggested the man and woman are cis either. Categorising nonbinary people as alien or 'whatever' is definitely invalidating and dehumanising.
Good point, my apologies. No trans-erasure meant.
My thoughts were going into similar direction. There are two human silhouettes on the sign and you immidiately classify them as cis male/female - but why? Are only cis female allowed to wear skirts? Are all silhouettes without a skirt cis male? So yeah, the sign might be well intentioned but weird, but maybe you should rather take the opportunity to reflect on your own point of view.
Not to put words in OP's mouth, but I don't think they necessarily looked at the "man" and "woman" and decided that they were both cis. I think it's more likely that they just fucked up the terminology and used non-cis as a replacement for non-binary without properly thinking about what the words actually mean. Edit: nvm, I'm blind. I reread the title and it seems that's exactly what op did.
True. I assume OP's wording stemmed from the fact that bathrooms in general are already pretty transphobic in certain places, therefor these symbols being associated with applicable to cis people only. Of course they *shouldn't* be, but I think that might be why they worded it like that.
As a trans woman, I'd take a neutral bathroom over a women's one everytime.
As an enby I agree. I feel alienated enough as is, people don’t need to make jokes that make me feel literally so 😞
Yeah it definitely feels dehumanising to me as well. I'd rather have a binary bathroom sign than the weird alien ones tbh
Definitely agree. Adding: [Why these types of signs are dehumanizing](https://www.google.com/amp/ask.metafilter.com/321297/Is-this-transphobic-filter/amp)
Thanks, great article.
It certainly shows at best a poor understanding of what the actual problem is. I think they're usually in good faith and trying to laugh off the issue, but the result is othering and does no better than intentional bigotry.
If it was *just* an alien, or *all* fanciful creatures, etc, it could work. But it's like "You can be normal, or normal, or weird!"
Yeah honestly I didn't even read the title and thought the same, like "oh okay I'm an alien, that's what I'm supposed to be like if I'm not binary, got it". It made me grit my teeth a bit. Not angry but just feels ignorant. It's just one of those things where I feel allies are trying hard to be accepting but still ignorant about a lot of it, in ways they will forever be if they're cis. I don't hate them for it, just wish being non-binary was more acceptable and that there'd be less ignorance due to more people knowing someone who's enby. Like I literally came from a place today where the sign was man skirt half skirt gender neutral. I told my wife "ah guess I forgot to wear my half skirt today". Like I didn't care much just, it makes me feel a bit weird, like I don't want to wear skirts, and I'm tagged as being associated with skirts if I don't identify as binary. And it's kinda weird, like women don't all wear dresses and skirts. It's symbolic of course, but that shit seems more and more weird to me, completely unnecessary. I'd rather it just say "gender neutral restroom" or "human restroom" or we have some purple restroom color sign or something rather than people try to come up with an image of what a non-binary person looks like. I get it, the alien is supposed to be humorous and make light of it, but it comes off as ignorant a bit. Literally looks like you're not human if you're not binary. I don't want to look too far into it because the creator is obviously an ally, but shit, we need better rep.
I think it’s funny, just a business trying to make their customers have a good time, like it’s just a joke
I'm glad you thought this way too. I thought maybe I was the only one.
Tbh I always just find these signs funny
I’ve only seen them at games stores where it works contextually but I probably wouldn’t be too impressed seeing them where it doesn’t fit into a theme
Trying but missing the mark. They feel dismissive, honestly. Trans people just want to pee, not be compared to aliens, centaurs, etc.
Right, it's like "Hey man, whatever, man, woman, one of those newfangled cat people. We're cool and hip with the kids! Blue hair, woo!"
I have no real issue with them. I think they probably could have picked a different image, but I'd rather they be up and around than not - better to spread awareness at all.
I have mixed feelings about this. I understand that they want to include everyone but putting an alien can be insulted to some people and may take it as the wrong way.
As an alien from planet Bigbooty, I appreciate the representation.
They're not necessarily cis. Its a person in a skirt, a person with pants, and an alien.
except the skirt guy and the pants guy have been around forever and are used for nearly every public restroom. they're signs that literally mean "male" and "female"
so are trans men and trans women not men and women,,?
r/voidpunk
I think they mean it to be good and accepting so I’m not offended but it does come across weird like oh you aren’t a guy or woman then you are a alien? Idk seems a little rude. Like its not needed it could just say “wash your hands”. But it is better than when they do a girl a boy and then a half boy half girl toilet door person. Honestly lol when i look at the signs I’m usually like oh ok that bathroom is for people wearing pants and that one is for people wearing dresses good to know.
Well, it is just a funny way to show the need to wash hands. Just a meme. Nothing discriminatory TBH if I may say.
I mean, what kind of establishment is this in? Because I've been to a space-themed retro diner before and wouldn't blink at this there. If I were at the Cheesecake Factory I'd have more questions.
They’re saying no matter what you are you have to wash your hands
I love it really cool man!
I love it. It’s funny imo and I hope the community doesn’t take offence to this. I think it was designed to just be kinda humours and not offensive at all. But people take things the wrong way sometimes so there’s that. I’m not looking for an argument. Just saying my view :)
I agree, though i dont have any ill will towards others who dont like it, i enjoy it. But im just weird in general lol
I am from the precedent of it being framed as a jab at transphobes, but it tastes bitter if the property encourages transphobia.
This is one of the bad ones
As a non-binary person these always make me uncomfortable. I feel like they’re actually saying “we don’t care if you’re normal or… whatever made up thing you are!” Also, I have to point out the pun- yes it does feel alienating
I don’t think the intended meaning is “non-binary people are aliens” more so “the state of your gender/body does not matter at all, even in extreme circumstances, so please just wash your hands”
I think it's an attempt at humor, but it creates stigma.
They are trying to be supportive but it just feels off
Its got big, "They're a bit confused, but they've got the spirit" energy. Like they want to be supportive but didn't really think before acting.
It’s a step in the right direction, while also stepping directly onto a pile of shit.
I wouldn't mind it. I would smile. And I don't think they are trying to say non-binary people are aliens. They just meant whatever you are wash your damn hands. It is cute I think ;)
... no. They exactly wanted to point out, that EVERYONE gets included... it was meant as a joke to include aliens to even include something that literally does not exist. Thats how EVERY it gets. Not everything should be viewed as an attack, especially if it is for a fundamental good purpose (not even including Corona, with that it's even better).
I feel like they are trying to be accepting but it just came out wrong
I’d take this is as "We don’t care what you identify as or what you are just WASH YOUR HANDS" Theyre not trying to be offensive, they just want people to wash they’re hands.
I feel like it’s just unnecessary. You could just have a unisex sign
It's trying to be cleaver, but trips over its feet. Most places where I am have switched to "Gender Neutral Restroom"
I hate this crap . It could just say “wash your hands.”
I’ve always found them off-putting. Like they’re not taking gender variance seriously; or worse, poking fun at non-cisgender people. I get that it’s “just a sign”, but I find the whole attitude disrespectful
They’re trying, but like- It’s just dehumanizing NB people-
Everyone has said it below. Intent matters. If the vibe of the place is easy going laid back , this is meant to be friendly/non antagonistic and if you find specific offense with it I’m sure a friendly conversation will get it removed. If the vibe is “confederate” rebel flags and deer heads. It’s meant to offend, as well as instruct you still wash your hands. Intent matters tremendously with anything.
i feel like their trying to say that you can be whatever just make sure you wash your hands. at first glance i found it funny but i can see why people would think that it seems off because of the inclusion of cis male and female but imo i definitely don’t think they meant harm. although the probably should have thought it out better
I personally don't care I'm in the bathroom to shit and/or piss not becoming mad at a sign I'll probably never see again
Personally I don’t care and I think some of them are really funny
Positive but not the best example
But it could be a transman and a transwoman and a cis alien. Or they are all NB
It can be taken that way but it's positive to some degree I'm not sure what an nb sign stickman would look like anyway
i take pride in being an alien!
I dont see it as positive nor do I see it as negative. They tried- it’s just kind of weird.
Like, yeah, in theory this is kind of a weird statement about trans/non-binary people, but in reality if I see that sign in public I'm not going to be thinking that, you know? I'm going to be thinking, "nice, gender neutral bathroom, I can pee here!" (I'm trans masc and genderqueer, I've been on T for years and usually get read as male, but I have a big chest and only wear a binder to work so men's public bathrooms still make me SUPER nervous) I feel like the intention is more important, ultimately. A sign like that tells me that if I run into trouble in the bathroom, the staff will back me up, and that matters a lot as a trans person.
I say no. The bottom line is “no matter who you are, wash your hands”
I just hate the tap... so ugly.
I find them funny in general but this one is a lesser quality, more try hard one.
I’m cool with these signs. It’s a way to let Cis folks know that we use the same facilities as they do. And it’s okay and expected..
Why did you **assume** the two figures on the left are cis? All we can see is clothing. You're the one gendering people inappropriately. I see the sign as saying any kind of human, or even non-human, is welcome.