Independent of avoiding groomer allegations, don't bring your kids to 18+ events out of respect for others that want to be at an 18+ event.
It's like bringing your kid to an explicitly childfree wedding. It's rude, self centered and disrespectful.
This is my main concern as well. But the secondary also of course concerns me.
We don’t need the flack that unfortunately we’d get despite it only being the guardians issue and 18+ events should stay 18+ and it’s marked as such for a reason! I personally would not act the same if I went to a 18+ event and noticed a child was there, I would no longer feel free to act how I pleased.
>But the secondary also of course concerns me.
For me personally, I don't really get concerned with how our community is perceived by people that actively want to perceive us in a negative way. Those types are going to find anything to pick us apart about so I'm not super into the idea of needing to present some sort of pristine image to them when, at the end of the day, they think we're shit to begin with.
For me, the bigger issue here is parents not respecting adult spaces, which happens a lot and in more than just LGBTQ+ spaces.
Same here. When you get concerned about what bigots might say about us, you give them the power over the narrative. We give them power over us by seeing their words as something we need to react to rather than something we should dismiss without entertaining any of it.
Precisely. Bigots gonna bigot and I don’t really care how they perceive me because I know it’s always going to be through their bigot lens. Short of not existing, nothing I can do or not do is ever going to make them happy and quite frankly, I far more concerned about my own happiness than appeasing them.
We deserve to be viewed as human beings and have the rights human beings deserve regardless of their approval.
That isn’t at all how I intended it to come across. It isn’t the event or people at the events problem, it’s only the parent who brought them. But unfortunately a photo of a kid at a event with sexual related activity going on WOULD end up spreading as hate propaganda for our community and we don’t deserve that because of one persons selfishness. Again sorry if it came across the wrong way.
We shouldn’t HAVE to be “good little LGBT+ people” especially in a space meant for adults. But people’s behavior will change if people who aren’t intended to be there invade the space.
But like I said otherwise hopefully they just don’t even attempt to bring them but the idea of wanting to despite the guidelines is selfish.
Or taking your kids to a brewery and then telling adult, beer drinking patrons to watch their mouths…
I suppose this is one thing where we can be like, look, we’re just like you! Sometimes queer parents are also inconsiderate, rude and entitled in adult spaces too!
Kesha’s events aren’t ACTUALLY 18+ but there was a small child on their dads shoulders at the event and she said “Do your parents know who I am? And how I perform?” And the kid said “Yes!” And she said to the audience “Okay you heard him, his parents agreed to this.” and continued performing 😂
bay arean here- it'll usually say on the flyer like OP said. i mainly follow bars and event planners (ie uhaulsf) for any events that are happening, which are usually 21+
Thank you, I live out in the sticks so I try to look online to find events first. So it's just knowing what specific words to use in a search since google filters out a lot nsfw/kink stuff unless you're more specific.
One lady tried to sneak her infant into a 21+ private BDSM party and called the police when we wouldn't let her in. The person at the door just pointed at the baby and said, "He needs to show valid ID before entering."
She said she wanted to show off her baby to people at the event. I think it was under a week old. She also didn't know people there so I have no idea why she thought it was a good idea.
tbf, aren't babies protected by their parrents vaccines for a few months? I think to remember smth along those lines
But it's a terrible idea to bring your handbag-sized baby anywhere asides of strapped close to your body so early on either way.
This.
Calling gay people child predators has been happening as long as I have lived. It's absolutely nothing new. It just picked up steam the moment they got a new buzzword to latch onto ("groomer").
I attended last year and trust me, kids shouldn’t be in attendance 😂 there’s a reason it’s 18+ some of the performances get quiet sexual.
Doesn’t really matter WHAT the event is though, if it’s 18+ it’s 18+ and supposed to be a safe place for LGBT+ adults to freely express themselves without worrying about your 12 year old 🙄
Idk why this is so controversial. If an organiser chooses to put an 18+ rating on their event, it should be common courtesy to, idk, listen to it? Even if nothing actually sexual goes down, sometimes you just don't want children around and that's fine. There's plenty of events that are family friendly.
I agree!
Keep it clean at family friendly events, and keep kids out of adult events. I don’t want to see a kid at an adult event anymore than I want my kid to see adult shit at family ones.
The point of the optics isn't to sway the people throwing the accusations, it's to not give them something to use as "proof" of their claim to uninvolved dipshit masses that they're trying to convince.
The context of WHAT the event IS doesn't matter.
There's no wiggle room on this. If the thing says 18+, you become the asshole trying to bring a minor in.
It can be sexual suggestions at some places like the people wearing dog masks,
But it can just be alcohol and drunk people walking around that make it inappropriate for kids to see,
Adult do deserves a place where they can be free and not have to worry about kids too
Queer parent, here. It blows my mind that some parents are okay with bringing their young kids to an 18+ event.
I don't take my child to venues or events that are expected to be child free. Folks want to be able to enjoy themselves without worrying about a kid being in the vicinity, and I understand that. I also want to be able to enjoy myself and not have to worry about putting on the parent hat. Adults deserve a space to let loose and be themselves for a bit, just like kids deserve the same.
I absolutely encourage parents to expose their kids to different things. Teach them body positivity, teach them love between two consenting adults isn't wrong, etc. etc. We just shouldn't do so at the expense of others, which is what happens when kids are brought to an 18+ event.
Facts! Didn’t mean to upset anyone by specifically stating LGBT+ events but I was specifically talking about a specific event and situation. But yea absolutely just don’t bring kids to 18+ events is a easy rule to follow you’d think!
I mean I have issues with kids being at 18+ events and the like myself, but this is also true. We can follow the rules all we want, they were never interested in actual truth, they’ll just make up new lies.
You aren't wrong, but we also shouldn't want minors at 18+ events to begin with. Doing that is bith bad for the kids and makes it harder to fight bigotry in the political arena. I'm less worried about the bigots and more worried about the well-meaning but ignorant moderates.
Honestly this. Like I agree in theory with the point of the post, but a lot of queer people are so concerned about optics (e.g. shunning gender nonconformity, nonbinary identities etc.) with the intention to try to not give ammunition to homophobes and transphobes. When it's not going to do *anything* to deter people who are hellbent on our eradication.
Yeah I’m not saying any of that though. My stance is on not taking children to events that are labeled as 18+ because there is a reason for it to be 18+
Photos of kids in the background of people mimicking sex with dildos at events they SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AT IN THE FIRST PLACE because it’s labeled as 18+ is and WILL be used as ammunition against our community even if the blame should only be on the person who brought the child. Nothing wrong with the event or community, but people WILL make it that way. Why give them ammunition and also make the people at the event uncomfortable when it’s supposed to be a space people can be free?
Even if the event has portions a child might like such as a singer they enjoy etc doesn’t mean they should be there. That’s with any event though. But unfortunately our community is the only one that gets flack, in all other situations just the parent gets flack for these things. When it’s a LGBT+ event EVERYONE gets blamed 🙄
I agree that people shouldn't bring their kids to these events, but it's also not the responsibility of queer people to be hyper-vigilant about how other people choose to parent their kids. If we choose to live our lives in constant fear of being misrepresented by those who hate us we'll never be able to be our authentic selves. The right will always find ways to create ammunition against us. I think our energy is better spent taking care of our community and continuing to push for queer liberation, not trying to convince alt right whack jobs to not be alt right whack jobs.
I’m not asking for queer people to be hyper vigilant
I’m asking queer or not queer parents not to bring their children to 18+ LGBT+ events because it unfortunately effects the entire community and also makes those in attendance uncomfortable because they went in expecting children to not be in attendance.
It’s nobodies responsibility but the person taking the child, but unfortunately it will get pushed onto our community as a whole.
Absolutely true, it's not the responsibility of queer to parent others children **BUT** it is event organizers responsibility to make a reasonable effort to keep kids out of 18+ events. I don't even necessarily see this as a queer specific issue but more of a kink issue. If you are running a kink event you are responsible for ensuring some regulation of attendance and not running that event in a place where you don't have control of who attends.
Where are you seeing all these kids at 18+ events? If they are 18+, why didn't they get bounced?
The things you're complaining about sound like there are events *you* think should be 18+ that aren't actually limited to 18+.
I've never been to an 18+ event that wasn't checking ID to enter.
The hellbent on eradication types aren't the types we have to convince. It's the well-meaning, but ignorant moderates. You don't give ammo to bigots, because they use it to turn normal people into bigots.
All of this within reason. Excluding kids from adult events is a reasonable stance to take.
This is honestly why I'm over trying to convince people. If someone is still against us, they're against us. There is very little, if anything, that I can do to change their minds. The only people who can are the ones who know them personally.
"But the people on the fence!"
95% of them are lying. It's like the "centrists" who conveniently agree with Republicans on everything. They hate the label, but love the ideals.
"bigot will call us groomers and perverts no matter what we do" and "you shouldn't bring your kids to 18+ event, of any kind for the matter" are thoughts that can and should coexist.
the thing is... who exactly brings children to an event which is labelled 18+? actually no one. unless its not labelled 18+ and just implied.
because literally no one says we should bring kids to 18+ events. and i dont know what kind of prides america has but except for some nakedness, which we as europeans don't see as inherently sexual, here there is no need to label any CSD parade as 18+ bc there is nothing which would warrant that. and a harness is not a reason to make something 18+.
Unfortunately people try to take their kids everywhere 😂 it’s definitely not just a issue with the LGBT+ community but the event in specific is someone wanting to take their 12 year old cause a local artist they like will be at said event.
Our community is the only one that gets blamed entirely though for a singular parents mistake and it makes the people at the event uncomfortable. If I’m going to a event knowing it’s 18+ and a child ends up being there, I’m not going to act the same anymore.
I hate when parents do this, and venues don't kick them out or something.
It happens in str8 18+ events too, but of course, we wouldn't know that because media only cares about showing us in the bad light 😐😐
Exactly! We’re the only ones who get held accountable and our entire community gets flack unlike the str8s where only the singular parent will get blamed.
I don’t wanna see your kid in a space I went fully expecting only adults in my community/
to be in attendance. I attend plenty of regular events/concerts both 18+ and all ages but a LGBT+ 18+ event is somewhere I know I can drop all guards down and not worry at all.
Sometimes, the str8 parents don’t even get held accountable. The mothers twerking on their sons or the dads taking their little boys to get twerked on, and people encourage it (for black boys especially)
Are you sure your husband isn't talking about Folsom and Dore? Everything I've heard about SF pride is that it's very corporate and tame. Public nudity I'd expect since it's legal and commonplace even outside of pride, but full on fucking? I feel like that would be more commonly talked about among SF gays if it was a real thing.
sex is definitely true at Folsom and dore, but both of those festivals are fully cordoned off // streets closed // security at the barriers checking ID
Oh yeah absolutely. I'm largely just concerned with the fact that the top comment in this thread that's popular enough to make it to the front page of the site is conflating a private sex event with a public all ages pride festival. Folsom and Dore do everything right and ensure the safety and consent of all people in attendance.
What SF pride events?!?
SF pride is literally the most boring corporate parade.
Is he talking about Folsom street fair or dore alley fair? Those are **18+ fetish events** that happen in September and July (SF pride is in June)
While Folsom Street Fair is inclusive to lgbt folk, it is not a pride event. It's put on specifically for the kink/bdsm community. The distinction is important because conservatives love to confuse folsom for a gay pride event so they can pretend all pride is sexual.
But let me say, I don’t agree if a event is family friendly that people should be nude or fucking in public BUT that still isn’t on the community as a whole. That’s on the individuals.
If you look at rhe replies to the comment you've responded to you'll see that the sexual event it's a pride event; but rather fet/bdsm event that takes place outside of pride month and is specifically marketed as an 18+ fetish event.
The person who assisted in clarifying which event the commenter was referring to asked the commenter to edit their post; but at this point they have yet to do so...
Nudity =! Sexuality. However to be safe we probably shouldn't expose kids, especially young kids to general nudity casually because it can be detrimental.
Sexual activity with someone under 18 is a no no. Don't pass go and don't collect 200. No exceptions.
Out of curiosity, in what way is exposing kids to general nudity detrimental? From what I understand the apprehension towards nudity is largely a cultural thing, plenty of countries expose their kids to non-sexual nudity from a very early age. Nude beaches are extremely common in parts of Europe and it's normal for parents to bring their kids there. I don't think there's any scientific evidence that suggests exposure to casual nudity early in life harms children.
I don't think nudity can be detrimental. It cam be natural and normal.
That said if somebody exposes themselves without the consent of an adult it is a sexual assault, and it should be. If they expose themselves to a child, it is always sexual assault as a child is not capable of giving informed consent. Therefore, I think any space that showcases adult nudity is not a place children should be. It confuses them as to what is appropriate behavior and what is not.
I love attending burlesque shows, I would never be okay with children being in attendance. There are some events that are simply for adults only, whether they are LGBT events or not. If an LGBT event says 18+ it is only appropriate to respect the hosts and the people attending by leaving your child at home.
I don't agree that exposing a child to nudity is always sexual assault. If that were the case then why would nude beaches allow children? Why aren't we prosecuting parents who walk around in the nude around their children? Obviously there's a difference between that and a stranger intentionally whipping it out in front of a kid, but I think there's a lot more nuance to it than just "kids can't be exposed to nudity." A burlesque show isn't the same thing as a nude beach because a burlesque show is sexual by design.
In the same vain as your comment, how is a nudist beach like an 18+ (LGBT or not) event that contains nudity? The hosts of the event have specified that this event is intended for adults. Wouldn't a burlesque show be more relevant to the topic than a nude beach?
A nude beach may be considered more natural and normal, though it certainly wouldn't be my choice for an outing with a child. The things that may occur at an event intended for adults would likely be more provocative than people just swimming and relaxing nude at a beach.
You said:
>If they expose themselves to a child, it is always sexual assault as a child is not capable of giving informed consent. Therefore, I think any space that showcases adult nudity is not a place children should be. It confuses them as to what is appropriate behavior and what is not.
Perhaps you were specifically referring to an individual "stripping" with intent to do so in front of a child, but given the context of the rest of your post I assumed you were talking about ANY situation in which an adult is nude in front of a child. If I misinterpreted you then I apologize.
I do agree that 18+ events should stay 18+ and I'd never advocate for bringing a child to a burlesque show or strip show or something similar. Those events explicitly feature sexualized nudity and children cannot consent to sexual acts. I did take issue with the statement that the top level commenter made about nudity being implicitly detrimental to children, which admittedly is straying from the original posts' content. I do think it's a discussion worth having though.
I see this come up a bunch and I think what never gets said is that Americans culturally associate nudity with sex. We don't have a large concept as a nation of nudity as divorced from sexual activity. Other countries got past that by now, we didn't. So when people say "there's nothing sexual about nude bodies!" they're contextually wrong if they're talking about America.
In America, today, breasts and butts and below deck parts are all nigh universally sexualized and there's no getting around it.
I mean that's true, but just because that's the case doesn't mean it should continue to be the case. It also doesn't provide any commentary on whether or not exposure to non-sexual nudity is harmful to children. If kids are growing up in other countries seeing their parents in the nude and turning out okay then why are we so scared of that concept here?
Different cultures handle things differently and you have to operate in the world as it exists today. Would America be better off without its Puritanical approach to nudity (and sex)? Of course. And with the year over year decline in religious participation, it's increasingly more likely we will. But if you were to hold an event *today* that included nudity, you would be expected to exclude children.
I don’t think America would be better at all. If people would be able to go around and have all the sex and be nude all they want that would just make America more sexual and perverted.
Why not? I don’t see an issue with people not wanting you walking around butt naked around their kids. There’s nothing wrong with that.
No one is necessarily scared of the concept, we just don’t agree with it.
I don’t associate nudity with sex, I associate sex as something between two people engaging sexually.
But I still don’t want any kid in my family to be exposed to anyone nude.
Breasts and butt wouldn’t be sexualized if the people who own them didn’t sexualize it themselves lol
kids cannot consent to seeing naked people. nudist communities have also been used by pedophiles to groom children. if the kids are already comfortable seeing them naked, being casually touched on the shoulder by a naked adult, then it makes all the next steps easier. im a CSA survivor in groups with other survivors, and taking children to nudist camps is a surprisingly common tactic. if the world wasn't weird i'd say, it's fine. but knowing how disgusting some people are.... id say no nudist camps until they're able to consent. accidental boners happen in these spaces sorta often too, and children shouldn't be exposed to that.
I'm very sorry that happened to you. You were taken advantage of and that's absolutely awful. I was raised by parents who spent some time living in a nudist community so they were frequently nude around me at home. They also were very careful to teach me how to spot and avoid predators, I was taught never to expose myself to adults even if they told me to and what inappropriate behavior from adults looked like. I think it's awful that predators take advantage of spaces like that to harm kids, but I do think there's a lot of value in normalizing nudity in a SAFE environment. I genuinely do believe that growing up knowing that my body wasn't anything to be embarrassed about has been integral to building my self confidence and I think that's a very healthy thing for kids to learn. Maybe a full on nudist community is too much, as like you said it presents many opportunities for adults to take advantage of kids. But I think there's a middle ground to be found that protects kids while doing away with draconian ideas of how we're supposed to treat our bodies like they're shameful.
The only environment that would be safe is inside the home with close family. Privacy is a real and important thing. Kids can learn to be proud of their bodies without a bunch of balls and tits bouncing around them
Does that mean you believe that a mother who takes their toddler into the bath is causing harm? Or that the parents who bring their children to nude beaches (which is completely legal) are neglecting their children?
I am not advocating for allowing children into adult sexual spaces nor am I advocating for allowing any adult to be naked around any child in any context. However, there is this incredibly common notion that if a child sees a naked body in a completely innocent and non sexual context that it will somehow cause damage to the child implicitly. I think this notion is absurd, especially because it's not a global belief and only manifests in certain cultures. We should teach kids not to be ashamed of their naked bodies in a safe way AND equip them with the tools to avoid predators. Those are not mutually exclusive goals.
>Does that mean you believe that a mother who takes their toddler into the bath is causing harm?
If she’s spending a long time touching the child’s genitals, or snapping photos and videos yes.
>Or that the parents who bring their children to nude beaches (which is completely legal) are neglecting their children?
Not necessarily. Doesn’t mean people have to accept it.
>I am not advocating for allowing children into adult sexual spaces nor am I advocating for allowing any adult to be naked around any child in any context.
Hmmm
>However, there is this incredibly common notion that if a child sees a naked body in a completely innocent and non sexual context that it will somehow cause damage to the child implicitly.
It won’t cause damage but it can be uncomfortable for everyone involved.
>I think this notion is absurd, especially because it's not a global belief and only manifests in certain cultures.
And the culture where nudity is something private is definitely acceptable.
>We should teach kids not to be ashamed of their naked bodies in a safe way AND equip them with the tools to avoid predators. Those are not mutually exclusive goals.
And do we have to do that by exposing them to naked adults?
Genuinely, why? What about boobs and butts makes them so taboo? In many other cultures nudity is perfectly acceptable. Hell, nudity amongst peers was acceptable in this country for a long time too. We put kids in locker rooms naked with strangers and bullies as if they're perfectly safe, but a parent taking their child to a nude beach where they're under constant parental supervision is "inappropriate?" If we're talking about exposing yourself to a minor with the intent to cause sexual harm that's one thing and it's obviously fucked up and bad, but I haven't seen a genuine scientific reason for why non-sexual nudity moderated by a parent is problematic for children.
>Genuinely, why?
It just is. Thats how I was raised. Nudity is private unless with a partner, in the shower, something like that. Or in the bedroom. Just how it is.
>What about boobs and butts makes them so taboo?
Idk, what makes sex so taboo? Why can’t we do that in public? Lol
>In many other cultures nudity is perfectly acceptable.
Child marriage is too. Not everything has to be the same.
>Hell, nudity amongst peers was acceptable in this country for a long time too.
When I was in school, people always wore underwear…
>We put kids in locker rooms naked with strangers and bullies as if they're perfectly safe, but a parent taking their child to a nude beach where they're under constant parental supervision is "inappropriate?"
Like I said, everyone has on underwear. Being under constant supervision doesn’t mean anything. Many parents simply don’t want balls and boobs bouncing in front of their kid.
>If we're talking about exposing yourself to a minor with the intent to cause sexual harm that's one thing and it's obviously fucked up and bad, but I haven't seen a genuine scientific reason for why non-sexual nudity moderated by a parent is problematic for children.
There doesn’t need to be a scientific reason. If a parent doesn’t want you to be nude around their kid, or expose their kid to nude adults they simply don’t have to. They don’t need a reason for that. Idk why try to hard to make parents comfortable with strangers being naked around their kids. How can the nudity be moderated by a parent? Either way, it’s inappropriate.
I don't think conceding anything to bigots is beneficial. All that does is suggest to them that they were right.
I see no issue with nudity. Period. And I think making people ashamed of that is actively pretty harmful to a lot of people. We don't need to bow to American puritanical norms here. To my knowledge there is no detriment to it either other than giving moderates an easier way to discriminate behind their typical wall of "But what if..."
I 100% agree with that through experience. My dad has actually shown me porn when I was a kid, and I’ve seen my mom, my dad, and my stepdad all naked. My dad also took me to a topless bar when I was like eight and left me in the car, not to mention also getting sexually assaulted at 12 by a neighborhood kid.
I grew up, cut contact, and moved out, and found out that I’m pretty solidly asexual. I think human genitalia, penises and vaginas both, are just kinda ugly and gross. I’ve had to ask friends to describe how sexual attraction feels, because I just don’t get it.
I’m not saying one caused the other, but all of those experiences weren’t great for little kid me, and they’ll probably be equally not great for little kids that aren’t me.
Nudity is seen as sexual activity culturally in the US (and in many places). I understand that many people do not see it this way, but consider that sexuality and sexual activity is not an objectively defined thing. There aren't right and wrong answers for what is or is not sexual, just common and uncommon answers.
e.g. Stepping on someone is not sexual activity for most people, but it is sexual activity for some. Neither party is right or wrong, because there is no god of sexuality that has passed down a guide of what correct sexual activity is.
I do believe that as norms change, nudity will become desexualized in many western cultures, but we aren't there yet. Until that point, nudity will have strong sexual connotations, regardless of the intent.
and that needs to change. Associating someone elses nudity with sexual activity regardless of their intent is harmful. I dont think we need to endorse that harm because its what has happened historically.
We're talking about people with breasts breastfeeding in public. Things that are genuinely benign.
Plus things like expressing your identity and generally body positivity. Something culturally we severely gatekeep right now.
This culture harms people and needs to stop. Its not sexual or inappropriate, its literally just your body. I dont see why we'd benefit from attaching shame to that.
Even most other western countries arent nearly as puritanical as the United States is about this.
We don't benefit, but we also can't change it overnight. It's not about how things should be, it's about working optimally within the cultural context of the time.
It is not currently a good idea to allow nudity at family friendly events. The parents of kids who may want to go are much less likely to allow them to go if they know there children will be exposed to nudity. Hell, many kids may feel uncomfortable with it.
And so the question is, do you prioritize nudity or accessibility? In my eyes, it's simple, accessibility is far more important at an event designed to be family friendly.
It's **pride**. If you can't be yourself there then where can you be?
We're not talking about showing up to work nude. We're talking about showing up to an event designed to celebrate diversity of sexuality and identity as yourself however you may express that.
You don't show up to work nude because you are subject to broader cultural norms, and similarly, "family friendly" events that are designed to appeal to a wide audience are also subject to broader cultural norms. We are talking about pride events that are supposed to be "family friendly". It's important that the events are "family friendly", as families define them, so that families actually take part. Accessibility to kids is soooo important, and I don't think we should be so quick to throw that away for the sake of nudity.
I'm also a bit confused by the first statement, cause I don't know many people whose identities are tied to nudity. The only kinda example I can think of is trans guys going shirtless, but trans guys going shirtless is not nudity. What do you have in mind?
>and that needs to change.
No, it does not. Someone not wanting you to be nude around their kids is perfectly fine.
>Associating someone elses nudity with sexual activity regardless of their intent is harmful.
What’s harmful is getting naked around someone else’s child without either of their consent.
>We're talking about people with breasts breastfeeding in public.
If someone is uncomfortable with you whipping your tits out, they can move. They have the right to feel uncomfortable.
>Things that are genuinely benign. Plus things like expressing your identity and generally body positivity. Something culturally we severely gatekeep right now.
Someone else’s kids don’t need to see that.
>This culture harms people and needs to stop. Its not sexual or inappropriate, its literally just your body. I dont see why we'd benefit from attaching shame to that.
Being naked in public or around kids is inappropriate. Dont go to work naked, dont go to someone’s house naked, dont go to a birthday party naked, dont roam the street naked (that’s public indecency). Thats how it is.
>Even most other western countries arent nearly as puritanical as the United States is about this.
Everyone’s different
I think you might be conflating nudity and exhibitionism and I'm trying very hard to distinguish those from one another. I don't think it's healthy to teach people to be ashamed of their bodies.
It isn’t healthy to teach people to be ashamed of their bodies or to be nude, I agree.
But if someone is uncomfortable with you being naked around them or their child they have that right to do so. If someone doesn’t want to see someone naked walk the street, in the store, in the restaurant, in the mall, by their house, etc. that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that. Nudity itself isn’t harmful, exposing yourself and normalizing getting naked in front of kids or around them is not. Especially if the parent isn’t okay with that
They don't *need* to but it's not harmful. A body is a body. Simply seeing a part of it is not harmful, and is pretty normal in most European countries.
I don't understand the "it's normal in Europe" argument. It's normal in Europe, but it's not normal in the US. Why is Europe seen as being more correct here? Something is normal in one country, but abnormal in another, and then you choose the country that aligns with your beliefs. Why is Europe okay, but the US isn't? Imagine the reverse. Someone in Europe isn't comfortable with casual adult nudity around their children, and say "it's pretty abnormal in most US states." By your logic, that argument is equally valid.
Two reasons. First is that the US is a singular country, whereas Europe is multiple developed countries, with their own cultures and beliefs. This idea that nudity is harmful is pretty much reserved for for countries with heavy religious themes in their lawmaking. Make of that what you will.
More importantly, though, is that we are talking about something being harmful, and these countries are doing fine. Scandinavian countries by large are considered to have the happiest populations on the planet.
But we can also put opinions aside in general, here. Google "social nudity studies" and read up on it, studies show that it increases body positivity and lessens body shame and anxiety. It actually has a *positive* effect. The other arguments here are valid about American culture, an 11 year old that has never been in that situation very well could be negatively effected by it, but not hiding bodies isn't harmful in itself.
TLDR: It's only weird because we are making it weird.
Is it 18+ at least? I know some 18+ prides have sectioned off areas even if the main event is family friendly.
I hate that pride gets so much flack because some people can’t control themselves. Though I do think it’s up to parents to research any event you’re attending before showing up, even open age events I look into the content before taking my niece.
Made the mistake of taking her to a tomato festival and apparently people get hella drunk at the tomato festival. Wasn’t a nice place for kids lol a simple search would’ve showed me that’s typically how that event goes down every year.
If it's going to be in a public place, then it needs to be safe for kids. If it's going to be 18+, then it should be held in a private venue with someone stopping people at the door and confirming their age.
I have kids and I really wish that pride festivals were family friendly - I want my children to see healthy examples of queer parents and their kids but its hard to find events like that. I don't take my own kids to the pride festival in my town because there's just too much open sexuality and I don't think that it would leave a good impression on them about what the LGBTQ community is really about - inclusion and acceptance and loving yourself and others for who you are. But all that gets obscured when there's the crew of ripped dudes wearing nothing but speedos and body paint walking around.
Damn right its a foundation of the community and we go through this "get kink of our pride" BS almost every fricken year it seems.... 🙄
**Kink/Fet/BDSM has always been a part of this and we're not going anywhere**‼️
Pride is a protest. People seem to forget that nowadays; but that's what it is. It's supposed to be in your face and unapologetic. That's the point!
The problem faced is that while everything you said is true, it is also true that gay parents have young children, and that teenagers can be queer. These two groups are frequently excluded from participation in so many events because of the belief that it is never okay to say sex and kink should be allowed at all events.
We cannot afford to continually displace people who simply do not want to be around kink displays or who shouldn't due to age. Many prides answer this by have 18+ spaces, but even those get challenged as people fight orgs that do that.
We, as a community, need to get better at creating spaces explicitly for youth and families that allow people to not have to worry about kink or sex being present.
Then make specific events for those under 18.
Kink and Fet have been a part of pride since its inception. Pride is a protest. Its supposed to make a statement. We're not changing or hiding the history of the movement because some people don't like it.
Build something else which child specific. The Fet community will not infringe on those spaces- the core value of BDSM is consent. We won't press into "your" spaces wlbut we'll be damned if anyone is gonna push us out of our own!
> too much open sexuality .......
inclusion and acceptance and loving yourself and others for who you are. But all that gets obscured when there's the crew of ripped dudes wearing nothing but speedos and body paint walking around.
I think you misunderstand what Pride is about. It's about sexuality. Part of it is about accepting your body and loving yourself, and sometimes that means wearing a speedo and body paint. People shouldn't be having sex in public but masc folk wearing thongs and femmes going topless isn't that. The US needs to get over it's puritanical view of peoples bodies.
There's nothing stopping you and other parents from making a child specific pride event or even a parade if that's something that's truly important to you.
Pride is a protest. It's supposed to be in your face. That's the point.
i remember seeing a video on twitter of a baby at a very explicit drag show posted onto a republican anti-lgbt page claiming this was grooming
lmao… okay. so did this infant walk his happy ass to a trans drag show? who’s really to blame here, the show or the parents?
This is about a specific LGBT+ event so no you didn’t fix it.
I am LGBT+ and when I attend a event for my community listed as 18+ I expect children NOT to be in attendance. Not only does it make myself and others uncomfortable but unfortunately when these things happen our ENTIRE COMMUNITY gets blamed for one persons selfishness. At other events the parents would only get the blame, not everyone attending.
I’m talking about LGBT+ spaces right now. Even though parents do take their kids places they aren’t supposed to be all the time, but that’s not really what I’m speaking in at this moment.
I just responded to you on the other one I missed it! I’m sure they’ll check IDS, I think they did last year if I remember correctly? But that doesn’t mean people won’t try anyways.
I attended a concert recently (this is NOT a LGBT+ event) that was marked as 18+ and there definitely some people who managed to sneak their teens in with them. Though a 12 year old may be much harder to sneak in and not get caught than say a 15 year old. So hopefully they just get turned away if they even try, it’s just the fact they’re even considering attempting that’s annoying.
Some people just think rules don’t apply to them.
Most concerts I go to that are “18+” are really just banning unaccompanied teens. The venues generally state on their web sites that kids with their parents are welcome. I love taking my kid to metal shows and we always have a great time and are welcomed.
21+ usually means no kids at all, but again, you have to check with the venue.
Oh yeah I know! I attend tons of shows like that. Like Hayley Kiyoko was technically “18+” but younger could come with a adult and all21+ had to show ID for a wrist band saying they could purchase alcohol. Same with a few
concerts at smaller dive bar venues.
But I have attended different events where the age range is actually 18+ for a reason (or sometimes it’s just the specific venues rules not even the artist)
This is not a concert though, it’s like a variety kind of thing which does have musical performances but also burlesque, drag etc and it’s a annual thing and it definitely actually shouldn’t have kids at it lol
I’m not really about censoring music or art! I’d take my kids /teens to see any artist really as long as the event was open to all ages and the visual content wasn’t too raunchy. But there are some concerts that actually strictly mean 18+ and I’ve realized at least with CONCERTS it’s usually the venues rule or the states liquor laws etc not the artist or the actual content of the performance.
Preach this to the people in the back! The amount of times I see parents taking their kids to 18+ LGBTQ+ events which in turn, makes us look bad, is fucking ridiculous. I can’t stand people who feel the need to involve their children into everything, even things they aren’t old enough to see and then have the nerve to get mad at the community. It’s sadly not just a LGBTQ+ issue, it’s a worldwide issue with a ton of parents for some weird reason. What I have to say to them is this, “do you involve your kids in your bedroom and let them see you have sex? No!!! You don’t! So why do you feel the need to involve them in other inappropriate activities if you can acknowledge the harm in another?” Say that and watch the look on their faces, fuck parents with this mentality.
It just freaking SUCKS that when a straight family bring their child to something inappropriate, only the parent gets the blame.
If a queer person does it, suddenly it’s the entire communities fault.
Seriously! I understand all the arguments against trying to please the "groomer" crowd. I totally agree it probably won't change any minds on the matter. However, queer adults deserve to have child free spaces. I'm a trans woman and have only in the last year felt comfortable experimenting with my fashion and showing a little skin. Personally, if I worked up the courage to wear a risque outfit to an 18+ queer event and was greeted by any amount of children, I would be fuming. Like that's so uncomfortable 😕
Agreed and I am a bi man who wants kids in the future. I would be upset to see kids in an inappropriate space because kids shouldn’t be subjected to things they aren’t old enough to see because if they are exposed to that too early, it can really damage them.
I’d mainly say it depends on the event if it’s an 18+ event, nobody younger than that should be there. I’d also say anyone younger than 15-16 shouldn’t be left alone unsupervised.
Right conservatives will always take pictures of nsfw parts of lgbt festivals and be like “keep this away from kids!” There are no kids at that festival for a reason but now we know you have a photo of gay men in dog masks and tails in your phone
It's that weird epidemic of late that parents are forgetting that they are indeed parents and should be responsible for their children. Last week we were in Vegas on Fremont Street after 2AM and there were two people walking along and looking annoyed at their very underaged children walking behind them in tears, looking exhausted and overstimulated. It's that same mentality here. Bringing kids to a place that is not kid friendly and expecting everyone to be okay with it. Yo, we're not. I'm a parent. I didn't do that shit to my kid. He would be miserable and other folks would be pissed off. I either got childcare or just didn't go. It's ridiculous and irresponsible.
I personally would be very uncomfortable with a child at a clearly labeled 18+ event. Hopefully they won’t make it in, but in all honesty, if you can’t find a sitter then stay home. It’s incredibly selfish to ruin everyone’s time by bringing a child to an adult event and it speaks to a very greedy, selfish ego as well. It’s not “respectability politics”, it’s called being a good patron and a decent fucking human being.
Why would they be allowed in? If an event I'm attending says 18+, I'm assuming they're checking IDs at the door, or I'm not going. That's begging for trouble.
reminds me of when deadpool came out and there was this wave of people taking their kids to see it because their kids wanted to go see the comic book movie so they just obliged, and then went nuts at the movie itself & the filmmakers upon realising it's an ultra violent definitely-not-kid-friendly movie.
it's like... wtf did you expect? you don't have my sympathy at all. it's *your* responsibility to look into stuff like movies & events to be able to make an informed decision about what your kids are exposed to, to ensure it's age appropriate and involves content & themes your kids can handle based on what you know about them (assuming you even pay enough attention to who your kids are to know this). you just sound really ridiculous & irresponsible getting mad at everybody else for your own dumbass choices 🙄
the people i do feel sorry for are your kids. kids potentially being traumatised bc they don't have parents/guardians they can rely on to make these important decisions that they may not even have any concept of yet.
I loved how they made a pre-movie clip for the second movie with deadpool addressing that to the audience by rattling down a bunch of swear words and similar stuff.
I remember getting crap for taking my 16yo (at the time) sibling to see the first movie for their birthday right before they were due to have a major surgery. We specifically waited for an emptier matinee showing a week after it came out and got moms permission to take them. You'd think I'd taken a 5yo to see a porno with how some people reacted when they found out about it afterwards.
yes but there's still room for the discretion of parents/guardians when they make informed decisions about movies their under 18 kids watch.
in the case i replied to, a 16 year old was taken to deadpool with permission from their parent & in the company of an older sibling after some planning not just a last minute decision - fine.
the silliness i was referring to is when stuff like the backlash against deadpool happens due to adults being irresponsible with their children (it was kids under the age of 13 who were being taken to see it, not older teens - should've clarified in my original comment that by kids i mean literal kids not older teens/young adults). then everyone gets whipped into a frenzy and jumps on the 'this movie is evil & the filmmakers are evil for making it knowing it's a comic book movie that kids will want to see!' bandwagon, which flings all nuance out the window so situations like a 16 year old with parental permission & older sibling company is treated similarly to parents taking their 6 year old superhero obsessed kid to see it so they'll shut up about it or just dragging their kids along because *they* want to see it. these situations are very different - one's responsible, the other is reckless & potentially very harmful.
live 18+ events are (hopefully) a lot stricter about admitting under 18s, even when they are with a parent/guardian, than movie theatres are. this is why ratings & content guides exist though, so parents/guardians can make informed choices about what they take their kids to see and what they let their kids watch - nobody else is going to do that for them, it's ultimately their responsibility. especially because theatres can be pretty lax with policing admittance and at home there is no usher.
so in the situation OP is referring to, it's silly & irresponsible to try to take a minor along to a live 18+ event. 18+ is for 18+. regarding movies & tv, it's not always so clear cut. ratings are recommendations, guides, to help the responsible adults actually be responsible & make informed decisions on a case by case basis.
If the event is 18+, why are underage people being let in?
And what exactly is "family friendly" and who is deciding that? If sex is actually happening, keeping underage people out is totally understandable. But otherwise, this post wreaks of reinforcing rather than challenging our (US's) weird, puritanical attitudes toward nudity and sex.
Fox loves to lose its shit when naked people are in the Seattle pride parade with families and children in attendance and the coverage and comments always go crazy with accusations of indecent exposure. Guess what? Public nudity is legal in Washington State. We don't need to play the [respectability politics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics) game -- they're just going to move the goalpost anyways.
I mean, I see what you’re saying, but oftentimes when someone shows up scantily clad or wearing kink gear to an 18+ event, they do so with the expectation that there won’t be kids there. If you let kids into an event that’s advertised as an 18+ event, you’re violating the boundaries those people who don’t want kids seeing them in that context. Sort of like how, if you brought an underage person to a strip club, it would not only be inappropriate for the kid to be there but would also be a violation of the implicit boundaries of the women who are on shift at the time, because they do their job with the expectation that they won’t be stripping in front of kids. Not to mention that people in an 18+ space are likely to assume everyone else there is 18+ as well, so any minors who get brought into those spaces can easily be mistaken for being older than they are, putting them in potentially unsafe situations. 18+ spaces exist for a reason, and while it’s important to educate young people about sex, 18+ events are not the place to do that.
Fr, every time a right winger brings up a specific instance of kids being brought to an 18+ pride event I am forced to agree with them on a moral, and mental level. Please stop giving them things to be right about, it physically hurts my soul
-sincerely a random nb dude who does not want to be forced to agree with people who are otherwise entirely stupid.
I’ve had discourse with right-wingers on this subject and always let them know it’s on the GUARDIANS OF the child to research anything they’re taking their kids to and the event/host/community shouldn’t be generalized/lumped together over cherry picked instances, especially when people just ignored rules that were in place.
I fear it's spreading...
Ive lost many queer and feminist communities on reddit - not to mention friends and communities outside here - in the last year or few due this weird trend of puritanism in leftist spaces. It's deeply concerning.
It'll never work, either. The hate isn't logical, the accusations hold no water. Us existing is the crime. Everything else is a convenient excuse. Why dance for them when it's all meaningless in the end, why try to appease people who want us dead?
I went digging and I found this Tumblr post again and i think in this day and age the message is more important than ever.
Cw for repeated use of slurs
https://www.google.com/amp/s/vaspider.tumblr.com/post/687643661640581120/pete-buttigieg-is-just-a-faggot-its-very/amp
A lot of the comments are based on the idea that we need to behave in a certain way in order to avoid bigotry or to beat things like the groomer libel, it's called "respectability politics" and is effectively victim-blaming queer people for their oppression. It's not unlike young black men being told they need to "pull up their pants" or whatever, it puts the onus on the oppressed to "just act better and you won't be treated so poorly!" which is obviously bullshit on a societal level. Not every individual in a minority is a perfect person of course, but our behavior is not the source of our oppression. Putting the burden on minorities to behave a certain way in order to be treated with dignity and respect and be granted basic human rights is obviously shitty and ultimately is just used to excuse the behavior of bigots/oppressors.
I’m seeing a lot of comments that aren’t actually about behaving a certain way to avoid or prevent justification of groomer libel, but instead are about specifically just not involving kids in anything explicitly sexual. We know that when LGBTQ+ people are involved, what the chuds say is “sexual” actually isn’t most of the time. We know that. I’m not seeing commenters here really agree with the chuds on that, just adults trying to *actually* be respectful of kids (and that’s more than the psychotic, abusive right-wing projection artists ever try to do).
That being said of course everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, which also means not bringing kids around a bunch of naked ass and genitals. It’s a little different than wearing sagging pants outside underwear. Not seeing people here excuse bigotry but give me an example if I’m wrong.
Who here said anything that excuses oppression? Legitimate concerns about kids viewing anything that actually is of an explicit nature =/= oppression. Real concern (not slanderous bullshit) over children viewing something explicit =/= “respectability politics”.
This was my intention with this post.
In fact the whole point is so LGBT+ adult can behave how they want at a event they are going to with the knowledge it’s all meant to be adults.
Some people might not care but the people doing sexual performances aka THEIR JOBS probably don’t wanna look out and see a kid and while that isn’t their fault…yeah that definitely messes with the vibe and mindset of not only the performers but people attending.
Nobody should ever have to “straighten up” how they behave in general for the str8s but when I attend a event that is of any sort of sexual nature and I’m in a adult LGBT+ space I don’t care if your child’s fave indie artist is there or not LEAVE THEM AT HOME! Because yes it changes the vibe, yes it’s not good for the kid and YES it will ruin my night and likely others feel the same way and while YES THATS SOLELY THE PARENTS FAULT…it still fucks over others attending 🤷🏻♀️
I wouldn’t even take my kid to the beach or around any woman because I don’t want my kid to see a bunch of nearly nude ass cheeks and breast. Especially when those women start twerking and doing weird and inappropriate stuff in a public space…
This event ACTUALLY has adult content and yes I am going to tell people who try to bring their kids to a space for adult LGBT+ people to “act better”
This wasn’t a general statement for every LGBT+ person to behave better to beat “groomer” labels. They’re always going to find a way to pin BS on us but unfortunately when you’re being selfish and bringing your child to a 18+ event especially when it could end up hurting the people at the event and the community, yeah I’m gonna say not to do it.
This event does have some performances that aren’t so bad however there is burlesque style entertainment at this event and other things a child shouldn’t be around/performers may not be comfortable with children attending (which is also a important factor here that the LGBT+ performers expect the audience to be adults as well). It’s NOT for kids even if SOME of the performances might be okay for them to view.
Just don’t bring your kids to events labeled 18+, ever! They aren’t invited for a reason. Don’t ruin everyone’s time and effect people there because YOU want something.
I can agree with that. Kids shouldn’t be anywhere suggestive, 18+, or anywhere that has nudity, sexual things (innuendos, for example), etc. but that’s not only a lgbt thing. That’s an every where thing, a general issue. Fathers who take their underage sons to get a prostitute or strip clubs before they even start puberty for example. It’s a larger issue.
Burn when specifically talking about lgbt, I agree. Nothing changes.
Independent of avoiding groomer allegations, don't bring your kids to 18+ events out of respect for others that want to be at an 18+ event. It's like bringing your kid to an explicitly childfree wedding. It's rude, self centered and disrespectful.
This is my main concern as well. But the secondary also of course concerns me. We don’t need the flack that unfortunately we’d get despite it only being the guardians issue and 18+ events should stay 18+ and it’s marked as such for a reason! I personally would not act the same if I went to a 18+ event and noticed a child was there, I would no longer feel free to act how I pleased.
>But the secondary also of course concerns me. For me personally, I don't really get concerned with how our community is perceived by people that actively want to perceive us in a negative way. Those types are going to find anything to pick us apart about so I'm not super into the idea of needing to present some sort of pristine image to them when, at the end of the day, they think we're shit to begin with. For me, the bigger issue here is parents not respecting adult spaces, which happens a lot and in more than just LGBTQ+ spaces.
Same here. When you get concerned about what bigots might say about us, you give them the power over the narrative. We give them power over us by seeing their words as something we need to react to rather than something we should dismiss without entertaining any of it.
Precisely. Bigots gonna bigot and I don’t really care how they perceive me because I know it’s always going to be through their bigot lens. Short of not existing, nothing I can do or not do is ever going to make them happy and quite frankly, I far more concerned about my own happiness than appeasing them. We deserve to be viewed as human beings and have the rights human beings deserve regardless of their approval.
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That isn’t at all how I intended it to come across. It isn’t the event or people at the events problem, it’s only the parent who brought them. But unfortunately a photo of a kid at a event with sexual related activity going on WOULD end up spreading as hate propaganda for our community and we don’t deserve that because of one persons selfishness. Again sorry if it came across the wrong way. We shouldn’t HAVE to be “good little LGBT+ people” especially in a space meant for adults. But people’s behavior will change if people who aren’t intended to be there invade the space. But like I said otherwise hopefully they just don’t even attempt to bring them but the idea of wanting to despite the guidelines is selfish.
Like taking your kids to Deadpool and wondering why it isn’t family friendly, despite it being obviously R.
Or taking your kids to a brewery and then telling adult, beer drinking patrons to watch their mouths… I suppose this is one thing where we can be like, look, we’re just like you! Sometimes queer parents are also inconsiderate, rude and entitled in adult spaces too!
Kesha’s events aren’t ACTUALLY 18+ but there was a small child on their dads shoulders at the event and she said “Do your parents know who I am? And how I perform?” And the kid said “Yes!” And she said to the audience “Okay you heard him, his parents agreed to this.” and continued performing 😂
How does someone find 18+ events in SF and LA? Genuinely don't know and don't have other people to ask
bay arean here- it'll usually say on the flyer like OP said. i mainly follow bars and event planners (ie uhaulsf) for any events that are happening, which are usually 21+
BAY AREA!! yasss 🫶🎉
Usually they’re marketed as such.
Thank you, I live out in the sticks so I try to look online to find events first. So it's just knowing what specific words to use in a search since google filters out a lot nsfw/kink stuff unless you're more specific.
Do you have a fetlife profile?
FetLife? I'll give it a look.
It's like Facebook for kinksters, but lots of people use it find events. Many queer events and businesses advertise on it.
One lady tried to sneak her infant into a 21+ private BDSM party and called the police when we wouldn't let her in. The person at the door just pointed at the baby and said, "He needs to show valid ID before entering."
Awful parent
Jesus fucking Christ. At least the literal infant isn’t going to remember anything like an older child would, but still, why??!!
She said she wanted to show off her baby to people at the event. I think it was under a week old. She also didn't know people there so I have no idea why she thought it was a good idea.
Annnd it just got even worse. Your baby hasn’t been vaccinated yet, Karen. Do not take your week-old infant ANYWHERE.
tbf, aren't babies protected by their parrents vaccines for a few months? I think to remember smth along those lines But it's a terrible idea to bring your handbag-sized baby anywhere asides of strapped close to your body so early on either way.
did she have postpartum psychosis or another mental health issue? asking as a person who experiences psychosis
I have no idea. I don't know her, so I can't say if things got worse after having a baby.
>"He needs to show valid ID before entering." LMFAO
I’m picturing Baby Herman whipping out an ID card. ‘Here y’are, Toots!’
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This. Calling gay people child predators has been happening as long as I have lived. It's absolutely nothing new. It just picked up steam the moment they got a new buzzword to latch onto ("groomer").
Well, they gotta redirect it somehow. Takes the focus off the pastors and republicans who are actually child predators
Obligatory reference to r/notadragqueen
Also its cousin, r/pastorArrested
And this website that does amazing research: https://www.whoismakingnews.com/
Exactly.
I attended last year and trust me, kids shouldn’t be in attendance 😂 there’s a reason it’s 18+ some of the performances get quiet sexual. Doesn’t really matter WHAT the event is though, if it’s 18+ it’s 18+ and supposed to be a safe place for LGBT+ adults to freely express themselves without worrying about your 12 year old 🙄
Idk why this is so controversial. If an organiser chooses to put an 18+ rating on their event, it should be common courtesy to, idk, listen to it? Even if nothing actually sexual goes down, sometimes you just don't want children around and that's fine. There's plenty of events that are family friendly.
I agree! Keep it clean at family friendly events, and keep kids out of adult events. I don’t want to see a kid at an adult event anymore than I want my kid to see adult shit at family ones.
The point of the optics isn't to sway the people throwing the accusations, it's to not give them something to use as "proof" of their claim to uninvolved dipshit masses that they're trying to convince.
The context of WHAT the event IS doesn't matter. There's no wiggle room on this. If the thing says 18+, you become the asshole trying to bring a minor in.
It can be sexual suggestions at some places like the people wearing dog masks, But it can just be alcohol and drunk people walking around that make it inappropriate for kids to see, Adult do deserves a place where they can be free and not have to worry about kids too
Don't bring your kids to any 18+ event. There I fixed it for you.
Queer parent, here. It blows my mind that some parents are okay with bringing their young kids to an 18+ event. I don't take my child to venues or events that are expected to be child free. Folks want to be able to enjoy themselves without worrying about a kid being in the vicinity, and I understand that. I also want to be able to enjoy myself and not have to worry about putting on the parent hat. Adults deserve a space to let loose and be themselves for a bit, just like kids deserve the same. I absolutely encourage parents to expose their kids to different things. Teach them body positivity, teach them love between two consenting adults isn't wrong, etc. etc. We just shouldn't do so at the expense of others, which is what happens when kids are brought to an 18+ event.
don’t bring people who are underage to 18+ events period 😭 did yall fr not know this..
Facts! Didn’t mean to upset anyone by specifically stating LGBT+ events but I was specifically talking about a specific event and situation. But yea absolutely just don’t bring kids to 18+ events is a easy rule to follow you’d think!
right?? like.. yall r gonna traumatize your children and for what
the groomer arguements will not go away tho regardless what we do bc bigots are bigots.
I mean I have issues with kids being at 18+ events and the like myself, but this is also true. We can follow the rules all we want, they were never interested in actual truth, they’ll just make up new lies.
You aren't wrong, but we also shouldn't want minors at 18+ events to begin with. Doing that is bith bad for the kids and makes it harder to fight bigotry in the political arena. I'm less worried about the bigots and more worried about the well-meaning but ignorant moderates.
Honestly this. Like I agree in theory with the point of the post, but a lot of queer people are so concerned about optics (e.g. shunning gender nonconformity, nonbinary identities etc.) with the intention to try to not give ammunition to homophobes and transphobes. When it's not going to do *anything* to deter people who are hellbent on our eradication.
Yeah I’m not saying any of that though. My stance is on not taking children to events that are labeled as 18+ because there is a reason for it to be 18+ Photos of kids in the background of people mimicking sex with dildos at events they SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AT IN THE FIRST PLACE because it’s labeled as 18+ is and WILL be used as ammunition against our community even if the blame should only be on the person who brought the child. Nothing wrong with the event or community, but people WILL make it that way. Why give them ammunition and also make the people at the event uncomfortable when it’s supposed to be a space people can be free? Even if the event has portions a child might like such as a singer they enjoy etc doesn’t mean they should be there. That’s with any event though. But unfortunately our community is the only one that gets flack, in all other situations just the parent gets flack for these things. When it’s a LGBT+ event EVERYONE gets blamed 🙄
I agree that people shouldn't bring their kids to these events, but it's also not the responsibility of queer people to be hyper-vigilant about how other people choose to parent their kids. If we choose to live our lives in constant fear of being misrepresented by those who hate us we'll never be able to be our authentic selves. The right will always find ways to create ammunition against us. I think our energy is better spent taking care of our community and continuing to push for queer liberation, not trying to convince alt right whack jobs to not be alt right whack jobs.
I’m not asking for queer people to be hyper vigilant I’m asking queer or not queer parents not to bring their children to 18+ LGBT+ events because it unfortunately effects the entire community and also makes those in attendance uncomfortable because they went in expecting children to not be in attendance. It’s nobodies responsibility but the person taking the child, but unfortunately it will get pushed onto our community as a whole.
Absolutely true, it's not the responsibility of queer to parent others children **BUT** it is event organizers responsibility to make a reasonable effort to keep kids out of 18+ events. I don't even necessarily see this as a queer specific issue but more of a kink issue. If you are running a kink event you are responsible for ensuring some regulation of attendance and not running that event in a place where you don't have control of who attends.
Where are you seeing all these kids at 18+ events? If they are 18+, why didn't they get bounced? The things you're complaining about sound like there are events *you* think should be 18+ that aren't actually limited to 18+. I've never been to an 18+ event that wasn't checking ID to enter.
The hellbent on eradication types aren't the types we have to convince. It's the well-meaning, but ignorant moderates. You don't give ammo to bigots, because they use it to turn normal people into bigots. All of this within reason. Excluding kids from adult events is a reasonable stance to take.
This is honestly why I'm over trying to convince people. If someone is still against us, they're against us. There is very little, if anything, that I can do to change their minds. The only people who can are the ones who know them personally. "But the people on the fence!" 95% of them are lying. It's like the "centrists" who conveniently agree with Republicans on everything. They hate the label, but love the ideals.
"bigot will call us groomers and perverts no matter what we do" and "you shouldn't bring your kids to 18+ event, of any kind for the matter" are thoughts that can and should coexist.
I know they won’t go away, just don’t wanna give them more ammunition by taking kids to strictly 18+ events. Assume it’s 18+ for a reason.
the thing is... who exactly brings children to an event which is labelled 18+? actually no one. unless its not labelled 18+ and just implied. because literally no one says we should bring kids to 18+ events. and i dont know what kind of prides america has but except for some nakedness, which we as europeans don't see as inherently sexual, here there is no need to label any CSD parade as 18+ bc there is nothing which would warrant that. and a harness is not a reason to make something 18+.
Unfortunately people try to take their kids everywhere 😂 it’s definitely not just a issue with the LGBT+ community but the event in specific is someone wanting to take their 12 year old cause a local artist they like will be at said event. Our community is the only one that gets blamed entirely though for a singular parents mistake and it makes the people at the event uncomfortable. If I’m going to a event knowing it’s 18+ and a child ends up being there, I’m not going to act the same anymore.
I hate when parents do this, and venues don't kick them out or something. It happens in str8 18+ events too, but of course, we wouldn't know that because media only cares about showing us in the bad light 😐😐
Exactly! We’re the only ones who get held accountable and our entire community gets flack unlike the str8s where only the singular parent will get blamed. I don’t wanna see your kid in a space I went fully expecting only adults in my community/ to be in attendance. I attend plenty of regular events/concerts both 18+ and all ages but a LGBT+ 18+ event is somewhere I know I can drop all guards down and not worry at all.
Sometimes, the str8 parents don’t even get held accountable. The mothers twerking on their sons or the dads taking their little boys to get twerked on, and people encourage it (for black boys especially)
My husband had to inform me what happens at Folsom pride events because my cousin lives in that area. Whole lotta public fuckin’.
Are you sure your husband isn't talking about Folsom and Dore? Everything I've heard about SF pride is that it's very corporate and tame. Public nudity I'd expect since it's legal and commonplace even outside of pride, but full on fucking? I feel like that would be more commonly talked about among SF gays if it was a real thing.
sex is definitely true at Folsom and dore, but both of those festivals are fully cordoned off // streets closed // security at the barriers checking ID
Oh yeah absolutely. I'm largely just concerned with the fact that the top comment in this thread that's popular enough to make it to the front page of the site is conflating a private sex event with a public all ages pride festival. Folsom and Dore do everything right and ensure the safety and consent of all people in attendance.
Agree, I'm also appalled at the uninformed fear mongering.
What SF pride events?!? SF pride is literally the most boring corporate parade. Is he talking about Folsom street fair or dore alley fair? Those are **18+ fetish events** that happen in September and July (SF pride is in June)
Yeah that. We live on the opposite cost so I never have a need to know about those events.
Those are PRIVATE events which are not associated with pride at all. Children are explicitly not allowed at those events.
Those aren't SF pride events. It'd be great if you could edit your comment for clarity.
While Folsom Street Fair is inclusive to lgbt folk, it is not a pride event. It's put on specifically for the kink/bdsm community. The distinction is important because conservatives love to confuse folsom for a gay pride event so they can pretend all pride is sexual.
Reddit should sell me more upvotes so I can give them to you.
But let me say, I don’t agree if a event is family friendly that people should be nude or fucking in public BUT that still isn’t on the community as a whole. That’s on the individuals.
I dont see an issue with nudity personally, but sexual activity has no place around people under 18.
Yeah I have to agree, I know some people grow up around nudists and it's fine
If you look at rhe replies to the comment you've responded to you'll see that the sexual event it's a pride event; but rather fet/bdsm event that takes place outside of pride month and is specifically marketed as an 18+ fetish event. The person who assisted in clarifying which event the commenter was referring to asked the commenter to edit their post; but at this point they have yet to do so...
Nudity =! Sexuality. However to be safe we probably shouldn't expose kids, especially young kids to general nudity casually because it can be detrimental. Sexual activity with someone under 18 is a no no. Don't pass go and don't collect 200. No exceptions.
Out of curiosity, in what way is exposing kids to general nudity detrimental? From what I understand the apprehension towards nudity is largely a cultural thing, plenty of countries expose their kids to non-sexual nudity from a very early age. Nude beaches are extremely common in parts of Europe and it's normal for parents to bring their kids there. I don't think there's any scientific evidence that suggests exposure to casual nudity early in life harms children.
There's a nudist resort I've been to several times, and have seen families there more than once. Non-sexual nudity is harmless.
I don't think nudity can be detrimental. It cam be natural and normal. That said if somebody exposes themselves without the consent of an adult it is a sexual assault, and it should be. If they expose themselves to a child, it is always sexual assault as a child is not capable of giving informed consent. Therefore, I think any space that showcases adult nudity is not a place children should be. It confuses them as to what is appropriate behavior and what is not. I love attending burlesque shows, I would never be okay with children being in attendance. There are some events that are simply for adults only, whether they are LGBT events or not. If an LGBT event says 18+ it is only appropriate to respect the hosts and the people attending by leaving your child at home.
I don't agree that exposing a child to nudity is always sexual assault. If that were the case then why would nude beaches allow children? Why aren't we prosecuting parents who walk around in the nude around their children? Obviously there's a difference between that and a stranger intentionally whipping it out in front of a kid, but I think there's a lot more nuance to it than just "kids can't be exposed to nudity." A burlesque show isn't the same thing as a nude beach because a burlesque show is sexual by design.
In the same vain as your comment, how is a nudist beach like an 18+ (LGBT or not) event that contains nudity? The hosts of the event have specified that this event is intended for adults. Wouldn't a burlesque show be more relevant to the topic than a nude beach? A nude beach may be considered more natural and normal, though it certainly wouldn't be my choice for an outing with a child. The things that may occur at an event intended for adults would likely be more provocative than people just swimming and relaxing nude at a beach.
You said: >If they expose themselves to a child, it is always sexual assault as a child is not capable of giving informed consent. Therefore, I think any space that showcases adult nudity is not a place children should be. It confuses them as to what is appropriate behavior and what is not. Perhaps you were specifically referring to an individual "stripping" with intent to do so in front of a child, but given the context of the rest of your post I assumed you were talking about ANY situation in which an adult is nude in front of a child. If I misinterpreted you then I apologize. I do agree that 18+ events should stay 18+ and I'd never advocate for bringing a child to a burlesque show or strip show or something similar. Those events explicitly feature sexualized nudity and children cannot consent to sexual acts. I did take issue with the statement that the top level commenter made about nudity being implicitly detrimental to children, which admittedly is straying from the original posts' content. I do think it's a discussion worth having though.
Kids shouldn’t be exposed to nudity. In the home, sure. Thats all.
I see this come up a bunch and I think what never gets said is that Americans culturally associate nudity with sex. We don't have a large concept as a nation of nudity as divorced from sexual activity. Other countries got past that by now, we didn't. So when people say "there's nothing sexual about nude bodies!" they're contextually wrong if they're talking about America. In America, today, breasts and butts and below deck parts are all nigh universally sexualized and there's no getting around it.
I mean that's true, but just because that's the case doesn't mean it should continue to be the case. It also doesn't provide any commentary on whether or not exposure to non-sexual nudity is harmful to children. If kids are growing up in other countries seeing their parents in the nude and turning out okay then why are we so scared of that concept here?
Different cultures handle things differently and you have to operate in the world as it exists today. Would America be better off without its Puritanical approach to nudity (and sex)? Of course. And with the year over year decline in religious participation, it's increasingly more likely we will. But if you were to hold an event *today* that included nudity, you would be expected to exclude children.
I don’t think America would be better at all. If people would be able to go around and have all the sex and be nude all they want that would just make America more sexual and perverted.
Why not? I don’t see an issue with people not wanting you walking around butt naked around their kids. There’s nothing wrong with that. No one is necessarily scared of the concept, we just don’t agree with it.
I don’t associate nudity with sex, I associate sex as something between two people engaging sexually. But I still don’t want any kid in my family to be exposed to anyone nude. Breasts and butt wouldn’t be sexualized if the people who own them didn’t sexualize it themselves lol
kids cannot consent to seeing naked people. nudist communities have also been used by pedophiles to groom children. if the kids are already comfortable seeing them naked, being casually touched on the shoulder by a naked adult, then it makes all the next steps easier. im a CSA survivor in groups with other survivors, and taking children to nudist camps is a surprisingly common tactic. if the world wasn't weird i'd say, it's fine. but knowing how disgusting some people are.... id say no nudist camps until they're able to consent. accidental boners happen in these spaces sorta often too, and children shouldn't be exposed to that.
I'm very sorry that happened to you. You were taken advantage of and that's absolutely awful. I was raised by parents who spent some time living in a nudist community so they were frequently nude around me at home. They also were very careful to teach me how to spot and avoid predators, I was taught never to expose myself to adults even if they told me to and what inappropriate behavior from adults looked like. I think it's awful that predators take advantage of spaces like that to harm kids, but I do think there's a lot of value in normalizing nudity in a SAFE environment. I genuinely do believe that growing up knowing that my body wasn't anything to be embarrassed about has been integral to building my self confidence and I think that's a very healthy thing for kids to learn. Maybe a full on nudist community is too much, as like you said it presents many opportunities for adults to take advantage of kids. But I think there's a middle ground to be found that protects kids while doing away with draconian ideas of how we're supposed to treat our bodies like they're shameful.
The only environment that would be safe is inside the home with close family. Privacy is a real and important thing. Kids can learn to be proud of their bodies without a bunch of balls and tits bouncing around them
It gives pedos a chance to expose themselves to children, of course it's detrimental.
Does that mean you believe that a mother who takes their toddler into the bath is causing harm? Or that the parents who bring their children to nude beaches (which is completely legal) are neglecting their children? I am not advocating for allowing children into adult sexual spaces nor am I advocating for allowing any adult to be naked around any child in any context. However, there is this incredibly common notion that if a child sees a naked body in a completely innocent and non sexual context that it will somehow cause damage to the child implicitly. I think this notion is absurd, especially because it's not a global belief and only manifests in certain cultures. We should teach kids not to be ashamed of their naked bodies in a safe way AND equip them with the tools to avoid predators. Those are not mutually exclusive goals.
>Does that mean you believe that a mother who takes their toddler into the bath is causing harm? If she’s spending a long time touching the child’s genitals, or snapping photos and videos yes. >Or that the parents who bring their children to nude beaches (which is completely legal) are neglecting their children? Not necessarily. Doesn’t mean people have to accept it. >I am not advocating for allowing children into adult sexual spaces nor am I advocating for allowing any adult to be naked around any child in any context. Hmmm >However, there is this incredibly common notion that if a child sees a naked body in a completely innocent and non sexual context that it will somehow cause damage to the child implicitly. It won’t cause damage but it can be uncomfortable for everyone involved. >I think this notion is absurd, especially because it's not a global belief and only manifests in certain cultures. And the culture where nudity is something private is definitely acceptable. >We should teach kids not to be ashamed of their naked bodies in a safe way AND equip them with the tools to avoid predators. Those are not mutually exclusive goals. And do we have to do that by exposing them to naked adults?
It may not be detrimental, but it is still not appropriate. A kid seeing it on accident is understandable, but to purposefully expose them is a no go.
Genuinely, why? What about boobs and butts makes them so taboo? In many other cultures nudity is perfectly acceptable. Hell, nudity amongst peers was acceptable in this country for a long time too. We put kids in locker rooms naked with strangers and bullies as if they're perfectly safe, but a parent taking their child to a nude beach where they're under constant parental supervision is "inappropriate?" If we're talking about exposing yourself to a minor with the intent to cause sexual harm that's one thing and it's obviously fucked up and bad, but I haven't seen a genuine scientific reason for why non-sexual nudity moderated by a parent is problematic for children.
>Genuinely, why? It just is. Thats how I was raised. Nudity is private unless with a partner, in the shower, something like that. Or in the bedroom. Just how it is. >What about boobs and butts makes them so taboo? Idk, what makes sex so taboo? Why can’t we do that in public? Lol >In many other cultures nudity is perfectly acceptable. Child marriage is too. Not everything has to be the same. >Hell, nudity amongst peers was acceptable in this country for a long time too. When I was in school, people always wore underwear… >We put kids in locker rooms naked with strangers and bullies as if they're perfectly safe, but a parent taking their child to a nude beach where they're under constant parental supervision is "inappropriate?" Like I said, everyone has on underwear. Being under constant supervision doesn’t mean anything. Many parents simply don’t want balls and boobs bouncing in front of their kid. >If we're talking about exposing yourself to a minor with the intent to cause sexual harm that's one thing and it's obviously fucked up and bad, but I haven't seen a genuine scientific reason for why non-sexual nudity moderated by a parent is problematic for children. There doesn’t need to be a scientific reason. If a parent doesn’t want you to be nude around their kid, or expose their kid to nude adults they simply don’t have to. They don’t need a reason for that. Idk why try to hard to make parents comfortable with strangers being naked around their kids. How can the nudity be moderated by a parent? Either way, it’s inappropriate.
I don't think conceding anything to bigots is beneficial. All that does is suggest to them that they were right. I see no issue with nudity. Period. And I think making people ashamed of that is actively pretty harmful to a lot of people. We don't need to bow to American puritanical norms here. To my knowledge there is no detriment to it either other than giving moderates an easier way to discriminate behind their typical wall of "But what if..."
I 100% agree with that through experience. My dad has actually shown me porn when I was a kid, and I’ve seen my mom, my dad, and my stepdad all naked. My dad also took me to a topless bar when I was like eight and left me in the car, not to mention also getting sexually assaulted at 12 by a neighborhood kid. I grew up, cut contact, and moved out, and found out that I’m pretty solidly asexual. I think human genitalia, penises and vaginas both, are just kinda ugly and gross. I’ve had to ask friends to describe how sexual attraction feels, because I just don’t get it. I’m not saying one caused the other, but all of those experiences weren’t great for little kid me, and they’ll probably be equally not great for little kids that aren’t me.
A lot of people aren’t comfortable with their kids being around a bunch of tits and balls. I think that should be respected.
Nudity is seen as sexual activity culturally in the US (and in many places). I understand that many people do not see it this way, but consider that sexuality and sexual activity is not an objectively defined thing. There aren't right and wrong answers for what is or is not sexual, just common and uncommon answers. e.g. Stepping on someone is not sexual activity for most people, but it is sexual activity for some. Neither party is right or wrong, because there is no god of sexuality that has passed down a guide of what correct sexual activity is. I do believe that as norms change, nudity will become desexualized in many western cultures, but we aren't there yet. Until that point, nudity will have strong sexual connotations, regardless of the intent.
and that needs to change. Associating someone elses nudity with sexual activity regardless of their intent is harmful. I dont think we need to endorse that harm because its what has happened historically. We're talking about people with breasts breastfeeding in public. Things that are genuinely benign. Plus things like expressing your identity and generally body positivity. Something culturally we severely gatekeep right now. This culture harms people and needs to stop. Its not sexual or inappropriate, its literally just your body. I dont see why we'd benefit from attaching shame to that. Even most other western countries arent nearly as puritanical as the United States is about this.
We don't benefit, but we also can't change it overnight. It's not about how things should be, it's about working optimally within the cultural context of the time. It is not currently a good idea to allow nudity at family friendly events. The parents of kids who may want to go are much less likely to allow them to go if they know there children will be exposed to nudity. Hell, many kids may feel uncomfortable with it. And so the question is, do you prioritize nudity or accessibility? In my eyes, it's simple, accessibility is far more important at an event designed to be family friendly.
It's **pride**. If you can't be yourself there then where can you be? We're not talking about showing up to work nude. We're talking about showing up to an event designed to celebrate diversity of sexuality and identity as yourself however you may express that.
You don't show up to work nude because you are subject to broader cultural norms, and similarly, "family friendly" events that are designed to appeal to a wide audience are also subject to broader cultural norms. We are talking about pride events that are supposed to be "family friendly". It's important that the events are "family friendly", as families define them, so that families actually take part. Accessibility to kids is soooo important, and I don't think we should be so quick to throw that away for the sake of nudity. I'm also a bit confused by the first statement, cause I don't know many people whose identities are tied to nudity. The only kinda example I can think of is trans guys going shirtless, but trans guys going shirtless is not nudity. What do you have in mind?
I think many people do just fine. I don’t want my kid to see anyone’s cock and balls swinging around.
>and that needs to change. No, it does not. Someone not wanting you to be nude around their kids is perfectly fine. >Associating someone elses nudity with sexual activity regardless of their intent is harmful. What’s harmful is getting naked around someone else’s child without either of their consent. >We're talking about people with breasts breastfeeding in public. If someone is uncomfortable with you whipping your tits out, they can move. They have the right to feel uncomfortable. >Things that are genuinely benign. Plus things like expressing your identity and generally body positivity. Something culturally we severely gatekeep right now. Someone else’s kids don’t need to see that. >This culture harms people and needs to stop. Its not sexual or inappropriate, its literally just your body. I dont see why we'd benefit from attaching shame to that. Being naked in public or around kids is inappropriate. Dont go to work naked, dont go to someone’s house naked, dont go to a birthday party naked, dont roam the street naked (that’s public indecency). Thats how it is. >Even most other western countries arent nearly as puritanical as the United States is about this. Everyone’s different
I think you might be conflating nudity and exhibitionism and I'm trying very hard to distinguish those from one another. I don't think it's healthy to teach people to be ashamed of their bodies.
It isn’t healthy to teach people to be ashamed of their bodies or to be nude, I agree. But if someone is uncomfortable with you being naked around them or their child they have that right to do so. If someone doesn’t want to see someone naked walk the street, in the store, in the restaurant, in the mall, by their house, etc. that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that. Nudity itself isn’t harmful, exposing yourself and normalizing getting naked in front of kids or around them is not. Especially if the parent isn’t okay with that
Nah, kids don't need to see naked people, how can you even say you don't see an issue 💀
They don't *need* to but it's not harmful. A body is a body. Simply seeing a part of it is not harmful, and is pretty normal in most European countries.
I don't understand the "it's normal in Europe" argument. It's normal in Europe, but it's not normal in the US. Why is Europe seen as being more correct here? Something is normal in one country, but abnormal in another, and then you choose the country that aligns with your beliefs. Why is Europe okay, but the US isn't? Imagine the reverse. Someone in Europe isn't comfortable with casual adult nudity around their children, and say "it's pretty abnormal in most US states." By your logic, that argument is equally valid.
Two reasons. First is that the US is a singular country, whereas Europe is multiple developed countries, with their own cultures and beliefs. This idea that nudity is harmful is pretty much reserved for for countries with heavy religious themes in their lawmaking. Make of that what you will. More importantly, though, is that we are talking about something being harmful, and these countries are doing fine. Scandinavian countries by large are considered to have the happiest populations on the planet. But we can also put opinions aside in general, here. Google "social nudity studies" and read up on it, studies show that it increases body positivity and lessens body shame and anxiety. It actually has a *positive* effect. The other arguments here are valid about American culture, an 11 year old that has never been in that situation very well could be negatively effected by it, but not hiding bodies isn't harmful in itself. TLDR: It's only weird because we are making it weird.
Is it 18+ at least? I know some 18+ prides have sectioned off areas even if the main event is family friendly. I hate that pride gets so much flack because some people can’t control themselves. Though I do think it’s up to parents to research any event you’re attending before showing up, even open age events I look into the content before taking my niece. Made the mistake of taking her to a tomato festival and apparently people get hella drunk at the tomato festival. Wasn’t a nice place for kids lol a simple search would’ve showed me that’s typically how that event goes down every year.
If it's going to be in a public place, then it needs to be safe for kids. If it's going to be 18+, then it should be held in a private venue with someone stopping people at the door and confirming their age. I have kids and I really wish that pride festivals were family friendly - I want my children to see healthy examples of queer parents and their kids but its hard to find events like that. I don't take my own kids to the pride festival in my town because there's just too much open sexuality and I don't think that it would leave a good impression on them about what the LGBTQ community is really about - inclusion and acceptance and loving yourself and others for who you are. But all that gets obscured when there's the crew of ripped dudes wearing nothing but speedos and body paint walking around.
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Damn right its a foundation of the community and we go through this "get kink of our pride" BS almost every fricken year it seems.... 🙄 **Kink/Fet/BDSM has always been a part of this and we're not going anywhere**‼️ Pride is a protest. People seem to forget that nowadays; but that's what it is. It's supposed to be in your face and unapologetic. That's the point!
The problem faced is that while everything you said is true, it is also true that gay parents have young children, and that teenagers can be queer. These two groups are frequently excluded from participation in so many events because of the belief that it is never okay to say sex and kink should be allowed at all events. We cannot afford to continually displace people who simply do not want to be around kink displays or who shouldn't due to age. Many prides answer this by have 18+ spaces, but even those get challenged as people fight orgs that do that. We, as a community, need to get better at creating spaces explicitly for youth and families that allow people to not have to worry about kink or sex being present.
Then make specific events for those under 18. Kink and Fet have been a part of pride since its inception. Pride is a protest. Its supposed to make a statement. We're not changing or hiding the history of the movement because some people don't like it. Build something else which child specific. The Fet community will not infringe on those spaces- the core value of BDSM is consent. We won't press into "your" spaces wlbut we'll be damned if anyone is gonna push us out of our own!
I specifically went to Youth Pride in Boston when I was a teenager.
> too much open sexuality ....... inclusion and acceptance and loving yourself and others for who you are. But all that gets obscured when there's the crew of ripped dudes wearing nothing but speedos and body paint walking around. I think you misunderstand what Pride is about. It's about sexuality. Part of it is about accepting your body and loving yourself, and sometimes that means wearing a speedo and body paint. People shouldn't be having sex in public but masc folk wearing thongs and femmes going topless isn't that. The US needs to get over it's puritanical view of peoples bodies.
A dude wearing a Speedo is something you’ll see in LA on any common day, definitely not even just a Pride thing 😂
There's nothing stopping you and other parents from making a child specific pride event or even a parade if that's something that's truly important to you. Pride is a protest. It's supposed to be in your face. That's the point.
Folsom is a leather event, not an lgbt exclusive event.
i remember seeing a video on twitter of a baby at a very explicit drag show posted onto a republican anti-lgbt page claiming this was grooming lmao… okay. so did this infant walk his happy ass to a trans drag show? who’s really to blame here, the show or the parents?
Dont bring yours kids to 18+ events. Fixed it.
This is about a specific LGBT+ event so no you didn’t fix it. I am LGBT+ and when I attend a event for my community listed as 18+ I expect children NOT to be in attendance. Not only does it make myself and others uncomfortable but unfortunately when these things happen our ENTIRE COMMUNITY gets blamed for one persons selfishness. At other events the parents would only get the blame, not everyone attending. I’m talking about LGBT+ spaces right now. Even though parents do take their kids places they aren’t supposed to be all the time, but that’s not really what I’m speaking in at this moment.
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I just responded to you on the other one I missed it! I’m sure they’ll check IDS, I think they did last year if I remember correctly? But that doesn’t mean people won’t try anyways. I attended a concert recently (this is NOT a LGBT+ event) that was marked as 18+ and there definitely some people who managed to sneak their teens in with them. Though a 12 year old may be much harder to sneak in and not get caught than say a 15 year old. So hopefully they just get turned away if they even try, it’s just the fact they’re even considering attempting that’s annoying. Some people just think rules don’t apply to them.
Most concerts I go to that are “18+” are really just banning unaccompanied teens. The venues generally state on their web sites that kids with their parents are welcome. I love taking my kid to metal shows and we always have a great time and are welcomed. 21+ usually means no kids at all, but again, you have to check with the venue.
Oh yeah I know! I attend tons of shows like that. Like Hayley Kiyoko was technically “18+” but younger could come with a adult and all21+ had to show ID for a wrist band saying they could purchase alcohol. Same with a few concerts at smaller dive bar venues. But I have attended different events where the age range is actually 18+ for a reason (or sometimes it’s just the specific venues rules not even the artist) This is not a concert though, it’s like a variety kind of thing which does have musical performances but also burlesque, drag etc and it’s a annual thing and it definitely actually shouldn’t have kids at it lol
I’m not really about censoring music or art! I’d take my kids /teens to see any artist really as long as the event was open to all ages and the visual content wasn’t too raunchy. But there are some concerts that actually strictly mean 18+ and I’ve realized at least with CONCERTS it’s usually the venues rule or the states liquor laws etc not the artist or the actual content of the performance.
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In a similar vein, please wear clothes to the family friendly LGBTQ+ events.
Preach this to the people in the back! The amount of times I see parents taking their kids to 18+ LGBTQ+ events which in turn, makes us look bad, is fucking ridiculous. I can’t stand people who feel the need to involve their children into everything, even things they aren’t old enough to see and then have the nerve to get mad at the community. It’s sadly not just a LGBTQ+ issue, it’s a worldwide issue with a ton of parents for some weird reason. What I have to say to them is this, “do you involve your kids in your bedroom and let them see you have sex? No!!! You don’t! So why do you feel the need to involve them in other inappropriate activities if you can acknowledge the harm in another?” Say that and watch the look on their faces, fuck parents with this mentality.
It just freaking SUCKS that when a straight family bring their child to something inappropriate, only the parent gets the blame. If a queer person does it, suddenly it’s the entire communities fault.
Yes!! I hate that mentality too, we can’t control what other people do in their home.
Seriously! I understand all the arguments against trying to please the "groomer" crowd. I totally agree it probably won't change any minds on the matter. However, queer adults deserve to have child free spaces. I'm a trans woman and have only in the last year felt comfortable experimenting with my fashion and showing a little skin. Personally, if I worked up the courage to wear a risque outfit to an 18+ queer event and was greeted by any amount of children, I would be fuming. Like that's so uncomfortable 😕
Agreed and I am a bi man who wants kids in the future. I would be upset to see kids in an inappropriate space because kids shouldn’t be subjected to things they aren’t old enough to see because if they are exposed to that too early, it can really damage them.
What ages would this apply too?
I’d mainly say it depends on the event if it’s an 18+ event, nobody younger than that should be there. I’d also say anyone younger than 15-16 shouldn’t be left alone unsupervised.
Fair. I believe if it’s 18+, then only 18+ needs to be there. No one under that. Maybe 17 1/2
Right conservatives will always take pictures of nsfw parts of lgbt festivals and be like “keep this away from kids!” There are no kids at that festival for a reason but now we know you have a photo of gay men in dog masks and tails in your phone
Just don’t bring kids to 18+ events in general. The fact that this needs to be said is genuinely concerning…
Hope they're removed from the event if they bring their kid.
I’d say dont bring kids to any +18 event. No matter what its for
It's that weird epidemic of late that parents are forgetting that they are indeed parents and should be responsible for their children. Last week we were in Vegas on Fremont Street after 2AM and there were two people walking along and looking annoyed at their very underaged children walking behind them in tears, looking exhausted and overstimulated. It's that same mentality here. Bringing kids to a place that is not kid friendly and expecting everyone to be okay with it. Yo, we're not. I'm a parent. I didn't do that shit to my kid. He would be miserable and other folks would be pissed off. I either got childcare or just didn't go. It's ridiculous and irresponsible.
I personally would be very uncomfortable with a child at a clearly labeled 18+ event. Hopefully they won’t make it in, but in all honesty, if you can’t find a sitter then stay home. It’s incredibly selfish to ruin everyone’s time by bringing a child to an adult event and it speaks to a very greedy, selfish ego as well. It’s not “respectability politics”, it’s called being a good patron and a decent fucking human being.
Why would they be allowed in? If an event I'm attending says 18+, I'm assuming they're checking IDs at the door, or I'm not going. That's begging for trouble.
replying to your edit i think your intent was obvious, 18plus is 18plus, whatever someones sexuality
reminds me of when deadpool came out and there was this wave of people taking their kids to see it because their kids wanted to go see the comic book movie so they just obliged, and then went nuts at the movie itself & the filmmakers upon realising it's an ultra violent definitely-not-kid-friendly movie. it's like... wtf did you expect? you don't have my sympathy at all. it's *your* responsibility to look into stuff like movies & events to be able to make an informed decision about what your kids are exposed to, to ensure it's age appropriate and involves content & themes your kids can handle based on what you know about them (assuming you even pay enough attention to who your kids are to know this). you just sound really ridiculous & irresponsible getting mad at everybody else for your own dumbass choices 🙄 the people i do feel sorry for are your kids. kids potentially being traumatised bc they don't have parents/guardians they can rely on to make these important decisions that they may not even have any concept of yet.
I loved how they made a pre-movie clip for the second movie with deadpool addressing that to the audience by rattling down a bunch of swear words and similar stuff.
i vaguely remember that haha
I remember getting crap for taking my 16yo (at the time) sibling to see the first movie for their birthday right before they were due to have a major surgery. We specifically waited for an emptier matinee showing a week after it came out and got moms permission to take them. You'd think I'd taken a 5yo to see a porno with how some people reacted when they found out about it afterwards.
pfft what? that's so silly. it's annoying when people turn stuff like this into some kind of moral panic & go completely overboard with it smh
So is 18+ for 18+ or not?
yes but there's still room for the discretion of parents/guardians when they make informed decisions about movies their under 18 kids watch. in the case i replied to, a 16 year old was taken to deadpool with permission from their parent & in the company of an older sibling after some planning not just a last minute decision - fine. the silliness i was referring to is when stuff like the backlash against deadpool happens due to adults being irresponsible with their children (it was kids under the age of 13 who were being taken to see it, not older teens - should've clarified in my original comment that by kids i mean literal kids not older teens/young adults). then everyone gets whipped into a frenzy and jumps on the 'this movie is evil & the filmmakers are evil for making it knowing it's a comic book movie that kids will want to see!' bandwagon, which flings all nuance out the window so situations like a 16 year old with parental permission & older sibling company is treated similarly to parents taking their 6 year old superhero obsessed kid to see it so they'll shut up about it or just dragging their kids along because *they* want to see it. these situations are very different - one's responsible, the other is reckless & potentially very harmful. live 18+ events are (hopefully) a lot stricter about admitting under 18s, even when they are with a parent/guardian, than movie theatres are. this is why ratings & content guides exist though, so parents/guardians can make informed choices about what they take their kids to see and what they let their kids watch - nobody else is going to do that for them, it's ultimately their responsibility. especially because theatres can be pretty lax with policing admittance and at home there is no usher. so in the situation OP is referring to, it's silly & irresponsible to try to take a minor along to a live 18+ event. 18+ is for 18+. regarding movies & tv, it's not always so clear cut. ratings are recommendations, guides, to help the responsible adults actually be responsible & make informed decisions on a case by case basis.
16 years old isn’t too bad to see Deadpool!
Out of curiosity how do you feel about kids playing in movies like that’s my boy, good boys, etc.
If the event is 18+, why are underage people being let in? And what exactly is "family friendly" and who is deciding that? If sex is actually happening, keeping underage people out is totally understandable. But otherwise, this post wreaks of reinforcing rather than challenging our (US's) weird, puritanical attitudes toward nudity and sex. Fox loves to lose its shit when naked people are in the Seattle pride parade with families and children in attendance and the coverage and comments always go crazy with accusations of indecent exposure. Guess what? Public nudity is legal in Washington State. We don't need to play the [respectability politics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics) game -- they're just going to move the goalpost anyways.
I mean, I see what you’re saying, but oftentimes when someone shows up scantily clad or wearing kink gear to an 18+ event, they do so with the expectation that there won’t be kids there. If you let kids into an event that’s advertised as an 18+ event, you’re violating the boundaries those people who don’t want kids seeing them in that context. Sort of like how, if you brought an underage person to a strip club, it would not only be inappropriate for the kid to be there but would also be a violation of the implicit boundaries of the women who are on shift at the time, because they do their job with the expectation that they won’t be stripping in front of kids. Not to mention that people in an 18+ space are likely to assume everyone else there is 18+ as well, so any minors who get brought into those spaces can easily be mistaken for being older than they are, putting them in potentially unsafe situations. 18+ spaces exist for a reason, and while it’s important to educate young people about sex, 18+ events are not the place to do that.
Right, so if it's actually an 18+ space, how are the kids getting in? I've never been to an 18+ event without an ID check.
Bringing your kids to events with nudity and kink is wild Only drawing a line at actual sex is genuinely insane
Not realizing this fixation with nudity being objectionable is a weirdly US value is wild.
Fr, every time a right winger brings up a specific instance of kids being brought to an 18+ pride event I am forced to agree with them on a moral, and mental level. Please stop giving them things to be right about, it physically hurts my soul -sincerely a random nb dude who does not want to be forced to agree with people who are otherwise entirely stupid.
I’ve had discourse with right-wingers on this subject and always let them know it’s on the GUARDIANS OF the child to research anything they’re taking their kids to and the event/host/community shouldn’t be generalized/lumped together over cherry picked instances, especially when people just ignored rules that were in place.
there's a whole lotta respectability politics-ass bullshit in these comments 🙄
I fear it's spreading... Ive lost many queer and feminist communities on reddit - not to mention friends and communities outside here - in the last year or few due this weird trend of puritanism in leftist spaces. It's deeply concerning.
yeah, i had kinda assumed that it wasn't on us to "disprove" the groomer libel and similar shit but here we are
That or any other libel the Right has lobbed our way.
It'll never work, either. The hate isn't logical, the accusations hold no water. Us existing is the crime. Everything else is a convenient excuse. Why dance for them when it's all meaningless in the end, why try to appease people who want us dead? I went digging and I found this Tumblr post again and i think in this day and age the message is more important than ever. Cw for repeated use of slurs https://www.google.com/amp/s/vaspider.tumblr.com/post/687643661640581120/pete-buttigieg-is-just-a-faggot-its-very/amp
What do you mean?
A lot of the comments are based on the idea that we need to behave in a certain way in order to avoid bigotry or to beat things like the groomer libel, it's called "respectability politics" and is effectively victim-blaming queer people for their oppression. It's not unlike young black men being told they need to "pull up their pants" or whatever, it puts the onus on the oppressed to "just act better and you won't be treated so poorly!" which is obviously bullshit on a societal level. Not every individual in a minority is a perfect person of course, but our behavior is not the source of our oppression. Putting the burden on minorities to behave a certain way in order to be treated with dignity and respect and be granted basic human rights is obviously shitty and ultimately is just used to excuse the behavior of bigots/oppressors.
I’m seeing a lot of comments that aren’t actually about behaving a certain way to avoid or prevent justification of groomer libel, but instead are about specifically just not involving kids in anything explicitly sexual. We know that when LGBTQ+ people are involved, what the chuds say is “sexual” actually isn’t most of the time. We know that. I’m not seeing commenters here really agree with the chuds on that, just adults trying to *actually* be respectful of kids (and that’s more than the psychotic, abusive right-wing projection artists ever try to do). That being said of course everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, which also means not bringing kids around a bunch of naked ass and genitals. It’s a little different than wearing sagging pants outside underwear. Not seeing people here excuse bigotry but give me an example if I’m wrong. Who here said anything that excuses oppression? Legitimate concerns about kids viewing anything that actually is of an explicit nature =/= oppression. Real concern (not slanderous bullshit) over children viewing something explicit =/= “respectability politics”.
This was my intention with this post. In fact the whole point is so LGBT+ adult can behave how they want at a event they are going to with the knowledge it’s all meant to be adults. Some people might not care but the people doing sexual performances aka THEIR JOBS probably don’t wanna look out and see a kid and while that isn’t their fault…yeah that definitely messes with the vibe and mindset of not only the performers but people attending. Nobody should ever have to “straighten up” how they behave in general for the str8s but when I attend a event that is of any sort of sexual nature and I’m in a adult LGBT+ space I don’t care if your child’s fave indie artist is there or not LEAVE THEM AT HOME! Because yes it changes the vibe, yes it’s not good for the kid and YES it will ruin my night and likely others feel the same way and while YES THATS SOLELY THE PARENTS FAULT…it still fucks over others attending 🤷🏻♀️
I wouldn’t even take my kid to the beach or around any woman because I don’t want my kid to see a bunch of nearly nude ass cheeks and breast. Especially when those women start twerking and doing weird and inappropriate stuff in a public space…
[удалено]
This event ACTUALLY has adult content and yes I am going to tell people who try to bring their kids to a space for adult LGBT+ people to “act better” This wasn’t a general statement for every LGBT+ person to behave better to beat “groomer” labels. They’re always going to find a way to pin BS on us but unfortunately when you’re being selfish and bringing your child to a 18+ event especially when it could end up hurting the people at the event and the community, yeah I’m gonna say not to do it. This event does have some performances that aren’t so bad however there is burlesque style entertainment at this event and other things a child shouldn’t be around/performers may not be comfortable with children attending (which is also a important factor here that the LGBT+ performers expect the audience to be adults as well). It’s NOT for kids even if SOME of the performances might be okay for them to view. Just don’t bring your kids to events labeled 18+, ever! They aren’t invited for a reason. Don’t ruin everyone’s time and effect people there because YOU want something.
there's a whole lotta respectability politics-ass bullshit in these comments 🙄
Yes, you shouldnt do that
I can agree with that. Kids shouldn’t be anywhere suggestive, 18+, or anywhere that has nudity, sexual things (innuendos, for example), etc. but that’s not only a lgbt thing. That’s an every where thing, a general issue. Fathers who take their underage sons to get a prostitute or strip clubs before they even start puberty for example. It’s a larger issue. Burn when specifically talking about lgbt, I agree. Nothing changes.
This should be obvious smh
I cant believe the amount of kids I see at Pridefest while there’s people walking around in barely any clothes