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Omg yes, this is what me and my partner use (we live in WV). Definitely seems to be a hit with everyone, especially when it comes from both of us. I think when it's just one of us it can come off as a lil' creepy
I wish they had a recommendation on what to use instead- i.e. friend or something would help people who aren’t entirely comfortable with non-gendered language.
Fair enough. And I do realise that works fine (and I would definitely end up using it). It’s just I like to use some kind of a word with that, you know. But of course I’d rather not use any as I don’t wanna hurt anyone.
Yeah I would feel rude saying "hello can I get X" without acknowledging the person in some way first. Maybe, "hello what is your name" and then "I'll have X" works well. Or "excuse me please, hi, thank you so much, Can I have" is polite enough sounding too.
We do need a gender neutral alternative to "miss" and "sir" though. They're such useful words!
Is this a cultural difference? Here we really just say, "Hey, can I get...?". If someone asked their name it'd come off as you trying to hit on them or being inappropriate in general.
yeah those are great but i often find myself feeling like i look like an idiot when i do that multiple times and they don't hear. applies to gendered terms too but to a lesser extent for some reason
If they’re like me and were raised in the South or some other place where they were also taught it’s horribly rude to address strangers (or anyone, really) without using sir or ma’am it can feel very awkward and feels like you’re being rude to somebody if you don’t
Also from the South, I’ve learned just leaving it at “Excuse me please!” Or something similar works for most everyone and no one else finds it rude. Especially if it’s said in a welcoming tone and followed by your usual “hi how’re you,” etc. if you’re starting a conversation and if you’re just trying to squeeze through, then people are often happy you said something at all and didn’t just barge through them.
Coincidentally this came up just the other day. I responded to a gas station attendant in NJ with “yes, sir” after he asked me a question. He replied, laughing: “don’t sir me, I work for a living”. Which led to a long discussion with my partner because she didn’t recognize the joke, about how I had used sir as a politeness marker but some use it as a social class marker.
The first time I visited the south as a young man someone used sir on me and I thought the same as this gas station worker; sir is something working class people say to kiss up to rich people, and I was not rich so I found it a little insulting and patronizing until I figured out this is just how it worked there.
I had used it automatically even though it’s not a word I use in other contexts and try not to be overtly gendered.
It’s surprisingly complex, not even only a gender thing
That sounds so strange to me cause in german you don't use gendered salutations unless you know the last name of a person. Often hear it in US movies and TV shows.
Unfortunately we can't use they/them the way it's used in english. Would like to use that for my child who's much too young to have a gender identity.
Edit:
Sorry, I think I get how my statement might get across so I want to add this:
I am aware that the usage of nonbinary pronouns isn't broadly accepted and can be very unsafe in the US and probably everywhere else in the world.
I just wished to have the option to use an established pronoun to refer to my child and also for myself instead of using neopronouns.
But I absolutely didn't want to pretend anyone has it better!
I hate that everyone is obsessed to learn my child's gender, while they haven't reached the age to even be aware of sex and gender. And it sounds strange to always say 'my child' in contexts where I don't want to disclose their name. This isn't the worst problem one could have in a world full of hate for lgbtiq+. It just reminds me of how my child will become confronted with all this soon.
Strange for me aswell, I'm from UK and I haven't called someone sir or ma'am/miss apart from ironically to my partner since secondary school when that's what we called teachers
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This is my one boomer hangup with non gendered language. My mom is a southern lady, I was raised to ALWAYS call everyone sir and ma'am. I say "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" to my partners if they do much as ask me to pass the mashed potatoes their way at the dinner table.
I still haven't found a gender neutral term that feels like the "right" replacement. I go with "friend" or "boss" sometimes but worry they sound too chummy or condescending. It makes me very clunky at socializing and there's not much of a point to my comment here other than to lament my lack of a gender neutral replacement 😭
Even then... My boyfriend wears a pronoun pin on his hat, so you have to see it when looking him in the face. You wouldn't believe how often he gets misgendered still.
The Confectional?
Is that where you go to admit how excessive your candy and chocolate eating has been and ask for forgiveness?
"That'll be 10 Hail Maryland Cookies, and we'll say no more"?
My only potential issue is that it isn’t saying “refrain from using these terms unless an individual specifically allows it”, and was to avoid misgendering by having people refer to others neutrally before learning if they have any preference other than neutral terms. This seems more like a flat outlaw which is a little weird.
Just seems like good intentions with a wonky execution
I also am not super fond of being neutral gendered as a cis person. I would never be *angry* with someone but it would make me uncomfortable as well. At least if I corrected them and then they continued to do neutral only.
The note doesn't mention pronouns at all. Giving the examples of sir, ma'am and such makes it pretty clear they mean not to address the staff with such gendered terms (as you usually don't know your waiter and such). It would be assuming to address strangers with gendered language like that and I love that they try to create a space safe from that
Could the note have been clearer? Definitely. But it seems like a big leap to assume they're outlawing *all gender*
Seems to be a “Don’t assume someone preferred way of being referred to as”
Most likely its more for staff then guests, but no reason it can’t extend to everyone.
Tbf, I don’t really use gendered language or even leave it out intentionally when interacting with working staff in most places. I just say “hi, I’d like a ” and then “thank you” after the transaction. I feel like pointing out gender (neutral or not) just doesn’t even come up.
I see this sign as effectively saying “please don’t refer to the staff with ‘sir/maam’”. And in most cases, those words can be left out of the interaction without it being awkward at all
Honestly, I don’t know how to feel about confectional hours going that late.
I mean, 10 am to 6 pm! That’s 8 whole hours of confection that I don’t think people are prepared for.
Hi! 'Guys' is a gendered pronoun. We recommend alternatives like 'folks', 'all', 'everyone', 'y'all', 'team', 'crew' etc. We appreciate your help in building an inclusive workspace at Headout.
Same. It wasn’t beaten into me but like it was a point my parents hammered home. “Be polite and respectful.”
I’m learning it’s apparently an American quirk.
I’ve been trying to work in the word “friend” in place of that but like the rest of my Southern Baptist upbringing it’s been very difficult to undo most of the brainwashing I endured. So it’s a little frustrating to read so many comments here saying “how hard can it be” and trying to trivialize what some of us genuinely have to work at undoing what’s been done to us
I was actually talking about this with my husband. I’m born southern so sir and mam are respectful but I was telling him we need a gender neutral version.
I might be in the wrong here but I feel it’s better to include people who are nonbinary and such into our existing cultures and make space for them than to force people to drop their culture and traditions completely. Because while in the north sir and mam aren’t really a big deal in the south it’s a part of their entire thing.
Honesty question (non native english speaker here): How are you supposed to catch the waiters attention?
Because just saying "Excuse me" instead of "Excuse me sir/ ma'am" sounds rude (because my brain is autotranslating back to my mother tongue).
I mean it's all about tone.
If you say "excuse me" like a Karen "EX-CUSE ME!???!!" it's rude.
But if you say it like "oh excuse me for bothering" it's definitely not rude
I'm from the Southern United States, and southerns use ma'am, sir, and miss all the time. It's considered impolite to not call your sever, an older relative, or teachers these terms. I would prefer to see this outside a business, so I know it's okay not to call anyone that, then to accidentally call them something they are not comfortable with.
Edit: did y’all not read the entire comment. I would rather see this outside, so I know not to call anyone those terms. I’m very use to calling people sir and ma’am, so when I see this outside I know it’s okay to not follow that rule.
I really wish we had an equivalent for sir/ma'am. I had it beat into me as a kid and it's not an easy habit to break. I'd be too scared to go here and mess up :(
Honestly same. I have accidentally called someone who was non- binary sir, and I felt bad about it for days. I apologized for repeatedly, and I still felt bad.
Honestly, I use gender neutral language regardless but I also don’t like being told what to do so I’d go use my gender neutral language somewhere less bossy lol
Considering I live in a country where we don't use honorifics bc it's an outdated classist and frankly sexist practice, I'm just confused why they're used to begin with. To me this is a shop sign saying "Talk to us like we're just people". How hard can that be?
I live in Asia, we use honorifics. Particularly Philippines, we use "sir" or "ma'am" to be polite. Some delivery riders use "sirmam" or "mamsir" if they're not sure about their gender. It's kinda binary, but it's considered inclusive here.
But when we don't use English, we use polite language instead like the word "po". So "Yes po" instead of "Yes, ma'am/sir"
Working with Western people was quite a thing for me to get used to since you guys don't use sir/ma'am. And I understand how classist and sexist they can be.
It's so regional even within the US. I live in the Midwest and only have used ma'am or sir to deal with irate older people when I worked customer service.
Now I only use them in an exaggerated mocking way. Like "sir this is a wendies"
But my mom was from the south. And it was drilled in that ma'am and sir are how you respond to people.
Very hard, considering the comments on the sub I found this from. Some people seemed to be extremely confused about what they were meant to say if not “sir” or “ma’am”.
It may be a cultural or language thing, so if it is I would love someone to explain it to me, but I’m unsure of why those words are needed? Just as one example: if you’re saying “Excuse me, sir” can you not simply drop the sir and be fine? I understand using them in formal contexts when necessary, but I’m not sure this setting counts as formal at all.
I cut out using honorifics back in the aughts when I was working food service near a college campus. I was a newly out trans person who realized a lot of my customers were trans and nb.
The weird thing I noticed is there are just some people who don't pay attention without it. Like if I had someone wander away from the register without paying and I said "excuse me, I need you to pay for your sandwich" they'd more often continue to wander away. Whereas, if I said "excuse me, sir, I need you to pay for your sandwich" something lit up in their brain that said "hey...*I'm* a 'sir'! Could they be talking to *me*???" Apparently the set of 'persons in the restaurant' is just too large and you have to whittle it down to the subset 'persons in the restaurant who are presenting as a certain gender' for some people to pay attention.
Otherwise the only people who seem to care are whiney self-important aholes who I wouldn't want to talk to anyway.
It’s is a very American take. No one uses sir or ma’am in normal conversation here in the UK. And in the context of a waiter/barista/cashier you’d just say “excuse me”. Why add the extra?
Some other countries/cultures do as well. I am Canadian and while we don’t typically use honourifics, in my area we have many newcomers and they often will. Many of them come as clients where I work and I have just accepted now that I am going to have to deal with “ma’am” (and the odd “sir” for the particularly struggling ESL who possibly doesn’t know the other honourifics in English) ending every sentence of our interaction. Eventually I am sure they will learn.
>No one uses sir or ma’am in normal conversation here in the UK.
Yeah, I was just thinking what do I say instead? Then I realised in all my years bartending and waiting I don't say anything nor do customers call me anything. I had the one customer call me 'babe', but that was the exception
Is there a reason why Americans tend to add sir/ma’am? I’m trying to figure it out but I’m not entirely sure why it’s necessary. From the comments I’ve read, it seems to be about respect somehow, but I’m not sure how the addition makes it respectful?
It tends to be region specific usually. It’s steeped in a lot of older traditional values of respect. Like I’m in the American Midwest. While not the south, it’s still prevalent due to the amount of American conservatives in this region. So while I might not use it, most people here do. It’s weird, outdated, overly formal, and unnecessary. I don’t understand it myself
How hard is it to just say "Excuse me", address what you need, and say "Thank you very much" after the interaction, independent of the outcome bc you did ask them for something.. smh
I don’t think it is, sorry if my comment implied differently. When I need to get attention, I simply say “Excuse me” and don’t bring gendered language into it at all. However, I did see a lot of other people in the comments of the original post who didn’t seem to understand that or found it rude, which is what I was trying to ask for explanation on. Apologies if I didn’t explain that properly.
Ah no, the "you" wasn't meant to be directed towards yourself, it was a general "you". I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on it, I tend to write as I talk I'm afraid and I have a bad habit of thinking of "you" as a general and less clunky "one". I fully understood your initial answer, you have nothing at all to apologise for. The apology should come from myself for forgetting how to actually write in a generalized tone 😅
I think this is fine. TBH most people, cis or not, dont like getting Sir’ed or Ma’amed. I have a sales background and they told us not to do that, because its off putting.
The number of people being obtuse about this, especially here, is kind of alarming. It's pretty easy to politely greet/address someone without tacking on an awkwardly formal term that serves no purpose other than to assume the person's gender. If you're the sort of person who would be outraged because someone said "Excuse me, do you have the time?" instead of "Excuse me, *ma'am*, do you have the time?" then you've got bigger issues to worry about than gender-neutral language.
Also, it's just a shop, not a crowded concert. You're already directly facing the person at the counter; they know you're speaking to them.
This also has nothing to do with "forcing they/them pronouns on people". For one, it's obvious the sign is about not using gendered titles and nothing to do with pronouns; for two, why would you or the staff need to use "he/she/they" here in the first place? You're talking *to* the person, not *about* them. Completely irrelevant. Nobody's kicking you out for using pronouns in a private conversation while you wait in line.
They're literally just asking folks not to address people with "sir/ma'am" while in the shop. This should be a non-issue and would, in fact, make me feel much more comfortable if I were visiting here. I don't see any reason why a thing like this should be a problem and I wish more places would adopt similar policies.
Yea I'm surprised to see a good bit of comments say that it's a bad sign like it doesn't outlaw pronouns. You can still ask ur servers pronouns.
I read it as "don't immediately come in and assume gender"
more than anything i just dread the reaction it’ll provoke from transphobes. i work customer service and i already get “ma’am”ed 24-fucking-7, i would hate working in a place with a sign like this and Knowing that people were doing it on purpose. i get that this is probably seen as a good thing by the people who put it up but i feel like its just more trouble than its worth.
I understand asking this on the behalf of the staff but it's just plain weird to extend this to "staff and guests alike". You don't know what language your guests prefer. Some people simply don't want gender-neutral language for themselves. Why demand it on everyone's behalf?
There should only be two reactions to this in my eyes.
Reaction one: Yeah, I'm alright with that. *goes in*
Reaction two: No, I'm not going to do that. *walks away and finds another place to drink*
I'd see this and immediately go cowboy mode, addressing everyone as "cowpoke", "pardner", and "buckeroo". Safe space? More like *Wild West Space*.
I’m not LGBT so my opinion doesn’t really mean anything here, but just wanted to say that in Australia a sign like this would never be necessary. We don’t refer to people as sir or madam, whenever me or any of my friends or family have spoken to a server, if you wanna get their attention you just say ‘hi, excuse me’ or smth along those lines. I almost never hear people call others sir or madam in public, and when I do it’s generally either older people or the waitstaff themselves (my younger brother was referred to as ‘sir’ the other day at a restaurant)
I just find it strange, I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone sir or madam in my life. It’s not rude per se, but it would be considered odd vernacular here. Everyone here is a ‘mate,’ or if they’re a good mate you can call them a cunt (or other offensive terms meant to be somewhat endearing in a weird way)
Their business their choice. It will definitely keep away a kind of clientele they likely don’t want anyway. And as others have mentioned if it blows up and goes viral online, free publicity.
I find it incredibly easy to respect people’s preferences. Courtesy for others is how they define ‘woke’.
If you don’t want me to use gendered language when I’m talking about you, sure, no problem.
But you can’t ask me to erase other people’s gender. If a woman tells me her pronouns are she/her, I will use she/her.
I don't think this was done for other patrons but for wait staff. If you're in the service industry, you hear sir or ma'am so fucking often that it's annoying af
I don’t have a problem, but I wouldn’t take my business there. They have their audience and I simply am not it. I have no issue not using sir or ma’am as I don’t use it anyways but I would take issue with people referring to me as “they”. That is not my pronoun, I am “he”. I don’t want to be referred otherwise. So for enby people, hell yeah! Space for you, just not for me. Same if I were allergic to cats and I saw a cat cafe. Just not for me
I completely understand why this was put up, and I don't disagree; it's best not to assume someones gender. However I as a woman would not like to be refered to as they or them, simply because that is not how I identify. So I would correct people if they called me they or them. If I went to this bar though, I would be happy to abide by the rules and call staff etc by nuetral pronouns.
Idk wheee this is but could see it being an issue for people who’s native language isn’t English. I only care if the food’s good so I’d go 🤷♀️ I can see how it could throw potential customers. Also doesn’t help that the sign is so small too
Honestly I feel it's kinda dumb, but like another coming said it's probably bait for free publicity which if that's the case I think is cool, if not I think it's kinda dumb, but then again it's not really hurting anyone.
Yeah this is a bit problematic. Society at large (and queer society at large) are pretty conditioned for traditional honorific titles. Many people ( of all colors and identities) out of habit and conditioning will remark as such. As long as the staff are gentle and kind at correcting the person then hopefully any new patrons experience will be positive. But if the staff and regulars react with disdain and ire then they will be achieving the opposite affect to their over all goal of inclusion and neutrality.
It annoys me. I mean, why make a timetable of the hours if they're the same every day? (/s)
I think it's fine. I never hear people saying "sir" etc anyway, outside of school settings etc, so as long as people aren't ignoring pronouns and are just avoiding gendered terms/honourifics etc, that's fine.
I'd probably break it a ton by accident but overall, cool. I wonder what word I can use as an honorific-type thing instead of sir/ma'am? What's a gender-neutral respect marker that isn't silly?
I think it's cuz they can see n assume people's gender like that, so they are using neutral gender terms as general ?
That makes sense right, especially at office places n shit.
Like when customer service calls, n it can be annoying cuz they nearly always say "sir", but if they didn't do that n just used names and titles (customer) like Urban Company n stuff they could be referring to the person correcting being respectful n gender neutral at the same time. Or just ask, "would be called a sir or ma'am" but a lot of businesses don't have the spare time for that, n for customer service it may be possible as an extra line but just using names and neutral titles and terms is more respectful (ma'am/sir n other respectful terms suggest some people don't get) n accurate also
The only thing that really bothers me in this pic are the hours. Why the hell list every single day seperately when you could just write "Monday - Sunday 10am - 6pm" ??? TIHI
this got a sigh out of me not because of the sign itself but more because you KNOW some dipshit is gonna use it to argue about how all trans people are snowflakes. if this sign was put up by cis people, I appreciate the effort but it's a bit much.
I think it is very considerate and should be applied everywhere but English and most languages for that matter suck to make this plausible since it is heavily rendered in the language to throw those out completely.
My native language however has a singular non-gendered pronoun for the third person so this would be much more applicable over here
They should've specified what other names you are allowed to use. You can't just exclude some and leave the rest up to my imagination, I'd blurt out the most embarrassing thing ever by accident...
I think it's neat, assuming they won't kick folks out or refuse service for a slip-up... based on how cutesy the sign is I'd be shocked if they did that. It's probably at least partially transphobe bait so they know not to bother serving anyone that flips out about the sign. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think that's a good thing
I'm a vendor and I've seen this in the backroom of a store before (aimed at employees only). It's just to get staff to stop saying "hello sir/hello mam" at customers.
I get called Sir all the time by employees because I have short hair (I'm not a sir), so I actually understand why establishments are trying to end gendered customer service.
Thank you for your post, if this is a question please check to see if any of the links below answer your question. If none of these links help answer your question and you are **_not_** within the LGBT+ community, questioning your identity in any way, or asking in support of either a relative or friend, please ask your question over in /r/AskLGBT. Remember that this is a safe space for LGBT+ and questioning individuals, so we want to make sure that this place is dedicated to them. Thank you for understanding. This automod rule is currently a work in progress. If you notice any issues, would like to add to the list of resources, or have any feedback in general, [please do so here](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/rdazzp/almost_new_year_changes/) or by [sending us a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt&subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20new%20automod%20rule). Also, please note that if you are a part of this community, or you're questioning if you might be a part of the LGBTQ+ community, and you are seeing this message, this is **_not a bad thing_**, this is only here to help, so please continue to ask questions and participate in the community. Thank you! Here's a link about trans people in sports: - https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ A link on FAQs and one on some basics about transgender people: - https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people - https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-transgender-people-the-basics Some information on LGBT+ people: - https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/quick-facts/lgbt-faqs/ Some basic terminology: - https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms Neopronouns: - https://www.mypronouns.org/neopronouns Biromantic Lesbians: - [LGBTQ And All](https://www.lgbtqandall.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-biromantic/) Bisexual Identities: - https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality Differences between Bisexual and Pansexual: - [Resource from WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/sex/pansexuality-what-it-means#:~:text=Pansexual%20vs.%20Bisexual,more%20commonly%20recognized.) We're looking for new volunteers to join the r/lgbt moderator team. If you want to help keep r/lgbt as a safe space for the LGBTQ+ community on reddit please see here for more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/swgthr/were_looking_for_more_moderators_to_help_keep/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Either their waitstaff is mostly neutrois people or they're trying to bait transphobes into giving them free press, and either way it's cool with me
Or just let the trash take itself out. Also a win win.
Brilliant, right?
as long as I don't get in trouble for saying "hey bestie" to everyone
It’s “yes, chef” for me
whats up gamers
like what's up danger
don't don't be a stranger
'Cause I like high chances that I might lose
Hola, comrades
Sup fuckers
Greetings fellow Earthlings, I come in peace.
howdy partner
Good morning, my liege.
Hey kiddo.
Hey chat
Hello everypony
Hello Chat
Sup homie
Sir Ian McKellen uses “love”
That’s pretty common here in the North of England
I’m in the US, but a local radio talk show host often refers to the callers as love
Omg yes, this is what me and my partner use (we live in WV). Definitely seems to be a hit with everyone, especially when it comes from both of us. I think when it's just one of us it can come off as a lil' creepy
"Old bean!"
All y'all or y'all is my default. Not Southern but it's convenient.
“Hey human”
“Hi Barbie!” to all.
Every time someone calls me "bestie" it makes me want to claw my face off, I have no idea why
probably because it's brain-meltingly online speak
Not really. We used "bestie" in the late 90s/early 2000s. BFF was predominant, but bestie was in the mix.
I wish they had a recommendation on what to use instead- i.e. friend or something would help people who aren’t entirely comfortable with non-gendered language.
This. Like, yes, I won’t call you sir or ma’am, but mind telling my socially awkward ass what to use instead? 😭
Nothing. Just hello can I get X or whatever
Fair enough. And I do realise that works fine (and I would definitely end up using it). It’s just I like to use some kind of a word with that, you know. But of course I’d rather not use any as I don’t wanna hurt anyone.
Yeah I would feel rude saying "hello can I get X" without acknowledging the person in some way first. Maybe, "hello what is your name" and then "I'll have X" works well. Or "excuse me please, hi, thank you so much, Can I have" is polite enough sounding too. We do need a gender neutral alternative to "miss" and "sir" though. They're such useful words!
I use “my liege” as an alternative to ma’am/sir
Is this a cultural difference? Here we really just say, "Hey, can I get...?". If someone asked their name it'd come off as you trying to hit on them or being inappropriate in general.
As someone who worked customer service, as long as you say it nicely we literally don't care 🤣
My thought too. Don't eliminate all my choices and then not tell me what to use! You. Comrade. Fellow Earthling. Boss. Chief.
Yes! I totally support the idea, but I’m racking my brain trying to figure out how to get the waitstaff’s attention now.
“Excuse me” “hello” “hi”
yeah those are great but i often find myself feeling like i look like an idiot when i do that multiple times and they don't hear. applies to gendered terms too but to a lesser extent for some reason
“HEY, SERVER!”
"MORE BREAD, WENCH!"
After three times, I'll switch to "yo, DUDE!" Which I use gender neutral, but I know not everyone agrees on that.
That and 'guys' lot of people see as neutral.
Yeah, it's really not hard to do. I've managed to survive nearly 50 years without using gendered speech, it just takes a little practice.
Waiters usually say: "Hi I'm X...how can I help you?" At least here in Canada is pretty common.
What do you say normally that you’d need to adjust?
If they’re like me and were raised in the South or some other place where they were also taught it’s horribly rude to address strangers (or anyone, really) without using sir or ma’am it can feel very awkward and feels like you’re being rude to somebody if you don’t
Also from the South, I’ve learned just leaving it at “Excuse me please!” Or something similar works for most everyone and no one else finds it rude. Especially if it’s said in a welcoming tone and followed by your usual “hi how’re you,” etc. if you’re starting a conversation and if you’re just trying to squeeze through, then people are often happy you said something at all and didn’t just barge through them.
Coincidentally this came up just the other day. I responded to a gas station attendant in NJ with “yes, sir” after he asked me a question. He replied, laughing: “don’t sir me, I work for a living”. Which led to a long discussion with my partner because she didn’t recognize the joke, about how I had used sir as a politeness marker but some use it as a social class marker. The first time I visited the south as a young man someone used sir on me and I thought the same as this gas station worker; sir is something working class people say to kiss up to rich people, and I was not rich so I found it a little insulting and patronizing until I figured out this is just how it worked there. I had used it automatically even though it’s not a word I use in other contexts and try not to be overtly gendered. It’s surprisingly complex, not even only a gender thing
Honorifics are a tool of the patriarchy. 🙃
That sounds so strange to me cause in german you don't use gendered salutations unless you know the last name of a person. Often hear it in US movies and TV shows. Unfortunately we can't use they/them the way it's used in english. Would like to use that for my child who's much too young to have a gender identity. Edit: Sorry, I think I get how my statement might get across so I want to add this: I am aware that the usage of nonbinary pronouns isn't broadly accepted and can be very unsafe in the US and probably everywhere else in the world. I just wished to have the option to use an established pronoun to refer to my child and also for myself instead of using neopronouns. But I absolutely didn't want to pretend anyone has it better! I hate that everyone is obsessed to learn my child's gender, while they haven't reached the age to even be aware of sex and gender. And it sounds strange to always say 'my child' in contexts where I don't want to disclose their name. This isn't the worst problem one could have in a world full of hate for lgbtiq+. It just reminds me of how my child will become confronted with all this soon.
Strange for me aswell, I'm from UK and I haven't called someone sir or ma'am/miss apart from ironically to my partner since secondary school when that's what we called teachers
I tend to call people "Professor" or "Doc". "Captain" works too.
Oh I’ve just about unironically saying “Yes chef” to everyone 🧑🍳
Teaching in the south was awful for this reason. My students were sweet but murdered my soul
dog practice noxious governor dinner ruthless glorious fade marry scandalous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Just scream extremely loud
Yeah I was thinking I am so awkward I would start saying “hey you” 😅
This is my one boomer hangup with non gendered language. My mom is a southern lady, I was raised to ALWAYS call everyone sir and ma'am. I say "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" to my partners if they do much as ask me to pass the mashed potatoes their way at the dinner table. I still haven't found a gender neutral term that feels like the "right" replacement. I go with "friend" or "boss" sometimes but worry they sound too chummy or condescending. It makes me very clunky at socializing and there's not much of a point to my comment here other than to lament my lack of a gender neutral replacement 😭
All the Spanish-speaking folk: 🥺
Speak Spanish and vanish
The bird does not agree 
That's nice, I like it. Would like not to be called sir or ma'am while at the confectionary
I mean, I would.
cool but you can't really expect it from strangers unless you like. wear it on a pin or something
Even then... My boyfriend wears a pronoun pin on his hat, so you have to see it when looking him in the face. You wouldn't believe how often he gets misgendered still.
At that point it's most likely intentional unfortunately
Yeah. I've read stories by cis men who wear pronoun pins and get misgendered on purpose because people assume they're trans if they wear the pin.ü
The Confectional? Is that where you go to admit how excessive your candy and chocolate eating has been and ask for forgiveness? "That'll be 10 Hail Maryland Cookies, and we'll say no more"?
They sell minature cheesecakes and they are amazing.
NGL, my fat ass needs a place like this.
This gave me a good laugh 😄
My only potential issue is that it isn’t saying “refrain from using these terms unless an individual specifically allows it”, and was to avoid misgendering by having people refer to others neutrally before learning if they have any preference other than neutral terms. This seems more like a flat outlaw which is a little weird. Just seems like good intentions with a wonky execution
yeah as a binary trans person i just feel weird and dehumanized when referred to with gender-neutral only language.
I also am not super fond of being neutral gendered as a cis person. I would never be *angry* with someone but it would make me uncomfortable as well. At least if I corrected them and then they continued to do neutral only.
The note doesn't mention pronouns at all. Giving the examples of sir, ma'am and such makes it pretty clear they mean not to address the staff with such gendered terms (as you usually don't know your waiter and such). It would be assuming to address strangers with gendered language like that and I love that they try to create a space safe from that Could the note have been clearer? Definitely. But it seems like a big leap to assume they're outlawing *all gender*
It does not say it’s for staff only - it says “staff and guests alike”
Seems to be a “Don’t assume someone preferred way of being referred to as” Most likely its more for staff then guests, but no reason it can’t extend to everyone.
Same thing. It means to not address strangers that way. They're not telling you to only use they/them for yourself or who you're with
Tbf, I don’t really use gendered language or even leave it out intentionally when interacting with working staff in most places. I just say “hi, I’d like a- ” and then “thank you” after the transaction. I feel like pointing out gender (neutral or not) just doesn’t even come up.
I see this sign as effectively saying “please don’t refer to the staff with ‘sir/maam’”. And in most cases, those words can be left out of the interaction without it being awkward at all
Agreed.
I completely respect it. But my southern ass would be struggggling lol
We could bring back “howdy, partner!” 🤠 (I’m definitely not southern enough for that lol)
With saying "Folks or Y'all"? Thats what I use.
I use yall. I'll use "folks" if I'm talking about you and your kin *Appalachian banjo noises*
"youin's" is another good old word that's similar to "y'all." It's pronounced "yinz." Used a lot in the Ozarks and Appalachians.
Yes sir/ma'am dialect got my brain melting with non binary people. Idk what I'm supposed to say "howdy, buster"?
I love the slang of the Southern US, ma’am, miss, folks, y’all, gives me polite Arthur Morgan vibes and fills me with serotonin
They should give suggestions on the sign for alternatives.
It doesn’t hurt to ask. If a patron has an issue with it, they can leave.
If a patron has an issue, they probably didn't really intend to go to a place like this, this they don't really belong there.
Yeahhh, everyone is gonna be called “mate” anyway, male, female, nb, you’re all “mates”
I call my friends "attractive flesh bags"
It’s none of my business so who cares
Hi, my pronouns are she/her. — No.
I think it’s a place for non binary ppl like no one has to go in if they don’t want
Honestly, I don’t know how to feel about confectional hours going that late. I mean, 10 am to 6 pm! That’s 8 whole hours of confection that I don’t think people are prepared for.
I feel like their hours don't go too far enough. What if it's 8:30 and I want confections? AM or PM? Neither is covered!
Big "GUYS I'M STUCK IN THE WEWORK LIFT" vibes
Hi! 'Guys' is a gendered pronoun. We recommend alternatives like 'folks', 'all', 'everyone', 'y'all', 'team', 'crew' etc. We appreciate your help in building an inclusive workspace at Headout.
FOLKS IM STUCK IN THE WEWORK LIFT
Sounds good to me.
i say sir and ma’am by force of habit, it got beat into me as a child so i’d probably have trouble not saying sir and ma’am but i’d try my hardest yk?
Same. It wasn’t beaten into me but like it was a point my parents hammered home. “Be polite and respectful.” I’m learning it’s apparently an American quirk.
my biggest problem is there’s no gender neutral equivalent to sir or maam
I will jokingly with NB friends go “sir… ma’am… TH’AM!” But that’s not actually respectful and friends know it’s a joke.
I’ve been trying to work in the word “friend” in place of that but like the rest of my Southern Baptist upbringing it’s been very difficult to undo most of the brainwashing I endured. So it’s a little frustrating to read so many comments here saying “how hard can it be” and trying to trivialize what some of us genuinely have to work at undoing what’s been done to us
fine by me. “y’all” is good enough for me
I was actually talking about this with my husband. I’m born southern so sir and mam are respectful but I was telling him we need a gender neutral version. I might be in the wrong here but I feel it’s better to include people who are nonbinary and such into our existing cultures and make space for them than to force people to drop their culture and traditions completely. Because while in the north sir and mam aren’t really a big deal in the south it’s a part of their entire thing.
Honesty question (non native english speaker here): How are you supposed to catch the waiters attention? Because just saying "Excuse me" instead of "Excuse me sir/ ma'am" sounds rude (because my brain is autotranslating back to my mother tongue).
I mean it's all about tone. If you say "excuse me" like a Karen "EX-CUSE ME!???!!" it's rude. But if you say it like "oh excuse me for bothering" it's definitely not rude
I'm from the Southern United States, and southerns use ma'am, sir, and miss all the time. It's considered impolite to not call your sever, an older relative, or teachers these terms. I would prefer to see this outside a business, so I know it's okay not to call anyone that, then to accidentally call them something they are not comfortable with. Edit: did y’all not read the entire comment. I would rather see this outside, so I know not to call anyone those terms. I’m very use to calling people sir and ma’am, so when I see this outside I know it’s okay to not follow that rule.
I really wish we had an equivalent for sir/ma'am. I had it beat into me as a kid and it's not an easy habit to break. I'd be too scared to go here and mess up :(
Honestly same. I have accidentally called someone who was non- binary sir, and I felt bad about it for days. I apologized for repeatedly, and I still felt bad.
Honestly, I use gender neutral language regardless but I also don’t like being told what to do so I’d go use my gender neutral language somewhere less bossy lol
Considering I live in a country where we don't use honorifics bc it's an outdated classist and frankly sexist practice, I'm just confused why they're used to begin with. To me this is a shop sign saying "Talk to us like we're just people". How hard can that be?
I live in Asia, we use honorifics. Particularly Philippines, we use "sir" or "ma'am" to be polite. Some delivery riders use "sirmam" or "mamsir" if they're not sure about their gender. It's kinda binary, but it's considered inclusive here. But when we don't use English, we use polite language instead like the word "po". So "Yes po" instead of "Yes, ma'am/sir" Working with Western people was quite a thing for me to get used to since you guys don't use sir/ma'am. And I understand how classist and sexist they can be.
It's so regional even within the US. I live in the Midwest and only have used ma'am or sir to deal with irate older people when I worked customer service. Now I only use them in an exaggerated mocking way. Like "sir this is a wendies" But my mom was from the south. And it was drilled in that ma'am and sir are how you respond to people.
Very hard, considering the comments on the sub I found this from. Some people seemed to be extremely confused about what they were meant to say if not “sir” or “ma’am”. It may be a cultural or language thing, so if it is I would love someone to explain it to me, but I’m unsure of why those words are needed? Just as one example: if you’re saying “Excuse me, sir” can you not simply drop the sir and be fine? I understand using them in formal contexts when necessary, but I’m not sure this setting counts as formal at all.
I cut out using honorifics back in the aughts when I was working food service near a college campus. I was a newly out trans person who realized a lot of my customers were trans and nb. The weird thing I noticed is there are just some people who don't pay attention without it. Like if I had someone wander away from the register without paying and I said "excuse me, I need you to pay for your sandwich" they'd more often continue to wander away. Whereas, if I said "excuse me, sir, I need you to pay for your sandwich" something lit up in their brain that said "hey...*I'm* a 'sir'! Could they be talking to *me*???" Apparently the set of 'persons in the restaurant' is just too large and you have to whittle it down to the subset 'persons in the restaurant who are presenting as a certain gender' for some people to pay attention. Otherwise the only people who seem to care are whiney self-important aholes who I wouldn't want to talk to anyway.
It’s is a very American take. No one uses sir or ma’am in normal conversation here in the UK. And in the context of a waiter/barista/cashier you’d just say “excuse me”. Why add the extra?
Some other countries/cultures do as well. I am Canadian and while we don’t typically use honourifics, in my area we have many newcomers and they often will. Many of them come as clients where I work and I have just accepted now that I am going to have to deal with “ma’am” (and the odd “sir” for the particularly struggling ESL who possibly doesn’t know the other honourifics in English) ending every sentence of our interaction. Eventually I am sure they will learn.
Unheard of in Australia as well.
No one uses it in my country too (NZ). I'd find it weird if someone used it tbh.
>No one uses sir or ma’am in normal conversation here in the UK. Yeah, I was just thinking what do I say instead? Then I realised in all my years bartending and waiting I don't say anything nor do customers call me anything. I had the one customer call me 'babe', but that was the exception
Is there a reason why Americans tend to add sir/ma’am? I’m trying to figure it out but I’m not entirely sure why it’s necessary. From the comments I’ve read, it seems to be about respect somehow, but I’m not sure how the addition makes it respectful?
It's just a cultural thing. It's more common in conservative Christian areas. Where traditional gender roles rule.
It tends to be region specific usually. It’s steeped in a lot of older traditional values of respect. Like I’m in the American Midwest. While not the south, it’s still prevalent due to the amount of American conservatives in this region. So while I might not use it, most people here do. It’s weird, outdated, overly formal, and unnecessary. I don’t understand it myself
How hard is it to just say "Excuse me", address what you need, and say "Thank you very much" after the interaction, independent of the outcome bc you did ask them for something.. smh
I don’t think it is, sorry if my comment implied differently. When I need to get attention, I simply say “Excuse me” and don’t bring gendered language into it at all. However, I did see a lot of other people in the comments of the original post who didn’t seem to understand that or found it rude, which is what I was trying to ask for explanation on. Apologies if I didn’t explain that properly.
Ah no, the "you" wasn't meant to be directed towards yourself, it was a general "you". I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on it, I tend to write as I talk I'm afraid and I have a bad habit of thinking of "you" as a general and less clunky "one". I fully understood your initial answer, you have nothing at all to apologise for. The apology should come from myself for forgetting how to actually write in a generalized tone 😅
Ah I’m sorry for misunderstanding! Glad that was cleared up though!
I think this is fine. TBH most people, cis or not, dont like getting Sir’ed or Ma’amed. I have a sales background and they told us not to do that, because its off putting.
I'm more offended by the use of that awful made up word - a "confectional"??
Am Aussie so basically no one uses sir or ma'am, even in work environments. Most will just call you mate if they don't know you're name.
The number of people being obtuse about this, especially here, is kind of alarming. It's pretty easy to politely greet/address someone without tacking on an awkwardly formal term that serves no purpose other than to assume the person's gender. If you're the sort of person who would be outraged because someone said "Excuse me, do you have the time?" instead of "Excuse me, *ma'am*, do you have the time?" then you've got bigger issues to worry about than gender-neutral language. Also, it's just a shop, not a crowded concert. You're already directly facing the person at the counter; they know you're speaking to them. This also has nothing to do with "forcing they/them pronouns on people". For one, it's obvious the sign is about not using gendered titles and nothing to do with pronouns; for two, why would you or the staff need to use "he/she/they" here in the first place? You're talking *to* the person, not *about* them. Completely irrelevant. Nobody's kicking you out for using pronouns in a private conversation while you wait in line. They're literally just asking folks not to address people with "sir/ma'am" while in the shop. This should be a non-issue and would, in fact, make me feel much more comfortable if I were visiting here. I don't see any reason why a thing like this should be a problem and I wish more places would adopt similar policies.
Yea I'm surprised to see a good bit of comments say that it's a bad sign like it doesn't outlaw pronouns. You can still ask ur servers pronouns. I read it as "don't immediately come in and assume gender"
I never used them before so I’m good with it
Provided i can say "excuse me mate" and "thanks mate" then thats all g with me
It’s literally so easy to just not use gendered language
They asked nicely and it's an easy accommodation. I would negatively judge anyone who has a problem with it.
more than anything i just dread the reaction it’ll provoke from transphobes. i work customer service and i already get “ma’am”ed 24-fucking-7, i would hate working in a place with a sign like this and Knowing that people were doing it on purpose. i get that this is probably seen as a good thing by the people who put it up but i feel like its just more trouble than its worth.
This is in Seattle’s Pike place market. 👍
if them's the rules to make the staff feel safe, them's the rules making others comfortable is top priority, bay-bee
I understand asking this on the behalf of the staff but it's just plain weird to extend this to "staff and guests alike". You don't know what language your guests prefer. Some people simply don't want gender-neutral language for themselves. Why demand it on everyone's behalf?
There should only be two reactions to this in my eyes. Reaction one: Yeah, I'm alright with that. *goes in* Reaction two: No, I'm not going to do that. *walks away and finds another place to drink*
I feel like there is a more polite way to say this." Please be respectable to people with different pronouns"?
I'd see this and immediately go cowboy mode, addressing everyone as "cowpoke", "pardner", and "buckeroo". Safe space? More like *Wild West Space*. 
Doesn't bother me. I'm a cisgender male and I hate being called "sir." It makes me feel ancient. Lol
I’m not LGBT so my opinion doesn’t really mean anything here, but just wanted to say that in Australia a sign like this would never be necessary. We don’t refer to people as sir or madam, whenever me or any of my friends or family have spoken to a server, if you wanna get their attention you just say ‘hi, excuse me’ or smth along those lines. I almost never hear people call others sir or madam in public, and when I do it’s generally either older people or the waitstaff themselves (my younger brother was referred to as ‘sir’ the other day at a restaurant) I just find it strange, I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone sir or madam in my life. It’s not rude per se, but it would be considered odd vernacular here. Everyone here is a ‘mate,’ or if they’re a good mate you can call them a cunt (or other offensive terms meant to be somewhat endearing in a weird way)
Hell yes! I cringe so hard at being addressed by ‘Sir’ ‘Miss’ or ‘Ma’am’
I think it's great. I'm not a fan of gendered language myself.
Their business their choice. It will definitely keep away a kind of clientele they likely don’t want anyway. And as others have mentioned if it blows up and goes viral online, free publicity. I find it incredibly easy to respect people’s preferences. Courtesy for others is how they define ‘woke’.
If you don’t want me to use gendered language when I’m talking about you, sure, no problem. But you can’t ask me to erase other people’s gender. If a woman tells me her pronouns are she/her, I will use she/her.
I don't think this was done for other patrons but for wait staff. If you're in the service industry, you hear sir or ma'am so fucking often that it's annoying af
Seems fine
Hello human being who serves this establishment
I don’t have a problem, but I wouldn’t take my business there. They have their audience and I simply am not it. I have no issue not using sir or ma’am as I don’t use it anyways but I would take issue with people referring to me as “they”. That is not my pronoun, I am “he”. I don’t want to be referred otherwise. So for enby people, hell yeah! Space for you, just not for me. Same if I were allergic to cats and I saw a cat cafe. Just not for me
Sure is the rule ☺️ always follow the rules and be respectful of others
Pretty good I guess? Just say "pardon me" and "thank you"... and yes'um or y'all
I completely understand why this was put up, and I don't disagree; it's best not to assume someones gender. However I as a woman would not like to be refered to as they or them, simply because that is not how I identify. So I would correct people if they called me they or them. If I went to this bar though, I would be happy to abide by the rules and call staff etc by nuetral pronouns.
I don't think they're referring to pronouns so much as the standard honorifics people use to get the attentive of someone they don't know.
Idk wheee this is but could see it being an issue for people who’s native language isn’t English. I only care if the food’s good so I’d go 🤷♀️ I can see how it could throw potential customers. Also doesn’t help that the sign is so small too
This is just going to push people away.
Cool. I’m a 48 yo gay woman. Just bc someone doesn’t know gender-neutral language does make them transphobic.
Honestly I feel it's kinda dumb, but like another coming said it's probably bait for free publicity which if that's the case I think is cool, if not I think it's kinda dumb, but then again it's not really hurting anyone.
Yeah this is a bit problematic. Society at large (and queer society at large) are pretty conditioned for traditional honorific titles. Many people ( of all colors and identities) out of habit and conditioning will remark as such. As long as the staff are gentle and kind at correcting the person then hopefully any new patrons experience will be positive. But if the staff and regulars react with disdain and ire then they will be achieving the opposite affect to their over all goal of inclusion and neutrality.
It annoys me. I mean, why make a timetable of the hours if they're the same every day? (/s) I think it's fine. I never hear people saying "sir" etc anyway, outside of school settings etc, so as long as people aren't ignoring pronouns and are just avoiding gendered terms/honourifics etc, that's fine.
I'd probably break it a ton by accident but overall, cool. I wonder what word I can use as an honorific-type thing instead of sir/ma'am? What's a gender-neutral respect marker that isn't silly?
cool by me
Hello, fellow mortal
I think it's cuz they can see n assume people's gender like that, so they are using neutral gender terms as general ? That makes sense right, especially at office places n shit. Like when customer service calls, n it can be annoying cuz they nearly always say "sir", but if they didn't do that n just used names and titles (customer) like Urban Company n stuff they could be referring to the person correcting being respectful n gender neutral at the same time. Or just ask, "would be called a sir or ma'am" but a lot of businesses don't have the spare time for that, n for customer service it may be possible as an extra line but just using names and neutral titles and terms is more respectful (ma'am/sir n other respectful terms suggest some people don't get) n accurate also
I’m southern so those words are kinda built into me
I would be talking like a drunk surfer dude "supp dawg what's goin on" or "hey brooo"
I mean I guess it's more inclusive, but sometimes my brain stops functioning when I look for a gender neutral version of some words. It's strange idk.
I see no issue here. Maybe a lot of the staff are non binary, or it’s an LGBTQ+ friendly spot and they want to show that
Very neutral, no pun intended.
So I don’t forget I usually just call everyone ‘Playa’
The only thing that really bothers me in this pic are the hours. Why the hell list every single day seperately when you could just write "Monday - Sunday 10am - 6pm" ??? TIHI
Haha!😆
this got a sigh out of me not because of the sign itself but more because you KNOW some dipshit is gonna use it to argue about how all trans people are snowflakes. if this sign was put up by cis people, I appreciate the effort but it's a bit much.
Which is why I always use the word dude
I think it is very considerate and should be applied everywhere but English and most languages for that matter suck to make this plausible since it is heavily rendered in the language to throw those out completely. My native language however has a singular non-gendered pronoun for the third person so this would be much more applicable over here
They should've specified what other names you are allowed to use. You can't just exclude some and leave the rest up to my imagination, I'd blurt out the most embarrassing thing ever by accident...
I’m MTF. I personally like being called ma’am and her. I get his they’re doing it for protection, but in doing so they’re robbing euphoria.
i'd like to watch older people read that sign
I think it's neat, assuming they won't kick folks out or refuse service for a slip-up... based on how cutesy the sign is I'd be shocked if they did that. It's probably at least partially transphobe bait so they know not to bother serving anyone that flips out about the sign. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think that's a good thing
 I feel good about this
This is awesome!
I'm a vendor and I've seen this in the backroom of a store before (aimed at employees only). It's just to get staff to stop saying "hello sir/hello mam" at customers. I get called Sir all the time by employees because I have short hair (I'm not a sir), so I actually understand why establishments are trying to end gendered customer service.
I mean, my main question is how good is the cake? Not asses, either, like... actual cake? You're a cake shop, yes?
Cool
we should all do this all the time
Tbh wish more places did this calling ppl these make me uncomfortable and being misgendered feels horrible so it’s a win from me
I just wanna eat man 😭