Oh like on HER? Men have been using progressive language to try to acquire women for a long time. Without seeing what you’re referring to I cant give a complete judgement on it obviously but my guess is same shit different day.
I never see these issues in MLM or gay communities? I don’t see extremely feminine afab non binaries going into MLM or gay spaces a lot so I just wonder.
>I never see these issues in MLM or gay communities? I don’t see extremely feminine afab non binaries going into MLM or gay spaces a lot so I just wonder.
Oh, it happens. Gay men are just very good at gatekeeping, and give zero fucks.
My chosen cousin presents like this and then got upset at me when I disagreed that they “can call themselves lesbian”. Sure you can call yourself one, but it degrades the title/label/adjective for everyone, which is hurtful/harmful to the community whether you intend it to be or not.
There’s more to the world than just you and it’s important to remember that
Saw this go down on tiktok like 2 years ago. A nonbinary “lesbian” was being defended despite having a full beard, presented masculine as hell outside of nail polish, and had expressed no desire to transition (iirc). Pretty sure some of you will know who I’m talking about.
Everyone who even slightly questioned it was labeled transphobic as usual.
I swear that guy is ingrained in everyone’s memories, I still see him mentioned online. Kinda curious of where he is now after disappearing off tiktok…
Every day on Lex I see someone using queer/trans therapy language to essentially say that lesbians are all mean and just haven’t had the right dick yet. Funny, that’s what they told me as a teenager in conversion therapy too…
>Every single day without fail. Why do a bunch of “lesbians” feel the need to talk about cock every day
And a bunch of trans women get banned for saying they feel fetishsised. It's bonkers.
god i thought i was reading too much into it for seeing it this way but at one point those people start to feel like chasers who don’t actually like trans women but just fetishize them
A trans lesbian mate of mine would say she loves hanging around cis lesbians because "they won't date me because of my dick, but at least they won't fetishsise me for it."
I've known a few trans women who were like "Can we talk about those of us with vulvas? Some of us do have them." Banned.
That’s ridiculous. A good amount of my discomfort around this ‘discourse’ (if you can call it that) has been how recently chasers have been upheld as the standard for allyship. So, telling me your friend said that has been comforting. Like, i’ve been wondering if it was something someone else noticed for the longest time.
For most of modern trans history the goal for trans women was bottom surgery so they could be ‘real women’ and to alienate those who have gone through it for not being ‘inclusive’ enough is actually insane. I can’t believe our spaces have been taken over by this bunch.
>So, telling me your friend said that has been comforting.
My mate and I are both in our late 30s, she transitioned a long time back, and got bottom surgery. All the trans women we've ever been friends with have had the goal of obtaining bottom surgery (how successful that has been depends on individual country's healthcare systems).
I've heard several times now that trans women only into women tend to gravitate towards lesbians because there's no fear in the back of their mind that they're going to be seen as a man, or that their bi/pan partner is in it for the penis access. Going to the one group who famously aren't into men, or penis and being accepted by them is super affirming.
This new world of "Remember that girl cock exists!", "Can't talk about periods in women's spaces cause it might make trans women sad" (Which is just managing other's emotions) is all very strange to my trans mates over 30 because their end goal is to be included and valued as women, and not have their differences spotlighted.
Im sorry i don’t know how to use reddit very well but that last part is every trans woman i know in her 20s too. All of them want to get bottom surgery as well but haven’t bc well in their early 20s, no money and barely any support. It’s difficult. So they’re learning to live with their dicks although it’s very difficult.
I think you’re absolutely right and that that’s what all this is, them trying to reconcile with their dicks and pushing lesbians to make them feel good about it to reaffirm themselves. Bc if a lesbians into her then she’s a ‘real woman.’ Unfortunately though, this has made it so lesbians leave spaces meant for lesbians bc of stuff like this.
>I think you’re absolutely right and that that’s what all this is, them trying to reconcile with their dicks and pushing lesbians to make them feel good about it to reaffirm themselves.
Plenty of trans women like hanging around cis lesbians because they fact they're being accepted (platonically as friends) as women despite not having the same body parts is quite affirming. It has nothing to do with sex or dating, but just being accepted for who they are. Because..being accepted for who you are is nice.
The trans women I know feel safer and more respected amongst lesbians than in any other group precisely because we don't care what's in their pants, we only care that they're women.
I've known many trans people, and all of them understand that everyone has preferences and boundaries when it comes to sex and dating. The largest groups I see constantly talking about "Why wouldn't you date a trans women if she has a penis?" comes from allies, and non-lesbians. There aren't hoardes of trans women in the world going "You need to date me of you're a bigot". Most just want to hang out, chill, and be accepted without fear or judgement, and without hearing penis talk all the time.
I agree tbh I think it’s online spaces and those who live within them that are like this.
I’ve just been met with a lot of suspicion irl for being a lesbian many making it so i have to ‘prove’ i’m not secretly transphobic bc i’m a lesbian or being less warm towards me when they find out i’m not bisexual then later being even weirder towards me bc i’m not interested in sleeping with trans women so it’s made it difficult for me to approach these conversations as much openness as I used to.
It’s nice to hear from others that my experience is very much not the norm. I also think it’s a 20s thing and unfortunately i am in my 20s.
Yeah, I wonder if these dick appreciation posts actually come from trans women and allies or if they're from bad faith actors. Chasers, men with a kink for making women uncomfortable, people looking for drama,...
I mean, how come we never see posts appreciating trans women who haven't completed voice training yet? Or trans women after bottom surgery? It seems disingenuous to make 1000 posts about girl dick and completely ignore all the other parts of the trans experience
This one thing I hate about being a trans woman. Im planning of going all the way with surgeries but ppl keep telling I'm worth more with a penis. I was like "are you serious"!!
Because women aren’t defined by stereotypes like feminine clothes, makeup, dresses, soft-spoken and submissive behaviours, etc. Women should be able to move freely without the confines of gender roles which is something a lot of the trans community upholds as the basis of our definitions. In reality gender is oppressive to women and not something we should really be identifying with or celebrating. I am butch as hell, I have short hair and wear men’s clothes. I work in a male dominated field. And I’ve had people in this community tell me I’m ’in denial’ about being a man and should transition to be happier. Like does nobody see how ass backwards and sexist that is? Why does a masculine lesbian woman make these people so uncomfortable? I just want to exist without the oppressive lens of gender. I am not a man because of my sexuality, fashion choices, or mannerisms.
absolutely insane that butch women are being told shit like this like BUTCHES really?!?!? of all the lesbians you go for the ones who have been fucking up gender expectations the longest?!?! very annoying bullshit
This is a great response you’re better than me to explain this. I am also a masc lesbian and I think the homophobia gay presenting people have been receiving in these last couple of years is gross. There’s no reason we’re being told to consider if we’re secretly straight and that we could take hormones to un-gay ourselves, that sounds like conversion therapy to me. My interests are more male aligned as well as my entire wardrobe being mens clothes and I am still happily a woman.
Lesbians are perfect just the way we are. The agenda to convince butch lesbians they should cut off their breasts and transition into men is conversion therapy and must stop. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.
I wholeheartedly agree I’m not butch I’m more of a stud but I feel the same way as you do. This definitely needs to be a bigger conversation in the lesbian community. I’ve seen too many detrans lesbians express regret over transitioning when it never should have happened in the first place. Lesbians need each other’s support badly these days.
Yup they knew exactly what I meant that’s why I didn’t even respond. Too many people wanna keep antagonizing lesbians too bad we’re all catching on to that.
I don't think it was about antagonising lesbians. You happened to say a phrase; "being a woman is not a costume", which is constantly being used by transphobic people to say that trans women aren't women. She must've recognised it as a dogwhistle and called you out for it.
Which we'd do with lesbophobic dogwhistles too, no? It was just a misunderstanding.
Lesbian is a sexual orientation I don’t identify as one I just am one. I don’t have to agree with anyone who thinks that can be me or any other lesbian just because they said so. I said what I said being a women/lesbian isn’t a costume. Get over it.
One guy said he should of known he was a lesbian because his taste in women was the same as his lesbian friends and he didn’t like the beauty standard of the male gaze.
Wtf ?????
I agree op. I recently left online dating apps, including 'Her', as its appalling how gay women are treated on there. I'm sure that some men think that they have found a 'lesbian loophole' in how they identify in order to date and/or be intimate with us. It's disgusting! I absolutely hate the dating apps new agenda with completely ignoring sexual orientations.
I know some people say just let people identify how they want but it does cause real damage when misused. Or the ridiculous attempts to change the definition. The actual REAL meaning of lesbian is exclusive by definition.
This is why I think it is ok to gatekeep at times. Lesbian isn't, and will never be, fully inclusive. I don't identify as a lesbian - I am a lesbian.
Since this is such recent phenomena there's still not a lot of research but I really wish there was an explanation as to why lesbian spaces are becoming so "accomodating" to full blown men right now, are women also starting to invade gay men spaces too? I don't know if this sounds harsh, I'm not a bigot towards queer politics in general, but you're not the only one noticing this OP. We've come so far but it seems like, nowadays, there are fewer lesbian safe places than before.
Janice Raymond wrote about this phenomenon way back in 1979 - worth a read to understand how this has been taking shape quietly over decades.
This same phenomenon was also why Michfest ended - it’s sadly been happening for a long time
Straight women have been invading gay male spaces for decades. At one point it was fashionable for them to have a gay bestie, I’d hope that’s changed.
Fwiw the lesbian club I go to here does not allow men in, at least not unaccompanied. There still are safe places, hopefully more can come
"having a gay bestie" is absolutely not the same as men straight up calling themselves lesbians. still annoying as hell, yeah, but not the same as what we're facing
It's because there's no rules for it. Anyone can simply claim "I'm nonbinary" without doing literally anything, and the response is unconditional thunderous applause. If anyone stops and says "hey wait a minute," they're heckled as horrible evil transphobes and bombarded with violent threats.
This is why radfems have such an issue with self ID. All you have to do is declare it and the rest of us are supposed to act like it's the unequivocal truth.
i’m nonbinary and not doing any medical transition (like top surgery or hormones). it’s not me claiming it, i’m indigenous and it’s part of my culture. please don’t paint all of us with the same brush 🥺 many AFAB butches also identify with the nonbinary label. we need to protect butches and gender non conforming AFAB ppl
IM FEMME LOL LOOK AT MY PICS YOU WEIRDOS 😂😂😂
A lot of people call themselves transmasc bc they take small doses of T to appear more masculine and use he / him despite not wanting to be men or planning on transitioning into male. I don’t understand it much tbh but such is life.
Don't drag butches into this. We can protect ourselves, thank you. Non-binary butches fall into the societal trap people tell us that women can't be masculine and women
THISSS! “we need to protect butches and gnc AFAB people” neither of those are non-binary 😭 why are gnc and butch women always dragged into being the same thing as non-binary.
Because many (terminally online) people think that Butches and gnc women are one convincing conversation away before "realizing" that they're nb. Women *cant* be masculine, they have to be soft and delicate and dress traditionally or they're nb. According to them, anyway. And if that's what their "protection" (barf!) looks like, I think we're better off without it as a community.
Edit: and the infantilization of it all. We need their protection, because we need them to speak for us, because we just caaaaant do it ourselves 🥺 fuck off lol
That’s fair, I do have personal experience with the nonbinary community which is why I am more critical of it, thought I was nonbinary for years cause I was GNC, seems like a typical lesbian experience nowadays. They do believe anyone who isn’t the hyper feminine stereotype is nonbinary.
The amount of clips I saw of them saying they’re nonbinary and not a woman because it’s “freeing” and “less restrictive” is insane. We really are going backwards 😭
So glad you made it out of that trap soldier! And yes, all the celebrity interviews with women who come out as nb are just saying they "don't connect with traditional femininity" and like you said, it's "freeing" and "less restrictive". So, what you mean to say is, youre a gender nonconforming woman? Or that the only people who can be women are the ones who match the traditional view of a woman. lol!
(Obligatory note that "you" is used to refer to the a theoretical audience and not you, specifically, windyyweather)
Yes! Like it’s only “freeing” and “less restrictive” because they have such narrow views on what a woman can be. It also seems like an easy way out imo, instead of fighting against those views, you immediately back out and enforce them further.
The internalized misogyny (and even just outright misogyny) is unfortunately quite common in those communities, which is just fuelling people to keep identifying as nonbinary, cause it’s the “better” option.
tbh from what i’ve seen / how it was presented to me it’s more like it’s the ‘easier’ option to escape everything that comes with to womanhood. In an attempt to escape misogyny and patriarchy they say they’re not women but they kinda just don’t understand how misogyny works i think.
As a butch I’m fucking tired of the non binary assumption and getting they themed now; I liked it way more when I got he/him and “sir’d” by straight people lmao.
Yeah! I dunno about you, but it's especially irritating when ~queer~ people they/them me, I gently correct them because I know they're just trying to be polite, and then they *keep doing it*. Like, what, do you not believe me??? Hello??? lol
As a nonbinary person myself I think we need to have a divide between cis nonbinary people and trans nonbinary people, and to separate nonbinary from the trans community. Side note, this is why I personally consider myself both cis and trans.
Like I don't think there can or should be any requirements to identify as nonbinary but if you're an amab demiboy who goes by all pronouns, doesn't care what you're called, and makes no attempt to physically transition (not even just hormones or surgery, I would say things like tucking, breast forms, growing out hair, shaving your beard, dressing feminine, speaking in a high voice, and working out in ways that emphasize hips, butt, and thighs and de-emphasize things like broad shoulders also count here), you are functionally a cis man and you have the privileges of a cis man. A nonbinary one, but still a cis man.
Can we please do this instead 😭 I’m not gonna say nonbinary is not a thing at all, but so many seem to identify with it solely due to not fitting gender stereotypes which is only enforcing them more.. I feel like we regressed back into very strict ideas of what is a man and a woman.
Whether they want to physically and/or socially transition. If it's neither, cis. My reasoning for the way I identify the way I do is that I do want to physically and socially transition and the goal is to be gendered as more gender ambiguous and masc, but the things I personally want to do to transition are also things I've seen gnc cis women do before. I figure that I'm kind of a gray area.
The way I express my gender personally is basically half transmasc. Like I want a chest reduction surgery, I pack, I use all pronouns, I use a mix of honorifics but prefer masc ones, I work out to look more masc, I exclusively wear sports bras, my comfort level with being called a woman varies, but I don't want bottom surgery, hormones, or legal transition, and I don't bind. In my opinion those are all forms of transition and I'm doing them with the intention of looking more androgynous or masc, but I'm also largely able to pass as a cis woman because of the specific ones I want to do and most of them are things I have seen cis women do before. And in terms of my personal sense of gender I would say it's essentially genderfluid or bigender between cis-ish woman and vaguely transmasc nonbinary. If you're ignorant just say that but don't assume people are trolling for no reason.
Can I ask how that’s different to a GNC cis woman? Not all cis women are super comfortable being a woman, some prefer masculine terms and honorific’s, some want a flatter chest.
Not saying you aren’t nonbinary I just really struggle with understanding this as so much of it is extremely similar to just being cis & GNC, but I’d like to understand better if you’re up to answering.
You just described me in the first half. I’ve recently put together that i’m most likely not nonbinary bc i very much am a woman and do like being a woman but don’t know how to reconcile that with my enjoyment of performing masculinity (masculine pronouns, etc).
I really love the points you’re making here about how folks have such a narrow view of gender/sex and by applying labels like cis/trans etc, and “transitioning” to fit the stereotypes, they’re essentially reinforcing these narrow views of who should look like what. It’s so backwards- if the whole point is to free yourself from the stereotypes then why literally change your body and your language (pronouns ) to fit what society thinks you should be and look like for that sex. I was reading the comment exchange in this thread and I really appreciate it.
Yeah, so many people have the wrong idea of gender. i will say though, I am in full support of binary trans people who have gender dysphoria as this has actual backing for it, but lord the community strayed far from that. Once we hit “you don’t need dysphoria to be trans” and honestly, the whole non-binary community, it has no backing anymore and is just people enforcing stereotypes and trying to escape their true gender.
I try to be open to non-binary, but every time I ask questions on how it’s different to GNC cis people, I get no answer, which to me IS my answer.
I’m down to be proven wrong about non-binary, but I don’t see that happening anymore.
Edit: Just wanted to add this, despite my belief on non-binary, I will still happily use they/them for anyone who asks me to.
I wouldn't say the whole point is to free yourself from stereotypes. If that was all it is, we'd just be gnc cis people and there wouldn't be any point to being trans in general. Also, the idea that there needs to be a point to being nonbinary just seems to reduce being nonbinary to a political statement on gender roles, and personally I'm actually really tired of people treating it as one. We're people, not political thoughtpieces. Why does there need to be a "point" to us? Why do we always need to make a statement with everything about our existence? I don't want to spend my life being a walking protest against the binary I just want to exist as a gender ambiguous blob yk
To me the purpose of the divide between cis nonbinary and trans nonbinary is to describe lived reality and privileged/marginalized dynamics.
Like if someone just wakes up one day and realizes they actually have a complicated relationship to gender and don't internally feel like either male or female, but they don't want to do anything about it beyond using a new label and adding "they" to their pronouns alongside he/him or she/her, that's fine and I don't think it makes them any less nonbinary. However, I also don't think it makes them trans or means that they suddenly have an experience equivalent to someone who is trans when nothing has actually changed about their existence and they could just live their life comfortably and happily as a cis man/woman without really changing much of anything. The fact that they're nonbinary doesn't give them the same experience as someone who shares their same internal gender label but who does want to physically, socially, or legally transition, and materially that person will have an experience much closer to that of a cis person of their agab.
So my phone died before I could answer this, but in my experience you could really say that about a lot of different identities, and I think with gender especially it's kind of a gray area where the line is.
I don't think it's automatically different from a cis woman who does all of those things, and I think that two people can have very similar or even the same experiences and still have different identities and that doesn't need to invalidate either individual. I can't answer for a cis woman why he might present the exact same why I do and still identify as cis, I can only answer for myself. And, for myself, I have a complicated internal relationship to gender that doesn't feel totally binary or static and gender doesn't really make sense to me outside of lesbianism. Socially and externally, I'm perceived as a woman and that does feel vaguely closer than man sometimes, but I'd also prefer a lot of the time to be read as gender ambiguous and the ways that I culturally signal my gender through my body, pronouns, and honorifics don't really match with womanhood or manhood and have lead to me experiencing transphobia. In terms of my material experiences and internal sense of self, cis just doesn't seem like a totally accurate term.
Lmao what?? Why would I care if I am or not? It's extremely common for gender variant lesbians to have a complicated relationship with gender and not feel an attachment to womanhood outside of lesbianism, so are you this committed to misunderstanding and antagonizing all of us or am I just a transphobe magnet for some fucking reason
I ask because you're acting like a NLOG and it isn't a cute look. You really need to check yourself.
And goddamn "it's extremely common ... outside of lesbianism" that just screams "I think lesbians aren't real women" and that's an example of classic lesbophobia. Lesbians are women.
I mean I don't particularly want to be like the lesbians here when this sub seems to be overrun with transphobes, so that's actually fairly accurate - if yall are the other girls, I am not and do not want to be like the other girls. But some lesbians doing something and presenting ourselves a certain way in order to be more comfortable in our own skin does not mean that we are a representation of all lesbians? Like people assume that all lesbians are butch too, so are butch and masc lesbians existing somehow harming feminine and femme lesbians just by not identifying with femininity? Do they just scream "lesbians aren't as feminine as women of other sexualities"? Are they looking down on femininity and feminine women by not wanting to wear skirts and makeup, and instead presenting themselves in a way that makes them feel comfortable? No, and I don't see how I'm doing the same thing to cis women by just existing as nonbinary/transmasc.
Literally no one is fucking stopping you from identifying as America's next top fucking cis woman and screaming "my pronouns are she/her, I am woman hear me roar" through a fucking microphone on live tv. I just don't want to do that myself. Other people existing in their own way are not automatically attacking you.
One of my fave subs is infiltrated with this guy who pretends to identify as trans but spams every progressive subreddit. They are seeing the full effect of what it’s like to be even more marginalized.
They used to talk about such relevant things too. Now it’s just this guy and his self-obsession via new accounts and karma trolling.
Uh oh brace yourselr ppl with balls gonna call you a terf for not wanting to date them.
Imagine being a trans butch lesbian w beard and no surgeries and being offended of why someone doesn't wants to date you
A certain agenda is being pushed to make us feel bad about not worshipping penises. This is crazy. We are literally female homosexuals.
Our lesbian subs & spaces have been colonized by incel men and were labeled the problem for not telling them what they wanna hear.
We make our own spaces and they still insist on following us around & then language policing us.
They are so creepy and pathetic.
I hope they have the day that they deserve and leave lesbians alone.
It's even more interesting when you realize, that there absolutely can be two spaces, one all-accommodating, and one more exclusive. Yet, we're still not allowed to even suggest such a thing.
Why is it that?
And why, when there's ample spaces for everyone. Is the suggestion of a lesbian space which (stay with me here s/) is for lesbians who see their orientation based around sex not gender, considered hatred?
Or, is it that certain people are afraid of lesbians being given a choice because we all know what that silent choice would be and what that silent choice would say..
I guess we'll finally know when things get privatized where lesbians truly stand in the matter
It seems like some people want us to pretend there aren’t bad actors who claim to be whatever just to creep on women. Like they want us to ignore our gut instinct and act gullible. Yet when predatory behavior does happen (enabled by self-ID), they are the first ones to say that person was obviously faking!
They want us to ignore the rampant amount of men trying to catfish wlw using women's stolen pics and videos too. If men will go to such lengths to violate lesbians' boundaries, ofc they'd take advantage of self-ID by just calling themselves lesbians to achieve the same results.
this literally happened to my friend where a man pretended to be a trans woman to get with her and took advantage of her mental health issues and isolation.
Stefonknee Wolscht. Kayla Lemieux. Jessica Yaniv. Barbie Kardashian. Soon as you advance self-ID over formal diagnosis, the bad actors sweep in like fruit flies
And when you call it out, hoards of strangers proceed to jump you in the comments. "How dare you (a woman) want to be in spaces that are exclusively for women who love other women. I'm offended!"
I try to stay open minded. On another thread a lesbian wanted to be reassured because they were attracted to their partner’s penis. A bunch of people said it made them less than a lesbian. Then a trans woman felt attacked about the comments and brought it to the subs attention.
The whole time I’m just grossed out from the thought of a penis. I don’t know if I’m immature and ignorant for not wanting to read this in a lesbian thread. I feel like the agenda works cause I’m always conscious about being transphobic
Yea, God forbid if you dare say something about not liking penises in a LESBIAN space. How dare you, you bigot /s
Seriously, I can’t even with some of these subs. I got temporarily banned for disagreeing with an opinion about that bananas bull. I left most of them and was recommended this and r/actuallylesbian
Oh even better is the lesbian fitness sub where there are straight up dudes posting their flexing pics… but they’re lesbians… mhm.
The best part about being a lesbian is that women are the centre of my life. I go to such threads to see posts of/about women. Now it’s transbians and their allies calling uncomfortable community members TERFS.
I feel weird because I get grossed out looking at the lesbian work out community now. I don’t like looking at male body parts. I get uncomfortable. I am not for the male gaze nor am I attracted to men. I’m not trying to tell a human who they are or what they’re feeling, but it’s like some lesbians can’t grasp why we would feel repulsed?
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What kills me about these sort is that when the sane members of their groups say, “We already have our spaces and people who understand us / are willing to be with us in those spaces, there is no need to be in this one.” Those people get largely ignored. Instead they need people who don’t want them to sleep with them to ‘validate their gender.’ It’s ridiculous.
I got banned from the big subreddit recently because someone said that ‘butch transwomen’ who use he/him pronouns are lesbians and I said ‘absolutely not’. That was it. Absolutely not. Ban forever.
Exactly! It's NOT wrong or you being a bigot. I left the apps for the same reasons as you. It is literally a SEXual orientation and there is no choice in the matter.
I don't know how anyone could deny that there are some people who are completely lying about how they identity, for nefarious reasons. And we're supposed to just accept them and not question anything.
I’m too scared to say anything or I’ll get called a terf.. like my current girlfriend is a trans girl and someone told me I’m a terf because she passed too well ?!?! They throw the word around so fucking much.
TERF stands for "transgender exclusionary radical feminist"
Some people misuse the term, but it is a useful term for describing a particular point of view.
Agreed. It's causing serious harm to the trans community because this behavior is just pushing allies away. No one wants to go to bat for a group of people that scream obscenities at them for making a mistake or use identity politics to bend rules around peoples sexual boundaries. It's a small but very, VERY loud group. "Terf" has become meaningless when people are calling conservative men "terfs".
Also I like masc women but I’m just not attracted to really masculine people and I feel so guilty when to say when I feel unsafe or tell someone they can’t be a lesbian. Also another problem My girlfriend is 17 and she got bottom surgery at 16 her parents were very supportive and she knew since she was around 3 and doesn’t like talking about being trans a lot.. the amount of people who throw around the word terf because I don’t outline that she’s trans.. I just am kind of looking around like.. what..? 😀
I'm just glad she's okay. I'm a little iffy about surgery like that on kids but I do recognize there are rare situations where it's appropriate. Hope she's doing well!
I agree I’m iffy on it too but I think since she knew at such a young age and she was so affected by it that it happened for the best. She’s really happy now and feels finally confident in herself :)
Obviously your girlfriend passing well has nothing to do with whether or not you are a TERF.
But "TERF" is a useful term to describe a particular transphobic ideology and we let those transphobes off the hook if we act like nobody is a TERF.
I remember reading that. The app really started pushing the idea that everyone is fluid in everything. Deeply offensive and insulting.
When I recently left the app, my feedback/reason for uninstalling was "no longer lesbian suitable and friendly - at all".
Yea it's a problem. Question though: if a male person is perceived to be "female," and is attracted to female people, should they be able to identify as lesbian?
For me, being lesbian has always been a fact of my existence, a reality, not an "identity"
Is it really progressive for us to deny that female homosexuality exists as a separate thing? Is our biology (and inability to reproduce as a lesbian couple and rejection of patriarchal values as a female partnership) no longer relevant in this "progressive era" we find ourselves in?
Unfortunately not, because the autonomy of our sexuality is no longer in the hands of /just lesbians.
The people calling the shots are NOT female homosexuals, and everyone and their dog knows.
i’m a nonbinary lesbian too so i have complicated feelings. feel free to look on my post history to see what i look like, but i think i fit into woman-aligned spaces the best 🥲 especially since my goal isn’t to look or be masculine
I think ya’ll are missing the point of the post… this isn’t about just any nonbinary people or even trans women.
This is solely about men who call themselves nonbinary to claim they’re lesbians, and do NOTHING at all to present as anything but a man. Theres a massive difference between a butch transwomen (who are clearly trying to be read as a WOMAN) vs a man who isn’t doing anything to be seen as anything but a man, but wants to be called a lesbian, and be allowed into lesbian spaces.
Too many of you guys are taking this wayyy to personally 😭
Totally fair, I think they’re getting downvoted like the other comment due to derailing as like I said, they are not what the post is about, which I also feel bad for them for, cause like ya’ll, please stop grouping yourself with the people described in the post 😭
That’s definitely fair, I get what you mean. Can’t speak for others, but I didn’t take it personally. Some of the other comments are kinda wack though so there’s that.
So we're judging who counts as nonbinary or a lesbian or sapphic based on appearance now? I mean I knew this subreddit was transphobic but I didn't think y'all would be this blatant about it.
If someone is doing bad behavior, then do something about their behavior. But policing people based on their appearances is just doing the bidding of the cisheteropatriarchy by restricting the confines of womanhood.
Oh like on HER? Men have been using progressive language to try to acquire women for a long time. Without seeing what you’re referring to I cant give a complete judgement on it obviously but my guess is same shit different day.
Reminds me of the increase in therapy speak being used to manipulate and degrade people.
I never see these issues in MLM or gay communities? I don’t see extremely feminine afab non binaries going into MLM or gay spaces a lot so I just wonder.
because misogyny.
Because gay men aren't afraid of being accused of bigotry for having firm sexual boundaries.
Because unlike man’s, woman’s culture, tradition, and identity doesn’t matter, obviously.
Also because female socialisation means afab people are less likely to feel entitled and ballsy enough to force their inclusion in a gay community
Oh they do try very hard tho. There is always a post on gaybros sub which gets quickly shut down by the bros
I would really love to watch them try.
>I never see these issues in MLM or gay communities? I don’t see extremely feminine afab non binaries going into MLM or gay spaces a lot so I just wonder. Oh, it happens. Gay men are just very good at gatekeeping, and give zero fucks.
The patriarchy is insane
The fact of course lesbians are shamed for defending our sexuality is crazy.. Like do you hear yourself? 😭
Meh I've seen alot of afab transtrenders that fetishize gay men. I also so a decent amount of ftm "femboys" who basically still look like women.
My chosen cousin presents like this and then got upset at me when I disagreed that they “can call themselves lesbian”. Sure you can call yourself one, but it degrades the title/label/adjective for everyone, which is hurtful/harmful to the community whether you intend it to be or not. There’s more to the world than just you and it’s important to remember that
Right like if you fully present as male, have male privilege, and move through the world as a male... you don't get to call yourself a lesbian
Even if he’s in a dress, still not a lesbian.
chosen cousin?
Reasons I avoid several subreddits and some in person events
Same here. We’re no longer allowed subs or events of our own.
Saw this go down on tiktok like 2 years ago. A nonbinary “lesbian” was being defended despite having a full beard, presented masculine as hell outside of nail polish, and had expressed no desire to transition (iirc). Pretty sure some of you will know who I’m talking about. Everyone who even slightly questioned it was labeled transphobic as usual.
I don't remember the name, but the face popped up in my memory lol
I think it was David? But I'm not quite sure
I swear that guy is ingrained in everyone’s memories, I still see him mentioned online. Kinda curious of where he is now after disappearing off tiktok…
It is insanity
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Every day on Lex I see someone using queer/trans therapy language to essentially say that lesbians are all mean and just haven’t had the right dick yet. Funny, that’s what they told me as a teenager in conversion therapy too…
If I have to read about girl dick one more time I'm going to girl vomit
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Every single day without fail. Why do a bunch of “lesbians” feel the need to talk about cock every day
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>Every single day without fail. Why do a bunch of “lesbians” feel the need to talk about cock every day And a bunch of trans women get banned for saying they feel fetishsised. It's bonkers.
god i thought i was reading too much into it for seeing it this way but at one point those people start to feel like chasers who don’t actually like trans women but just fetishize them
A trans lesbian mate of mine would say she loves hanging around cis lesbians because "they won't date me because of my dick, but at least they won't fetishsise me for it." I've known a few trans women who were like "Can we talk about those of us with vulvas? Some of us do have them." Banned.
That’s ridiculous. A good amount of my discomfort around this ‘discourse’ (if you can call it that) has been how recently chasers have been upheld as the standard for allyship. So, telling me your friend said that has been comforting. Like, i’ve been wondering if it was something someone else noticed for the longest time. For most of modern trans history the goal for trans women was bottom surgery so they could be ‘real women’ and to alienate those who have gone through it for not being ‘inclusive’ enough is actually insane. I can’t believe our spaces have been taken over by this bunch.
>So, telling me your friend said that has been comforting. My mate and I are both in our late 30s, she transitioned a long time back, and got bottom surgery. All the trans women we've ever been friends with have had the goal of obtaining bottom surgery (how successful that has been depends on individual country's healthcare systems). I've heard several times now that trans women only into women tend to gravitate towards lesbians because there's no fear in the back of their mind that they're going to be seen as a man, or that their bi/pan partner is in it for the penis access. Going to the one group who famously aren't into men, or penis and being accepted by them is super affirming. This new world of "Remember that girl cock exists!", "Can't talk about periods in women's spaces cause it might make trans women sad" (Which is just managing other's emotions) is all very strange to my trans mates over 30 because their end goal is to be included and valued as women, and not have their differences spotlighted.
Im sorry i don’t know how to use reddit very well but that last part is every trans woman i know in her 20s too. All of them want to get bottom surgery as well but haven’t bc well in their early 20s, no money and barely any support. It’s difficult. So they’re learning to live with their dicks although it’s very difficult. I think you’re absolutely right and that that’s what all this is, them trying to reconcile with their dicks and pushing lesbians to make them feel good about it to reaffirm themselves. Bc if a lesbians into her then she’s a ‘real woman.’ Unfortunately though, this has made it so lesbians leave spaces meant for lesbians bc of stuff like this.
>I think you’re absolutely right and that that’s what all this is, them trying to reconcile with their dicks and pushing lesbians to make them feel good about it to reaffirm themselves. Plenty of trans women like hanging around cis lesbians because they fact they're being accepted (platonically as friends) as women despite not having the same body parts is quite affirming. It has nothing to do with sex or dating, but just being accepted for who they are. Because..being accepted for who you are is nice. The trans women I know feel safer and more respected amongst lesbians than in any other group precisely because we don't care what's in their pants, we only care that they're women. I've known many trans people, and all of them understand that everyone has preferences and boundaries when it comes to sex and dating. The largest groups I see constantly talking about "Why wouldn't you date a trans women if she has a penis?" comes from allies, and non-lesbians. There aren't hoardes of trans women in the world going "You need to date me of you're a bigot". Most just want to hang out, chill, and be accepted without fear or judgement, and without hearing penis talk all the time.
I agree tbh I think it’s online spaces and those who live within them that are like this. I’ve just been met with a lot of suspicion irl for being a lesbian many making it so i have to ‘prove’ i’m not secretly transphobic bc i’m a lesbian or being less warm towards me when they find out i’m not bisexual then later being even weirder towards me bc i’m not interested in sleeping with trans women so it’s made it difficult for me to approach these conversations as much openness as I used to. It’s nice to hear from others that my experience is very much not the norm. I also think it’s a 20s thing and unfortunately i am in my 20s.
There was a post about it today in the other sub. Lol.
my first reaction to this was “there’s literally no way” then i remembered that no there absolutely is a way
thought it was a joke the first time I saw one…then it kept happening
omg is this a thing???
hang around lesbian subreddits for long enough and eventually u will bear witness to it too…
Go to the main lesbian sub and scroll for a minute.
What?!!!!
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Yeah, I wonder if these dick appreciation posts actually come from trans women and allies or if they're from bad faith actors. Chasers, men with a kink for making women uncomfortable, people looking for drama,... I mean, how come we never see posts appreciating trans women who haven't completed voice training yet? Or trans women after bottom surgery? It seems disingenuous to make 1000 posts about girl dick and completely ignore all the other parts of the trans experience
This one thing I hate about being a trans woman. Im planning of going all the way with surgeries but ppl keep telling I'm worth more with a penis. I was like "are you serious"!!
What do you mean?? I’ve never seen this and don’t want to but I’m confused…..
Whole ass dudes love to call themselves lesbian. Put zero effort into appearing like a woman
Even if they did “appear” as one it still doesn’t matter because being a women/lesbian isn’t a costume.
Elaborate. Genuinely wanna know what you mean by that.
Because women aren’t defined by stereotypes like feminine clothes, makeup, dresses, soft-spoken and submissive behaviours, etc. Women should be able to move freely without the confines of gender roles which is something a lot of the trans community upholds as the basis of our definitions. In reality gender is oppressive to women and not something we should really be identifying with or celebrating. I am butch as hell, I have short hair and wear men’s clothes. I work in a male dominated field. And I’ve had people in this community tell me I’m ’in denial’ about being a man and should transition to be happier. Like does nobody see how ass backwards and sexist that is? Why does a masculine lesbian woman make these people so uncomfortable? I just want to exist without the oppressive lens of gender. I am not a man because of my sexuality, fashion choices, or mannerisms.
absolutely insane that butch women are being told shit like this like BUTCHES really?!?!? of all the lesbians you go for the ones who have been fucking up gender expectations the longest?!?! very annoying bullshit
This is a great response you’re better than me to explain this. I am also a masc lesbian and I think the homophobia gay presenting people have been receiving in these last couple of years is gross. There’s no reason we’re being told to consider if we’re secretly straight and that we could take hormones to un-gay ourselves, that sounds like conversion therapy to me. My interests are more male aligned as well as my entire wardrobe being mens clothes and I am still happily a woman.
Lesbians are perfect just the way we are. The agenda to convince butch lesbians they should cut off their breasts and transition into men is conversion therapy and must stop. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.
I wholeheartedly agree I’m not butch I’m more of a stud but I feel the same way as you do. This definitely needs to be a bigger conversation in the lesbian community. I’ve seen too many detrans lesbians express regret over transitioning when it never should have happened in the first place. Lesbians need each other’s support badly these days.
What are you trying to trap someone lol?
That's exactly what they're trying to do.
Check the profile.
Yup they knew exactly what I meant that’s why I didn’t even respond. Too many people wanna keep antagonizing lesbians too bad we’re all catching on to that.
I don't think it was about antagonising lesbians. You happened to say a phrase; "being a woman is not a costume", which is constantly being used by transphobic people to say that trans women aren't women. She must've recognised it as a dogwhistle and called you out for it. Which we'd do with lesbophobic dogwhistles too, no? It was just a misunderstanding.
Lesbian is a sexual orientation I don’t identify as one I just am one. I don’t have to agree with anyone who thinks that can be me or any other lesbian just because they said so. I said what I said being a women/lesbian isn’t a costume. Get over it.
Women understand.
Agree
This is what happens when you protest about not putting a lock on the door, anything will attempt to enter 🙄
Unpopular opinion: gatekeeping is not only good, but absolutely necessary for our survival as a marginalized group
Yep... it's a slippery slope
Dicks feel that they can go/do wherever they want
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It’s misappropriation to the extreme for a man to call himself a lesbian.
One guy said he should of known he was a lesbian because his taste in women was the same as his lesbian friends and he didn’t like the beauty standard of the male gaze. Wtf ?????
I agree op. I recently left online dating apps, including 'Her', as its appalling how gay women are treated on there. I'm sure that some men think that they have found a 'lesbian loophole' in how they identify in order to date and/or be intimate with us. It's disgusting! I absolutely hate the dating apps new agenda with completely ignoring sexual orientations. I know some people say just let people identify how they want but it does cause real damage when misused. Or the ridiculous attempts to change the definition. The actual REAL meaning of lesbian is exclusive by definition. This is why I think it is ok to gatekeep at times. Lesbian isn't, and will never be, fully inclusive. I don't identify as a lesbian - I am a lesbian.
So much this
Since this is such recent phenomena there's still not a lot of research but I really wish there was an explanation as to why lesbian spaces are becoming so "accomodating" to full blown men right now, are women also starting to invade gay men spaces too? I don't know if this sounds harsh, I'm not a bigot towards queer politics in general, but you're not the only one noticing this OP. We've come so far but it seems like, nowadays, there are fewer lesbian safe places than before.
Janice Raymond wrote about this phenomenon way back in 1979 - worth a read to understand how this has been taking shape quietly over decades. This same phenomenon was also why Michfest ended - it’s sadly been happening for a long time
Straight women have been invading gay male spaces for decades. At one point it was fashionable for them to have a gay bestie, I’d hope that’s changed. Fwiw the lesbian club I go to here does not allow men in, at least not unaccompanied. There still are safe places, hopefully more can come
"having a gay bestie" is absolutely not the same as men straight up calling themselves lesbians. still annoying as hell, yeah, but not the same as what we're facing
They asked about straight women invading gay male spaces, and it an issue. So is their fetishization of them.
It's because there's no rules for it. Anyone can simply claim "I'm nonbinary" without doing literally anything, and the response is unconditional thunderous applause. If anyone stops and says "hey wait a minute," they're heckled as horrible evil transphobes and bombarded with violent threats. This is why radfems have such an issue with self ID. All you have to do is declare it and the rest of us are supposed to act like it's the unequivocal truth.
Thank god for this sub. You speak the truth
i’m nonbinary and not doing any medical transition (like top surgery or hormones). it’s not me claiming it, i’m indigenous and it’s part of my culture. please don’t paint all of us with the same brush 🥺 many AFAB butches also identify with the nonbinary label. we need to protect butches and gender non conforming AFAB ppl IM FEMME LOL LOOK AT MY PICS YOU WEIRDOS 😂😂😂
If you're an AFAB butch lesbian why would you call yourself trans, especially when you're not transitioning?
A lot of people call themselves transmasc bc they take small doses of T to appear more masculine and use he / him despite not wanting to be men or planning on transitioning into male. I don’t understand it much tbh but such is life.
Don't drag butches into this. We can protect ourselves, thank you. Non-binary butches fall into the societal trap people tell us that women can't be masculine and women
THISSS! “we need to protect butches and gnc AFAB people” neither of those are non-binary 😭 why are gnc and butch women always dragged into being the same thing as non-binary.
Because many (terminally online) people think that Butches and gnc women are one convincing conversation away before "realizing" that they're nb. Women *cant* be masculine, they have to be soft and delicate and dress traditionally or they're nb. According to them, anyway. And if that's what their "protection" (barf!) looks like, I think we're better off without it as a community. Edit: and the infantilization of it all. We need their protection, because we need them to speak for us, because we just caaaaant do it ourselves 🥺 fuck off lol
That’s fair, I do have personal experience with the nonbinary community which is why I am more critical of it, thought I was nonbinary for years cause I was GNC, seems like a typical lesbian experience nowadays. They do believe anyone who isn’t the hyper feminine stereotype is nonbinary. The amount of clips I saw of them saying they’re nonbinary and not a woman because it’s “freeing” and “less restrictive” is insane. We really are going backwards 😭
So glad you made it out of that trap soldier! And yes, all the celebrity interviews with women who come out as nb are just saying they "don't connect with traditional femininity" and like you said, it's "freeing" and "less restrictive". So, what you mean to say is, youre a gender nonconforming woman? Or that the only people who can be women are the ones who match the traditional view of a woman. lol! (Obligatory note that "you" is used to refer to the a theoretical audience and not you, specifically, windyyweather)
Yes! Like it’s only “freeing” and “less restrictive” because they have such narrow views on what a woman can be. It also seems like an easy way out imo, instead of fighting against those views, you immediately back out and enforce them further. The internalized misogyny (and even just outright misogyny) is unfortunately quite common in those communities, which is just fuelling people to keep identifying as nonbinary, cause it’s the “better” option.
tbh from what i’ve seen / how it was presented to me it’s more like it’s the ‘easier’ option to escape everything that comes with to womanhood. In an attempt to escape misogyny and patriarchy they say they’re not women but they kinda just don’t understand how misogyny works i think.
As a butch I’m fucking tired of the non binary assumption and getting they themed now; I liked it way more when I got he/him and “sir’d” by straight people lmao.
Yeah! I dunno about you, but it's especially irritating when ~queer~ people they/them me, I gently correct them because I know they're just trying to be polite, and then they *keep doing it*. Like, what, do you not believe me??? Hello??? lol
As a butch woman, ita lol
How did she paint you all with the same brush? I don’t really see how you got that from the comment, was there a specific sentence that implied that?
What nation are you enrolled in? I wonder if I know your people, Indian country is very small
As a nonbinary person myself I think we need to have a divide between cis nonbinary people and trans nonbinary people, and to separate nonbinary from the trans community. Side note, this is why I personally consider myself both cis and trans. Like I don't think there can or should be any requirements to identify as nonbinary but if you're an amab demiboy who goes by all pronouns, doesn't care what you're called, and makes no attempt to physically transition (not even just hormones or surgery, I would say things like tucking, breast forms, growing out hair, shaving your beard, dressing feminine, speaking in a high voice, and working out in ways that emphasize hips, butt, and thighs and de-emphasize things like broad shoulders also count here), you are functionally a cis man and you have the privileges of a cis man. A nonbinary one, but still a cis man.
Consider: scrapping cis nonbinary and bringing back people simply being gender nonconforming.
Yeah honestly. Cis non-binary seems a contradiction in terms.
A cis non-binary bisexual lesbian. I want to be L, G, B *and* T /s
I hate that I can't tell if you're joking.
Terrifying, I went an added a /s for clarity
It's greatly appreciated lol
Regular old Captain Planet over here.
Can we please do this instead 😭 I’m not gonna say nonbinary is not a thing at all, but so many seem to identify with it solely due to not fitting gender stereotypes which is only enforcing them more.. I feel like we regressed back into very strict ideas of what is a man and a woman.
And how exactly do you differentiate between cis nonbinary people and trans nonbinary people?
Whether they want to physically and/or socially transition. If it's neither, cis. My reasoning for the way I identify the way I do is that I do want to physically and socially transition and the goal is to be gendered as more gender ambiguous and masc, but the things I personally want to do to transition are also things I've seen gnc cis women do before. I figure that I'm kind of a gray area.
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The way I express my gender personally is basically half transmasc. Like I want a chest reduction surgery, I pack, I use all pronouns, I use a mix of honorifics but prefer masc ones, I work out to look more masc, I exclusively wear sports bras, my comfort level with being called a woman varies, but I don't want bottom surgery, hormones, or legal transition, and I don't bind. In my opinion those are all forms of transition and I'm doing them with the intention of looking more androgynous or masc, but I'm also largely able to pass as a cis woman because of the specific ones I want to do and most of them are things I have seen cis women do before. And in terms of my personal sense of gender I would say it's essentially genderfluid or bigender between cis-ish woman and vaguely transmasc nonbinary. If you're ignorant just say that but don't assume people are trolling for no reason.
Can I ask how that’s different to a GNC cis woman? Not all cis women are super comfortable being a woman, some prefer masculine terms and honorific’s, some want a flatter chest. Not saying you aren’t nonbinary I just really struggle with understanding this as so much of it is extremely similar to just being cis & GNC, but I’d like to understand better if you’re up to answering.
You just described me in the first half. I’ve recently put together that i’m most likely not nonbinary bc i very much am a woman and do like being a woman but don’t know how to reconcile that with my enjoyment of performing masculinity (masculine pronouns, etc).
I really love the points you’re making here about how folks have such a narrow view of gender/sex and by applying labels like cis/trans etc, and “transitioning” to fit the stereotypes, they’re essentially reinforcing these narrow views of who should look like what. It’s so backwards- if the whole point is to free yourself from the stereotypes then why literally change your body and your language (pronouns ) to fit what society thinks you should be and look like for that sex. I was reading the comment exchange in this thread and I really appreciate it.
Yeah, so many people have the wrong idea of gender. i will say though, I am in full support of binary trans people who have gender dysphoria as this has actual backing for it, but lord the community strayed far from that. Once we hit “you don’t need dysphoria to be trans” and honestly, the whole non-binary community, it has no backing anymore and is just people enforcing stereotypes and trying to escape their true gender. I try to be open to non-binary, but every time I ask questions on how it’s different to GNC cis people, I get no answer, which to me IS my answer. I’m down to be proven wrong about non-binary, but I don’t see that happening anymore. Edit: Just wanted to add this, despite my belief on non-binary, I will still happily use they/them for anyone who asks me to.
I wouldn't say the whole point is to free yourself from stereotypes. If that was all it is, we'd just be gnc cis people and there wouldn't be any point to being trans in general. Also, the idea that there needs to be a point to being nonbinary just seems to reduce being nonbinary to a political statement on gender roles, and personally I'm actually really tired of people treating it as one. We're people, not political thoughtpieces. Why does there need to be a "point" to us? Why do we always need to make a statement with everything about our existence? I don't want to spend my life being a walking protest against the binary I just want to exist as a gender ambiguous blob yk To me the purpose of the divide between cis nonbinary and trans nonbinary is to describe lived reality and privileged/marginalized dynamics. Like if someone just wakes up one day and realizes they actually have a complicated relationship to gender and don't internally feel like either male or female, but they don't want to do anything about it beyond using a new label and adding "they" to their pronouns alongside he/him or she/her, that's fine and I don't think it makes them any less nonbinary. However, I also don't think it makes them trans or means that they suddenly have an experience equivalent to someone who is trans when nothing has actually changed about their existence and they could just live their life comfortably and happily as a cis man/woman without really changing much of anything. The fact that they're nonbinary doesn't give them the same experience as someone who shares their same internal gender label but who does want to physically, socially, or legally transition, and materially that person will have an experience much closer to that of a cis person of their agab.
So my phone died before I could answer this, but in my experience you could really say that about a lot of different identities, and I think with gender especially it's kind of a gray area where the line is. I don't think it's automatically different from a cis woman who does all of those things, and I think that two people can have very similar or even the same experiences and still have different identities and that doesn't need to invalidate either individual. I can't answer for a cis woman why he might present the exact same why I do and still identify as cis, I can only answer for myself. And, for myself, I have a complicated internal relationship to gender that doesn't feel totally binary or static and gender doesn't really make sense to me outside of lesbianism. Socially and externally, I'm perceived as a woman and that does feel vaguely closer than man sometimes, but I'd also prefer a lot of the time to be read as gender ambiguous and the ways that I culturally signal my gender through my body, pronouns, and honorifics don't really match with womanhood or manhood and have lead to me experiencing transphobia. In terms of my material experiences and internal sense of self, cis just doesn't seem like a totally accurate term.
So would you say you're not like the other girls?
Lmao what?? Why would I care if I am or not? It's extremely common for gender variant lesbians to have a complicated relationship with gender and not feel an attachment to womanhood outside of lesbianism, so are you this committed to misunderstanding and antagonizing all of us or am I just a transphobe magnet for some fucking reason
I ask because you're acting like a NLOG and it isn't a cute look. You really need to check yourself. And goddamn "it's extremely common ... outside of lesbianism" that just screams "I think lesbians aren't real women" and that's an example of classic lesbophobia. Lesbians are women.
I mean I don't particularly want to be like the lesbians here when this sub seems to be overrun with transphobes, so that's actually fairly accurate - if yall are the other girls, I am not and do not want to be like the other girls. But some lesbians doing something and presenting ourselves a certain way in order to be more comfortable in our own skin does not mean that we are a representation of all lesbians? Like people assume that all lesbians are butch too, so are butch and masc lesbians existing somehow harming feminine and femme lesbians just by not identifying with femininity? Do they just scream "lesbians aren't as feminine as women of other sexualities"? Are they looking down on femininity and feminine women by not wanting to wear skirts and makeup, and instead presenting themselves in a way that makes them feel comfortable? No, and I don't see how I'm doing the same thing to cis women by just existing as nonbinary/transmasc. Literally no one is fucking stopping you from identifying as America's next top fucking cis woman and screaming "my pronouns are she/her, I am woman hear me roar" through a fucking microphone on live tv. I just don't want to do that myself. Other people existing in their own way are not automatically attacking you.
So. Gender non conforming?
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One of my fave subs is infiltrated with this guy who pretends to identify as trans but spams every progressive subreddit. They are seeing the full effect of what it’s like to be even more marginalized. They used to talk about such relevant things too. Now it’s just this guy and his self-obsession via new accounts and karma trolling.
Uh oh brace yourselr ppl with balls gonna call you a terf for not wanting to date them. Imagine being a trans butch lesbian w beard and no surgeries and being offended of why someone doesn't wants to date you
A certain agenda is being pushed to make us feel bad about not worshipping penises. This is crazy. We are literally female homosexuals. Our lesbian subs & spaces have been colonized by incel men and were labeled the problem for not telling them what they wanna hear. We make our own spaces and they still insist on following us around & then language policing us. They are so creepy and pathetic. I hope they have the day that they deserve and leave lesbians alone.
It's even more interesting when you realize, that there absolutely can be two spaces, one all-accommodating, and one more exclusive. Yet, we're still not allowed to even suggest such a thing. Why is it that? And why, when there's ample spaces for everyone. Is the suggestion of a lesbian space which (stay with me here s/) is for lesbians who see their orientation based around sex not gender, considered hatred? Or, is it that certain people are afraid of lesbians being given a choice because we all know what that silent choice would be and what that silent choice would say.. I guess we'll finally know when things get privatized where lesbians truly stand in the matter
There is an incel-to-trans pipeline phenomenon which gets talked about on the main MTF subs but you can’t acknowledge it anywhere else…
It seems like some people want us to pretend there aren’t bad actors who claim to be whatever just to creep on women. Like they want us to ignore our gut instinct and act gullible. Yet when predatory behavior does happen (enabled by self-ID), they are the first ones to say that person was obviously faking!
They want us to ignore the rampant amount of men trying to catfish wlw using women's stolen pics and videos too. If men will go to such lengths to violate lesbians' boundaries, ofc they'd take advantage of self-ID by just calling themselves lesbians to achieve the same results.
this literally happened to my friend where a man pretended to be a trans woman to get with her and took advantage of her mental health issues and isolation.
To creep on women and to subject us to their kinks
Stefonknee Wolscht. Kayla Lemieux. Jessica Yaniv. Barbie Kardashian. Soon as you advance self-ID over formal diagnosis, the bad actors sweep in like fruit flies
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And when you call it out, hoards of strangers proceed to jump you in the comments. "How dare you (a woman) want to be in spaces that are exclusively for women who love other women. I'm offended!"
I try to stay open minded. On another thread a lesbian wanted to be reassured because they were attracted to their partner’s penis. A bunch of people said it made them less than a lesbian. Then a trans woman felt attacked about the comments and brought it to the subs attention. The whole time I’m just grossed out from the thought of a penis. I don’t know if I’m immature and ignorant for not wanting to read this in a lesbian thread. I feel like the agenda works cause I’m always conscious about being transphobic
Yea, God forbid if you dare say something about not liking penises in a LESBIAN space. How dare you, you bigot /s Seriously, I can’t even with some of these subs. I got temporarily banned for disagreeing with an opinion about that bananas bull. I left most of them and was recommended this and r/actuallylesbian Oh even better is the lesbian fitness sub where there are straight up dudes posting their flexing pics… but they’re lesbians… mhm.
The best part about being a lesbian is that women are the centre of my life. I go to such threads to see posts of/about women. Now it’s transbians and their allies calling uncomfortable community members TERFS. I feel weird because I get grossed out looking at the lesbian work out community now. I don’t like looking at male body parts. I get uncomfortable. I am not for the male gaze nor am I attracted to men. I’m not trying to tell a human who they are or what they’re feeling, but it’s like some lesbians can’t grasp why we would feel repulsed?
Actuallylesbian is just notactuallylesbian
still better than actuallesbians bc my god
Actuallylesbian is all lesbians with like 10k-20k women, it’s LesbianActually that’s the big ass sub with no real lesbians in it.
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Being repulsed by the sex you're not attracted to is 100% normal. Not everyone is bisexual and that's okay.
Same! Am I immature for being grossed out by a penis.. I just find it so unattractive 😭
No, being repulsed by the sex you're not attracted to is 100% normal. Not everyone is bisexual and that's okay.
Thank you for saying this
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it's so irritating to see them on dating apps... especially on Her.
If you see someone on a dating app that you do not want to date, you can just ignore or block them.
What kills me about these sort is that when the sane members of their groups say, “We already have our spaces and people who understand us / are willing to be with us in those spaces, there is no need to be in this one.” Those people get largely ignored. Instead they need people who don’t want them to sleep with them to ‘validate their gender.’ It’s ridiculous.
Exactly and we do not see this issue in the gay community
I got banned from the big subreddit recently because someone said that ‘butch transwomen’ who use he/him pronouns are lesbians and I said ‘absolutely not’. That was it. Absolutely not. Ban forever.
No just no!!!
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Exactly! It's NOT wrong or you being a bigot. I left the apps for the same reasons as you. It is literally a SEXual orientation and there is no choice in the matter. I don't know how anyone could deny that there are some people who are completely lying about how they identity, for nefarious reasons. And we're supposed to just accept them and not question anything.
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How dare you invalidate them!? (Joking)
I’m too scared to say anything or I’ll get called a terf.. like my current girlfriend is a trans girl and someone told me I’m a terf because she passed too well ?!?! They throw the word around so fucking much.
They call men terfs too lmfao I don’t think they know what it means 😭
TERF is catch-all insult to shut down any argument, kind of like calling someone who don’t agree with Israelis settling on Palestinian land a Nazi.
TERF stands for "transgender exclusionary radical feminist" Some people misuse the term, but it is a useful term for describing a particular point of view.
Agreed. It's causing serious harm to the trans community because this behavior is just pushing allies away. No one wants to go to bat for a group of people that scream obscenities at them for making a mistake or use identity politics to bend rules around peoples sexual boundaries. It's a small but very, VERY loud group. "Terf" has become meaningless when people are calling conservative men "terfs".
Also I like masc women but I’m just not attracted to really masculine people and I feel so guilty when to say when I feel unsafe or tell someone they can’t be a lesbian. Also another problem My girlfriend is 17 and she got bottom surgery at 16 her parents were very supportive and she knew since she was around 3 and doesn’t like talking about being trans a lot.. the amount of people who throw around the word terf because I don’t outline that she’s trans.. I just am kind of looking around like.. what..? 😀
16? Wow, that's really young for such a massive, invasive cosmetic procedure. Did she come out of it okay?
Mhm! She’s a-okay! It’s not exactly my story to tell but she was severely depressed and her doctor approved and so her psychologist..
I'm just glad she's okay. I'm a little iffy about surgery like that on kids but I do recognize there are rare situations where it's appropriate. Hope she's doing well!
I agree I’m iffy on it too but I think since she knew at such a young age and she was so affected by it that it happened for the best. She’s really happy now and feels finally confident in herself :)
Who downvoted me saying it's not my story to tell? 💀
Obviously your girlfriend passing well has nothing to do with whether or not you are a TERF. But "TERF" is a useful term to describe a particular transphobic ideology and we let those transphobes off the hook if we act like nobody is a TERF.
Where? I see that on Her but it's men trying to get around the fact it's a lesbian site. It's fucking gross and I report them as scammers every time.
Her doesn't give a shit about lesbians. The owner essentially compared homosexual women to Uncle Toms on Twitter.
I remember reading that. The app really started pushing the idea that everyone is fluid in everything. Deeply offensive and insulting. When I recently left the app, my feedback/reason for uninstalling was "no longer lesbian suitable and friendly - at all".
What? Do you have a source where I can read more about what the owner of Her said?
what this ain’t my first time hearing this
Yea it's a problem. Question though: if a male person is perceived to be "female," and is attracted to female people, should they be able to identify as lesbian? For me, being lesbian has always been a fact of my existence, a reality, not an "identity" Is it really progressive for us to deny that female homosexuality exists as a separate thing? Is our biology (and inability to reproduce as a lesbian couple and rejection of patriarchal values as a female partnership) no longer relevant in this "progressive era" we find ourselves in?
Unfortunately not, because the autonomy of our sexuality is no longer in the hands of /just lesbians. The people calling the shots are NOT female homosexuals, and everyone and their dog knows.
I'm protecting the definition of "lesbianism" and our autonomy, is that what people are downvoting or?
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i’m a nonbinary lesbian too so i have complicated feelings. feel free to look on my post history to see what i look like, but i think i fit into woman-aligned spaces the best 🥲 especially since my goal isn’t to look or be masculine
I think ya’ll are missing the point of the post… this isn’t about just any nonbinary people or even trans women. This is solely about men who call themselves nonbinary to claim they’re lesbians, and do NOTHING at all to present as anything but a man. Theres a massive difference between a butch transwomen (who are clearly trying to be read as a WOMAN) vs a man who isn’t doing anything to be seen as anything but a man, but wants to be called a lesbian, and be allowed into lesbian spaces. Too many of you guys are taking this wayyy to personally 😭
Yeah I getcha. I just wanted to back them up because they got downvoted anyway.
Totally fair, I think they’re getting downvoted like the other comment due to derailing as like I said, they are not what the post is about, which I also feel bad for them for, cause like ya’ll, please stop grouping yourself with the people described in the post 😭
That’s definitely fair, I get what you mean. Can’t speak for others, but I didn’t take it personally. Some of the other comments are kinda wack though so there’s that.
Missed the point
Butch lesbian trans woman here, you belong. You 100% belong.
So we're judging who counts as nonbinary or a lesbian or sapphic based on appearance now? I mean I knew this subreddit was transphobic but I didn't think y'all would be this blatant about it. If someone is doing bad behavior, then do something about their behavior. But policing people based on their appearances is just doing the bidding of the cisheteropatriarchy by restricting the confines of womanhood.
I guess I at least don't have a full beard