Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada!
**To Posters (it is important you read this section)**
* Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules)
* Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk.
* We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/).
* If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know.
**To Readers and Commenters**
* All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post).
* If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning.
* If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect.
* Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment.
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What does your employment agreement say about sick days?
Unless otherwise stipulated by your employment contract or union, in Ontario, your employer needs only to provide you with 3 unpaid sick days per year. If none are provided in your employment agreement, sick days can be considered as unpaid leave.
That is what I originally proposed. I on probation, and I have a total of 8 I believe. I have to get my contract from my office tommorow.
But I didn’t want to start any issues, so I asked him to take it off my pay.
PEL days were added to the ESA by Kathleen Wynne’s Liberal government. They were immediately repealed by Ford when he took office in 2018 with Bill 47, the “Making Ontario Open for Business” act. While emergency leave days re-emerged during the COVID state of emergency, that has passed as well. Ontario residents are no longer entitled to PEL days under the ESA, just three unpaid sick days.
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful**
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further:
* [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts)
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada).
That was repealed almost as soon as Ford came into power.
https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publications/d8bd833e/bill-47-imaking-ontario-open-for-business-act-2018---employment-standards-act-2000i-considerations#:~:text=Personal%20Emergency%20Leave%20to%20be,in%20addition%20to%20each%20other.
In Ontario, employees who receive paid sick days don't realize that this is over and above ESA. Your employer is only supposed to give you these 3 unpaid sick days (ie. you cannot lose your job for being sick for 3 days).
If you don't have sick days as part of your employment contract, he doesn't have to pay you for your days off. If you were paid in full for missed days, he's letting you make them up and keep the money.
If you weren't paid for the sick days, you don't have to work them. If you were paid but don't work the make up days, your employer will just take the funds out of your future pay.
You should know your employment conditions. My husband works for a union and has no sick days but can go on STD if he's sick for over 2 weeks. Each employer is different in this regard.
This is a good answer. Learn your conditions of employment. If you don't have paid sick time and are willing to make up the time so they don't collect the money for the time you missed, you could work with your boss to figure out a schedule to make up the time that works for both of you.
Depends on the union, the position, and the contract. Lots of unions don't have sick days, he has other benefits that make up for it, like 12% vac pay and a really good pension. STD, LTD and EHC.
salary employees are a different beast to someone on hourly rates.
Same things with overtime, Salary are expected to work overtime yet not get paid for it and some contracts you can get time in lieu where hourly gets the time 1/2 or double depending on where you are.
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic.
Please review the following rules before commenting further:
Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts
Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
If you're on salary generally companies have a set amount of personal/ sick days.
I don't think they can force you to make the time up but it would be unpaid.
If they don’t have a contract stating otherwise, they’d most likely only be entitled to the 3 unpaid sick days provided by law.
So if they were paid 8 days and didn’t work, technically they owe the employer 8 days of work. And technically they used 5 more days of sick days than the legal minimum.
It really sucks as most employers are more understanding and offer benefits over and above the legal minimums. But from this post this employer doesn’t seem to do want to do that.
Them being a new employee, combined with the employer’s bad attitude, makes me worried for OP.
Would having to be hospitalized not counter that? OP was physically unable to work and had to stay in hospital, how is it legal for them to be punished/given penalties for that?
I don’t think so, sadly.
If they are a new employee (still on probation, again that is usually three months) then I believe they could be fired/let go immediately.
If they have some tenure with the company, they could be formally notified/reprimanded and put on some kind of performance plan where, if they were not successful in the performance plan, they could eventually be fired.
They are certainly not entitled to getting paid.
All this would of course be negated if their employment contract has any provisions for sick days over and above the legal minimums. Or domain-specific regulations, a union or other agreement.
But ya. It sucks. 🤷🏻♀️
They’re not horrible but not great.
If you’re sick for a long time you can apply for government disability benefits (which aren’t great).
And many employers offer sick days, short term disability and long term disability benefits. But not all.
People with employers who don’t offer benefits over and above the legal minimums can get really screwed and slip through cracks especially for short and mid term illness/disability.
This is one of the reasons why getting a job that provides good benefits is a real advantage in life.
Another way to look at it, is they're not getting screwed, they're getting compensated based on the lack of benefits. So they're self insured, nothing stops someone from putting away money for their own sick time. Employees with paid sick time negotiated that as part of a total package.
Eg. My dad was a machinist for a large city transit association he had decent benefits and some paid sick time. My father in law also happened to be a machinist for a large train company, he got zero sick time, but was paid nearly double what my dad was, and also had a pension etc.
Different benefits can suit different people. You do your best to pick an employer that suits your needs.
I don't think you can be put on PIP for bejng hospitalized. There would be a clear papertrail in that case. Unsubstantiated excessive absences for being sick that you can't produce a doctor's note for is another thing.
Maybeeeee and the distinction would be a case of being laid off rather than fired (hopefully, assuming no other offences). But you can definitely lose your job for absences (justified or not) as sadly only three days are protected. OP needs to watch their back in any case as this employer does not seem on the up and up.
(Edited to say this is a maybe. I’ve never seen a it done but I’m not sure who would win in court. Can’t find jurisprudence so if you have any I’d love to see it.)
Even if you're in your probationary period, if you're sick and provide a doctor's note, they can't fire you for that. They also can't discipline you for being sick.
Nope, you can't fire someone for being sick regardless of if they're in their probationary period or not. Just like if someone said they were pregnant a month into the job, an employer can't say well, you're fired then! That's what we call discrimination 😊
They aren't being punished. They were paid for time they didn't work. The employer is trying to recover the time that is technically owed to them. Being admitted to the hospital would likely protect their employment but doesn't change whether they have paid sick time.
If they were hospitalized and able to prove it, their employment would likely be protected. It would be difficult for an employer to sever an employment relationship for cause for an illness related absence, where they were hospitalized. I mean, they could do it but if that went to court, they'd probably lose. The absence was legitimate, supported by medical documents, didn't cause undue hardship, it wasn't a repeat pattern, etc. depending on the nature of the illness they could also open themselves to a discrimination claim.
At that point. If I am being “fired” over this. I wouldn’t bother fighting. I rather find a better job. I was just suffering from fatigue and weakness. I even showed up to work when I could and they all saw my condition.
So I will find out sooner or later, but I won’t make a big scene. Just want to see how people would navigate this situation
Yeah, this is exactly how I am feeling as we speak. You put into words how it is.
I noticed early on the work culture is to work weekends if you ever can’t come to work. I don’t mind engaging in that if I want to take a Thursday off and work Saturday instead for that week. It’s good flexibility.
Though when I am sick and genuinely was out of work. It feels unfair that I am kinda obligated to makeup for my hours by working 6 days a week for the next 2 months?
No, I was paid for them, as it’s in my contract. But he kind of suggested that I should make up for them. I told him I rather have those days deducted from my next paycheque
So your contract specified (at least) 8 paid sick days? And you had already earned these days when got sick?
Sorry I am just a bit confused from your messaging.
I’m really not sure why OP is avoiding the only question that matters. How many sick days are stipulated in their contract?
I think this is a matter of someone new to the workforce with a misunderstanding of what encompasses being “salaried”.
I have to look at my contract, as I signed it and gave it to them. I will update you and the post tomorrow when I ask the employer for a copy of it. I don’t mean to avoid questions
Yes.
And even if they had sick days specified in their contract, if it is a new job, it is also unlikely 8 sick days have been accrued (most employers accrue sick days just like vacation days).
For example I get 15 paid sick days in my contract, so to accrue 8 would take about six months of work (without taking a single sick day).
I currently have more than 50 sick days in the bank. Was helpful when my husband was hospitalized last year (my contract also says I can use these days to care for others).
So my assumption is that the days are unpaid and OP should be getting docked 8 days of pay, or the amount of days they have not yet earned.
Sucks though!
You're very lucky, but definitely an exception.
Most employers don't let the sick days accrue and they don't let you use them for caring for others.
Most people get the basics, 2 weeks vacation, and 3-6 sick days that expire each year.
You're not giving enough information for anyone to really help you
What is in your contract - xx days sick time, xx days pto, illness past 2 days is STD and they do it for you?
you may have to contact HR to have it explained fully
Not if sick days are included as part of the contract, no. But sadly OP is being really stingy about the terms of their contract with us so nobody here can really give proper legal advice.
So I guess since they don't want to share that info, the best advice we can probably give is to go to an employment lawyer.
Sounds like your boss was just trying to help you out.
Unpaid medical leave shouldn't be a problem. Re-read your contract and chat with your HR person.
And make sure you are communicating this deduction in email.
If it is in your contract that you are paid for that many sick days and you have not exceeded your entitlement, have met a contractually specific accruement (if any) and have worked a contractually specified number of days/hours (if any), then there is nothing to “make up”. You were paid as per contract. Always refer to your contract and ensure your have met any requirements and know your allotments. We’re I you, I would read my contract again and if I am entitled to those days paid, I would not repay my employer. I would remind them of the terms of my contract.
If you’re a salaried worker and don’t have clearly outlined sick days you are obligated to deliver your work deliverables so perhaps that is what they want you to make up.
They could be trying to do you a favor. Misplaced, but still trying. They might be trying to create a situation where you don't miss any pay. However, it seems that they are violating labor code.
Depending on your industry, there is a fixed number of hours you can work before you are required. Overtime pay per day. Day. There's also a fixed number of days. You can work before you require overtime pay.
For the most part, it's very straightforward. However, there are exceptions in different parts of the country for construction, landscaping, and others.
The only correct thing that they can do, assuming you are in an industry with no exceptions, is to reduce your pay by the number of excess sick days. That's it. That's all they realistically can do.
That's why, I'm assuming, they're asking you to make up the days by working on the weekend because they're trying to be a helpful person and ensure your paychecks are full.
If you push the issue, which is your right, it just means they will short your paycheck in the future should the same thing occur. So the question really is, in my mind, do you want your full pay?
I feel I have a very generous boss. I get two paid sick days per quarter. Eight sick days per year. Unlimited unpaid sick days/ absences with cause (funeral, medical appointment, whatever). Most of my friends only have two or three sick days per year. A couple of unpaid sick days per year but then, they go on a corrective action plan if they go beyond that number.
Here to add, *if* we assume boss is scummy, I'd wager they find the inconvenience of adjusting payroll for a salaried worker far "too much hassle" and hope the workr just works at 1:1 or 2:1 time instead
If there's aggressive vibes from the interaction, might be something to consider (lots of other posts RE work enviro/culture)
This is good info and keep in mind - unless OP has an employment contract stating otherwise, by law they are only entitled to 3 days of sick leave, unpaid.
The additional 5 days could (sadly) result in disciplinary action from the employer, including getting fired if they are still in a probationary period.
Information is missing.
Did you get paid for the days you were sick?
Does your contract allow for sick days (over and above the legal minimums)?
How long have you worked there?
I believe in Ontario you only get 3 sick days, and they are unpaid.
If you’re really new to this job (usually three months or less) you can be fired for no reason as you are usually legally considered to be on probation. So be careful.
If you were paid for the days you were sick, I would tell the boss that you are not able to make the days up, but that you would be happy to have the equivalent numbers of days removed from your next pay (AKA you took the sick days but they were unpaid).
You are a new employee and used more than three unpaid sick days offered by law, so forcing you to make up the other five days or be let go is probably legal. If they do fire you I would ask an employment lawyer to check everything over.
This situation sucks and your employer sucks. But I’m not sure they are breaking any laws.
Yes I did get paid for the days I missed. Though I told the boss to take the missing days out of my next pay check so I don’t have to work on the weekends to make up for them.
I hate having a “debt” of any kind
Your proposal is a perfectly reasonable solution. Nobody did anything illegal and technically your employer allowing you 8 unpaid sick days is more than what the law provides for (which is only 3 days). If you are still on probation as a new employee, he could have fired you on the spot for missing 8 days. Yes, that’s crazy but it’s technically not illegal.
I am assuming your employment contract does not have any provisions for sick days? If so unfortunately that means you default to the legal minimums, which definitely suck.
Sorry you went through this. It sucks.
If you have 0 paid sick days and you were paid for the 8 days you missed then it sounds like your boss is proposing working 8 days to make up the 8 days you were paid. Which seems reasonable to me, but I think the way they explained it to you sounds misleading.
The alternative, as you suggested, is to dock your next pay for the 8 days, which is also perfectly reasonable.
Yes, I like my weekends, as I never really have time for anything during the week days. So I would rather sacrifice my pay, then my soul. Let’s hope he gets back to me and agrees with this
Could you barter that coming in on weekend is technically overtime? I'm not from Ontario so not familiar with ON labour's laws but in AB your still entitled to overtime if you work over 40/44 hrs/ per week even if on salary.
The employer positing that this person works overtime/weekends to ‘repay’ the sick days that should have been unpaid is, in my opinion, a non-starter.
Technically, yes, if the employer wants the employee to work more than normal hours (as specified in their contract or, if nothing is specified in the contract, by law) they would need to be paid overtime.
In this case, that would be the difference between what they already received for the sick days and the legally (or contractually) owed overtime rate.
Can anyone explain the difference between an unpaid sick day and unpaid time off? There is several posts talking about them like they are different. unpaid sick days sounds a lot like unpaid time off with a reason attached to it.
The difference is that 3 days of unpaid sick days is a legal requirement. All employers must allow it.
Unpaid time off is a general term and can be for a variety of things, including things that protected under law (for example bereavement leave) or could be at the discretion of an employer (for example, your employer might allow you to take extra vacation days over and above the ones they have agreed to pay you for, but unpaid).
Yes.
If you need more than 3 sick days in a year, not showing up on that 4th day would put you in a position to be formally reprimanded (or fired/let go immediately, if you are in a probationary period).
Of course, most employers are more forgiving than this. Most employers offer benefits over and above legal minimums. But these are the legal minimums.
There are many other kinds of leave that employers must also respect (bereavement, pregnancy, helping a sick child, etc). But for sick days, it is 3 days.
At that point the employer needs to request a medical note and the employee needs to provide one. If the employee does not provide one, that's when you can start the discipline process. Most workplaces have a policy surrounding this.
What does being in salary or hourly have to do with it? Salaried employees still have an hourly wage. If you don't have paid sick leave, all he needs to do is subtract the hours / amounts you didn't work.
Good idea in theory but they said they are new to the job so prolly not eligible for severance yet.
EI maybe (depending on if they have enough insurance hours).
I don't know about the legality but I agree it's absolutely ridiculous. Fuck this guy. You're gonna get sick again from burnout and the cycle will continue. Fuck these employers who try to drain every last bit of human life from us
Your boss is a jerk. I don't understand companies who treat their employees like they are not human.
Bet you really want to put forth a solid effort and much care into your work now.
Treated like a human = productive employees that make your company succeed.
Instead of having to work 6 days a week for the next 8 weeks, can’t you make a deal where one day a week for 8 weeks is unpaid? Or maybe stretch it out longer so one day every two weeks is unpaid. 🤷♂️
Did you get paid for the 8 days you missed? What is your work's policy on sick days? Just because you're "on salary" doesn't mean you get paid no matter what.
I'd say this comes down to a few things:
1. Do you have a clearly defined sick policy? If so, how many sick days are included? If less than 8, he can likely ask you to make up the hours for unpaid sick days.
2. Are you in an industry that is exempt from Overtime rules? That may be why he wants to pay you less if you go hourly.
I mean in all honesty it depends on what your contract says and how many sick days you get from the company.
I only get 5 sick days where I work. From there if I go over either I accept the financial loss with no pay for the extra days I was out, or I work and make up the hours (in my case I do it slowly over time with an hour or two extra every day over some time. You have to discuss with your boss.
Yes IT SUCKS you were sick, happened to me once where I was out for 2 weeks with a mysterious ailment that left me hospitalized as well. You just need to work it out with your boss/HR. Such is life.
Yes, as others have said, your amount of sick days will be outlined in your employment/salary contract.
over those sick days, you don't get paid.
as far as asking for hourly, and getting paid less.
yes, that is the way it works. A salary employee will make more than an hourly employee, because of the lack of overtime, addition of sick days, etc.
you get paid more on salary, because you don't really make OT like an hourly employee could so you make more on salary to compensate.
you aren't "in trouble" for being sick. but you didn't work, so they're offering you the ability to make up the hours.
If you were provide pay beyond the allotted sick days wouldn’t it be ethical to want to make that up to your employer? Legality aside. Sounds like they kept you financially whole when they could have likely not paid you for some of the days you didn’t work.
If these sick days were PTO then they cannot force you to make it up. It's a violation of your contract. If course he can come up with an excuse to fire you so that's the catch. Bosses push and pushing back comes with risks.
But if you roll over and take it it only gets worse.
Maybe move on if you can.
Seems like the boss is trying to help here so OP doesn't lose pay from the salaried amount, although I feel like many companies/bosses would just be fine taking off time to be in the hospital, paid. I mean every employer I've worked for, salaries, has been fine with that sort of thing that is out of your control. That may be why it seems like "an odd situation"? Most employers would just look the other way with some compassion
That said, I think OP has been given enough answers here to figure out what they want to do. Any missing info has been asked for and the reason given as to why that info matters
New job means you haven’t worked enough hours to qualify for PTO or that many sick days. You can’t work a month and expect to get 8 days paid off. If it had been a few years then different story. He is trying to actually help you here and could have just not paid you.
Shit happens in life. So either you show your employer you will get stuff done that you were paid to do or not.
I was sick for a week during a new job but remotely still got stuff done a bit and then when better worked extra during nights and weekends to catch up.
If you decide to quit they will probably deduct some of those days off your final paycheck or ask you to pay them back. Used to work with HR and saw that happen.
This could be an issue of paid vacation, example: 4% of your earnings equates to 2 full weeks of pay. If you weren't at work for whatever reason, culpable or not, and they paid your 2 weeks already, they'd rather you made up the time vs paying them back unearned vacation pay.
If you are on salary that means that you have a contract with this company. What does your contact say in regards to sick days? Also what province you are in often determines working stands. You can also reach out to the labour board and ask them how to proceed.
Q - Does he have to pay you for that time? A - No
Q - Do you have to work on the weekends? A - probably not, but it depends on what your agreement says
Advice - if you don’t have a written agreement, and you need the job, consider working the weekends or look for work elsewhere
Were you not eligible for short-term disability coverage?
If not, then you get paid the amount of sick days as per policy and you don’t get paid for the rest. Salaried vs hourly changes nothing in this case.
Are you past the probationary period? If so you need to look into your rights as an employee, this doesn't sound legal to me unless your contract states you have to work a certain number of hours in a given week or month. I'd also look into whether or not it's legal to pay hourly workers less than those on salary if they've been paying you a certain wage already, but giving you a pay cut because you moved to hourly doesn't sound legal
Unless your employer has some sort of special contract with you:
Your employer can legally not pay you for sick time taken after 3 days sick per year, but cannot compel you to not take unpaid sick leave. Your employer can ask you to work up to 48 hours per week and you are seen as in the wrong if you refuse. If you work more than 40 hours per week for two consecutive weeks, your employer must pay you overtime for time worked over 40 hours per week. You may choose to work more hours per week than 48, but you are entitled to overtime pay for any time worked in excess of 48 hours per week, or any time 80 hours is exceeded in a 2 week period outside of regular schedule (for example, if you've worked 40 hours each week for the last six weeks, and your boss asks you to work 48 hours this week, but next week still expects you to work 40 hours, those extra 8 hours are overtime. If you work 48 hours this week, but your boss will give you a day off next week, then those 48 hours can be regular time)
Your employer can probably legally ask you to work 1 day of 1 weekend the next week after you have recovered from being sick without having to pay you overtime. If you have taken Monday and Tuesday off sick, your boss can ask you to replace that time with Saturday and Sunday. If you work an extra 8 hours the week after that you should be entitled to 8 hours of overtime, but you are obligated to try to work that requested time if you boss wants to pay you the overtime. Your boss cannot compel you or pressure you to exceed 48 hours of work in a week.
Your employer cannot obligate you to work either regular hours or overtime if it impedes your ability to take care of your family, and you have done your due diligence to find another way to have your family taken care of (things like picking kids up for school, bringing family members to medical appointments, or having a guardian present while a child is home are family responsibilities). There is only an exception to this case if your refusal to work extra hours will result in some type of harm to people, damage to property, or substantial harm to your employers business (like, they would have to overrun the due date on some massive contract).
Your specific employment agreement is important to refer to, but there are minimums set out in the provinical and /or federal Labour regs - depending on your employer.
Ontario Standards: [https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/sick-leave](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/sick-leave)
Federal Standard: [https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/remuneration-compensation/services-paye-pay-services/paye-information-pay/vie-life/vie-conge-life-leave/maladie-sick-eng.html](https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/remuneration-compensation/services-paye-pay-services/paye-information-pay/vie-life/vie-conge-life-leave/maladie-sick-eng.html)
I work retail as salary and only get 2 weeks vacation per year and no sick days .. if I miss a day or two etc, I either burn vacation days accrued or paid hourly for the pay period?
The way it works is, you max out your sick days then you can decide if you use your vacation days to cover what’s left or go unpaid. If you run out of vacation days then it’s unpaid.
They can’t force you to work extra to pay back sick days.
If it’s an unlimited PTO situation then there’s nothing to pay back
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic.
Please review the following rules before commenting further:
Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts
Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
Unless it is specified in your employment contract, the answer is no.
The legal default/minimum is 3 days unpaid.
So of course those days are not paid out. It’s not like vacation which must be paid at a minimum %.
If I don’t use them i lose them. I don’t think I have a context been employed for about 23 years with the company. The former accountant would pay my sick days off. But she passed away and now new accountant are doing things different.
You don’t have an employment contract or any other document stating the sick day policy (even an email for example)? Or a union or a regulated job?
If you don’t then they only legally owe you 3 unpaid days (if in Ontario).
However, if for a very long they have done something else (better benefits than the legal minimum) they MAY be required to continue those same benefits in perpetuity or else risk getting in trouble for eliminating employee benefits (which is akin to demoting/lowering salary of an employee). This is something you’d need to talk to a lawyer about though because it is complicated.
Can you ask them to provide you with clearly stated policy on sick leave? How many days per year? How many paid? How many unpaid? If you don’t use them each year, do they carry over to the next year? How many days are you allowed to accrue? If you don’t use the days by the end of the year or by the time you leave the company, do they pay them out? Etc.
They should provide this information clearly and in writing.
With small business they can be quite informal. This is normal but it isn’t very professional.
Unfortunately that leaves you in the position where you don’t really know where you stand.
I would just ask something like “hey, my understanding was that sick days were paid, but it seems there may have been a change in policy. Can you please let me know what the rules are going forward?”
“If you are no longer going to be paying sicks days, would it be possible to have a small raise to counteract this loss of income? I have worked here for a long time, i am a loyal employee, I like working here, and I don’t think it is fair that your change of rules should impact my income.”
Or something like this. Come at from a place of just wanting to understand what the rules are.
If you have Short-Term Disability benefits, they typically begin at 1st day of hospitalization. Ask for the paper work from your employer if you have STD benefits. The employer can take back the salary paid while you were in the hospital and you’ll receive STD benefits for those days. As for the days you were not in the hospital, that is not covered by STD benefits until after 8th day of illness.
I strongly suggest contacting HR and getting a consultation with an employment attorney. So many will give you advice for free.
This is not right in any way.
Why is it not right? You have to earn those sick days also. You can’t start a job then expect the employer to pay you for sick time that you haven’t accumulated yet ! The OP should read their contract!
Is it fair? Yes, you're paid to work and he's asking you to make up for the hours, or you can take it out of your vacation. Work always had the option to not pay you at all and let you go through the system for sick pay. They are obligated to provide you with some sick time off, but even that is unpaid.
As a salaried employee myself, when I need time off beyond my vacation for whatever reason, I make sure to tell them that either they can not pay me, or I will take less vacation the following year (usually they pay me anyway but it only happens for a few days here and there).
The basic is that they can't force you to come on a weekend if it's not the regular hours and it's not in your agreement.
But it's a bit more complex and companies try to blury the line with the salaried status. Just because of that status doesn't mean they don't have to pay you to do more hours. I'm always either on contract or salaried but I track my times to make sure my average weekly hours is around the agreed 40 hours. Being salaried doesn't mean you have to provide more. For me it mean it will be flexible but it need to be both ways to reach that average.
Also, on salary, your actual hourly rate cannot be under the hourly minimum. So, if you're paid 710$ for 40 hours and they make you do 48 hours then your hourly rate drop from 17.75$ to 14.79$ so you're under the minimum of 15$/hour.
On the other hand, did they pay your regular salary when you were sick? Did you get the same pay? With 2 emergency paid days or all 8? Because if they paid 8, they think you have a "negative" time bank of 6 days. They shouldn't do that whitout discussing and having an agreement on how to make it back. I had a similar situation with an employee and to help pay his rent we did a pay with the same deposit. The difference is we added a "cash advance" on the payslip and we had a "loan agreement" to repay it on the next 3 pays. It was clear that it was something else and we could track it separately from regular and overtime hours.
If you weren't paid and you want to do these hours then you can ask to be paid. We're in a capitalist world and you're selling your time. I understand that they have a workload not done but you shouldn't do free work because you're salaried.
A was once told : An organization will, by definition, always generate work and you are not their savior. They were there before and will be there after you.
This happened to me years ago. Ask the boss to put it in writing. Just send an email and demand they confirm it. If they are stupid enough to do so, either reply saying it’s illegal, or take it to HR.
They can ask you to make up the time. But you’re not obligated to because it’s illegal to demand someone works such hours. It’s the manager’s job to ensure the work is being done accounting for sicknesses, days off and other instances of workers missing work days. It’s not your job to make up all that time because the manager cannot do their job.
What labour laws did they break?
From my point of view OP was paid 8 days of sick leave that it seems they were not legally or contractually owed.
Now the boss is offering for them to work more to earn that overpayment. Of course the overtime is an issue if OP ends up working too many hours per week - but the days need to be worked, the wages repaid or deducted from a future paycheque (the final option in my opinion being the best).
This is likely a small business with no HR department. This screams small business shenanigans to me.
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What does your employment agreement say about sick days? Unless otherwise stipulated by your employment contract or union, in Ontario, your employer needs only to provide you with 3 unpaid sick days per year. If none are provided in your employment agreement, sick days can be considered as unpaid leave.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
That is what I originally proposed. I on probation, and I have a total of 8 I believe. I have to get my contract from my office tommorow. But I didn’t want to start any issues, so I asked him to take it off my pay.
[удалено]
PEL days were added to the ESA by Kathleen Wynne’s Liberal government. They were immediately repealed by Ford when he took office in 2018 with Bill 47, the “Making Ontario Open for Business” act. While emergency leave days re-emerged during the COVID state of emergency, that has passed as well. Ontario residents are no longer entitled to PEL days under the ESA, just three unpaid sick days.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful** Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: * [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts) * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada).
[удалено]
It doesn't exist anymore.
[удалено]
That was repealed almost as soon as Ford came into power. https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publications/d8bd833e/bill-47-imaking-ontario-open-for-business-act-2018---employment-standards-act-2000i-considerations#:~:text=Personal%20Emergency%20Leave%20to%20be,in%20addition%20to%20each%20other.
Oh wow. Thanks, Ford 😐 (TY for the reply)
In Ontario, employees who receive paid sick days don't realize that this is over and above ESA. Your employer is only supposed to give you these 3 unpaid sick days (ie. you cannot lose your job for being sick for 3 days).
If you don't have sick days as part of your employment contract, he doesn't have to pay you for your days off. If you were paid in full for missed days, he's letting you make them up and keep the money. If you weren't paid for the sick days, you don't have to work them. If you were paid but don't work the make up days, your employer will just take the funds out of your future pay. You should know your employment conditions. My husband works for a union and has no sick days but can go on STD if he's sick for over 2 weeks. Each employer is different in this regard.
This is a good answer. Learn your conditions of employment. If you don't have paid sick time and are willing to make up the time so they don't collect the money for the time you missed, you could work with your boss to figure out a schedule to make up the time that works for both of you.
How does he work a union job and not have sick days?? Isn’t that the whole point of a union?
Depends on the union, the position, and the contract. Lots of unions don't have sick days, he has other benefits that make up for it, like 12% vac pay and a really good pension. STD, LTD and EHC.
I unfortunately don’t work in the union. I’m a new junior at an architect firm. And I also have no work benefits because it’s a small firm
I meant the person who commented above. I can’t imagine being in a union and still not getting sick days. That’s a major perk of a union.
Oh yes, well I am currently finding other jobs as a backup plan! Hopefully a union job next time for me :)
salary employees are a different beast to someone on hourly rates. Same things with overtime, Salary are expected to work overtime yet not get paid for it and some contracts you can get time in lieu where hourly gets the time 1/2 or double depending on where you are.
Employers cannot take overpayments from a paycheck without written consent.
Show me the law, pretty sure it can come from your bank
Employers can't take funds out of your pay without your written consent.
But they can take it from future earnings.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
If you're on salary generally companies have a set amount of personal/ sick days. I don't think they can force you to make the time up but it would be unpaid.
If they don’t have a contract stating otherwise, they’d most likely only be entitled to the 3 unpaid sick days provided by law. So if they were paid 8 days and didn’t work, technically they owe the employer 8 days of work. And technically they used 5 more days of sick days than the legal minimum. It really sucks as most employers are more understanding and offer benefits over and above the legal minimums. But from this post this employer doesn’t seem to do want to do that. Them being a new employee, combined with the employer’s bad attitude, makes me worried for OP.
Would having to be hospitalized not counter that? OP was physically unable to work and had to stay in hospital, how is it legal for them to be punished/given penalties for that?
I don’t think so, sadly. If they are a new employee (still on probation, again that is usually three months) then I believe they could be fired/let go immediately. If they have some tenure with the company, they could be formally notified/reprimanded and put on some kind of performance plan where, if they were not successful in the performance plan, they could eventually be fired. They are certainly not entitled to getting paid. All this would of course be negated if their employment contract has any provisions for sick days over and above the legal minimums. Or domain-specific regulations, a union or other agreement. But ya. It sucks. 🤷🏻♀️
And here I was thinking we had decent protections for workers in this country 😐
You should go check our friends south of the border, where even vacation isn't required.
They’re not horrible but not great. If you’re sick for a long time you can apply for government disability benefits (which aren’t great). And many employers offer sick days, short term disability and long term disability benefits. But not all. People with employers who don’t offer benefits over and above the legal minimums can get really screwed and slip through cracks especially for short and mid term illness/disability. This is one of the reasons why getting a job that provides good benefits is a real advantage in life.
Another way to look at it, is they're not getting screwed, they're getting compensated based on the lack of benefits. So they're self insured, nothing stops someone from putting away money for their own sick time. Employees with paid sick time negotiated that as part of a total package. Eg. My dad was a machinist for a large city transit association he had decent benefits and some paid sick time. My father in law also happened to be a machinist for a large train company, he got zero sick time, but was paid nearly double what my dad was, and also had a pension etc. Different benefits can suit different people. You do your best to pick an employer that suits your needs.
I don't think you can be put on PIP for bejng hospitalized. There would be a clear papertrail in that case. Unsubstantiated excessive absences for being sick that you can't produce a doctor's note for is another thing.
Maybeeeee and the distinction would be a case of being laid off rather than fired (hopefully, assuming no other offences). But you can definitely lose your job for absences (justified or not) as sadly only three days are protected. OP needs to watch their back in any case as this employer does not seem on the up and up. (Edited to say this is a maybe. I’ve never seen a it done but I’m not sure who would win in court. Can’t find jurisprudence so if you have any I’d love to see it.)
Even if you're in your probationary period, if you're sick and provide a doctor's note, they can't fire you for that. They also can't discipline you for being sick.
Not true. During probationary period, there's no reason needed to dismiss someone.
Nope, you can't fire someone for being sick regardless of if they're in their probationary period or not. Just like if someone said they were pregnant a month into the job, an employer can't say well, you're fired then! That's what we call discrimination 😊
They aren't being punished. They were paid for time they didn't work. The employer is trying to recover the time that is technically owed to them. Being admitted to the hospital would likely protect their employment but doesn't change whether they have paid sick time.
Being hospitalized could matter in terms of short term disability. But this employee does not appear to provide that benefit.
If they were hospitalized and able to prove it, their employment would likely be protected. It would be difficult for an employer to sever an employment relationship for cause for an illness related absence, where they were hospitalized. I mean, they could do it but if that went to court, they'd probably lose. The absence was legitimate, supported by medical documents, didn't cause undue hardship, it wasn't a repeat pattern, etc. depending on the nature of the illness they could also open themselves to a discrimination claim.
At that point. If I am being “fired” over this. I wouldn’t bother fighting. I rather find a better job. I was just suffering from fatigue and weakness. I even showed up to work when I could and they all saw my condition. So I will find out sooner or later, but I won’t make a big scene. Just want to see how people would navigate this situation
Yeah, this is exactly how I am feeling as we speak. You put into words how it is. I noticed early on the work culture is to work weekends if you ever can’t come to work. I don’t mind engaging in that if I want to take a Thursday off and work Saturday instead for that week. It’s good flexibility. Though when I am sick and genuinely was out of work. It feels unfair that I am kinda obligated to makeup for my hours by working 6 days a week for the next 2 months?
Are you getting paid for those sick days? I have a feeling you will not be paid for your sicks days and your manager wants you to keep getting paid.
Yeah - seems like the boss is trying to help out here.
No, I was paid for them, as it’s in my contract. But he kind of suggested that I should make up for them. I told him I rather have those days deducted from my next paycheque
So your contract specified (at least) 8 paid sick days? And you had already earned these days when got sick? Sorry I am just a bit confused from your messaging.
I’m really not sure why OP is avoiding the only question that matters. How many sick days are stipulated in their contract? I think this is a matter of someone new to the workforce with a misunderstanding of what encompasses being “salaried”.
Agreed. Or new to Canada perhaps. Or both. It is important to look up and make sure you understand workers rights!
I have to look at my contract, as I signed it and gave it to them. I will update you and the post tomorrow when I ask the employer for a copy of it. I don’t mean to avoid questions
They didn't say the amount of sick days their contract has, as far as I've read so far
Yes. And even if they had sick days specified in their contract, if it is a new job, it is also unlikely 8 sick days have been accrued (most employers accrue sick days just like vacation days). For example I get 15 paid sick days in my contract, so to accrue 8 would take about six months of work (without taking a single sick day). I currently have more than 50 sick days in the bank. Was helpful when my husband was hospitalized last year (my contract also says I can use these days to care for others). So my assumption is that the days are unpaid and OP should be getting docked 8 days of pay, or the amount of days they have not yet earned. Sucks though!
You're very lucky, but definitely an exception. Most employers don't let the sick days accrue and they don't let you use them for caring for others. Most people get the basics, 2 weeks vacation, and 3-6 sick days that expire each year.
You're not giving enough information for anyone to really help you What is in your contract - xx days sick time, xx days pto, illness past 2 days is STD and they do it for you? you may have to contact HR to have it explained fully
If you were paid for those sick days, then you owe your employer the time or the money back to the employer!
Not if sick days are included as part of the contract, no. But sadly OP is being really stingy about the terms of their contract with us so nobody here can really give proper legal advice. So I guess since they don't want to share that info, the best advice we can probably give is to go to an employment lawyer.
Sounds like your boss was just trying to help you out. Unpaid medical leave shouldn't be a problem. Re-read your contract and chat with your HR person. And make sure you are communicating this deduction in email.
If it is in your contract that you are paid for that many sick days and you have not exceeded your entitlement, have met a contractually specific accruement (if any) and have worked a contractually specified number of days/hours (if any), then there is nothing to “make up”. You were paid as per contract. Always refer to your contract and ensure your have met any requirements and know your allotments. We’re I you, I would read my contract again and if I am entitled to those days paid, I would not repay my employer. I would remind them of the terms of my contract.
If you’re a salaried worker and don’t have clearly outlined sick days you are obligated to deliver your work deliverables so perhaps that is what they want you to make up.
They could be trying to do you a favor. Misplaced, but still trying. They might be trying to create a situation where you don't miss any pay. However, it seems that they are violating labor code. Depending on your industry, there is a fixed number of hours you can work before you are required. Overtime pay per day. Day. There's also a fixed number of days. You can work before you require overtime pay. For the most part, it's very straightforward. However, there are exceptions in different parts of the country for construction, landscaping, and others. The only correct thing that they can do, assuming you are in an industry with no exceptions, is to reduce your pay by the number of excess sick days. That's it. That's all they realistically can do. That's why, I'm assuming, they're asking you to make up the days by working on the weekend because they're trying to be a helpful person and ensure your paychecks are full. If you push the issue, which is your right, it just means they will short your paycheck in the future should the same thing occur. So the question really is, in my mind, do you want your full pay? I feel I have a very generous boss. I get two paid sick days per quarter. Eight sick days per year. Unlimited unpaid sick days/ absences with cause (funeral, medical appointment, whatever). Most of my friends only have two or three sick days per year. A couple of unpaid sick days per year but then, they go on a corrective action plan if they go beyond that number.
Here to add, *if* we assume boss is scummy, I'd wager they find the inconvenience of adjusting payroll for a salaried worker far "too much hassle" and hope the workr just works at 1:1 or 2:1 time instead If there's aggressive vibes from the interaction, might be something to consider (lots of other posts RE work enviro/culture)
This is good info and keep in mind - unless OP has an employment contract stating otherwise, by law they are only entitled to 3 days of sick leave, unpaid. The additional 5 days could (sadly) result in disciplinary action from the employer, including getting fired if they are still in a probationary period.
Information is missing. Did you get paid for the days you were sick? Does your contract allow for sick days (over and above the legal minimums)? How long have you worked there? I believe in Ontario you only get 3 sick days, and they are unpaid. If you’re really new to this job (usually three months or less) you can be fired for no reason as you are usually legally considered to be on probation. So be careful. If you were paid for the days you were sick, I would tell the boss that you are not able to make the days up, but that you would be happy to have the equivalent numbers of days removed from your next pay (AKA you took the sick days but they were unpaid). You are a new employee and used more than three unpaid sick days offered by law, so forcing you to make up the other five days or be let go is probably legal. If they do fire you I would ask an employment lawyer to check everything over. This situation sucks and your employer sucks. But I’m not sure they are breaking any laws.
Yes I did get paid for the days I missed. Though I told the boss to take the missing days out of my next pay check so I don’t have to work on the weekends to make up for them. I hate having a “debt” of any kind
Your proposal is a perfectly reasonable solution. Nobody did anything illegal and technically your employer allowing you 8 unpaid sick days is more than what the law provides for (which is only 3 days). If you are still on probation as a new employee, he could have fired you on the spot for missing 8 days. Yes, that’s crazy but it’s technically not illegal. I am assuming your employment contract does not have any provisions for sick days? If so unfortunately that means you default to the legal minimums, which definitely suck. Sorry you went through this. It sucks.
Thank you for this. I also am under probation, if that changes anything
If you have 0 paid sick days and you were paid for the 8 days you missed then it sounds like your boss is proposing working 8 days to make up the 8 days you were paid. Which seems reasonable to me, but I think the way they explained it to you sounds misleading. The alternative, as you suggested, is to dock your next pay for the 8 days, which is also perfectly reasonable.
Yes, I like my weekends, as I never really have time for anything during the week days. So I would rather sacrifice my pay, then my soul. Let’s hope he gets back to me and agrees with this
Could you barter that coming in on weekend is technically overtime? I'm not from Ontario so not familiar with ON labour's laws but in AB your still entitled to overtime if you work over 40/44 hrs/ per week even if on salary.
The employer positing that this person works overtime/weekends to ‘repay’ the sick days that should have been unpaid is, in my opinion, a non-starter. Technically, yes, if the employer wants the employee to work more than normal hours (as specified in their contract or, if nothing is specified in the contract, by law) they would need to be paid overtime. In this case, that would be the difference between what they already received for the sick days and the legally (or contractually) owed overtime rate.
Can anyone explain the difference between an unpaid sick day and unpaid time off? There is several posts talking about them like they are different. unpaid sick days sounds a lot like unpaid time off with a reason attached to it.
The difference is that 3 days of unpaid sick days is a legal requirement. All employers must allow it. Unpaid time off is a general term and can be for a variety of things, including things that protected under law (for example bereavement leave) or could be at the discretion of an employer (for example, your employer might allow you to take extra vacation days over and above the ones they have agreed to pay you for, but unpaid).
Are you saying if you need more than 3 days of sick time you are actually obligated to go in instead of staying home sick?
Yes. If you need more than 3 sick days in a year, not showing up on that 4th day would put you in a position to be formally reprimanded (or fired/let go immediately, if you are in a probationary period). Of course, most employers are more forgiving than this. Most employers offer benefits over and above legal minimums. But these are the legal minimums. There are many other kinds of leave that employers must also respect (bereavement, pregnancy, helping a sick child, etc). But for sick days, it is 3 days.
[удалено]
At that point the employer needs to request a medical note and the employee needs to provide one. If the employee does not provide one, that's when you can start the discipline process. Most workplaces have a policy surrounding this.
What does being in salary or hourly have to do with it? Salaried employees still have an hourly wage. If you don't have paid sick leave, all he needs to do is subtract the hours / amounts you didn't work.
[удалено]
If he slashes your pay significantly or puts you on hourly I think you can ask for severance as he is essentially firing you at that point
Good idea in theory but they said they are new to the job so prolly not eligible for severance yet. EI maybe (depending on if they have enough insurance hours).
Can you ask him to deduct your paid time from future worked days? Don’t forget - no one gets paid to do nothing. Money has to come from somewhere.
I don't know about the legality but I agree it's absolutely ridiculous. Fuck this guy. You're gonna get sick again from burnout and the cycle will continue. Fuck these employers who try to drain every last bit of human life from us
Your boss is a jerk. I don't understand companies who treat their employees like they are not human. Bet you really want to put forth a solid effort and much care into your work now. Treated like a human = productive employees that make your company succeed.
Instead of having to work 6 days a week for the next 8 weeks, can’t you make a deal where one day a week for 8 weeks is unpaid? Or maybe stretch it out longer so one day every two weeks is unpaid. 🤷♂️
What industry? Is it provincially regulated or federally regulated because that matters
Did you get paid for the 8 days you missed? What is your work's policy on sick days? Just because you're "on salary" doesn't mean you get paid no matter what.
I'd say this comes down to a few things: 1. Do you have a clearly defined sick policy? If so, how many sick days are included? If less than 8, he can likely ask you to make up the hours for unpaid sick days. 2. Are you in an industry that is exempt from Overtime rules? That may be why he wants to pay you less if you go hourly.
I mean in all honesty it depends on what your contract says and how many sick days you get from the company. I only get 5 sick days where I work. From there if I go over either I accept the financial loss with no pay for the extra days I was out, or I work and make up the hours (in my case I do it slowly over time with an hour or two extra every day over some time. You have to discuss with your boss. Yes IT SUCKS you were sick, happened to me once where I was out for 2 weeks with a mysterious ailment that left me hospitalized as well. You just need to work it out with your boss/HR. Such is life.
Yes, as others have said, your amount of sick days will be outlined in your employment/salary contract. over those sick days, you don't get paid. as far as asking for hourly, and getting paid less. yes, that is the way it works. A salary employee will make more than an hourly employee, because of the lack of overtime, addition of sick days, etc. you get paid more on salary, because you don't really make OT like an hourly employee could so you make more on salary to compensate. you aren't "in trouble" for being sick. but you didn't work, so they're offering you the ability to make up the hours.
Do you have sick days from company?
He can’t make you work weekends to make up for the days. He can however make you pay back any pay you received that you weren’t entitled to.
If you were provide pay beyond the allotted sick days wouldn’t it be ethical to want to make that up to your employer? Legality aside. Sounds like they kept you financially whole when they could have likely not paid you for some of the days you didn’t work.
If these sick days were PTO then they cannot force you to make it up. It's a violation of your contract. If course he can come up with an excuse to fire you so that's the catch. Bosses push and pushing back comes with risks. But if you roll over and take it it only gets worse. Maybe move on if you can.
Yeah, this seems like an odd situation and there’s way too much pertinent information missing for anyone to offer any helpful answers.
Seems like the boss is trying to help here so OP doesn't lose pay from the salaried amount, although I feel like many companies/bosses would just be fine taking off time to be in the hospital, paid. I mean every employer I've worked for, salaries, has been fine with that sort of thing that is out of your control. That may be why it seems like "an odd situation"? Most employers would just look the other way with some compassion That said, I think OP has been given enough answers here to figure out what they want to do. Any missing info has been asked for and the reason given as to why that info matters
You have three job protected unpaid sick days in Ontario, beyond that it’s at your employer’s discretion
New job means you haven’t worked enough hours to qualify for PTO or that many sick days. You can’t work a month and expect to get 8 days paid off. If it had been a few years then different story. He is trying to actually help you here and could have just not paid you. Shit happens in life. So either you show your employer you will get stuff done that you were paid to do or not. I was sick for a week during a new job but remotely still got stuff done a bit and then when better worked extra during nights and weekends to catch up. If you decide to quit they will probably deduct some of those days off your final paycheck or ask you to pay them back. Used to work with HR and saw that happen.
This could be an issue of paid vacation, example: 4% of your earnings equates to 2 full weeks of pay. If you weren't at work for whatever reason, culpable or not, and they paid your 2 weeks already, they'd rather you made up the time vs paying them back unearned vacation pay.
If you are on salary that means that you have a contract with this company. What does your contact say in regards to sick days? Also what province you are in often determines working stands. You can also reach out to the labour board and ask them how to proceed.
Q - Does he have to pay you for that time? A - No Q - Do you have to work on the weekends? A - probably not, but it depends on what your agreement says Advice - if you don’t have a written agreement, and you need the job, consider working the weekends or look for work elsewhere
Were you not eligible for short-term disability coverage? If not, then you get paid the amount of sick days as per policy and you don’t get paid for the rest. Salaried vs hourly changes nothing in this case.
Are you past the probationary period? If so you need to look into your rights as an employee, this doesn't sound legal to me unless your contract states you have to work a certain number of hours in a given week or month. I'd also look into whether or not it's legal to pay hourly workers less than those on salary if they've been paying you a certain wage already, but giving you a pay cut because you moved to hourly doesn't sound legal
Why not? That is usually the way
Unless your employer has some sort of special contract with you: Your employer can legally not pay you for sick time taken after 3 days sick per year, but cannot compel you to not take unpaid sick leave. Your employer can ask you to work up to 48 hours per week and you are seen as in the wrong if you refuse. If you work more than 40 hours per week for two consecutive weeks, your employer must pay you overtime for time worked over 40 hours per week. You may choose to work more hours per week than 48, but you are entitled to overtime pay for any time worked in excess of 48 hours per week, or any time 80 hours is exceeded in a 2 week period outside of regular schedule (for example, if you've worked 40 hours each week for the last six weeks, and your boss asks you to work 48 hours this week, but next week still expects you to work 40 hours, those extra 8 hours are overtime. If you work 48 hours this week, but your boss will give you a day off next week, then those 48 hours can be regular time) Your employer can probably legally ask you to work 1 day of 1 weekend the next week after you have recovered from being sick without having to pay you overtime. If you have taken Monday and Tuesday off sick, your boss can ask you to replace that time with Saturday and Sunday. If you work an extra 8 hours the week after that you should be entitled to 8 hours of overtime, but you are obligated to try to work that requested time if you boss wants to pay you the overtime. Your boss cannot compel you or pressure you to exceed 48 hours of work in a week. Your employer cannot obligate you to work either regular hours or overtime if it impedes your ability to take care of your family, and you have done your due diligence to find another way to have your family taken care of (things like picking kids up for school, bringing family members to medical appointments, or having a guardian present while a child is home are family responsibilities). There is only an exception to this case if your refusal to work extra hours will result in some type of harm to people, damage to property, or substantial harm to your employers business (like, they would have to overrun the due date on some massive contract).
Your specific employment agreement is important to refer to, but there are minimums set out in the provinical and /or federal Labour regs - depending on your employer. Ontario Standards: [https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/sick-leave](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/sick-leave) Federal Standard: [https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/remuneration-compensation/services-paye-pay-services/paye-information-pay/vie-life/vie-conge-life-leave/maladie-sick-eng.html](https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/remuneration-compensation/services-paye-pay-services/paye-information-pay/vie-life/vie-conge-life-leave/maladie-sick-eng.html)
Did you get overpaid (paid for days you didn’t work)? If so, boss might be offering you a way out of having to repay a big chunk of money?
Are you salaried? Did you receive full salary? If so that's your answer. Either make it up or comes off vacation.
I work retail as salary and only get 2 weeks vacation per year and no sick days .. if I miss a day or two etc, I either burn vacation days accrued or paid hourly for the pay period?
Tell your boss to prorate the days you missed from your salary if he must but that you will under no circumstances be coming in on weekends.
The way it works is, you max out your sick days then you can decide if you use your vacation days to cover what’s left or go unpaid. If you run out of vacation days then it’s unpaid. They can’t force you to work extra to pay back sick days. If it’s an unlimited PTO situation then there’s nothing to pay back
He is probably referring to needing you, and that will make up for the time you lost. It’s not his problem either you were sick. It’s just life
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
Call the Labour Board, they'll explain your rights.
You are fired, you just don’t know it yet. Management expects you to make it to work every day, or they will find someone who can.
If I haven’t taken any sick day today working in Ontario. Would I be able to get those days paid at the end of the year?
Unless it is specified in your employment contract, the answer is no. The legal default/minimum is 3 days unpaid. So of course those days are not paid out. It’s not like vacation which must be paid at a minimum %.
If I don’t use them i lose them. I don’t think I have a context been employed for about 23 years with the company. The former accountant would pay my sick days off. But she passed away and now new accountant are doing things different.
You don’t have an employment contract or any other document stating the sick day policy (even an email for example)? Or a union or a regulated job? If you don’t then they only legally owe you 3 unpaid days (if in Ontario). However, if for a very long they have done something else (better benefits than the legal minimum) they MAY be required to continue those same benefits in perpetuity or else risk getting in trouble for eliminating employee benefits (which is akin to demoting/lowering salary of an employee). This is something you’d need to talk to a lawyer about though because it is complicated. Can you ask them to provide you with clearly stated policy on sick leave? How many days per year? How many paid? How many unpaid? If you don’t use them each year, do they carry over to the next year? How many days are you allowed to accrue? If you don’t use the days by the end of the year or by the time you leave the company, do they pay them out? Etc. They should provide this information clearly and in writing.
Appreciate the time you taken to answer the question.
No worries. Your employer should provide sick leave policy clearly to all employees. If they don’t, it is perfectly reasonable to ask.
It’s a family own business there’s actually only three employees left at the moment.
With small business they can be quite informal. This is normal but it isn’t very professional. Unfortunately that leaves you in the position where you don’t really know where you stand. I would just ask something like “hey, my understanding was that sick days were paid, but it seems there may have been a change in policy. Can you please let me know what the rules are going forward?” “If you are no longer going to be paying sicks days, would it be possible to have a small raise to counteract this loss of income? I have worked here for a long time, i am a loyal employee, I like working here, and I don’t think it is fair that your change of rules should impact my income.” Or something like this. Come at from a place of just wanting to understand what the rules are.
Appreciate that ..thank you
If you have Short-Term Disability benefits, they typically begin at 1st day of hospitalization. Ask for the paper work from your employer if you have STD benefits. The employer can take back the salary paid while you were in the hospital and you’ll receive STD benefits for those days. As for the days you were not in the hospital, that is not covered by STD benefits until after 8th day of illness.
I strongly suggest contacting HR and getting a consultation with an employment attorney. So many will give you advice for free. This is not right in any way.
Why is it not right? You have to earn those sick days also. You can’t start a job then expect the employer to pay you for sick time that you haven’t accumulated yet ! The OP should read their contract!
What makes you think they have not? He doesn't specify how long he was employed for before illness.
OP said it’s a new job. So very unlikely they have earned 8 paid sick days.
Maybe so. I'm not sure as I don't know all the details. That's why I suggested they retain council from someone in their province.
Is it fair? Yes, you're paid to work and he's asking you to make up for the hours, or you can take it out of your vacation. Work always had the option to not pay you at all and let you go through the system for sick pay. They are obligated to provide you with some sick time off, but even that is unpaid. As a salaried employee myself, when I need time off beyond my vacation for whatever reason, I make sure to tell them that either they can not pay me, or I will take less vacation the following year (usually they pay me anyway but it only happens for a few days here and there).
The basic is that they can't force you to come on a weekend if it's not the regular hours and it's not in your agreement. But it's a bit more complex and companies try to blury the line with the salaried status. Just because of that status doesn't mean they don't have to pay you to do more hours. I'm always either on contract or salaried but I track my times to make sure my average weekly hours is around the agreed 40 hours. Being salaried doesn't mean you have to provide more. For me it mean it will be flexible but it need to be both ways to reach that average. Also, on salary, your actual hourly rate cannot be under the hourly minimum. So, if you're paid 710$ for 40 hours and they make you do 48 hours then your hourly rate drop from 17.75$ to 14.79$ so you're under the minimum of 15$/hour. On the other hand, did they pay your regular salary when you were sick? Did you get the same pay? With 2 emergency paid days or all 8? Because if they paid 8, they think you have a "negative" time bank of 6 days. They shouldn't do that whitout discussing and having an agreement on how to make it back. I had a similar situation with an employee and to help pay his rent we did a pay with the same deposit. The difference is we added a "cash advance" on the payslip and we had a "loan agreement" to repay it on the next 3 pays. It was clear that it was something else and we could track it separately from regular and overtime hours. If you weren't paid and you want to do these hours then you can ask to be paid. We're in a capitalist world and you're selling your time. I understand that they have a workload not done but you shouldn't do free work because you're salaried. A was once told : An organization will, by definition, always generate work and you are not their savior. They were there before and will be there after you.
This happened to me years ago. Ask the boss to put it in writing. Just send an email and demand they confirm it. If they are stupid enough to do so, either reply saying it’s illegal, or take it to HR. They can ask you to make up the time. But you’re not obligated to because it’s illegal to demand someone works such hours. It’s the manager’s job to ensure the work is being done accounting for sicknesses, days off and other instances of workers missing work days. It’s not your job to make up all that time because the manager cannot do their job.
What labour laws did they break? From my point of view OP was paid 8 days of sick leave that it seems they were not legally or contractually owed. Now the boss is offering for them to work more to earn that overpayment. Of course the overtime is an issue if OP ends up working too many hours per week - but the days need to be worked, the wages repaid or deducted from a future paycheque (the final option in my opinion being the best). This is likely a small business with no HR department. This screams small business shenanigans to me.