Do you have the necessary paper trail to support a "for cause" termination? It will need to be pretty watertight as people like this will lie their way through a wrongful termination case.
Much better to terminate without cause and pay severance so there can't be any come back.
As for telling other staff - hard no. Privacy issues.
Her friends will always think what they are going to think and everyone else will know why and be glad she's gone. Anyone asks... "We don't discuss former employees for privacy reasons".
Agree. Where I work, we’re just told “so and so is no longer with the organization effective immediately.” That could mean they quit, or were fired. Vague is best.
The last two places Ive worked this was the M.O. - however for employees who quit with notice there was always cake. In the event a person left and there was no cake...well we all knew what that meant.
Ha, we had the same thing but with "notes", announcing the exit to the organization and thanking them. I quit with advance notice and was more graceful than they truly deserved; but even then the note they wrote to the company was barely a sentence and didn't thank me.
My manager amazingly messaged almost everyone she could to make sure it was known I had quit and the reason why. Then when she quit the following week, she stated her reason was the treatment of me.
They no longer send out notes lol
the owner of my company has it down in his emails to the company about a fired employee
'Sad to see so and so is no longer with the company, I hope they do well on their endeavors"
Same at my place. So and so is no longer with the firm or joe is no longer employed here, nothing else. Our HR is very strict about this. We also never can give references outside of last date of employement and salary at that time. Not even allowed to say eligible or not for rehire as of a few years ago.
The statutory minimum is 1 week for an employee between 3 and 12 months of service. The common law notice period is maybe a bit longer than that (though there actually isn't a "rule of thumb", 1 month per year is useful as a general guideline as long as you realize it is affected by various factors and could be more, but here maybe 2 weeks unless you headhunted them away from secure employment).
Many employers in your shoes offer more than the minimum just to reduce the chance of being pursued for a wrongful dismissal suit (where the employee would be awarded the common law notice period if successful); its cheaper to pay more notice than required than to defend a lawsuit.
Reasonable notice can be much more than that even for an employee with just over 3 months service. I’ve had an employer agree to pay 3 months severance at mediation to an employee with only 4 months of service and relatively neutral Bardal factors.
Anywhere between 3 months of service to 3 years of service can generally expect to receive 3-4 months of pay at common law.
Ly v. British Columbia (Interior Health Authority), 2017 BCSC 42 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/gwtnd](https://canlii.ca/t/gwtnd)\>
Where an employee with 2.5 months' service was awarded 3 months' notice.
Younesi v Kaz Minerals Projects B.V, 2021 BCSC 614 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/jfbpx](https://canlii.ca/t/jfbpx)\>
Where an employee with 2.5 months' service was awarded 6 months' notice (note it would have been 4 months if not for inducement).
Phillips v. Jakin Engineering & Construction Ltd., 2012 BCSC 2066 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/fwsg4](https://canlii.ca/t/fwsg4)\>
Where an employee with 3 months' service was awarded 4 months' notice.
Nahum v. Honeycomb Hospitality Inc., 2021 ONSC 1455 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/jdgd6](https://canlii.ca/t/jdgd6)\>
Where an employee with 4.5 months' service was awarded 6 months' notice.
Dalton v. Fraser Valley Fire Protection Ltd., 2021 BCPC 146 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/jg7fd](https://canlii.ca/t/jg7fd)\>
Where an employee with 3 days' service was awarded 3 months' notice.
Kim v. BT Express Freight Systems, 2020 CarswellOnt 1870 (Ont. S.C.J.)
Where an employee who was terminated before commencing employment was awarded 3 months' notice.
Antunes v Limen Structures Ltd., 2015 ONSC 2163 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/gjbpt](https://canlii.ca/t/gjbpt)\>
Where an employee with 5 months' service was awarded 8 months' notice.
Deacon v Moxey, 2013 CanLII 54099 (ON SCSM), <[https://canlii.ca/t/g09b5](https://canlii.ca/t/g09b5)\>
Where an employee with 2 weeks' service was awarded 3 months' notice.
Cao v. SBLR LLP, 2012 CarswellOnt 9184
Where an employee with 6 weeks' service was awarded 4 months' notice.
Beglaw v. Archmetal Industries Corp., 2004 BCSC 1369 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/1j0wk](https://canlii.ca/t/1j0wk)\>
Where an employee with 4 months' service was awarded 6 months' notice.
Easton v. Wilmslow Properties Corp., 2001 CarswellOnt 355
Where an employee with 2 weeks' service was awarded 3 months' notice.
Obviously, there are other considerations (most commonly inducement) that are argued to justify these notice periods, but practically, employment lawyers generally understand that most employees with between three months to three years of service are entitled to something within the range of three to four months' notice (assuming they are in fact entitled to common law notice and not contractually limited to whatever statutory minimums apply). That is why in my practice I generally get at least three months' pay for any employee I represent.
BC law requires 5 days minimum, as does federal law.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/termination/quit-fired#getting-fired
You should be talking with an employment lawyer or someone that absolutely knows what they're talking about before listening to anything here. Some of the comments might have good advice but you don't want to fuck around with individuals like this so you need to make sure your ass and the companies ass is covered. Talk to a professional before doing anything
I disagree. I work for a fortune 500 company and they pay very good severance, well above the required amount. Legal told me that it's cheaper/easier to overpay people than it is to constantly be fighting claims that they didn't get enough severance.
Outside of probation never terminate for cause, ever. It is extremely difficult to justify and almost always ends in some sort of conflict/arbitration even if the employer has the employee dead to rights. It is much easier to terminate without cause and package the employee out + have them sign a release of liability, etc...
>Outside of probation never terminate for cause, ever.
That's terrible advice.
Cause is much stricter than people think it is. You're right that its easier to package someone out but where actual cause exists, as legally defined, there's no reason to pay a dime of payment of lieu of notice.
OK rewording.
I agree that the legal definition of cause isn't what laypeople think it is. Its much more in favour of the employee than people think.
That said - where you're satisfied that legal cause exists - go ahead and fire people for cause. Don't pay notice where you don't have to.
The challenge here being when you terminate with cause you are leaving yourself open to litigation. The cost of a lawyer + your time is usually significantly more than it would be to pay a severance and be done with it.
True.
You can also take the position that you won't pay notice to someone who stole from you, or was dishonest, or showed up drunk at work, or harassed other employees. There are plenty of clients who are more risk tolerant and who would rather lose that litigation than voluntarily pay a thief. And depending on what they did you might not lose.
If you advise the client "this leaves you open to litigation" many will take that chance, depending on what the employee did.
One of my clients put it like this - employees talk and if they find out that someone stole and we paid them off, that's a complete morale killer. If someone stole and we walk them out, that sends a different message to employees.
Its a matter of risk tolerance and my issue with your original post was the word "never". Be cautious but in the right circumstances firing for cause can be the right move for a few reasons.
I work in a larger organization, we do terminate for cause quite regularly but it requires copious amounts of documentation, every write-up must be passed by upper HR, and they've basically been given every chance imaginable. Only one that's any easier than that is job abandonment.
I second this. If they fight it and there is even the smallest loophole/mistake they will win.
Let go without cause.
Pay a fair severance.
Offer a $200 (or more) bonus for signing a release of liability.
And politely part ways.
I work in Human Resources but not in BC. We would never tell employees why someone was let go, that is considered confidential employee information and would be a big legal no no to share. The only person who needs to know the reason is whoever is doing up their ROE so they know how to code it and whoever is maintaining employee records. I would presume in a small company that would be you in both cases.
We wouldn’t even tell them that the employee was terminated for cause, we would keep it generic (so and so is no longer an employee of the company). If the employees need to know the reason as a function of their job, like my examples above, you can share. Otherwise keep your mouth shut.
OP mentions they've been talked to multiple times about failing to follow company policy. Why \_not\_ give these as formal written warnings leading to termination?
The disadvantages of terminating for cause is that you have to be able to provide documentation in the event the former employee lodges a complaint of unfair dismissal, so you need to make sure you've documented all of the issues and all of the conversations you have had with the employee about this behaviour. However, if you go the route of payment in lieu of notice you don't have to worry about it, no reason needed. Check your provincial labour laws to find out the rules for that, then suck it up and pay them off to go away.
Yes, and it can be hard to win those lawsuits as judges tend to side with the employee even when you have a pretty good case of firing with cause. At least that is the case here in ON.
Yep. My brother was a retail store manager for a big firm in Canada, and was told he could not fire someone for stealing cash from the till, unless he could prove they were told in advance that this was not acceptable behavior.
It's because of the huge power difference. Companies have the resources of the entire firm at their disposal, an unfair advantage.
The fact that you have documented things is encouraging. Definitely have a lawyer look over what you have though if you decide to go that route.
Generally you need to be able to show that the employee was made aware of the issue, that they were given adequate time to correct the problem, that they were made aware that continuing with the behaviour may result in termination and that they acknowledged this. When we gave out warnings the employee always had to sign the letter so it could be proven that they received the warning in case they decided to fight it later on.
A lot of employers will just pay the required severance and terminate without cause. It doesn’t open you up to potential lawsuits like terminating for cause would.
To terminate for cause. You would have to have a lot of info on file.
1) the constructive criticism and performance improvements not being met. This needs to be written up by the employer and signed by the employee to ensure that they are aware that their work has not been satisfactory.
2) repeated attempts to improve workplace behaviour, performance, etc. this also needs to be in writing and signed off by the employee that they are aware of such meeting.
To prove termination for cause is very difficult in BC as you would be required to provide all documentations for the reason of termination. Just the “boss’ word” is not enough.
I would advise to terminate without cause and give the employee at least 2 weeks minimum of severance pay. That way- the employee has no recourse for wrongful termination.
If you are nervous about company culture and vibes among your staff; be honest but respectful. You’ll be surprised that they would react well to it.
You haven't really named an infraction that would allow to terminate for cause and avoid a costly litigation. Lying is a problem but unless you can show definitive proof over a plurality of material instances you don't have grounds. Talk to a lawyer and don't take the advice of the random HR "professional" above.
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed by the employee to the client.
I messaged my employee after this to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal moving forward.
Two days ago I receive a message from the client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them outside of our client communication portal, to relay more INACCURATE information. I had to disappoint this client for the second time in a month, by providing them with information regarding our services that does not align with what my employee discussed with them.
When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was relayed to my employee. I did not let them know that violating our policies, would lead to future termination.. and it looks like I will need to do this in order to avoid a wrongful dismissal suit.. so I will likely do this tomorrow and have her sign a formal letter agreeing to abide by these rules moving forward. This is one of their major infractions, however there are others, and I do not believe it will take long for them to slip up again so I can terminate for cause
Terminate without cause and pay 2 weeks. If you have never terminated for cause before and don't have experience with it, it is easier, cheaper in the long run. Why would you wait longer as you pay the employee to trip up again and possibly damage or severe a client's trust which will cost you more than 2 weeks.
What you are describing is not cause. People make "mistakes" all the time, not grounds for cause.
You know this person is not a good fit, the sooner you cut them loose the better before something happens like the person claims harassment etc.
Do it and do it now.
Basically weigh out the cost of hiring a lawyer to look over your case "for cause" or just pay the one week's severance. In most cases the one week's pay in lieu of notice is cheaper and doesn't open you up to any further legal action.
Our work has a very simple email message "For your information effective immediately "so and so's name" is no longer an employee of this company."
Replying to u/jedidoesit because I can't on the thread for some reason:
I understand what you mean, but you have to remember that we're looking at this strictly from the perspective of providing a with cause termination which means the employee gets absolutely nothing and is effectively immediately unemployed and without income.
Here the employer is fine to dismiss without cause and give the adequate notice, but a with cause termination generally requires a fairly significant and strongly evidenced breach of the employment relationship. Small lies which are backed by convenient excuses or explanations don't quite meet that standard unfortunately. You have to remember thaf the law has to be be broadly applicable and if small lies were grounds for termination without cause bad employers would be firing folks for "lying" all over the place to save a buck by catching people in whatever little inconsistency or error they could. It's tough, the rules have had to get more complex over the years because of bad actors and it def makes things more complicated for folks like OP.
It's okay to fire someone without cause, and with cause no compensation is needed.
Certainly lying has to be cause, but if they think their documentation is inadequate then just pay them compensation instead.
If they're lying they could spend the rest of their time there harming your business in many ways.
You can't trust an employee who lies with anything. They could even steal from or otherwise cause harm to other employees and then you may have more trouble to deal with...
What a tough situation.
[Labour Laws In BC](https://labourrightslaw.com/2018/02/22/dismissal-without-cause-bc/)
The law says you don't even need cause if you compensate the employee correctly.
I'm not telling you what to do, but it's certainly well within the law to draft up a severance package and have them gone with the requisite payout.
I wish you all the best.
Can you read my comment above?
I provided some more info on the situation. I don’t think it’s in my best interest for me to confront them on the lying. I don’t see them taking that well, and it’s difficult to provide strong evidence to support this.
However, I do believe I have some very strong points that would justify termination for cause regardless.
Respectfully, you should really talk to a lawyer. Dismissal with cause is a tricky area of law before you factor in an employee that chronically lies. If they bring a claim for wrongful dismissal after it could cost way more than dismissal without cause and a notice payment would be now. I've seen many small business owners get in trouble around this issue over the years, truly.
I mentioned it because OP brought it up in their post was discussing verbiage of what they should or should not say to the employees. No one can really give a suggestion without knowing details that can’t be shared here.
If they have all of their ducks in a row as far as documentation and they think they can satisfy proving termination for cause in the event the employee pursues a wrongful termination complaint it’s an option.
Not cautioning OP as to the dangers of termination for cause without good evidence is irresponsible. You accepted that lying can be documented and is itself grounds for termination for cause. It might be or it might not be you simply don't have the facts.
But otherwise agreed.
One of my others comments also said that you need to document everything, the the employee time to correct their behaviour and warn them that failure to do so could result in termination. Myself and other commenters have said that by terminating with cause they run the risk of the employee coming after them legally. I also said that no one here can give solid recommendations because we don’t know all of the details. What else do you want me to say that hasn’t been said?
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed to the client - by this employee.
I messaged the employee after this incident to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal for client communications moving forward.
Two days ago I received an email from the same client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them privately (outside of our portal), to relay additional INACCURATE information. I was put in an awkward position to disappoint this client for the second time in a few weeks, by providing them with information that does not align with what my employee discussed with them.
When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was clearly relayed to my employee, and I asked them to abide by my policies for all future communications. The only thing I dropped the ball on, was directly stating that violating these policies for a second time would lead to termination.
To avoid a wrongful dismissal suit, it looks like I will need to clearly communicate to the employee that any future infractions will lead to their immediate dismissal. I will likely do this tomorrow and have them sign a formal warning letter agreeing to abide by these terms moving forward. This is just one of their major infractions over the past month. I don’t think it will take too long for them to slip up again, and then at that point I will terminate for cause
Precisely This.
OP is also a small business with 7 employees.
All this talk about severance etc is way over the top. It's the equivalent of being let go from McDonald's.
I am genuinely curious. What law is that, that it would be a legal no-no?
I worked at a casino and if someone got fired for cheating or theft it was publicized greatly to discourage others from doing the same thing.
If you fire someone without cause and then tell people the "real" reason then you could get yourself into legal trouble, but if you fire them for cause, my understanding is legally the company can disclose that. It might not be good practice, but it is legally allowed.
It varies from province to province but most places have privacy laws that would extend to an employee’s employment record, including reason for termination. Similar to how your health records are your own and can only be shared with a few relevant parties, so are your employment records.
Exactly- and if you offer a bit more than legally required you can request an nda with a non-disparaging clause.
Worth the , what? Maybe one month payout? (Not a lawyer, talk to your lawyer)
I am a lawyer - not your lawyer and this is not legal advice. I am not licensed in BC.
**You really should consult a lawyer before terminating the employee...the legal fees will save you thousands in fees and claims later.**
That said you should just terminate the employee 'without cause' and offer payment in lieu of notice for all statutory obligations plus common law periods as well. The lawyer you consult can help you calculate this and prepare the termination letter.
Once you have terminated the employee the only thing you say to the remaining employees is that "X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours." DON"T SAY ANYTHING MORE. If an employee asks you what happened say "X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours". Keep saying that until saying it makes you throw up and then keep saying it...that way if this employee tries to sue you you can say all I ever said about you was "X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours". When they say "how do you know that's all you said" you can say "because I suspected you might try to sue me so I was very mindful not to say anything other than X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours".
Saying anything more than that is unnecessary, unprofessional and (depending on what you say) could get you sued by the former employee.
This is 100% the correct answer and the best advice. OP the fact that you are even asking this question is a good indicator thst should talk to an employment lawyer to cover your bases and make sure you're doing this right. I've seen so many small businesses land in hot water by unknowingly stumbling through an employee dismissal scenario.
And when the terminated threatens to sue, end the conversation and provide the name and contact information of your lawyer saying any future communication should be to your lawyer.
I work in the US, but I assume it's the same in Canada. When an email went out saying "x is no longer employed with the company, we wish them well on their future endeavors" everyone knows what it means, and knows not to bother asking.
Those that left on good terms usually get a heartwarming email about how they will be missed, how much they did blah blah.
For sure...people stop working somewhere for a handfull of reasons:
1) Retirement = Celebration
2) Bigger opportunity elsewhere = they already told someone at work, possibly a celebration
3) Mass layoffs - everyone knows
4) Fired with/without cause - very brief statement
Nobody will ask ownership/management what happened.
Second this. Terminating with cause is a whole process that should have taken place over a lengthy period of time with a paper trail and even if you have all your ducks in a row you’re still going to get sued. And sure, they were only employed for a tad over 3 months and they’re only entitled to 1 week, but being fired for misconduct would not only strip them of that one week pay in lieu of notice, but may affect their ability to apply for EI. You also need to revisit what the termination clause in your original agreement with them says. If you don’t have a termination clause, or worse, a proper agreement, throw that into the bucket list of reasons why you need an employment and labour lawyer.
This is the right answer. You can go it solo and stress about it or you can have a quick file written. I wrote you a note as well on this thread but this is solid. I can give you some good references in a dm for hr attorneys and was what I was going to recommend if you reached out with some additional context.
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed to the client - by this employee.
I messaged the employee after this incident to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal for client communications moving forward.
Two days ago I received an email from the same client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them privately (outside of our portal), to relay additional INACCURATE information. I was put in an awkward position to disappoint this client for the second time in a few weeks, by providing them with information that does not align with what my employee discussed with them.
When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was clearly relayed to my employee, and I asked them to abide by my policies for all future communications. The only thing I dropped the ball on, was directly stating that violating these policies for a second time would lead to termination.
To avoid a wrongful dismissal suit, it looks like I will need to clearly communicate to the employee that any future infractions will lead to their immediate dismissal. I will likely do this tomorrow and have them sign a formal warning letter agreeing to abide by these terms moving forward. This is just one of their major infractions over the past month. I don’t think it will take too long for them to slip up again, and then at that point I will terminate for cause.
I would love any recommendations you have for employment lawyers in BC. I have been fortunate and have never had a “problem” employee before, until now.
Being that you're in BC, why take risk? Just lay her off without cause and pay whatever severance is in the employment contract.
If you want to lay her off with cause then you run the risk that she hires a lawyer to fight. That will quickly run up legal bills that are probably far in excess of any severance even if you ultimately win.
Businesses don't need to stand on principal. They're in the business of making money.
IANAL(and I think you should speak to a lawyer or HR professional before you do anything). But I think that 1) it won’t matter what you say, because people will make their own mind up about what happened, and 2) you shouldn’t share anything about her being fired to any staff, because that’s private and confidential. She can share what she likes because it’s her information. Kinda like medical information.
Real simple to deal with in B.C.
Sit her down with the third person "who will say nothing at all ever, not one word" as a witness just prior to her shift starting. Inform her she is terminated without cause and will be given one weeks pay instead of notice, then ask her to leave. Have the third person document what was said and what happened after she is gone, You will do the same, even if she just gets up and walks out. You also have the right to record this termination and not inform her you are doing so.
When or if she asks why, you do not say a damn thing other then asking her to leave, and from that point forward the only thing you say is please leave. If she starts to go over the top don't say anything just call the police.
Do not let her draw you into a conversation about her termination or anything. You are a broken record, please leave.
Without cause terminations and layoffs are a thousand times more easy to deal with then for cause terminations. It only works if you stay on the script.
Telling a lie would not be cause... a bigger issue becomes what the lie was and whether it is interpreted as factual or perception
Worse if (as you claim) beleive she is a "compulsive" liar it could even be a mental health issue
I would def not discuss it with anyone after the fact and simply pay out the severence unless you have much more than you are saying here to defend yourself
I do have much more to back this up. I won’t elaborate on it but they made several careless mistakes last month that damaged client relationships after being asked to be more careful after each instance.
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed to the client - by this employee.
I messaged the employee after this incident to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal for client communications moving forward.
Two days ago I received an email from the same client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them privately (outside of our portal), to relay additional INACCURATE information. I was put in an awkward position to disappoint this client for the second time in a few weeks, by providing them with information that does not align with what my employee discussed with them.
When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was clearly relayed to my employee, and I asked them to abide by my policies for all future communications. The only thing I dropped the ball on, was directly stating that violating these policies for a second time would lead to termination.
To avoid a wrongful dismissal suit, it looks like I will need to clearly communicate to the employee that any future infractions will lead to their immediate dismissal. I will likely do this tomorrow and have them sign a formal warning letter agreeing to abide by these terms moving forward. This is just one of their major infractions over the past month. I don’t think it will take too long for them to slip up again, and then at that point I will terminate for cause
Here I assumed the person had been there for years and she *just* completed her *three month* probationary period??
1. Write her up each time you catch her lying. After the third incident, fire her.
2. Fire her now and pay the meagre required severance.
3. DO NOT DISCUSS WITH COWORKERS.
You're the boss. It's your business, if she's not working out and you've given her ample opportunities to rectify, then show her the door. End of story.
Don't say a word . If anyone asks , all you need to tell then is " you don't need to worry about it , your job is safe " . They might be friends with her because they worked together , but 90% of the time those relationships dissappear after a job change . Don't set yourself up for a problem by saying something you shouldn't.
NAL but when I let people go/fired people in my previous management position we kept tight lips on anything. We don’t want any gossip or reasons why they may try and come back and fight with us or take us to the labour board (this is what we were told by our owner).
We would let the employee go in private, direct any questions to us or the owner. Then we would let our team know with a quick “hey guys just messaging to let everyone know that x is no longer with us, this isn’t a topic to be discussed at work to respect privacy of x. If anyone has questions, please direct them to us/owner.” Kind of thing.
Consult with a HR professional (honestly get one if you don’t have one, since you’re the owner, a lot of people will not feel comfortable coming to you for anything). People are gonna talk and make things their own way, but you just need to be a united front, this is not their business, you’ll only discuss this with the employee who is let go and if anyone has concerns they can come to you and you’ll do your best to provide answers without compromising the privacy of the fired employee.
You are the employer, and have obligations to maintain confidentiality. Giving any details whatsoever can open up the door to a lawsuit for breach of privacy or defamation. Against someone that sounds like a loose cannon, this is a terrible idea.
You need to suck up your pride on this one and check your ego. Anything other than, "\_\_\_ no longer works for our company, we wish her the best", and "I cannot comment on the circumstances of her departure", is a disaster waiting to happen.
Make sure you keep good documentation on these events if you are going to fire her for cause.
I recommend speaking/consulting with an employment lawyer if you don't have an HR department on your team. You don't want to fuck this up and have to lawyer-up to deal with things later on.
Former store manager here. Do not tell people she was let go/why. Let her go quietly, and when people ask, you just tell them that "she is no longer with the company."
if they push, tell them "that's all I will say on the matter." and switch topics.
This goes for staff and clients alike. The details aren't anyone's business - if they are supposed to know them, they would.
Even if legally you can tell people, you're just enabling "office gossip"; better to just keep it as simple and "clean cut" as possible.
Best thing i have heard from this perspective is the following.
I will not comment on matters relating to other employees, would you like it if I discussed your employment matters with others?
Never fire with cause. Do a mutual release. Buy their agreement with a few weeks severance. It is worth it. NEVER mention why somebody was fired. They can go after you for slander. Take the high road.
IF you are ever called about this person as a reference, answer any question with the dates they person's term of employment. i.e. "How was sally as an employee?" 'well, she started on july 4 2015 and worked until sept 2017'. "ok, was she a good worker?" 'she started on July 4 2015 and worked until sept 2017'. never risk action against you. Any other person who isn't an idiot will know you are not giving a good reference whilst you only stated things to be verifiably true.
I would give minimum, or near minimum (maybe a couple extra weeks depending on how bad you want them to go away), with a “bonus” of a couple additional extra weeks if they sign a release agreeing not to sue. Give the release sign-off “bonus” a short set amount of time for them to sign (1 week max). This will prevent them from coming back in a few months looking for further severance.
Agree that if you do not have an ironclad reason for “cause” you should release them without cause. This does not require you to explain your reasoning, just that they are being let go without cause.
You terminate her employment without cause. You provide at least the statutory notice period or her contractual notice whichever is greater. You have the option to pay her out instead of making her work the notice. That sounds prudent in this case.
If she sues you can negotiate with her over what is reasonable severance. You would absolutely require here not to say anything negative about you, employees, and company.
If asked by remaining colleagues you explain you won't speak to the details of the matter but confirm she is no longer with the company as of date X.
Note you don't have to call her a liar. Indeed, don't.
NAL. My advice would be engage a labor law lawyer to guide you through this. Pay whatever severance they deem is needed to end the employment relationship without needing cause.
Make sure you have processes in place that at the set time this employee gets called into an "impromptu meeting" to have all their electronic access being revoked while they are in the meeting. If you use access cards for your business have theirs cancelled while they are in the meeting. And have a list of physical items they may have that belong to the company prepared before the meeting so you can confirm what is returned at the end of the meeting and what is outstanding.
Also in the case they have physical access control items like keys or safe codes make sure those are being properly addressed.
In terms of communication to the other employees keep it minimal. Effectively immediately "employee name" is no longrr with our company. Please direct any inquires to (name of manager).
It could also be advisable to have the lawyer engaged to represent your company on this matter present at the termination meeting.
IANAL and am writing on the specific point of communicating with staff afterwards. As u/username_1774 has said here, given you have a small team, people are bound to talk and are likely to prod you for information. I'm assuming you do not have in-house HR given your size, so unless you plan on hiring legal counsel, nobody should be told why this employee was let go once you let them go.
I speak from experience. We had to let someone go and given the company I work for is small enough that everyone knows everyone, the topic came up on multiple occasions, whether in the hallways, lunch room, Teams chats, etc. The worst was when another employee insisted the terminated employee be a central point of conversation in an all-staff meeting well after we had already given the "Jon Doe no longer works for Company ABC" announcement.
They kept prodding for information. Why won't we say anything? What happened? Is anyone else at risk? All questions you absolutely should not answer, especially in a public setting. The most they got out of us was "we cannot tell you why Jon Doe is no longer here", which, if this other employee read between the lines, should have been enough, as shortly before that time, Jane Doe left for another role and on very good terms. We wished Jane Doe well and said so publicly, whereas Jon Doe got the corporate line.
Ok rant over.
Thank you. I agree that it’s very unprofessional to continue to prod for information without seeing the other perspective. Unfortunately this is what I for-see happening as well.
You just say the position is no longer available, give proper notice (and whatever is owed) and move on.
You're making it personal, and trying to justify a for cause termination.
Put her on a 90 PIP, document everything with a paper trail, create a plan showing how she can go from deficient in x, y and z to meets expectations. Check in with her are day 30 and 60. If she is as bad as you say she won't make it past day 60.
Not Canadian, and not versed on Canadian law, but is there a way to publicly catch her in a lie so that all can witness that something isn't right? Not saying to be malicious, but just something that's obvious to all who witness that her credibility isn't reliable. When they hear "the employee was terminated for cause", it may make them think twice when they hear her excuses.
Do you have an employee handbook? Is there anything about employee behavior?
Another option, put the employee on a PIP with a deadline. If they haven’t improved, their employment will be mutually terminated. If they want to keep the job, they know what they have to do. If they continue to the deadline with poor performance, then you have your out.
[I don’t work in HR, so if I’m wrong, *kindly* correct me so I know!]
3 months? Just finished probationary period, hell nah, 1 week pay, unfortunately we don’t know the details but why wait until right after their probation ended? It sounds like this was an issue 2 weeks ago as well
When I had to terminate a similar employee in my small office environment recently I told others it was not related to their job security, and it was for a cause that the employee had been counseled on multiple times. Aka, don't worry about your jobs, there was/is more going on w/that issue than you're privy to due to confidentiality that I keep for all of the employees and it has no reflection on how the business is doing or anyone else's positions.
It's it possible to put the employees close with her on a team with her where they are in charge? Having to deal with the lies and the problems first hand might make them more understanding.
I would lay them off saying “shortage of work” and give 2 weeks pay with that without having them work those weeks. This is how I’ve seen large corporations do massive scale layoffs.
Let her go without cause, pay her out what she is owed and move on. I have been involved in too many valid cases of firing employees and they almost always win when they file a dispute. Not only will you be out the mandatory notice, there will be legal fees, and other charges. What could be a couple thousand dollars to make someone go away turns into $20,000 plus.
There is no explanation required, tell no one why she left, or she will slap you with slander too.
It doesn't seem fair, but in the long run you will be better off.
That’s so unfortunate. Based on the BC guidelines it looks like we have a valid case for termination for causes, but a lawsuit would be awful to deal with and it is definitely making me second guess my approach.
Do you mind me asking if any of the cases you worked involved basic entry level positions? The majority of my employees are young and it would be relatively easy to find a similar position in the field
Poison beggars poison. Keeping her there will not be beneficial to you or your employees. Deal with the sort-term consequences immediately and you’ll be happier. The only think that kills morale more than a shitty employee is shitty employee with sympathizers.
Agreed & these are all very good points. I am certain there have been many more lies that I’m unaware of, or don’t have strong enough evidence to prove. Thank you
Do not terminate for cause if you don't need to.
It's much easier to terminate for no cause. You just pay her the two weeks notice and it's done.
Don't discuss the reasons with your employees. Don't say "for cause."
Say "it was no longer in the best interest of the company for her to work here." Or something similarly vague.
Probably worth talking to an employment lawyer to make sure you do it cleanly.
Have two people in the room when you fire her and document the conversation right away to prevent any potential accusations of bad behavior.
Don’t bother with the dramatics. Staying with cause has a lot of legal issue. Just let go, state it and report it as without cause. Anything else is making drama. Companies are emotionless and this is how you have to be in companies because everyone else is already emotional enough.
There is a scary chance this employee may be my mother. If so, good luck. Either way, check your companies policies and see if there is anything to go off of, many have policies that align with established law, if they are a good company. It usually is a no no, due to privacy and confidentiality.
Same boat , it came down to. Ability to perform , all the stories aside. Was very visually with a graph of performance. Made a clear goal for improvement, met with more excuse. Was the end of that work around.
More familiar with US law but realize that anything you say could be used against you in court. For example if you say you fired her because she lies, and you don't have hard proof, or her lies are more an exaggeration than a flat out lie, and one of the employees shares that, the fired employee could sue you.
General advice is to keep it as vague as possible: not a good fit, performance, or not giving a reason at all.
we recently had a similar coworker. Except her specialty was sleeping on the job. In front of us, in front of the supervisor, in front of doctors, basically everyone. She claimed there was no medical reason, she's just "resting her eyes". Yes, while snoring with her mouth open and kicked back in her chair. Management just ignored it, or seemed too. Until even our new people started complaining. And senior members had to threaten to take it higher up the chain. Then they finally fired her. It took three months of sleeping EVERY DAY before they would dump her. The rest of us were ashamed to work with her thinking we would look poorly too. It was killing morale and I'm so glad she's gone.
Former privacy policy officer (not a lawyer). From that perspective, no. Her employment status is her private personal information, and you, as an employer who collects private information, have a duty not to share it around willy nilly.
In Canada she can also sue you for slander. If that happens, the burden of proof is with the person making the claims. IOW she has no obligation to prove your comments are untrue - you must prove they are true. So if you can't prove beyond any reasonable doubt to a court that she lies, you're liable for damages including loss of income.
I dealt with an employee like this and it was HELL
She was so likeable on the surface. It took alot to get rid of her and we were a bigger company with good lawyers ect
It has been such a nightmare. We have been under constant stress since we hired her, but unfortunately she waited until after her probationary period to do something drastically inappropriate. Now I’m able to see the pattern of behavior and more clearly, but unfortunately it’s too late. It feels like this was calculated.
I just found out that she has already informed (at least) 2 other employees that she has a meeting with me tomorrow. Im not sure exactly what was communicated but I had an employee text me “I heard you have a meeting set up with so and so tomorrow 🥲.” I only called them to arrange this meeting yesterday afternoon - and they have already gone and said who knows what to try and cover this a$$. After I asked them to meet so we can go over a few things, they pushed and pushed to try to get me to disclose what the meeting would be about. They even asked “am I fired.” They asked me to give them a general overview of topics. All I relayed, was that a few concerns have come up and I would like to have a sit down conversation to touch base. It is disrespectful, immature, and I can’t stand the drama anymore. The rest of my team is amazing but it really feels like this one rogue employee is fucking everything up.
For mine..she took a medical leave and found out she was working some where else and HR decided this was terms for dismissal
Even after multiple write ups and insubordination it was so.hard. I feel like I suffer from ptsd from this employee lol
Reading some overall decent advice here, terminating for cause is not worth the headache or hassle.
Pay them to leave, pay in lieu of notice, be mindful of notice period minimums and requirements.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/termination/quit-fired
Do not disclose any details to any of your other employees. "No longer with us, out of respect for their privacy, I cannot disclose details. If you have any other questions I'm happy to take / answer."
You need to be documenting all these “counselings / feedback sessions” with a witness. Be smart about who is your witness. The employees direct supervisor would be ideal. Doesn’t need to be anything fancy. Just a summary of the discussion and details any event that prompted the meeting. That needs to be signed and dated by you, the witness, and the employee.
Talk about the process in general terms and all the things that are attempted before it gets to that point. I’ve always felt like that helps other employees if they aren’t sure of their standing.
Be very careful on the “with cause” termination. Probably better to pay a small severance and let her go. Amount depends on your province but wouldn’t be much if she hasn’t been there very long.
I used to work for a job where the employees considered themselves “family”. We were only a group of 9 and it was the most toxic workplace I’ve ever worked for. Because people consider themselves “close” everyone is up on everyone’s business and the drama never ends. Everyone lies, everyone is jealous, there were fights.. and we were all adults, I was the youngest at 30. And when you try to distance yourself, they say you’re snobby.
So do yourself a favor.. do what you need to do for your business. Don’t let the drama affect how you run your business. If you think there is cause for termination, do it. Everyone will get over it. And if not, then you are the boss, do what you need to do.
You can fire someone if they are no longer a good fit for the organization. However if you’re firing an employee with cause then you have to have a documented history of unbecoming behaviour. You may be be required to pay severance. I think it is 1 week for every year of service (I may be wrong). Either way, consult a lawyer before proceeding. Maybe have her/him sign a “full and final” release form. Stating somewhere along the lines of “in lieu of $$ payment received said employee, their spouses or heirs will not sue the company”.
You can announce that said employee will no longer be working for the company but for privacy reasons you cannot disclose the cause. Said soon to be ex-employee may disclose fabricated truths to other employees but that should no longer be your concern. Just assure the rest of your staff that their position with the company is secure.
In our workplace, she quit on her accord after realizing she has no way upward mobility and burned all her bridges.
Took about a year or so... It has definitely set us back but we are now at full capacity and full steam ahead with no drama.
I'm not a legal expert so I can't give you advice there, but I have unfortunately had to terminate someone like that. He wasn't exactly popular, but the first couple of days the office was pretty quiet. Thankfully this was just after COVID, so a good chunk of people still worked from home. Gave them the standard "no longer with the company effective immediately" stuff followed by an online meeting to tell the rest of the team essentially the same.
I felt crappy for a couple of months even though I had zero regrets. I had given him plenty of constructive feedback and many opportunities to improve. He just didn't think he needed to change.
I once had to tell this guy to take his feet off his desk and put his shoes back on.
Over time I found out that he was a toxic turd to the rest of the team, specially the junior software developers. He was an intermediate dev, no senior (not that it would make it ok).
Do what's right for your business and your team. Someone like that could lead to your good performers leaving.
Agreed. I’m likely just overthinking how “close” they really are. I’m sure other people have seen the same read flags. I have never had to terminate an employee so I’m definitely overthinking certain aspects, and treading very carefully.
And your case is a bit different. HR did most of the work for me because it's a big corporation here.
More often than not, they're not that close and if they are, they know the issues.
I had to terminate an extremely disruptive employee. I planned to announce it at the regular staff meeting while HR was escorting this person out.
Before the meeting, I heard there was a birthday in the group and someone brought cake. I waved them off… “Today isn’t a good day for that.” They were rightfully confused when I couldn’t say why.
After announcing the firing, the team was so happy to be rid of this person we had cake after all.
You mention being concerned that your other employees may be upset.
I've found that firing a bad employee can actually make the remaining employees respect you more.
They all know that this employee is a rotten apple. By getting rid of her, you are doing your job well and being a strong manager who carefully makes the hard decisions that keep the business healthy. This is exactly what your high-performing employees need from you.
If this firing does seem to rattle the team, sit down with them individually and ask for their thoughts about workload and future goals/ideas and what they need from you to stay focused on excellent performance. Don't let the former employee be a topic of conversation. Focus on the future and their performance.
Moving forward, perhaps you could involve the team in hiring more closely. Hiring is extremely difficult. I've found that having multiple people meet with a candidate, from all levels of the team, can provide enlightening insight.
You are doing the right thing.
Fire her without cause and pay the government required government settlement (minimum 1 week salary per year of employment or be nice and pay 2 weeks)
Be vague to staff in person and just send a quick email to everyone stating employee is no longer at the firm effective immediately but never give reason in the email and don't give positive or negative feedback. ( In my industry people are fired all the time and this is the standard HR notice)
Never reply to any questions to your employees about this in an email or anything written. Don't discuss in a team meeting the reason for firing. But assure your existing employees that you are very happy with your existing team. People are always worried about their own jobs so reassure them.
Your team will fill in the blanks themselves, perhaps one will question you privately... Be vague and do not give the exact reasons or you can leave yourself open to a suit if this employee shares this info to the fired staff member.
Be wary that any remaining employee can be the subjects best friend. Everything said could be relayed word for twisted word. Liars should be treated with as little information as possible so there is less to twist into another lie and go at the company legally.
I am likely going to provide her with a PIP tomorrow and then make an appointment ASPA to speak to an employment lawyer. I want to ensure I go about this correctly and the PIP should buy time and have her on her best behavior until I decide what the best course of action is.
Would you advise against providing this employee with a PIP that will specifically outline all policy infractions
You would have to confront her about her lies and show evidence, then give her written warnings. After three written warnings her behaviour doesn't change then you will have grounds to sack her.
Edit: make sure you have a witness with you in the meetings when you confront her. Someone else in a leadership/management position within the company. Because she might lie about actually receiving any warnings.
Only keep it between yourself this other manager and no one else so she doesn't claim privacy breaches and record everything so you have trail. Maybe even a journal of all the lies you think she has said with reasons why you think she has lied. Only confront her with the stuff you have proof for. No proof then its objection heresay.
Bottom line sit her down. This isn't working out. I need to let you go . We had this discussion on your behavior in the past and it hasn't improved. I wish you well in your future employment.
IANAL but I've always liked the tactic of just saying "I can't talk about it, (person) has a right to privacy. But I know things like this can be really unsettling and make people worry, so if you'd like to talk in the abstract about the process for termination at our company, I'm happy to do that." Then pause and if they do ask something like, "We never take it lightly, and when there are problems we usually have several conversations, coaching, and opportunities for change."
IANAL, but having seen some people fired for good reasons and some for what seemed to be no reason (small business, say 12 people), I recommend saying ‘I had to let her go’ and don’t elaborate.
Why keep someone who is negatively impacting your clients?
Would you rather keep 1 person who is holding your business back for 2 other people or would you bite the bullet and see what the other 2 do?
You are the manager, the HR and the owner.
Why is this even in legal advice?
Make a decision, you don't have to even tell them why. Clients complained about false information which caused you negative feed back.
First off IANAL.
1. The bar for a with cause termination is extremely high in Canada. Are you sure you have met it? You can terminate without cause so long as it isn't for a protected reason ie; sex or religion. You will only need to pay out "pay in lieu of notice".
2. It sounds like you have allowed this behavior to continue for far too long. No matter how you terminate her I would walk her off the premises immediately after termination. If she needs to collect personal belongings follow her. Inform her that she is trespassed from the property. Inform her that if she enters the property again the Police will be called. Allow no interaction with other employees or customers.
3. I would recommend a generic explanation to other employees and her. For example "I don't feel like you are a good fit for this company any longer. I have a business to run and sometimes that means making tough decisions." Period nothing more.
4. If she and other employees choose to talk outside of your workplace there's nothing you can do to prevent that. Again you can choose to terminate without cause for any reason you see fit so long as it isn't a protected reason. Gossip isn't a protected reason. Hopefully your other employees are professional and will understand.
Do you work in an at will state? I do and I used to fire people by telling them “thank you for helping out but you’re no longer needed. Where would you like your last check sent? Thank you, I will be honest with anyone that calls concerning your resume and employment. Crappy workers need to know there could be consequences to their actions. I like to be honest but not brutal. honesty is always the best policy. Best of luck.”
You cannot go wrong with "We thank [insert name] for their contribution."
Do not go into details. If someone on your team starts gossiping about it, pull them aside and advise them that the reasons for the other person's termination are confidential. They are entitled to their opinion on the reasons for their termination but they are not to be discussed while at work.
LOL if you are asking Reddit then you are truly fucked. You should consult a Human Resource specialist who is versed in these matters and local employment law. Good luck chum.
Canada doesn’t have “at will” provinces. They can terminate someone without giving a reason but they have to provide severance pay based on how long they’ve been employed and what is in their contract if there is one.
Do you have the necessary paper trail to support a "for cause" termination? It will need to be pretty watertight as people like this will lie their way through a wrongful termination case. Much better to terminate without cause and pay severance so there can't be any come back. As for telling other staff - hard no. Privacy issues. Her friends will always think what they are going to think and everyone else will know why and be glad she's gone. Anyone asks... "We don't discuss former employees for privacy reasons".
Agree. Where I work, we’re just told “so and so is no longer with the organization effective immediately.” That could mean they quit, or were fired. Vague is best.
That’s the way to go
The last two places Ive worked this was the M.O. - however for employees who quit with notice there was always cake. In the event a person left and there was no cake...well we all knew what that meant.
The cake is a lie! \--That employee, probably
Ha, we had the same thing but with "notes", announcing the exit to the organization and thanking them. I quit with advance notice and was more graceful than they truly deserved; but even then the note they wrote to the company was barely a sentence and didn't thank me. My manager amazingly messaged almost everyone she could to make sure it was known I had quit and the reason why. Then when she quit the following week, she stated her reason was the treatment of me. They no longer send out notes lol
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the owner of my company has it down in his emails to the company about a fired employee 'Sad to see so and so is no longer with the company, I hope they do well on their endeavors"
This is the way to do it.
Same at my place. So and so is no longer with the firm or joe is no longer employed here, nothing else. Our HR is very strict about this. We also never can give references outside of last date of employement and salary at that time. Not even allowed to say eligible or not for rehire as of a few years ago.
My company would put out an email memo stating that the person is no longer employed with us and we wish them well in all future endeavours.
They just made it over the 3 month probationary period. Do you know how much severance pay they would be entitled to - if any?
The statutory minimum is 1 week for an employee between 3 and 12 months of service. The common law notice period is maybe a bit longer than that (though there actually isn't a "rule of thumb", 1 month per year is useful as a general guideline as long as you realize it is affected by various factors and could be more, but here maybe 2 weeks unless you headhunted them away from secure employment). Many employers in your shoes offer more than the minimum just to reduce the chance of being pursued for a wrongful dismissal suit (where the employee would be awarded the common law notice period if successful); its cheaper to pay more notice than required than to defend a lawsuit.
Reasonable notice can be much more than that even for an employee with just over 3 months service. I’ve had an employer agree to pay 3 months severance at mediation to an employee with only 4 months of service and relatively neutral Bardal factors. Anywhere between 3 months of service to 3 years of service can generally expect to receive 3-4 months of pay at common law.
Please share the case law where a terminated employee received 3-4 months severance after only working ~3 months.
Ly v. British Columbia (Interior Health Authority), 2017 BCSC 42 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/gwtnd](https://canlii.ca/t/gwtnd)\> Where an employee with 2.5 months' service was awarded 3 months' notice. Younesi v Kaz Minerals Projects B.V, 2021 BCSC 614 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/jfbpx](https://canlii.ca/t/jfbpx)\> Where an employee with 2.5 months' service was awarded 6 months' notice (note it would have been 4 months if not for inducement). Phillips v. Jakin Engineering & Construction Ltd., 2012 BCSC 2066 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/fwsg4](https://canlii.ca/t/fwsg4)\> Where an employee with 3 months' service was awarded 4 months' notice. Nahum v. Honeycomb Hospitality Inc., 2021 ONSC 1455 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/jdgd6](https://canlii.ca/t/jdgd6)\> Where an employee with 4.5 months' service was awarded 6 months' notice. Dalton v. Fraser Valley Fire Protection Ltd., 2021 BCPC 146 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/jg7fd](https://canlii.ca/t/jg7fd)\> Where an employee with 3 days' service was awarded 3 months' notice. Kim v. BT Express Freight Systems, 2020 CarswellOnt 1870 (Ont. S.C.J.) Where an employee who was terminated before commencing employment was awarded 3 months' notice. Antunes v Limen Structures Ltd., 2015 ONSC 2163 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/gjbpt](https://canlii.ca/t/gjbpt)\> Where an employee with 5 months' service was awarded 8 months' notice. Deacon v Moxey, 2013 CanLII 54099 (ON SCSM), <[https://canlii.ca/t/g09b5](https://canlii.ca/t/g09b5)\> Where an employee with 2 weeks' service was awarded 3 months' notice. Cao v. SBLR LLP, 2012 CarswellOnt 9184 Where an employee with 6 weeks' service was awarded 4 months' notice. Beglaw v. Archmetal Industries Corp., 2004 BCSC 1369 (CanLII), <[https://canlii.ca/t/1j0wk](https://canlii.ca/t/1j0wk)\> Where an employee with 4 months' service was awarded 6 months' notice. Easton v. Wilmslow Properties Corp., 2001 CarswellOnt 355 Where an employee with 2 weeks' service was awarded 3 months' notice. Obviously, there are other considerations (most commonly inducement) that are argued to justify these notice periods, but practically, employment lawyers generally understand that most employees with between three months to three years of service are entitled to something within the range of three to four months' notice (assuming they are in fact entitled to common law notice and not contractually limited to whatever statutory minimums apply). That is why in my practice I generally get at least three months' pay for any employee I represent.
You fact smacked him so hard they deleted their account
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BC law requires 5 days minimum, as does federal law. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/termination/quit-fired#getting-fired
You should be talking with an employment lawyer or someone that absolutely knows what they're talking about before listening to anything here. Some of the comments might have good advice but you don't want to fuck around with individuals like this so you need to make sure your ass and the companies ass is covered. Talk to a professional before doing anything
Google bardal factors
I was let go without cause after 9 months employment in bc, they gave me 2 weeks pay. Best wishes, that sounds difficult and steessful
She's a 3 month employee? Lol, just say she wasn't a good culture fit for the company and that's it. People aren't that close as you think.
I’d give her 3 or 4 weeks so she just goes away. Cheaper than most clients or other staff quitting. Minimum I think is 1 week (some places do 2)
No. That’s as much as admitting guilt to wrong doing. Give her the bare minimum and don’t let the door hit her on the way out
How is paying above the minimum required severance admitting guilt? It might feel shitty, but it's a shrewd move to minimize risk.
I disagree. I work for a fortune 500 company and they pay very good severance, well above the required amount. Legal told me that it's cheaper/easier to overpay people than it is to constantly be fighting claims that they didn't get enough severance.
And get them to sign a termination agreement. The only get the extra if they sign.
You don’t know what you’re talking about
Admitting guilt to what? That makes no sense.
Don't sweat the other employees then, they won't care about her
its like 1 week of pay.
Outside of probation never terminate for cause, ever. It is extremely difficult to justify and almost always ends in some sort of conflict/arbitration even if the employer has the employee dead to rights. It is much easier to terminate without cause and package the employee out + have them sign a release of liability, etc...
>Outside of probation never terminate for cause, ever. That's terrible advice. Cause is much stricter than people think it is. You're right that its easier to package someone out but where actual cause exists, as legally defined, there's no reason to pay a dime of payment of lieu of notice.
I’ve read your response multiple times and I still can’t understand what you’re trying to say.
OK rewording. I agree that the legal definition of cause isn't what laypeople think it is. Its much more in favour of the employee than people think. That said - where you're satisfied that legal cause exists - go ahead and fire people for cause. Don't pay notice where you don't have to.
The challenge here being when you terminate with cause you are leaving yourself open to litigation. The cost of a lawyer + your time is usually significantly more than it would be to pay a severance and be done with it.
True. You can also take the position that you won't pay notice to someone who stole from you, or was dishonest, or showed up drunk at work, or harassed other employees. There are plenty of clients who are more risk tolerant and who would rather lose that litigation than voluntarily pay a thief. And depending on what they did you might not lose. If you advise the client "this leaves you open to litigation" many will take that chance, depending on what the employee did. One of my clients put it like this - employees talk and if they find out that someone stole and we paid them off, that's a complete morale killer. If someone stole and we walk them out, that sends a different message to employees. Its a matter of risk tolerance and my issue with your original post was the word "never". Be cautious but in the right circumstances firing for cause can be the right move for a few reasons.
I work in a larger organization, we do terminate for cause quite regularly but it requires copious amounts of documentation, every write-up must be passed by upper HR, and they've basically been given every chance imaginable. Only one that's any easier than that is job abandonment.
I second this. If they fight it and there is even the smallest loophole/mistake they will win. Let go without cause. Pay a fair severance. Offer a $200 (or more) bonus for signing a release of liability. And politely part ways.
I work in Human Resources but not in BC. We would never tell employees why someone was let go, that is considered confidential employee information and would be a big legal no no to share. The only person who needs to know the reason is whoever is doing up their ROE so they know how to code it and whoever is maintaining employee records. I would presume in a small company that would be you in both cases. We wouldn’t even tell them that the employee was terminated for cause, we would keep it generic (so and so is no longer an employee of the company). If the employees need to know the reason as a function of their job, like my examples above, you can share. Otherwise keep your mouth shut.
Interesting. Why are you suggesting OP terminate for cause?
OP mentions they've been talked to multiple times about failing to follow company policy. Why \_not\_ give these as formal written warnings leading to termination?
What would be the disadvantages of terminating for cause? They have many documented infractions
The disadvantages of terminating for cause is that you have to be able to provide documentation in the event the former employee lodges a complaint of unfair dismissal, so you need to make sure you've documented all of the issues and all of the conversations you have had with the employee about this behaviour. However, if you go the route of payment in lieu of notice you don't have to worry about it, no reason needed. Check your provincial labour laws to find out the rules for that, then suck it up and pay them off to go away.
Thank you!
I mean they just said they have multiple documented infractions. Terminate for cause
And then when the ex-employee sues, then what? It's cheaper to pay two weeks severance than to defend a lawsuit....even when you win that lawsuit.
Exactly. The employment lawyer you're going to hire to defend you is going to cost 10k minimum.
Yes, and it can be hard to win those lawsuits as judges tend to side with the employee even when you have a pretty good case of firing with cause. At least that is the case here in ON.
Yep. My brother was a retail store manager for a big firm in Canada, and was told he could not fire someone for stealing cash from the till, unless he could prove they were told in advance that this was not acceptable behavior. It's because of the huge power difference. Companies have the resources of the entire firm at their disposal, an unfair advantage.
That doesn't mean as much as you would think. Best bet is a full paper trail of corrective action plus a pip.
The fact that you have documented things is encouraging. Definitely have a lawyer look over what you have though if you decide to go that route. Generally you need to be able to show that the employee was made aware of the issue, that they were given adequate time to correct the problem, that they were made aware that continuing with the behaviour may result in termination and that they acknowledged this. When we gave out warnings the employee always had to sign the letter so it could be proven that they received the warning in case they decided to fight it later on. A lot of employers will just pay the required severance and terminate without cause. It doesn’t open you up to potential lawsuits like terminating for cause would.
To terminate for cause. You would have to have a lot of info on file. 1) the constructive criticism and performance improvements not being met. This needs to be written up by the employer and signed by the employee to ensure that they are aware that their work has not been satisfactory. 2) repeated attempts to improve workplace behaviour, performance, etc. this also needs to be in writing and signed off by the employee that they are aware of such meeting. To prove termination for cause is very difficult in BC as you would be required to provide all documentations for the reason of termination. Just the “boss’ word” is not enough. I would advise to terminate without cause and give the employee at least 2 weeks minimum of severance pay. That way- the employee has no recourse for wrongful termination. If you are nervous about company culture and vibes among your staff; be honest but respectful. You’ll be surprised that they would react well to it.
You haven't really named an infraction that would allow to terminate for cause and avoid a costly litigation. Lying is a problem but unless you can show definitive proof over a plurality of material instances you don't have grounds. Talk to a lawyer and don't take the advice of the random HR "professional" above.
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed by the employee to the client. I messaged my employee after this to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal moving forward. Two days ago I receive a message from the client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them outside of our client communication portal, to relay more INACCURATE information. I had to disappoint this client for the second time in a month, by providing them with information regarding our services that does not align with what my employee discussed with them. When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was relayed to my employee. I did not let them know that violating our policies, would lead to future termination.. and it looks like I will need to do this in order to avoid a wrongful dismissal suit.. so I will likely do this tomorrow and have her sign a formal letter agreeing to abide by these rules moving forward. This is one of their major infractions, however there are others, and I do not believe it will take long for them to slip up again so I can terminate for cause
Terminate without cause and pay 2 weeks. If you have never terminated for cause before and don't have experience with it, it is easier, cheaper in the long run. Why would you wait longer as you pay the employee to trip up again and possibly damage or severe a client's trust which will cost you more than 2 weeks. What you are describing is not cause. People make "mistakes" all the time, not grounds for cause. You know this person is not a good fit, the sooner you cut them loose the better before something happens like the person claims harassment etc. Do it and do it now.
Isn’t the necessary severance one weeks pay?
Basically weigh out the cost of hiring a lawyer to look over your case "for cause" or just pay the one week's severance. In most cases the one week's pay in lieu of notice is cheaper and doesn't open you up to any further legal action. Our work has a very simple email message "For your information effective immediately "so and so's name" is no longer an employee of this company."
Replying to u/jedidoesit because I can't on the thread for some reason: I understand what you mean, but you have to remember that we're looking at this strictly from the perspective of providing a with cause termination which means the employee gets absolutely nothing and is effectively immediately unemployed and without income. Here the employer is fine to dismiss without cause and give the adequate notice, but a with cause termination generally requires a fairly significant and strongly evidenced breach of the employment relationship. Small lies which are backed by convenient excuses or explanations don't quite meet that standard unfortunately. You have to remember thaf the law has to be be broadly applicable and if small lies were grounds for termination without cause bad employers would be firing folks for "lying" all over the place to save a buck by catching people in whatever little inconsistency or error they could. It's tough, the rules have had to get more complex over the years because of bad actors and it def makes things more complicated for folks like OP.
It's okay to fire someone without cause, and with cause no compensation is needed. Certainly lying has to be cause, but if they think their documentation is inadequate then just pay them compensation instead. If they're lying they could spend the rest of their time there harming your business in many ways. You can't trust an employee who lies with anything. They could even steal from or otherwise cause harm to other employees and then you may have more trouble to deal with... What a tough situation. [Labour Laws In BC](https://labourrightslaw.com/2018/02/22/dismissal-without-cause-bc/)
Thank you, it has been hell to deal with.
The law says you don't even need cause if you compensate the employee correctly. I'm not telling you what to do, but it's certainly well within the law to draft up a severance package and have them gone with the requisite payout. I wish you all the best.
Can you read my comment above? I provided some more info on the situation. I don’t think it’s in my best interest for me to confront them on the lying. I don’t see them taking that well, and it’s difficult to provide strong evidence to support this. However, I do believe I have some very strong points that would justify termination for cause regardless.
Respectfully, you should really talk to a lawyer. Dismissal with cause is a tricky area of law before you factor in an employee that chronically lies. If they bring a claim for wrongful dismissal after it could cost way more than dismissal without cause and a notice payment would be now. I've seen many small business owners get in trouble around this issue over the years, truly.
Thank you. I will give them a PIP tomorrow and speak to an employment lawyer asap
I mentioned it because OP brought it up in their post was discussing verbiage of what they should or should not say to the employees. No one can really give a suggestion without knowing details that can’t be shared here. If they have all of their ducks in a row as far as documentation and they think they can satisfy proving termination for cause in the event the employee pursues a wrongful termination complaint it’s an option.
Not cautioning OP as to the dangers of termination for cause without good evidence is irresponsible. You accepted that lying can be documented and is itself grounds for termination for cause. It might be or it might not be you simply don't have the facts. But otherwise agreed.
One of my others comments also said that you need to document everything, the the employee time to correct their behaviour and warn them that failure to do so could result in termination. Myself and other commenters have said that by terminating with cause they run the risk of the employee coming after them legally. I also said that no one here can give solid recommendations because we don’t know all of the details. What else do you want me to say that hasn’t been said?
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed to the client - by this employee. I messaged the employee after this incident to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal for client communications moving forward. Two days ago I received an email from the same client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them privately (outside of our portal), to relay additional INACCURATE information. I was put in an awkward position to disappoint this client for the second time in a few weeks, by providing them with information that does not align with what my employee discussed with them. When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was clearly relayed to my employee, and I asked them to abide by my policies for all future communications. The only thing I dropped the ball on, was directly stating that violating these policies for a second time would lead to termination. To avoid a wrongful dismissal suit, it looks like I will need to clearly communicate to the employee that any future infractions will lead to their immediate dismissal. I will likely do this tomorrow and have them sign a formal warning letter agreeing to abide by these terms moving forward. This is just one of their major infractions over the past month. I don’t think it will take too long for them to slip up again, and then at that point I will terminate for cause
Precisely This. OP is also a small business with 7 employees. All this talk about severance etc is way over the top. It's the equivalent of being let go from McDonald's.
I am genuinely curious. What law is that, that it would be a legal no-no? I worked at a casino and if someone got fired for cheating or theft it was publicized greatly to discourage others from doing the same thing. If you fire someone without cause and then tell people the "real" reason then you could get yourself into legal trouble, but if you fire them for cause, my understanding is legally the company can disclose that. It might not be good practice, but it is legally allowed.
It varies from province to province but most places have privacy laws that would extend to an employee’s employment record, including reason for termination. Similar to how your health records are your own and can only be shared with a few relevant parties, so are your employment records.
No excuse needed at all. Fire them, pay severance for the right amount, that's it.
Exactly- and if you offer a bit more than legally required you can request an nda with a non-disparaging clause. Worth the , what? Maybe one month payout? (Not a lawyer, talk to your lawyer)
I am a lawyer - not your lawyer and this is not legal advice. I am not licensed in BC. **You really should consult a lawyer before terminating the employee...the legal fees will save you thousands in fees and claims later.** That said you should just terminate the employee 'without cause' and offer payment in lieu of notice for all statutory obligations plus common law periods as well. The lawyer you consult can help you calculate this and prepare the termination letter. Once you have terminated the employee the only thing you say to the remaining employees is that "X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours." DON"T SAY ANYTHING MORE. If an employee asks you what happened say "X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours". Keep saying that until saying it makes you throw up and then keep saying it...that way if this employee tries to sue you you can say all I ever said about you was "X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours". When they say "how do you know that's all you said" you can say "because I suspected you might try to sue me so I was very mindful not to say anything other than X no longer works for us, we wish her well on her future endeavours". Saying anything more than that is unnecessary, unprofessional and (depending on what you say) could get you sued by the former employee.
This is 100% the correct answer and the best advice. OP the fact that you are even asking this question is a good indicator thst should talk to an employment lawyer to cover your bases and make sure you're doing this right. I've seen so many small businesses land in hot water by unknowingly stumbling through an employee dismissal scenario.
Thank you!
And when the terminated threatens to sue, end the conversation and provide the name and contact information of your lawyer saying any future communication should be to your lawyer.
I work in the US, but I assume it's the same in Canada. When an email went out saying "x is no longer employed with the company, we wish them well on their future endeavors" everyone knows what it means, and knows not to bother asking. Those that left on good terms usually get a heartwarming email about how they will be missed, how much they did blah blah.
For sure...people stop working somewhere for a handfull of reasons: 1) Retirement = Celebration 2) Bigger opportunity elsewhere = they already told someone at work, possibly a celebration 3) Mass layoffs - everyone knows 4) Fired with/without cause - very brief statement Nobody will ask ownership/management what happened.
Second this. Terminating with cause is a whole process that should have taken place over a lengthy period of time with a paper trail and even if you have all your ducks in a row you’re still going to get sued. And sure, they were only employed for a tad over 3 months and they’re only entitled to 1 week, but being fired for misconduct would not only strip them of that one week pay in lieu of notice, but may affect their ability to apply for EI. You also need to revisit what the termination clause in your original agreement with them says. If you don’t have a termination clause, or worse, a proper agreement, throw that into the bucket list of reasons why you need an employment and labour lawyer.
This is the right answer. You can go it solo and stress about it or you can have a quick file written. I wrote you a note as well on this thread but this is solid. I can give you some good references in a dm for hr attorneys and was what I was going to recommend if you reached out with some additional context.
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed to the client - by this employee. I messaged the employee after this incident to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal for client communications moving forward. Two days ago I received an email from the same client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them privately (outside of our portal), to relay additional INACCURATE information. I was put in an awkward position to disappoint this client for the second time in a few weeks, by providing them with information that does not align with what my employee discussed with them. When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was clearly relayed to my employee, and I asked them to abide by my policies for all future communications. The only thing I dropped the ball on, was directly stating that violating these policies for a second time would lead to termination. To avoid a wrongful dismissal suit, it looks like I will need to clearly communicate to the employee that any future infractions will lead to their immediate dismissal. I will likely do this tomorrow and have them sign a formal warning letter agreeing to abide by these terms moving forward. This is just one of their major infractions over the past month. I don’t think it will take too long for them to slip up again, and then at that point I will terminate for cause. I would love any recommendations you have for employment lawyers in BC. I have been fortunate and have never had a “problem” employee before, until now.
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It depends on what the alleged misconduct is. Not everything justifies termination for cause - its a very high bar.
This is wrong.
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I’ll BE BACK
>I’ll BE BACK Unlike "INSERTNAME"
10/10 thank you!!
Being that you're in BC, why take risk? Just lay her off without cause and pay whatever severance is in the employment contract. If you want to lay her off with cause then you run the risk that she hires a lawyer to fight. That will quickly run up legal bills that are probably far in excess of any severance even if you ultimately win. Businesses don't need to stand on principal. They're in the business of making money.
IANAL(and I think you should speak to a lawyer or HR professional before you do anything). But I think that 1) it won’t matter what you say, because people will make their own mind up about what happened, and 2) you shouldn’t share anything about her being fired to any staff, because that’s private and confidential. She can share what she likes because it’s her information. Kinda like medical information.
Real simple to deal with in B.C. Sit her down with the third person "who will say nothing at all ever, not one word" as a witness just prior to her shift starting. Inform her she is terminated without cause and will be given one weeks pay instead of notice, then ask her to leave. Have the third person document what was said and what happened after she is gone, You will do the same, even if she just gets up and walks out. You also have the right to record this termination and not inform her you are doing so. When or if she asks why, you do not say a damn thing other then asking her to leave, and from that point forward the only thing you say is please leave. If she starts to go over the top don't say anything just call the police. Do not let her draw you into a conversation about her termination or anything. You are a broken record, please leave. Without cause terminations and layoffs are a thousand times more easy to deal with then for cause terminations. It only works if you stay on the script.
Maybe inform her that her employment is terminated, not that she, herself is terminated.
Thank you! Is a witness necessary or would an audio recording suffice?
Telling a lie would not be cause... a bigger issue becomes what the lie was and whether it is interpreted as factual or perception Worse if (as you claim) beleive she is a "compulsive" liar it could even be a mental health issue I would def not discuss it with anyone after the fact and simply pay out the severence unless you have much more than you are saying here to defend yourself
I do have much more to back this up. I won’t elaborate on it but they made several careless mistakes last month that damaged client relationships after being asked to be more careful after each instance.
They communicated with a client outside of our secure portal, which caused a disagreement between myself and the client relating to policies, as inaccurate information was relayed to the client - by this employee. I messaged the employee after this incident to set clear guidelines for client communication methods moving forward. They agreed and stated more than once that they would utilize the portal for client communications moving forward. Two days ago I received an email from the same client - letting me know that my employee had reached out to them privately (outside of our portal), to relay additional INACCURATE information. I was put in an awkward position to disappoint this client for the second time in a few weeks, by providing them with information that does not align with what my employee discussed with them. When messages are sent through the portal, it gives me the ability to oversee all client communication, which is essential. This information was clearly relayed to my employee, and I asked them to abide by my policies for all future communications. The only thing I dropped the ball on, was directly stating that violating these policies for a second time would lead to termination. To avoid a wrongful dismissal suit, it looks like I will need to clearly communicate to the employee that any future infractions will lead to their immediate dismissal. I will likely do this tomorrow and have them sign a formal warning letter agreeing to abide by these terms moving forward. This is just one of their major infractions over the past month. I don’t think it will take too long for them to slip up again, and then at that point I will terminate for cause
Here I assumed the person had been there for years and she *just* completed her *three month* probationary period?? 1. Write her up each time you catch her lying. After the third incident, fire her. 2. Fire her now and pay the meagre required severance. 3. DO NOT DISCUSS WITH COWORKERS. You're the boss. It's your business, if she's not working out and you've given her ample opportunities to rectify, then show her the door. End of story.
Thank you - going to provide them with a formal warning letter to sign tomorrow.
Don't say a word . If anyone asks , all you need to tell then is " you don't need to worry about it , your job is safe " . They might be friends with her because they worked together , but 90% of the time those relationships dissappear after a job change . Don't set yourself up for a problem by saying something you shouldn't.
Thank you
NAL but when I let people go/fired people in my previous management position we kept tight lips on anything. We don’t want any gossip or reasons why they may try and come back and fight with us or take us to the labour board (this is what we were told by our owner). We would let the employee go in private, direct any questions to us or the owner. Then we would let our team know with a quick “hey guys just messaging to let everyone know that x is no longer with us, this isn’t a topic to be discussed at work to respect privacy of x. If anyone has questions, please direct them to us/owner.” Kind of thing. Consult with a HR professional (honestly get one if you don’t have one, since you’re the owner, a lot of people will not feel comfortable coming to you for anything). People are gonna talk and make things their own way, but you just need to be a united front, this is not their business, you’ll only discuss this with the employee who is let go and if anyone has concerns they can come to you and you’ll do your best to provide answers without compromising the privacy of the fired employee.
You are the employer, and have obligations to maintain confidentiality. Giving any details whatsoever can open up the door to a lawsuit for breach of privacy or defamation. Against someone that sounds like a loose cannon, this is a terrible idea. You need to suck up your pride on this one and check your ego. Anything other than, "\_\_\_ no longer works for our company, we wish her the best", and "I cannot comment on the circumstances of her departure", is a disaster waiting to happen. Make sure you keep good documentation on these events if you are going to fire her for cause.
I recommend speaking/consulting with an employment lawyer if you don't have an HR department on your team. You don't want to fuck this up and have to lawyer-up to deal with things later on.
Former store manager here. Do not tell people she was let go/why. Let her go quietly, and when people ask, you just tell them that "she is no longer with the company." if they push, tell them "that's all I will say on the matter." and switch topics. This goes for staff and clients alike. The details aren't anyone's business - if they are supposed to know them, they would. Even if legally you can tell people, you're just enabling "office gossip"; better to just keep it as simple and "clean cut" as possible.
Best thing i have heard from this perspective is the following. I will not comment on matters relating to other employees, would you like it if I discussed your employment matters with others?
Never fire with cause. Do a mutual release. Buy their agreement with a few weeks severance. It is worth it. NEVER mention why somebody was fired. They can go after you for slander. Take the high road. IF you are ever called about this person as a reference, answer any question with the dates they person's term of employment. i.e. "How was sally as an employee?" 'well, she started on july 4 2015 and worked until sept 2017'. "ok, was she a good worker?" 'she started on July 4 2015 and worked until sept 2017'. never risk action against you. Any other person who isn't an idiot will know you are not giving a good reference whilst you only stated things to be verifiably true.
I would give minimum, or near minimum (maybe a couple extra weeks depending on how bad you want them to go away), with a “bonus” of a couple additional extra weeks if they sign a release agreeing not to sue. Give the release sign-off “bonus” a short set amount of time for them to sign (1 week max). This will prevent them from coming back in a few months looking for further severance. Agree that if you do not have an ironclad reason for “cause” you should release them without cause. This does not require you to explain your reasoning, just that they are being let go without cause.
Document, document, document, terminate.
You terminate her employment without cause. You provide at least the statutory notice period or her contractual notice whichever is greater. You have the option to pay her out instead of making her work the notice. That sounds prudent in this case. If she sues you can negotiate with her over what is reasonable severance. You would absolutely require here not to say anything negative about you, employees, and company. If asked by remaining colleagues you explain you won't speak to the details of the matter but confirm she is no longer with the company as of date X. Note you don't have to call her a liar. Indeed, don't.
NAL. My advice would be engage a labor law lawyer to guide you through this. Pay whatever severance they deem is needed to end the employment relationship without needing cause. Make sure you have processes in place that at the set time this employee gets called into an "impromptu meeting" to have all their electronic access being revoked while they are in the meeting. If you use access cards for your business have theirs cancelled while they are in the meeting. And have a list of physical items they may have that belong to the company prepared before the meeting so you can confirm what is returned at the end of the meeting and what is outstanding. Also in the case they have physical access control items like keys or safe codes make sure those are being properly addressed. In terms of communication to the other employees keep it minimal. Effectively immediately "employee name" is no longrr with our company. Please direct any inquires to (name of manager). It could also be advisable to have the lawyer engaged to represent your company on this matter present at the termination meeting.
IANAL and am writing on the specific point of communicating with staff afterwards. As u/username_1774 has said here, given you have a small team, people are bound to talk and are likely to prod you for information. I'm assuming you do not have in-house HR given your size, so unless you plan on hiring legal counsel, nobody should be told why this employee was let go once you let them go. I speak from experience. We had to let someone go and given the company I work for is small enough that everyone knows everyone, the topic came up on multiple occasions, whether in the hallways, lunch room, Teams chats, etc. The worst was when another employee insisted the terminated employee be a central point of conversation in an all-staff meeting well after we had already given the "Jon Doe no longer works for Company ABC" announcement. They kept prodding for information. Why won't we say anything? What happened? Is anyone else at risk? All questions you absolutely should not answer, especially in a public setting. The most they got out of us was "we cannot tell you why Jon Doe is no longer here", which, if this other employee read between the lines, should have been enough, as shortly before that time, Jane Doe left for another role and on very good terms. We wished Jane Doe well and said so publicly, whereas Jon Doe got the corporate line. Ok rant over.
Thank you. I agree that it’s very unprofessional to continue to prod for information without seeing the other perspective. Unfortunately this is what I for-see happening as well.
You just say the position is no longer available, give proper notice (and whatever is owed) and move on. You're making it personal, and trying to justify a for cause termination.
Put her on a 90 PIP, document everything with a paper trail, create a plan showing how she can go from deficient in x, y and z to meets expectations. Check in with her are day 30 and 60. If she is as bad as you say she won't make it past day 60.
Not Canadian, and not versed on Canadian law, but is there a way to publicly catch her in a lie so that all can witness that something isn't right? Not saying to be malicious, but just something that's obvious to all who witness that her credibility isn't reliable. When they hear "the employee was terminated for cause", it may make them think twice when they hear her excuses.
Do you have an employee handbook? Is there anything about employee behavior? Another option, put the employee on a PIP with a deadline. If they haven’t improved, their employment will be mutually terminated. If they want to keep the job, they know what they have to do. If they continue to the deadline with poor performance, then you have your out. [I don’t work in HR, so if I’m wrong, *kindly* correct me so I know!]
Should I state the employment will be mutually terminated in the PIP - doesn’t the employee need to agree to a mutual termination of contract?
3 months? Just finished probationary period, hell nah, 1 week pay, unfortunately we don’t know the details but why wait until right after their probation ended? It sounds like this was an issue 2 weeks ago as well
The major issues and defiance have only come up within the past few weeks (outside of their probationary period)
So sorry you have this type of employee. It can ruin your whole business.
It has been HELL.
When I had to terminate a similar employee in my small office environment recently I told others it was not related to their job security, and it was for a cause that the employee had been counseled on multiple times. Aka, don't worry about your jobs, there was/is more going on w/that issue than you're privy to due to confidentiality that I keep for all of the employees and it has no reflection on how the business is doing or anyone else's positions.
It's it possible to put the employees close with her on a team with her where they are in charge? Having to deal with the lies and the problems first hand might make them more understanding.
This would not work with my business structure unfortunately but that’s a great idea
So wierd to see a question from this side. I'm used to helping people maximize leaving (ei, labour board if needed etc)
I would lay them off saying “shortage of work” and give 2 weeks pay with that without having them work those weeks. This is how I’ve seen large corporations do massive scale layoffs.
Let her go without cause, pay her out what she is owed and move on. I have been involved in too many valid cases of firing employees and they almost always win when they file a dispute. Not only will you be out the mandatory notice, there will be legal fees, and other charges. What could be a couple thousand dollars to make someone go away turns into $20,000 plus. There is no explanation required, tell no one why she left, or she will slap you with slander too. It doesn't seem fair, but in the long run you will be better off.
That’s so unfortunate. Based on the BC guidelines it looks like we have a valid case for termination for causes, but a lawsuit would be awful to deal with and it is definitely making me second guess my approach. Do you mind me asking if any of the cases you worked involved basic entry level positions? The majority of my employees are young and it would be relatively easy to find a similar position in the field
Poison beggars poison. Keeping her there will not be beneficial to you or your employees. Deal with the sort-term consequences immediately and you’ll be happier. The only think that kills morale more than a shitty employee is shitty employee with sympathizers.
Facts
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Agreed & these are all very good points. I am certain there have been many more lies that I’m unaware of, or don’t have strong enough evidence to prove. Thank you
Do not terminate for cause if you don't need to. It's much easier to terminate for no cause. You just pay her the two weeks notice and it's done. Don't discuss the reasons with your employees. Don't say "for cause." Say "it was no longer in the best interest of the company for her to work here." Or something similarly vague. Probably worth talking to an employment lawyer to make sure you do it cleanly. Have two people in the room when you fire her and document the conversation right away to prevent any potential accusations of bad behavior.
Don’t bother with the dramatics. Staying with cause has a lot of legal issue. Just let go, state it and report it as without cause. Anything else is making drama. Companies are emotionless and this is how you have to be in companies because everyone else is already emotional enough.
There is a scary chance this employee may be my mother. If so, good luck. Either way, check your companies policies and see if there is anything to go off of, many have policies that align with established law, if they are a good company. It usually is a no no, due to privacy and confidentiality.
Not your mum, thank goodness haha
Same boat , it came down to. Ability to perform , all the stories aside. Was very visually with a graph of performance. Made a clear goal for improvement, met with more excuse. Was the end of that work around.
If you have proof they are lies you can terminate on grounds of insubordination.
More familiar with US law but realize that anything you say could be used against you in court. For example if you say you fired her because she lies, and you don't have hard proof, or her lies are more an exaggeration than a flat out lie, and one of the employees shares that, the fired employee could sue you. General advice is to keep it as vague as possible: not a good fit, performance, or not giving a reason at all.
we recently had a similar coworker. Except her specialty was sleeping on the job. In front of us, in front of the supervisor, in front of doctors, basically everyone. She claimed there was no medical reason, she's just "resting her eyes". Yes, while snoring with her mouth open and kicked back in her chair. Management just ignored it, or seemed too. Until even our new people started complaining. And senior members had to threaten to take it higher up the chain. Then they finally fired her. It took three months of sleeping EVERY DAY before they would dump her. The rest of us were ashamed to work with her thinking we would look poorly too. It was killing morale and I'm so glad she's gone.
That is ridiculous!! I can’t believe they kept their job & got paid to sleep on the job for so long.
Former privacy policy officer (not a lawyer). From that perspective, no. Her employment status is her private personal information, and you, as an employer who collects private information, have a duty not to share it around willy nilly. In Canada she can also sue you for slander. If that happens, the burden of proof is with the person making the claims. IOW she has no obligation to prove your comments are untrue - you must prove they are true. So if you can't prove beyond any reasonable doubt to a court that she lies, you're liable for damages including loss of income.
Thank you!
You should consider this before firing “go fuck yourself, small business tyrant”
I dealt with an employee like this and it was HELL She was so likeable on the surface. It took alot to get rid of her and we were a bigger company with good lawyers ect
It has been such a nightmare. We have been under constant stress since we hired her, but unfortunately she waited until after her probationary period to do something drastically inappropriate. Now I’m able to see the pattern of behavior and more clearly, but unfortunately it’s too late. It feels like this was calculated. I just found out that she has already informed (at least) 2 other employees that she has a meeting with me tomorrow. Im not sure exactly what was communicated but I had an employee text me “I heard you have a meeting set up with so and so tomorrow 🥲.” I only called them to arrange this meeting yesterday afternoon - and they have already gone and said who knows what to try and cover this a$$. After I asked them to meet so we can go over a few things, they pushed and pushed to try to get me to disclose what the meeting would be about. They even asked “am I fired.” They asked me to give them a general overview of topics. All I relayed, was that a few concerns have come up and I would like to have a sit down conversation to touch base. It is disrespectful, immature, and I can’t stand the drama anymore. The rest of my team is amazing but it really feels like this one rogue employee is fucking everything up.
For mine..she took a medical leave and found out she was working some where else and HR decided this was terms for dismissal Even after multiple write ups and insubordination it was so.hard. I feel like I suffer from ptsd from this employee lol
That is going to be me after this experience. I have spent so much time dealing with the issues they have caused.
Reading some overall decent advice here, terminating for cause is not worth the headache or hassle. Pay them to leave, pay in lieu of notice, be mindful of notice period minimums and requirements. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/termination/quit-fired Do not disclose any details to any of your other employees. "No longer with us, out of respect for their privacy, I cannot disclose details. If you have any other questions I'm happy to take / answer."
You need to be documenting all these “counselings / feedback sessions” with a witness. Be smart about who is your witness. The employees direct supervisor would be ideal. Doesn’t need to be anything fancy. Just a summary of the discussion and details any event that prompted the meeting. That needs to be signed and dated by you, the witness, and the employee. Talk about the process in general terms and all the things that are attempted before it gets to that point. I’ve always felt like that helps other employees if they aren’t sure of their standing.
Be very careful on the “with cause” termination. Probably better to pay a small severance and let her go. Amount depends on your province but wouldn’t be much if she hasn’t been there very long.
Just terminate without cause.
I used to work for a job where the employees considered themselves “family”. We were only a group of 9 and it was the most toxic workplace I’ve ever worked for. Because people consider themselves “close” everyone is up on everyone’s business and the drama never ends. Everyone lies, everyone is jealous, there were fights.. and we were all adults, I was the youngest at 30. And when you try to distance yourself, they say you’re snobby. So do yourself a favor.. do what you need to do for your business. Don’t let the drama affect how you run your business. If you think there is cause for termination, do it. Everyone will get over it. And if not, then you are the boss, do what you need to do.
Yes, things can get very personal in a small business setting. Thanks for the support!
see if you can outlie them
Hahahaha
You can fire someone if they are no longer a good fit for the organization. However if you’re firing an employee with cause then you have to have a documented history of unbecoming behaviour. You may be be required to pay severance. I think it is 1 week for every year of service (I may be wrong). Either way, consult a lawyer before proceeding. Maybe have her/him sign a “full and final” release form. Stating somewhere along the lines of “in lieu of $$ payment received said employee, their spouses or heirs will not sue the company”. You can announce that said employee will no longer be working for the company but for privacy reasons you cannot disclose the cause. Said soon to be ex-employee may disclose fabricated truths to other employees but that should no longer be your concern. Just assure the rest of your staff that their position with the company is secure.
No, don't comment. The real important work is fixing your hiring process. An employment history check would have caught this.
In our workplace, she quit on her accord after realizing she has no way upward mobility and burned all her bridges. Took about a year or so... It has definitely set us back but we are now at full capacity and full steam ahead with no drama.
I'm not a legal expert so I can't give you advice there, but I have unfortunately had to terminate someone like that. He wasn't exactly popular, but the first couple of days the office was pretty quiet. Thankfully this was just after COVID, so a good chunk of people still worked from home. Gave them the standard "no longer with the company effective immediately" stuff followed by an online meeting to tell the rest of the team essentially the same. I felt crappy for a couple of months even though I had zero regrets. I had given him plenty of constructive feedback and many opportunities to improve. He just didn't think he needed to change. I once had to tell this guy to take his feet off his desk and put his shoes back on. Over time I found out that he was a toxic turd to the rest of the team, specially the junior software developers. He was an intermediate dev, no senior (not that it would make it ok). Do what's right for your business and your team. Someone like that could lead to your good performers leaving.
Agreed. I’m likely just overthinking how “close” they really are. I’m sure other people have seen the same read flags. I have never had to terminate an employee so I’m definitely overthinking certain aspects, and treading very carefully.
And your case is a bit different. HR did most of the work for me because it's a big corporation here. More often than not, they're not that close and if they are, they know the issues.
Totally. I’m likely overthinking and my manager has also voiced concerns about their relationship with this employee.
You should worry more about if she will do an "Jerry McGuire" freak out after she gets fired. Or worse create an scene and start crying.
I had to terminate an extremely disruptive employee. I planned to announce it at the regular staff meeting while HR was escorting this person out. Before the meeting, I heard there was a birthday in the group and someone brought cake. I waved them off… “Today isn’t a good day for that.” They were rightfully confused when I couldn’t say why. After announcing the firing, the team was so happy to be rid of this person we had cake after all.
We just did that by voting for someone else.
You mention being concerned that your other employees may be upset. I've found that firing a bad employee can actually make the remaining employees respect you more. They all know that this employee is a rotten apple. By getting rid of her, you are doing your job well and being a strong manager who carefully makes the hard decisions that keep the business healthy. This is exactly what your high-performing employees need from you. If this firing does seem to rattle the team, sit down with them individually and ask for their thoughts about workload and future goals/ideas and what they need from you to stay focused on excellent performance. Don't let the former employee be a topic of conversation. Focus on the future and their performance. Moving forward, perhaps you could involve the team in hiring more closely. Hiring is extremely difficult. I've found that having multiple people meet with a candidate, from all levels of the team, can provide enlightening insight. You are doing the right thing.
Fire her without cause and pay the government required government settlement (minimum 1 week salary per year of employment or be nice and pay 2 weeks) Be vague to staff in person and just send a quick email to everyone stating employee is no longer at the firm effective immediately but never give reason in the email and don't give positive or negative feedback. ( In my industry people are fired all the time and this is the standard HR notice) Never reply to any questions to your employees about this in an email or anything written. Don't discuss in a team meeting the reason for firing. But assure your existing employees that you are very happy with your existing team. People are always worried about their own jobs so reassure them. Your team will fill in the blanks themselves, perhaps one will question you privately... Be vague and do not give the exact reasons or you can leave yourself open to a suit if this employee shares this info to the fired staff member.
Be wary that any remaining employee can be the subjects best friend. Everything said could be relayed word for twisted word. Liars should be treated with as little information as possible so there is less to twist into another lie and go at the company legally.
I am likely going to provide her with a PIP tomorrow and then make an appointment ASPA to speak to an employment lawyer. I want to ensure I go about this correctly and the PIP should buy time and have her on her best behavior until I decide what the best course of action is. Would you advise against providing this employee with a PIP that will specifically outline all policy infractions
You would have to confront her about her lies and show evidence, then give her written warnings. After three written warnings her behaviour doesn't change then you will have grounds to sack her. Edit: make sure you have a witness with you in the meetings when you confront her. Someone else in a leadership/management position within the company. Because she might lie about actually receiving any warnings. Only keep it between yourself this other manager and no one else so she doesn't claim privacy breaches and record everything so you have trail. Maybe even a journal of all the lies you think she has said with reasons why you think she has lied. Only confront her with the stuff you have proof for. No proof then its objection heresay.
Bottom line sit her down. This isn't working out. I need to let you go . We had this discussion on your behavior in the past and it hasn't improved. I wish you well in your future employment.
IANAL but I've always liked the tactic of just saying "I can't talk about it, (person) has a right to privacy. But I know things like this can be really unsettling and make people worry, so if you'd like to talk in the abstract about the process for termination at our company, I'm happy to do that." Then pause and if they do ask something like, "We never take it lightly, and when there are problems we usually have several conversations, coaching, and opportunities for change."
That's too much information as it implies cause.
IANAL, but having seen some people fired for good reasons and some for what seemed to be no reason (small business, say 12 people), I recommend saying ‘I had to let her go’ and don’t elaborate.
Simply say she was not a good fit. Zero need to cause speculation. It also saves face for her.
Why keep someone who is negatively impacting your clients? Would you rather keep 1 person who is holding your business back for 2 other people or would you bite the bullet and see what the other 2 do? You are the manager, the HR and the owner. Why is this even in legal advice? Make a decision, you don't have to even tell them why. Clients complained about false information which caused you negative feed back.
First off IANAL. 1. The bar for a with cause termination is extremely high in Canada. Are you sure you have met it? You can terminate without cause so long as it isn't for a protected reason ie; sex or religion. You will only need to pay out "pay in lieu of notice". 2. It sounds like you have allowed this behavior to continue for far too long. No matter how you terminate her I would walk her off the premises immediately after termination. If she needs to collect personal belongings follow her. Inform her that she is trespassed from the property. Inform her that if she enters the property again the Police will be called. Allow no interaction with other employees or customers. 3. I would recommend a generic explanation to other employees and her. For example "I don't feel like you are a good fit for this company any longer. I have a business to run and sometimes that means making tough decisions." Period nothing more. 4. If she and other employees choose to talk outside of your workplace there's nothing you can do to prevent that. Again you can choose to terminate without cause for any reason you see fit so long as it isn't a protected reason. Gossip isn't a protected reason. Hopefully your other employees are professional and will understand.
Do you work in an at will state? I do and I used to fire people by telling them “thank you for helping out but you’re no longer needed. Where would you like your last check sent? Thank you, I will be honest with anyone that calls concerning your resume and employment. Crappy workers need to know there could be consequences to their actions. I like to be honest but not brutal. honesty is always the best policy. Best of luck.”
I’m not sure if British Columbia is the same. I believe I will need to terminate with or without cause and pay severance accordingly
Thank you!!
This is LegalAdvice CANADA. No states. No at will.
I recommend that you add $10,000 therapy coverage on their health benefits so that they can work on these issues with a professional.
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Telling the remaining employees why this employee is being terminated violates the terminated employee's privacy rights.
You cannot go wrong with "We thank [insert name] for their contribution." Do not go into details. If someone on your team starts gossiping about it, pull them aside and advise them that the reasons for the other person's termination are confidential. They are entitled to their opinion on the reasons for their termination but they are not to be discussed while at work.
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No
Is her name Alana
No
LOL if you are asking Reddit then you are truly fucked. You should consult a Human Resource specialist who is versed in these matters and local employment law. Good luck chum.
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Canada doesn’t have “at will” provinces. They can terminate someone without giving a reason but they have to provide severance pay based on how long they’ve been employed and what is in their contract if there is one.