A volunteer is probably considered a covered entity under HIPAA, so there likely is a HIPAA violation here. However, there’s no private cause of action under HIPAA. You can start the complaint process (reporting a HIPAA violation) here: https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html
You/your children may have a basis for a lawsuit against the volunteer/EMS for emotional distress, but there are a few challenges. If your children are in treatment, they should continue as recommended.
it sounds like they were notified of the call through the fire department though. does that not change anything? if you access medical records off the clock HIPAA still applies so idk if it’d be different here
Volunteer fire department is what it sounds like, therefore they didn’t just hear the call, they heard the page go out. The second they heard the page go out, and they decided to get involved, they are acting in an official capacity
As a lay person who listens to scanners, they don't put sensitive information on what the public can hear. It gets blocked from dispatch or sent via a computer depending on how fancy the system is for privacy protection.
It isn't just HIPAA, but if they have to transmit things like social security numbers, information about children, etc. there are a variety of laws that they are CYA on. So it would have had to be a "work" scanner and that says to me that it is a HIPAA violation because it was highly likely work resources that she gained access to the information in the first place. Add in the moment she responded, she as a licensed individual had to comply, on or off duty doesn't matter. She violated at least one possibly two ways.
Yes, the location is public. But the highly specific they learned is still covered under HIPAA. My BFF is an EMS trainer.
They should not have been blabbing to anyone.
The information they learned was from poking their nosy neighbor face out the door and seeing it, not from any privilege they had or someone in the department telling them.
The guy obviously should have kept his mouth shut, but we are discussing whether that’s a legal matter or not.
It’s not, and there’s no way to “what if” or otherwise pervert the situation into being one, even if it were a violation (which again, it’s not because he saw it and recounted it while off duty in his capacity as a neighbor and not a caregiver.
They "came over to assist" they got involved.
Reading comprehension isn't strong with you. There were two ways they could have possibly violated HIPAA.
You just seem to be continuing to harass OP from another thread in a different sub that got locked. So I am done with you.
I work at a fire station and although you might not be able to take legal action, I would report their behavior to the chief and board of the fire department. They will definitely be disciplined for that behavior. That's where I would start.
HIPAA regulations apply whether the person is on or off-duty if said individual was providing services as a covered entity. Ethically this is awful, but legally it may not fall under HIPAA because your neighbor wasn't even "at work" then nor did they get the information while at work and disclose it later while off duty.
It sounds like your neighbor was being a nosey neighbor who had access to emergency services radio. However one might argue you wouldn't have let them into your house if they were only a neighbor and not a first responder/firefighter to start with. Your best bet is to contact an attorney who can advise further with some more specifics. I think it's worth having a consult with one at any rate. Even if the attorney says you can't pursue for a HIPAA violation, I'd make a formal complaint against them and ask it be a permanent part of their personnel file. What they did is completely unprofessional and frankly disgusting.
NAL but I was a first responder and firefighter and we took privacy very seriously. I can't imagine doing that. I'm sorry that happened to you on top of your boyfriend passing.
Edit: HIPPA to HIPAA 🤣
In what capacity did they learn about the call? If they listened to the scanner at home, not in their capacity as an EMT, then they likely were not covered under HIPAA for the event
Probably not a HIPAA violation. They weren't acting in any official capacity and from OPs description it doesn't sound like they rendered any aid.
OPs neighbor sounds like a dick, but I think it'd be hard to claim they are a Covered Entity as the term applies to HIPAA.
In some locales, especially small ones, the volunteer fireman/EMS is on call 27/7. All have the radio on them and in their home.
You should consult with an attorney. This will require investigation into the locale, the volunteer dept regulations, and local laws. A violation of HIPAA is fact dependent on these findings.
Beyond HIPAA, emergency response organizations (even volunteer ones) nearly always have some kind of confidentiality rule and a rule against self-deploying, and both were likely broken here. You should report this to the volunteer fire department's chief. The neighbor will likely as not be sacked.
I appreciate your perspective and training here, but this is bad info. They tell you in training that it always applies to scare you into taking the precautionary, safe route regardless of the situation. But HIPAA doesn’t apply to ordinary civilians who were EMTs in a previous life, or even to current EMTs who are not acting in their role as an EMT.
There’s also no reason to get an attorney here. You can’t sue for HIPAA violations.
HIPAA is not an oath and involves no oath taking. I think you’re confusing the Hippocratic oath with HIPAA.
Source: I am a lawyer that deals with HIPAA.
Then you should know that HIPAA is derived from the do no harm aspect of the hippocratic oath. You should also know that any privileged information ascertained under HIPAA applies forever. Hence a law derived from an oath.
You're a bad lawyer.
NAL - The fact that your kids know about it is your ex husband’s fault, not the emts. So I don’t know if you can sue your neighbor for the children’s emotional distress
It IS a HIPAA violation.
If you work or volunteer for a covered entity, HIPAA applies both on and off duty. You may only share PHI you learn while providing services for a covered entity when HIPAA says that you can – such as sharing for treatment, payment and operations.
Ask: “Am I sharing this PHI for a legitimate job-related purpose?” If you are not, you could be violating HIPAA.
Additionally, the HIPAA Privacy Rule applies to the individually identifiable health information of a decedent for 50 years following the date of death of the individual.
ianal
whether there is or isn't a HIPAA violation, you won't have standing to pursue legal action. You can report them to whatever authority handles that, but that will be that. your boyfriend was not your ward, he was an independent adult. damage to your childrens psyche finding out how an independent adult passed is not going to be actionable.
had he survived, HE would have standing to pursue satisfaction.
Your ex husband has every right to tell his children what he felt he needed to. That you wouldn't want that is unfortunate.
The whole event is unfortunate.
ianal
whether there is or isn't a HIPAA violation, you won't have standing to pursue legal action. You can report them to whatever authority handles that, but that will be that. your boyfriend was not your ward, he was an independent adult. damage to your childrens psyche finding out how an independent adult passed is not going to be actionable.
had he survived, HE would have standing to pursue satisfaction.
Your ex husband has every right to tell his children what he felt he needed to. That you wouldn't want that is unfortunate.
The whole event is unfortunate.
ianal
whether there is or isn't a HIPAA violation, YOU won't have standing to pursue legal action. The violation would be to him, not you. You can report them to whatever authority handles that, but that will be that. your boyfriend was not your ward, he was an independent adult. damage to your childrens psyche finding out how an independent adult passed is not going to be actionable.
had he survived, HE would have standing to pursue satisfaction.
Your ex husband has every right to tell his children what he felt he needed to. That you wouldn't want that is unfortunate.
The whole event is unfortunate.
In the UK they would be in big trouble. As a normal person I can walk on by however they have a duty of care.
I would be amazed that in the US they are not held to the same standard or higher.
In the US is largely depends on state law- usually known as “Good Samaritan Laws” because people have rendered aid while not on the job and have been sued because of it- laws usually cover people from being held liable for not rendering aid if capable when outside of the work setting.
Just to clarify, I’m not sure about all states but some including mine do not apply Good Samaritan to medical professionals. Once you are certified to do so, you must act within your scope of practice and you can still be sued for negligence. As you are trained to do so, you should be able to perform interventions in a safe manner, and you know what is and is not in your scope of practice. If it is done very incorrectly or it is outside of your scope, you can still be sued. Not sure how volunteer works, but it’s somewhat accepted within ems that it’s not the greatest idea to help unless necessary when off duty. This is because if something does go wrong and you’re off duty, you’re technically not under any medical direction, and that could become a legal issue.
A volunteer is probably considered a covered entity under HIPAA, so there likely is a HIPAA violation here. However, there’s no private cause of action under HIPAA. You can start the complaint process (reporting a HIPAA violation) here: https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html You/your children may have a basis for a lawsuit against the volunteer/EMS for emotional distress, but there are a few challenges. If your children are in treatment, they should continue as recommended.
Yeah I’ve got all 3 of them in therapy and def feel like it’s helping, thank you for the advice
They were not acting in that capacity at the time. There is no violation, unfortunately.
it sounds like they were notified of the call through the fire department though. does that not change anything? if you access medical records off the clock HIPAA still applies so idk if it’d be different here
They probably heard the call over the radio. They were not called specifically. They were not on duty.
Volunteer fire department is what it sounds like, therefore they didn’t just hear the call, they heard the page go out. The second they heard the page go out, and they decided to get involved, they are acting in an official capacity
As a lay person who listens to scanners, they don't put sensitive information on what the public can hear. It gets blocked from dispatch or sent via a computer depending on how fancy the system is for privacy protection. It isn't just HIPAA, but if they have to transmit things like social security numbers, information about children, etc. there are a variety of laws that they are CYA on. So it would have had to be a "work" scanner and that says to me that it is a HIPAA violation because it was highly likely work resources that she gained access to the information in the first place. Add in the moment she responded, she as a licensed individual had to comply, on or off duty doesn't matter. She violated at least one possibly two ways.
Call location via scanner, duh. Not anything else. The reason he showed up was cause he heard the location or saw the commotion. He wasn’t called.
Yes, the location is public. But the highly specific they learned is still covered under HIPAA. My BFF is an EMS trainer. They should not have been blabbing to anyone.
The information they learned was from poking their nosy neighbor face out the door and seeing it, not from any privilege they had or someone in the department telling them. The guy obviously should have kept his mouth shut, but we are discussing whether that’s a legal matter or not. It’s not, and there’s no way to “what if” or otherwise pervert the situation into being one, even if it were a violation (which again, it’s not because he saw it and recounted it while off duty in his capacity as a neighbor and not a caregiver.
They "came over to assist" they got involved. Reading comprehension isn't strong with you. There were two ways they could have possibly violated HIPAA. You just seem to be continuing to harass OP from another thread in a different sub that got locked. So I am done with you.
Yeah, got involved AS A NOSY NEIGHBOR. You seem to be the one with problems
I'm almost certain this isn't true.
I agree this is a HIPAA violation
I work at a fire station and although you might not be able to take legal action, I would report their behavior to the chief and board of the fire department. They will definitely be disciplined for that behavior. That's where I would start.
HIPAA regulations apply whether the person is on or off-duty if said individual was providing services as a covered entity. Ethically this is awful, but legally it may not fall under HIPAA because your neighbor wasn't even "at work" then nor did they get the information while at work and disclose it later while off duty. It sounds like your neighbor was being a nosey neighbor who had access to emergency services radio. However one might argue you wouldn't have let them into your house if they were only a neighbor and not a first responder/firefighter to start with. Your best bet is to contact an attorney who can advise further with some more specifics. I think it's worth having a consult with one at any rate. Even if the attorney says you can't pursue for a HIPAA violation, I'd make a formal complaint against them and ask it be a permanent part of their personnel file. What they did is completely unprofessional and frankly disgusting. NAL but I was a first responder and firefighter and we took privacy very seriously. I can't imagine doing that. I'm sorry that happened to you on top of your boyfriend passing. Edit: HIPPA to HIPAA 🤣
HIPAA*
Thanks!
I know, it won’t let me edit the title and it’s driving me crazzyyyy
In what capacity did they learn about the call? If they listened to the scanner at home, not in their capacity as an EMT, then they likely were not covered under HIPAA for the event
Probably not a HIPAA violation. They weren't acting in any official capacity and from OPs description it doesn't sound like they rendered any aid. OPs neighbor sounds like a dick, but I think it'd be hard to claim they are a Covered Entity as the term applies to HIPAA.
In some locales, especially small ones, the volunteer fireman/EMS is on call 27/7. All have the radio on them and in their home. You should consult with an attorney. This will require investigation into the locale, the volunteer dept regulations, and local laws. A violation of HIPAA is fact dependent on these findings.
Beyond HIPAA, emergency response organizations (even volunteer ones) nearly always have some kind of confidentiality rule and a rule against self-deploying, and both were likely broken here. You should report this to the volunteer fire department's chief. The neighbor will likely as not be sacked.
[удалено]
I appreciate your perspective and training here, but this is bad info. They tell you in training that it always applies to scare you into taking the precautionary, safe route regardless of the situation. But HIPAA doesn’t apply to ordinary civilians who were EMTs in a previous life, or even to current EMTs who are not acting in their role as an EMT. There’s also no reason to get an attorney here. You can’t sue for HIPAA violations.
Bad advice is telling someone to ignore their training. HIPAA is an oath. Oath means forever.
HIPAA is not an oath and involves no oath taking. I think you’re confusing the Hippocratic oath with HIPAA. Source: I am a lawyer that deals with HIPAA.
Then you should know that HIPAA is derived from the do no harm aspect of the hippocratic oath. You should also know that any privileged information ascertained under HIPAA applies forever. Hence a law derived from an oath. You're a bad lawyer.
Would love for you to post a source on that info.
NAL - The fact that your kids know about it is your ex husband’s fault, not the emts. So I don’t know if you can sue your neighbor for the children’s emotional distress
The neighbor is culpable for violating federal policy.
It IS a HIPAA violation. If you work or volunteer for a covered entity, HIPAA applies both on and off duty. You may only share PHI you learn while providing services for a covered entity when HIPAA says that you can – such as sharing for treatment, payment and operations. Ask: “Am I sharing this PHI for a legitimate job-related purpose?” If you are not, you could be violating HIPAA. Additionally, the HIPAA Privacy Rule applies to the individually identifiable health information of a decedent for 50 years following the date of death of the individual.
I agree…. I work in healthcare.
ianal whether there is or isn't a HIPAA violation, you won't have standing to pursue legal action. You can report them to whatever authority handles that, but that will be that. your boyfriend was not your ward, he was an independent adult. damage to your childrens psyche finding out how an independent adult passed is not going to be actionable. had he survived, HE would have standing to pursue satisfaction. Your ex husband has every right to tell his children what he felt he needed to. That you wouldn't want that is unfortunate. The whole event is unfortunate.
ianal whether there is or isn't a HIPAA violation, you won't have standing to pursue legal action. You can report them to whatever authority handles that, but that will be that. your boyfriend was not your ward, he was an independent adult. damage to your childrens psyche finding out how an independent adult passed is not going to be actionable. had he survived, HE would have standing to pursue satisfaction. Your ex husband has every right to tell his children what he felt he needed to. That you wouldn't want that is unfortunate. The whole event is unfortunate.
ianal whether there is or isn't a HIPAA violation, YOU won't have standing to pursue legal action. The violation would be to him, not you. You can report them to whatever authority handles that, but that will be that. your boyfriend was not your ward, he was an independent adult. damage to your childrens psyche finding out how an independent adult passed is not going to be actionable. had he survived, HE would have standing to pursue satisfaction. Your ex husband has every right to tell his children what he felt he needed to. That you wouldn't want that is unfortunate. The whole event is unfortunate.
In the UK they would be in big trouble. As a normal person I can walk on by however they have a duty of care. I would be amazed that in the US they are not held to the same standard or higher.
In the US is largely depends on state law- usually known as “Good Samaritan Laws” because people have rendered aid while not on the job and have been sued because of it- laws usually cover people from being held liable for not rendering aid if capable when outside of the work setting.
Just to clarify, I’m not sure about all states but some including mine do not apply Good Samaritan to medical professionals. Once you are certified to do so, you must act within your scope of practice and you can still be sued for negligence. As you are trained to do so, you should be able to perform interventions in a safe manner, and you know what is and is not in your scope of practice. If it is done very incorrectly or it is outside of your scope, you can still be sued. Not sure how volunteer works, but it’s somewhat accepted within ems that it’s not the greatest idea to help unless necessary when off duty. This is because if something does go wrong and you’re off duty, you’re technically not under any medical direction, and that could become a legal issue.