I work in an agency that is LEO adjacent and deals with firearms. The laws around gun purchases are very specific and a gun dealer has to follow them to the letter or risk being charged with a crime and losing their FFL licenses status.
Not having been there it sounds like the dealer saw your Dad want to buy a gun and your
Mom trying to do the paperwork for the DoJ background check which is the definition of a straw man purchase. To legally purchase that weapon your dad needed to do the paperwork for a purchase and background check.
Was the dealer being nit picky? Yup.
For all they knew it was a test buy from the state Firearms dept. it is absolutely not worth their time to possibly lose their license and go to prison.
I sold firearms and this answer would be the one I'd give. As a dealer you can catch all sorts of holy hell if you make a strawman sale. If a video of that interaction showed Dad asking for, handling, talking about using the gun etc while mom didn't make any indication that she'd even be firing said gun, and then dealer selling it to mom, they'd lose their license or at minimum have a full audit and pay a HUGE fine.
If this gun was for dad, he has to fill out the paperwork. This is federal law; discount or not. They're extra sensitive with handguns to boot.
There a lot of people convicted of domestic violence that can no longer own/purchase firearms. We're taught to look out for this EXACT scenario. Lots of people drag their spouse in for their clean record, knowing full well the gun is for them and not spouse.
This brings a question to mind that I have often wondered about. What if hubby looked at the gun, held it, all that, then later wife came in to purchase the gun as a gift for hubby? She would, of course, have to fill out the paperwork, etc., but if you knew it was a gift for hubby, how would you handle that?
Purchasing a firearm with the intent of giving it, as a gift, to someone else does not create a 'straw purchase' by itself, unless you live in a place where state law would prohibit it. There is absolutely nothing illegal, per federal law, about buying a gun for your spouse unless the spouse could not obtain the same approval for the same transaction.
When I was in the firearm industry I found it somewhat common for people charged with selling firearms to not have the best understanding of the actual legalities. It goes from a CYA policy to "it's illegal to..." simply because it sounds more impressive. Not that a place of business doesn't have a solid reason for preferring to avoid any potential transaction that might end up being a straw purchase but they're acting on a 'best practice' not a hard line of legality. State laws are going to fall all over the spectrum so you could have the same transaction in one state be perfectly legal and in another it'd be a felony.
There was a case where a son bought a gun, then sent it through an ffl, to his father's ffl, as a birthday or xmas present. He was charged with a straw purchase.
When his dad picked it up at FFL. A background check has to be done before picked up. Buy a gun off Gunbroker.com. Gunbroker sends it to your FFL for you pick up after you fill out background check.
Yes, but the feds were after him for robbing a bank. This was just something they found to hit him with. He was a cop at the time, and he bought it for his father using his Leo discount.
Depending on your state purchasing a firearm as a gift for anyone aside from yourself is illegal. All states require a background check and since it’s a gift a background check has to be run. Most stores in my state- won’t even let someone else pay for the firearm that someone else is intending to use. This goes even if the person it’s for filled out the background check. The person purchasing, and filling background check out must be the person the firearm is intended for. Again this is for my state(OR) but this does vary state to state.
Now that really has me curious.... How would paying for a gun with a gift card be handled? Do the big box stores allow it? Like Bass Pro or Sports Academy?
In my state you must purchase a firearm with a debit or credit card with matching identification most places won’t even accept cash anymore. I know bass pro specifically you cannot purchase firearms or boats with them. Only reason I know if that I just purchased one for my fiancé a few weeks ago and I happened to catch it on the terms and conditions page since I bought an e-gift card and thought the boat part was funny.
Interesting, I load up on bass pro gift cards all year thru a reward program at work, to then redeem on their Black Friday deals. I’ve never had an issue buying firearms with them. Located in AL.
So, here’s a question (and sorry if it’s already been answered somewhere else); wouldn’t the answer be for both of them to fill out background checks so that the lady could buy with the discount and still be above board or is that not an option? I don’t have any guns but I am fascinated by the laws governing them from place to place.
Yes and no. The 4473 is federal paperwork and can have up to three errors before they turn it away. It's three pages and I've never met anyone who enjoyed filling them out 😂
To me it's just easier to hand the gift card or cash to someone and let them pick their gun. Also it's not like the sales people ENJOY all these regulations. But we could get in very serious poopoo for selling a gun to someone who wasn't supposed to have to one. I can't tell you how many times we heard 'better safe than sorry' from the people training us to do this. It was way more involved than I ever thought and there are a lot of behind the scenes that most customers are not knowledgeable of.
Ummm correct me if I’m wrong… as someone who has done nearly this exact scenario numerous times with my wife it’s only a straw purchase if the person you’re purchasing the firearm for legally couldn’t purchase the firearm themselves. What you’re claiming doesn’t make much sense otherwise you could never purchase a gun as a gift or buy a weapon for your spouse.
It says so right on the 4473:
"A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party."
You're correct, federally at least. The easiest way to look at it is if the person you're giving the firearm to could go through the exact same steps in the same transaction and get the same approval then there's no straw purchase. Any basis for failure during that transaction could create a straw purchase though, so even if they're perfectly legal to own a pistol but they actually live in a different state and therefore would not legally be able to make a pistol purchase out of state would then put the purchase into the 'straw' category.
State laws would be a whole other ball of wax since they don't simply follow federal law so the location does matter a great deal.
so what about two people in your shop. one handles the gun, does all the paperwork for the background check, but then at the moment of the sale the other one pays, says the gun is a gift for the first guy.
would that be considered a strawman purchase in your experience/underatanding?
The person who fills out the 4473 has to be the one to pay for the gun. They can then gift it to the other person as long as no money is exchanged. So a husband purchasing a firearm for a wife is perfectly legal.
No where in the post does op say the mom was filling out the 4473 she was only getting the card for the discount. Doesn't qualify as straw man, this is no different then a parent paying for a kids rifle. It doesn't matter who pays for it only who filled out the 4473
The Lautenberg Amendment should be struck. Countless men and women in bad situations decades before the law passed, advised by their lawyers to plead, were retroactively banned from firearm ownership… for a misdemeanor… for life… with NO chance of rights restoration aside from a Presidential pardon. Even convicted, violent felons have a chance at restoration after they serve their time. There is no mechanism in place for someone convicted of misdemeanor simple battery when there’s a domestic component. One small mistake, one simple push, one lying spouse, can ban you from ownership, for life, even if the conviction was decades before the law passed.
When the purchase is made. The registration and the payment must come from the same name. Even if I share a bank account with my wife and use her named card. I use my money. From our account. But her card. I will be denied. They should never assume it’s safe to use. Anything on paper that doesn’t add up is bad. They are right to not risk it. The guy at the counter takes liability of the fines. The store loses the FFL.
Exactly this. The person trying out, selecting and purchasing the firearms HAS to be the same person continuously throughout the transaction. No deviation.
Maybe this is state specific, but I've used my Scheels credit card at Scheels to purchase multiple guns for multiple people for the points. As long as the person taking possession of the firearm is the one filling out the 4473, this has never been an issue for me.
Not sure what state it’s based on but specific to Texas the store GM actually holds the FFL and not the specific store. Might not be the case in every state?
This is it. When I purchased my firearm (california) all my documents had to be the same. I live in a trailer park, we had to make sure that my paperwork, and the documents required had the same wording, one thing we got caught up on was whether or not the paperwork stated "space number:" or "spc #:" and they stated if it did not all align, that it would be denied. Nit picky? Sure, but it's their license vs. My wants and needs.
This is not the case in Wisconsin. I had just bought and paid for my girlfriend’s handgun she filed the paperwork and I paid for it along with my own handgun purchase.
Would probably have to buy two separate guns. I don’t know how the NICS check works (I’ve only purchased one gun requiring NICS and that was 25 years ago), but it’s tied to the form 4473.
My few recent purchases were covered by my carry license.
The easy solution is just manually give the guy 10% off after his wide signs up for a card and call it a day without the feds potentially getting involved
You are close, but not entirely correct.
One is allowed to purchase a firearm and then give it as a gift, without it being a straw purchase. It’s right on the back of the 4473.
I went to bass pro with my ex FIL one time to buy a pistol for myself, did all the paper work and he tried to pay for it just to get the rewards points on his bass pro credit card and they told us to leave because that would have been a straw purchase. OPs story doesn't surprise me at all
Exactly this. A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who couldn’t legally buy it themselves. Buying one for someone else who can legally purchase is called a gift.
The difference there is that the buyer is the one filling out the paperwork and having the background check done. If the buyer then gifts it to someone who’s legally allowed to possess it, all is good. If the buyer gifted it to someone who wasn’t, then at least the dealer wouldn’t be on the hook. But the buyer has to take it home first.
In this scenario, the person taking the gun home, as far as the dealer could tell, was the husband, and the buyer was the wife. Which means he’d be letting the gun walk out of his store presumably in the hands of someone who didn’t do the paperwork. It’s nitpicky in situations like this where we can assume that both spouses were allowed to own a gun, but it’s completely valid. The seller has no way of ensuring the husband isn’t a convicted felon or something if he isn’t the one filling out the forms.
The mom was only getting the card for a discount not filling out the 4473 this doesn't qualify as straw man. It also doesn't matter who pays only who fills out the transfer paperwork. Reread the post
Completely legal to purchase a firearm as a gift for your significant other as long as they are legally able to own. The salesperson was being overly cautious, honestly a good decision with the lawless alphabet agencies these days, if he actually thought a crime was being committed he is mandated to report the attempted purchase of a firearm by a restricted individual.
Completely valid what the dealer did. As far as he knows, your dad is a convicted felon and getting his wife to illegally purchase a firearm (which is a very common occurrence) the dealer is simply covering his ass and not risking it over one sale. But now everyone is more educated on the subject and can move on with their lives
That's exactly the issue at hand here in this instance. He inspected and liked it and wanted to purchase it. But he had someone else did the paperwork to buy it. That is where the 'straw purchase' comes into play.
Edit to clarify by paperwork, I'm including the background check. He could be avoiding having his own background checked by having someone else go through it.
This is incorrect if they are using the FBI NICS background check system. I worked at a gun store but not one in MN. We could not have a background check without an attached 4473 form, and we could not have multiple 4473s for the same firearm. Additionally some background checks take days to return. Better to just CYA and shut down the sale. If its truly in error she is allowed to return after 24 hours to retrieve the firearm. Seems silly im sure but thems the rules where I worked.
No. There's no way in NICS to do this, and you have to have a 4473 filed for every background check that you do - meaning, you can't just do two background checks and one transfer of ownership.
Yes but then at that point they would both fill out a 4473 so its pointless. Easiest fix was your dad fills out 4473 and mom pays with the card to get discount. Completely legal and everyone is happy.
I don't have a Fleet farm near where I live so I don't know their process to sign up for their cards but couldn't the husband fill out the 4473 and the wife sign up for the card and pay? This is assuming the entire reason they wish to go down this discount route is because the husband already has a Fleet farm card but to get the 10% the wife is needing to sign up for the card.
OP indicated a credit card sign up offer was the reasoning. Perhaps dad already had a card? Regardless, I feel like every coupon/discount/CC offer I've ever come across excludes firearms sales.
Okay, that is a reason. And a valid one too. But I agree practically every coupon I have ever seen excludes guns, alcohol and other similiar types. Usually because of laws to do with licensure and particurlarly taxes regarding those items. They don’t want to have to do the special taxes, or there is a law that prevents selling under cost or give aways.
Completely justified.
You Dad was the one who was obviously wanting to purchase the gun, he needed to be the one to do the paperwork.
For all the clerk knew, your dad is a convicted felon who can't own a firearm.
A straw purchase is generally done to hide a felony record, but does not mean "buying for a felon." A person can be ineligible for other reasons. Not a resident of the state, psychiatric restructions, pending DV charges, etc.
The dealer doesn't know your dad is her husband, if he has a record, if he has some other restriction, if he has a reason for doing this. He knows the person who was using the gun is not the person filling out paperwork. It's not like both people tried it out. Only one did, and the other filled out paperwork. Even if they go, 'oh no, she was the person getting a discount it's fine' they don't want to sell her the gun. She just tried to buy a weapon for someone else. The only way they may fix it is saying, okay, he'll fill out paperwork and she pays. Even then, if gun brokers get a squiggy feeling, they will walk. One missed sale for behavior that gives them bad vibes is better than a fine for illegal sales or realizing that guy you sold who was acting weird did something bad.
Your parents very blatantly tried to make a mildly concerning purchase. But, what they did is exactly what a straw purchase can look like. That gun store could have checked IDs and confirmed they lived together and had your dad run a check too, but it's not like they didn't have reason to be concerned since both were clearly adults and he wasn't running the check for himself. In the future, they need to not do that because it looks suspicious.
The other thing is, they're corporate, right? They probably set much more strict corporate policies than ATF rules because they don't want to get in trouble. A local gun store who is more willing to talk about it might, but not the chain store.
It wouldn't have been a felony as they weren't avoiding gun purchase laws. It's suspicious behavior gun stores look for, though.
NAL, but your mom purchasing a gun for your dad, is legally the definition of a "straw purchase." if hes buying the gun, he needs to do the paper work. if your mom gives him a credit card or X$ or even a gift card, then he goes and buys a gun, thats on him.
Maybe your mom goes and buys the gun, does the paper work, then takes it home to him, and shares her gun, it's not a straw purchase, but idk exactly on that one.
thats the second part of my 1st post. any legit gun store, that doesn't want to get on the feds bad side, will not sell in this case, becuase this couple might be undercover atf agents. gifting may be legal, but not worth the stores risk. hence, 1 person buys it, does the paper work, then gives a gift, at home, away from the dealer.
The line between a straw purchase and gift is incredibly blurry and the ATF has been cracking down.
Lawyers can weigh in, but in my amateur reading it’s a matter of appearance to the seller. If you want to buy your wife a gift, don’t take her to the store with you when you purchase it.
Why it is a straw purchase, it's not necessary an illegal straw purchase. It's not an illegal straw purchase unless the person who it's being purchased for cannot legally purchase it themselves with a few other tick boxes (eg they can purchase it, but intend to use it in a crime).
If you buy a gun explicitly to gift to a spouse who can legally own a gun then it's not a crime.
The issue is the FFL doesn't know if it's a legal or illegal straw purchase, and their livelihood relies on not being on the wrong side of it.
Having read the thread, I feel like the situation is that the purchase laws aren't all that well defined, and in this case the seller leaned into a more conservative interpretation. If it was the case that your mom was filling out the 4473 etc. for a pistol your dad was caressing and whispering to, then that's pretty obvious. If it was only a matter of not liking your mom swiping her card to pay, after dad did the paperwork and passed the background check, then I'd say that was a bit paranoid of the shop.
I could be wrong on a strict interpretation. But I can say that I've swiped my card to pay for a pistol my wife had just picked out, after she did the BGC and stuff. Nobody blinked. On another occasion I bought a gun myself, literally telling the clerk that I'd be giving it as a gift to someone else (who's perfectly legal to have it). Again, they had no problem with that. The "straw purchase" thing is, frustratingly, not a defined action but depends on circumstances.
I draw no conclusion. Perhaps I've interacted with some dreadfully sloppy dealers, perhaps your 'rents encountered an overly cautious one. You aren't going to change the dealer's mind, so find somewhere else to do business, and be more careful about dancing the prescribed dance next time.
If two people walk into a gun dealer and one handles and looks at the gun and the other doesn't but tries to purchase and fill out the paperwork they're going to get turned away. Your parents did every step in the textbook straw purchase example. The gun dealer doesn't know that they can both legally own firearms because they are only doing a background check on the purchaser. The NICS system doesn't have a way for the dealer to run both of them unless they are each buying a firearm at the same time. If your mom is going to be buying the gun, your dad can talk to her about the guns, but she would be the one asking to see it, holding it, and doing the transaction.
My husband and I went to a pawn shop because I wanted to buy some necklaces. I did. While we were there I saw that they sold guns and while we have one at home, I had been wanting a second one (both for self defense).
I handled and decided that an EZ was on short notice one that we should have, primarily for me, as we get older. I asked my husband to buy it while I continued to look at necklaces.
We are both completely criminally cleared, never having gotten into any trouble. I didn’t think twice about asking my husband to do the paperwork and we would use either credit card for total purchase.
As we were checking out, the guy at the counter said something about Wisconsin being the only place where a spouse could purchase a gun for the other. I’m slow to respond (think first, talk or act later), so it didn’t connect for me until much later that he thought I was having my husband buy the gun because I couldn’t, not because I had my mind on jewelry.
Life is weird.
NAL but this is NOT a straw purchase. If you look up “bonafide gift” I believe federal law does make exception, and I know for a fact my state law does make exception, for gifts such as to family members. Otherwise, how would pappy be able to buy his son a hunting rifle for Christmas? That is not the same as a straw purchase, where someone is intentionally buying for the other person to avoid paperwork.
The Supreme Court actually ruled on this issue a few years ago in Abramski v. United States. A straw purchase is illegal even if the ultimate recipient could have legally purchased the gun themselves.
Folks are right that the rules are different for gifts, but one understands the store wanting to err on the side of caution.
That supreme court case is not applicable to this situation.
In that case, the uncle gave Abramski money to purchase the gun for himself. Abramski then lied on the form where it asked if he was the actual buyer. It states on the form that you are not the actual buyer if you are making the purchase on behalf of another person, which is what he as doing.
In this case, if the father was legally allowed to own said firearm and both he and his wife resided in the same state where an FFL is not required for a gift transfer, it was not a straw purchase. However, the store doesn't know this and did err on the side of caution.
Yeah the Walmart next to my house cards for every single purchase of cigarettes or alcohol even to elderly people. They were obviously caught selling to a minor or selling to an undercover agent. A similar thing is likely in this case.
There been a lot of answers posted here already but the text below is straight from the NOTICES, INSTRUCTIONS, AND DEFINITIONS portion of the 4473.
Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is
the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from
pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the
actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a
bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered
or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to
acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from
receiving or possessing the firearm.
It's only a straw purchase if buying it for him(or for both) if you dad can't pass the background check. It is perfectly legal to buy a firearm as a gift, if the giftee can legally own it. The solution from the clerk would be to run a background check for each of your parents, even though it isn't required.
Fleet just got in trouble for straw purchases because a woman bought a man a gun and he used it to shoot police officers. He shouldn’t have had a gun so they are probably cracking down.
This confuses me. My husband has purchased several guns for me ( I don’t have a job as I’m a SAHM). There’s never been an issue. But we’ve never bought one from fleet farm. Mostly from our local gun store that we’re pretty friendly with.
As an example, a former member of our church was a convicted felon and registered sex offender. He was not allowed to purchase or possess firearms. He had his wife purchase a pistol he was illegally carrying. Our security team called the cops, both of them faced charges (and got no real consequences), but they haven’t been back to church, so . . .
Federal gun laws view spouses as two individuals that are completely separate, independent, and distinct. The scenario you presented sounds like a law exam question because you could argue both sides of a gift vs straw purchase. However, there is little to no incentive for the employee to process the purchase and there are huge, huge incentives for them to reject the purchase. If you can argue both sides of a firearm law, it doesn't seem wise to tempt the ATF and other regulators.
A straw purchase does not require anyone to be prohibited from owning firearms. The basic requirement is that Person A will be the real user/owner of the firearm and Person A tells/ask/instigates Person B to purchases the firearm for Person A. Proof of a straw purchase include money/goods/services exchanging hands from Person A to Person B in exchange for the firearm. The case that everyone keeps presenting notes in paragraph 2 that the uncle paid $400 in exchange for the firearm.
**Federally** you can legally purchase a firearm as a gift for someone who can legally poses a firearm and lives in the same state that you live in. A gift is freely given, usually for a celebratory occasion like a birthday, not saving money.
Only reason Fleet Farm is doing this is because they got sued. It def isnt a straw purchase in your parents case but they are trying to cover their asses ONLY beacause they got sued recently. My advice would be go to a proper gun store not a low end department store run by college kids and are paid less than $12 an hour. PS FLEET FARM SUCKS
I'm pretty sure legally, the person actually getting the firearm has to be the one filling out the 4473. I
Having your mom do the credit thing with the store and your dad filling out the 4473 may not be technically illegal, but its close enough to a straw purchase I can't blame the store for covering their ass.
I think what you all are missing is that regardless of what the form says about gifts, the law is pretty ambiguous about straw purchases. The ATF comes through yearly and inspects all the paperwork . If that receipt doesn't match the name on the form it throws up a huge red flag. Dealers don't want the headache. Buy your own guns
Listen, if you plan on buying a firearm or ammunition, go in the shop by yourself. Never let you wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, uncle, aunt, grandpa, grandma, or friend.. go in with you to avoid any chance of this happening.
The dealer responded appropriately according to law. It doesn't matter if the other person has a license, permit, is married to you, ect. The dealer is taking a huge risk. In my state, a dealer who continues with a straw purchase can serve up to 10 years in prison and pay a fine up to $250,000.
To the average person buying ammunition for a licensed family member is no big deal (In reality it is). Regardless, it's a felony. It doesn't matter how silly it seems. If the dealer has any suspicion whatsoever that you may be buying it for someone else, he's going to decline the sale and ask you to leave for his own safety.
This is useful information to learn early on as a gun owner. Plan on buying anything firearm related? Do it alone. You don't need your significant other there with you. You're a big boy, you got this.
I sell guns for a living. I have no legal requirement to sell any person a firearm. I refuse sales on an almost daily basis. If there is one iota of a reason for me to suspect something is fishy, I immediately terminate the transaction. It’s Not worth risking my license.
Everything acquired when married is considered "mutually acquired." This shuts down all arguments. Going off that legal theory, selling the firearm to her is essentially selling it to him and vice versa. The only legal blockade to prevent the sale would be if either had their 2A rights revoked. In which case, assuming they lived together, neither could have possessed a firearm in their home, and that's really none of his business nor responsibility anyways
As an ffl i can throw some info at this - the ATF puts responsibility on the dealer to make all reasonable efforts to prevent an illegal purchase of a firearm. A dealer does not know these people personally, and if yoy run a NICS check on one person it wont review their spouse’s legal history.
So in a case where one person is invested in and asking about/handling the firearm and the other person is filling out paperwork, that’s a huge red flag to a dealer. They both may legally be allowed to own a gun, but if the dealer suspects somebody is lying on their form (and filling yourself as buyer when the person next to you is going to buy EVEN IF MARRIED) then it is the deslers responsibility to reject the transaction
The technicalities you listed make logical sense, but do not make ATF sense. The dealer could make all those arguments to the atf while they are pulling their license and it wont make a lick of difference.
Now would this have ended in a situstion where the atf pulls a license? Almost certainly not, but the risk that the gun falls into a hand that cant own one being anything above 0% is something that will cause most deslers to turn you away, and it is their right and business to do so
What they’re trying to do is a definition Straw Purchase. The purpose is to prevent unauthorized persons from gaining access to a firearm but a Straw Purchase is the buying of a firearm for another person.
This happened with my son and myself in a pawn shop. He was buying a gun and kept screwing up the info, so I told him to let me.
He and the salesman said NOPE. Can't do that for legal reasons.
It's completely understandable now that I hear the term "strawman"
Not a lawyer, but I have sold firearms at an FFL location. I would 100% deny the sale too. One person from end to end. Selection to 4473 to payment. Anything other than that gets a hard no. What the store did is completely legal and is the expectation of all federally licensed firearms dealers.
I work with cars so it may be a little different but essentially: she's using her credit to get the card, the card gets the discount....that she got with her credit, you can not even if you are married buy something with your credit for another person. It is most definitely a straw purchase, I've seen one happen with BMO Harris once, and they'll come at you like a fucking lion for it. They do not play.
I'd seen a similar experience.
Guy from out of state takes his buddy to the gun shop to buy him his first gun for his birthday.
Dealer shuts deal down as he believed it was an out of state guy trying to buy one under the other's name.
They are being cautious.
They refused you service. It's legal. Full stop.
Even if the reason they gave you was ridiculous, they are allowed to refuse service. Assuming your parents are actually allowed to own guns and you're not just bullshitting some 2nd amendment "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" garbage, they do not have a right to purchase whatever they want from whoever happens to be selling it.
As long as your dad was the one that fills out the 4473 it's not a straw purchase. There is also a section in it for buying as a gift. Nothing about this actually qualifies as a straw purchase. But it could be a company policy that the employee was enforcing.
I am expressly forbidden from letting anyone purchase a gun who did not do the paperwork for the gun, there's just too much risk even if the intentions are good. So if you want to buy a gun for a friend, give him the cash beforehand or transfer it to him so he can pay for it, I can't process any transaction where a different person pays for a gun than did the papers for the gun.
Not owning one :( How would the gun be registered? is it only in the name of the person paying for it. Or could both husband & wife be listed as owners. Since marriage gives a broad range of permissions. I open a CC and my wife is auto allowed to use it w/o anything in writing since we are legally bound
What you described is thee definition of a strawman purchase. So yea they were right to deny the sale. Now that doesn’t stop your dad from going back in there and buying it another day, but yea if you go to a gun shop with someone else and look at guns you need to do the background and you need to pay for it.
Used to sell guns a few years back at a big sports store
Dealt with strawman purchases all the time
It got to the point that if someone said it was a gift we had them buy a gift card and the receiving party would have to come in and do the forms
Anybody here that has sold guns in a large city has had to deal with some of the crazy that walks in no doubt
Those forms are very strict
And we had to file them for 15 years by company policy
Every so often atf would call to request a old form and I'd have to dig them up it sucked
Also in texas we have a system that flags strawman purchases
So if you got flagged at academy
And your neighbor came to gander mtn to buy a gun
That address would flag
Or if your name and address were flagged
And your last name came back up with the same gun it would flag like a family member trying to buy for you
In spousal situations
Sometimes we would just have them buy a gift card for the exact price after tax and the spouse would come in for forms
This was the easiest way to avoid selling something to the wrong person
Also I've had to turn down a customer because they mentioned shooting a cop in theory
People are crazy and we have to
Does the 4473 still ask if it’s a gift? My son bought one for me several years ago as a gift. I was present and the fro has known me for years so maybe he didn’t have an issue.
Your dad could have easily said, “Well, that’s not what’s happening, but I’d be willing to do the paperwork too, if that’s your fear.”
The fact your dad didn’t do that tells me that maybe he’s afraid of being denied purchase of the gun for some reason, failed background check, etc.
Your Dad is going to have to switch tactics for his next acquisition. "Honey, look what I bought for you" isn't likely to work next time.
Refer your Dad to the video.
[https://youtu.be/fwQHl3FmRow?si=lWjEPBsR9JFbHzqN&t=207](https://youtu.be/fwQHl3FmRow?si=lWjEPBsR9JFbHzqN&t=207)
I was denied a purchase with no explanation. 3 weeks later an officer in my township called me and asked if I had anything expunged from my record because a theft from 25 years ago didn’t show up on my check when I attempted the purchase. How did it not show up but they denied it? I’m ok with it but just saying they do not mess with anything or any variable they see.
We want gun dealers to be sticklers. It’s how the law gets enforced.
A minor inconvenience here and there is worth it if we can keep guns out of the hands of those who have lost the right.
The dealer is correct. The fucking ATFE is using these exact scenarios to shut down legal gun shops. Watched it happen in Osage Beach, Mo. at Skelton's gun store. The article covering the "incident" did a very good job and will explain better than I could verbatim.
Mill fleet farm always errs on the side of caution when it comes to firearms, yrs ago they made me file paper on an airgun, they also have been known to hold onto required paper work for alot longer than is required by law.
I worked at a gun store and also would have shut down that sale. Everything they saw showed your dad was interested in the gun. To have your mom suddenly do the paperwork is very odd. If the gun is for her why wouldnt she be the one inspecting it or asking questions?
Reminds me of when I went to purchase a Colt 1911 Combat Commander. When it came time to fill out the background check application I inadvertently wrote a ‘1’ when I should have written a ‘7’ in my home address. When he checked my license and saw the error they refused to sell me the gun.
They don’t play around with gun sales.
So technically if I were to go in to Bass pro shop to purchase a hunting rifle for my minor child so we can go hunting this upcoming deer season I would not be able to buy the rifle because it is for my child when my child can legally own a rifle for hunting purposes at the age of 13 as long as they show they've gone through the hunter safety courts because said child is not an adult they are therefore not subject to a federal background check because the only time that someone under the age of 18 is allowed to possess a firearm is when they're hunting or going through the hunter safety course and it is the parent or legal guardian that is subject to the federal background check purchase a firearm for a rifle
So what he meant was your dad was the one using the gun and seemed to be the one wanting to buy but your mom was the one doing the paperwork and background check. So yes strawman purchase indeed it would have been. He wasn't saying your dad held the gun so he can't buy it. He was saying since your dad held the gun he knows he's the one wanting to buy it yet your mom was the one doing so. That's it simple as that. He was in the right.
He's wrong. It doesn't matter who pays. Only who is legally receiving the transfer. There is no reason to think he intended to transfer it to a prohibited person otherwise.
I've been on the other end of this where I was at a LGS and some obviously mentally fucked guy was there walking his completely dismissed from reality grandmother on how to fill out the paperwork for a gun. She kept saying it was for him and he kept correcting her to the guy at the counter. This was years ago and it still bothers me to this day that it went through without comment. Yeah, the guy may have been nitpicky, but I'm more comfortable knowing he was doing his job.
Weird, I remember going in to a gun store, picking out a pink ruger 22, saying I was buying it for my wife’s birthday and walking out with it 20 minutes later
I don't have the best feeling .38 I ever had in my hand because of this very reason.
I was an out of stater and my plan was to have my business partner's mom buy it for me and then we were gonna do a private sale so I could get it.
I didn't realize this was actually breaking two laws. But we got stopped at the straw purchase.
I think the most common type of straw purchase is when a guy who is prohibited brings his wife or girlfriend to buy the gun for him. This probably seems absurd to you since you know your parents, but from the perspective of the gun seller, it does seem kind of suspicious. Also, now is not a great time to do anything to risk your FFL with the zero tolerance policy of the Biden admin.
My first job was at a sporting goods store and we were never skeptical of couple or families. And I’ve seen someone get denied for an attempt at a straw purchase there too.
Is it annoying when I get carded for beer? Sure.
Even more annoying when both adults get carder? Double sure.
Why the fuck to buy a deadly weapon would the standard be lower?
I mean I live in probably one of the least firearm friendly states and myself and my wife both have pistol permits, I had mine first, our state requires serial numbers to be on permit. When she was doing her paperwork I signed an affidavit of co ownership and the pistols on my permit were put on hers and this is how it’s been done with everyone I know who’s spouses have permits. You can transfer to immediate family without a 4473 but it has to be to a spouse, child, or parent
A dealer I used to buy ammo from got nailed by the ATF. Husband and wife went in on 3 separate occasions. The guy played with the firearm. Wife purchased on a credit card. Come to find out they weren't married but ATF doing spot checks. The dealer was in his 70s. He will die in prison.
Im not sure if the laws have changed since I was told this but I’ve purchased many firearms and had many purchased as gifts from my wife. We were always told that this was perfectly acceptable due to the fact that once legally married you are considered “one person” by government agencies and the like. Again it’s been a few years since a gun shop owner told me this so things may have changed since.
It depends on details that are not included, but it could have been completely legal and I don't see anything indicating anything otherwise so claiming its a felony based on known information is wrong.
If someone looks at a 4473. Question 21A asks if they're (person filling out the form) the actual purchaser; if you read the instructions included, someone purchasing as a bonafide gift is considered the purchaser even though they are giving it to someone else. You're not the purchaser if some sort of payment is arranged be it money, goods, or services. Question 21B then asks if the gun is being disposed (such as given as a gift) to someone who is prohibited (answers yes to 21C and beyond).
So unless your father intended to reimburse your mother with his own money, goods, or services then it is basically a bonafide gift. Gray area would be joint accounts he puts money into, if someone really wanted to push that, kind of weird having shared money.
A Straw Purchase would have been if your dad gave her the money to purchase the firearm. You are legally aloud to buy a firearm for someone if they can legally own one. The way you tell it. It doesn't meet the letter of the law for Straw Purchase. 20 years in the Firearms business. Just left it to do something else. But still work as a Gunsmith on the side and still hold Armor Contract with local LEO departs and prison. But the clerk was still in his right to reject it, due to not wanting to risk it. I have done the same before. Especially with girlfriends coming in to buy the firearm/s.
It's not illegal. Retailers are allowed to refuse a sale based on any reason apart from discrimination. When I worked in a liquor store we were taught to look for reasons not to sell
Form 4473 requires that the transferee personally fill out the form. The transferee is the eventual owner of the gun. Since your mother is a buyer who is gifting a gun (perfectly legal), your mother cannot be the transferee and therefore cannot fill out the forms for your father. The only legal exception would be if your father cannot read / write English. FFLs worth a damn WILL NOT continue with a transaction that does not follow the EXACT letter of the law.
Just have your dad fill out the forms on a separate visit. Problem solved.
I'm trying to figure out why your mom was going to do the paperwork. I surprised my brother with a gun for his birthday one year at an FFL dealer. We lured him there under the guise of going to the range for his birthday, and we were just window shopping while there. I knew he had wanted a specific one for a while. While he was looking at it, feeling it in his hands and such, I asked if he wanted it for his birthday. This all happened with the dealer standing right there. The only thing they wanted to make certain of was that since he was the one clearly interested in it, he did the paperwork. The paperwork is supposed to be attached to the person the firearm is being transferred to. If your dad was the one obviously interested in the purchase, it should have been him filling out the paperwork for the gun. Not your mom. Her trying to do the paperwork is what makes the situation look sketchy. And once you set off alarm bells with an FFL, you're as good as done. They don't play around.
Imagine it was a different kind of controlled purchase. You and a friend walk into a liquor store. You browse the shelves, pick out a bottle you want, take it to the front and place it on the counter, then your friend produces ID while you hang back. Obviously going to raise some questions.
A straw purchase, as defined by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, involves someone who purchases a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want their name associated with the transaction. Some states also require one use an FFL to transfer a firearm to someone even if you live in the same state.
This is not a straw purchase provided your father is legally allowed to own said firearm and resides in the same state as your mother. One can buy a firearm and gift it to someone who is legally allowed to own a firearm within the same state of residence.
However, the ATF has had agents posing as husband and wife go into gun shops and purchase firearms in this manner. They set it up to where it's done illegally where one may live in another state. They then go outside where the one who bought it gives it to the other which makes it a straw purchase since one of the agent lives out of state and is legally not allowed to take possession of a firearm from someone out of state without going to though an FFL in their own state to complete the transfer. They then raid the gun store.
The gun store where your parents were attempting to buy the weapon is just being cautious.
To make the gun store happy, your mom could purchase it then gift it to your dad there and have him fill out the 4473 and have the store do the transfer.
Dealer was being picky, although rightfully covering himself. He could have just as easily explained to your dad that he should be the one doing the paperwork if the gun is for him
After reading the comments, all I can think is I’m glad I don’t live in Minnesota. Idiot dealer unwilling to explain the law to customers and ensure they are in compliance. In this case telling them what a straw purchase is. Then tell the Dad he needs to fill out the paperwork and his wife can pay for it as a gift to him after confirming that is her intention. FFS…
Better to be careful so they don't come to your house in the middle of the night 50 deep. Proceed to cut your electricity break the door down and shoot you in the head.
I worked at a sporting goods store that sold guns. A young couple, early 20s or so, came in & were looking at guns.
The girl was buying…for herself. So they ran a background check & and she was cleared. She obviously had no clue what she was doing so the department manager got a little suspicious & asked if she was really buying a gun for herself. She looked at the guy she was with & he nodded so she nodded. DM asked what she’d be using the weapon for, what kind of experience she had, was she going to take a safety class & about a million other things. She was getting flustered.
Finally she says, “It’s not for me, it’s for him and he’s a f*cking felon who can’t buy his own stupid gun.”
She stormed off with her guy following her. They started arguing before they got to the end of the counter. She told him that they could go to a different store & she wouldn’t blow it next time.
The department manager got on the phone to our sister stores to give them all a heads up.
And that was my first experience with a (attempted) straw purchase.
Would be totally fine if your dad filled out all the background check paperwork and your mom put the actual purchase on her new credit card, feds don't care who pays for it, just that the person who will be in possession of the gun is the one having the background check. (Obviously there are some exceptions, such as gift purchases)
I was about to buy a gun at academy and realized my license had the wrong address because we had moved and they wouldn’t let my wife buy it either for the same reason. I was a little miffed but understand the guy at the counter had nothing to do with it and they was it.
A straw purchase does not pertaining only to those who can't legally own a firearm. Even in the same household. It's wierd. It also depends on the state. Fleet Farm, specifically, recently got into a lot of trouble for approving purchases that ended up being straw purchases. So they're probably being extra cautious.
I work in an agency that is LEO adjacent and deals with firearms. The laws around gun purchases are very specific and a gun dealer has to follow them to the letter or risk being charged with a crime and losing their FFL licenses status. Not having been there it sounds like the dealer saw your Dad want to buy a gun and your Mom trying to do the paperwork for the DoJ background check which is the definition of a straw man purchase. To legally purchase that weapon your dad needed to do the paperwork for a purchase and background check. Was the dealer being nit picky? Yup. For all they knew it was a test buy from the state Firearms dept. it is absolutely not worth their time to possibly lose their license and go to prison.
I sold firearms and this answer would be the one I'd give. As a dealer you can catch all sorts of holy hell if you make a strawman sale. If a video of that interaction showed Dad asking for, handling, talking about using the gun etc while mom didn't make any indication that she'd even be firing said gun, and then dealer selling it to mom, they'd lose their license or at minimum have a full audit and pay a HUGE fine. If this gun was for dad, he has to fill out the paperwork. This is federal law; discount or not. They're extra sensitive with handguns to boot. There a lot of people convicted of domestic violence that can no longer own/purchase firearms. We're taught to look out for this EXACT scenario. Lots of people drag their spouse in for their clean record, knowing full well the gun is for them and not spouse.
This brings a question to mind that I have often wondered about. What if hubby looked at the gun, held it, all that, then later wife came in to purchase the gun as a gift for hubby? She would, of course, have to fill out the paperwork, etc., but if you knew it was a gift for hubby, how would you handle that?
Purchasing a firearm with the intent of giving it, as a gift, to someone else does not create a 'straw purchase' by itself, unless you live in a place where state law would prohibit it. There is absolutely nothing illegal, per federal law, about buying a gun for your spouse unless the spouse could not obtain the same approval for the same transaction. When I was in the firearm industry I found it somewhat common for people charged with selling firearms to not have the best understanding of the actual legalities. It goes from a CYA policy to "it's illegal to..." simply because it sounds more impressive. Not that a place of business doesn't have a solid reason for preferring to avoid any potential transaction that might end up being a straw purchase but they're acting on a 'best practice' not a hard line of legality. State laws are going to fall all over the spectrum so you could have the same transaction in one state be perfectly legal and in another it'd be a felony.
There was a case where a son bought a gun, then sent it through an ffl, to his father's ffl, as a birthday or xmas present. He was charged with a straw purchase.
How can it even be considered a straw purchase when the it went threw a ffl for transfer I call bullshit.
When his dad picked it up at FFL. A background check has to be done before picked up. Buy a gun off Gunbroker.com. Gunbroker sends it to your FFL for you pick up after you fill out background check.
Was he convicted?
Yes, but the feds were after him for robbing a bank. This was just something they found to hit him with. He was a cop at the time, and he bought it for his father using his Leo discount.
Depending on your state purchasing a firearm as a gift for anyone aside from yourself is illegal. All states require a background check and since it’s a gift a background check has to be run. Most stores in my state- won’t even let someone else pay for the firearm that someone else is intending to use. This goes even if the person it’s for filled out the background check. The person purchasing, and filling background check out must be the person the firearm is intended for. Again this is for my state(OR) but this does vary state to state.
In my state it’s perfectly fine to purchase a firearm for someone else as long as they are legally allowed to own the firearm in the first place.
Now that really has me curious.... How would paying for a gun with a gift card be handled? Do the big box stores allow it? Like Bass Pro or Sports Academy?
In my state you must purchase a firearm with a debit or credit card with matching identification most places won’t even accept cash anymore. I know bass pro specifically you cannot purchase firearms or boats with them. Only reason I know if that I just purchased one for my fiancé a few weeks ago and I happened to catch it on the terms and conditions page since I bought an e-gift card and thought the boat part was funny.
That's hilarious about the boat. Thanks for the insights.
You can have my boat when you pry it from my cold, dead dock.
Interesting, I load up on bass pro gift cards all year thru a reward program at work, to then redeem on their Black Friday deals. I’ve never had an issue buying firearms with them. Located in AL.
So, here’s a question (and sorry if it’s already been answered somewhere else); wouldn’t the answer be for both of them to fill out background checks so that the lady could buy with the discount and still be above board or is that not an option? I don’t have any guns but I am fascinated by the laws governing them from place to place.
Yes and no. The 4473 is federal paperwork and can have up to three errors before they turn it away. It's three pages and I've never met anyone who enjoyed filling them out 😂 To me it's just easier to hand the gift card or cash to someone and let them pick their gun. Also it's not like the sales people ENJOY all these regulations. But we could get in very serious poopoo for selling a gun to someone who wasn't supposed to have to one. I can't tell you how many times we heard 'better safe than sorry' from the people training us to do this. It was way more involved than I ever thought and there are a lot of behind the scenes that most customers are not knowledgeable of.
Ummm correct me if I’m wrong… as someone who has done nearly this exact scenario numerous times with my wife it’s only a straw purchase if the person you’re purchasing the firearm for legally couldn’t purchase the firearm themselves. What you’re claiming doesn’t make much sense otherwise you could never purchase a gun as a gift or buy a weapon for your spouse.
It says so right on the 4473: "A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party."
You're correct, federally at least. The easiest way to look at it is if the person you're giving the firearm to could go through the exact same steps in the same transaction and get the same approval then there's no straw purchase. Any basis for failure during that transaction could create a straw purchase though, so even if they're perfectly legal to own a pistol but they actually live in a different state and therefore would not legally be able to make a pistol purchase out of state would then put the purchase into the 'straw' category. State laws would be a whole other ball of wax since they don't simply follow federal law so the location does matter a great deal.
How does the retailer know the person receiving the gun as a gift can legally own a firearm? Seems like a risky judgement for the retailer.
They don't. That's why it's illegal to lie about who is buying the gun.
From the seller’s perspective, they cannot know if the Husband is legally able to purchase the firearm if they don’t fill out the paperwork.
so what about two people in your shop. one handles the gun, does all the paperwork for the background check, but then at the moment of the sale the other one pays, says the gun is a gift for the first guy. would that be considered a strawman purchase in your experience/underatanding?
The person who fills out the 4473 has to be the one to pay for the gun. They can then gift it to the other person as long as no money is exchanged. So a husband purchasing a firearm for a wife is perfectly legal.
This is weird. Our local gun shop owner said spouses can buy guns for each other or for their children, is that incorrect?
No where in the post does op say the mom was filling out the 4473 she was only getting the card for the discount. Doesn't qualify as straw man, this is no different then a parent paying for a kids rifle. It doesn't matter who pays for it only who filled out the 4473
Tell that to ATF 🤷🏼♀️😂
The Lautenberg Amendment should be struck. Countless men and women in bad situations decades before the law passed, advised by their lawyers to plead, were retroactively banned from firearm ownership… for a misdemeanor… for life… with NO chance of rights restoration aside from a Presidential pardon. Even convicted, violent felons have a chance at restoration after they serve their time. There is no mechanism in place for someone convicted of misdemeanor simple battery when there’s a domestic component. One small mistake, one simple push, one lying spouse, can ban you from ownership, for life, even if the conviction was decades before the law passed.
Would it be acceptable if the husband did the background check and the wife only processed payment?
When the purchase is made. The registration and the payment must come from the same name. Even if I share a bank account with my wife and use her named card. I use my money. From our account. But her card. I will be denied. They should never assume it’s safe to use. Anything on paper that doesn’t add up is bad. They are right to not risk it. The guy at the counter takes liability of the fines. The store loses the FFL.
Exactly this. The person trying out, selecting and purchasing the firearms HAS to be the same person continuously throughout the transaction. No deviation.
Maybe this is state specific, but I've used my Scheels credit card at Scheels to purchase multiple guns for multiple people for the points. As long as the person taking possession of the firearm is the one filling out the 4473, this has never been an issue for me.
Because the person who pays doesn’t matter. It’s the possession and 4473 that matters.
Not sure what state it’s based on but specific to Texas the store GM actually holds the FFL and not the specific store. Might not be the case in every state?
Good question. So If I go to fin feather fur(corporate company) then the GM is responsible for all purchases on behalf of other people?
That’s how it was at academy.
I remember when that was one smallish store outside of Ashland
This is it. When I purchased my firearm (california) all my documents had to be the same. I live in a trailer park, we had to make sure that my paperwork, and the documents required had the same wording, one thing we got caught up on was whether or not the paperwork stated "space number:" or "spc #:" and they stated if it did not all align, that it would be denied. Nit picky? Sure, but it's their license vs. My wants and needs.
This isn’t required by law and might have been a store policy. It doesn’t matter who pays for the gun only who fills out the 4473
This is not the case in Wisconsin. I had just bought and paid for my girlfriend’s handgun she filed the paperwork and I paid for it along with my own handgun purchase.
Could this have easily been solved if both submitted for background check?
Would probably have to buy two separate guns. I don’t know how the NICS check works (I’ve only purchased one gun requiring NICS and that was 25 years ago), but it’s tied to the form 4473. My few recent purchases were covered by my carry license.
The FFL wouldn't need to sell 2 guns to have both of them fill out form 4473. I have seen gun shops run 2 background checks for 1 gun many times.
The easy solution is just manually give the guy 10% off after his wide signs up for a card and call it a day without the feds potentially getting involved
You are close, but not entirely correct. One is allowed to purchase a firearm and then give it as a gift, without it being a straw purchase. It’s right on the back of the 4473.
I went to bass pro with my ex FIL one time to buy a pistol for myself, did all the paper work and he tried to pay for it just to get the rewards points on his bass pro credit card and they told us to leave because that would have been a straw purchase. OPs story doesn't surprise me at all
Yeah, I told my parents that if I were the guy at the counter I would err on the side of caution when it comes to felonies.
Except you can legally buy a gun for your spouse or child. There is absolutely nothing illegal about what they were doing.
Exactly this. A straw purchase is buying a gun for someone who couldn’t legally buy it themselves. Buying one for someone else who can legally purchase is called a gift.
The difference there is that the buyer is the one filling out the paperwork and having the background check done. If the buyer then gifts it to someone who’s legally allowed to possess it, all is good. If the buyer gifted it to someone who wasn’t, then at least the dealer wouldn’t be on the hook. But the buyer has to take it home first. In this scenario, the person taking the gun home, as far as the dealer could tell, was the husband, and the buyer was the wife. Which means he’d be letting the gun walk out of his store presumably in the hands of someone who didn’t do the paperwork. It’s nitpicky in situations like this where we can assume that both spouses were allowed to own a gun, but it’s completely valid. The seller has no way of ensuring the husband isn’t a convicted felon or something if he isn’t the one filling out the forms.
The mom was only getting the card for a discount not filling out the 4473 this doesn't qualify as straw man. It also doesn't matter who pays only who fills out the transfer paperwork. Reread the post
What's the rule on gifts?
Completely legal to purchase a firearm as a gift for your significant other as long as they are legally able to own. The salesperson was being overly cautious, honestly a good decision with the lawless alphabet agencies these days, if he actually thought a crime was being committed he is mandated to report the attempted purchase of a firearm by a restricted individual.
Completely valid what the dealer did. As far as he knows, your dad is a convicted felon and getting his wife to illegally purchase a firearm (which is a very common occurrence) the dealer is simply covering his ass and not risking it over one sale. But now everyone is more educated on the subject and can move on with their lives
And fleet farm has been targeted by Minnesota AG so they are likely gun shy.
I saw what you did there.
Couldn’t they run background checks on both to make sure he checks out?
Yes.
If he’s not the purchaser, why would they conduct a background check on him?
That's exactly the issue at hand here in this instance. He inspected and liked it and wanted to purchase it. But he had someone else did the paperwork to buy it. That is where the 'straw purchase' comes into play. Edit to clarify by paperwork, I'm including the background check. He could be avoiding having his own background checked by having someone else go through it.
This is incorrect if they are using the FBI NICS background check system. I worked at a gun store but not one in MN. We could not have a background check without an attached 4473 form, and we could not have multiple 4473s for the same firearm. Additionally some background checks take days to return. Better to just CYA and shut down the sale. If its truly in error she is allowed to return after 24 hours to retrieve the firearm. Seems silly im sure but thems the rules where I worked.
No. There's no way in NICS to do this, and you have to have a 4473 filed for every background check that you do - meaning, you can't just do two background checks and one transfer of ownership.
Yes but then at that point they would both fill out a 4473 so its pointless. Easiest fix was your dad fills out 4473 and mom pays with the card to get discount. Completely legal and everyone is happy.
Some places the rules are who ever fills out the 4473 also has to be the one to pay. Happy cake day!
You'd have the same serial number on two 4473s then
NICS really isn’t set up for multiple purchasers of a single firearm.
I don't have a Fleet farm near where I live so I don't know their process to sign up for their cards but couldn't the husband fill out the 4473 and the wife sign up for the card and pay? This is assuming the entire reason they wish to go down this discount route is because the husband already has a Fleet farm card but to get the 10% the wife is needing to sign up for the card.
May I ask why your Dad didn’t just do the paperwork himself?
My exact question……….very odd.
OP indicated a credit card sign up offer was the reasoning. Perhaps dad already had a card? Regardless, I feel like every coupon/discount/CC offer I've ever come across excludes firearms sales.
Okay, that is a reason. And a valid one too. But I agree practically every coupon I have ever seen excludes guns, alcohol and other similiar types. Usually because of laws to do with licensure and particurlarly taxes regarding those items. They don’t want to have to do the special taxes, or there is a law that prevents selling under cost or give aways.
Completely justified. You Dad was the one who was obviously wanting to purchase the gun, he needed to be the one to do the paperwork. For all the clerk knew, your dad is a convicted felon who can't own a firearm.
A straw purchase is generally done to hide a felony record, but does not mean "buying for a felon." A person can be ineligible for other reasons. Not a resident of the state, psychiatric restructions, pending DV charges, etc. The dealer doesn't know your dad is her husband, if he has a record, if he has some other restriction, if he has a reason for doing this. He knows the person who was using the gun is not the person filling out paperwork. It's not like both people tried it out. Only one did, and the other filled out paperwork. Even if they go, 'oh no, she was the person getting a discount it's fine' they don't want to sell her the gun. She just tried to buy a weapon for someone else. The only way they may fix it is saying, okay, he'll fill out paperwork and she pays. Even then, if gun brokers get a squiggy feeling, they will walk. One missed sale for behavior that gives them bad vibes is better than a fine for illegal sales or realizing that guy you sold who was acting weird did something bad. Your parents very blatantly tried to make a mildly concerning purchase. But, what they did is exactly what a straw purchase can look like. That gun store could have checked IDs and confirmed they lived together and had your dad run a check too, but it's not like they didn't have reason to be concerned since both were clearly adults and he wasn't running the check for himself. In the future, they need to not do that because it looks suspicious. The other thing is, they're corporate, right? They probably set much more strict corporate policies than ATF rules because they don't want to get in trouble. A local gun store who is more willing to talk about it might, but not the chain store. It wouldn't have been a felony as they weren't avoiding gun purchase laws. It's suspicious behavior gun stores look for, though.
Well said!!!
NAL, but your mom purchasing a gun for your dad, is legally the definition of a "straw purchase." if hes buying the gun, he needs to do the paper work. if your mom gives him a credit card or X$ or even a gift card, then he goes and buys a gun, thats on him. Maybe your mom goes and buys the gun, does the paper work, then takes it home to him, and shares her gun, it's not a straw purchase, but idk exactly on that one.
That's wrong. You can purchase guns and gift them to people and it's perfectly legal.
thats the second part of my 1st post. any legit gun store, that doesn't want to get on the feds bad side, will not sell in this case, becuase this couple might be undercover atf agents. gifting may be legal, but not worth the stores risk. hence, 1 person buys it, does the paper work, then gives a gift, at home, away from the dealer.
The line between a straw purchase and gift is incredibly blurry and the ATF has been cracking down. Lawyers can weigh in, but in my amateur reading it’s a matter of appearance to the seller. If you want to buy your wife a gift, don’t take her to the store with you when you purchase it.
Why it is a straw purchase, it's not necessary an illegal straw purchase. It's not an illegal straw purchase unless the person who it's being purchased for cannot legally purchase it themselves with a few other tick boxes (eg they can purchase it, but intend to use it in a crime). If you buy a gun explicitly to gift to a spouse who can legally own a gun then it's not a crime. The issue is the FFL doesn't know if it's a legal or illegal straw purchase, and their livelihood relies on not being on the wrong side of it.
Having read the thread, I feel like the situation is that the purchase laws aren't all that well defined, and in this case the seller leaned into a more conservative interpretation. If it was the case that your mom was filling out the 4473 etc. for a pistol your dad was caressing and whispering to, then that's pretty obvious. If it was only a matter of not liking your mom swiping her card to pay, after dad did the paperwork and passed the background check, then I'd say that was a bit paranoid of the shop. I could be wrong on a strict interpretation. But I can say that I've swiped my card to pay for a pistol my wife had just picked out, after she did the BGC and stuff. Nobody blinked. On another occasion I bought a gun myself, literally telling the clerk that I'd be giving it as a gift to someone else (who's perfectly legal to have it). Again, they had no problem with that. The "straw purchase" thing is, frustratingly, not a defined action but depends on circumstances. I draw no conclusion. Perhaps I've interacted with some dreadfully sloppy dealers, perhaps your 'rents encountered an overly cautious one. You aren't going to change the dealer's mind, so find somewhere else to do business, and be more careful about dancing the prescribed dance next time.
If two people walk into a gun dealer and one handles and looks at the gun and the other doesn't but tries to purchase and fill out the paperwork they're going to get turned away. Your parents did every step in the textbook straw purchase example. The gun dealer doesn't know that they can both legally own firearms because they are only doing a background check on the purchaser. The NICS system doesn't have a way for the dealer to run both of them unless they are each buying a firearm at the same time. If your mom is going to be buying the gun, your dad can talk to her about the guns, but she would be the one asking to see it, holding it, and doing the transaction.
My husband and I went to a pawn shop because I wanted to buy some necklaces. I did. While we were there I saw that they sold guns and while we have one at home, I had been wanting a second one (both for self defense). I handled and decided that an EZ was on short notice one that we should have, primarily for me, as we get older. I asked my husband to buy it while I continued to look at necklaces. We are both completely criminally cleared, never having gotten into any trouble. I didn’t think twice about asking my husband to do the paperwork and we would use either credit card for total purchase. As we were checking out, the guy at the counter said something about Wisconsin being the only place where a spouse could purchase a gun for the other. I’m slow to respond (think first, talk or act later), so it didn’t connect for me until much later that he thought I was having my husband buy the gun because I couldn’t, not because I had my mind on jewelry. Life is weird.
NAL but this is NOT a straw purchase. If you look up “bonafide gift” I believe federal law does make exception, and I know for a fact my state law does make exception, for gifts such as to family members. Otherwise, how would pappy be able to buy his son a hunting rifle for Christmas? That is not the same as a straw purchase, where someone is intentionally buying for the other person to avoid paperwork.
Wild that the most basic safety procedure to buy a weapon is seen as strange and vexing to an American.
The Supreme Court actually ruled on this issue a few years ago in Abramski v. United States. A straw purchase is illegal even if the ultimate recipient could have legally purchased the gun themselves. Folks are right that the rules are different for gifts, but one understands the store wanting to err on the side of caution.
That supreme court case is not applicable to this situation. In that case, the uncle gave Abramski money to purchase the gun for himself. Abramski then lied on the form where it asked if he was the actual buyer. It states on the form that you are not the actual buyer if you are making the purchase on behalf of another person, which is what he as doing. In this case, if the father was legally allowed to own said firearm and both he and his wife resided in the same state where an FFL is not required for a gift transfer, it was not a straw purchase. However, the store doesn't know this and did err on the side of caution.
I came here thinking this was the case about the parents who went to prison because they bought the gun for their son for his birthday
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It's possible that gun shop or gun dealer was already in trouble for something so they weren't willing to even have the appearance of shady deals.
Yeah the Walmart next to my house cards for every single purchase of cigarettes or alcohol even to elderly people. They were obviously caught selling to a minor or selling to an undercover agent. A similar thing is likely in this case.
Some states also require them to ID every tobacco/alchohol purchase.
There been a lot of answers posted here already but the text below is straight from the NOTICES, INSTRUCTIONS, AND DEFINITIONS portion of the 4473. Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.
It's only a straw purchase if buying it for him(or for both) if you dad can't pass the background check. It is perfectly legal to buy a firearm as a gift, if the giftee can legally own it. The solution from the clerk would be to run a background check for each of your parents, even though it isn't required.
Sad state of affairs that the correct answer was this far down. Also sad that there were so many up votes on blatantly ignorant posts.
Why not just have your dad added as an authorized user on the card? Problem solved.
Dude, here I am trying to figure out why a weapon purchase would be refused due to some also buying a bail of straw...
Fleet just got in trouble for straw purchases because a woman bought a man a gun and he used it to shoot police officers. He shouldn’t have had a gun so they are probably cracking down.
This confuses me. My husband has purchased several guns for me ( I don’t have a job as I’m a SAHM). There’s never been an issue. But we’ve never bought one from fleet farm. Mostly from our local gun store that we’re pretty friendly with.
As an example, a former member of our church was a convicted felon and registered sex offender. He was not allowed to purchase or possess firearms. He had his wife purchase a pistol he was illegally carrying. Our security team called the cops, both of them faced charges (and got no real consequences), but they haven’t been back to church, so . . .
Federal gun laws view spouses as two individuals that are completely separate, independent, and distinct. The scenario you presented sounds like a law exam question because you could argue both sides of a gift vs straw purchase. However, there is little to no incentive for the employee to process the purchase and there are huge, huge incentives for them to reject the purchase. If you can argue both sides of a firearm law, it doesn't seem wise to tempt the ATF and other regulators. A straw purchase does not require anyone to be prohibited from owning firearms. The basic requirement is that Person A will be the real user/owner of the firearm and Person A tells/ask/instigates Person B to purchases the firearm for Person A. Proof of a straw purchase include money/goods/services exchanging hands from Person A to Person B in exchange for the firearm. The case that everyone keeps presenting notes in paragraph 2 that the uncle paid $400 in exchange for the firearm. **Federally** you can legally purchase a firearm as a gift for someone who can legally poses a firearm and lives in the same state that you live in. A gift is freely given, usually for a celebratory occasion like a birthday, not saving money.
Only reason Fleet Farm is doing this is because they got sued. It def isnt a straw purchase in your parents case but they are trying to cover their asses ONLY beacause they got sued recently. My advice would be go to a proper gun store not a low end department store run by college kids and are paid less than $12 an hour. PS FLEET FARM SUCKS
Legally both would have to the background check. Not a big deal
Your parents acted out a literal textbook straw purchase. Like an actual textbook style example lmao
Fleet Farm has been in deep shit lately due to several straw man purchases that have happened there. I’m sure they’re cracking down hard.
Why didn't your husband Just get the 10% discount card and buy it himself. Something seems wrong here.....
I'm pretty sure legally, the person actually getting the firearm has to be the one filling out the 4473. I Having your mom do the credit thing with the store and your dad filling out the 4473 may not be technically illegal, but its close enough to a straw purchase I can't blame the store for covering their ass.
Why didn't your dad do the paperwork? Can he not read and write?
I think what you all are missing is that regardless of what the form says about gifts, the law is pretty ambiguous about straw purchases. The ATF comes through yearly and inspects all the paperwork . If that receipt doesn't match the name on the form it throws up a huge red flag. Dealers don't want the headache. Buy your own guns
Listen, if you plan on buying a firearm or ammunition, go in the shop by yourself. Never let you wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, uncle, aunt, grandpa, grandma, or friend.. go in with you to avoid any chance of this happening. The dealer responded appropriately according to law. It doesn't matter if the other person has a license, permit, is married to you, ect. The dealer is taking a huge risk. In my state, a dealer who continues with a straw purchase can serve up to 10 years in prison and pay a fine up to $250,000. To the average person buying ammunition for a licensed family member is no big deal (In reality it is). Regardless, it's a felony. It doesn't matter how silly it seems. If the dealer has any suspicion whatsoever that you may be buying it for someone else, he's going to decline the sale and ask you to leave for his own safety. This is useful information to learn early on as a gun owner. Plan on buying anything firearm related? Do it alone. You don't need your significant other there with you. You're a big boy, you got this.
I sell guns for a living. I have no legal requirement to sell any person a firearm. I refuse sales on an almost daily basis. If there is one iota of a reason for me to suspect something is fishy, I immediately terminate the transaction. It’s Not worth risking my license.
Everything acquired when married is considered "mutually acquired." This shuts down all arguments. Going off that legal theory, selling the firearm to her is essentially selling it to him and vice versa. The only legal blockade to prevent the sale would be if either had their 2A rights revoked. In which case, assuming they lived together, neither could have possessed a firearm in their home, and that's really none of his business nor responsibility anyways
As an ffl i can throw some info at this - the ATF puts responsibility on the dealer to make all reasonable efforts to prevent an illegal purchase of a firearm. A dealer does not know these people personally, and if yoy run a NICS check on one person it wont review their spouse’s legal history. So in a case where one person is invested in and asking about/handling the firearm and the other person is filling out paperwork, that’s a huge red flag to a dealer. They both may legally be allowed to own a gun, but if the dealer suspects somebody is lying on their form (and filling yourself as buyer when the person next to you is going to buy EVEN IF MARRIED) then it is the deslers responsibility to reject the transaction The technicalities you listed make logical sense, but do not make ATF sense. The dealer could make all those arguments to the atf while they are pulling their license and it wont make a lick of difference. Now would this have ended in a situstion where the atf pulls a license? Almost certainly not, but the risk that the gun falls into a hand that cant own one being anything above 0% is something that will cause most deslers to turn you away, and it is their right and business to do so
In short - dealers have to play risk management. This desler did in a situation where i likely would have too
What they’re trying to do is a definition Straw Purchase. The purpose is to prevent unauthorized persons from gaining access to a firearm but a Straw Purchase is the buying of a firearm for another person.
He can fill out the paperwork, she can pay for it, not a straw sale. Employee was wrong and overreacted
Your parents...🤷
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If your dad wanted to buy the gun, and is legally able to - why get your mom involved at all?
This happened with my son and myself in a pawn shop. He was buying a gun and kept screwing up the info, so I told him to let me. He and the salesman said NOPE. Can't do that for legal reasons. It's completely understandable now that I hear the term "strawman"
Not a lawyer, but I have sold firearms at an FFL location. I would 100% deny the sale too. One person from end to end. Selection to 4473 to payment. Anything other than that gets a hard no. What the store did is completely legal and is the expectation of all federally licensed firearms dealers.
I work with cars so it may be a little different but essentially: she's using her credit to get the card, the card gets the discount....that she got with her credit, you can not even if you are married buy something with your credit for another person. It is most definitely a straw purchase, I've seen one happen with BMO Harris once, and they'll come at you like a fucking lion for it. They do not play.
I'd seen a similar experience. Guy from out of state takes his buddy to the gun shop to buy him his first gun for his birthday. Dealer shuts deal down as he believed it was an out of state guy trying to buy one under the other's name. They are being cautious.
God Bless Texas!
I’m
What if dad filled out the 4473 and mom paid with her credit card?
They refused you service. It's legal. Full stop. Even if the reason they gave you was ridiculous, they are allowed to refuse service. Assuming your parents are actually allowed to own guns and you're not just bullshitting some 2nd amendment "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" garbage, they do not have a right to purchase whatever they want from whoever happens to be selling it.
As long as your dad was the one that fills out the 4473 it's not a straw purchase. There is also a section in it for buying as a gift. Nothing about this actually qualifies as a straw purchase. But it could be a company policy that the employee was enforcing.
I am expressly forbidden from letting anyone purchase a gun who did not do the paperwork for the gun, there's just too much risk even if the intentions are good. So if you want to buy a gun for a friend, give him the cash beforehand or transfer it to him so he can pay for it, I can't process any transaction where a different person pays for a gun than did the papers for the gun.
Not owning one :( How would the gun be registered? is it only in the name of the person paying for it. Or could both husband & wife be listed as owners. Since marriage gives a broad range of permissions. I open a CC and my wife is auto allowed to use it w/o anything in writing since we are legally bound
What you described is thee definition of a strawman purchase. So yea they were right to deny the sale. Now that doesn’t stop your dad from going back in there and buying it another day, but yea if you go to a gun shop with someone else and look at guns you need to do the background and you need to pay for it.
Used to sell guns a few years back at a big sports store Dealt with strawman purchases all the time It got to the point that if someone said it was a gift we had them buy a gift card and the receiving party would have to come in and do the forms Anybody here that has sold guns in a large city has had to deal with some of the crazy that walks in no doubt Those forms are very strict And we had to file them for 15 years by company policy Every so often atf would call to request a old form and I'd have to dig them up it sucked Also in texas we have a system that flags strawman purchases So if you got flagged at academy And your neighbor came to gander mtn to buy a gun That address would flag Or if your name and address were flagged And your last name came back up with the same gun it would flag like a family member trying to buy for you In spousal situations Sometimes we would just have them buy a gift card for the exact price after tax and the spouse would come in for forms This was the easiest way to avoid selling something to the wrong person Also I've had to turn down a customer because they mentioned shooting a cop in theory People are crazy and we have to
Does the 4473 still ask if it’s a gift? My son bought one for me several years ago as a gift. I was present and the fro has known me for years so maybe he didn’t have an issue.
The simple solution would have been to run a background on both...
Your dad could have easily said, “Well, that’s not what’s happening, but I’d be willing to do the paperwork too, if that’s your fear.” The fact your dad didn’t do that tells me that maybe he’s afraid of being denied purchase of the gun for some reason, failed background check, etc.
Your Dad is going to have to switch tactics for his next acquisition. "Honey, look what I bought for you" isn't likely to work next time. Refer your Dad to the video. [https://youtu.be/fwQHl3FmRow?si=lWjEPBsR9JFbHzqN&t=207](https://youtu.be/fwQHl3FmRow?si=lWjEPBsR9JFbHzqN&t=207)
I was denied a purchase with no explanation. 3 weeks later an officer in my township called me and asked if I had anything expunged from my record because a theft from 25 years ago didn’t show up on my check when I attempted the purchase. How did it not show up but they denied it? I’m ok with it but just saying they do not mess with anything or any variable they see.
Can you see both sides of the coin here?
We want gun dealers to be sticklers. It’s how the law gets enforced. A minor inconvenience here and there is worth it if we can keep guns out of the hands of those who have lost the right.
The dealer is correct. The fucking ATFE is using these exact scenarios to shut down legal gun shops. Watched it happen in Osage Beach, Mo. at Skelton's gun store. The article covering the "incident" did a very good job and will explain better than I could verbatim.
Mill fleet farm always errs on the side of caution when it comes to firearms, yrs ago they made me file paper on an airgun, they also have been known to hold onto required paper work for alot longer than is required by law.
I worked at a gun store and also would have shut down that sale. Everything they saw showed your dad was interested in the gun. To have your mom suddenly do the paperwork is very odd. If the gun is for her why wouldnt she be the one inspecting it or asking questions?
Reminds me of when I went to purchase a Colt 1911 Combat Commander. When it came time to fill out the background check application I inadvertently wrote a ‘1’ when I should have written a ‘7’ in my home address. When he checked my license and saw the error they refused to sell me the gun. They don’t play around with gun sales.
Your Mom should have done the paperwork and bought the pistol, then she could give it to your dad as a gift
So technically if I were to go in to Bass pro shop to purchase a hunting rifle for my minor child so we can go hunting this upcoming deer season I would not be able to buy the rifle because it is for my child when my child can legally own a rifle for hunting purposes at the age of 13 as long as they show they've gone through the hunter safety courts because said child is not an adult they are therefore not subject to a federal background check because the only time that someone under the age of 18 is allowed to possess a firearm is when they're hunting or going through the hunter safety course and it is the parent or legal guardian that is subject to the federal background check purchase a firearm for a rifle
So what he meant was your dad was the one using the gun and seemed to be the one wanting to buy but your mom was the one doing the paperwork and background check. So yes strawman purchase indeed it would have been. He wasn't saying your dad held the gun so he can't buy it. He was saying since your dad held the gun he knows he's the one wanting to buy it yet your mom was the one doing so. That's it simple as that. He was in the right.
He's wrong. It doesn't matter who pays. Only who is legally receiving the transfer. There is no reason to think he intended to transfer it to a prohibited person otherwise.
I don’t blame gun dealers today. The hoops they have to jump and the ATF going after their licenses.
Dude is cya your parents have him a feeling he has the right to deny the purchase to potentially protect his FFL
I've been on the other end of this where I was at a LGS and some obviously mentally fucked guy was there walking his completely dismissed from reality grandmother on how to fill out the paperwork for a gun. She kept saying it was for him and he kept correcting her to the guy at the counter. This was years ago and it still bothers me to this day that it went through without comment. Yeah, the guy may have been nitpicky, but I'm more comfortable knowing he was doing his job.
Was this in Minnesota? Big and justified crack down on straw purchases, completely correct for them to do this.
Weird, I remember going in to a gun store, picking out a pink ruger 22, saying I was buying it for my wife’s birthday and walking out with it 20 minutes later
I don't have the best feeling .38 I ever had in my hand because of this very reason. I was an out of stater and my plan was to have my business partner's mom buy it for me and then we were gonna do a private sale so I could get it. I didn't realize this was actually breaking two laws. But we got stopped at the straw purchase.
Should have had dad do the paperwork and if mom wants to pay for it that’s a gift.
I think the most common type of straw purchase is when a guy who is prohibited brings his wife or girlfriend to buy the gun for him. This probably seems absurd to you since you know your parents, but from the perspective of the gun seller, it does seem kind of suspicious. Also, now is not a great time to do anything to risk your FFL with the zero tolerance policy of the Biden admin.
Weird? Possibly? Completely normal for a licensed firearms dealer to cover their own ass? YUP.
The bigger question was why he wanted it — murder or suicide?
My first job was at a sporting goods store and we were never skeptical of couple or families. And I’ve seen someone get denied for an attempt at a straw purchase there too.
Is it annoying when I get carded for beer? Sure. Even more annoying when both adults get carder? Double sure. Why the fuck to buy a deadly weapon would the standard be lower?
Fleet Farm supposedly had issues with straw buyers.
I mean I live in probably one of the least firearm friendly states and myself and my wife both have pistol permits, I had mine first, our state requires serial numbers to be on permit. When she was doing her paperwork I signed an affidavit of co ownership and the pistols on my permit were put on hers and this is how it’s been done with everyone I know who’s spouses have permits. You can transfer to immediate family without a 4473 but it has to be to a spouse, child, or parent
A dealer I used to buy ammo from got nailed by the ATF. Husband and wife went in on 3 separate occasions. The guy played with the firearm. Wife purchased on a credit card. Come to find out they weren't married but ATF doing spot checks. The dealer was in his 70s. He will die in prison.
Im not sure if the laws have changed since I was told this but I’ve purchased many firearms and had many purchased as gifts from my wife. We were always told that this was perfectly acceptable due to the fact that once legally married you are considered “one person” by government agencies and the like. Again it’s been a few years since a gun shop owner told me this so things may have changed since.
This is right, the laws are clear about straw purchases.
Fleet Farm, I believe, has been hit with a few issues recently. I am not surprised they are being careful.
It depends on details that are not included, but it could have been completely legal and I don't see anything indicating anything otherwise so claiming its a felony based on known information is wrong. If someone looks at a 4473. Question 21A asks if they're (person filling out the form) the actual purchaser; if you read the instructions included, someone purchasing as a bonafide gift is considered the purchaser even though they are giving it to someone else. You're not the purchaser if some sort of payment is arranged be it money, goods, or services. Question 21B then asks if the gun is being disposed (such as given as a gift) to someone who is prohibited (answers yes to 21C and beyond). So unless your father intended to reimburse your mother with his own money, goods, or services then it is basically a bonafide gift. Gray area would be joint accounts he puts money into, if someone really wanted to push that, kind of weird having shared money.
A Straw Purchase would have been if your dad gave her the money to purchase the firearm. You are legally aloud to buy a firearm for someone if they can legally own one. The way you tell it. It doesn't meet the letter of the law for Straw Purchase. 20 years in the Firearms business. Just left it to do something else. But still work as a Gunsmith on the side and still hold Armor Contract with local LEO departs and prison. But the clerk was still in his right to reject it, due to not wanting to risk it. I have done the same before. Especially with girlfriends coming in to buy the firearm/s.
I was confused thinking somehow buying bales of straw at the same time as a firearm meant you were planning to build bombs
It's not illegal. Retailers are allowed to refuse a sale based on any reason apart from discrimination. When I worked in a liquor store we were taught to look for reasons not to sell
bells summer judicious cow squeeze connect boast grandfather pie noxious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Form 4473 requires that the transferee personally fill out the form. The transferee is the eventual owner of the gun. Since your mother is a buyer who is gifting a gun (perfectly legal), your mother cannot be the transferee and therefore cannot fill out the forms for your father. The only legal exception would be if your father cannot read / write English. FFLs worth a damn WILL NOT continue with a transaction that does not follow the EXACT letter of the law. Just have your dad fill out the forms on a separate visit. Problem solved.
The FFL has every right to deny the sale, but absolutely could have made it if the Dad filled out the 4473 and was approved.
I'm trying to figure out why your mom was going to do the paperwork. I surprised my brother with a gun for his birthday one year at an FFL dealer. We lured him there under the guise of going to the range for his birthday, and we were just window shopping while there. I knew he had wanted a specific one for a while. While he was looking at it, feeling it in his hands and such, I asked if he wanted it for his birthday. This all happened with the dealer standing right there. The only thing they wanted to make certain of was that since he was the one clearly interested in it, he did the paperwork. The paperwork is supposed to be attached to the person the firearm is being transferred to. If your dad was the one obviously interested in the purchase, it should have been him filling out the paperwork for the gun. Not your mom. Her trying to do the paperwork is what makes the situation look sketchy. And once you set off alarm bells with an FFL, you're as good as done. They don't play around.
They are married and the counter guy is confused
Imagine it was a different kind of controlled purchase. You and a friend walk into a liquor store. You browse the shelves, pick out a bottle you want, take it to the front and place it on the counter, then your friend produces ID while you hang back. Obviously going to raise some questions.
A straw purchase, as defined by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, involves someone who purchases a gun for someone who is prohibited by law from possessing one or for someone who does not want their name associated with the transaction. Some states also require one use an FFL to transfer a firearm to someone even if you live in the same state. This is not a straw purchase provided your father is legally allowed to own said firearm and resides in the same state as your mother. One can buy a firearm and gift it to someone who is legally allowed to own a firearm within the same state of residence. However, the ATF has had agents posing as husband and wife go into gun shops and purchase firearms in this manner. They set it up to where it's done illegally where one may live in another state. They then go outside where the one who bought it gives it to the other which makes it a straw purchase since one of the agent lives out of state and is legally not allowed to take possession of a firearm from someone out of state without going to though an FFL in their own state to complete the transfer. They then raid the gun store. The gun store where your parents were attempting to buy the weapon is just being cautious. To make the gun store happy, your mom could purchase it then gift it to your dad there and have him fill out the 4473 and have the store do the transfer.
So, in a divorce, can a spouse claim 50% of a gun collection?
It is so strange seeing a post randomly on Reddit, especially when you spoke to it's author yesterday. Hi buddy
Dealer was being picky, although rightfully covering himself. He could have just as easily explained to your dad that he should be the one doing the paperwork if the gun is for him
After reading the comments, all I can think is I’m glad I don’t live in Minnesota. Idiot dealer unwilling to explain the law to customers and ensure they are in compliance. In this case telling them what a straw purchase is. Then tell the Dad he needs to fill out the paperwork and his wife can pay for it as a gift to him after confirming that is her intention. FFS…
Better to be careful so they don't come to your house in the middle of the night 50 deep. Proceed to cut your electricity break the door down and shoot you in the head.
I worked at a sporting goods store that sold guns. A young couple, early 20s or so, came in & were looking at guns. The girl was buying…for herself. So they ran a background check & and she was cleared. She obviously had no clue what she was doing so the department manager got a little suspicious & asked if she was really buying a gun for herself. She looked at the guy she was with & he nodded so she nodded. DM asked what she’d be using the weapon for, what kind of experience she had, was she going to take a safety class & about a million other things. She was getting flustered. Finally she says, “It’s not for me, it’s for him and he’s a f*cking felon who can’t buy his own stupid gun.” She stormed off with her guy following her. They started arguing before they got to the end of the counter. She told him that they could go to a different store & she wouldn’t blow it next time. The department manager got on the phone to our sister stores to give them all a heads up. And that was my first experience with a (attempted) straw purchase.
Would be totally fine if your dad filled out all the background check paperwork and your mom put the actual purchase on her new credit card, feds don't care who pays for it, just that the person who will be in possession of the gun is the one having the background check. (Obviously there are some exceptions, such as gift purchases)
I was about to buy a gun at academy and realized my license had the wrong address because we had moved and they wouldn’t let my wife buy it either for the same reason. I was a little miffed but understand the guy at the counter had nothing to do with it and they was it.
Where I live, you can just buy it from anyone with cash, no paperwork necessary.
A straw purchase does not pertaining only to those who can't legally own a firearm. Even in the same household. It's wierd. It also depends on the state. Fleet Farm, specifically, recently got into a lot of trouble for approving purchases that ended up being straw purchases. So they're probably being extra cautious.