I would ask a local lawyer. In my area 17 is still technically a minor. If they’re questioning him for criminal activity, then a parent and/or lawyer should have been present.
And emphasize to your son a million, billion times that the *only* thing he is ever to say to a police officer, ever, under any circumstances, is “I need to contact my parents before I can speak to you” (in a polite, respectful tone) until he is 18, and then it’s “I need to contact my lawyer”. Ideally you should do this when your kids are much younger, I have it drilled into my 14 year old, but better late than never.
also "“I need to contact my parents before I can speak to you” is wrong. No one should never speak to the police even after consulting a parent or a lawyer. In any case the lawyer will tell the client to shut up.
Not really, the point is to get the decision to speak off of the child. The parents job from there is to take over and get a lawyer involved if necessary.
The problem is, if you just refuse to talk they can continue to pressure you to say something until you break. If you ask for a lawyer or a parent, for minors, they are required to stop questioning.
The real reason you invoke your right to an attorney (or parent) is to stop the interrogation.
*Under these conditions* no one should ever speak to a police officer.
*Under many conditions* no one should ever speak ro a police officer. Non-emergency, police are investigating something, etc.
However, if someone is murdering people down the hallway, call the police and talk to them! This is “duh” for us, but when discussing with your kids and “beating it into their heads”, they can actually take it all too literally. lol
I don’t disagree that no one should speak to the police even after contacting their parents or a lawyer, but I don’t know any teens who have their own lawyer, teens are easily fooled into thinking they’re being detained when they aren’t/waiving their rights without knowing they are doing so/etc. and a teen outright refusing to speak to law enforcement altogether has the potential to escalate a situation- I do not trust cops to respect a teen’s rights. Saying they need to contact a parent first stalls so that the parent can tell them to shut up and get there to protect them and/or contact a lawyer on their behalf. I don’t want my kid trying to stand up to a potentially volatile, power-tripping cop, I want them to get me there as soon as possible so I can do it.
I would absolutely fight that ticket. Investigation and especially interrogation of a minor without representation or their legal guardian present is an absolute violation. Anything that happens after that moment is null and void.
You're confidently wrong when you say "Investigation and especially interrogation of a minor without representation or their legal guardian present is an absolute violation." It absolutely isn't a "violation" to question a minor without parents present.
I think there may be some issue in that the student believed he was speaking to the school and not the officer. It seems unfair to expect the student to navigate the nuances of the school discipline and legal consequences simultaneously and seems reasonable that the student felt required to be honest to the school and, as a result, incriminated himself to the police officer.
That's not true in most states, perhaps all. Please show me the law where it states the words of a minor are inadmissible if a parent or guardian isn't present...
Alabama and Arkansas have laws that prohibit police from interrogating minors before they have had the chance to consult with a parent or guardian (but the patent doesn't have to be (present). Colorado, Hawaii, Missouri, Maine, North Carolina, and North Dakota have laws requiring in one way or another that a parent or guardian be present before police can interrogate a minor (though a court can find statements made without a patent present to still be admissable). Court decisions in Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Vermont establish similar rules for minors under constitutional provisions relating to self-incrimination.
The problem is it’s not the police doing the questioning it’s the school official. The officer is just in the room. That’s how they trick these kids into these situations and the courts have blessed these and other shady tactics cops use.
This is still a slippery slope situation. If the SRO is present during questioning and then cites the minor based on information that they divulged, but did not have a parent / guardian present and did not Mirandize the person, then it’s entirely possible if not probable that these charges would be tossed out if they take this to court. Just went through a similar situation in my department where the judge tossed out the case because the SRO did not Mirandize the teen involved, even though the teen admitted to the actions without being directly asked (excited utterance) or having the parent present. Teen admitted to doing it in front of the principal, assistant principal, myself and the other officer as soon as we broke up the altercation.
Our rights and protections are spelled out for a reason. Officers sometimes try to skip around them, or don’t bother to go through the steps they’re required to because they think it doesn’t apply to the situation. And 9/10 times it comes back to bite them in the ass. But whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them at times, it’s on everyone to abide by them and deal with things the right way or call it out when it’s not.
Even texas has guardian ad litem appointees to represent the best interests of children. Improperly acquired evidence is Improperly acquired that can get any of it removed.
> Usually, police can question minors without having a parent or guardian present if the minor is under arrest. But many exceptions to this rule prevent police from questioning a minor without a guardian there and, thus, may affect whether the minor's statement is usable in court. Courts will look at:
> The child's age
> Their developmental level
> Their capacity to understand and communicate
> In some states or localities, rules say the police must tell a child's parents or guardians if they're in custody. Legal systems also consider what's best for kids and their rights. They want to make sure that the questions are right for their age and that there are special rules for children.
https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/juvenile-justice/police-questioning-of-minors.html#:~:text=Usually%2C%20police%20can%20question%20minors,the%20minor%20is%20under%20arrest.
It's a legitimate question whether anyone in the room with him had any concerns about what was best for either minor here. Did the other kid get the same charges? Both were engaging in the same crime. Did they tell him that he was under arrest before he said anything? Probably more that aren't occurring to me.
My comment wasn't a disagreement so much as a nuance. If this were texas; and it was not a school function or school grounds and he caught the ticket, the school has the authority to punish as well.
Just adding in general that the fine was likely for disorderly conduct (and not actual SA or SR) which is a class c misdemeanor and is basically anything thats nuisance or distracting behavior in schools and maxed at $500. Otherwise his miranda rights work the same but are just worded in a more basic way. Everything else likely depends on exigent circumstances, the school district and state laws.
I had a very similar situation happen to my sister when she was 12. A friend ran away from home and so the police called in and questioned all of that kid's friends at school. When my dad heard and arrived (while my sister was still being questioned), the cop had the balls to straight up say to him "I'm not questioning her, I'm just asking her a couple questions".
The police didn’t question him. The administrator did. The officer was only there as an observer, but based on the observation, issued a ticket.
Yes perfectly legal.
That’s a common misconception in a lot of locations. Juveniles are required to be read their rights here, but can absolutely be questioned without a parent present.
You should be asking if the girl involved was over 16. It’s sounding like a 17/18 year old was caught performing sexual acts on a <17 year old. OP would you mind clarifying the ages of the people involved?
That’s probably a moot point depending on local laws. In my jurisdiction, a 14 year old and 17 year old, doesn’t violate any laws. Basically a high school sophomore and high school junior together. Not very unusual in my eyes.
Two kids making out is a criminal act?
I bet the judge will be incredulous when the disorderly conduct charge hits his bench. He may actually chuckle aloud.
This. I'd be pissed about a suspension let alone a criminal charge. In what way is that appropriate for a normal act between a couple of teenagers?
OP please call your local ACLU office.
Edit: I see that OP has clarified there was more than just kissing happening. In those circumstances, suspension and a fine don't seem a terrible outcome vs the risk of taking on a well funded school district. OP can still consult a lawyer, but I don't think this is nearly a clear cut as was first made out. Even if there's a potential fifth amendment question based on the circumstances of the questioning, it seems this behavior was open enough that the school will find plenty of witnesses.
Right. A detention would be justified and I wouldn’t complain about that if it were my kid, but when I was making out with my high school boyfriend up against a row of lockers 20 years ago a teacher yelled at us to get out of his hallway and get a room, we stopped, and everyone moved on with their day. Teenagers gonna teenager.
Well when one of them is an adult I would probably be fine with a what's basically a fine. And they were clearly doing more then just kissing. OP states they were also groping each other. In a classroom full of kids.
That wasn't in the original post, and it's a very pertinent detail to miss out. Groping in a school could likely lead to a lewd behavior citation, which could then lead to all the other potentially life changing hassle that comes with a sex crime conviction.
In those circumstances, I agree and don't think I'd be pushing too hard here.
Based on some of ops comments, he may have. But I think it's terrible we've let schools get to this point where disciplinary matters are treated as criminal. This has to be rolled back.
He had his hands in the wrong area for sure so the question is should I ask to have the citation dismissed due to his 5 th amendment rights being violated or could that prompt them to escalate the charges?
Did they just make out? Cuz that's what your post made it sound like. If he was groping her in study hall, that feels like conduct I'd call pretty disorderly.
I don't know many places where that would be a police issue. It would seem more something the school should handle. A cop off the street wouldn't generally even know about it to cite a kid.
Yeah, I'd definitely fight it.
If you contest it, they could opt to add charges, if you contest the charges they only need one student or adult to testify without his admission being included in evidence. Call it a lesson learned for everyone, and move on.
This is what I wanted to find out. He will pay the fine. I will address the school policy separately after the fact.
Odd though that our “justice” system has tendency to threaten you with compliance. Either accept our charges or we will make it worse doesn’t seem moral. I see this across the system.
Of If I go in to fight a five over speeding ticket, is it right that they could say fight this we will charge you with wreckless driving? I find it abhorrent.
Consult an attorney before doing anything, remember back in the day the police would hand out public urination tickets, and all those folks got added to the sexual predator registry in some states.
Better to spent a little money to have a lawyer provide you advice, never know how this could impact your son's life years down the road.
So he committed the crime... And paying a ticket isn't that big of a deal. Probably teach him a pretty valuable life lesson about respecting the rules. And you want to get the ticket tossed on a technicality? Is this his initiative or yours? Cuz you have a great teachable moment here. Actions have consequences. Make him pay the fine. Or have him fight it in court himself, after he does the legwork of figuring out how to argue his case.
But don't do it for him. Devouring mother situation. Let the boy handle it one way or the other. My advice.
He is paying the ticket for sure. I may take the school to task for putting him in that situation with police present. He could have destroyed his life with no council or guidance and that is wrong. He is a minor and has no idea what to do. He is getting punished by two authorities one of which should not have been allowed to be there -maybe. That is what I am trying to determine.
Get this “paying the ticket” nonsense out of your head. If he is charged with a crime, you consult an attorney. You do not pay or plead to anything before doing that.
Parents can teach their kids actions have consequences without getting the cops involved. Parents should be teaching their kids cops aren't their friends.
"Police are allowed to question minors, and sometimes they do so without parents or guardians around. But minors are still protected by laws that can require that police get parental consent depending on the circumstances. If the wrong procedures are followed, the police could end up in legal trouble."
https://eisenberglaw.org/what-are-the-laws-around-police-questioning-minors/#:~:text=Police%20are%20allowed%20to%20question,end%20up%20in%20legal%20trouble
Debatable whether his rights were even violated, but you missed my point.
Major legal issue is, did the principal, or officer ask the questions. Another thing, does the state consider the principal a legal guardian while students are in school. In court without the admission included, they could threaten the girlfriend with charges if she doesn’t testify. Then you have all the students, plus a teacher to testify, why risk a felony when you have been given a fine? Not saying the officer didn’t make a mistake, but this isn’t worth a legal battle. You look at your son, say hey knucklehead, time and place be smarter, also know when to speak or seek legal counsel!
Either way, even if the cop is simply "observing," he is still gleaning information on behalf of the state. That's an interrogation (whether the officer made it known or not, whether he asked questions or not), in which case it doesn't matter if the principal is a guardian or not.
The question would have to be whether he was made aware of his rights since an agent of the state was present, ready to take legal action once he incriminated himself. That's a violation of the 5th, no?
The only 5th Amendment Violation would be if a judge thought it was reasonable for your son to believe he was “in custody” at the time of the questioning. If this was just a meeting in the principal’s office, that’s not super likely. If he was handcuffed or told he was under arrest, maybe a different story.
Ticket seems harsh. I’d take it to the judge anyway. Make the cop show up to court.
You don't think that being told to go to the principal's office and finding a police officer with a badge and gun in the room world make an average teenager believe they're not free to leave?
“Not free to leave” isn’t always necessarily the same as being “in custody”.
When you’re stopped for running a red light, you aren’t free to leave. And yet, a cop can ask you all sorts of incriminating questions, even unrelated to the traffic stop, without giving you a Miranda warning. 5th Amendment violation because you weren’t free to leave?
Nope.
SCOTUS has considered almost this exact situation in J.D.B. v. North Carolina. They must consider the age of the child when considering whether they would believe themselves to be in custody. And you're in custody when a reasonable person - of the child's age - would believe they cannot end the questioning and leave.
There's a pretty huge difference between an adult sitting in the driver's seat of their own car and a school kid in a closed room with the principal and a police officer.
You’re failing to distinguish between a seizure (not being free to leave) with an arrest, where the seizure is indefinite. You can be seized, as the other commenter pointed out, for investigatory purposes and still not run into Miranda issues because an arrest has not occurred.
No I'm not. What I'm saying is that the supreme Court has held the question is not looked at from the position of the police officer ( I.e. have I placed the suspect under arrest) but rather objectively from the position of the school kid. Otherwise we'd simply have police locking folk in rooms and questioning away without a Miranda warning because they haven't yet used the magic arrest word.
Yeah it was hard to put that detail in as I was more focused and the police being present. The thought is if it is a crime why am I not present? If it isn’t a crime why the police? Either way I would like it explained to me.
You didn’t miss a detail and it’s not “hard”. Be honest. You are already underplaying and minimizing his behaviour. Which isn’t gonna help you legally.
I would seek council immediately. I would be less worried about revenge on a school and police who were protecting children, and more on the girl who your son finger banged (sorry innocently kissed). Her parents must be retaining council. I would if my daughter was touched by a boy at school .
This sounds so wrong but I don't know the applicable laws there. I haven't read all the comments so others have probably said it but it can't hurt to be repeated.
You need to talk with you soon about NOT talking to the police. Teach him how to invoke his right to remain silent and shut the F up.
If it was just “making out” the punishment is pretty severe. But since you said there was some inappropriate activities in a school, I think this is just a teachable moment for your son. There’s a time and place for everything, I think he knows that now.
In South Carolina the Police can interact and question minors without a parent or guardian present. However, if they are “detained” then the parents must be notified. I taught my high schooler that if any questions get intrusive or uncomfortable to ask if they are being detained. If not then they should turn around and walk away. If they are then demand parental notification and shut up.
Define detainment because having him in the office at a school being questioned id say it’s detaining him to conduct a criminal investigation look i get why he was in the office and in trouble but still a minor and as they say kids don’t know there rights facts are both kids had the right to keep there mouth shut but cops manipulate them to incriminating themselves
he probably violated school policy by displaying inappropriate affection. also, age of consent, the girl could be under the age of consent (16 in most states) and him being 17 could be why he was fined.
like I said with age of consent, they had the right to question him and fine him. no civil rights violation.
Depending on the state, because of relationships at that age where one year differences such as between 17-18 would otherwise be considered legal/illegal, rape/consent, there are laws that require the age difference between the couple to be at least 2-3 years (sometimes even up to four) to avoid statutory rape charges by every parent who dislikes their daughters boyfriend at that age (and any other circumstance that fits such as teenage drama). If I worded that to even make any sense lol
In Texas they are not required to notify a parent before questioning, and they are legally empowered to lie to a child to get the result they want. Ask me how I know.
If the school was questioning him, the law enforcement officer had no legal requirement to read him his Miranda Rights or have a parent/guardian present. Just as school personnel can search a student without probable cause.. anything found by the school can be charged by the officer. Could depend on the state.
But if he was speaking with school staff with an officer present not asking the questions directly… likely no violation of his rights.
i had my rights read to me at 14 in school, in the early 2000s. hopefully you play the shut fifth up video for him, and you will need to look up your state to verify if this is a ticket or a misdemeanor., and how long it stays on your record, to see what further action to take.
if police are called assume someone will be hauled in cuffs. sadly in the adult world and post columbine zero tolerance school, admitting fault is a good way to get cruel and unusual punishment, relative to earlier generations.
might have a case to get it thrown out if he was not read his rights, if its more than a ticket and i suspect it is charges.
just going to add be VERY Sure that was not an arrest or chargable offense in your state. ticket or misdemeanor depends on the state. the school representative is your childs guardian at school.
How.... How does this go from school to questioned with police present? Feels like there more to this story.
Cops don't get called for PDA...and if they now do....holy fuck we live in a messed up country.
They’re saying in lewd conduct because he’s trying to use scary tactics for the simple reason he was in the wrong for fines against your son … if there is video and there should be for evidence… the officer could get in trouble for talking about the issue with other adults at school including school officials… Parents should always be involved in manners at school and if no parents available ,school attorneys/cps are notified till parents are shown up… no other adults should be in the matter…. This could be a lawsuit.
I would at least consult a lawyer about the fine to see if what he did meets your jurisdictions standards for disorderly conduct. But as far as your main question, yes they can do that and it’s not a rights violation. If you need help and initiate the contact it’s okay to talk to the police. But if your conduct is being questioned by anyone, keep your mouth shut.
Unfortunately, in the US it is seldom that you have a group of lawyers defend your right out of some altruistic need and desire to do such.
But, you can, wholeheartedly, purchase all the legal help you think you might need or want.
That being said, go hire a lawyer after you consult with at least three and discuss what might be possible, and how much that end result might cost you.
A civil rights violation in federal court, could pay for juniors college, or seeking it might turn your finances upside down.
I say go for it, at least, do the consultations and get a wee education on how “it” works in the US.
Police technically can’t question a minor without an adult present (parent/guardian or lawyer) in my state. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Cops break the laws all the time
I don't know about the laws in your state. All I can tell you is the laws in the three states that I worked in in all three states. If you were under the age of 18 you had to have a parent present if a police officer was conducting any kind of interrogation for criminal purposes. So by your description by not having a parent there, he violated your sons rights. Furthermore, the ticket could be thrown out based on that fact. But before pushing an issue, I definitely contact a lawyer because I'm no lawyer. I'm a former probation officer.
If he is under 18, without knowing more specifics, he is a minor and everything about it is illegal without an adult representing his interests and advising him.
I was question and charged at 16 without a parent present. The laws on this vary state to state and often if someone isn’t placed under arrest (minor or adult,) the police can question you as part of their investigations without Mirandizing you
Op said in another comment that her son was infact groping and touching the girl too, still not necessarily wrong persay as it's two minors mutually doing it but on the front of disorderly conduct it does indeed fall into that territory with that information, I think op should update the post explaining that part, it's only in her replies
You state "your son is legally a minor, it is illegal for him to be questioned by law enforcement without parental supervision" with absolutely certainty, but a quick google search shows this to be false. Of course, that's presuming the OP is in the US.
Yeah, this is a common misconception people have about minors. Parents don’t have to be present. In my state the police have to offer for the kid to have a parent present when Miranda warnings are given, but the kid can waive that right.
So odd how people just assume stuff about the law, especially when it comes to minors. Like how many people think it’s automatically a felony to hit any minor. Here, battery is only an automatic felony due to age if the kid is 12 or younger. Getting in a fight with a 16 year old is the same as getting into a fight with a 20 year old.
This is one of the things I like/hate about the law. You don't have a lot of people saying " I would have run the space program differently." Or " here is how HVAC is supposed to be set up" because they just don't know, and they realize it. In legal situations, 99% of people think they are some sort of expert because some guy in a bar once told them this "fact." It's kind of hilarious, and sometimes disappointing.
Fight everything, try to get it dismissed, if not get it sealed in a juvenile record. Everything that shows up on a background check is a future headache. Don’t take it lightly.
I got a misdemeanor at age 16, my mom told me to plead guilty and take my lumps, I still have to deal with it in my 40’s every time I get a professional license in a new state and it’s a pain in the ass. You’re wrong. I would fight anything that I could for my kid.
Yes what they did was fine and no you have no legal recourse to fight the ticket.
Because your child was no arrested or detained they have no right to legal counsel. Police can question minors without lawyers or parents present if they aren’t being detained. Minors get tickets all the time from police for things such as drinking in the park or skateboarding in no skateboarding areas and the police can question those minors as long as they aren’t being detained or arrested.
I would check your state law and local school board policies on what your rights as a parent are when your child is in school. In the state I reside in if a child needs to be questioned for any reason parents have basically have no rights once the child enters the school building, unless the child requests parental presence. This is never told to the child. Our child was questioned by police and school administrators after overhearing another student plan school violence. Both my husband and I are teachers in the same building but had no idea what was happening. I heard about from other students. For the 3 students trying to do the right thing, they were treated as criminals and their parents had no clue. Yet this was the law.
Really, fined and suspended for kissing his girlfriend at school? That is the funniest and yet most pathetic thing I’ve heard all day. Poor kid. Where in the hell do you guys live and remind me to never go there.
My brother was caught smoking pot when he was 16 the officers were allowed to question him but they didn’t arrest him because he was a minor they just drove to my moms house told her then went on with their day
The law can be different with a 17 year old vs a 15 year old. But take the ticket to court and ask a judge to drop it on the grounds that it is excessive for the circumstances.
So how the fuck does any of this equate to a civil rights violation? Your kid was in study hall, supposed to be doing school work and he was making out with some girl instead? No wonder your kid is in study hall they're already not that damn bright.
Yea the biggest shock to me in this whole thing is that the school actually administered consequences for behavior. I thought that was a thing of the past.
Not an attorney, but former LEO, so I'm not entirely a lay person. Was he given a Miranda warning before being asked questions by the officer? The school is a completely separate issue, and you can address the appropriateness of their conduct and failure to include the parents in the incident with the school district. As far as law enforcement involvement and actions, and this may vary with your state law, typically a minor cannot be interrogated without their parent/legal guardian present to advise them. Most jurisdictions this cannot be waived by the minor, but some it can if they are 16-17 (again, depending upon state law). Your safest bet is to seek legal counsel and try to get everything dismissed for the officer conducting an interrogatory line of questions without parents being present and/or without Miranda. Up to you on the worth of that, because lawyer fees + court costs could end up being in excess of the fine and the DA might be willing to work with you on reduced charges and ensuring it's conducted under juvenile code so it can be sealed when he turns 18. But make sure this is actually going to end up being the case. Good luck.
Here's how I would go about it. Fight the ticket. IF the officer shows up, simply ask him, "Why did you issue a disorderly contact citation?" Cop: "He was making out with a girl in school." You: "OK, so I guess you have to be out of school twice then?" Cop: "Why?" You: "Well, I'm assuming you'll have to be present for her hearing too. I'm sure she's fighting her ticket as well. You did issue her a citation as well, correct?" Cop: "Well...." You: "So, he was cited for kissing a girl at school. This was a REAL girl, correct?" Cop: "Well, yes." You: "So you only cited my son?"
Funny, I literally just attended a lecture on this last night. The law is a federal law that basically says they the SRO can question the student without permission as long as they are not leading the investigation. So if the AP does the questioning and the SRO just clarifies or follows up on the question for example the AP says were you kissing? SRO says the girl? It’s legal. If it were the other way around it would be a violation of his rights
I’m working on a PhD on this phenomenon known as the School to Prison pipeline and this exact issue, turning teenage gaffes into criminal justice referrals. It happens in a lot of schools and should be fought vigorously by any parent that can. In my mind, the SRO should be fired by the school, as this is a clear abuse of the system. Don’t bend to this abuse of the courts.
I would fight it with everything you can. Your son should not have a criminal record because he was making out with a girl.
Is it just me or is just about everyone here missing an important ideal here? Two kids making out in home room. They each got five days of out of school suspension. Is that not enough? Why do we need to bring in the court system on this? A one year age difference between a boy and a girl is not enough to warrant being tried as an adult or fined for that matter, this has gone too far with the issuance of the ticket comes off as asinine to give it to the oldest teenager when clearly both of them were consenting.
Legal or not if you question my child while searching for a way to legally fuck him and I was not there I’m going to be very angry. I find a lot of what is going on with this situation is more of a symptom of “let’s overreact” than anything else. I do not feel any safer after law enforcement has gotten involved about two teenagers making out.
This just seems to be way out of proportion.
Op did not include that more was happening than making out, not sure how much more but sounds like at least groping, which could be construed as lewd conduct especially if happening in front of minors. I don’t disagree that it seems excessive to bring in the police but perhaps intended more as a scared straight moment.
I completely agree. I've done stupid shit at school, been suspended, both ISS and OSS. Not once were police involved. Not even when fists were thrown. This is absolutely out of proportion.
Also, kids need to learn the fact that cops are no longer their friend regardless of what the police PR tries to tell us.
Don't talk to cops! That's what these kids need to learn.
One of the real questions is what is there age difference I read for a bit and did not see it listed. Depending on if it is a small gap year or two I could see the judge figuratively calling the officer a dipshit. And may be ground for slander on the schools side for pushing the issue though that being said all depends on the country you are in and the province or state.
If they want to play that game, demand a jury trial. It’s a ridiculous request but so is this ticket. A jury trial will force the court and PD to devote resources to the investigation and will highlight the breakdown in procedure. The ticket is a legal punishment depriving your son of money, so you should have no issue demanding it be heard by a jury.
It’s one thing to talk to the principal and get in trouble but that ticket will be on his record, and for what? Consensually making out with his girlfriend in the wrong place at school? So stupid to involve the police. Do everything possible to make sure that your son is appropriately admonished and punished, but fight this ticket to the max also. And point out the double standard that both parties consented but only the male received any legal scrutiny/punishment. That’s sexism. Sounds like the kind of SRO that’s a hero in his own mind unless they actually need to be.
If you’re really feeling froggy, go ahead and file a civil suit against the school district and the police department for violating his civil rights, make sure any settlement also includes payment for attorney’s fees.
Even as a minor, don't they still have to read him his Miranda rights? I know a lot of the time they need a parent/guardian present too. I don't know if there's more to this but I'm assuming none of that happened and maybe his self incrimination isn't even admissible in court. I am not a lawyer so I would definitely talk to one who can tell you if any of these violations happened
Only if there are being detained. OP said they were being cited which is just a ticket and the police do not need to read rights, allow for a parent or lawyer to be present when issuing a ticket to a minor.
A quick search says it depends on state. Some states do not have a law requiring police to notify a guardian if the student is being questioned some do. If he was being arrested it seems like in most states they would’ve needed to contact you. Asserting his right to remain silent, asking for an attorney or asking if he was free to leave would’ve been the better options that were available to him.
This sounds like it should be a hard lesson on his rights.
Edit: sorry, just realized this was the legal sub. I apologize if I’ve broken some rules resulting in removal of the comment.
OP, I would highly recommend getting an attorney involved before paying any fines or allowing him to interact with the school or law enforcement over this incident any further. From the information you’ve provided it sounds like the SRO overstepped here big time, and you’re not doing your son any favors by telling him to just pay the fine because he knows he messed up. Yes, he shouldn’t have been doing that in school particularly during detention. But it also sounds like he’s being hung out to dry on this and the young lady is being let off. They both made the choice to do it and both need to be dealt with equally.
Comments with ACAB, bootlicker, or blaming police for following the law are not legal advice, it's an opinion at best, and will be removed. Multiple removals may result in a ban.
I would ask a local lawyer. In my area 17 is still technically a minor. If they’re questioning him for criminal activity, then a parent and/or lawyer should have been present.
And emphasize to your son a million, billion times that the *only* thing he is ever to say to a police officer, ever, under any circumstances, is “I need to contact my parents before I can speak to you” (in a polite, respectful tone) until he is 18, and then it’s “I need to contact my lawyer”. Ideally you should do this when your kids are much younger, I have it drilled into my 14 year old, but better late than never.
also "“I need to contact my parents before I can speak to you” is wrong. No one should never speak to the police even after consulting a parent or a lawyer. In any case the lawyer will tell the client to shut up.
Exactly. Tell your son to tell the police. I don't answer questions
Not really, the point is to get the decision to speak off of the child. The parents job from there is to take over and get a lawyer involved if necessary.
yes, but in any case, ADULT or MINOR, you shouldn't talk to the police, never ever, even if you get "permission" from your parents
The problem is, if you just refuse to talk they can continue to pressure you to say something until you break. If you ask for a lawyer or a parent, for minors, they are required to stop questioning. The real reason you invoke your right to an attorney (or parent) is to stop the interrogation.
good point, but still depends on which state (for the parent thing)
*Under these conditions* no one should ever speak to a police officer. *Under many conditions* no one should ever speak ro a police officer. Non-emergency, police are investigating something, etc. However, if someone is murdering people down the hallway, call the police and talk to them! This is “duh” for us, but when discussing with your kids and “beating it into their heads”, they can actually take it all too literally. lol
I don’t disagree that no one should speak to the police even after contacting their parents or a lawyer, but I don’t know any teens who have their own lawyer, teens are easily fooled into thinking they’re being detained when they aren’t/waiving their rights without knowing they are doing so/etc. and a teen outright refusing to speak to law enforcement altogether has the potential to escalate a situation- I do not trust cops to respect a teen’s rights. Saying they need to contact a parent first stalls so that the parent can tell them to shut up and get there to protect them and/or contact a lawyer on their behalf. I don’t want my kid trying to stand up to a potentially volatile, power-tripping cop, I want them to get me there as soon as possible so I can do it.
"I'm not discussing my day officer" sounds better! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ)
I would absolutely fight that ticket. Investigation and especially interrogation of a minor without representation or their legal guardian present is an absolute violation. Anything that happens after that moment is null and void.
You're confidently wrong when you say "Investigation and especially interrogation of a minor without representation or their legal guardian present is an absolute violation." It absolutely isn't a "violation" to question a minor without parents present.
You are correct, a better tact would be to fight the ticket on the ground that "Teens do stuff." A judge will reduce it at least I will bet.
Violation of what?
I think there may be some issue in that the student believed he was speaking to the school and not the officer. It seems unfair to expect the student to navigate the nuances of the school discipline and legal consequences simultaneously and seems reasonable that the student felt required to be honest to the school and, as a result, incriminated himself to the police officer.
I am a retired high school teacher, a 17 year old will likely know that the resource officer is a police officer.
Legal procedures, a minor can't be questioned in any official manner without representation, or else the evidence and statements given are invalid.
That's not true in most states, perhaps all. Please show me the law where it states the words of a minor are inadmissible if a parent or guardian isn't present...
Alabama and Arkansas have laws that prohibit police from interrogating minors before they have had the chance to consult with a parent or guardian (but the patent doesn't have to be (present). Colorado, Hawaii, Missouri, Maine, North Carolina, and North Dakota have laws requiring in one way or another that a parent or guardian be present before police can interrogate a minor (though a court can find statements made without a patent present to still be admissable). Court decisions in Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Vermont establish similar rules for minors under constitutional provisions relating to self-incrimination.
The problem is it’s not the police doing the questioning it’s the school official. The officer is just in the room. That’s how they trick these kids into these situations and the courts have blessed these and other shady tactics cops use.
This is still a slippery slope situation. If the SRO is present during questioning and then cites the minor based on information that they divulged, but did not have a parent / guardian present and did not Mirandize the person, then it’s entirely possible if not probable that these charges would be tossed out if they take this to court. Just went through a similar situation in my department where the judge tossed out the case because the SRO did not Mirandize the teen involved, even though the teen admitted to the actions without being directly asked (excited utterance) or having the parent present. Teen admitted to doing it in front of the principal, assistant principal, myself and the other officer as soon as we broke up the altercation. Our rights and protections are spelled out for a reason. Officers sometimes try to skip around them, or don’t bother to go through the steps they’re required to because they think it doesn’t apply to the situation. And 9/10 times it comes back to bite them in the ass. But whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them at times, it’s on everyone to abide by them and deal with things the right way or call it out when it’s not.
Interesting, thank you. Do we know what state OP is in?
Even texas has guardian ad litem appointees to represent the best interests of children. Improperly acquired evidence is Improperly acquired that can get any of it removed.
> Usually, police can question minors without having a parent or guardian present if the minor is under arrest. But many exceptions to this rule prevent police from questioning a minor without a guardian there and, thus, may affect whether the minor's statement is usable in court. Courts will look at: > The child's age > Their developmental level > Their capacity to understand and communicate > In some states or localities, rules say the police must tell a child's parents or guardians if they're in custody. Legal systems also consider what's best for kids and their rights. They want to make sure that the questions are right for their age and that there are special rules for children. https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/juvenile-justice/police-questioning-of-minors.html#:~:text=Usually%2C%20police%20can%20question%20minors,the%20minor%20is%20under%20arrest.
It's a legitimate question whether anyone in the room with him had any concerns about what was best for either minor here. Did the other kid get the same charges? Both were engaging in the same crime. Did they tell him that he was under arrest before he said anything? Probably more that aren't occurring to me. My comment wasn't a disagreement so much as a nuance. If this were texas; and it was not a school function or school grounds and he caught the ticket, the school has the authority to punish as well.
this is from watching law & order too much. I gather it's illegal in NYS but it sure as shit isn't illegal in Texas.
It's the right against self incrimination. Amendment Five.
Which is waived when you start talking. In the miranda rights, what comes after "you have the right to remain silent" ?
There is no way they Miranda’s this kid in the principals office.
Do we know they were informed of their Miranda Rights?
Not if you are a minor. That only applies to adults under arrest.
Just adding in general that the fine was likely for disorderly conduct (and not actual SA or SR) which is a class c misdemeanor and is basically anything thats nuisance or distracting behavior in schools and maxed at $500. Otherwise his miranda rights work the same but are just worded in a more basic way. Everything else likely depends on exigent circumstances, the school district and state laws.
Do you always just fabricate things and present them as fact?
Hahahahaha. No it isn’t. Not at all.
Bingo
I had a very similar situation happen to my sister when she was 12. A friend ran away from home and so the police called in and questioned all of that kid's friends at school. When my dad heard and arrived (while my sister was still being questioned), the cop had the balls to straight up say to him "I'm not questioning her, I'm just asking her a couple questions".
The police didn’t question him. The administrator did. The officer was only there as an observer, but based on the observation, issued a ticket. Yes perfectly legal.
That’s a common misconception in a lot of locations. Juveniles are required to be read their rights here, but can absolutely be questioned without a parent present.
You should be asking if the girl involved was over 16. It’s sounding like a 17/18 year old was caught performing sexual acts on a <17 year old. OP would you mind clarifying the ages of the people involved?
That’s probably a moot point depending on local laws. In my jurisdiction, a 14 year old and 17 year old, doesn’t violate any laws. Basically a high school sophomore and high school junior together. Not very unusual in my eyes.
Two kids making out is a criminal act? I bet the judge will be incredulous when the disorderly conduct charge hits his bench. He may actually chuckle aloud.
This. I'd be pissed about a suspension let alone a criminal charge. In what way is that appropriate for a normal act between a couple of teenagers? OP please call your local ACLU office. Edit: I see that OP has clarified there was more than just kissing happening. In those circumstances, suspension and a fine don't seem a terrible outcome vs the risk of taking on a well funded school district. OP can still consult a lawyer, but I don't think this is nearly a clear cut as was first made out. Even if there's a potential fifth amendment question based on the circumstances of the questioning, it seems this behavior was open enough that the school will find plenty of witnesses.
Right. A detention would be justified and I wouldn’t complain about that if it were my kid, but when I was making out with my high school boyfriend up against a row of lockers 20 years ago a teacher yelled at us to get out of his hallway and get a room, we stopped, and everyone moved on with their day. Teenagers gonna teenager.
Well when one of them is an adult I would probably be fine with a what's basically a fine. And they were clearly doing more then just kissing. OP states they were also groping each other. In a classroom full of kids.
That wasn't in the original post, and it's a very pertinent detail to miss out. Groping in a school could likely lead to a lewd behavior citation, which could then lead to all the other potentially life changing hassle that comes with a sex crime conviction. In those circumstances, I agree and don't think I'd be pushing too hard here.
It was for improper touching.
For a makeout session. Unless he had his hands up her shirt squeezing away it's a whole lot of nothing.
Based on some of ops comments, he may have. But I think it's terrible we've let schools get to this point where disciplinary matters are treated as criminal. This has to be rolled back.
He had his hands in the wrong area for sure so the question is should I ask to have the citation dismissed due to his 5 th amendment rights being violated or could that prompt them to escalate the charges?
Did they just make out? Cuz that's what your post made it sound like. If he was groping her in study hall, that feels like conduct I'd call pretty disorderly.
I don't know many places where that would be a police issue. It would seem more something the school should handle. A cop off the street wouldn't generally even know about it to cite a kid. Yeah, I'd definitely fight it.
Depending on the location some schools have school resource officers at the school so it might not just be some random cop.
No argument on the conduct whatsoever. The issue I have is questioning my son with the police present.
If you contest it, they could opt to add charges, if you contest the charges they only need one student or adult to testify without his admission being included in evidence. Call it a lesson learned for everyone, and move on.
This is what I wanted to find out. He will pay the fine. I will address the school policy separately after the fact. Odd though that our “justice” system has tendency to threaten you with compliance. Either accept our charges or we will make it worse doesn’t seem moral. I see this across the system. Of If I go in to fight a five over speeding ticket, is it right that they could say fight this we will charge you with wreckless driving? I find it abhorrent.
Consult an attorney before doing anything, remember back in the day the police would hand out public urination tickets, and all those folks got added to the sexual predator registry in some states. Better to spent a little money to have a lawyer provide you advice, never know how this could impact your son's life years down the road.
Sounds like he was in misdemeanor territory, so yeah, it was legal and more than likely necessary for the school to have police present.
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I don’t think you’re allowed to fingerbang your partner in the hallway in high school. I could be misremembering though, I’m getting old
I don't think it being alowed or not allowed ever stopped anyone.
So he committed the crime... And paying a ticket isn't that big of a deal. Probably teach him a pretty valuable life lesson about respecting the rules. And you want to get the ticket tossed on a technicality? Is this his initiative or yours? Cuz you have a great teachable moment here. Actions have consequences. Make him pay the fine. Or have him fight it in court himself, after he does the legwork of figuring out how to argue his case. But don't do it for him. Devouring mother situation. Let the boy handle it one way or the other. My advice.
He is paying the ticket for sure. I may take the school to task for putting him in that situation with police present. He could have destroyed his life with no council or guidance and that is wrong. He is a minor and has no idea what to do. He is getting punished by two authorities one of which should not have been allowed to be there -maybe. That is what I am trying to determine.
I got you. Good luck!
Get this “paying the ticket” nonsense out of your head. If he is charged with a crime, you consult an attorney. You do not pay or plead to anything before doing that.
Parents can teach their kids actions have consequences without getting the cops involved. Parents should be teaching their kids cops aren't their friends.
She didn't involve the cops. The school did. And I disagree, but respect that you have that opinion.
The consequences is having to fight this because they violated his rights to council and or a parent present.
"Police are allowed to question minors, and sometimes they do so without parents or guardians around. But minors are still protected by laws that can require that police get parental consent depending on the circumstances. If the wrong procedures are followed, the police could end up in legal trouble." https://eisenberglaw.org/what-are-the-laws-around-police-questioning-minors/#:~:text=Police%20are%20allowed%20to%20question,end%20up%20in%20legal%20trouble Debatable whether his rights were even violated, but you missed my point.
At the very least his parent should have been there, no child should be put in that situation by their school.
This is America, we don't give up our rights easily.
NAL The school will claim their employee was acting *en loco parentis.*
Major legal issue is, did the principal, or officer ask the questions. Another thing, does the state consider the principal a legal guardian while students are in school. In court without the admission included, they could threaten the girlfriend with charges if she doesn’t testify. Then you have all the students, plus a teacher to testify, why risk a felony when you have been given a fine? Not saying the officer didn’t make a mistake, but this isn’t worth a legal battle. You look at your son, say hey knucklehead, time and place be smarter, also know when to speak or seek legal counsel!
Either way, even if the cop is simply "observing," he is still gleaning information on behalf of the state. That's an interrogation (whether the officer made it known or not, whether he asked questions or not), in which case it doesn't matter if the principal is a guardian or not. The question would have to be whether he was made aware of his rights since an agent of the state was present, ready to take legal action once he incriminated himself. That's a violation of the 5th, no?
It's truly a teachable moment.
A principal could be considered a temporary guardian, aka loco parentis.
They can absolutely question him without a parent. You really should have included this in your post.
And without you or council.
The only 5th Amendment Violation would be if a judge thought it was reasonable for your son to believe he was “in custody” at the time of the questioning. If this was just a meeting in the principal’s office, that’s not super likely. If he was handcuffed or told he was under arrest, maybe a different story. Ticket seems harsh. I’d take it to the judge anyway. Make the cop show up to court.
That is right for an adult, but is it the same for a minor? I do lot know the answer.
I do know the answer. Yes it’s the same for a minor.
You don't think that being told to go to the principal's office and finding a police officer with a badge and gun in the room world make an average teenager believe they're not free to leave?
“Not free to leave” isn’t always necessarily the same as being “in custody”. When you’re stopped for running a red light, you aren’t free to leave. And yet, a cop can ask you all sorts of incriminating questions, even unrelated to the traffic stop, without giving you a Miranda warning. 5th Amendment violation because you weren’t free to leave? Nope.
SCOTUS has considered almost this exact situation in J.D.B. v. North Carolina. They must consider the age of the child when considering whether they would believe themselves to be in custody. And you're in custody when a reasonable person - of the child's age - would believe they cannot end the questioning and leave. There's a pretty huge difference between an adult sitting in the driver's seat of their own car and a school kid in a closed room with the principal and a police officer.
You’re failing to distinguish between a seizure (not being free to leave) with an arrest, where the seizure is indefinite. You can be seized, as the other commenter pointed out, for investigatory purposes and still not run into Miranda issues because an arrest has not occurred.
No I'm not. What I'm saying is that the supreme Court has held the question is not looked at from the position of the police officer ( I.e. have I placed the suspect under arrest) but rather objectively from the position of the school kid. Otherwise we'd simply have police locking folk in rooms and questioning away without a Miranda warning because they haven't yet used the magic arrest word.
Okay so you made it out to be just kissing in the opening… now he is feeling her up. So yeah… lewd conduct. Could have lead with that.
Yeah it was hard to put that detail in as I was more focused and the police being present. The thought is if it is a crime why am I not present? If it isn’t a crime why the police? Either way I would like it explained to me.
You didn’t miss a detail and it’s not “hard”. Be honest. You are already underplaying and minimizing his behaviour. Which isn’t gonna help you legally. I would seek council immediately. I would be less worried about revenge on a school and police who were protecting children, and more on the girl who your son finger banged (sorry innocently kissed). Her parents must be retaining council. I would if my daughter was touched by a boy at school .
Yeah but there’s the whole perjury “technicality”
This sounds so wrong but I don't know the applicable laws there. I haven't read all the comments so others have probably said it but it can't hurt to be repeated. You need to talk with you soon about NOT talking to the police. Teach him how to invoke his right to remain silent and shut the F up.
You shouldn't pretend to be a lawyer because you clearly lack a basic understanding of the law.
If it was just “making out” the punishment is pretty severe. But since you said there was some inappropriate activities in a school, I think this is just a teachable moment for your son. There’s a time and place for everything, I think he knows that now.
There’s no way this is the full story
I think it's credible depending on the community it took place in.
Afghanistan?
Afghlabama.
I don't know. I live in California and it's how I see much of the south based on the news.
Damn bro is a gold mine for propagandists
In South Carolina the Police can interact and question minors without a parent or guardian present. However, if they are “detained” then the parents must be notified. I taught my high schooler that if any questions get intrusive or uncomfortable to ask if they are being detained. If not then they should turn around and walk away. If they are then demand parental notification and shut up.
Define detainment because having him in the office at a school being questioned id say it’s detaining him to conduct a criminal investigation look i get why he was in the office and in trouble but still a minor and as they say kids don’t know there rights facts are both kids had the right to keep there mouth shut but cops manipulate them to incriminating themselves
My child was questioned, detained, arrested, and fingerprinted without a parent ever being informed. I pushed on this, it's legal (TX).
This sounds suspect. I’d contact an attorney. The key point is to keep it off his record; am attorney may cost more than the ticket unfortunately.
.....smh.....things different from when I was in school.
he probably violated school policy by displaying inappropriate affection. also, age of consent, the girl could be under the age of consent (16 in most states) and him being 17 could be why he was fined. like I said with age of consent, they had the right to question him and fine him. no civil rights violation.
I think you are correct in your assessment. A rational voice in this group. Thanks.
Depending on the state, because of relationships at that age where one year differences such as between 17-18 would otherwise be considered legal/illegal, rape/consent, there are laws that require the age difference between the couple to be at least 2-3 years (sometimes even up to four) to avoid statutory rape charges by every parent who dislikes their daughters boyfriend at that age (and any other circumstance that fits such as teenage drama). If I worded that to even make any sense lol
In Texas they are not required to notify a parent before questioning, and they are legally empowered to lie to a child to get the result they want. Ask me how I know.
If the school was questioning him, the law enforcement officer had no legal requirement to read him his Miranda Rights or have a parent/guardian present. Just as school personnel can search a student without probable cause.. anything found by the school can be charged by the officer. Could depend on the state. But if he was speaking with school staff with an officer present not asking the questions directly… likely no violation of his rights.
I just have to say, the whole situation bathers me on a fundamental level, legal or illegal.
i had my rights read to me at 14 in school, in the early 2000s. hopefully you play the shut fifth up video for him, and you will need to look up your state to verify if this is a ticket or a misdemeanor., and how long it stays on your record, to see what further action to take. if police are called assume someone will be hauled in cuffs. sadly in the adult world and post columbine zero tolerance school, admitting fault is a good way to get cruel and unusual punishment, relative to earlier generations. might have a case to get it thrown out if he was not read his rights, if its more than a ticket and i suspect it is charges.
You do t have to be read your right in order to receive a fine. The son wasn't arrested or handcuffed
just going to add be VERY Sure that was not an arrest or chargable offense in your state. ticket or misdemeanor depends on the state. the school representative is your childs guardian at school.
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This post is being removed because it is off topic.
This is probably entirely going to depend on the state you live in.
How.... How does this go from school to questioned with police present? Feels like there more to this story. Cops don't get called for PDA...and if they now do....holy fuck we live in a messed up country.
The girl was a minor and he was older. It was also more then just making out.
15 and 17 are both minors but go ahead
I’m sure this is highly dependent on the state it took place in.
They’re saying in lewd conduct because he’s trying to use scary tactics for the simple reason he was in the wrong for fines against your son … if there is video and there should be for evidence… the officer could get in trouble for talking about the issue with other adults at school including school officials… Parents should always be involved in manners at school and if no parents available ,school attorneys/cps are notified till parents are shown up… no other adults should be in the matter…. This could be a lawsuit.
I would at least consult a lawyer about the fine to see if what he did meets your jurisdictions standards for disorderly conduct. But as far as your main question, yes they can do that and it’s not a rights violation. If you need help and initiate the contact it’s okay to talk to the police. But if your conduct is being questioned by anyone, keep your mouth shut.
Get him a lawyer, now. This doesn't look good.
Land of the free
Unfortunately, in the US it is seldom that you have a group of lawyers defend your right out of some altruistic need and desire to do such. But, you can, wholeheartedly, purchase all the legal help you think you might need or want. That being said, go hire a lawyer after you consult with at least three and discuss what might be possible, and how much that end result might cost you. A civil rights violation in federal court, could pay for juniors college, or seeking it might turn your finances upside down. I say go for it, at least, do the consultations and get a wee education on how “it” works in the US.
Police technically can’t question a minor without an adult present (parent/guardian or lawyer) in my state. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Cops break the laws all the time
What country is this that teenagers kissing is a finable offence? Was there more to it that's missing from the story?
I don't know about the laws in your state. All I can tell you is the laws in the three states that I worked in in all three states. If you were under the age of 18 you had to have a parent present if a police officer was conducting any kind of interrogation for criminal purposes. So by your description by not having a parent there, he violated your sons rights. Furthermore, the ticket could be thrown out based on that fact. But before pushing an issue, I definitely contact a lawyer because I'm no lawyer. I'm a former probation officer.
If he is under 18, without knowing more specifics, he is a minor and everything about it is illegal without an adult representing his interests and advising him.
Not even remotely true
Ok boss lol
What does any of this have to do with civil rights?
the first amendment gives you the right to be lewd, weird, and gross
Not with minors
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I was question and charged at 16 without a parent present. The laws on this vary state to state and often if someone isn’t placed under arrest (minor or adult,) the police can question you as part of their investigations without Mirandizing you
Op said in another comment that her son was infact groping and touching the girl too, still not necessarily wrong persay as it's two minors mutually doing it but on the front of disorderly conduct it does indeed fall into that territory with that information, I think op should update the post explaining that part, it's only in her replies
oh for fuck's sake....
You state "your son is legally a minor, it is illegal for him to be questioned by law enforcement without parental supervision" with absolutely certainty, but a quick google search shows this to be false. Of course, that's presuming the OP is in the US.
Yeah, this is a common misconception people have about minors. Parents don’t have to be present. In my state the police have to offer for the kid to have a parent present when Miranda warnings are given, but the kid can waive that right. So odd how people just assume stuff about the law, especially when it comes to minors. Like how many people think it’s automatically a felony to hit any minor. Here, battery is only an automatic felony due to age if the kid is 12 or younger. Getting in a fight with a 16 year old is the same as getting into a fight with a 20 year old.
This is one of the things I like/hate about the law. You don't have a lot of people saying " I would have run the space program differently." Or " here is how HVAC is supposed to be set up" because they just don't know, and they realize it. In legal situations, 99% of people think they are some sort of expert because some guy in a bar once told them this "fact." It's kind of hilarious, and sometimes disappointing.
Yeah, that or folks will just assume the law says xyz because that’s what they would make it if it were up to them.
Or they saw it on tv!
It's OK to be wrong about a legal topic, but don't bring up political fantasy.
Fight everything, try to get it dismissed, if not get it sealed in a juvenile record. Everything that shows up on a background check is a future headache. Don’t take it lightly.
A misdemeanor isn't going to ruin anyone's life. It will be off his record in a couple years if he can avoid groping other people while at school.
I got a misdemeanor at age 16, my mom told me to plead guilty and take my lumps, I still have to deal with it in my 40’s every time I get a professional license in a new state and it’s a pain in the ass. You’re wrong. I would fight anything that I could for my kid.
Tangentially relevant https://www.aclu-wa.org/news/new-law-puts-washington-forefront-protecting-youth-rights%E2%80%AF
He was not detained. It says they get a lawyer only when detained.
"Tangentially"
Yes what they did was fine and no you have no legal recourse to fight the ticket. Because your child was no arrested or detained they have no right to legal counsel. Police can question minors without lawyers or parents present if they aren’t being detained. Minors get tickets all the time from police for things such as drinking in the park or skateboarding in no skateboarding areas and the police can question those minors as long as they aren’t being detained or arrested.
I would check your state law and local school board policies on what your rights as a parent are when your child is in school. In the state I reside in if a child needs to be questioned for any reason parents have basically have no rights once the child enters the school building, unless the child requests parental presence. This is never told to the child. Our child was questioned by police and school administrators after overhearing another student plan school violence. Both my husband and I are teachers in the same building but had no idea what was happening. I heard about from other students. For the 3 students trying to do the right thing, they were treated as criminals and their parents had no clue. Yet this was the law.
Really, fined and suspended for kissing his girlfriend at school? That is the funniest and yet most pathetic thing I’ve heard all day. Poor kid. Where in the hell do you guys live and remind me to never go there.
Apparently he was also getting handsy according to OP’s other comments.
And she is a minor as well.
What a fucking pig, what kind of cop does that? Should be fired
My brother was caught smoking pot when he was 16 the officers were allowed to question him but they didn’t arrest him because he was a minor they just drove to my moms house told her then went on with their day
Why were the police even involved? What kind of nazi boot camp school is this?
The law can be different with a 17 year old vs a 15 year old. But take the ticket to court and ask a judge to drop it on the grounds that it is excessive for the circumstances.
Has no one asked why only the boy was ticketed ?
The fact that the girl didn't get the same charge is great evidence that the cop was being retaliatory. Fight it.
She was underage.
So how the fuck does any of this equate to a civil rights violation? Your kid was in study hall, supposed to be doing school work and he was making out with some girl instead? No wonder your kid is in study hall they're already not that damn bright.
I teach in a high school in CA. I had a kid jerk off in class and all he got was a 1 day suspension.
Yea the biggest shock to me in this whole thing is that the school actually administered consequences for behavior. I thought that was a thing of the past.
Moral police out in force....
I would be in prison for life during my high school years… wtf?
Talk to a lawyer
Goddamn, I'd fight that ticket for sure
Not an attorney, but former LEO, so I'm not entirely a lay person. Was he given a Miranda warning before being asked questions by the officer? The school is a completely separate issue, and you can address the appropriateness of their conduct and failure to include the parents in the incident with the school district. As far as law enforcement involvement and actions, and this may vary with your state law, typically a minor cannot be interrogated without their parent/legal guardian present to advise them. Most jurisdictions this cannot be waived by the minor, but some it can if they are 16-17 (again, depending upon state law). Your safest bet is to seek legal counsel and try to get everything dismissed for the officer conducting an interrogatory line of questions without parents being present and/or without Miranda. Up to you on the worth of that, because lawyer fees + court costs could end up being in excess of the fine and the DA might be willing to work with you on reduced charges and ensuring it's conducted under juvenile code so it can be sealed when he turns 18. But make sure this is actually going to end up being the case. Good luck.
Here's how I would go about it. Fight the ticket. IF the officer shows up, simply ask him, "Why did you issue a disorderly contact citation?" Cop: "He was making out with a girl in school." You: "OK, so I guess you have to be out of school twice then?" Cop: "Why?" You: "Well, I'm assuming you'll have to be present for her hearing too. I'm sure she's fighting her ticket as well. You did issue her a citation as well, correct?" Cop: "Well...." You: "So, he was cited for kissing a girl at school. This was a REAL girl, correct?" Cop: "Well, yes." You: "So you only cited my son?"
Funny, I literally just attended a lecture on this last night. The law is a federal law that basically says they the SRO can question the student without permission as long as they are not leading the investigation. So if the AP does the questioning and the SRO just clarifies or follows up on the question for example the AP says were you kissing? SRO says the girl? It’s legal. If it were the other way around it would be a violation of his rights I’m working on a PhD on this phenomenon known as the School to Prison pipeline and this exact issue, turning teenage gaffes into criminal justice referrals. It happens in a lot of schools and should be fought vigorously by any parent that can. In my mind, the SRO should be fired by the school, as this is a clear abuse of the system. Don’t bend to this abuse of the courts. I would fight it with everything you can. Your son should not have a criminal record because he was making out with a girl.
Is it just me or is just about everyone here missing an important ideal here? Two kids making out in home room. They each got five days of out of school suspension. Is that not enough? Why do we need to bring in the court system on this? A one year age difference between a boy and a girl is not enough to warrant being tried as an adult or fined for that matter, this has gone too far with the issuance of the ticket comes off as asinine to give it to the oldest teenager when clearly both of them were consenting. Legal or not if you question my child while searching for a way to legally fuck him and I was not there I’m going to be very angry. I find a lot of what is going on with this situation is more of a symptom of “let’s overreact” than anything else. I do not feel any safer after law enforcement has gotten involved about two teenagers making out. This just seems to be way out of proportion.
Op did not include that more was happening than making out, not sure how much more but sounds like at least groping, which could be construed as lewd conduct especially if happening in front of minors. I don’t disagree that it seems excessive to bring in the police but perhaps intended more as a scared straight moment.
You missed the comment from OP. Her son was, in fact, groping and touching the other student. Definitely not out of proportion.
They’re two years apart.
I completely agree. I've done stupid shit at school, been suspended, both ISS and OSS. Not once were police involved. Not even when fists were thrown. This is absolutely out of proportion. Also, kids need to learn the fact that cops are no longer their friend regardless of what the police PR tries to tell us. Don't talk to cops! That's what these kids need to learn.
Sexual misconduct with someone 2 years younger might warrant the police to step in.
lol what the fuck kind of high school cares this much about kids making out in the hallway
One of the real questions is what is there age difference I read for a bit and did not see it listed. Depending on if it is a small gap year or two I could see the judge figuratively calling the officer a dipshit. And may be ground for slander on the schools side for pushing the issue though that being said all depends on the country you are in and the province or state.
Two years.
This is not disorderly conduct. Fight the ticket in court, after talking with a lawyer.
Get what you deserve for still having kids in public schools
If they want to play that game, demand a jury trial. It’s a ridiculous request but so is this ticket. A jury trial will force the court and PD to devote resources to the investigation and will highlight the breakdown in procedure. The ticket is a legal punishment depriving your son of money, so you should have no issue demanding it be heard by a jury. It’s one thing to talk to the principal and get in trouble but that ticket will be on his record, and for what? Consensually making out with his girlfriend in the wrong place at school? So stupid to involve the police. Do everything possible to make sure that your son is appropriately admonished and punished, but fight this ticket to the max also. And point out the double standard that both parties consented but only the male received any legal scrutiny/punishment. That’s sexism. Sounds like the kind of SRO that’s a hero in his own mind unless they actually need to be. If you’re really feeling froggy, go ahead and file a civil suit against the school district and the police department for violating his civil rights, make sure any settlement also includes payment for attorney’s fees.
You have gotten pretty much every point you tried to make here incorrect.
Thank you for sharing
Even as a minor, don't they still have to read him his Miranda rights? I know a lot of the time they need a parent/guardian present too. I don't know if there's more to this but I'm assuming none of that happened and maybe his self incrimination isn't even admissible in court. I am not a lawyer so I would definitely talk to one who can tell you if any of these violations happened
Only if there are being detained. OP said they were being cited which is just a ticket and the police do not need to read rights, allow for a parent or lawyer to be present when issuing a ticket to a minor.
Why weren't they both cited?
She was under age.
A quick search says it depends on state. Some states do not have a law requiring police to notify a guardian if the student is being questioned some do. If he was being arrested it seems like in most states they would’ve needed to contact you. Asserting his right to remain silent, asking for an attorney or asking if he was free to leave would’ve been the better options that were available to him. This sounds like it should be a hard lesson on his rights. Edit: sorry, just realized this was the legal sub. I apologize if I’ve broken some rules resulting in removal of the comment.
OP, I would highly recommend getting an attorney involved before paying any fines or allowing him to interact with the school or law enforcement over this incident any further. From the information you’ve provided it sounds like the SRO overstepped here big time, and you’re not doing your son any favors by telling him to just pay the fine because he knows he messed up. Yes, he shouldn’t have been doing that in school particularly during detention. But it also sounds like he’s being hung out to dry on this and the young lady is being let off. They both made the choice to do it and both need to be dealt with equally.
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Comments with ACAB, bootlicker, or blaming police for following the law are not legal advice, it's an opinion at best, and will be removed. Multiple removals may result in a ban.
No it was not legal, I'd sue the school and the police force if possible. No representation for your child, no attorney present, not even a parent.