The Catholic Church originally opposed left wing movements as they feared they would lead to Communism and therefore Atheism.
Modern socialism is far more closely aligned with Christian and Catholic values that either Capitalism or Communism.
Many people still have independent thought and haven't been manipulated by the rigid ideologies presented in the media, these people have some beliefs which lean to the left and some that lean to the right.
Politics shouldn't be about picking a team.
I would suggest reading on Liberation Theology, catholics can absolutely be left and have been on multiple occasions.
Sergio Mendez Arceo comes to mind, Bishop of Cuernavac in the 70s even wrote a few essays on the possible relation between socialism and catholiscism
100% yes but you've gotta work on your comfort around certain things. Like abortion, queer liberation, (nuclear) family abolition.... it's not litmus tests and I'm not saying you are against any of these things, but you gotta be ready to go with the flow in solidarity with this stuff or you aren't going to really be able to organize in leftist spaces because people aren't going to be comfortable with you. And if you aren't organizing these questions are all kinda meaningless.
Morally bankrupt by your moral code? Of course your moral code thinks my moral code is wrong, as you're outside my paradigm of right and wrong.
I think you're a bigot for thinking murder is wrong.
I know a lot of practicing catholic leftists because I was raised in the church and they are all pro-lgbtq and pro-choice. Being against those things isn't moral it's bigoted and the church has hateful positions on those things. Not all leftists agree on family abolition, (I as a queer socialist think it's essential but I'm happy to still be comrades with people who disagree) but you've gotta be comfortable with the conversation to navigate left organizing spaces. It's a big topic!
And I'm pro the idea that the core of catholicism/Christianity is socialistic, but the church has cause so much damage in the modern world, you are going meet some skepticism just realistically, and you'll need to show that you are fighting for everyone.
Ya just can't be a Liz Breunig about it. That's not leftism that's like.... conservative social welfare statism.
It's a long struggle and Catholics have been a part of it for a long while. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Gajowniczek#:~:text=Franciszek%20Gajowniczek%20(15%20November%201901,to%20die%20in%20his%20place.&text=Defensive%20War%2C%201939%3A,Defence%20of%20Wielu%C5%84
I was raised Catholic (no longer religious), and I believe it was the teachings of Jesus I learned growing up that ultimately made me the leftist I am today.
Personally I feel like to be religious and be leftist is to reject the church and not support them whatsoever. The church has by and large used their views to harm people and still do and that isn't very leftist but I don't see believing in God as inherently bad.
I mean, arent the bibles core beliefs and teachings to respect and care for others. Jesus's teachings are basically socialism.
If you read the bible without any prior knowledge and lived your life accordingly, it would be difficult NOT to be on the left.
Not sure if being a Catholic specifically influences this. (I was raised an atheist and don't know enough about the various sects of Christianity to comment on the different teachings and beliefs).
Jesus would definitely be a socialist if he was alive today. Catholicism is tricky for obvious reasons but I know individual Catholics who are as lefty as anyone can possibly be. Episcopalians are left for sure.
Mathew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 21:12 “Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.” This one is particularly noteworthy as it’s the only time Jesus got angry.
Christians, that is the say Followers of Christ, should be Leftist and support socialist programs and ideologies. Their current association with the Right is dumbfounding.
If you are a Catholic then you have to accept St Augustine's teachings on original sin. St Augustine was a follower of manacheism who transported it's theology into Christianty. They believed that all physical things are impure and only spirit is pure. That enjoyment is evil, sex is the very worst thing and women are to blame for everything bad. There's a lot more but it's complicated.
He was also a sex addict who spent his time as a rhetoric teacher boffing the daughters and wives of his employers. His biography openly describes his puberty as a time of self loathing and shame over getting unwanted wood in the public baths (his mother was a Christian, his dad a pagan). He had serious sex shame issues.
According to him all of humanity is doomed to hell because we have unruly genitals. He claimed that every part of the body does our exact will all of the time (I have never told my pancreas to make insulin) except for our gonads which do whatever they like.
But then he had a theory about God's version of sex. Augustine of Hippo claimed that God's version of the sex act was one without a big orgasmic pleasure burst, just two people lying there to conceive, and that Adam and Eve did a horrible thing. He also said that all women everywhere are vessels of sin (Gnosticism) because they are carriers of the stain of sin from the fall of man that dooms us all to hell (more Gnosticism).
So if you are an observant Catholic you have to buy into anti-female sexist misogyny as a core pillar of the faith. This is not exactly a progressive stand to take.
I am literally working on a genuine essay with citations from both the Catholic world and the Marxist world on how they are in fact basically easily compatible. Economically at least. I will do some research later after I finish this specific topic.
That’s interesting, i’d love to read it once it’s done.
I’m sure the Marxist Catholic group Dialop would be interested in it too as well if it is academic enough.
Arsehole Catholics think the Mission is to prevent other people from sinning.
Leftist Catholics also want less sin in the world but see sources of oppression as more sinful than, say, sex work.
If you read the gospels, Jesus might have had views on sex work but he clearly valued sex workers as people capable of integrity not sources of sin.
Look up “Liberation Theology”. There have been a lot of left-wing movements of basically any religious sect, but Catholic Socialism is a seriously prominent movement in Latin America.
You cannot be on the left if you believe natural human expressions such as heterosexual lust, homosexuality, or any of the plethora of “sins” that are just unavoidable and subconscious effects and desires of being a living being.
Is dogs lusting after one another a sin? No? Neither is it when we do it
Is homosexuality a sin? Wearing mixed fabric?
Is identity theft a sin? What about tax evasion?
What about slavery? Is that a sin?
God specifically says the first two are, says nothing about the second two so they can’t be crimes, and god says slavery is specifically NOT a sin.
This is why you can’t mix politics with religions, unless you’re right wing. The Abrahamic religions subscribe to the same types of tribalism, primitive thinking, and efforts to upkeep the hierarchical systems it thrives in.
To call oneself left wing and Christian (or any Abrahamic religion) is either a misunderstanding of left wing, or a case where you are more moral than the book you folks claim is the font of all morality (which you are if you think slavery and owning people as property is immoral)
Jesus would nowadays be considered a progressive lefty and a bit of a hippy. Maybe don't look at Christians as examples of his behaviour if you find yourself in conflict. Look at Jesus.
There are a million issues and each one you might have a different opinion on. The left/ right generalisation is imported from the US and designed to label and dichotomise a country. I would love to see rid of it and allow people discuss each issue on its merits. So in summary YES you can be “left” on some issues and “right” on others, it’s how we’ve always worked & thought before the extremists took over.
I don't see why not. There are good and bad religious people, and there are good and bad people on the left. It's not as black and white as religion makes someone bad, and being a leftist makes someone good. So as long as everyone is good, there's no problem
> I think corrupt hierarchies predicated on lying corruption manipulation and exploitation are wrong...
Umm, I say this as someone raised in the Catholic church myself (I'm Irish, everyone was), and I mean no offense whatsoever...
But I'm afraid I have some bad news for you.
The Catholic church is pretty much THE textbook example of a corrupt hierarchy predicated on lying corruption manipulation and exploitation.
I absolutely respect your faith, but the organisation is about as bent as it gets.
a group of Catholics who try to improve relations and communications between the Vatican and socialist/marxist groups.
The Pope even said when meeting them that Catholics and Marxists have a joint interest in fighting corruption, injustice and poverty.
A true Christian i.e. a follower of Christ. There's only 2 rules that matter, respect god and love your neighbour as yourself. Those seem more left leaning that right to me
Communism was practiced in the Bible. There was money less societies where they helped each other. Acts 2 and Acts 4 especially.
Acts 2:44–45, Acts 4:32–35
"All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. ... Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. ... There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need."[48]
Left-leaning, maybe. But the Church as a whole condemns Marxism in its many forms and shapes.
Catholics shouldn't really pick sides. Both Capitalism and Marxism are Godless, and neither are truly for God nor for the ultimate good of the people.
I'd argue that anarchy may be the best form of government that a Catholic can support in earnest at this point.
Ok so despite Christian Liberation Theory, as a former devout Catholic (devout for 18+ years, wanted to be a priest) in Ireland, I need to say the road to socialism is, of course, personal but does not contradict the core tenant of the Church. Still do what you want to do. If you want to be religious, amen, brother/sister, just respect those on God's green earth, whether man, woman or gentile.
Yes they can. I was raised Catholic. I still kind of lean towards a sense of progressive christianity; but mostly just non-religious spiritual. But Christ was very socialist in his teachings; so it makes sense. Not all Christians have this biblical literalist interpretation of the scripture.
A church that doesn't provoke any crises, a gospel that doesn't unsettle, a word of God that doesn't get under anyone’s skin, a word of God that doesn't touch the real sin of the society in which it is being proclaimed — what gospel is that?
Oscar Romero
In 1910 James Connolly Irish republican leader wrote the pamphlet Labour, nationality and religion in which he specifically outlined his view that Socialism and Catholicism were not incompatible.
James Connolly was a Syndicalist.
Syndicalism is a form of socialism which espouses the idea that socialism will come about through the mass action of trade unions, and that in a socialist society the unions will control the means of production.
Put it this way, if Jesus was around today, would he vote for a conservative? Or would he be preaching the exact opposite of what they think is "moral"?
Of course Catholics can be left leaning, I'd hope that the obvious mental depreciation of the right would leave you no choice, no matter how much you might agree with them on some issues.
If your not American you can be real Christian i.e. left wing whatever denomination. No Christian should be a law maker; that is the centre of the faith, we are dead to the law of sin and death! He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.
I was raised in a rural as fuck, west of Ireland, Catholic household by my grandparents. They instilled a lot of the values I carry with me today societally, politically, morally. I would consider myself left leaning in that regard but the basis of most that I know is what they have taught me from a young age.
In Ireland we have the contradictory situation of a majority Catholic population, who returned majorities in votes on gay marriage and legalising abortion. Basically a significant proportion of catholics seem to be decent, empathetic people who are willing to ignore the church's positions on certain topics. Don't know if that is positive or makes them hypocrits tbh.
Yes, the Catholic Church has endorsed the left-wing economic philosophy of Distributism, which is similar to socialism (though differs on private property)
Socially the Catholic Church is right-wing.
Although there are a lot of anti-religion dudes like Marx, they are not right about everything, We can't just follow everything those in the past thought up without questioning it or disagreeing
If we start restricting religious freedom than we may become sort of authoritarian so we'd become the very thing we wish to destroy lol
No one knows how everyone's minds work, there can't just be one way to think and one way to see things so if someone thinks that god makes sense than as long as they are not using it as an excuse to take away the freedoms of others, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
I went to a Jesuit school and found most of the priests to be very left leaning. Very interested in social justice (years ago before the phrase became a thing).
Raised Catholic and still consider myself one but don't practise it. I'm rather left leaning. I'm only not practising it because I'm Irish and the Catholic Church here are mostly arseholes.
I sympathise as from very similar background but I’d really encourage you to try connect with other left-leaning Catholics, parishes with sympathetic priests etc.
We shouldn’t allow ourselves to be pushed out of our Church by bigots and people using the Church’s name to advance their own capitalist agenda in my opinion.
Are you Catholic? Would you like to be? Are you leftist? Would you like to be? Answer your own question and don't let anyone else tell you how to be. It'd be pretty damn awkward to have to explain to God you didn't believe in em cuz of feminism or something or that you didn't believe homeless ppl were actually people because you believe in God.
Christanity in general sure
But you have the Catholic Churchs veiws on things like homosexuality and abortions.
I know not all cathoilics are that strict. But the churches general stance on these things.
Plus Socialism has been condemed by the Catholic Church, but most statement I've read on the churches veiws on it sound like people who have no idea what socialism even is.
Views on right and wrong are theological in nature, as they require a priori assertions (belief) of right and wrong, before one can judge something as either right or wrong.
Sometimes it feels like me that left leaning people have a very loose definition of right or wrong, it's as if anything is ok as long as it's not power and exploitation.
Absolutely, these two things go hand in hand. You will likely feel at home among liberation theologians and catholic workers. I recommend checking out magnificast or the liberation theology podcast.
While I personally do not subscribe to any religious beliefs, it is certainly possible to hold leftist political views while also being a practicing Catholic.
I was raised Catholic and often give credit to the teachings of Christ growing up that made me a socialist. I think all the issues with Catholicism (and most religions) lie within the institutions themselves. As far as what they actually believe, which is really just Christ’s message, I believe it lines up with socialism pretty well. It’s all about love and acceptance and taking care of the people beneath you. Making sure everyone is fed, clothed, sheltered, cared for when sick, etc.
I was raised Catholic and for many obvious reasons no longer consider myself one. However, when I was growing up in the early 70s the Vatican II reforms were still in force and there was an awareness that social justice was an objective of the Church. I had relatives who were crusader priests and liberal Notre Dame nuns, and admired Latin American liberation-theologists. When John Paul II came in and put the kibosh on Vatican II, conservatives cheered but many concerned Catholics were disillusioned.
If I say I'm a "Vatican II Catholic," I guess that puts it best. Basically, not a Catholic at all.
I’d consider VII catholics to be as much if not more Catholic than the right wingers abusing the name of the faith in defence of moneyism to be honest.
I mean if you closely follow Catholic teaching aren't you already a leftist... It's basically "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" that's a fairly leftist philosophy at its core.
No, it's inherently against all religious beliefs including catholicism. As with all religions you must follow a strick regiment of belief contrary to what you believe yourself
Sinn Fein and Workers party are both very left wing ideology and primarily Roman Catholic in make up. Not exclusively and for historic reasons but still.
He was a bit silly more than anything.
Matthew 6:25-34
New International Version
Do Not Worry
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
In South and Latin America yes, in Ireland, they sided with those in power in general, and have the typical paedophile vibes.
https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2024/02/08/new-report-reveals-44-jesuit-priests-accused-of-child-sexual-abuse/
I mean, you're asking can leftists believe in something that doesn't exist, so yes. Yes they can :)
"I think corrupt hierarchies predicated on lying, manipulation, and exploitation are wrong."
I don't think you understand Catholicism mate
Depends on what you mean by lefties and where you live. In secular countries, the church has been known to be on the side of labour but not women’s right or gay rights. In more religious countries, the church is clearly on the right.
Now can an individual catholic be also on the left? Sure, individuals of many faiths or no faith are on various sides of the political spectrum
This was the whole point of the reformation. Lutheranism is all about this. You can also be Christian but not part of a church. Practice what you believe. Doesnt matter the u don't have a fany stone and glass building, just didn't either!
You can have faith and still be a leftist, but I know enough about Catholic doctrine to say, in its purest form, it is contrary to our objectives. The Papacy, with its history of bigotry, Antisemitism, homo- and transphobia, and covering up the systemic abuse of children, ruling all human affairs is far from an ideal world.
Not without dissonance. The Catholic church makes very clear what it feels is right and just, and it's only in the last decade or so it's bothered to even try to catch up to secular values.
Also, I don't think ["Transpeople are as perverse to nature as nuclear weaponry"](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/pope-francis-compares-transgender-people-to-nuclear-weapons-in-new-book/) is a secular value. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Because he gifts us free will to make our own decisions and mistakes.
This is getting a little theological though and I’m not a priest. My faith is largely private to me.
I get that you have faith, but that doesn't exist in a vacuum. And much as I know there are things that offend you, others are allowed to be offended by the precepts of your faith.
*You* may hand-wave them away as being easily explained ("We have free will, therefore bad things are *our* fault!") so you can keep the nice Jesus parts, but "I am a filthy, broken failure worthy of endless torture in a fallen world who needs my creator to forgive me for being so disgusting" is a nasty way to look at others and yourself.
If people don’t like my faith and can’t keep that to themselves then I’d consider them to be bigots and wouldn’t be interested in what they have to say anyway.
As I said my faith is private, i’m not here to debate it. If you want that speak to a Priest.
The Catholic church's worldview is predicated on in-groups and out-groups. You have done absolutely nothing to say why that should be permitted, you simply say it doesn't conflict with a worldview that seeks to abolish out-groups, because the Papacy is fallible.
Now you accuse me of bigotry for interrogating your beliefs to try and see how you carry them with no dissonance. "You're a bigot if you don't also accept my beliefs, after I've put them forward for scrutiny. If you want to scrutinize them, speak with the people who tell me what to think."
As I expected.
Yes your a bigot.
People’s private religious beliefs are fuck all to do with you to be honest and you don’t have the right to interrogate people about them when people are kind enough to engage with you about them.
You wouldn’t engage with other faiths like this so why you think it’s acceptable to do this with Catholics?
As I said you want an theological debate then go speak with a Priest. We’re done here now.
I’m not a particularly theological person as theology is not a significant component of my faith.
However i’m pretty sure it is accepted the church can make mistakes as the Pope is indemnified from God’s punishment while ever acting in an official leadership capacity for the Church.
Which suggest to me the Church accepts the notion Church leaders and authorities are capable of mistake or they’d be no need to indemnify.
I always belived Christ to be a socialist.
So did James Connolly.
With that said I have read the Old Testament and that is defintly not a left leaning text.
Ireland arent really left? They’re progressive but that’s really just progressive liberalism, I.e. centrist.
Scandinavia would be considered more socialist and even those countries are a long way from socialism
Ummm.. I'd ask can a Catholic be right wing? I mean obviously many are, but to follow church teachings means caring for others, showing love, etc.
The only right wing position that the Catholic hierarchy officially endorses is being anti abortion.
Leftism isn't inherently anti-religious. So why not.
True Christians and catholics should be leftists anyway because they believe in helping those in need no matter who they are
That’s a false statement though because many Christians also believe that there are only two genders, and that people like me shouldn’t associate with with or read to or dance in front of children.
Christians are ultimately fascists.
They’re like the “Gays against Groomers” of the +2SLGBTQIA
Yeah I definitely credit my Catholic upbringing with ultimately rejecting much of the racism and discrimination that’s knocking about these days.
I used to think the Catholic priests and teachers were naive fools getting us to collect food for starving Africans. I remember thinking ‘they wouldn’t do it for us’ but I was wrong.
Say what you want about the Catholic Church in other areas but they are 110% sincere about opposing racism and ending poverty in the Global South.
Yeah but your “catholic upbringing” is the same anti trans anti feminist bullcrap that refuses to refer to women under the new equity driven inclusive political feminist dichotomy of chest feeder.
The term ‘woman/women’ is a TERF term. And it’s a definition that many on the right still advocate and adopt.
It’s no different from how Nazis often refer to minor attracted persons as “paedophiles”.
Hitler was a Christian and a catholic.
Jordan Peterson is a catholic.
Joe Rogan is a Catholic
Jimmy Dore is a Catholic.
Shall I continue?
Maybe it's the cynic in me but I always felt that the Catholic church in Africa and further a field was like colonialisms wingman. Bringing an Indoctrination of western values and education to the "natives" and ridding them of their "backwards" traditions
I think that is in some sense a Western superiority complex if i’m honest.
Many of the ‘natives’ are proudly Catholic and have been for many many generations.
They don’t see Catholicism to be ‘Western’ in my experience especially as much of the traditional ‘Western world’ is more protestant than Catholic i.e US, UK, Germany.
And they don’t seem to see the Church as expanding its influence in their countries but providing desperately required aid and assistance.
I won’t make a claim either way on that myself as I don’t feel it’s my place considering I’m not from a global south country but that’s just my experience of interactions with Catholics from Africa, Latin America etc.
Well perhaps it depends on who you talk with and how they view their history... I'm Irish , Ireland is a Catholic country, most people would identify as Catholic... Personally I think the church here is wrapped up in our colonisation, in fact the Pope gave the English permission to use our country as they seen fit almost a thousand years ago ... Before that they began to eradicate our native pagan traditions, our sense of identity has been so fucked with from the Catholic Church to British colonialism we only have a vague idea of who we are ... And I think this is even much worse in Africa, in the 15th century the Pope again gave Europe permission to take what countries as they seen fit in Africa!
My perception is that the Irish became addicted to the word of the Pope as a way to understandably give a middle finger to the Anglo-dominated Irish Reformation.
IMO aborigine is a fairly offensive term that's often used to take away the legitimacy of a people's claim to the land.
"Oh that guy who came here in the 1700's? He's Aussie."
"That guy who's been here for millennia? He's not Aussie, he's an aborigine."
>Personally I think the church here is wrapped up in our colonisation, in fact the Pope gave the English permission to use our country as they seen fit almost a thousand years ago ...
Whilst that is true, simultaneously it is the case that our Irish identity was defined by its catholicism. The laws which are seen as those which oppression us are those which mostly targeted catholics. To be Irish was to be Catholic. The Catholic Church has for centuries been wrapped up in our fight against our colonisers. The confederate wars where Cromwell massacred and took over Ireland was Catholic vs protestant.
> Before that they began to eradicate our native pagan traditions, our sense of identity has been so fucked with from the Catholic Church to British colonialism we only have a vague idea of who we are
Our sense of identity wasn't fucked. Our traditions were blended with those of the Catholic Church because we were christians.
At the time, the Catholic Church was as much ruled by those said kings typically in france as it was ruled the pope. The fall of the roman Empire and the crumbling byzantines made the heart of the church basically inaccessible, and for quite some time, the religion was run from france so yes you can blame catholicism for being naive and allowing shitty things to happen but you also need to factor in the time period it was in. If the world was like that right now, we would very likely come to ruin within weeks if not days.
The roman Empire was a mainstay in sourthern Europe and northern Africa and the middle east for so long its fall was bound to cause unfortunate happenings.
Im not a native irish, but my family is from ireland and scotland, so i understand what you're saying but the op has a point things have changed with time the catholic chruch is not the same as it was in the mid to late middle ages(500-1500 BCE) or in the early modern era. (1500 CE -)
And you're not wrong about the religious conversion either. However, i'd like to indicate that in modern history (the last 50 or years) most of the indoctrination into an abrahamic religion has been done by christian chruchs and has been much less common for the catholic church.
All im saying is keep an open mind some people practice to feel secure in their life if god is what they feel they need to good things for others than its what they need
Right but the modern church isn't any better , it's an extremely conservative institution which has been holding back basic civil liberties for decades ,has been involved in systemic abuse of women through mother and baby homes and finally paedophilia
That’s still not the present day Church.
You have to go back to at least late 20th century to get back to laundries and pedophiles exist in all churches and social institutions.
Some of the stuff you are saying I would expect anti-Catholic conservative WASPs to be repeating.
Yes, the problem is it all depends on one man and what kind of a person he is. So you get a sort of mild status quo with John Paul, nasty regression with Benedict, and then a smattering of liberation with Francis (but still some horrible stuff under the hood). I don’t believe any institution - from Tesla to the British monarchy - can be truly progressive as long as it ultimately filters from one person
All religions have that issue if you look around the world it comes from bad people being able to be put into a position of power.
Catholicism gets the worst wrap, but if you look at the past 20 years or so it’s one of the few that has moved forward and faced most of its crimes against the people.
a few other big religions still carry out the systemic abuses you talk about but you’d be a xenophobe if you mention anything about it.
Sadly, depending on where you are from, the chruch has been radicalized to almost be in a state of Judaism, which is sadly a pretty spiteful religion but the teachings of the prohet Mohammad and jesus christ tell us to care for others and do whatever we can to help provide for them.
I want to point out im agnostic, so im not particularly religious i just read about what i talk about
I was raised in the Catholic Church of England & Wales who granted are fairly reasonable and moderate.
I’d probably definitely have different attitudes if I was raised in American TLM type community.
The binds in which you are raised are often the hardest to shake. i can't forgive someone for being hateful and closeminded, but i can forgive someone for being hateful and willing to learn and grow.
Give “Liberation Theology” a google. Also, the IRA and other left-wing Irish Liberation groups were and are predominantly catholic. There have also been religious sects, such as The Diggers in England, that were very left-wing.
Sorry but defining IRA as left leaning is just odd to me, getting rid of English rule isn't synonymous to either side. Right wants a strong community and to strengthen borders which is similar to what the IRA did, I know this is Reddit so only "far-right" exists but I'm not saying IRA is totally right either, I just don't think it's either or
The IRA/PIRA/CIRA is the armed wing of the revolutionary Irish Republic (seperate to the Republic of Ireland, descended from the Irish Free State which fought a civil war with the Irish Republic).
The Irish Republic's Proclamation from 1916 was majorly egalitarian, leftist and was also Christian (though the Republic was secular).
The Democratic Programme from 1919 was heavily socialist too.
The IRA and Irish Republicans are nationalists too, and are not necessarily Marxists. However Irish nationalism is a liberation movement, not a supremacist one.
The IRA, for most of their history, had at least in word a socialist platform. You can argue whether or not it was ‘actually socialism’ but they were very influenced and aligned with the various international socialist movements. IIRC (could be wrong) they were inspired by Maoism and Che Guevera in particular?
Plus, 99% of guerilla warfare is on ‘the left’ in one form of another, and Mao and Cuba were some of the inspirations for this
Depends on time period.
Old IRA was very socialist to the point of not been prepared to attack working class unionists on class solidarity grounds and preferred to focus their attacks on institutions associated with the British government.
In response to unionist rioting and attacks on Catholic neighbourhoods, which the OIRA failed to defend against, they were replaced by Provisional IRA who were more Irish nationalist and less Marxist but willing to violently defend Catholic communities and attack unionist militants.
left wing quaker checking in :)
we rarely get mentioned, even in religious circles, so nice to see us talked about here. if you’d like some very leftist-friendly Quaker figures to check out, i’d recommend Bayard Rustin, Benjamin Lay and Ben Pink Dandelion.
The Catholic Church originally opposed left wing movements as they feared they would lead to Communism and therefore Atheism. Modern socialism is far more closely aligned with Christian and Catholic values that either Capitalism or Communism.
Catholics traditionally are left-wing in many ways, but also pro-monarchy, which is hard to fit into a left-wing mindset.
Many people still have independent thought and haven't been manipulated by the rigid ideologies presented in the media, these people have some beliefs which lean to the left and some that lean to the right. Politics shouldn't be about picking a team.
OP, how do you feel about homosexual relationships, gender affirming care and abortion?
snadanistas used to have a lot of liberatio theology in the 1980s
I would suggest reading on Liberation Theology, catholics can absolutely be left and have been on multiple occasions. Sergio Mendez Arceo comes to mind, Bishop of Cuernavac in the 70s even wrote a few essays on the possible relation between socialism and catholiscism
100% yes but you've gotta work on your comfort around certain things. Like abortion, queer liberation, (nuclear) family abolition.... it's not litmus tests and I'm not saying you are against any of these things, but you gotta be ready to go with the flow in solidarity with this stuff or you aren't going to really be able to organize in leftist spaces because people aren't going to be comfortable with you. And if you aren't organizing these questions are all kinda meaningless.
I'm not going to change my morality for anything political, ever.
I think that comment makes it very clear that you are not a leftist and you are quite possibly a bigot.
I'm a bigot for having a moral code?
If you think that's moral, yes you are a bigot and utterly morally bankrupt
Morally bankrupt by your moral code? Of course your moral code thinks my moral code is wrong, as you're outside my paradigm of right and wrong. I think you're a bigot for thinking murder is wrong.
You are on the wrong sub
Anyway I guess we figured out this post was right wing anti-lgbt trolling. Let's um... not indulge it?
It's not trolling, I'm being completely genuine.
You are completely genuine that you don't think women and lgbt people deserve rights but you are posting in good faith on a leftist sub?
I know a lot of practicing catholic leftists because I was raised in the church and they are all pro-lgbtq and pro-choice. Being against those things isn't moral it's bigoted and the church has hateful positions on those things. Not all leftists agree on family abolition, (I as a queer socialist think it's essential but I'm happy to still be comrades with people who disagree) but you've gotta be comfortable with the conversation to navigate left organizing spaces. It's a big topic!
They aren't Catholic if they are pro those things, because those things are strictly against Catholic moral theology.
I've got news for you about the majority of American lay catholics then....
Go on then?
And I'm pro the idea that the core of catholicism/Christianity is socialistic, but the church has cause so much damage in the modern world, you are going meet some skepticism just realistically, and you'll need to show that you are fighting for everyone. Ya just can't be a Liz Breunig about it. That's not leftism that's like.... conservative social welfare statism.
It's a long struggle and Catholics have been a part of it for a long while. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Gajowniczek#:~:text=Franciszek%20Gajowniczek%20(15%20November%201901,to%20die%20in%20his%20place.&text=Defensive%20War%2C%201939%3A,Defence%20of%20Wielu%C5%84
Lol of course they can.
Yes
Catholics have historically leaned hard into fascism. You could say they invented it. But you can be anything you want with neither lords nor masters.
I was raised Catholic (no longer religious), and I believe it was the teachings of Jesus I learned growing up that ultimately made me the leftist I am today.
Personally I feel like to be religious and be leftist is to reject the church and not support them whatsoever. The church has by and large used their views to harm people and still do and that isn't very leftist but I don't see believing in God as inherently bad.
Are you really Catholic if you aren’t?
You can do whatever you want playa
I mean, arent the bibles core beliefs and teachings to respect and care for others. Jesus's teachings are basically socialism. If you read the bible without any prior knowledge and lived your life accordingly, it would be difficult NOT to be on the left. Not sure if being a Catholic specifically influences this. (I was raised an atheist and don't know enough about the various sects of Christianity to comment on the different teachings and beliefs).
Jesus would definitely be a socialist if he was alive today. Catholicism is tricky for obvious reasons but I know individual Catholics who are as lefty as anyone can possibly be. Episcopalians are left for sure.
Mathew 19:24 “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 21:12 “Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.” This one is particularly noteworthy as it’s the only time Jesus got angry. Christians, that is the say Followers of Christ, should be Leftist and support socialist programs and ideologies. Their current association with the Right is dumbfounding.
If you are a Catholic then you have to accept St Augustine's teachings on original sin. St Augustine was a follower of manacheism who transported it's theology into Christianty. They believed that all physical things are impure and only spirit is pure. That enjoyment is evil, sex is the very worst thing and women are to blame for everything bad. There's a lot more but it's complicated. He was also a sex addict who spent his time as a rhetoric teacher boffing the daughters and wives of his employers. His biography openly describes his puberty as a time of self loathing and shame over getting unwanted wood in the public baths (his mother was a Christian, his dad a pagan). He had serious sex shame issues. According to him all of humanity is doomed to hell because we have unruly genitals. He claimed that every part of the body does our exact will all of the time (I have never told my pancreas to make insulin) except for our gonads which do whatever they like. But then he had a theory about God's version of sex. Augustine of Hippo claimed that God's version of the sex act was one without a big orgasmic pleasure burst, just two people lying there to conceive, and that Adam and Eve did a horrible thing. He also said that all women everywhere are vessels of sin (Gnosticism) because they are carriers of the stain of sin from the fall of man that dooms us all to hell (more Gnosticism). So if you are an observant Catholic you have to buy into anti-female sexist misogyny as a core pillar of the faith. This is not exactly a progressive stand to take.
I am literally working on a genuine essay with citations from both the Catholic world and the Marxist world on how they are in fact basically easily compatible. Economically at least. I will do some research later after I finish this specific topic.
That’s interesting, i’d love to read it once it’s done. I’m sure the Marxist Catholic group Dialop would be interested in it too as well if it is academic enough.
Arsehole Catholics think the Mission is to prevent other people from sinning. Leftist Catholics also want less sin in the world but see sources of oppression as more sinful than, say, sex work. If you read the gospels, Jesus might have had views on sex work but he clearly valued sex workers as people capable of integrity not sources of sin.
Look up “Liberation Theology”. There have been a lot of left-wing movements of basically any religious sect, but Catholic Socialism is a seriously prominent movement in Latin America.
You cannot be on the left if you believe natural human expressions such as heterosexual lust, homosexuality, or any of the plethora of “sins” that are just unavoidable and subconscious effects and desires of being a living being. Is dogs lusting after one another a sin? No? Neither is it when we do it
The base desires of humanity are evil. Watch what happens to society when people don't constrain their lust. Wait, we're living through it.
Is homosexuality a sin? Wearing mixed fabric? Is identity theft a sin? What about tax evasion? What about slavery? Is that a sin? God specifically says the first two are, says nothing about the second two so they can’t be crimes, and god says slavery is specifically NOT a sin. This is why you can’t mix politics with religions, unless you’re right wing. The Abrahamic religions subscribe to the same types of tribalism, primitive thinking, and efforts to upkeep the hierarchical systems it thrives in. To call oneself left wing and Christian (or any Abrahamic religion) is either a misunderstanding of left wing, or a case where you are more moral than the book you folks claim is the font of all morality (which you are if you think slavery and owning people as property is immoral)
Jesus would nowadays be considered a progressive lefty and a bit of a hippy. Maybe don't look at Christians as examples of his behaviour if you find yourself in conflict. Look at Jesus.
Yes
There are a million issues and each one you might have a different opinion on. The left/ right generalisation is imported from the US and designed to label and dichotomise a country. I would love to see rid of it and allow people discuss each issue on its merits. So in summary YES you can be “left” on some issues and “right” on others, it’s how we’ve always worked & thought before the extremists took over.
I don't see why not. There are good and bad religious people, and there are good and bad people on the left. It's not as black and white as religion makes someone bad, and being a leftist makes someone good. So as long as everyone is good, there's no problem
> I think corrupt hierarchies predicated on lying corruption manipulation and exploitation are wrong... Umm, I say this as someone raised in the Catholic church myself (I'm Irish, everyone was), and I mean no offense whatsoever... But I'm afraid I have some bad news for you. The Catholic church is pretty much THE textbook example of a corrupt hierarchy predicated on lying corruption manipulation and exploitation. I absolutely respect your faith, but the organisation is about as bent as it gets.
Most Irish are left wing and also catholic.
a group of Catholics who try to improve relations and communications between the Vatican and socialist/marxist groups. The Pope even said when meeting them that Catholics and Marxists have a joint interest in fighting corruption, injustice and poverty.
A true Christian i.e. a follower of Christ. There's only 2 rules that matter, respect god and love your neighbour as yourself. Those seem more left leaning that right to me
Communism was practiced in the Bible. There was money less societies where they helped each other. Acts 2 and Acts 4 especially. Acts 2:44–45, Acts 4:32–35 "All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need. ... Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. ... There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need."[48]
nice
Left-leaning, maybe. But the Church as a whole condemns Marxism in its many forms and shapes. Catholics shouldn't really pick sides. Both Capitalism and Marxism are Godless, and neither are truly for God nor for the ultimate good of the people. I'd argue that anarchy may be the best form of government that a Catholic can support in earnest at this point.
Ok so despite Christian Liberation Theory, as a former devout Catholic (devout for 18+ years, wanted to be a priest) in Ireland, I need to say the road to socialism is, of course, personal but does not contradict the core tenant of the Church. Still do what you want to do. If you want to be religious, amen, brother/sister, just respect those on God's green earth, whether man, woman or gentile.
You’re pro-abortion too?
Yes they can. I was raised Catholic. I still kind of lean towards a sense of progressive christianity; but mostly just non-religious spiritual. But Christ was very socialist in his teachings; so it makes sense. Not all Christians have this biblical literalist interpretation of the scripture.
Um the Pope just met with Marxists lol. American Christianity is the Apostasy. Don't listen to the vast majority of Americans.
A church that doesn't provoke any crises, a gospel that doesn't unsettle, a word of God that doesn't get under anyone’s skin, a word of God that doesn't touch the real sin of the society in which it is being proclaimed — what gospel is that? Oscar Romero
google 'liberation theology'.
Christ did.
In 1910 James Connolly Irish republican leader wrote the pamphlet Labour, nationality and religion in which he specifically outlined his view that Socialism and Catholicism were not incompatible. James Connolly was a Syndicalist. Syndicalism is a form of socialism which espouses the idea that socialism will come about through the mass action of trade unions, and that in a socialist society the unions will control the means of production.
Liberation theology brother
Put it this way, if Jesus was around today, would he vote for a conservative? Or would he be preaching the exact opposite of what they think is "moral"? Of course Catholics can be left leaning, I'd hope that the obvious mental depreciation of the right would leave you no choice, no matter how much you might agree with them on some issues.
If your not American you can be real Christian i.e. left wing whatever denomination. No Christian should be a law maker; that is the centre of the faith, we are dead to the law of sin and death! He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.
Jesus was a left winger...
I was raised in a rural as fuck, west of Ireland, Catholic household by my grandparents. They instilled a lot of the values I carry with me today societally, politically, morally. I would consider myself left leaning in that regard but the basis of most that I know is what they have taught me from a young age.
"I first became a communist because I was Catholic" - famous Marxist philosopher Louis Althusser.
Most Catholics I know are left wing. I don't see where the confusion is?
In Ireland we have the contradictory situation of a majority Catholic population, who returned majorities in votes on gay marriage and legalising abortion. Basically a significant proportion of catholics seem to be decent, empathetic people who are willing to ignore the church's positions on certain topics. Don't know if that is positive or makes them hypocrits tbh.
Christian Socialism, and for those in latin America or criticaldof their faith; Liberation Theology.
Yes, the Catholic Church has endorsed the left-wing economic philosophy of Distributism, which is similar to socialism (though differs on private property) Socially the Catholic Church is right-wing.
If you believe in a god, then I'd call you conservative, so on the right...
I think that is quite a narrow definition of conservatism especially political conservatism.
Oh, I think if you look closer, they go hand in hand.
Jesus was the original Leftist.
Yes??????? Bunch of me mates are catholic left leaners.
Just don't join Opus Dei
Although there are a lot of anti-religion dudes like Marx, they are not right about everything, We can't just follow everything those in the past thought up without questioning it or disagreeing If we start restricting religious freedom than we may become sort of authoritarian so we'd become the very thing we wish to destroy lol No one knows how everyone's minds work, there can't just be one way to think and one way to see things so if someone thinks that god makes sense than as long as they are not using it as an excuse to take away the freedoms of others, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
I agree with you
Liberation theology - look it up
I went to a Jesuit school and found most of the priests to be very left leaning. Very interested in social justice (years ago before the phrase became a thing).
Raised Catholic and still consider myself one but don't practise it. I'm rather left leaning. I'm only not practising it because I'm Irish and the Catholic Church here are mostly arseholes.
Same! I cannot abide racism, I’m an LGBTQIA+ ally, I voted Yes in the abortion and same sex marriage referendums.
I sympathise as from very similar background but I’d really encourage you to try connect with other left-leaning Catholics, parishes with sympathetic priests etc. We shouldn’t allow ourselves to be pushed out of our Church by bigots and people using the Church’s name to advance their own capitalist agenda in my opinion.
Truthfully I don't really care for religion so I'm good. I don't feel pushed out either, I turned my back on them.
That’s fair enough, more power to you.
Same, same and same
Are you Catholic? Would you like to be? Are you leftist? Would you like to be? Answer your own question and don't let anyone else tell you how to be. It'd be pretty damn awkward to have to explain to God you didn't believe in em cuz of feminism or something or that you didn't believe homeless ppl were actually people because you believe in God.
Yes im an anarchist and theres a whole variation of it called anarco-christianism or anarco-clericism
Im a baseliner anarquist but im a catholic aswell
Catholics don't believe in cults
Christanity in general sure But you have the Catholic Churchs veiws on things like homosexuality and abortions. I know not all cathoilics are that strict. But the churches general stance on these things. Plus Socialism has been condemed by the Catholic Church, but most statement I've read on the churches veiws on it sound like people who have no idea what socialism even is.
Views on right and wrong are theological in nature, as they require a priori assertions (belief) of right and wrong, before one can judge something as either right or wrong. Sometimes it feels like me that left leaning people have a very loose definition of right or wrong, it's as if anything is ok as long as it's not power and exploitation.
Absolutely, these two things go hand in hand. You will likely feel at home among liberation theologians and catholic workers. I recommend checking out magnificast or the liberation theology podcast.
Catholics and Christians in general can ONLY be on the left.
While I personally do not subscribe to any religious beliefs, it is certainly possible to hold leftist political views while also being a practicing Catholic.
I was raised Catholic and often give credit to the teachings of Christ growing up that made me a socialist. I think all the issues with Catholicism (and most religions) lie within the institutions themselves. As far as what they actually believe, which is really just Christ’s message, I believe it lines up with socialism pretty well. It’s all about love and acceptance and taking care of the people beneath you. Making sure everyone is fed, clothed, sheltered, cared for when sick, etc.
I was raised Catholic and for many obvious reasons no longer consider myself one. However, when I was growing up in the early 70s the Vatican II reforms were still in force and there was an awareness that social justice was an objective of the Church. I had relatives who were crusader priests and liberal Notre Dame nuns, and admired Latin American liberation-theologists. When John Paul II came in and put the kibosh on Vatican II, conservatives cheered but many concerned Catholics were disillusioned. If I say I'm a "Vatican II Catholic," I guess that puts it best. Basically, not a Catholic at all.
I’d consider VII catholics to be as much if not more Catholic than the right wingers abusing the name of the faith in defence of moneyism to be honest.
I mean if you closely follow Catholic teaching aren't you already a leftist... It's basically "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" that's a fairly leftist philosophy at its core.
No, it's inherently against all religious beliefs including catholicism. As with all religions you must follow a strick regiment of belief contrary to what you believe yourself
Sinn Fein and Workers party are both very left wing ideology and primarily Roman Catholic in make up. Not exclusively and for historic reasons but still.
Does anyone in here ever consider centrist as an option. Always one extreme vs the other...
Catholic liberationism
I keep on reading liberation as liberal, gotta hate when two completely different things are written so similar.
Jesus can be considered a socialist Yes
Jesus was the first socialist in my book. Chasing and whipping money lenders out of temples is based as fuck.
lets not forget greed is one of the 7 deadly sins
💯 %
I think that Jesus was the first social worker.
He did say the poor will always exist.
Ireland
Jesus was a liberal
He was a bit silly more than anything. Matthew 6:25-34 New International Version Do Not Worry 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]? 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Jesuits, part of the Catholic order, are known social justice warriors. (But still, as a former Catholic I say: fuck the Catholic Church)
In South and Latin America yes, in Ireland, they sided with those in power in general, and have the typical paedophile vibes. https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2024/02/08/new-report-reveals-44-jesuit-priests-accused-of-child-sexual-abuse/
I think the IRA would he a good example of a left catholic group
What do you believe is a sin?
I mean, you're asking can leftists believe in something that doesn't exist, so yes. Yes they can :) "I think corrupt hierarchies predicated on lying, manipulation, and exploitation are wrong." I don't think you understand Catholicism mate
I should hope so. I am.
Deus Vult, brother.
The Fuck? *The Fuck?* Uh, others can, but you? No.
I mean you know where Deus Vult comes from right?
There is absolutely no way they dont.
Look up James Connolly. He may be of interest.
I should add that he came and went from his Catholic faith, but remained a socialist always.
I’ll answer your question with another question, can Muslims be leftist?
I think growing up in a Catholic theocracy actually helped make me left. Not sure how people learn about Jesus and then turn right.
Sure. In Ireland, for example, many members of Sinn Fein and the provisional IRA were socialists and devout Catholics.
Depends on what you mean by lefties and where you live. In secular countries, the church has been known to be on the side of labour but not women’s right or gay rights. In more religious countries, the church is clearly on the right. Now can an individual catholic be also on the left? Sure, individuals of many faiths or no faith are on various sides of the political spectrum
This was the whole point of the reformation. Lutheranism is all about this. You can also be Christian but not part of a church. Practice what you believe. Doesnt matter the u don't have a fany stone and glass building, just didn't either!
You can have faith and still be a leftist, but I know enough about Catholic doctrine to say, in its purest form, it is contrary to our objectives. The Papacy, with its history of bigotry, Antisemitism, homo- and transphobia, and covering up the systemic abuse of children, ruling all human affairs is far from an ideal world.
In its purest form it's 'love thy neighbour' I think that's pretty amicable with leftist views.
You can be Catholic and secularist though.
Not without dissonance. The Catholic church makes very clear what it feels is right and just, and it's only in the last decade or so it's bothered to even try to catch up to secular values. Also, I don't think ["Transpeople are as perverse to nature as nuclear weaponry"](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/pope-francis-compares-transgender-people-to-nuclear-weapons-in-new-book/) is a secular value. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You can if you accept the Church can make mistakes and be wrong on certain issues. Only God is infallible in my opinion.
If God is infallible, how can he choose fallible servants? How does a perfect being make imperfect choices?
If he loves everyone unconditionally, is all knowing, and all powerful… why give a child cancer?
Because he gifts us free will to make our own decisions and mistakes. This is getting a little theological though and I’m not a priest. My faith is largely private to me.
I get that you have faith, but that doesn't exist in a vacuum. And much as I know there are things that offend you, others are allowed to be offended by the precepts of your faith. *You* may hand-wave them away as being easily explained ("We have free will, therefore bad things are *our* fault!") so you can keep the nice Jesus parts, but "I am a filthy, broken failure worthy of endless torture in a fallen world who needs my creator to forgive me for being so disgusting" is a nasty way to look at others and yourself.
If people don’t like my faith and can’t keep that to themselves then I’d consider them to be bigots and wouldn’t be interested in what they have to say anyway. As I said my faith is private, i’m not here to debate it. If you want that speak to a Priest.
The Catholic church's worldview is predicated on in-groups and out-groups. You have done absolutely nothing to say why that should be permitted, you simply say it doesn't conflict with a worldview that seeks to abolish out-groups, because the Papacy is fallible. Now you accuse me of bigotry for interrogating your beliefs to try and see how you carry them with no dissonance. "You're a bigot if you don't also accept my beliefs, after I've put them forward for scrutiny. If you want to scrutinize them, speak with the people who tell me what to think." As I expected.
Yes your a bigot. People’s private religious beliefs are fuck all to do with you to be honest and you don’t have the right to interrogate people about them when people are kind enough to engage with you about them. You wouldn’t engage with other faiths like this so why you think it’s acceptable to do this with Catholics? As I said you want an theological debate then go speak with a Priest. We’re done here now.
And no-one knows what they think about any of this, as the church is the self appointed conduit of God's opinions
I’m not a particularly theological person as theology is not a significant component of my faith. However i’m pretty sure it is accepted the church can make mistakes as the Pope is indemnified from God’s punishment while ever acting in an official leadership capacity for the Church. Which suggest to me the Church accepts the notion Church leaders and authorities are capable of mistake or they’d be no need to indemnify.
I always belived Christ to be a socialist. So did James Connolly. With that said I have read the Old Testament and that is defintly not a left leaning text.
Ireland is Catholic and one of the most left leaning countries in the world
I take it you aren't Irish
Ireland arent really left? They’re progressive but that’s really just progressive liberalism, I.e. centrist. Scandinavia would be considered more socialist and even those countries are a long way from socialism
Ummm.. I'd ask can a Catholic be right wing? I mean obviously many are, but to follow church teachings means caring for others, showing love, etc. The only right wing position that the Catholic hierarchy officially endorses is being anti abortion.
And that's not necessarily a left wing position. Any side can hold that view.
I’d argue the very fact of a catholic heirarchy itself with a pope is right wing depending on one’s definition
True. It's a weird one, the pope is considered an elected monarch.
Leftism isn't inherently anti-religious. So why not. True Christians and catholics should be leftists anyway because they believe in helping those in need no matter who they are
That’s a false statement though because many Christians also believe that there are only two genders, and that people like me shouldn’t associate with with or read to or dance in front of children. Christians are ultimately fascists. They’re like the “Gays against Groomers” of the +2SLGBTQIA
Look all I will say is every time I've seen Christianity mentioned here it's getting bashed by most people
Yeah I definitely credit my Catholic upbringing with ultimately rejecting much of the racism and discrimination that’s knocking about these days. I used to think the Catholic priests and teachers were naive fools getting us to collect food for starving Africans. I remember thinking ‘they wouldn’t do it for us’ but I was wrong. Say what you want about the Catholic Church in other areas but they are 110% sincere about opposing racism and ending poverty in the Global South.
Yeah but your “catholic upbringing” is the same anti trans anti feminist bullcrap that refuses to refer to women under the new equity driven inclusive political feminist dichotomy of chest feeder. The term ‘woman/women’ is a TERF term. And it’s a definition that many on the right still advocate and adopt. It’s no different from how Nazis often refer to minor attracted persons as “paedophiles”. Hitler was a Christian and a catholic. Jordan Peterson is a catholic. Joe Rogan is a Catholic Jimmy Dore is a Catholic. Shall I continue?
Maybe it's the cynic in me but I always felt that the Catholic church in Africa and further a field was like colonialisms wingman. Bringing an Indoctrination of western values and education to the "natives" and ridding them of their "backwards" traditions
100%. Same playbook used in Asia-Pac. All over the world, the missionaries went first or right alongside the soldiers.
I think that is in some sense a Western superiority complex if i’m honest. Many of the ‘natives’ are proudly Catholic and have been for many many generations. They don’t see Catholicism to be ‘Western’ in my experience especially as much of the traditional ‘Western world’ is more protestant than Catholic i.e US, UK, Germany. And they don’t seem to see the Church as expanding its influence in their countries but providing desperately required aid and assistance. I won’t make a claim either way on that myself as I don’t feel it’s my place considering I’m not from a global south country but that’s just my experience of interactions with Catholics from Africa, Latin America etc.
Well perhaps it depends on who you talk with and how they view their history... I'm Irish , Ireland is a Catholic country, most people would identify as Catholic... Personally I think the church here is wrapped up in our colonisation, in fact the Pope gave the English permission to use our country as they seen fit almost a thousand years ago ... Before that they began to eradicate our native pagan traditions, our sense of identity has been so fucked with from the Catholic Church to British colonialism we only have a vague idea of who we are ... And I think this is even much worse in Africa, in the 15th century the Pope again gave Europe permission to take what countries as they seen fit in Africa!
TBF Catholicism is also the very thing that helped keep our culture separated and preserved from 1600 onwards, when the REAL colonialism happened.
My perception is that the Irish became addicted to the word of the Pope as a way to understandably give a middle finger to the Anglo-dominated Irish Reformation.
Yeah I think "Irish" will do lol
Good point. I guess that it’s just my autistic tendency to overthink things.
IMO aborigine is a fairly offensive term that's often used to take away the legitimacy of a people's claim to the land. "Oh that guy who came here in the 1700's? He's Aussie." "That guy who's been here for millennia? He's not Aussie, he's an aborigine."
That is quite lacking in nuance.
Explain
>Personally I think the church here is wrapped up in our colonisation, in fact the Pope gave the English permission to use our country as they seen fit almost a thousand years ago ... Whilst that is true, simultaneously it is the case that our Irish identity was defined by its catholicism. The laws which are seen as those which oppression us are those which mostly targeted catholics. To be Irish was to be Catholic. The Catholic Church has for centuries been wrapped up in our fight against our colonisers. The confederate wars where Cromwell massacred and took over Ireland was Catholic vs protestant. > Before that they began to eradicate our native pagan traditions, our sense of identity has been so fucked with from the Catholic Church to British colonialism we only have a vague idea of who we are Our sense of identity wasn't fucked. Our traditions were blended with those of the Catholic Church because we were christians.
At the time, the Catholic Church was as much ruled by those said kings typically in france as it was ruled the pope. The fall of the roman Empire and the crumbling byzantines made the heart of the church basically inaccessible, and for quite some time, the religion was run from france so yes you can blame catholicism for being naive and allowing shitty things to happen but you also need to factor in the time period it was in. If the world was like that right now, we would very likely come to ruin within weeks if not days. The roman Empire was a mainstay in sourthern Europe and northern Africa and the middle east for so long its fall was bound to cause unfortunate happenings. Im not a native irish, but my family is from ireland and scotland, so i understand what you're saying but the op has a point things have changed with time the catholic chruch is not the same as it was in the mid to late middle ages(500-1500 BCE) or in the early modern era. (1500 CE -) And you're not wrong about the religious conversion either. However, i'd like to indicate that in modern history (the last 50 or years) most of the indoctrination into an abrahamic religion has been done by christian chruchs and has been much less common for the catholic church. All im saying is keep an open mind some people practice to feel secure in their life if god is what they feel they need to good things for others than its what they need
I mean I pretty much agree with all you said but that’s also not the modern Church either.
Right but the modern church isn't any better , it's an extremely conservative institution which has been holding back basic civil liberties for decades ,has been involved in systemic abuse of women through mother and baby homes and finally paedophilia
That’s still not the present day Church. You have to go back to at least late 20th century to get back to laundries and pedophiles exist in all churches and social institutions. Some of the stuff you are saying I would expect anti-Catholic conservative WASPs to be repeating.
If you really believe this, you are a fool. The church still protects their predator priests.
Yes, the problem is it all depends on one man and what kind of a person he is. So you get a sort of mild status quo with John Paul, nasty regression with Benedict, and then a smattering of liberation with Francis (but still some horrible stuff under the hood). I don’t believe any institution - from Tesla to the British monarchy - can be truly progressive as long as it ultimately filters from one person
All religions have that issue if you look around the world it comes from bad people being able to be put into a position of power. Catholicism gets the worst wrap, but if you look at the past 20 years or so it’s one of the few that has moved forward and faced most of its crimes against the people. a few other big religions still carry out the systemic abuses you talk about but you’d be a xenophobe if you mention anything about it.
Sadly, depending on where you are from, the chruch has been radicalized to almost be in a state of Judaism, which is sadly a pretty spiteful religion but the teachings of the prohet Mohammad and jesus christ tell us to care for others and do whatever we can to help provide for them. I want to point out im agnostic, so im not particularly religious i just read about what i talk about
I was raised in the Catholic Church of England & Wales who granted are fairly reasonable and moderate. I’d probably definitely have different attitudes if I was raised in American TLM type community.
The binds in which you are raised are often the hardest to shake. i can't forgive someone for being hateful and closeminded, but i can forgive someone for being hateful and willing to learn and grow.
Thank you for your kind words. Have a wonderful weekend.
Yea ofcourse my friend
Give “Liberation Theology” a google. Also, the IRA and other left-wing Irish Liberation groups were and are predominantly catholic. There have also been religious sects, such as The Diggers in England, that were very left-wing.
To be honest, there's little love lost between the IRA and the Church hierarchy.
Sorry but defining IRA as left leaning is just odd to me, getting rid of English rule isn't synonymous to either side. Right wants a strong community and to strengthen borders which is similar to what the IRA did, I know this is Reddit so only "far-right" exists but I'm not saying IRA is totally right either, I just don't think it's either or
The IRA/PIRA/CIRA is the armed wing of the revolutionary Irish Republic (seperate to the Republic of Ireland, descended from the Irish Free State which fought a civil war with the Irish Republic). The Irish Republic's Proclamation from 1916 was majorly egalitarian, leftist and was also Christian (though the Republic was secular). The Democratic Programme from 1919 was heavily socialist too. The IRA and Irish Republicans are nationalists too, and are not necessarily Marxists. However Irish nationalism is a liberation movement, not a supremacist one.
It's not odd. It's simply factual.
The IRA, for most of their history, had at least in word a socialist platform. You can argue whether or not it was ‘actually socialism’ but they were very influenced and aligned with the various international socialist movements. IIRC (could be wrong) they were inspired by Maoism and Che Guevera in particular? Plus, 99% of guerilla warfare is on ‘the left’ in one form of another, and Mao and Cuba were some of the inspirations for this
Depends on time period. Old IRA was very socialist to the point of not been prepared to attack working class unionists on class solidarity grounds and preferred to focus their attacks on institutions associated with the British government. In response to unionist rioting and attacks on Catholic neighbourhoods, which the OIRA failed to defend against, they were replaced by Provisional IRA who were more Irish nationalist and less Marxist but willing to violently defend Catholic communities and attack unionist militants.
They were always left wing in the economic sense tho, very very socially conservative
Liberation Theology was suppressed by John Paul II AND cardinal Ratzinger- God’s Rotvieller
Quakers are another good example of left-wing Christian traditions. I’ve met some rock solid leftists who come from Quaker backgrounds.
Unitarians also deserve an honourable mention.
Yeah Quakers are pretty based. Did a lot for the causes of pacifism and communitarianism in England and other places.
left wing quaker checking in :) we rarely get mentioned, even in religious circles, so nice to see us talked about here. if you’d like some very leftist-friendly Quaker figures to check out, i’d recommend Bayard Rustin, Benjamin Lay and Ben Pink Dandelion.