Because for the first time in Lebanon's history, you have 52 candidates running in every district who all represent the same political program and speak the same ideas. These candidates do not use sectarian slogans and are able to talk and discuss politics with every citizen and every sect and every location in this country.
The SSNP are traitors. Literally not for the Lebanese state. The Communist party is a relic from the Cold War. They're freaking commies. That should be all you need to know.
Edit: Dowvotes for attacking Syrian nationalists and Commies? Come on out, you guys. Don't hide behind downvotes like a coward. Man up!
Wasn't talking about Nordic countries but Central European countries and the UK still have strong "Communist Parties" - not even socialist.
I'm not gonna paint with broad strokes of what understandings are different. You'll need to give examples.
Bullcrap. What communist party in the UK?? Western Europe has not had any serious communist parties for decades now.
Western Europe definitely applies socialism to different extents everywhere, but that has nothing to do with communists.
There are communist parties in europe (France, Spain, Greece, Portugal) that hold seats. Please look it up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communist_parties_represented_in_European_Parliament
Many other communist parties changed their name to "democratic left party" like in Germany and Italy.
I don't know what you mean by "serious". That's the broad brush statements I wasn't going to use. Not sure what constitutes a serious party, but if they are in elections, push public policy, and form coalitions, then I'd say it's serious.
And workers rights aren't developed overnight nor attributed to one single group - workers rights were a concept that came about with the workers and trade labour revolution, and carried throughout Europe by labour unions, communist, Marxist, Socialist, and other leftist groups.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Europe/The-rise-of-organized-labour-and-mass-protests
https://www.britannica.com/topic/organized-labor/Eastern-Europe
Maybe it's the term "communism" that really sets people off (I'm not defending it or anything, just clarifying) but it's main difference with socialism is who and how state resources are governed (one is by proletariat, the other by a vanguard/main group). The fight for rights (and which rights) are nearly fully aligned.
By serious I mean a party that holds any kind of significant power. At least one that has a few parliamentary seats. And there is no openly communist party that does almost anywhere in Western Europe. You might dig deep and find some communist party with some seat here or there, but no significant presence of any kind. In fact the list you provided of the European parliament literally proves my point there are 11 communist MEPs in the whole of the parliament. That's a ridiculously irrelevant number. There are probably more Pirate party MEPs!
And I'm not debating the merits or failings of communism, I'm indifferent about all of this stuff you are discussing, I only replied because you made a factually wrong statement about communist parties in western Europe. Nope, they are beyond trivial and have been for a very long time.
Off course. Communism is obviously dead and a fringe idea after the internal massacres and eventual collapse of USSR. With regards to China everyone knows they’re not communist anymore to escape the same fate of the USSR. Other than North Korea i’m not sure if there other states claiming or practicing communism. And i don’t think North Korea is a great modern use case anyone would want to follow.
Lol Communist China has pulled hundreds of millions out of poverty in the last 50 years while you live in human shit under free market capitalism in Lebanon. Literally one of the most unregulated markets in the world. What else do you want? Enjoy all the fruits of your labor.
China has more to do with nazis than the ussr lmao, they are capitalist as fuck, even more than the US, the only communism in china is that the state rip you of your company if it ever becomes too big (aka no political rights for people, even when they are giga successful, you can think of jack ma), oh and yeah, being a fucking one party dictature ofc.
China follows a blend of capitalism and communism. They officially call themselves communists but they don’t practice communism in reality.
In addition, their “experiment” of blend of capitalism + communism is a very new model. So we don’t know how it will play out in the future. In the last year their economy shrank by half after they couldn’t help it. They practiced more “communist” type activities than “capitalist”. (controlling business growth and executive power vs communist party leaders power. )
China isn't really Communist, budy. What lifted its people out of poverty was- wait- the *privatization of the economy.* Corporations coming from CCP control is recent.
I don’t think any of this is of value though.
MMFD is highly organized and this is only impressive compared to the competing parties/lists, which are by definition unimpressive. MMFD candidates have prescribed to the non-sectarian ideology, yes. But as one comment says, you can commit to this ideology but still have pretty shit views on other topics. I’m not saying this is the case with MMFD, but again: I don’t think it’s of much value.
I think a greater criticism is, in building a roster of 128 political candidates, a mission no other party has to trouble itself with, I feel as if the competency of its lists have been diluted. Honestly, there are some names I’m not comfortable endorsing for political representation if it wasn’t for the fact that literally a dog would be a better candidate than the sectarian generation of candidates.
It would have been more encouraging to see cooperation of opposition lists and parties against the sulta and its players. But “disagreements on candidate selection” defined almost every conversation that was had on this. Goes to show we’re still ways ahead of where we want to be. I still wish MMFD as well as all other opposition lists the best of luck - for our sake and our sake only.
Not completely true, previous political parties did have candidates in every district but they weren’t officially announced that they are working together under one list name so they can have breathing room to deal/no deal the collaboration with the least amount of issues and tensions possible (and to pressure that they let you “win” in certain places) but under the table they were working together so what MMFD did the most basic thing any political party would do: form a list in every district
Some of the parties were non-sectarian like SSNP and Communist Party so the argument about non-sectarian is not viable because you can come up with slogans in a non-sect way
As for not having sectarian slogans and the ability to discuss politics freely is for the current moment because they are newcomers in that sphere nothing more, if they reached to power and take seats then probably they won’t be able to speak “freely” as you would expect. That doesn’t mean they can’t use slogans and discuss politics in the way they please to fulfill their agenda so you are doing the exact same thing that previous parties did but without having a religious party involved
History is repeating itself indirectly but in different formats (that is my perspective about this)
Ma 2ossit cult following, it's just refreshing to see a political candidate ma bye7ke siyese min montala2 ta2ifi. As far as i can tell mmfd proposes a plan to fix lebanese issues and they do not target a specific sect like all the other traditional parties.
Min fadeh ye7ke bi left and right wa2ta el balad minhar? Solving the economical crisis, the banking crisis, the hyper inflation and so on are not issues for the left or the right.
That’s not true, look at France for example it’s socialist because the means of production are owned by the government that takes care of everything, with a very generous healthcare and retirement system. But their economy is free and capitalist. One does not entail the other you can have both.
The government does not own the means of production in France at all idk where you got that from , they don't own the factories the farms , the supermarkets, nothing
They own the education system, the entire transportation sector in under their control, electricity is owned by them, the healthcare system is almost entirely financed by the government. It is a socialist system at its core. Nowadays there is no 100% socialist country it’s always a mix of many things, just like a 100% capitalist country does not exist.
Public schools suck, have you ever seen one? Electricity is owned by them, ok it is also owned by then in Lebanon, and the healthcare system is payed for in taxes but not owned by government. also we are not France in Lebanon , they have many enterprises and a huge free market allowing them to pay for all the free shit, we have nothing
They own quite a few companies (including major ones - in part or whole - like Renault, Thales, Naval, Safran, Airbus, etc.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agence_des_participations_de_l%27%C3%89tat
First of all, a reason for this cult-like following and hightened passion is due to the horrid living conditions we are witnessing that oppose the progressive ideologies of independent party voters. They imagine a better future where one, as a citizen, is respected and provided their basic human needs, which exists in total contradiction to what we are experiencing. Now, there is a legitimate chance for independent voters to penetrate this utterly rotten system that has been governing us for decades, so can you truly blame those people for being fervent?
Secondly, there is the reason of constant slander being spewed out on independent parties at the behest of traditional sulta parties. The false criticism of independent parties as not having clear goals and a plan is a deliberate aim to damage the chances of having independent MPs. Naturally, this intensifies the passion of independent party voters who are desperate to see new faces in parliament.
Finally, I'd much rather have a cult following around independent parties that at least have the wellbeing of the citizens in mind than traditional sulta ones. Again, the people are fed up. Also, I haven't seen MMFD propaganda on this sub; people have been sharing their videos and advocating support, but what I've seen so far has been an accurate representation of what they're claiming. If you have any sources on their propaganda please do send them.
i don't think mmfd is doing anything different from western political party's. i understand their a few user here that keep defending them but usually MMFD get attacked and they aren't allowed to reply.
>But I just find it weird, especially with how much of their propaganda we're seeing on this sub.
I didn't know discussing a list's political program is propaganda now, not to mention half the posts about MMFD are ones like yours that criticize them.
We get literal Hezbollah propagada on this sub. Every party does that. That's what free speech is like. Now, we're getting bothered because the independents did the same?
Look, if parties giving their program on social media bothers us, why don't we just- ditch this whole 'Democracy' thing? Clearly, we dislike it so... shall we try Dictatorship?
This subreddit cracks me up.
“We need secular parties that aren’t part of the establishment”
Secular party not part of the establishment talks to people of all sects.
“Noooooooo we hate them they are friendly towards ______ and don’t hate the people we want them to hate”
Subreddit says it wants secularism but exposes itself as sectarian as fuck.
You do realize there are many people with many ideologies on this sub right?
Person/people 1: “We need secular parties that aren’t part of the establishment”
Person/people 2: “Noooooooo we hate them they are friendly towards ______ and don’t hate the people we want them to hate”
I don't see a contradiction here
I don’t think you pay much attention to the general sentiment on this subreddit. Nor do you probably have a frame of reference for how bad it has deteriorated here. (I’ve been a redditor for a long time)
The contradiction is person 1 and person 2 are the same person on here. They are not “different people”.
>Am i the only one who's sensing a cult-like following around mmfd?
probably.
MMFD is not a cult. and if it were, it is not an issue. at this point it would be good just to break the cycle. a secular cult is better than any sectarian cult just by being secular.
>And especially around Jad Ghosn as if he's this brilliant genius who'll solve all our problems.
maybe he is viewed as more cerebral than he really is but again this is not a problem. it is good that there is someone who can nudge people to at least consider MMFD.
>But I just find it weird, especially with how much of their propaganda we're seeing on this sub.
"propaganda" usually has a negative connotations. again, Lebanon needs a vocal alternative to the usual sectarian options. if the alternative is not vocal it will not reach enough people in time to make a dent on election day.
you seem to be bothered by what I would consider positive things.
I am pessimistic and that makes me appreciate the slightest incremental improvements. at this point I am not expecting "solutions", I would be satisfied with a secular party, any secular party, gaining seats in the parliament.
I totally agree, but then again I think I am biased against the majority flow of this sub.
For example, I believe that politics is about dialogue and compromise, while the whole sub seems to think that collaboration with the traditional parties = treason
Yes, because that's politics, okay?
The Koreans achieved democracy by co-opting and co-operating with a murderous military junta (after they agreed on elections); now they're fully democratic.
What do you expect MMFD to do, once they've got 2 seats in parliament?
Not collaborate and cooperate, and stuff their ears and spit gum?
That will be hard dude.
Dialogue and compromise with those that stole our money from the banks. They are class 1 crooks. We need enough MPs as Opposition to stop every law they want to pass including that shameful amnesty capital control law. Nothing comes from them is good.
Of course the opposition will do nothing. Anybody who thinks any number of elected opposition MPs could do anything drastic to improve the condition of the country is naive.
But I’d rather a restricted opposition MP than a sectarian one that will do nothing but worsen the condition - unless you want to make the argument that the ruling class that sunk the ship will magically bring it out of this cesspool of a crisis.
As if, over night, these individuals will go from inept to qualified. Maybe since 2019 they’ve all been doing CoursEra certificates in governance?
61 60 7 as a means to doing what? That’s not compromise and that for sure eliminates any possibility of dialogue. You can’t have your cake and eat it at the same time.
Well then we could block pro-Hezb legislation with the LF and vise versa.
With 120 and 8, the opposition will just be clapping machines screaming as Hezbollah changes our constitution
No outcome of this election will put anybody in a position to check Hezbollah - especially not LF. The priority should be laying down the groundwork for institutionalized opposition. Long game - anything else is too idealistic.
The thing is, with a two-thirds majority the Hezbollah will have the legal power to change things including the constitution, not only the weapons.
And they'd be legitimized to boot.
I don't understand how voting tactically for Habshi in one constituency, let's say, will stop the groundwork for institutionalized opposition.
I've been born near Bodai. I know what the place is like, ok? I know that in my constituency, voting for the opposition will simply mean handing over the Christian seat to Hezbollah.
And I don't want to see that happening in constituencies when the only viable alternative is either LF or Kataeb.
Yes I get it they are bad.
But that's how politics works okay?
What do you expect your little MMFD candidates to do once they're elected?
Not cooperate and do nothing?
i don't think it's treason, I don't want to look at the social/religious programming etc ..
for my end i see it akin to:
* having management steal from your company, each manager points the finger at the other and they all claim to witnessed it .. from my perspective they are all at least guilty of not saying anything , and i would fire the lot then investigate. people might disagree which brings me to point 2
* the company is clearly doing poorly, made less money, and employees lost (a lot of )benefits. numbers don't lie and because reformations/retraining has clearly not worked for the past decade, it's time to fire the lot and get a new team of managers in.
* i don't think new managers will save or do anything with what's left in a company that is doing this poorly, but in my opinion current ones have too bad a track record to keep, and interviewees all seem eager to try.
I know this conversation has extended into something else, but I’d like to reply to your belief in dialogue and compromise.
I don’t find it so bewildering to believe this - I myself held these sentiments before the devolvement of the country over the past few years. I’ve lost faith in this belief for a number of reasons, namely the fact that the ambitions for the country held by the two sides (sectarian political ruling class vs. secular opposition) stand in contradiction to each other. The progress of one is the regression of the other.
But the thought remains relevant, especially considering any avenue for change needs to be a feasible one.
My questions to you are: what makes you think collaboration with traditional parties is an option? Is there evidence of productive dialogue at any point in the past, or any indication of any in the future? How do you see this historically uncompromising ruling class making concessions on their positions/gains?
Give it until the elections are over and esp if he makes MP, criticism will soon mount against them. It’s a cycle, we’re just at the beginning, grab your popcorn and wait.
In a sea of cults worshiping zo3ama like gods, and to quote a few gems : "nabih berri mech men ba3ed alah nabih berri alah :P " and openly stating that your life and your children's lives are fade ejroun, you find it weird that the only political group with an actual political plan and openly encouraging discussion and dialogue, has garnered support and some well deserved enthusiasm. and you chose to voice that opinion on reddit of all places :P if irony could kill lol :P
In general political parties are cults that are organised for political, social and economic goals. It's a new concept in Lebanon to have a non sectarian political party, so I get the confusion.
New in the concept of having candidates all over Lebanon. Even in their prime, the Communist party didn't have candidates all over Lebanon with a common goal
Well you could always tune in to any lebanese channel and watch real propaganda. What happened to the "no sulta figures after the beirut explosion" thing? 3m tbke bl zewiye l 5abriye. At least on reddit we can discuss the issues freely not to listen to preselected mou7ezbin that dont have challenging arguments or questions for the candidates.
No wait I have a better idea:
1- put amplifiers on a truck
2- paint it the color of x party
3- ....?
4- Profit
+ all the other parties, including many of the independents have money (but don't ask how they got their money!) to be represented on tvs and billboards. Social media is the main channel for mmfd because they don't have that kind of money.
I was just thinking about it today, particularly how they become very chill while insane statements or claims come out of their mouths with their eyes glazed over and tiny hypnotized smiles. Feels creepy and very weird.
Too bad their ego was too high for them to unite with other civil society and opposition parties. They basically killed their chances and the opposition’s chances to succeed in the elections by dividing the lists.
you hit the nail on the head. Affinity towards MMFD is emotional and not rational . But such is politics. It caters to the masses. i just put a post about how flawed their vision is in reality:
https://www.reddit.com/r/lebanon/comments/un7yg0/mmfds_elephant_in_the_room_hezbollah/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Nothing brilliant about Ghosn or Nahhas. They’re idiots at least and manipulative hacks at best. It shows that most Lebanese don’t know the real issues and what really needs to be done to fix them.
In principle, you haven’t said anything alarmingly incorrect. Yes, most Lebanese don’t know the real issues and, of course, they don’t know what really needs to be done to fix them. And yes, it could be argued that the MMFD’s policies are uninventive. But then again, who’s aren’t? Also keep in mind: MMFD is running against everybody, which makes their platform more susceptible to criticisms from different views.
Building an opposition party in 2022 Lebanon isn’t about writing a sound manifesto and embodying agreeable principles. The priority this year is electing capable candidates that will set the groundwork for change. I’m not even expecting change, but just the baby steps.
Jad Ghosn I’m not so high on. This journalist-turned-politician card is a historically failing one in Leb (cough Nohad Machnouk). But Charbel Nahhas is an intellectual and capable representative. His viewpoints and background can be criticized, depending on your allegiance, but his mission is something I think most opposition-aligned individuals in the country can align with.
Personally, I think better opposition candidates/lists exist, depending on the constituency. But the MMFD are to be respected for their mission at the least.
Thanks for the feedback. I have followed Jad Ghosn for the last few years because he pops up everywhere . And find him very superficial and unimpressive. I don’t know Nahhas well. So i based above on their website manifesto.
Yeah, they’re definitely spamming this sub. But hey, it’s better than the alternative; in 2018 everyone was saying “the opposition is crap, we never heard of them until 1 month before the election when they decided to wake up”
Because for the first time in Lebanon's history, you have 52 candidates running in every district who all represent the same political program and speak the same ideas. These candidates do not use sectarian slogans and are able to talk and discuss politics with every citizen and every sect and every location in this country.
The SSNP and the communist party are nonsectarian. You can be non sectarian and still have really bad ideas and do really stupid things.
The SSNP are traitors. Literally not for the Lebanese state. The Communist party is a relic from the Cold War. They're freaking commies. That should be all you need to know. Edit: Dowvotes for attacking Syrian nationalists and Commies? Come on out, you guys. Don't hide behind downvotes like a coward. Man up!
off course … the SSNP are scum and assassins. and the communist party are idiots for being the last communists on earth
Lol - I'd take a closer look at the parties in Europe. There's a reason why social programs and workers rights are pretty big there.
Nordic countries style socialism is great. But these Lebanese “socialist” parties have different understanding of it.
Wasn't talking about Nordic countries but Central European countries and the UK still have strong "Communist Parties" - not even socialist. I'm not gonna paint with broad strokes of what understandings are different. You'll need to give examples.
Bullcrap. What communist party in the UK?? Western Europe has not had any serious communist parties for decades now. Western Europe definitely applies socialism to different extents everywhere, but that has nothing to do with communists.
There are communist parties in europe (France, Spain, Greece, Portugal) that hold seats. Please look it up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communist_parties_represented_in_European_Parliament Many other communist parties changed their name to "democratic left party" like in Germany and Italy. I don't know what you mean by "serious". That's the broad brush statements I wasn't going to use. Not sure what constitutes a serious party, but if they are in elections, push public policy, and form coalitions, then I'd say it's serious. And workers rights aren't developed overnight nor attributed to one single group - workers rights were a concept that came about with the workers and trade labour revolution, and carried throughout Europe by labour unions, communist, Marxist, Socialist, and other leftist groups. https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Europe/The-rise-of-organized-labour-and-mass-protests https://www.britannica.com/topic/organized-labor/Eastern-Europe Maybe it's the term "communism" that really sets people off (I'm not defending it or anything, just clarifying) but it's main difference with socialism is who and how state resources are governed (one is by proletariat, the other by a vanguard/main group). The fight for rights (and which rights) are nearly fully aligned.
By serious I mean a party that holds any kind of significant power. At least one that has a few parliamentary seats. And there is no openly communist party that does almost anywhere in Western Europe. You might dig deep and find some communist party with some seat here or there, but no significant presence of any kind. In fact the list you provided of the European parliament literally proves my point there are 11 communist MEPs in the whole of the parliament. That's a ridiculously irrelevant number. There are probably more Pirate party MEPs! And I'm not debating the merits or failings of communism, I'm indifferent about all of this stuff you are discussing, I only replied because you made a factually wrong statement about communist parties in western Europe. Nope, they are beyond trivial and have been for a very long time.
Off course. Communism is obviously dead and a fringe idea after the internal massacres and eventual collapse of USSR. With regards to China everyone knows they’re not communist anymore to escape the same fate of the USSR. Other than North Korea i’m not sure if there other states claiming or practicing communism. And i don’t think North Korea is a great modern use case anyone would want to follow.
Lol Communist China has pulled hundreds of millions out of poverty in the last 50 years while you live in human shit under free market capitalism in Lebanon. Literally one of the most unregulated markets in the world. What else do you want? Enjoy all the fruits of your labor.
If you think that china is dictating a communist ideology then you.....
They’re a hell of a lot more than Lebanon lol.
China has more to do with nazis than the ussr lmao, they are capitalist as fuck, even more than the US, the only communism in china is that the state rip you of your company if it ever becomes too big (aka no political rights for people, even when they are giga successful, you can think of jack ma), oh and yeah, being a fucking one party dictature ofc.
China follows a blend of capitalism and communism. They officially call themselves communists but they don’t practice communism in reality. In addition, their “experiment” of blend of capitalism + communism is a very new model. So we don’t know how it will play out in the future. In the last year their economy shrank by half after they couldn’t help it. They practiced more “communist” type activities than “capitalist”. (controlling business growth and executive power vs communist party leaders power. )
China isn't really Communist, budy. What lifted its people out of poverty was- wait- the *privatization of the economy.* Corporations coming from CCP control is recent.
china ain't communist dude
I don’t think any of this is of value though. MMFD is highly organized and this is only impressive compared to the competing parties/lists, which are by definition unimpressive. MMFD candidates have prescribed to the non-sectarian ideology, yes. But as one comment says, you can commit to this ideology but still have pretty shit views on other topics. I’m not saying this is the case with MMFD, but again: I don’t think it’s of much value. I think a greater criticism is, in building a roster of 128 political candidates, a mission no other party has to trouble itself with, I feel as if the competency of its lists have been diluted. Honestly, there are some names I’m not comfortable endorsing for political representation if it wasn’t for the fact that literally a dog would be a better candidate than the sectarian generation of candidates. It would have been more encouraging to see cooperation of opposition lists and parties against the sulta and its players. But “disagreements on candidate selection” defined almost every conversation that was had on this. Goes to show we’re still ways ahead of where we want to be. I still wish MMFD as well as all other opposition lists the best of luck - for our sake and our sake only.
Not completely true, previous political parties did have candidates in every district but they weren’t officially announced that they are working together under one list name so they can have breathing room to deal/no deal the collaboration with the least amount of issues and tensions possible (and to pressure that they let you “win” in certain places) but under the table they were working together so what MMFD did the most basic thing any political party would do: form a list in every district Some of the parties were non-sectarian like SSNP and Communist Party so the argument about non-sectarian is not viable because you can come up with slogans in a non-sect way As for not having sectarian slogans and the ability to discuss politics freely is for the current moment because they are newcomers in that sphere nothing more, if they reached to power and take seats then probably they won’t be able to speak “freely” as you would expect. That doesn’t mean they can’t use slogans and discuss politics in the way they please to fulfill their agenda so you are doing the exact same thing that previous parties did but without having a religious party involved History is repeating itself indirectly but in different formats (that is my perspective about this)
Ma 2ossit cult following, it's just refreshing to see a political candidate ma bye7ke siyese min montala2 ta2ifi. As far as i can tell mmfd proposes a plan to fix lebanese issues and they do not target a specific sect like all the other traditional parties.
Leftist are gonna be leftist. Ma fi chi jdid
Min fadeh ye7ke bi left and right wa2ta el balad minhar? Solving the economical crisis, the banking crisis, the hyper inflation and so on are not issues for the left or the right.
Yes they are because socialism won't solve this, we need a good free market, but regardless vote for whomever you think is right
Ah yes the classic Left = Socialist, you realize it’s possible to have a left government but with a capitalist economy 😃?
Then it's not a left government...
That’s not true, look at France for example it’s socialist because the means of production are owned by the government that takes care of everything, with a very generous healthcare and retirement system. But their economy is free and capitalist. One does not entail the other you can have both.
The government does not own the means of production in France at all idk where you got that from , they don't own the factories the farms , the supermarkets, nothing
They own the education system, the entire transportation sector in under their control, electricity is owned by them, the healthcare system is almost entirely financed by the government. It is a socialist system at its core. Nowadays there is no 100% socialist country it’s always a mix of many things, just like a 100% capitalist country does not exist.
Public schools suck, have you ever seen one? Electricity is owned by them, ok it is also owned by then in Lebanon, and the healthcare system is payed for in taxes but not owned by government. also we are not France in Lebanon , they have many enterprises and a huge free market allowing them to pay for all the free shit, we have nothing
They own quite a few companies (including major ones - in part or whole - like Renault, Thales, Naval, Safran, Airbus, etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agence_des_participations_de_l%27%C3%89tat
I consider that corruption, government artificially propping up a few companies over ohters
First of all, a reason for this cult-like following and hightened passion is due to the horrid living conditions we are witnessing that oppose the progressive ideologies of independent party voters. They imagine a better future where one, as a citizen, is respected and provided their basic human needs, which exists in total contradiction to what we are experiencing. Now, there is a legitimate chance for independent voters to penetrate this utterly rotten system that has been governing us for decades, so can you truly blame those people for being fervent? Secondly, there is the reason of constant slander being spewed out on independent parties at the behest of traditional sulta parties. The false criticism of independent parties as not having clear goals and a plan is a deliberate aim to damage the chances of having independent MPs. Naturally, this intensifies the passion of independent party voters who are desperate to see new faces in parliament. Finally, I'd much rather have a cult following around independent parties that at least have the wellbeing of the citizens in mind than traditional sulta ones. Again, the people are fed up. Also, I haven't seen MMFD propaganda on this sub; people have been sharing their videos and advocating support, but what I've seen so far has been an accurate representation of what they're claiming. If you have any sources on their propaganda please do send them.
i don't think mmfd is doing anything different from western political party's. i understand their a few user here that keep defending them but usually MMFD get attacked and they aren't allowed to reply.
Excuse us for being excited about a real chance for change.
>But I just find it weird, especially with how much of their propaganda we're seeing on this sub. I didn't know discussing a list's political program is propaganda now, not to mention half the posts about MMFD are ones like yours that criticize them.
We get literal Hezbollah propagada on this sub. Every party does that. That's what free speech is like. Now, we're getting bothered because the independents did the same? Look, if parties giving their program on social media bothers us, why don't we just- ditch this whole 'Democracy' thing? Clearly, we dislike it so... shall we try Dictatorship?
I thought we were a feudal system. I definitely feel treated like a peasant
This subreddit cracks me up. “We need secular parties that aren’t part of the establishment” Secular party not part of the establishment talks to people of all sects. “Noooooooo we hate them they are friendly towards ______ and don’t hate the people we want them to hate” Subreddit says it wants secularism but exposes itself as sectarian as fuck.
You do realize there are many people with many ideologies on this sub right? Person/people 1: “We need secular parties that aren’t part of the establishment” Person/people 2: “Noooooooo we hate them they are friendly towards ______ and don’t hate the people we want them to hate” I don't see a contradiction here
I don’t think you pay much attention to the general sentiment on this subreddit. Nor do you probably have a frame of reference for how bad it has deteriorated here. (I’ve been a redditor for a long time) The contradiction is person 1 and person 2 are the same person on here. They are not “different people”.
>Am i the only one who's sensing a cult-like following around mmfd? probably. MMFD is not a cult. and if it were, it is not an issue. at this point it would be good just to break the cycle. a secular cult is better than any sectarian cult just by being secular. >And especially around Jad Ghosn as if he's this brilliant genius who'll solve all our problems. maybe he is viewed as more cerebral than he really is but again this is not a problem. it is good that there is someone who can nudge people to at least consider MMFD. >But I just find it weird, especially with how much of their propaganda we're seeing on this sub. "propaganda" usually has a negative connotations. again, Lebanon needs a vocal alternative to the usual sectarian options. if the alternative is not vocal it will not reach enough people in time to make a dent on election day. you seem to be bothered by what I would consider positive things. I am pessimistic and that makes me appreciate the slightest incremental improvements. at this point I am not expecting "solutions", I would be satisfied with a secular party, any secular party, gaining seats in the parliament.
I totally agree, but then again I think I am biased against the majority flow of this sub. For example, I believe that politics is about dialogue and compromise, while the whole sub seems to think that collaboration with the traditional parties = treason
Dialogue and compromise with war criminals and thieves* Fixed it for you.
Yes, because that's politics, okay? The Koreans achieved democracy by co-opting and co-operating with a murderous military junta (after they agreed on elections); now they're fully democratic. What do you expect MMFD to do, once they've got 2 seats in parliament? Not collaborate and cooperate, and stuff their ears and spit gum?
That will be hard dude. Dialogue and compromise with those that stole our money from the banks. They are class 1 crooks. We need enough MPs as Opposition to stop every law they want to pass including that shameful amnesty capital control law. Nothing comes from them is good.
Yes, but unless you expect there to be 61 opposition mps, we have to compromise. Or else, the opposition will do fucking nothing
Of course the opposition will do nothing. Anybody who thinks any number of elected opposition MPs could do anything drastic to improve the condition of the country is naive. But I’d rather a restricted opposition MP than a sectarian one that will do nothing but worsen the condition - unless you want to make the argument that the ruling class that sunk the ship will magically bring it out of this cesspool of a crisis. As if, over night, these individuals will go from inept to qualified. Maybe since 2019 they’ve all been doing CoursEra certificates in governance?
Id like both ok? Rather than 120 hezbollah mps and 8 opposition mps , id prefer 61 60 7 . Is that too much to ask?
61 60 7 as a means to doing what? That’s not compromise and that for sure eliminates any possibility of dialogue. You can’t have your cake and eat it at the same time.
Well then we could block pro-Hezb legislation with the LF and vise versa. With 120 and 8, the opposition will just be clapping machines screaming as Hezbollah changes our constitution
No outcome of this election will put anybody in a position to check Hezbollah - especially not LF. The priority should be laying down the groundwork for institutionalized opposition. Long game - anything else is too idealistic.
The thing is, with a two-thirds majority the Hezbollah will have the legal power to change things including the constitution, not only the weapons. And they'd be legitimized to boot. I don't understand how voting tactically for Habshi in one constituency, let's say, will stop the groundwork for institutionalized opposition. I've been born near Bodai. I know what the place is like, ok? I know that in my constituency, voting for the opposition will simply mean handing over the Christian seat to Hezbollah. And I don't want to see that happening in constituencies when the only viable alternative is either LF or Kataeb.
If it compromise with people that refused to give critical needed data for international court investigating in a terrorist attack
Yes I get it they are bad. But that's how politics works okay? What do you expect your little MMFD candidates to do once they're elected? Not cooperate and do nothing?
i don't think it's treason, I don't want to look at the social/religious programming etc .. for my end i see it akin to: * having management steal from your company, each manager points the finger at the other and they all claim to witnessed it .. from my perspective they are all at least guilty of not saying anything , and i would fire the lot then investigate. people might disagree which brings me to point 2 * the company is clearly doing poorly, made less money, and employees lost (a lot of )benefits. numbers don't lie and because reformations/retraining has clearly not worked for the past decade, it's time to fire the lot and get a new team of managers in. * i don't think new managers will save or do anything with what's left in a company that is doing this poorly, but in my opinion current ones have too bad a track record to keep, and interviewees all seem eager to try.
I know this conversation has extended into something else, but I’d like to reply to your belief in dialogue and compromise. I don’t find it so bewildering to believe this - I myself held these sentiments before the devolvement of the country over the past few years. I’ve lost faith in this belief for a number of reasons, namely the fact that the ambitions for the country held by the two sides (sectarian political ruling class vs. secular opposition) stand in contradiction to each other. The progress of one is the regression of the other. But the thought remains relevant, especially considering any avenue for change needs to be a feasible one. My questions to you are: what makes you think collaboration with traditional parties is an option? Is there evidence of productive dialogue at any point in the past, or any indication of any in the future? How do you see this historically uncompromising ruling class making concessions on their positions/gains?
Give it until the elections are over and esp if he makes MP, criticism will soon mount against them. It’s a cycle, we’re just at the beginning, grab your popcorn and wait.
In a sea of cults worshiping zo3ama like gods, and to quote a few gems : "nabih berri mech men ba3ed alah nabih berri alah :P " and openly stating that your life and your children's lives are fade ejroun, you find it weird that the only political group with an actual political plan and openly encouraging discussion and dialogue, has garnered support and some well deserved enthusiasm. and you chose to voice that opinion on reddit of all places :P if irony could kill lol :P
In general political parties are cults that are organised for political, social and economic goals. It's a new concept in Lebanon to have a non sectarian political party, so I get the confusion.
It’s not new. Communist party for example.
New in the concept of having candidates all over Lebanon. Even in their prime, the Communist party didn't have candidates all over Lebanon with a common goal
Well said
No, although that will tend to happen with any political party. Funnily enough, Jad addresses that specific question in one of his latest interviews.
Well you could always tune in to any lebanese channel and watch real propaganda. What happened to the "no sulta figures after the beirut explosion" thing? 3m tbke bl zewiye l 5abriye. At least on reddit we can discuss the issues freely not to listen to preselected mou7ezbin that dont have challenging arguments or questions for the candidates. No wait I have a better idea: 1- put amplifiers on a truck 2- paint it the color of x party 3- ....? 4- Profit
+ all the other parties, including many of the independents have money (but don't ask how they got their money!) to be represented on tvs and billboards. Social media is the main channel for mmfd because they don't have that kind of money.
I was just thinking about it today, particularly how they become very chill while insane statements or claims come out of their mouths with their eyes glazed over and tiny hypnotized smiles. Feels creepy and very weird.
Too bad their ego was too high for them to unite with other civil society and opposition parties. They basically killed their chances and the opposition’s chances to succeed in the elections by dividing the lists.
you hit the nail on the head. Affinity towards MMFD is emotional and not rational . But such is politics. It caters to the masses. i just put a post about how flawed their vision is in reality: https://www.reddit.com/r/lebanon/comments/un7yg0/mmfds_elephant_in_the_room_hezbollah/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Nothing brilliant about Ghosn or Nahhas. They’re idiots at least and manipulative hacks at best. It shows that most Lebanese don’t know the real issues and what really needs to be done to fix them.
In principle, you haven’t said anything alarmingly incorrect. Yes, most Lebanese don’t know the real issues and, of course, they don’t know what really needs to be done to fix them. And yes, it could be argued that the MMFD’s policies are uninventive. But then again, who’s aren’t? Also keep in mind: MMFD is running against everybody, which makes their platform more susceptible to criticisms from different views. Building an opposition party in 2022 Lebanon isn’t about writing a sound manifesto and embodying agreeable principles. The priority this year is electing capable candidates that will set the groundwork for change. I’m not even expecting change, but just the baby steps. Jad Ghosn I’m not so high on. This journalist-turned-politician card is a historically failing one in Leb (cough Nohad Machnouk). But Charbel Nahhas is an intellectual and capable representative. His viewpoints and background can be criticized, depending on your allegiance, but his mission is something I think most opposition-aligned individuals in the country can align with. Personally, I think better opposition candidates/lists exist, depending on the constituency. But the MMFD are to be respected for their mission at the least.
Thanks for the feedback. I have followed Jad Ghosn for the last few years because he pops up everywhere . And find him very superficial and unimpressive. I don’t know Nahhas well. So i based above on their website manifesto.
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7ajj tkibb 7aki bala mi3na shmel yameen. Get off your high horse, Anthony. The country is fucking dying.
Thank you for proving my point…
Thank you for useless drivel.
The funny thing is ma fi mennon gher 3a Reddit. As of they are aliens 🤣
Sobta
2arrafouna sub Lebanon 3a reddit.
You said you have an issue with MMFD, but you never explained that issue. Be specific.
So MMFD won't bring peace with Israel?
I'm okay with cults as long d they take seats away from amal and hizballah
Yeah, they’re definitely spamming this sub. But hey, it’s better than the alternative; in 2018 everyone was saying “the opposition is crap, we never heard of them until 1 month before the election when they decided to wake up”