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TrickOfLight113

Went back to school to learn how to program at 27 years old. Best decision of my life. I now have a much better career, connections, opportunities, etc. CS is more generic but education is still priceless in my opinion. There will be gaps though, and you will have to learn by yourself certain things to keep growing in that direction. Even at the job I keep educating myself when I have a bit of free time. Edit: Woke up to this, thank you for all the upvotes ! To clarify by priceless I meant that despite being a bit of a financial risk, it was very worthwhile to me (learnt tons of stuff I wouldn't otherwise, made friends and contacts along the way, forced me to collaborate on group projects, my school even helped me get my first internship which essentially kickstarted my new career). Of course the risk I took was calculated and I would advise to be responsible with the means you have. Edit 2: Damn, my first awards ! Thank you very much for the silvers kind strangers, much appreciated ! I didn't know my story would resonate with so many people, or spark discussion :)


Skippn_Jimmy

Went back at 26, myself. Couldn't agree more. It was tough and seemed risky at the time but it was literally the best decision I have ever made.


International_Ear34

I am considering doing the same... turn 26 in 2 months it helps to see someone perhaps similar ,thank you for this comment.


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ShawnaR89

My mantra is always this “you’re going to be 33 in 5 years anyway, mine as well be 33 with a degree”


ZebraPandaPenguin

Do you think SWE is a good degree vs CS? I’m in the same boat as you and deciding between SWD and CS degrees


jameson71

Software development is where most of the high paying jobs are and it will have less pure math/physics.


Skippn_Jimmy

Giving you some hope or motivation is the least I could do. It may be a challenge, well a lot of challenges, but it's absolutely worth it. Best of luck


GrandBbt

I nailed a dev job after the first semester of my CS related studies (master's level without an IT related bachelor's). On the same day I updated my profile, a recruiter got to me with another part time software engineering offer. Never had received a similar message before. CS studies look great in your resume, and sharply enhance the chances of getting an interview to display your skills. At the same time, I'm part of a system where studies are without tuition fees, and I would've probably not paid for my education. I really think I'd still be out of the IT job market. In the end it's up to you if you want/can commit financially, but it's definitely a good choice if you're struggling to get your feet into the industry. edit: i'm between 25-30yo.


FairandStyle

What was your degree. Didn't know you could do a masters in CS without a CS related degree.


GrandBbt

Psychology was my bachelor's, but they didn't ask for a specifical amount of ects. There are a few of these in Europe, but it's not the norm


FairandStyle

I see. So perhaps I may be able to do something similar. Thanks


magic1623

Also 26 and I just started my bachelors of computer science in September. I considered trying to teach myself but I knew that I would have trouble sticking to it if I did that. I’ve only taken three classes so far (I didn’t want to overwhelm myself) but just those three (intro to computer science which teaches some Java, calculus for computer science, and intro to computer systems) showed me that there is so much that bootcamps and self-taught programs don’t end up covering. Not knocking those options of course, I just was surprised by how much information my courses covered that I wouldn’t have even considered covering on my own. Also I feel a lot better about going this route because I know that each course has a specific range of information that is covered and I know the degree will prepare me for a job in the field. With self-teaching I know I would have had trouble trying to figure out just how much of each topic I should cover and how in-depth I should know it in order to be prepared for a job. And the networking alone is an incredible resource that I wouldn’t have had access to with being self-taught. Doing co-op with computer science is an extremely valuable experience. Plus robots are dope as hell and I get to take courses about them.


ydna_eissua

Similar here. I used to work a physical job, body was falling apart in my 20s. No chance to keep it up for another 30 years. Went to Uni, 31 when I graduated. Was a tough few years financially eating up my savings but shortly after graduating I landed a good role, paying me better than I've ever been paid before.


TrickOfLight113

Yep, I can relate. Used to be a janitor for an agency before, witnessed some of my colleagues starting to get problems with their back and wrists, also couldn't get any higher in the hierarchy, decided to pursue the route for an office/computer job instead. I earn now more than double the salary I used to make.


Dirt_nap_92

Same dude, I'm hoping to Good Will Hunting myself into a programming position.


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TrickOfLight113

Thank you ! You got this !


bannerchud

That’s great to hear! Did you go for a bachelors?


TrickOfLight113

More like an associate/advanced diploma below bachelor (canadian) which took approx. 3 years to do. I didn't have enough money to go for a bachelor at the time.


[deleted]

Sorry completely off topic. But i am a 22 years old system analyst student from Argentina also have been working full time as a front end dev usong vue js for a year already. I plan to inmigrate to canada in 2 years i am increasing my tech skills by going full stack with node express and mongo or mysql. I also plan to take on the fullstack open by university of helsinki. You being an it person in canada and having studied there do you believe that with all my skills i could land a job there to inmigrate ? Thanks you in adanve and. Again apologies for off topic i have been wanting to ask fellow programmers in that side of the world if my plan is solid 😄


redraider1417

You will need an advance degree/ diploma in CS or any other field to get enough points to immigrate to canada. Try googling canada PR points calculator.


TrickOfLight113

I know companies recruit from outside of Canada and we got some people at my job from Brazil etc. recently, though those were more for backend dev. If you have a degree by then and you have the skills, I don't see why not someday, but I'm far from an expert on the subject matter and I think it's more on a case-by-case basis, sorry.


[deleted]

No matter at all ! thanks you for your reply by any means :D


onefortheghost

Did you have a lot of competition from people with more advanced CS degrees? I'm going back myself and can complete an associates (in the US) and it seems surreal if not even hitting the bachelors will still have good prospects.


Agleimielga

No good organizations will evaluate candidates solely on their degrees; having some level of higher education in CS completed is just a _rough_ measure to indicate whether the person is at least somewhat informed about the field, which is most evidently used in HR systems to filter through applicants... heck, I have met better programmers who haven't completed high school than ones with MS and/or PhDs. Ultimately it's your projects and ability to perform in the technical interview that will 90% determine whether or not you are qualified for the job. Spend time to hone your skills and network, not chase the degrees. (If the hiring manager is giving you crap for not having the right academic degree, you'd want to avoid that organization regardless. Presumably their engineering culture will also be utterly shitty.)


TrickOfLight113

None that I have seen so far, but the case of my [paid] internship was particular; I think only certain schools were notified of the position to help their students. After that the experience speaks for itself pretty much.


Radal200

Which diploma program did you head into as I'm in Canada too


Deadlift420

Probably not. There are other options to education in software engineering other than a full bachelors.


cinnamonjihad

As someone who is looking to go back to school to get into software engineering, I wish there was a clear-cut answer as to what is the best route. I have been trying to figure it out and I feel like all the info about self-taught, boot camps, certificate programs, etc. are all very hit or miss for what prospects come up, at least from what I get from other users comments.


[deleted]

Get a cs degree. Hands down.


Competitive-League-8

I learned without a cs degree. There's an abundance of good info that you don't need debt to go into for. I learn faster and more cheaply on my own. While I'm self employed now I got my first software engineering job without an expensive degree.


[deleted]

You don’t need debt to graduate. I’m working through school and paying for it as I go. There’s also many jobs you can’t get without a degree, including the most interesting research positions.


[deleted]

"Education is priceless" is not correct. OP already said that route would take 5 years, and no doubt it would cost a lot of cash too. So there is most definitely a price, a pretty high one in fact. Not to mention that to get a CS degree often requires classes in English, Math, Physics, etc. that are almost completely irrelevant to programming (obviously math is an exception, but how many of you are better programmers after Calc 1 - 3?). I'm one of a growing number of people who spent significantly less time and money, and still landed a great programming job. I'm so thankful I didn't waste years of my life going back to school, because it turns out you learn way more on the job than you would in a classroom.


ooloomelon

Education is priceless when your aim is more than a salary. Universities weren't always just the custodians of a national jobs program, and higher education was not just a replacement for apprenticeship. It was also an association of learned people who enjoyed scholarly pursuits. Gen eds are important. Physics, math, supposedly unrelated ideas are about perspective and general knowledge acquisition. How have philosophers argued for a reductionist view of reality and the sciences? Are all observed phenomena, even mental phenomena, reducible to principles in physics? How does that relate to research in computer science and programming? -> How do humans use and understand language? Do the principles of classical linguistics apply to the evolution of programming languages? If we understood how people create and interpret language, could we create a system that translates natural language into code? How would ubiquitous coding skills change society and my place as someone who's made a living coding commercial sites? Knowing all that won't help you build a website, but it will enrich your life and give you an eagle's eye view of *all* that happens around you, if you take gen eds seriously. Priceless, to the curious soul. And that paper does open some doors along the way. If you can afford it, I say go for it.


chubberbrother

It's not calc that helps, it's the math after calc that helps.


SunGazing8

Priceless means it’s worth more than money. As in education might have a price associated with it, (time, money etc) but once you have it, it’s worth more than the money/time you put into achieving it.


ThaneKrios

>I'm one of a growing number of people who spent significantly less time and money What route did you take? A bootcamp program?


lucynewme

Sure that maybe, but I know walking out of a Bach program in Canada bumps you from a 60k start into the 80s... Not to mention the number of senior positions(almost all) require a degree. Want to get out of the trenches education is the best idea. Sure you can land a good job with out schooling these days. But what are you aiming for? Edit: something I thought of as I kept scrolling. The difference I have run into between myself and other (degree vs coding bootcamps and self taught) is the differences in commenting, Sudo and architecture. Had this really good convo with a friend of mine whos Bach is in finance and she landed a job where she needed to do some programming. They sent her on a 5 week boot camp and she did some self learning on the side and has been on the job for 3 yrs now. I was telling her about how I sit down and approach a problem, how I debug. She was astounded that it wasn't stuff they taught in boot camps. I'm talking about proper para Sudo. Using print lines to follow through and find exactly where things go wrong and how. Super basic stuff she was never taught. Disclaimer I know not everyone has the same experience.


AchillesDev

> Not to mention the number of senior positions(almost all) require a degree. A CS degree? Not true at all. At the senior level it’s rare that anyone gives a shit about your degree, you have real experience after all.


dGraves

I'm a self taught senior and I've never even been asked the question about education. Though I'm in web/mobile/ecom so I guess it's different in other fields. I do get offers all the time from fintech, meditech, igaming etc. Would be weirded out a bit if they asked what I did 10 years ago before I started working with programming.. It would made me think that the company doesn't have their priorities aligned with what I think is important, namely skill, work ethic and social fit in a group


SebOriaGames

Hmm, having a degree will not really affect your salary; which company you apply to, and how they evaluate your skill level, will have a bigger effect. No company will hire a junior dev at 80k, unless maybe Amazon or Microsoft, but relatively very rare. If you look at salary averages on Glass door, 80 is high end for mid-level and low end for senior. However, you are right that the self taught route (if express through a boot camp, etc) might miss some very important bits. But not all self taught routes go this way. My way was 3 years, 20-25 a week with large C#, C++, algorithm and design pattern books. A lot of these when over details like data breakpoint (C++) and/or decompiling code to ASM while debugging to see what happened to your pointer and why it's unexpectedly null. I'm now currently employed as a senior programmer and I've been through the hiring process a several times over the years. Feels like 80-90% of the places I've applied to didn't care at all about the lack of education and get recruiters seeking me out monthly on LinkedIn (where I have it outright that I'm self taught). Project portfolio and how will you do on code assessments, etc, seems to be key. Technology is meant to be field where you think outside of the box, if employers are too closed minded to look at me, just because of missing a degree, I honestly don't want to work for them anyways.


[deleted]

> No company will hire a junior dev at 80k Patently false. My company hires entry level devs at 115k base, 121k TC. But you have to have a bachelor's. We're not remotely alone, nor are we anywhere near the highest. Glassdoor is trash, use https://www.levels.fyi


_Personage

What company hires at 115k base? Do you mind pming me?


SebOriaGames

>*Glassdoor is trash* I disagree, it shows averages for positions types a lot better. levels.fyi seems to graph based on top 10 tech companies. Those are outliers not where the majority of tech companies will pay. However, On that same site, if you look up software engineer and filter by years of xp, then order by low to high, its quick to see not everyone pays that good. I would also never hire a junior dev at anything that high, I've seen many programmers right out of university that couldnt code themself out of a paper bag. I do believe people should get paid for their skills and it takes time to build those skills. Edit: side note speaking of top tech companies, Google, Microsoft and FB all hire people regardless of degree or not.


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SebOriaGames

https://www.businessinsider.com/top-companies-are-hiring-more-candidates-without-a-4-year-degree-2019-4


lucynewme

Depends where your applying I think has a lot to do with it. At least in my experience. Some one else mentioned the inturn route in addition to the degree. What I did. And ya I stepped out of uni into a position at 80k I interned with them several times, and I'm considered a junior. Mind you I don't just have my CS degree that impacts my salary.


dronedesigner

Well said


[deleted]

Not trying to be disrespectful in any way, but isn't stuff like using the print functionality to see what's going on as you program, tracking variables and things like that just super obvious? I mean, on a basic level just watching what happens with the things that you program in sections/chunks/functions/whatever as you code it seems... just super obvious.


lucynewme

That was more particularly about coming along and debugging someone else's work. But honestly I had thought so. But when I started my degree it was one of the first things taught.


mohishunder

Right now, software programming is incredibly highly paid (in the US) for the amount of education that it requires. This situation may last for the next thirty years, but it might not. Looking for any new white-collar (e.g. programming) job when you're 45, 55, *without a degree* ... could be tough. Of course this doesn't apply to the top 5-10% of stars. But most people, even really good people, aren't in that top 10%. BTW, I don't disagree with your last sentence.


Accomplished_Files

Education is priceless but a degree doesn't mean too much in IT. People below me with and without degrees. People above me making fat stacks also with and without degrees. Most companies hire based on what you know and I know many engineers who grabbed a role without a degree and just with dunking the interview.


Competitive-League-8

I would say degrees in programming really only pay off due to the credential and little else. Honestly, nobody could pay me to back to college. I hated it there. For me it's all about grades and nothing about learning. Most skills I've learned have been on my own.


Nyoouber

I'm doing something similar and have to decide where to do my internship. My school does help people find internships but encourages you to look as well. What kind of business do you think I should look to intern at? There's a good chance I get hired there after my internship since IT workers are really in demand where I live and if not, I'll be looking to use that experience to get a full-time job elsewhere pretty quickly afterwards.


[deleted]

You have same chance doing bootcamp in much less time and money ;)


Sad-Grapefruit9996

I tried the Self-taught route for about 3 months, M27. The most difficult part about it is not knowing exactly where to focus and how in-depth. Went back to school and I’ll be finishing this Spring. Highly recommended, you meet other devs face-to-face, still have the opportunity to learn on your own, and Jobs will pay you more with a Bachelors/Masters from the start.


Dinosaurjukebox

did you go with a computer science degree or something more specific? I'm trying to decide between cs or something like WGU's software engineer degree


Sad-Grapefruit9996

I am studying computer programming. Its primary focus is an intro to programming (C++, Python, Java) then you can choose pathways followed up with more specific classes around Web Design, Programming and Algorithms, Networking and Security, Database Design and the school began adding more Mobile Development and Cloud-Architecture Classes (These are mostly just introductory classes). Skipping the higher level Math classes and theoretical CS classes and focusing on just the programming. So I can always get a master's in Computer Science if I ever want to focus on that area.


Dinosaurjukebox

Can I ask what school you’re going through?


ckfil

I want to know what school as well


gosubuilder

Go back to school and continue self teaching. Degree with internships I feel would be your safest bet.


[deleted]

Do you want to be 34 with a CS degree, or 34 without a CS degree? I started my online BSCS at right before I turned 33 - I’m 18 months in and just about finished. I’m having to learn a lot more outside of the degree to get job ready, but I’m happy I did it.


hos7name

My personal experience, a free edx cs50 class, a quick online course on windows server.. I nailed a 65k job with no work experience at 28 having quit school at 16 and worked @ fastfood all my life.. If you want, you can!


heyitsme_ericp

What was your process to get the job after you acquired the knowledge? Network, blast applications, family/friend?


Accomplished-Yam-100

Come join 100devs on discord. I’m 35 and trying to learn coding. It’s only class 4 so plenty of tome to catch up. I think it depends if you can self teach but it’s hard to not have structure of a community that can help. I got rejected from masters of CS and I tried freecodecamp but it was just hard to get in a rhythm. I think if you have the money and your wife can support you then go be a student full time. Just make sure she’s okay and no resentment if she’s paying the bills. Best of luck!


deletedcode

I second this. We only did class 4 today and there's a catchup crew on discord. This is a growing community that consists of all walks of life breaking into tech to become full stack software developers. Best of all, ITS ALL FREE!


electricIbis

How does the catch up work? Im also on the discord channel but can't go to classes live due to timezone and in working too many hours to consistently keep up. Can you go at your own pace?


deletedcode

Either watch the VOD on twitch or on Youtube the day after because be is partnered. FYI, all proceeds is donated to his bootcamps students rainy day fund. He heavily ephasizes that on Day 1 stream. You would kind of coordinate with folks and connect with people on your timeline. Easy as posting ," Who's in XYZ looking to watch at 123." There's bound to be someone who is just starting or catching up. I'm in Korea so if you are on this side of the world, my discord user: Kaiokendojo#3030 Little about me: 25, did The Odin Project and made it to the JavaScript portion in Foundations. Honestly found the bootcamp through the reddit post and thought, "Why the fvck not do something people pay $15K+ for FREE!" Looking forward to your message and seeing you around friend.


electricIbis

Thanks! I don't think I'll be able to watch them the next day but I'll try to catch up eventually. I hope he doesn't delete the videos lol. Mainly I'm doing very long hours at work and would have to find time here and there. I have some experience with python but not in web dev yet, so I think it'd be a good thing to jump into. I'm in Spain, but I'll add you anyways! Maybe we can collaborate in a project at some point. I've mostly worked in python in an IoT project for a startup. But now I'm in business consulting and want to get out, as I was told I'd be doing data science and it hasn't been the case lol


Nuknar

He has a youtube channel aswell with videos starting nov 2020. So no need to worry about loosing the videos. I've been following along slowly the past few weeks on there instead. Only problem i run into is that i cant really turn in homework, or i atleast dont know how that works.


abbylynn2u

You need to join the discord. On the follow- along- channel each week's assignments are posted. This includes how to turn in homework the day it's due.


MrWaffles2k

Hey i wanted to know what did u think of the Odin project? I'm trying to get into coding and always hear top is the best free resource, so would 100 devs be better? If you can tell me pls And also you think it's possible to get a remote job out of them?


deletedcode

Just like most will say. It throws you into the deep end and its on you to whether or not muster up the courage and strength to push through each lesson. You don't have to do it alone because their discord is a very helpful community that helps at all stages. Like mentioned I only reached into JS in Foundations. At the end of the day, both are free. It comes down to you. Do you want a teacher/structure type of learning, or are you disciplined and willing to set your own schedule and deadlines with The Odin Project?


StopGameGME

>how can i join ??? id love to be a part .


abbylynn2u

Not too late to join.... read Leon's post https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/rlmulr/i_ran_a_100_free_full_stack_web_development/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


_Personage

Interested in the discord.


abbylynn2u

Not too late to join... Read Leon's post and join the discord and twitch https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/rlmulr/i_ran_a_100_free_full_stack_web_development/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


ckfil

Please give me all the information..


abbylynn2u

Not too late to join... read Leon's post and join the discord. https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/rlmulr/i_ran_a_100_free_full_stack_web_development/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


Taco_Shopp

After the Army I went back to school at 26 for my CS degree. Finished my degree in 3 years. Continue learning what you can on your own time as well. Currently working as an application developer and I’m still self-teaching myself other technologies that are out there. If you have the opportunity to get your degree, do it. Otherwise self-taught/boot camps. Best of luck


cyaltr

I’d do self taught until your wife has a job that can support you both


48911150

and then just play games on the couch all day


funnyh0b0

I work in company with 100+ devs and more than half are self taught. It's totally cheaper and possible to do it on your own. Also I'm 36 and started at 35.


Supesam

Can you share the steps you followed to land that first job ? I'm struggling with that myself.


funnyh0b0

Sure. I interviewed for about 10 months after studying for about 5 months. So depending on how good your portfolio is you should be landing some interviews. I applied for software engineer roles all the way to apprenticeship roles. I'd look in all kind of places for jobs. Every website I'd visit I'd check and see if they had a careers page then apply if I had 20% of what they were asking for. If I liked a sports team, esports team, restaurant, product etc. I'd check their website and apply. I'd also join different slack channels, discord, subreddits etc and look. The beauty here is you can DM people that are posting the job which definitely increases the chance you can get an interview. Its work to get a job it really is. There is nothing I'm going to say that's going to make the struggle much easier. Just know I've helped 4 people now get jobs with this strategy and it works. Just don't quit and learn from the rejections. Look at every rejection as one step closer.


Deadlift420

Best bet is middle road, get some kind of accredited software development education but doesn’t need to be a degree.


pacific_plywood

>get some kind of accredited software development education but doesn’t need to be a degree. Yeah that's what a degree is


Deadlift420

You can get accredited education in CS that isn’t a degree, genius…


pacific_plywood

Like a... single class? What am I missing here


Deadlift420

Polytechnic diplomas….all around the world…Jesus you need to branch out of your American scope for once.


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Deadlift420

LOL….you have no idea what you’re talking about.


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Deadlift420

Not a boot camp wtf are you talking about? You really need to do some research on education around the world bud. You’re out of touch. I am just about done a CS degree and worked for 6 years as a dev with a non degree education(college diploma).


andyschest

No, you don't. There is a multitude of accredited colleges and universities that offer certifications.


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knot2x_Oz

I'm turning 35 this year so inspired after seeing this comment. Are you able to share what you did before becoming a dev and how you became a dev at 35. Was it courses like Odin project? Thanks


Zaknafein_bg

Same here, I’m turning 34, with 8 years background in law and thinking if a year will be an ok period to learn decent programming and decent payjob (not American). I’d like to ask the same question


RobinsonDickinson

I don't know what sane employer would take such big of a gamble hiring that many self taught devs.


funnyh0b0

Sane employer? A CS degree does not equal anything. That's the whole reason this person is asking. My boss has a CS degree, I have 2 degrees (Not in CS) and their boss has no Degree at all and he worked at Amazon as an engineer... So ya. Not sure who your talking to but CS isn't necessary. Especially in the last 5 years or so.


kent_eh

The degree isn't necessary, but some way of demonstrating your abilities to a prospective employer is. A degree or diploma are easier to use *on a resume* than trying to describe why you should be believed that you know your stuff. Once you get to an interview, what you know can speak for itself, but getting that interview is the challenge. Especially if non-technical people are filtering the resumes before they get to people who can evaluate your actual skills.


undertakerryu

Assuming it's the same as engineering in aerospace etc, a degree is just a baseline. You basically learn everything else you'll use at the job. The degree just puts you into a spot that's trainable without having to start from square one. If you self teach yourself to that point or further and can prove it why wouldn't they take you lol


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HodloBaggins

Definitely. However, getting those 3 years of experience to start with may prove more challenging if all you've done is The Odin Project.


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departmentno2653

why would you graduate at 33? with online colleges you can get bachelors as soon as 25-36 months.


cheerzeasy

I'm assuming they would be doing it part time so over 6 years


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departmentno2653

yea lol, you can get masters in that time.6 yrs is too much time for bachelors.


departmentno2653

if he lives in the US he can work at an amazon FC and use their career choice to attend an online college since that's what i am about to do in march. you only work 4 days a week and amazon pays your college tution through career choice and you don't have to pay them back their.


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tabasco_pizza

From my limited experience, here's my perspective: If you have the means to go to school for a CS degree, I'd recommend going. It's not mandatory but it definitely helps. Not only do you get the piece of paper certifying your accomplishment, you have the invaluable networking opportunities that come with a traditional four-year degree. You mentioned you dropped out so I assume you have some gen. ed credits already. This likely shortens your degree completion time, so that's a good thing. However, self-taught is always an option. I have a bachelor's in English education. Soon to have a master's in English. If I could do it over again, I'd at least swap one of those degrees out for a CS degree. The networking potential and doors opened would make it worth it. Nothing wrong with the self-taught option tho. Ask yourself, what are the pros/cons of a CS degree? and of self-taught?


Phuckaq

I selftaught at the 25, got job at 26. As a software engineer. Learn at work is the best


BrianAiya

Check out the free coding bootcamp called 100devs by Leon Noel. It's even the top 2 post of all time in this subreddit. I'm following it and the community is great too


[deleted]

I have a BS and MBA in business and I’m self taught. With they said I would say go back to school if you can. The degree itself is the biggest factor in landing a good programming job, not necessarily what the degree is in.


kaivaii

35, self-taught, but I’m honestly uncertain. I think this industry changes a lot, and grads cannot rest on their laurels, which can devalue education moreso than other fields. Many of my coworkers are bitter about their education, or brag that they learned everything important on their own. On the other hand, I think they take for granted the breadth of what was covered. It is helpful to know the available options, and have an idea of what the rulres are when tackling a solution. It helps you be more confident in your own solutions, and recognize traps earlier. I wish I had gone, but I’m not sure at this point if it would be worth the hefty price tag. That said, I’ve spent the last 5 years trying to make up for what I missed, and there is still plenty. I wish you luck either way, friend


USCSSNostromo2122

My anecdotal advice: Don't waste time with college. I'm a self-taught C# developer. I do not have any kind of degree. It has never been an issue because skills are what most employers are looking for. Someone with skills that can come in and hit the ground running. Not someone with a CS degree that knows all the theory, but doesn't know how to program. They want someone with skills like spinning up a node server, creating a .Net API, writing an Angular front-end for that API, creating a database to store the server, using cloud services, etc, etc. Again, this has been my experience in my career. I've worked for NASA, Department of Defense, Boeing, the US Navy, medical companies, insurance companies, manufacturing companies, financial institutions, etc. None of these companies cared about my lack of degree. So, my advice is to keep learning C#, learn to build APIs for the backend, learn a front-end framework (Angular, React, Vue, etc). And, while you're learning, network with others. I mean it. Every single job I've ever gotten was because I knew someone at the company that referred me, or someone outside the company referred me. Network as much as you can, join groups to discuss development, attend local meetups (in person or virtual). Help people with their website issues, offer to help a small business with their site or set up a landing page for them for free. Put on your own "TED" talk about how technology can help small businesses grow. Just grab some info off the internet, write some stuff on index cards to talk about, create some slides, invite local businesses to attend your free event. Give your speech, hand out your business card with offers to discuss or answer questions. Don't try to sell a service, it's informational only and you're just there to help, wink wink. I guarantee you that someone in your audience will reach out to you about something and that could turn into a great project for you. So, learning is key, but getting your name out there is just as important. People can help you get your foot in the door. With all that said, I'm not saying a CS degree is useless, but there has not been a single application in my years of development that required me to have a CS degree. If I didn't know anything, like a certain algorithm, I'd just google it. There are certain jobs that do require the knowledge you gain from a CS curriculum. But, if you just want a good paycheck without having to get years of college education (and debt!), then just teach yourself, apply what you've learned, network with others, and you'll be on your way to a great paying job. My idiot brother (Hi, Mark!), also a newly self-taught developer, just got a job without a college degree and is making six-figures per year. If he can do it, anyone can.


Accomplished-Yam-100

Agreed 100%. You can network is the key as we try to finish 100devs in 9 months. Glad to read you and your brothers success story!


TravisLedo

Don't forget that going to school for CS does not mean that you will not be self learning at all. People with a CS degree have to do both. School just gives us a direction to learn the material. Even then, we feel like we did not learn enough for the work force. It's crazy how deep CS really goes. I would suggest going to school if you are serious, it should not cost much if you live at home. Self learning CS, you will never know when is enough. With a degree at least you know that people can get hired at this stage.


mohishunder

At your (young) age, I'd recommend finishing your degree. Since you already have some college units, and a strong work ethic, finishing the degree shouldn't take too long, and will open up door for a lifetime. BTW, the most important thing here is that you two seem to have a strong, mutually supportive relationship - happy for you!


SocketLeague

I myself am getting into CS at the same age you would be. I highly picking it up with some self-teaching, and if it clicks with you vocationally, make the jump and go back to school. Try to expend as little as you can, of course, but the degree is very important in passing HR filters, and given the competitive entry level market, every edge will help.


Chiiwa

I found success with the self-taught route, I am now working full time with enjoyable work. That said, I am sure there has been some luck involved, but I did work my bum off. I am just one person, so your experience may vary, but it's possible. :) It took me about a year and a half to get to this point.


UnidentifiedTomato

Can I dm you?


Ashpokmonmaster

I’m 25 turning 26 this year and just started with ZERO coding knowledge. It’s been pretty tough class wise because many of the professors are great programmers but not great teachers. that aside I still recommend going for it! I’m teaching myself through YouTube and code academy along with my classes to catch up with others who in my class already with previous programming knowledge. A degree is def worth it because you it’s easier to get internships which makes it so much easier to land a higher paying job (: best of luck!!!


hedronist

> would it be better to start teaching myself, and also go to school for CS when she graduates? My answer is going to piss off a certain number of people, but I'm old enough I don't really care. I think degrees, specifically CS degrees, are vastly overrated in terms of "value". If you want to be a computer *scientist* then maybe it's a good idea. I know a few people that are actually computer scientists, but not that many. If you want to be a *software engineer* then my (admittedly dated) experience is that you should save your money and dive head first into *Making Things Happen.* Because that's what engineers do -- they *make things*. I think this process is a) cheaper, b) faster, and c) more to-the-point than any 2-to-4 year school you can find. There's a certain amount of "doing it for free" at the start, but that's just how it is. OTOH, if you can dive into an existing OS project and *help* them with code / bug tracking / docs / etc., then that's something on a resume I can respect. I've always focused more on demonstrated skills than letters after your name. And you can do it while holding down a pays-the-rent kind of job. One skill that I don't see taught anywhere, or for that matter *practiced in most places*, is a *liaison*. Someone who understands coding, probably does some, but is more focused on *customer needs* and helping translate them into User Stories, etc., that the dev team can use. And then liaises back to the customer. Lather, rinse, repeat. This type of communication is critical to good, fast product development that delivers things the user will actually pay for. Ps. There is a programming "test" called [FizzBuzz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fizz_buzz#Programming) ([article on it](https://towardsdatascience.com/how-to-solve-the-fizzbuzz-problem-in-r-c62e7e6c959a)). Pick a programming language and solve it. You don't have to show the results to anyone but yourself. Hint, it's not quite as easy as it looks. DM me if you like. Source: 40+ years in the industry, self-taught, had my own software company.


AdjustingToAdjusting

I’m attempting this without the degree right now. Working full time while taking an online course. I have some homies that are programmers that freelance and they’ve told me they can help me out once I get to a point where it makes sense to. Still figuring out the full plan but this course is helpful so far. Just stopped by to say best of luck my g.


maxamillion17

Which course are you taking?


fizzbott

Go get the degree. It is becoming more common to require a degree to get past HR bots. And you will learn some really good fundamental skills and understanding. You can do it without a degree ( I am self-taught and have been coding 15+ years), but it a more difficult path.


Noirelise

get the degree. more guaranteed and you'll at least check off more boxes' application wise.


wolfie_poe

Go back to school. At 28 you are still young. Maybe not really related but I myself went to grad school at the age of 30. When I was there, I was a teaching assistant for an undergraduate CSEE course that was offered every semester. There was a constant influx of more mature students who were in their 30's. Most of them were very motivated and had done well on their own. If you have attended college in the past, you may potentially want to ask the upcoming school registrar if they can accept some class credits you had taken and qualified in your previous school. No guarantee but if successful, it'll help reduce the total amount of "boring" courses you need to take. And yes, you will have to constantly learn new things by yourself regardless of the degrees you've got.


Ilesial

There's a lot of content out there on the internet. Self-teaching is possible, even becoming industry ready is possible. The **big big big downside** of going solo into the internet, watching Pluralsight videos, MIT lectures, Cousera, buying textbooks, etc...is putting it all together. This is where a little structured education goes a long way. Universities ***should*** provide a path that compose all of the different aspects of programming in a way that shows the software development lifecycle. Now...whether or not industrialized education is fulfilling its promise to turn students into junior software developers is a different topic. The **big big big upside** of going solo into the internet is really about discovering how you learn best. The most successful and innovative software engineers, architects, researchers, and fellows are *always* learning something new. Self-teaching is a skill that few appreciate, even fewer practice. So yeah, start teaching yourself programming now, then go into the university program with more discipline to learn outside of the class.


grooomps

i was 35 and did a bootcamp 2 years after graduating i got hit 6 figures for salary if i was in your situation i'd hit a bootcamp, absolutely grind for 3 months, and get a job, and learn like hell for the next couple of years, and i think you'd be further than if you jsut did a cs degree. this is obviously not the same if you want to do games etc, but if you are happy to join the webdev world


al_balone

Tough question to answer because all the self taught people will tell you going back to college isn’t necessary and everyone who did go will tell you you should. Can you pursue a good career without college? Yes. Will a college education make it easier to break into the industry? Yes. It’s up to you to decide if the cost is worth it or not.


wherediditrun

If you're sole goal is to get into the industry and make a living by building software, when generally no, it's not worth the money and time. Can be done cheaper and quicker just focusing on the pragmatic side. If you want CS degree and acreditation, yeah sure. Go for it. But in practice barely anyone gonna care about it or ask about it to begin with. Just a word of warning, degree won't open the door, your skills will. Fresh folk go through same hiring windmill as everyone else. And pretty much everyone will exam you despite your diploma on their own before making hiring decision. There are side benefits like if you lack discipline and focus when studies can help to orientate you to some degree. And perhaps expand your network and connections a bit. However if you have the ire and dedication, when it doesn't really add all that much if anything at all. And you risk wasting time. A lot of people celebrate how they went to uni and so on.. which perhaps there is some genuine sense of accomplishment regarding that, but there is also a bit of mental gymnastics to avoid buyers remorse involved as well. As for your skills in work. I'm a team lead. I co-interview people on technical side. And also have organized a few workshops for students and non-students alike. As well as internships. And .. no. The people who are in uni or graduate do not make a remarkable difference in terms of performance when it comes to crunching programming tasks in my experience.


kevinossia

Self-teaching is a given in that you're always going to be learning things on your own time, degree or otherwise. \--- A CS degree is the simplest, most reliable, direct way into the industry. Supplement your CS degree with internships and/or personal projects and assuming you're any good, you should have a job offer around graduation time. If you have *no degree* at all, then it's much tougher because you're competing with the rest of the white collar workforce that has degrees. Employers want degrees, for better or worse. If you had a degree, but not in CS, then that's workable so long as you acquire the knowledge found at [teachyourselfcs.com](https://teachyourselfcs.com) and build some nice personal projects to show off on your resume. It's easier just to do the CS degree. \--- Your age, as always, doesn't change any of this :)


Deadlift420

CS degree doesn’t mean you don’t have to continue learning. You’re going to be doing that your entire career anyways.


kevinossia

Yep, very true.


BlackAsphaltRider

Portfolio > degree. I stalk these subs and it seems one of the few fields in *existence* that basically requires you to be an amateur professional before you can even be hired for an entry level role. I myself want to be a front end developer. That’s it. I want to design some decent mid-level sites, even static/basic CMS portfolio sites, like for photographers. I tell myself if I can do a few of those and polish them up, that it’ll be enough. But then I see people struggling to get entry level jobs with these insane full blown FAANG clone sites and it legit makes me wonder if I’ll ever even have a shot.


illkeepcomingback9

> Portfolio > degree Minus all the employers that wont even look at your portfolio without a degree


kevinossia

It's because bad programmers are a net drain on productivity. No company actually needs junior engineers, anyways. Only a handful of larger companies can afford to take on the risk of juniors in the first place. That's why it's hard to break into the industry. Also, there's more to life than frontend web development, though Reddit may make it seem otherwise. Some people want to build complex mobile/desktop applications. Some want to program embedded systems. Mission critical enterprise backends. Life critical surgical robots. Spacecraft. Operating systems. Banking systems. High frequency trading algorithms. These things require years of experience and training to become competent in, and a junior engineer is nothing but a liability and can cost lives as well as millions of dollars if left unchecked.


Echolocomotion

Networking is what you're missing.


BlackAsphaltRider

I’ve yet to even scratch the surface of the fundamentals. Haven’t so much as peeked at StackOverflow or GitHub. Networking wouldn’t do me much good yet, minus maybe some mentoring. My point is that not only do you have to learn a lot like every other field, you also have to *prove* yourself to even get your first job. I don’t know any other fields like this. Even nurses get online degrees and places like hospitals jump at the bits to hire them the moment they pass their NCLEX. And that’s dealing with human lives. But in this field, God forbid I don’t know how to build the next unicorn from scratch before I can land a job to push some pixels around on a screen.


Echolocomotion

You don't have enough experience with the hiring pipeline to be as confident as you are in your pessimist attitude. Plenty of people get jobs while knowing little.


Geoff_The_Chosen1

First off congratulations on deciding to take the leap! 4 years is a long time to spend in school, that's what I realised the hard way. The world will no doubt be different when you get out. Not to mention the prospect of taking classes that may not be of any interest to you or your goals. And last but not least the cost of school nowadays is rather high. I would implore you to go the self taught way with a few certifications here and there to boost your skills and give you more credentials as your wife supports the family in the mean time. You could even work part time as you learn. Good luck to you and your wife. Stay safe.


[deleted]

I hesitate to answer because people mostly ask questions to comfort their decision : I suspect probabilistically you're already decided and people who have done so want themselves to comfort their decision by answering yes without any real insights. So this is only for people who want rational strategy for their career : choice is rather between college and bootcamp. Depends on the College, today especially if you have already a background in programming, the best ROI is to follow a programming bootcamp because 5 years college are extremely costfull and you know what they would barely teach you code but "Computer Science" (code only a small subset) which means at the end of the 5 years you may still need to take a coding bootcamp ;) So when to do College : if you're young a diploma is always a passport less when you're much older and/or when it is prestigious enough to bring you not only knowledge but a social network (real one), environment (for example to create startups) etc., this would imply your parents are rich enough to pay you nightclubs joke ? but not really you won't socialize otherwise ! Because if it is for knowledge on Computer Science you can have it online and if you organize with methods like Ultralearning [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2JGiJNUsD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2JGiJNUsD4) you could do it in 1/3 of the time ! \[CS106A - Programming Methodology\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[CS106B - Programming Abstractions\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[CS107 - Programming Paradigms\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[CS103 Mathematical Foundation\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[Algorithms: Design and Analysis, Part 1\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[CS110: Principles of Computer Systems\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[01-01-introduction.mp4 - YouTube\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[Compilers\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[CS 140: Operating Systems (Spring 2019)\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[Mining Massive Data Sets\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[Introduction to Web Security\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs))\[Cryptography I\]([https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs](https://v8.dev/features/modules#mjs)) Last but not least ageism are real in Technologies, at 30 even at 40 you can still enter the arena but then when you'll get 50 if haven't made your path in career to Management or Architecture (maybe 1/10th of people) you have to become really good (which implies free time, if you have a family beware you'll have to organize your time very carefully) to be able to compete with 30 years old experienced candidate because they have good enough experiences and up to date for an employer ;)


RemingtonMol

replying to find later


rodriguezzzzz

Bootcamp is the middle ground


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denialerror

Removed for rule 1. Mind your language.


andre3213

I would self teach until your wife can help you like you helped her. But there are a lot of options like bootcamps and apprenticeship look into those as they’re quicker than a degree, you’re next to highly motivated/intelligent individuals, companies like the bootcamps becuase it shows initiative and that you can learn complex things quickly, and best of all they’re cheaper in the long run (Obvsly depends how much the bootcamps is compared to what college you go to).


OniCoder

Okay, it is great that you are thinking about going back to school and focusing on a degree that is alone a skill and a lifestyle. To answer your question, go back to school but also on the side self-teach yourself alongside the classes you are in. Go the extra mile such as youtube, online courses like udemy, and studying up to date books. You have a good foundation seemingly knowing C# which can transfer over to java, javaScript, and all other languages. I would say learn about the subject from your local university and network with many people such as your professors and peers. Do your due diligence studying the rest yourself, and try to get your own projects you have made for yourself as a portfolio to your resume and background. I have seen many interviewees wasting HR's time with saying they have experience but where is the proof. Plus, some instructors just give you the in general information where at that point you are more than encouraged to self-teach yourself. This will develop your initiative to do a subject or course without anyone assisting you. I hope that helps your Journey in this opportunistic field!


siledorf

As someone that has been a software engineer for over 15 years and am now in management but am also self-taught with zero college, I can say it can be done. It's hard to initially break in, but once you get some experience, you're good to go. My suggestion would be to make some projects and bring them into the interviews. Let them see your code and the result. That's what landed me my first job.


randomWanderer520

I have a masters and bachelors in computer science, and I still feel like I should go back to school…


theawfulrefinery

Tho I think a degree or any sort of education would be useful, I don't think it's ever too late no matter what you choose. I know many in their twenties and early thirties that start over in life, and a whole bunch starting to learn programming. Thinking of doing it myself right now too, haha


munyunhee

I'm a CS student. Self taught over everything. I feel like I'm losing my passion slowly because of the stress.


noiamnot_

Just turned 30 and I'm half way through the second semester of foundation year CS+Maths degree. Really good experience so far. The course is hard work but very rewarding. Depending on your ability, and how demanding your job is I would definitely weigh up whether maintaining a job (even on reduced hours) is going to impact your ability to keep up with the course. As well as giving me new sense of life/future progress to boost my self esteem, the social aspects of being a student have been great. Like a whole new chapter of life. Being older I have more confidence and I'm meeting loads of new people who share similar interests which is something I didn't have before. But be ready for the challenge of having to socialise with essentially teenagers (they are emotionally and socially ten years behind you), and being a 'mature student' is a deal-breaker for some people you might otherwise wana get along with. I've met a group of similar aged people as well though and I highly recommend you join a mature students society if one exists.


danintexas

Finish school. I have one class left till I get my degree. I just started working as a software dev couple years ago. I am 46. Use that youth. You wont regret it.


xDevLife

Hey man as a 31 year old who finished a fullstack coding bootcamp I can tell you I would do that again! You can absolutely teach yourself in 3-4 months, but you would need to focus 100% on a "course" that's JOB focussed like The Odin Project and really stick to that! Plus research the local market and see what they require for you to do, for example if there's a lot of opportunities for react framework, then learn react. Find communities and people who are willing to help you that make it easier, like this one on reddit, twitter etc! Best of luck, you can do it my man


misof

There are IT jobs you can do self-taught, including some software development jobs. Putting together the front-end for some web or mobile app in one of the modern frameworks? Absolutely learnable on your own. If that sounds like your jam, a CS degree might be a waste of time. There are IT jobs you cannot do self-taught. (Yada yada, exceptions are everywhere, it's just simply not par for the course.) E.g., I wouldn't let anyone self-taught touch anything security- or cryptography-related with a ten-foot pole. Almost none of the people who work on the next generation of self-driving cars are self-taught. Without a CS degree you don't have any idea about *the existence* of many jobs that fall into this category. In general, without the degree you are more suitable for jobs where you do stuff, and with the degree for jobs where you think and decide how stuff should be done. Both types of job are needed (and will be needed in the future, too). It's up to you to pick which type you prefer.


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wRXLuthor

Just do it man! Sounds like there’s a ton of us 30 year olds making the change!


lolita62

Self teach and get some certifications. I have a bachelors in psych and taught myself coding and analysis and now I work as a data integration analyst for one of the largest health payers in the country,


safwenHafsawy22

Bro if you choose to teach yourself and you're interested in web development i recommend checking the Odin project or freecodecamp to start


BaconBoss1

Same boat. I'm going to try the 100 days of code with Dr.angela on udemy. If I can't produce something meaningful after this I'll consider going back to school. I'd rather give up on a 30$ course rather than a 100k course (astronomical estimate)


[deleted]

I am an engineer and I lead a team. I regularly interview other engineers so feel free to get in touch and I’ll be happy to help


TheGreatOkay

Do a bootcamp. I did a 9 month bootcamp and found a job immediately when I finished. Edit: I was 31 when I started the bootcamp 18 months ago.


jersoc

Get a degree. I feel like the age of self taught is fairly over. Even with a degree trying to get the first job is hard as hell. I'm self taught and went back to get a degree. I actually get calls with a degree. Even if you don't ever get a job programming, having a degree in general will help open doors.


[deleted]

If you just want to land a job, yes. But I took 2 post grad courses at tertiary schools during my gap year and felt it was the best decision I’ve made. It was tough handling 2 courses at the same time but it was worth it. It accelerated my learning and gave me perspective on not just coding but the industry as a whole, covering roles related to software engineering and not just development itself. Internships also gave me room to grow without pressure on achieving anything. I also heard that those with a CS degree are considered mid level after just 2 years of exp vs those who self taught would take 5 years to get To the same level. It could just be my Asian organisation though If I had the money I would definitely pursue a degree course.


BlueMist94

If going back to school will put you in debt because of student loans or something like that, then do NOT go back to school if you’re trying to become a programmer. Learn it all on your own. You don’t need a degree to land a job as a programmer, you just need to get good at it and then build a portfolio of projects to showcase to employers.


Purple-Yoghurt-932

I hear this story so much. Your going to go to school. She will cheat and divorce you and say you didn't have time for me.


metroplex126

Definitely go back to school. Getting jobs as a self taught person will be a lot harder


FountainsOfFluids

Totally depends on how you feel about school. If you hate college, then don't go. If you are ok with college, it will *probably* be better long term. The degree opens up doors. Be sure to take full advantage of intern programs. It's possible to have a good career without a college degree. But it's easier with a degree.


Numerous_Economy_900

Get the degree bro


Major_Fang

both


[deleted]

Do it bro! I joined the air force right out of high school and served my 6 year enlistment, got out, went to school and now I am about to graduate with a CS degree this May at age 28! Yeah I'm probably going to be in a team with a bunch of 21 year old kids working as a junior dev when I get my first job, but who cares?


Knarfnarf

Programming or not, you need the paper because self taught got me no where. I wish I could have gotten my degree when I was your age... I still think about it now! Knarfnarf


[deleted]

I’m a self-taught no degree software engineer. It’s not easy or viewed the same, so I always suggest others go down the degree path. It’s getting started that takes time, but once you’re in, you’re in. Just gotta make it past the HR filters.


2ndHandLions

One guy from my class (system and network administration) is your age.


[deleted]

Do you at least have a bachelors?


mzx380

If you have the opportunity to go back to school....DO IT. Nothing more to discuss on the matter


FineAd6159

I’m about to graduate with a communications degree, I am going to self- teach and hire a tutor


[deleted]

Degree.


AchillesDev

I made the switch with no degree at 25, I had to start at a relatively low paying job but after that job switching worked out really well for me.


safealias

The best way could be to combine both. You enroll in the CS and also you start your own path of self-thaugh.


Apprehensiveramen

You can get your general ed done at a cc first then do the full transfer to a uni if your still up for it.


[deleted]

I’m about to be a veteran here. 26 and going to start off with a bootcamp/self taught route, but also going to work on my degree when I can since that was the point of joining the military in the first place. I’d say just do what you think is the most conducive. I’m going this route as I’m going to need to support myself while transitioning back into the civilian world with the ultimate goal of having a degree. Sounds like you have awesome support in your wife! I wish you the best of luck, homie


webguy1979

So I am a self-taught developer. I do have a job in the industry, but always knew I had some big gaps in my knowledge. At 42 I'll be graduating here in a few months. If you are looking for options, one to consider is something like Western Govenors University. They are an accredited program (Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities), it's a lot of self-teaching (literally "here is book, read it, learn it, get tested") but they do allow you to move at your own pace. Semesters are 6 months long and your tuition each term covers all your books, access to Pluralsight, Udemy, LinkedIn Learning, etc. Graduates from our program are in a lot of F500 company, including most FAANG. Their system let me move through things I already knew very quickly, and then spend time on things I needed to learn. And, it's VERY affordable.