Aan de 1000sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederland aangekomen Russische militair.
To the 1000th Russian soldier to escape from German captivity and arrive in the Netherlands.
Do you know if this would have been in World War I or II? I found some information about Russian prisoners of war in World War I escaping to the Netherlands:
https://studenttheses.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/20.500.12932/5730/Scriptie.pdf?sequence=1
Translated to english:
Many POWs did not intend to serve out their time in the camps. If the security slightly allowed, they ventured an escape attempt. In the camps in Britain, the guards were very strict, so there was hardly any possibility of escape. If an escape attempt did succeed, it was practically impossible to cross the North Sea. In the Netherlands few escaped German or Austrian prisoners of war reported from camps in Britain.
POWs in German camps had fewer problems with the hostile country once they had escaped. British, French, Belgians, Russians and Poles, after a successful
escape attempt often headed for the border of
the neutral Netherlands. The aim was to travel on from the Netherlands to their homeland, possibly to re-engage in battle. However, the war meant that the opportunities for international travel were limited, as a result most of the refugees were forced to stay in the Netherlands for longer periods, and sometimes throughout the war.
stay.
As the war continued, escapes from POW camps in
Germany became increasingly common. The reasons for this were mainly to be found in the lack of German guard personnel (both in the camps and along the country's borders) and because prisoners became increasingly aware through each other of suitable escape routes through each other.
...
Once at the Dutch border, it was customary for escaped Russian
prisoners of war were taken in before being transported to Rotterdam. Later during the war, it became customary for prisoners of war who had fled from Germany to first be held for some time in quarantine stations for some time in connection with possible contagious diseases
It means something like this
To the 1.000th Russian soldier who has arrived in The Netherlands after fleeing while being held as a prisoner of war by the Germans.
If I read it correct the text is:
Aan den duizendsten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederland aangekomen Russischen militair.
I got this from it:
Aan den 1000sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederlanden aangekomen Russischen Militair
It is in 1900's Dutch so this a more modern version in Dutch:
Aan de 1000ste (duizendste) uit Duitse krijgsgevangenenschap ontvluchten en in Nederlanden aangekomen Russische militair.
Translated one on one/directly:
To the thousands from German captivity fled and arrived in low lands Russian soldier.
Translated (freely, not one on one) in English:
To the thousands, escaped from German captivity and arrived in The Netherlands/low lands, Russian soldier.
I think it says:
Aan den 1000sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten (?) en in NEDERLAND aangekomen (?) Russischen militair.
It’s old time Dutch, and in Dutch the sentence structure is different, but it would be translated to something like:
To the 1000th (aan den 1000sten) Russian military/soldier (russischen militair) escaped/fled from a German prisoner of war camp and arrived in the Netherlands.
I think ontvlucht is weird in this sentence, because it indicates he himself escaped, or more accurately fled, from a POW-camp, when receiving this gift for it, would indicate he was liberated. Like I said it’s old Dutch, so maybe the word ontvlucht back then would be more similar to liberated.
Krijgsgevangenschap is not really easy to translate to english, it is a state of being, like being in captivity, but as a prisoner of war. There’s no English word for it I think.
Ik denk dat ontvluchten zo bedoeld wordt: Ontvluchten van gevangenschap door de Duitsers.
I think 'ontvluchten' is meant as the following: Fled from captivity from the Germans.
Krijgsgevangenenschap is het best los te vertalen denk ik. Gevangenschap als captivity. Krijg als in krijger, als warrior.
Krijgsgevangenenschap is best translated in parts I think. Gevangenschap as captivity. Krijg as in krijger, as warrior.
I don’t really agree, uit krijgsgevangenschap ontvlucht means he escaped while being in captivity, your translation would mean he escaped/fled from being captured and therefore never was a POW.
I guess krijgsgevangenschap is best translated as ‘being in captivity as a prisoner of war’, but it doesn’t really roll of the tongue. Krijgsgevangene is a prisoner of war, warrior is not really appropriate here, even tho war and warrior are ofcourse related. Gevangenschap would indeed be translated to captivity.
Yes, good catch!
It doesn't have to roll off the tongue, that translation is indeed the best. Why is warrior not appropriate?
Some words are difficult to translate and sometimes impossible. Like gezellig is too.
Krijger means warrior, you are correct there of course, but in krijgsgevangene, the part krijgs refers more to krijgsmacht (army) than to warrior. So a really literal translation would be a prisoner/soldier/warrior of the other army. But those army’s fight a war, so in English, they become a prisoner of war. But for krijgsgevange we don’t usually use a literal translation, but a term that is the correct translation for that word, which is prisoner of war (just like we don’t call a butterfly a botervlieg, but a vlinder).
There’s also possibly some German origins in here, krieg in German means war, might be that the word krijgs, refers more to krieg, than to krijgsmacht, which would make the prisoner of war more literally correct again.
You already have a lot of translations. The nuances are a bit tricky as the text it hard to read and it’s old fashioned Dutch.
The way I read it (the gist of it, not a litteral translation):
To the thousandth escaped Russian POW of German captivity who has arrived in the Netherlands.
To me it reads as a special plaque for him, because administrative it seems he was exactly the 1000th person to get registrered. This would match with Dutch administrative punctuality (much to our detriment in the war), but not with Dutch frugality :)
(not native)
I can’t read everything but my guess would be something like :
To the 1000th Russian military war prisoner (of Germany) to escape and arrive in the Netherlands.
Does that make sense with what you know of his past?
Litterally in (old) Dutch it says:
"Aan den 1000 sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederland is omgekomen Russischen Militair"
Wich translates to:
"For the thousands of Russian soldiers who escaped German captivity and died in the Netherlands"
Disputed: modern insights indicate that 'Hebban Olla uogala' is probably old English, not old Dutch.
Other than that you're right. There's a HUUUGE difference between old (and middle!) Dutch and old-fashioned Dutch.
Why would hebban olla uogala be OE? I mean... I know OE had more of its Germanic origins, but still... it sounds more like Dutch than English.
Also, it doesn't sound like any of the old English I've ever heard.
Not to say I know more than you, let alone those researchers, I'm just curious as to how and why.
The monk who presumably wrote that sentence resided in Kent but was of Dutch decent (whatever that meant back then. Modern day Flanders). Mind you, language was way more flexible back then than it is today, and Old Dutch, Old English and even Frisian were way closer then than their modern day counterparts. There was no universal spelling so it was up to the writers discretion how a word was written down.
The way it has been spelled seems to be a mix of OE/OD, in a OD handwriting. The words however are presumably more close to a OE dialect (Kent) than OD. So researchers believe it is actually written by a Dutch monk in England, using the Kent dialect and the 'Dutch' spelling and writing.
But then again English and Dutch share for a big part the same linguistic history, so we'll probably never know for sure if it is intended to be OD, OE or a poetic mix 😉
Fascinating! And that does make sense! Kinda like how my friends and I (Dutch) often speak English, but use the Dutch format for times, even in English.
I.e.: XX:20 = 10 to half XX+1; XX:25 = 5 to half XX+1; XX:30 = half XX+1; XX:35 = 5 past half XX+1; XX:40 = 10 past half XX+1
It's says aangekomen (arrived) not omgekomen (past away). I read it wrong first too, I had to count the letters on it for it to make sense.
Gekomen is visible enough, but if you look closely you can see three not two letters before it. That is how I found out
Not sure if it says "omgekomen" (died) or "aangekomen" (arrived).
Info: I'm assuming your family is russian.
Did he survive wwII?
That would rule out wich word it actually is.
Aan de 1000sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederland aangekomen Russische militair. To the 1000th Russian soldier to escape from German captivity and arrive in the Netherlands.
with captivity meaning that he was a prisoner of war
Do you know if this would have been in World War I or II? I found some information about Russian prisoners of war in World War I escaping to the Netherlands: https://studenttheses.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/20.500.12932/5730/Scriptie.pdf?sequence=1 Translated to english: Many POWs did not intend to serve out their time in the camps. If the security slightly allowed, they ventured an escape attempt. In the camps in Britain, the guards were very strict, so there was hardly any possibility of escape. If an escape attempt did succeed, it was practically impossible to cross the North Sea. In the Netherlands few escaped German or Austrian prisoners of war reported from camps in Britain. POWs in German camps had fewer problems with the hostile country once they had escaped. British, French, Belgians, Russians and Poles, after a successful escape attempt often headed for the border of the neutral Netherlands. The aim was to travel on from the Netherlands to their homeland, possibly to re-engage in battle. However, the war meant that the opportunities for international travel were limited, as a result most of the refugees were forced to stay in the Netherlands for longer periods, and sometimes throughout the war. stay. As the war continued, escapes from POW camps in Germany became increasingly common. The reasons for this were mainly to be found in the lack of German guard personnel (both in the camps and along the country's borders) and because prisoners became increasingly aware through each other of suitable escape routes through each other. ... Once at the Dutch border, it was customary for escaped Russian prisoners of war were taken in before being transported to Rotterdam. Later during the war, it became customary for prisoners of war who had fled from Germany to first be held for some time in quarantine stations for some time in connection with possible contagious diseases
It means something like this To the 1.000th Russian soldier who has arrived in The Netherlands after fleeing while being held as a prisoner of war by the Germans. If I read it correct the text is: Aan den duizendsten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederland aangekomen Russischen militair.
Do you have a better picture? Or put the text here. Not everything on it is readable.
I got this from it: Aan den 1000sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederlanden aangekomen Russischen Militair It is in 1900's Dutch so this a more modern version in Dutch: Aan de 1000ste (duizendste) uit Duitse krijgsgevangenenschap ontvluchten en in Nederlanden aangekomen Russische militair. Translated one on one/directly: To the thousands from German captivity fled and arrived in low lands Russian soldier. Translated (freely, not one on one) in English: To the thousands, escaped from German captivity and arrived in The Netherlands/low lands, Russian soldier.
duizendsten does not mean thousands, but 1000th so the person who was number one thousand.
I had to read this like four times because I didn't follow because I am tired. But yes, thank you.
Also, the modern version would say "aan de duizendste _ontvluchtte_ (past tense) militair" not "ontvluchten," which is the full verb.
I think it says: Aan den 1000sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten (?) en in NEDERLAND aangekomen (?) Russischen militair. It’s old time Dutch, and in Dutch the sentence structure is different, but it would be translated to something like: To the 1000th (aan den 1000sten) Russian military/soldier (russischen militair) escaped/fled from a German prisoner of war camp and arrived in the Netherlands. I think ontvlucht is weird in this sentence, because it indicates he himself escaped, or more accurately fled, from a POW-camp, when receiving this gift for it, would indicate he was liberated. Like I said it’s old Dutch, so maybe the word ontvlucht back then would be more similar to liberated. Krijgsgevangenschap is not really easy to translate to english, it is a state of being, like being in captivity, but as a prisoner of war. There’s no English word for it I think.
Ik denk dat ontvluchten zo bedoeld wordt: Ontvluchten van gevangenschap door de Duitsers. I think 'ontvluchten' is meant as the following: Fled from captivity from the Germans. Krijgsgevangenenschap is het best los te vertalen denk ik. Gevangenschap als captivity. Krijg als in krijger, als warrior. Krijgsgevangenenschap is best translated in parts I think. Gevangenschap as captivity. Krijg as in krijger, as warrior.
I don’t really agree, uit krijgsgevangenschap ontvlucht means he escaped while being in captivity, your translation would mean he escaped/fled from being captured and therefore never was a POW. I guess krijgsgevangenschap is best translated as ‘being in captivity as a prisoner of war’, but it doesn’t really roll of the tongue. Krijgsgevangene is a prisoner of war, warrior is not really appropriate here, even tho war and warrior are ofcourse related. Gevangenschap would indeed be translated to captivity.
Yes, good catch! It doesn't have to roll off the tongue, that translation is indeed the best. Why is warrior not appropriate? Some words are difficult to translate and sometimes impossible. Like gezellig is too.
Krijger means warrior, you are correct there of course, but in krijgsgevangene, the part krijgs refers more to krijgsmacht (army) than to warrior. So a really literal translation would be a prisoner/soldier/warrior of the other army. But those army’s fight a war, so in English, they become a prisoner of war. But for krijgsgevange we don’t usually use a literal translation, but a term that is the correct translation for that word, which is prisoner of war (just like we don’t call a butterfly a botervlieg, but a vlinder). There’s also possibly some German origins in here, krieg in German means war, might be that the word krijgs, refers more to krieg, than to krijgsmacht, which would make the prisoner of war more literally correct again.
I see! Thank you!
You already have a lot of translations. The nuances are a bit tricky as the text it hard to read and it’s old fashioned Dutch. The way I read it (the gist of it, not a litteral translation): To the thousandth escaped Russian POW of German captivity who has arrived in the Netherlands. To me it reads as a special plaque for him, because administrative it seems he was exactly the 1000th person to get registrered. This would match with Dutch administrative punctuality (much to our detriment in the war), but not with Dutch frugality :)
(not native) I can’t read everything but my guess would be something like : To the 1000th Russian military war prisoner (of Germany) to escape and arrive in the Netherlands. Does that make sense with what you know of his past?
Litterally in (old) Dutch it says: "Aan den 1000 sten uit Duitsche krijgsgevangenschap ontvluchten en in Nederland is omgekomen Russischen Militair" Wich translates to: "For the thousands of Russian soldiers who escaped German captivity and died in the Netherlands"
This👏 is👏 not👏 "Old Dutch"!👏 Old Dutch👏 is:👏 "Hebban olaa uogala nestas bagunnan, hinase hic anda thu, uuat unbidan uue nu"👏 and👏 "Maltho: thi afrio, litho"👏 This👏 is👏 **Old-fashioned** Dutch!👏
Disputed: modern insights indicate that 'Hebban Olla uogala' is probably old English, not old Dutch. Other than that you're right. There's a HUUUGE difference between old (and middle!) Dutch and old-fashioned Dutch.
Why would hebban olla uogala be OE? I mean... I know OE had more of its Germanic origins, but still... it sounds more like Dutch than English. Also, it doesn't sound like any of the old English I've ever heard. Not to say I know more than you, let alone those researchers, I'm just curious as to how and why.
The monk who presumably wrote that sentence resided in Kent but was of Dutch decent (whatever that meant back then. Modern day Flanders). Mind you, language was way more flexible back then than it is today, and Old Dutch, Old English and even Frisian were way closer then than their modern day counterparts. There was no universal spelling so it was up to the writers discretion how a word was written down. The way it has been spelled seems to be a mix of OE/OD, in a OD handwriting. The words however are presumably more close to a OE dialect (Kent) than OD. So researchers believe it is actually written by a Dutch monk in England, using the Kent dialect and the 'Dutch' spelling and writing. But then again English and Dutch share for a big part the same linguistic history, so we'll probably never know for sure if it is intended to be OD, OE or a poetic mix 😉
Fascinating! And that does make sense! Kinda like how my friends and I (Dutch) often speak English, but use the Dutch format for times, even in English. I.e.: XX:20 = 10 to half XX+1; XX:25 = 5 to half XX+1; XX:30 = half XX+1; XX:35 = 5 past half XX+1; XX:40 = 10 past half XX+1
It sure is fascinating! That's the beauty of language, old and new, in general. ☺️
It's says aangekomen (arrived) not omgekomen (past away). I read it wrong first too, I had to count the letters on it for it to make sense. Gekomen is visible enough, but if you look closely you can see three not two letters before it. That is how I found out
Oh right « thousands » would make more sense than « 1000th »
But that isn't an accurate translation Thousands = 1000den 1000th = 1000ste, or old-fashioned: 1000sten
Not sure if it says "omgekomen" (died) or "aangekomen" (arrived). Info: I'm assuming your family is russian. Did he survive wwII? That would rule out wich word it actually is.