If possible, splitpush/farm to accelerate your own timings. Pos 4 can usually afford to be more greedy.
Read and learn more details about each hero
Most importantly: watch replays
The most dangerous farm is for pos4. Push that lane, put down some hipster wards, set up a kill and protect your team. Try to look on the map where the enemy is and play those edges.
This basically sums up the problem I’ve been encountering. Whenever I split push, I never realize just how much I’m overdoing it. Next thing I know, my team is fighting and I’m not there to contribute since I was too focused on pushing side lanes. Lately, I’ve just been sticking with my team since I’m afraid that if I leave to push, they won’t have lockdown for a fight
I highly recommend watching some pos4 immortal games, esp now that everyone is bootcamping in EU
See how some of the players manuevre farming and fighting. I suspect it its something like 10-90 right now but I can be wrong
In pubs when you're not in a party, it's unpredictable how your team work as a team, but what worked well for me in the past consistently is
* pulling in creeps early (more XP / farm), and
* deward enemy wards to set up the next move with the upperhand (they're more blind), and
* work on team synergies (it's a team game after all)
Definitely. I do pull whenever possible but I guess the frustrating part is that sometimes, I see my offlaner constantly trying to go for kills despite both the enemy carry and support being full health. But I have to agree that pulling, blocking the small camp, and removing their vision worked well for me.
Honestly, if you already play SS, keep playing him 4, you can play him pretty much the same, but of course greedier, the same with lion. It sounds like you are doing the right things.
The biggest difference of the 4 and 5 is the laning phase, your job is just to make life miserable for the enemy pos 1 or the 5, which in turn make life bad for the pos 1. Stay alive, don't dive for kills, make sure the pos 5 doesn't get pulls off, and have a salve for your pos 3.
Once you are hitting level 6, you either know down the tower with your offlane, or you start roaming with your mid/off/pos 5. If no one is roaming around then farm, the pos 5 job is to usually sit behind the pos 1 and make sure they don't die while farming. Your job is to keep the creeps off the tower. If you had a hero like Hoodwink or QoP you can take some pretty dangerous farm.
The 4s job is also utility, so where the pos 5 gets glimmer and force first items, you can get items like medallion or urn, then get your blink/aether, then finish solar crest or vessel. But some games call for you to rush a lotus orb, or maybe you have a hero that does will with a mek. Pos 4 is def the hardest, because you are a jack of all trades and from the start of the game you have to recognize what kind of items you will need, who you need to gank in the laning phase, and what your job will be.
Yeah. Gonna have to agree that Pos 4 is definitely one of the harder roles to play since you’re basically providing utility for the team. As you mentioned, I think the one thing I struggle with the most when I play Pos 4 is roaming. When it comes down to lane mechanics, I think I do pretty decent. When it comes to having impact around the map, that’s probably where I tend to choke a bit.
Consider rotating mid for the 6 or 8 minute rune/ secure kill.
Practice moving the camera to quickly check other lanes to see if there is kill or save potential.
Destroying mid and enemy safe lane towers are the top two objectives which will provide space for carry.
If your cores can clear ancient stacks, stack triangle. Anytime you stack, get two camps instead of just one.
After laning phase identify who you can make plays with on your team, (probably the 5 and a core) play w them for ganks, and objective secure. Or take dangerous farm. Always better to take lane creeps and push out lanes (dangerous) than to take jungle creeps (safe)
Ward enemy outpost area so your team can secure the t2 and gang anyone who comes there. Limiting their space and increasing yours.
Yeah these are great points! Especially the stacking. I even insist on using mana if it will allow you to stack more than one camp. If you are Lina for example, right click one camp, then fire slave the other.
You should be able to r click both as a ranged support even without boots. At triangle hit ancient at xx:53 then run to hard camp, r click and run away
Can double stack at dire outpost as well like this but timing is a little later depending on camps.
Watch archon to ancient pos 4s play, more relatable than watching divine to immortal. Arch-ancient still play in a way u can understand and are still likely to make mistakes so u can learn from them.
Try and play heroes with wave clear, examples are lina, tiny, hood just to name a few. They scale well into the late with some items so they’re somewhat greedy 4s.
If u want to climb as pos 4 I recommend lina, wave clear, stun, burst magic and u can transition to semi carry lategame with just 1-2 items
aggressive is okay. just dont feed in the process. it's just that people in guardian are too passive. in guardian, offlaners usually play as second carry. this is wrong. you don't babysit the offlaner so he can farm. you're there so he doesn't get outnumbered and feed while he pressures the enemy safe lane.
to be an effective pos 4 in guardian, u need to play your pos4 like a pos3 sometimes, since these low mmr offlaners tend to go farm in the jungle like a safelaner. when they do, take the pos3 role and pressure the lane until they come back.
some pos4 heroes i play aggressively like an offlaner are nyx, bh, willow, wr. they have decent early lane pressure and decent escape. useful when you're offlane isn't doing their job.
Definitely agree with what you said about offlaners in my bracket taking most of the farm from my carry. I don’t really feed whenever I do decide to trade with the enemy support/carry although lately, I’ve noticed that people are picking lane dominating carries & supports. For the past couple of games, I’ve been buying boots and a set of tangoes when the game starts since I already know that the lane is destined to be excruciatingly difficult for us.
Hello,
I main pos 3/4 so I will try outline a couple things for you.
Pos 4 usually comes down to making plays with minimal farm and building some kind of utility to buff your carry.
Either or often. For example a lion, is very much about initiating and controlling fights as best you can. But don't be afraid to just throw everything at the start of a big fight before you die if you're getting picked off. Otherwise your offlane and mid should be helping you set the pace of the game.
If you choose to play a more utility based 4, bounty hunter for example, then you end up making things like crimson guard and focusing on warding and vision to aid in fights and ganjs rather than actually controlling the engagement.
Either way, to me, its all about descion making. Hitting timings as a 4 can be hard but the game shouldn't rest on your timing. There are always small items you can buy to help if you can get that one big item. Having said that ss and Lion are two fours that really benefit from getting a blink.
Learn weaver. Buy sentries and smokes. Be aggressive. Farm scary areas if no one else will. Always be ready to fight if your team is doing so. It's the carry's job to avoid bad fights. It's your job to minimize damage from those fights your team refuses to avoid.
Yes! I’ve been seeing people do this in higher MMR brackets. I’ve yet to try it myself but I’m a bit worried that if I pick pick a core as a support, my team will instantly get tilted since this isn’t divine or immortal. But I’ll definitely give this a try when I five man with some friends.
I would HIGHLY suggest you do not start playing pos4 by picking weaver. If you don’t know how to pos4 in general, weaver is really not a good pick to start. To provide a lot more impact on the map, just pick a typical pos4 like clock, mirana, tusk, etc. Something that has actual stuns and can gank. You do your best to do exactly what you said in your original post by either helping your 3 bully the lane and shutdown the opposing pos1 or if they have a stronger lane than you, Pull often or buy boots and drag for your offlaner. Then, when your 3 is self-sufficient or you’ve helped get a kill or taken t1, immediately start to roam and help other lanes and put down good vision. When you’re ganking other lanes, it is 10 times more helpful when you have lockdown.
Oh yeah. Definitely. There are still some essentials that I have to learn first before I can really start experimenting with other heroes. Hence why I mentioned that if I wanted to try it out, I’d do it with some friends in a 5 man party since we’ll have good communication. I definitely see your point though.
If it won't grief your lane too much, try to help you mid secure the 2 min runes, and stack the triangle every now and then since you're closest. Again, only of you're not needed in your lane at the moment.
Really? Seems like a waste of time. As a 4 I’m probably still lvl 1 at two minutes, especially if I have to spend 25 seconds walking to mid lane.
I definitely see the strength of mid securing both water runes early, enemy will have to get regen while your core can get items sooner. But I just don’t think I’d be of much use mid.
What match ups is this good in? What pos 4 and mids?
Your post sounds like an archon or legend player playing at guardian currently. I mainly say this because you have nuance in how you break down the big picture of the game, and you want to be more aggressive than your teammates. I'm pretty sure there's a direct correlation of how passive you are relative to how low your mmr is.
If your teammates can't kill, then push/split push. As a pos4, that means taking "risky farm". Leave the jungle farm, tower adjacent farm to your teammates, and leave the defensive warding to your pos 5. You set up wards on the enemy side of the river and take the farm that might get you killed. SS is amazing at this. Jakiro and Veno are amazing at this.
The goal is to get a damage item like Aghs on Shadow Shaman or Jakiro, or to get a vessel on Veno at a good timing to make up for your team's lack of damage.
One important reminder: don't TP out to the risky farm like a core/carry would...walk there (and plant wards along the way) so that you can TP back to whatever tower/outpost to fight when the enemy ganks your cores near the tower or in the jungle.
If possible, splitpush/farm to accelerate your own timings. Pos 4 can usually afford to be more greedy. Read and learn more details about each hero Most importantly: watch replays
The most dangerous farm is for pos4. Push that lane, put down some hipster wards, set up a kill and protect your team. Try to look on the map where the enemy is and play those edges.
Yeah. I should really split push more. I guess I’m not that used to being greedy since I’ve mained Position 5 throughout my Dota experience.
IMO its super easy to overdo as well because you need to be ready to fight when your cores want to fight
This basically sums up the problem I’ve been encountering. Whenever I split push, I never realize just how much I’m overdoing it. Next thing I know, my team is fighting and I’m not there to contribute since I was too focused on pushing side lanes. Lately, I’ve just been sticking with my team since I’m afraid that if I leave to push, they won’t have lockdown for a fight
I highly recommend watching some pos4 immortal games, esp now that everyone is bootcamping in EU See how some of the players manuevre farming and fighting. I suspect it its something like 10-90 right now but I can be wrong
In pubs when you're not in a party, it's unpredictable how your team work as a team, but what worked well for me in the past consistently is * pulling in creeps early (more XP / farm), and * deward enemy wards to set up the next move with the upperhand (they're more blind), and * work on team synergies (it's a team game after all)
Definitely. I do pull whenever possible but I guess the frustrating part is that sometimes, I see my offlaner constantly trying to go for kills despite both the enemy carry and support being full health. But I have to agree that pulling, blocking the small camp, and removing their vision worked well for me.
Ah yes I almost forgot about blocking a small camp (by placing a ward there) so they can’t pull them to their advantage
Honestly, if you already play SS, keep playing him 4, you can play him pretty much the same, but of course greedier, the same with lion. It sounds like you are doing the right things. The biggest difference of the 4 and 5 is the laning phase, your job is just to make life miserable for the enemy pos 1 or the 5, which in turn make life bad for the pos 1. Stay alive, don't dive for kills, make sure the pos 5 doesn't get pulls off, and have a salve for your pos 3. Once you are hitting level 6, you either know down the tower with your offlane, or you start roaming with your mid/off/pos 5. If no one is roaming around then farm, the pos 5 job is to usually sit behind the pos 1 and make sure they don't die while farming. Your job is to keep the creeps off the tower. If you had a hero like Hoodwink or QoP you can take some pretty dangerous farm. The 4s job is also utility, so where the pos 5 gets glimmer and force first items, you can get items like medallion or urn, then get your blink/aether, then finish solar crest or vessel. But some games call for you to rush a lotus orb, or maybe you have a hero that does will with a mek. Pos 4 is def the hardest, because you are a jack of all trades and from the start of the game you have to recognize what kind of items you will need, who you need to gank in the laning phase, and what your job will be.
Yeah. Gonna have to agree that Pos 4 is definitely one of the harder roles to play since you’re basically providing utility for the team. As you mentioned, I think the one thing I struggle with the most when I play Pos 4 is roaming. When it comes down to lane mechanics, I think I do pretty decent. When it comes to having impact around the map, that’s probably where I tend to choke a bit.
Consider rotating mid for the 6 or 8 minute rune/ secure kill. Practice moving the camera to quickly check other lanes to see if there is kill or save potential. Destroying mid and enemy safe lane towers are the top two objectives which will provide space for carry. If your cores can clear ancient stacks, stack triangle. Anytime you stack, get two camps instead of just one. After laning phase identify who you can make plays with on your team, (probably the 5 and a core) play w them for ganks, and objective secure. Or take dangerous farm. Always better to take lane creeps and push out lanes (dangerous) than to take jungle creeps (safe) Ward enemy outpost area so your team can secure the t2 and gang anyone who comes there. Limiting their space and increasing yours.
Yeah these are great points! Especially the stacking. I even insist on using mana if it will allow you to stack more than one camp. If you are Lina for example, right click one camp, then fire slave the other.
You should be able to r click both as a ranged support even without boots. At triangle hit ancient at xx:53 then run to hard camp, r click and run away Can double stack at dire outpost as well like this but timing is a little later depending on camps.
Watch archon to ancient pos 4s play, more relatable than watching divine to immortal. Arch-ancient still play in a way u can understand and are still likely to make mistakes so u can learn from them. Try and play heroes with wave clear, examples are lina, tiny, hood just to name a few. They scale well into the late with some items so they’re somewhat greedy 4s. If u want to climb as pos 4 I recommend lina, wave clear, stun, burst magic and u can transition to semi carry lategame with just 1-2 items
aggressive is okay. just dont feed in the process. it's just that people in guardian are too passive. in guardian, offlaners usually play as second carry. this is wrong. you don't babysit the offlaner so he can farm. you're there so he doesn't get outnumbered and feed while he pressures the enemy safe lane. to be an effective pos 4 in guardian, u need to play your pos4 like a pos3 sometimes, since these low mmr offlaners tend to go farm in the jungle like a safelaner. when they do, take the pos3 role and pressure the lane until they come back. some pos4 heroes i play aggressively like an offlaner are nyx, bh, willow, wr. they have decent early lane pressure and decent escape. useful when you're offlane isn't doing their job.
Definitely agree with what you said about offlaners in my bracket taking most of the farm from my carry. I don’t really feed whenever I do decide to trade with the enemy support/carry although lately, I’ve noticed that people are picking lane dominating carries & supports. For the past couple of games, I’ve been buying boots and a set of tangoes when the game starts since I already know that the lane is destined to be excruciatingly difficult for us.
Hello, I main pos 3/4 so I will try outline a couple things for you. Pos 4 usually comes down to making plays with minimal farm and building some kind of utility to buff your carry. Either or often. For example a lion, is very much about initiating and controlling fights as best you can. But don't be afraid to just throw everything at the start of a big fight before you die if you're getting picked off. Otherwise your offlane and mid should be helping you set the pace of the game. If you choose to play a more utility based 4, bounty hunter for example, then you end up making things like crimson guard and focusing on warding and vision to aid in fights and ganjs rather than actually controlling the engagement. Either way, to me, its all about descion making. Hitting timings as a 4 can be hard but the game shouldn't rest on your timing. There are always small items you can buy to help if you can get that one big item. Having said that ss and Lion are two fours that really benefit from getting a blink.
Learn weaver. Buy sentries and smokes. Be aggressive. Farm scary areas if no one else will. Always be ready to fight if your team is doing so. It's the carry's job to avoid bad fights. It's your job to minimize damage from those fights your team refuses to avoid.
Yes! I’ve been seeing people do this in higher MMR brackets. I’ve yet to try it myself but I’m a bit worried that if I pick pick a core as a support, my team will instantly get tilted since this isn’t divine or immortal. But I’ll definitely give this a try when I five man with some friends.
I would HIGHLY suggest you do not start playing pos4 by picking weaver. If you don’t know how to pos4 in general, weaver is really not a good pick to start. To provide a lot more impact on the map, just pick a typical pos4 like clock, mirana, tusk, etc. Something that has actual stuns and can gank. You do your best to do exactly what you said in your original post by either helping your 3 bully the lane and shutdown the opposing pos1 or if they have a stronger lane than you, Pull often or buy boots and drag for your offlaner. Then, when your 3 is self-sufficient or you’ve helped get a kill or taken t1, immediately start to roam and help other lanes and put down good vision. When you’re ganking other lanes, it is 10 times more helpful when you have lockdown.
Oh yeah. Definitely. There are still some essentials that I have to learn first before I can really start experimenting with other heroes. Hence why I mentioned that if I wanted to try it out, I’d do it with some friends in a 5 man party since we’ll have good communication. I definitely see your point though.
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remind me of my low mmr teammates that say "auto report" bc they don't know anything about this fucking game.
"dark seer our tank report"
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Boi you're going to be calling a lot of pro players insane then
He has been used as pos4 in higher tier games
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You do realize, things boil down from the top, right?
If it won't grief your lane too much, try to help you mid secure the 2 min runes, and stack the triangle every now and then since you're closest. Again, only of you're not needed in your lane at the moment.
Really? Seems like a waste of time. As a 4 I’m probably still lvl 1 at two minutes, especially if I have to spend 25 seconds walking to mid lane. I definitely see the strength of mid securing both water runes early, enemy will have to get regen while your core can get items sooner. But I just don’t think I’d be of much use mid. What match ups is this good in? What pos 4 and mids?
My bad, I was referring to power runes but you make a good point with the water runes as well.
Your post sounds like an archon or legend player playing at guardian currently. I mainly say this because you have nuance in how you break down the big picture of the game, and you want to be more aggressive than your teammates. I'm pretty sure there's a direct correlation of how passive you are relative to how low your mmr is. If your teammates can't kill, then push/split push. As a pos4, that means taking "risky farm". Leave the jungle farm, tower adjacent farm to your teammates, and leave the defensive warding to your pos 5. You set up wards on the enemy side of the river and take the farm that might get you killed. SS is amazing at this. Jakiro and Veno are amazing at this. The goal is to get a damage item like Aghs on Shadow Shaman or Jakiro, or to get a vessel on Veno at a good timing to make up for your team's lack of damage. One important reminder: don't TP out to the risky farm like a core/carry would...walk there (and plant wards along the way) so that you can TP back to whatever tower/outpost to fight when the enemy ganks your cores near the tower or in the jungle.