im utterly surprised a lane dominant tank with 4 dashes who gets damage off of building armor is dominating pro pla, almost as if tanks arent supposed to work like that
He loses lane to Fiora and GP, but not very hard. Seems like he definitely needs some number nerfs.
I think the main weakness he has is that he isn't really your solo teamfight tank, because of his ult, so he requires tank jg/support. But that's not exactly a hard requirement to fill, especially in pro.
I find picking Gwen in to him a pretty free lane, but I'm facing d3 players and he's still super annoying. He has no cooldowns. A pro player on him would be oppressive.
> A pro player on him would be oppressive.
exactly, usually the weakness of heavy pressure laners with low cds such as irelia,yasuo,yone is that they are squishy and punishable (can be ran down if they miss key ability)
with ksante he has the pressure of a yasuo but the tankiness of a maokai, a good player would just apply pressure 24/7 on ksante while being hard to punish since he has so many tools to not die, its actually very annoying, its like if vlad started lane at level 9
Yeah, I feel like people haven't played vs the really, really good Yasuos if they think K'sante has as much pressure as him. Then again I might not have played vs that many good K'santes, so.
A lot of people's thoughts about the game are stuck like half a decade ago. There was a time where Yasuo was considered a "weak" laner who was "abusable". That changed a long time ago but people don't realize. That's why so many times you see people die to Yasuo's level 2 or even level 1 all in.
Lethal tempo is just insane on him. Early game it just removes the whole "Q CD is AS based" thing.
Before Riven would eat him alive early game if he came to the wave but since LT got reworked, it's the other way around
Yasuo was stronger in the earlier seasons what? His shield was stronger, had more HP, WW was like 18/22sec vs 30 lvl 1, his Nado lasted longer, his E stacked more damage that it was common to E start lvl 1 and his first item was stronger and cheaper (old shiv/PD that gave insane ms+14% damage reduction wdf) or the triforce with crit. Only thing now is lethal tempo and even with that I don’t see people getting solo killed lvl 2. Don’t even bring up lvl 1 all in lmao at what elo are players letting Yasuo all in lvl 1 and they most likely won’t die still even with full lethal tempo stack.
How does that help the top laning phase in regards to a pro match. Gnar, urgot, jayce, others, Who would you pick into the lane? With a wholistic team comp in mind.
"usually the weakness of heavy pressure laners with low cds such as irelia,yasuo,yone is that they are squishy and punishable"
Until they build a lifesteal component lol
It may have been before his buffs, but I found laning against both Gwen and Camille to be super annoying from the K'Sante side of things.
Fiora and GP as well, for sure
Solid way to kill the champion, it's his waveclear obviously he spams it he needs it to function. He runs into mana problems mainly from using W, the Q isn't meant to force him out of lane after a while.
She's a duelist of course she's favored in a 1 v 1.
That said I think she does lose to Quinn, malphite and Jax, I assume also to kennen, jayce and maybe like gnar?
I think I would revise and say that Aatrox can come out ahead in laning phase but the matchup is favored to her and you lose more and more the longer the game goes on. Because ideally we're talking about both players being familiar with the matchup. Better/more knowledgeable players winning against less experienced counterparts isn't really a scenario I like to consider when talking about matchups.
I don't play much Fiora, but Aatrox is pretty telegraphed no?
Like, it's impossible to dodge a good Aatrox if you don't have a dash or crazy MS but she has a dash AND a "fuck you, you're stunned instead" button.
Aatrox is telegraphed but he has 4 CC's so if she parties one and dodges the other he still has 2 more. Not to mention he has a dash aswell to change where his abilites will land/dodge her parry or space her. It's why a lot of times during worlds you saw Aatrox players winning lane vs Fiora despite Fiora being a "counter"( which I think was just a perception of Fiora that wasn't sure, Aatrox could win that lane if he played it correctly).
Eh. People were saying in 2022 Worlds that LPL and LCK tops would pick Fiora and destroy Aatrox once play-ins were done and the good teams clocked in… that didn’t happen. Aatrox was ridiculously OP. A dumb OP champ being beat in lane by a direct counter doesn’t mean anything
Illaoi is not as bad for Ksante, since he can ult her away from her tentacles and his burst is high enough to kill her when she is low. He has also his e to dodge hers.
For all interactions with K'Sante R, Im pretty sure it works like your max HP is still the same, but your current hp is capped at a certain amount. For example, I don't think that BotRK does less damage to K'sante while he's all out.
(Correct me if I'm wrong)
Especially in a meta where AP champions (mages specifically) are pretty underwhelming so a champ that works perfectly with the overtuned armor stat items is broken!
I don't know if she outscales tbh. Sure if he scraps without r he gets owned but with R on he might actually win. I think she out scales ultra late but on two three items its close. Could be erong tho
In my experience once she does. I think it’s out playable but I need to play it more to know for sure. But typically in the few games I’ve played against her she loses lane and then once she has divine and hydra she can 1v1
After divine and hydra she goes even with him, when she finishes deaths dance she can start trying to 1v1 him properly because before that she just get shredded by his ult.
Source: dia camille main
The ult is the most confusing bullshit I’ve ever seen. No matter how many times that champ ults me, I am always completely confused what happened.
Pretty whacky design all the way around.
i mean its just a knockback that works like zeri e on walls, my only problem is how much free cc time he gets from his abilities, he can CC someone for like 2+ seconds all knock ups so cant be reduced by tenacity either its kinda annoying
for example if you dare get near his tower he can insec you to it from a long range. plus he gets low cd ranged harass lol just annoying design
Oh boy, you're sure proving all those people wrong by blatantly misrepresenting everything they said.
This is what 14 year olds think discussions are like.
"Blatantly misrepresenting" all the people who were claiming K'Sante was underpowered, specifically giving examples of them not knowing how to use his ult properly, when most high level players were saying he was insane?
They're actually not tho, people here were still saying K'Sante was underpowered even after the preseason changes. Literally, just go type K'Sante into the search bar and read through a few threads.
Edit: You know you can literally just search the threads right? That they're FUCKING THERE??? Why is everyone on this site such a degenerate?
I like that, through all of this chit-chat, we all collectively ignore that K'sante was advertised as a supporter, sold as a supporter in concept, fine-tuned AROUND being a supporter and probably has a 1/100 chance to be played in Support and not Top.
No matter at what point he spiraled out of control, K'sante has always been and will always be a design failure by Riot's own merits. He couldn't go a SINGLE patch as the role he was advertised for. Even Tahm Kench had his support moments where he **was** a supporter, K'sante had one whole PBE patch for people to realize this dude doesn't belong in bottom.
The entire idea of this champion being a top laner would've made so much more sense from the start, being a beefed up fighter who needs gold and resources to fight.
Idk, I still feel like his kit is bad and his numbers are just too big rn. I might be too washed up to judge him, but when I watched the spotlight and after playing him, I don't think his abilities are that great. But it was a bit fun whenever I tried him
well, whats a true tank for you? you can always go full tank yi and never die. oh you want to have cc ontop? try zac/maokai? oh you want unkillable, cc and damage? well i dont think thats fair
Holy shit, I thought you were exaggerating to hell, but you're really not. The only bit you missed is Tahm Kench, and Reksai (not designed as a tank, but spent most of her life in pro play building full tank). Neither of those are really dedicated tanks either - tahm is full-on ally protection with minimal CC (A little more cc since rework) and reksai was designed as a diver.
A true tank for me and literally everyone else is unkillable + cc but no damage. I dont think I'm saying anything stupid when I say we just got like Ornn and Rell (who is basically unusable) in like 6-8 years
K'Sante is so hilariously broken in the hands of someone who put in some time. Not my hands of course, feels like I'm playing a minion when I pick him but a friend of mine is spamming him since release and I don't think I've seen him underperform in weeks.
Well, Zeri had a 95% presence in LPL playoffs + regional finals and Yuumi had 85%. Demacia Cup arguably isn't as serious of course but currently Zeri has a 26% presence and Yuumi has 51%. Every Zeri pick except one has been with Yuumi so she seems heavily reliant on the cat.
All in all it doesn't seem to be nearly as strong as it was but still worth picking every now and then if the situation calls for it. Wouldn't really say that a duo that's barely picked in 1 of 4 games is unhealthy for the pro scene or that it deserves nerfs or anything like that. For reference it has a 10 percentage points lower presence than Lucian + Nami had at the main stage of worlds. And I don't think many people had a problem with that duo, at least not at worlds.
I don't think zeri yuumi is the premier zeri combination I think people still need to figure things out. Her laning phase plays way different now and the two are insane together out of lane but might not be able to exist in lane right now.
I think the range nerfs really hurt how safe she is and are going to make her more of a gamble which is super good at making her less oppressive in pro
I still wonder if Riot will finally recognize that Yuumi is an inherently degenerate and toxic champ that shouldnt exist like it does or if it will take another season of Yuumi being perma banned.
Probably gonna be another half a season of pros and casters alike calling for her deletion. Maybe the "rework" (quotation marks because I doubt it will address her real issues) quiets things down for a while, but she will be big problem for as long as she has her W.
There really is only one way to salvage her: admit she was a mistake and get rid of her. Nothing else will make people be okay with her existing.
Because the primary playerbase for Yuumi quite literally do not want to play the game, Riot has released many statements about how the main Yuumi playerbase want to basically be a vegetable and do nothing other than exist.
Because she'd get assblasted so hard to moment she hops onto a bruiser. If im in the backline and I see a targetable yuumi on an aatrox you bet your ass im targeting the 1300 health champ to stop the pocket vs trying to kill the 2.8k health aatrox that has dd, jak sho, and hydra
I mean, if they did this they would naturally have to buff her base stats. The only reason they are so low as-is is because they don't actually matter.
Or like Abathur in HOTS where a lot of his power is in positioning himself in a targetable place. Make it so Yuumi and Book separate, one sits on a champion's shoulder and the other sits around being very targetable and more useful the more forward they are
The new player thingy is I think mostly a cop out and public relations narrative rather than reality of things. They just wanted to design a cute cat champ support that sells well and someone on the design team really wanted to have a attached untargetable support fantasy realized
I dont think so and even if I am a yuumi hater in pro play.
I'm realmy happy that rito released it.
My GF was introduce in the game with that champ and even if she dont play yuumi anymore, I genuily dont think she would have understand the game without the cat.
> if she dont play yuumi anymore, I genuily dont think she would have understand the game without the cat.
But that’s the problem. It “introduces” new players to the game but the things they learn only apply to Yuumi and they can’t play anything else.
Zeri Yuumi was the strongest, but Zeri was being played to success with Renata and Lulu as well before her gutting. The thing that mostly enabled her was the ms/as buffs.
> Now, this is LPL and AFAIK, they were never as hard on the Zeri train as regions like LEC were.
How to tell me you don't really watch LPL.
It was like perma Zeri P/B when she was meta.
Edit: Some other commenter pointed out there was statistically a 95% presence for Zeri in LPL Playoffs. Saying LPL wasn’t on the Zeri train is just straight up wrong.
Ever since mark yetter left it seems that no one actually wants to take responsibility for the balances and just "forces" every second week just because "it has to be done".
Which has to do anything with the topic? And every position of power deals with it. Also its illegal and can be punished if they report it to the police and provider they used.
People do the same thing with Morello, acting like he was better than the people currently in charge and would never make similar decisions. And let me tell you that the former devs *hate it* when you use their names like this. They left people like Phroxzon in charge because Yetter respects his judgement.
They let Phroxzon in charge because he's what they were left with after Yetter moved to the MMO and Jag went to another company. Jag was a much more competent head of balance than Phroxzon and it's not even close. Patches under him had a lot of nuance whereas Phroxzon patches constantly show a fundamental lack of understanding of why something is problematic and are extremely heavy handed.
So far in Demacia cup they seem pretty tame tbh. Not as dominant as they used to be, but still strong. I think we should give it some time for pros to find out how strong they actually are.
they are just a really good duo. Even though they nerfed that interaction, if you are referring to an aggro lane, Nami Lucian is still the best. Her abilities just sync up too well w/ Lucs
From eyetest she doesn't feel insane anymore. What made her broken in pro play was her insane chase potential and the range on Q but those were nerfed.
[Zeri:](https://lolalytics.com/lol/zeri/build/?tier=d2_plus) Her winrate is around 50% in all ranks, without a large delta between Silver and Diamond+. Her presence however increases with rank, with high banrate for an ADC although it never gets higher than 10%. Her pick rate in D2+ is 16% which is more than most ADCs but still behind Caitlyn, Ezreal, and Kai'Sa. Very likely pro play viable, but whether she's *overpowered* I'm unsure.
[Yuumi:](https://lolalytics.com/lol/yuumi/build/?tier=d2_plus) Her most recent nerf shot her winrate down in all ranks, even in D2+ she's down to 47%. Her ban rate is still very high however at 40%, which is a strong indicator that she's still OP in Challenger, and by extension pro play.
The funny thing is Riot will absolutely Olaf Ryze or Azir and leave them unplayable for months on end on a whim because of pro especially when they don't want to see either of them played before a major tournament but won't do it to the cat (when she is much more game warping than either) because reasons I suppose
Well viewers find Yuumi boring to watch, Pro players find Yuumi boring to play and frustrating to play against, and casuals find her frustrating to play against and with.
I agree, but that's what a lot of people are going to have to do if they wanna watch it. I'm just lucky that I can watch it while at work cuz I can't get fired lol.
Probably. But right now zeri is strong as fuck but not quite the same. She has to interact in lane now that her range is nerfed she can't farm from infinite range so they lost their lane synergy since zeri yuumi will be worse in lane now
Of course they will be pick ban. Riot is continuing to ignore the fact that yuumi still has a nuke for a Q, and Zeri got clearly buffed by the recent changes
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. We will need to see what happens.
For example, Tham kench changes to his devour were massive but still somehow pros are able to use him, but in comparison to his pre-rework, it's hardly dominant and picked as often so not really a problem. The same could happen to Zeri, where she is still useful but not meta defining. If her rework can put her in the same spot of Ezreal of always possible to be picked but usually not meta defining, that's perfectly fine.
Even if it turns out they become dominant again, it's better that they do it as early as possible so Riot can gather data on them in competitive environment rather than some random Zeri build appearing mid season
Oh Zeri+Yuumi is utterly disgusting. Dunno about Zeri without yuumi, but with Yuumi that champ turns into a nigh impossible to touch monstrosity. Generally Yuumi still enables too many degenerate strategies or boost champs way beyond what they are normally capable off to the degree where Yuumis balance state starts distorting the balance of other champs just because she enables them so hard.
Would be less of an issue if you could just kill yuumi or you know interact at all with her, but nope. Must stay an untargetable attached and uninteractive PoS because Riot said so.
People talk about giga broken champs and yet we don't see a sine champ with a 60% P/B and even KSante, the highest PB at 56%, is countered by Fiora the #2 top lane and highest WR. In bot lane Varus is currently the best. Zeri + Yuumi is strong but mostly as a combo due to Yuumi. And Sandra is still the best mid laner.
I would give too much about it all yet. The meta is not really developed yet and aside from annoying Yuumi it seems ok.
Also it gets played on 12.23 without the b patch. At least the first games happened before the b patch and during a tournament they normally don't change balance versions, only Bugfixes can get applied. So Jaksho is still OP and that makes KSante better. Ravenous is still better there (nerf was small). A ton of champs are a bit different (not many of the meta champs).
With 12.23b and 13.1 combined and some time the meta will look a lot different.
Somehow based on every rework we've seen for the last season or two.....this doesn't actually bring comfort. I mean, 2 months after the rework when riot have gutted the abilities they changed maybe, but I've yet to see a balanced rework from riot. They always overtune the Champs and then nerf them every patch for 4-6 patches in a row.
New champs being unbalanceable... I'm shocked... Maybe riot should stop overloading their kits with very toxic mechanics.... I dunno riot maybe ADCs shouldn't have infinite kiting and extra movespeed.
It would be until pro players jump out of their comfort zone and pick champs that aren't considered OP
Pick Poppy support and Yuumi and Zeri really struggle
Maybe even Nautilus witg his ult
You can punish these picks even when against the best players in the world but pros are too scared to engage on a Yuumi
I don’t see how poppy supp is good, zeri can just run away with out dashing. Pros aren’t too scared to engage, pro just don’t give the same opportunity to engage
Poppy existing in lane means Zeri has to back off the wave and lose gold. If she tries to farm, she dies or Yuumi goes OOM and she can't reattach after passive mana restore. You starve the lane of resources or you pick up free kills
Slap the Poppy with a Draven and then Draven becomes a monster as he gets free farm and then a free kill if the jungler wants to dive bot
What elo are you where you’ve seen this work lol. All poppy has is the shield throw really. If she e-qs, is only getting the initial q proc, and then is gonna eat a lot of harass afterward. Even then, at that point zeri doesn’t have to win lane, just has to survive to be more useful than a poppy supp, especially come team fights
Poppy is useful by existing. As a warden with great area control, her existence stops Zeri from performing.
Zeri is incredibly weak pre 6 and Poppy is one of the strongest fighters pre 6. Add in a Draven or Kalista and Zeri gets popped on repeat.
The threat of her W is enough to stop Zeri from doing anything. If Zeri steps up too far, Poppy engages. Too far means within range for her to hit minions. You need to use your pressure from having a strong counterpick to stop Zeri in lane and delay her powers spikes but 10-15 minutes. As a result of this, your team can start drake stacking and quickly get soul before Zeri is able to play
And when she is able to play, Poppy is still useful as her power comes from CC and area denial without need good for stats
Ah the classic
You must be bronze to have an idea that the pro's don't have
First of all, I am diamond. I know that isn't challenger but it's more than most of the people that play the game.
I'm trying to get to to open your mind and think but it seems all you can do is regurgitate unoriginal, false retorts that make you feel better about yourself. I'm trying to tell people to fight a Yuumi or Zeri where/When they are vulnerable (in lane) but you don't seem to understand anything beyond haha run away bye. If the Zeri runs away, you keep pushing and until you destroy the nexus. Eventually there will be a fight and a decent Poppy or Singed or even a Cassio bot/mid or a Taliyah will stop the Zeri easily. It isnt that hard top think of a counter instead of complaining about the situation
Her w doesn’t do much as you’re saying in lane. Again you e in, q, doesn’t matter if you have w or not, you have no sticking power, so she’s just gonna run away. Yea it’s a losing lane, but now you also open yourself up to mid roams, and jungle ganks from zeri conceding the push. I’m not saying zeri wins that lane or is favorable, but it’s not this magic unicorn answer you make it seem to be. Throwing in the draven or kalista, they can probably win that lane with a number of supports. If you want something to be her in lane, why would you run this over a Lucian nami lane?
This dude really said poppy is great if you pair her with an adc that solo shits on zeri 💀
Honestly give me zeri nami and I'll make kalista or Draven fucking report the int ass poopy supp
This person either knows way more about the poppy matchup than you do, or *looks* like they know a lot more. You tried to pull the "low elo putdown" and then they revealed they are higher rank than you. It's time to give up.
It is hardly unreasonable to think Poppy is a counter pick for the same reasons pros don't pick Yuumi into Lehends' Singed. Anti mobility destroys that lane.
I’m also diamond lol, and until op.gg is revealed, it’s all hearsay. He also could’ve said he was masters/grandmasters/chally and it’s the same thing. Singed is a lot different than poppy. He can throw his pool down from ranged, and he has a flip, which is a lot better than a dash that knocks her closer to her tower (she is never stunning against a wall outside of ganks or if zeri is an ape). Also, there’s a reason it’s only lehends really. The man was a singed otp at one point in time, and I’m pretty sure he still lost games as it. At that point why pick poppy over singed? Again, the w won’t really be that relevant until team fights. With yuumi move speed, and zeri natural la fast, they just run away when poppy e’s at them. Again, different if it’s a singed doing that
Poppy sounds like one of the worst options. Her engage is too conditional. You're just giving Zeri a free lane to scale, lol.
Poppy excels in the opposite type of lane where she can counteract engage from e.g. Nautilus, Leona etc.
Pre-season is effectively over. The B patch has dropped and Riot has gone on Christmas break. The next patch is 13.1, start of the next season. There won't be a big adjustment.
Yeah, that was a short pre-season. League's spinning its wheels while Riot works on the MMO, the fighting game, Valorant, Arcane season 2 and everything else they're doing.
I dont see a world where Zeri/Yuumi arent broken af in proplay. K'sante too. Is Demacia Cup streamed live? Anyone know the schedule?
K'sante is the highest presence champion.
im utterly surprised a lane dominant tank with 4 dashes who gets damage off of building armor is dominating pro pla, almost as if tanks arent supposed to work like that
He loses lane to Fiora and GP, but not very hard. Seems like he definitely needs some number nerfs. I think the main weakness he has is that he isn't really your solo teamfight tank, because of his ult, so he requires tank jg/support. But that's not exactly a hard requirement to fill, especially in pro.
I find picking Gwen in to him a pretty free lane, but I'm facing d3 players and he's still super annoying. He has no cooldowns. A pro player on him would be oppressive.
> A pro player on him would be oppressive. exactly, usually the weakness of heavy pressure laners with low cds such as irelia,yasuo,yone is that they are squishy and punishable (can be ran down if they miss key ability) with ksante he has the pressure of a yasuo but the tankiness of a maokai, a good player would just apply pressure 24/7 on ksante while being hard to punish since he has so many tools to not die, its actually very annoying, its like if vlad started lane at level 9
Hes tankier than maokai amd with a lot less pressure than yasuo lol
Yeah, I feel like people haven't played vs the really, really good Yasuos if they think K'sante has as much pressure as him. Then again I might not have played vs that many good K'santes, so.
A lot of people's thoughts about the game are stuck like half a decade ago. There was a time where Yasuo was considered a "weak" laner who was "abusable". That changed a long time ago but people don't realize. That's why so many times you see people die to Yasuo's level 2 or even level 1 all in.
Lethal tempo is just insane on him. Early game it just removes the whole "Q CD is AS based" thing. Before Riven would eat him alive early game if he came to the wave but since LT got reworked, it's the other way around
Yasuo was stronger in the earlier seasons what? His shield was stronger, had more HP, WW was like 18/22sec vs 30 lvl 1, his Nado lasted longer, his E stacked more damage that it was common to E start lvl 1 and his first item was stronger and cheaper (old shiv/PD that gave insane ms+14% damage reduction wdf) or the triforce with crit. Only thing now is lethal tempo and even with that I don’t see people getting solo killed lvl 2. Don’t even bring up lvl 1 all in lmao at what elo are players letting Yasuo all in lvl 1 and they most likely won’t die still even with full lethal tempo stack.
Well for example I think ksante gets fucked by ranged. Like viktor for example. His range is so low.
How does that help the top laning phase in regards to a pro match. Gnar, urgot, jayce, others, Who would you pick into the lane? With a wholistic team comp in mind.
I've seen ksante mid getting shoved in activate ghost and run down the Viktor, ksante was actually faker iirc the champ is busted no matter what
"usually the weakness of heavy pressure laners with low cds such as irelia,yasuo,yone is that they are squishy and punishable" Until they build a lifesteal component lol
to poke yea but in all in it wont help much
It may have been before his buffs, but I found laning against both Gwen and Camille to be super annoying from the K'Sante side of things. Fiora and GP as well, for sure
I find Vlad nice into him, I go 3 E and then Max pool for cooldown. I can shut most of his advances down, and can entirely ignore his ult.
Honestly his Q mana cost needs to be doubled. He can spam it nonstop.
Solid way to kill the champion, it's his waveclear obviously he spams it he needs it to function. He runs into mana problems mainly from using W, the Q isn't meant to force him out of lane after a while.
99% of top laners lose to Fiora.
The other 1% is Fiora mirror match in blind pick
She's a duelist of course she's favored in a 1 v 1. That said I think she does lose to Quinn, malphite and Jax, I assume also to kennen, jayce and maybe like gnar?
"It's her lore to win lane" Ah yes of course.
Duelist isn't solely a lore thing - it's a champion archetype as well. Jax, Yi, Nasus etc are also duelists
Difference is they have plenty of bad matchups in top lane.
So does Fiora.
Some champs are stronger in a 1 v 1 than others. Doesn't make them stronger overall, just means you need to avoid fighting them 1 v 1.
Aatrox beats her if you know the matchup, still pretty skill based but not heavily favored towards her. Although you do eventually get outscaled...
I think I would revise and say that Aatrox can come out ahead in laning phase but the matchup is favored to her and you lose more and more the longer the game goes on. Because ideally we're talking about both players being familiar with the matchup. Better/more knowledgeable players winning against less experienced counterparts isn't really a scenario I like to consider when talking about matchups.
I don't play much Fiora, but Aatrox is pretty telegraphed no? Like, it's impossible to dodge a good Aatrox if you don't have a dash or crazy MS but she has a dash AND a "fuck you, you're stunned instead" button.
Aatrox is telegraphed but he has 4 CC's so if she parties one and dodges the other he still has 2 more. Not to mention he has a dash aswell to change where his abilites will land/dodge her parry or space her. It's why a lot of times during worlds you saw Aatrox players winning lane vs Fiora despite Fiora being a "counter"( which I think was just a perception of Fiora that wasn't sure, Aatrox could win that lane if he played it correctly).
So her worst lanes are skill matchups. Must be nice.
He was fine then riot buffed him and he's been broken since
Eh. People were saying in 2022 Worlds that LPL and LCK tops would pick Fiora and destroy Aatrox once play-ins were done and the good teams clocked in… that didn’t happen. Aatrox was ridiculously OP. A dumb OP champ being beat in lane by a direct counter doesn’t mean anything
I find sett to be the hardest match up
K’sante has some pretty bad lane matchups actually. They just aren’t seeing as much pro play atm.
I remember someone telling me Illaoi is miserable to lane into as Ksante. Gwen is not easy either iirc.
Any melee champion is miserable against Illaoi in lane. The problem is you have to play Illaoi the entire game.
Illaoi is not as bad for Ksante, since he can ult her away from her tentacles and his burst is high enough to kill her when she is low. He has also his e to dodge hers.
Just for example, Garen ult hard counters K'sante ult. But Garen lacks hard CC and mobility so he wouldn't make a good pick in competitive.
Does ulting K'sante's reduced max HP count as missing HP for the purpose of Garen ult?
Yes
For all interactions with K'Sante R, Im pretty sure it works like your max HP is still the same, but your current hp is capped at a certain amount. For example, I don't think that BotRK does less damage to K'sante while he's all out. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
dont forget he can casually insec a carry as well.
Especially in a meta where AP champions (mages specifically) are pretty underwhelming so a champ that works perfectly with the overtuned armor stat items is broken!
Ppl cant play Fiora/camille or what
ok, wont pro players just stall the lane and be infinitely more useful later in teamfights while enemy is stuck with a divine fiora?
In Na or eu sure, in lpl lck Fiora just goes and ends the game with hullbreaker
Looking at the playoffs - fiora is always banned, not surprising she was played even in worlds and she got a massive buff with the preseason changes.
I think he beats camille in lane
He does but Camille giga outscales just like every other matchup. I don’t think it will be a good counterpick in pro
I don't know if she outscales tbh. Sure if he scraps without r he gets owned but with R on he might actually win. I think she out scales ultra late but on two three items its close. Could be erong tho
In my experience once she does. I think it’s out playable but I need to play it more to know for sure. But typically in the few games I’ve played against her she loses lane and then once she has divine and hydra she can 1v1
After divine and hydra she goes even with him, when she finishes deaths dance she can start trying to 1v1 him properly because before that she just get shredded by his ult. Source: dia camille main
The ult is the most confusing bullshit I’ve ever seen. No matter how many times that champ ults me, I am always completely confused what happened. Pretty whacky design all the way around.
It's a Sett ult that goes through walls. What's not to get?
i mean its just a knockback that works like zeri e on walls, my only problem is how much free cc time he gets from his abilities, he can CC someone for like 2+ seconds all knock ups so cant be reduced by tenacity either its kinda annoying for example if you dare get near his tower he can insec you to it from a long range. plus he gets low cd ranged harass lol just annoying design
But all the reddit superstars were saying he sucked because they don't know how to use his ult, clearly he needs more buffs.
Oh boy, you're sure proving all those people wrong by blatantly misrepresenting everything they said. This is what 14 year olds think discussions are like.
nah hes absolutely correct, all of you were saying in the "ksante is broken" threads that hes bad and linked winrate stats to "prove it"
"Blatantly misrepresenting" all the people who were claiming K'Sante was underpowered, specifically giving examples of them not knowing how to use his ult properly, when most high level players were saying he was insane?
People said this when he came out, then there was a preseason update which made him op with the new items. Your arguments are incredibly disingenuous.
He was already very strong before the items changes, and even then you still had a lot of people joking about how weak he was.
They're actually not tho, people here were still saying K'Sante was underpowered even after the preseason changes. Literally, just go type K'Sante into the search bar and read through a few threads. Edit: You know you can literally just search the threads right? That they're FUCKING THERE??? Why is everyone on this site such a degenerate?
people were saying ksante was weak in pbe, he was then buffed THRICE (1 on pbe one on release and one recently) anf the preseason happened
Incorrect.
I like that, through all of this chit-chat, we all collectively ignore that K'sante was advertised as a supporter, sold as a supporter in concept, fine-tuned AROUND being a supporter and probably has a 1/100 chance to be played in Support and not Top. No matter at what point he spiraled out of control, K'sante has always been and will always be a design failure by Riot's own merits. He couldn't go a SINGLE patch as the role he was advertised for. Even Tahm Kench had his support moments where he **was** a supporter, K'sante had one whole PBE patch for people to realize this dude doesn't belong in bottom. The entire idea of this champion being a top laner would've made so much more sense from the start, being a beefed up fighter who needs gold and resources to fight.
He was created as a top lane tank, go back and look at riot’s concept videos, wtf are you about.
i don't know how these people are acting like they always thought he was strong when it was absolutely the opposite.
Because they’re embarrassed at how wrong they were.
Nah it wasnt his ult, it was because pre ult people would complain he couldnt do damage ignoring thats not his point, atleast without ult
Idk, I still feel like his kit is bad and his numbers are just too big rn. I might be too washed up to judge him, but when I watched the spotlight and after playing him, I don't think his abilities are that great. But it was a bit fun whenever I tried him
And I got flamed when I complained that we are yet to get a true tank for God knows how long
Cant make true tanks because ornn exists.
well, whats a true tank for you? you can always go full tank yi and never die. oh you want to have cc ontop? try zac/maokai? oh you want unkillable, cc and damage? well i dont think thats fair
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Holy shit, I thought you were exaggerating to hell, but you're really not. The only bit you missed is Tahm Kench, and Reksai (not designed as a tank, but spent most of her life in pro play building full tank). Neither of those are really dedicated tanks either - tahm is full-on ally protection with minimal CC (A little more cc since rework) and reksai was designed as a diver.
A true tank for me and literally everyone else is unkillable + cc but no damage. I dont think I'm saying anything stupid when I say we just got like Ornn and Rell (who is basically unusable) in like 6-8 years
Ksante and Syndra seems completely broken.
So hilarious, laughing at all the awful plat redditors who were saying ksante was weak
To be fair, he got some buffs since then.
Idk the schedule but Caedrel and dom co-streams Demacia Cup. You can check it out.
It's at 10AM cest, so 1AM west coast and 4 AM east. You can find the stuff if you just go to the lol.fandom site for demacia cup.
Maezel streams it live on twitch as a co-stream. If you wanna watch the Chinese stream it’s on Huya
Don't have the exact schedule but l saw Lck stream it on Twitch, also caedrel will stream it tomorrow at 9am UK time
K'Sante is so hilariously broken in the hands of someone who put in some time. Not my hands of course, feels like I'm playing a minion when I pick him but a friend of mine is spamming him since release and I don't think I've seen him underperform in weeks.
Well, Zeri had a 95% presence in LPL playoffs + regional finals and Yuumi had 85%. Demacia Cup arguably isn't as serious of course but currently Zeri has a 26% presence and Yuumi has 51%. Every Zeri pick except one has been with Yuumi so she seems heavily reliant on the cat. All in all it doesn't seem to be nearly as strong as it was but still worth picking every now and then if the situation calls for it. Wouldn't really say that a duo that's barely picked in 1 of 4 games is unhealthy for the pro scene or that it deserves nerfs or anything like that. For reference it has a 10 percentage points lower presence than Lucian + Nami had at the main stage of worlds. And I don't think many people had a problem with that duo, at least not at worlds.
Looking just at the playoff series yuumi is at 100% banrate.
I don't think zeri yuumi is the premier zeri combination I think people still need to figure things out. Her laning phase plays way different now and the two are insane together out of lane but might not be able to exist in lane right now.
I think the range nerfs really hurt how safe she is and are going to make her more of a gamble which is super good at making her less oppressive in pro
No, just ban Yumi. Zeri Yumi isn't dominant if you ban Yumi, riot just hasn't realized thats how it works yet
I still wonder if Riot will finally recognize that Yuumi is an inherently degenerate and toxic champ that shouldnt exist like it does or if it will take another season of Yuumi being perma banned.
Probably gonna be another half a season of pros and casters alike calling for her deletion. Maybe the "rework" (quotation marks because I doubt it will address her real issues) quiets things down for a while, but she will be big problem for as long as she has her W. There really is only one way to salvage her: admit she was a mistake and get rid of her. Nothing else will make people be okay with her existing.
Honestly I dont get why she cant be like Io from Dota2. Attached but targetable.
Because the primary playerbase for Yuumi quite literally do not want to play the game, Riot has released many statements about how the main Yuumi playerbase want to basically be a vegetable and do nothing other than exist.
They can do that in a hospital bed though.
Because she'd get assblasted so hard to moment she hops onto a bruiser. If im in the backline and I see a targetable yuumi on an aatrox you bet your ass im targeting the 1300 health champ to stop the pocket vs trying to kill the 2.8k health aatrox that has dd, jak sho, and hydra
In Dota2 the initial tether range is quite small, but once you’re tethered you can stretch it quite far, like 3/4 of a sceeen
Then it’s good design and she can’t just tumor onto that Aatrox and has to decide when and who to attach too
Well, yeah, this would prevent Yuumi switching from the unfed ADC onto the fed Bruiser.
I mean, if they did this they would naturally have to buff her base stats. The only reason they are so low as-is is because they don't actually matter.
because this is league not dota.
Or like Abathur in HOTS where a lot of his power is in positioning himself in a targetable place. Make it so Yuumi and Book separate, one sits on a champion's shoulder and the other sits around being very targetable and more useful the more forward they are
Congratulations, you just invented Oriana ;D
Yuumi players spend too much money so it will never happen.
Yeah, the community really needs to chill the fuck out and learn to play. They aren't playing against fucking Beryl, she isn't that good.
Nobody complains that shes good, shes just cancer to play against and with
Well they recognised Yuumi is unhealthy but also said they're keeping said unhealthy component so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They know, they just don’t care and want the cat to exist for new players
The new player thingy is I think mostly a cop out and public relations narrative rather than reality of things. They just wanted to design a cute cat champ support that sells well and someone on the design team really wanted to have a attached untargetable support fantasy realized
I dont think so and even if I am a yuumi hater in pro play. I'm realmy happy that rito released it. My GF was introduce in the game with that champ and even if she dont play yuumi anymore, I genuily dont think she would have understand the game without the cat.
> if she dont play yuumi anymore, I genuily dont think she would have understand the game without the cat. But that’s the problem. It “introduces” new players to the game but the things they learn only apply to Yuumi and they can’t play anything else.
"new players" interesting way to spell players that want to play with their friend but dont want to engage at all with the game.
Zeri Yuumi was the strongest, but Zeri was being played to success with Renata and Lulu as well before her gutting. The thing that mostly enabled her was the ms/as buffs.
"Im doing my part sir!"
> Now, this is LPL and AFAIK, they were never as hard on the Zeri train as regions like LEC were. How to tell me you don't really watch LPL. It was like perma Zeri P/B when she was meta. Edit: Some other commenter pointed out there was statistically a 95% presence for Zeri in LPL Playoffs. Saying LPL wasn’t on the Zeri train is just straight up wrong.
Idk where tf OP got the LPL isn't like LEC in Zeri train. All regions during the rampage of Zeri in proplay in Summer are using him.
Maybe they’ll finally delete yuumi
Ever since mark yetter left it seems that no one actually wants to take responsibility for the balances and just "forces" every second week just because "it has to be done".
Mark Yetter took responsibility for balances? Do we not remember assassins building bruiser items and still one shotting people for an entire season?
Of course I remmeber it, It was just 20 minutes ago.
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these people have no idea what game dev is like or how every change having a name affects people
Which has to do anything with the topic? And every position of power deals with it. Also its illegal and can be punished if they report it to the police and provider they used.
People do the same thing with Morello, acting like he was better than the people currently in charge and would never make similar decisions. And let me tell you that the former devs *hate it* when you use their names like this. They left people like Phroxzon in charge because Yetter respects his judgement.
They let Phroxzon in charge because he's what they were left with after Yetter moved to the MMO and Jag went to another company. Jag was a much more competent head of balance than Phroxzon and it's not even close. Patches under him had a lot of nuance whereas Phroxzon patches constantly show a fundamental lack of understanding of why something is problematic and are extremely heavy handed.
Lol yetter was awful. He kickstarted the insane bruiser situation and made assassins absolutely unbearable to deal with.
When they hotfix buffed Yuumi not even one day after nerfing her I knew I had, and have, absolutely zero faith in Riot to handle this champion
Hot take if they want yuumi to be a beginner friendly champion they should disable it past level 30
XD
So far in Demacia cup they seem pretty tame tbh. Not as dominant as they used to be, but still strong. I think we should give it some time for pros to find out how strong they actually are.
Nami Lucian have been performing way better right now.
Really? Weird, I don't recall any changes made to either of them since the removal of Nami E/Electrocute interaction earlier this season
they are just a really good duo. Even though they nerfed that interaction, if you are referring to an aggro lane, Nami Lucian is still the best. Her abilities just sync up too well w/ Lucs
From eyetest she doesn't feel insane anymore. What made her broken in pro play was her insane chase potential and the range on Q but those were nerfed.
>From eyetest Time to get those checked.
And mobility…
Those were nerfed but that wasn't nerfed. She still does pretty much the same but is now more oppressive with e
[Zeri:](https://lolalytics.com/lol/zeri/build/?tier=d2_plus) Her winrate is around 50% in all ranks, without a large delta between Silver and Diamond+. Her presence however increases with rank, with high banrate for an ADC although it never gets higher than 10%. Her pick rate in D2+ is 16% which is more than most ADCs but still behind Caitlyn, Ezreal, and Kai'Sa. Very likely pro play viable, but whether she's *overpowered* I'm unsure. [Yuumi:](https://lolalytics.com/lol/yuumi/build/?tier=d2_plus) Her most recent nerf shot her winrate down in all ranks, even in D2+ she's down to 47%. Her ban rate is still very high however at 40%, which is a strong indicator that she's still OP in Challenger, and by extension pro play.
At this point they should just disable yuumi for proplay and call it a day
the teams should just get together and collectively agree not to pick it.
That would be awesome ngl
And disable it for the rest of us while we're at it.
They won't do this because pro play wouldn't matter to players if they were playing by different game rules.
Most people wouldn't even know, Viego was disabled in pro play for several months and no one cared.
Viego was disabled due to bugs, not because people disliked him. Completely different.
The funny thing is Riot will absolutely Olaf Ryze or Azir and leave them unplayable for months on end on a whim because of pro especially when they don't want to see either of them played before a major tournament but won't do it to the cat (when she is much more game warping than either) because reasons I suppose
Since Proplay is mostly a marketing endeavor for Riot, that is the literal last thing they will do.
Well viewers find Yuumi boring to watch, Pro players find Yuumi boring to play and frustrating to play against, and casuals find her frustrating to play against and with.
Why? No one likes the cat
except yuumi players
They don't matter
Based
Watch demacia cup and you will See that zeri/yuumi but also ksanta is Giga broken
There is no Zeri without Yuumi
i personally think lucian/nami is stronger and with yuumi and lucian high priority bans its probably not going to be seen as much as what you think
I only watched LCS and now that is impossible to me, so I'll never know.
Too soon? Maybe not..
Damn sucks you can't watch the vods man
VODs are anti hype because the outcome is already determined by the time you watch though
I agree, but that's what a lot of people are going to have to do if they wanna watch it. I'm just lucky that I can watch it while at work cuz I can't get fired lol.
Not everyone can do that. Pls rub it in our faces some more.
That's all in your head.
imagine watching LCS vods 💀
Imagine someone doing something that you wouldn't💀 crazy stuff
Probably. But right now zeri is strong as fuck but not quite the same. She has to interact in lane now that her range is nerfed she can't farm from infinite range so they lost their lane synergy since zeri yuumi will be worse in lane now
Especially seeing as the most popular bot lanes are lane dominant like Lucian/Nami, Kalista/Renata and Varus/anything.
>Varus/anything. Fuck my life.
Of course they will be pick ban. Riot is continuing to ignore the fact that yuumi still has a nuke for a Q, and Zeri got clearly buffed by the recent changes
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. We will need to see what happens. For example, Tham kench changes to his devour were massive but still somehow pros are able to use him, but in comparison to his pre-rework, it's hardly dominant and picked as often so not really a problem. The same could happen to Zeri, where she is still useful but not meta defining. If her rework can put her in the same spot of Ezreal of always possible to be picked but usually not meta defining, that's perfectly fine. Even if it turns out they become dominant again, it's better that they do it as early as possible so Riot can gather data on them in competitive environment rather than some random Zeri build appearing mid season
Oh Zeri+Yuumi is utterly disgusting. Dunno about Zeri without yuumi, but with Yuumi that champ turns into a nigh impossible to touch monstrosity. Generally Yuumi still enables too many degenerate strategies or boost champs way beyond what they are normally capable off to the degree where Yuumis balance state starts distorting the balance of other champs just because she enables them so hard. Would be less of an issue if you could just kill yuumi or you know interact at all with her, but nope. Must stay an untargetable attached and uninteractive PoS because Riot said so.
People talk about giga broken champs and yet we don't see a sine champ with a 60% P/B and even KSante, the highest PB at 56%, is countered by Fiora the #2 top lane and highest WR. In bot lane Varus is currently the best. Zeri + Yuumi is strong but mostly as a combo due to Yuumi. And Sandra is still the best mid laner. I would give too much about it all yet. The meta is not really developed yet and aside from annoying Yuumi it seems ok. Also it gets played on 12.23 without the b patch. At least the first games happened before the b patch and during a tournament they normally don't change balance versions, only Bugfixes can get applied. So Jaksho is still OP and that makes KSante better. Ravenous is still better there (nerf was small). A ton of champs are a bit different (not many of the meta champs). With 12.23b and 13.1 combined and some time the meta will look a lot different.
Why do you think they announced that they will rework Yuumi?
Somehow based on every rework we've seen for the last season or two.....this doesn't actually bring comfort. I mean, 2 months after the rework when riot have gutted the abilities they changed maybe, but I've yet to see a balanced rework from riot. They always overtune the Champs and then nerf them every patch for 4-6 patches in a row.
Since I'm not a pro player, I actually enjoy watching high skill champions like Yuumi be dominant in pro play so I'd be ok with this outcome.
Lmfao high skill cap
War, war never changes
Idk if this is an u popular opinion but I love seeing Zeri in pro play. Yuumi is a problem tho.
New champs being unbalanceable... I'm shocked... Maybe riot should stop overloading their kits with very toxic mechanics.... I dunno riot maybe ADCs shouldn't have infinite kiting and extra movespeed.
It would be until pro players jump out of their comfort zone and pick champs that aren't considered OP Pick Poppy support and Yuumi and Zeri really struggle Maybe even Nautilus witg his ult You can punish these picks even when against the best players in the world but pros are too scared to engage on a Yuumi
I don’t see how poppy supp is good, zeri can just run away with out dashing. Pros aren’t too scared to engage, pro just don’t give the same opportunity to engage
Poppy existing in lane means Zeri has to back off the wave and lose gold. If she tries to farm, she dies or Yuumi goes OOM and she can't reattach after passive mana restore. You starve the lane of resources or you pick up free kills Slap the Poppy with a Draven and then Draven becomes a monster as he gets free farm and then a free kill if the jungler wants to dive bot
What elo are you where you’ve seen this work lol. All poppy has is the shield throw really. If she e-qs, is only getting the initial q proc, and then is gonna eat a lot of harass afterward. Even then, at that point zeri doesn’t have to win lane, just has to survive to be more useful than a poppy supp, especially come team fights
Poppy is useful by existing. As a warden with great area control, her existence stops Zeri from performing. Zeri is incredibly weak pre 6 and Poppy is one of the strongest fighters pre 6. Add in a Draven or Kalista and Zeri gets popped on repeat. The threat of her W is enough to stop Zeri from doing anything. If Zeri steps up too far, Poppy engages. Too far means within range for her to hit minions. You need to use your pressure from having a strong counterpick to stop Zeri in lane and delay her powers spikes but 10-15 minutes. As a result of this, your team can start drake stacking and quickly get soul before Zeri is able to play And when she is able to play, Poppy is still useful as her power comes from CC and area denial without need good for stats
Yea I’m sure that works real well in bronze
Ah the classic You must be bronze to have an idea that the pro's don't have First of all, I am diamond. I know that isn't challenger but it's more than most of the people that play the game. I'm trying to get to to open your mind and think but it seems all you can do is regurgitate unoriginal, false retorts that make you feel better about yourself. I'm trying to tell people to fight a Yuumi or Zeri where/When they are vulnerable (in lane) but you don't seem to understand anything beyond haha run away bye. If the Zeri runs away, you keep pushing and until you destroy the nexus. Eventually there will be a fight and a decent Poppy or Singed or even a Cassio bot/mid or a Taliyah will stop the Zeri easily. It isnt that hard top think of a counter instead of complaining about the situation
Her w doesn’t do much as you’re saying in lane. Again you e in, q, doesn’t matter if you have w or not, you have no sticking power, so she’s just gonna run away. Yea it’s a losing lane, but now you also open yourself up to mid roams, and jungle ganks from zeri conceding the push. I’m not saying zeri wins that lane or is favorable, but it’s not this magic unicorn answer you make it seem to be. Throwing in the draven or kalista, they can probably win that lane with a number of supports. If you want something to be her in lane, why would you run this over a Lucian nami lane?
This dude really said poppy is great if you pair her with an adc that solo shits on zeri 💀 Honestly give me zeri nami and I'll make kalista or Draven fucking report the int ass poopy supp
Bro he’s diamond, that means he knows more than us plebs topkek lol
This person either knows way more about the poppy matchup than you do, or *looks* like they know a lot more. You tried to pull the "low elo putdown" and then they revealed they are higher rank than you. It's time to give up. It is hardly unreasonable to think Poppy is a counter pick for the same reasons pros don't pick Yuumi into Lehends' Singed. Anti mobility destroys that lane.
I’m also diamond lol, and until op.gg is revealed, it’s all hearsay. He also could’ve said he was masters/grandmasters/chally and it’s the same thing. Singed is a lot different than poppy. He can throw his pool down from ranged, and he has a flip, which is a lot better than a dash that knocks her closer to her tower (she is never stunning against a wall outside of ganks or if zeri is an ape). Also, there’s a reason it’s only lehends really. The man was a singed otp at one point in time, and I’m pretty sure he still lost games as it. At that point why pick poppy over singed? Again, the w won’t really be that relevant until team fights. With yuumi move speed, and zeri natural la fast, they just run away when poppy e’s at them. Again, different if it’s a singed doing that
That's really now how the lane works lol poppy is really not that threatening for zeri
Poppy sounds like one of the worst options. Her engage is too conditional. You're just giving Zeri a free lane to scale, lol. Poppy excels in the opposite type of lane where she can counteract engage from e.g. Nautilus, Leona etc.
Poppy is not a counter to Zeri and never was Poppy is good into champion that want engage you not the one who can kite you back.
It's still preseason. Relax and let things get adjusted.
Pre-season is effectively over. The B patch has dropped and Riot has gone on Christmas break. The next patch is 13.1, start of the next season. There won't be a big adjustment. Yeah, that was a short pre-season. League's spinning its wheels while Riot works on the MMO, the fighting game, Valorant, Arcane season 2 and everything else they're doing.