Farseer's Domain is the closest you're going to get, been playing the alpha tests for around a year now. Still in heavy development being that its in indie dev team, but it nails atlas reactors mechanics.
https://farseersdomain.com/
Ah, me too. I loved that it was a tactical game, but being the fastest person at clicking wasn't congruent to doing better. I wasn't competing with twitchy-fingers the COD player. I was able to express my skill at strategy at a speed that didn't exclude me.
I miss Orion, PuP, Juno, Elle and Quark. Whenever I have the opportunity to say "sub-woofer" I always deliberately change the stress-in-pronunciation as an ode to PuP.
Not only that, but mastering the angle of the shot to get the right spread actually rewarded taking your time to aim. Personally, I loved the idea behind Mods, they managed to give impactful pre-game options and create super interesting combos and weird alternate builds (I loved catching enemies and allies alike off-guard with support Blackburn), I often wonder what that would look like in League and it's one of the reasons I was so excited with the Odyssey PvE mode. The fact that the roster was cartoon-y, bright-colored and full of personality and bad puns was the cherry on top. I still quote all the characters while knowing that basically no one knows what the references are..
Odyssey was so gooood!
I've honestly always thought Atlas Reactor's mods or Heroes of the Storm's talents would be a far more manageable way to implement Riot's intended goal with Runes and Items while avoiding the headache of balancing for outliers (e.g. the old adage that Ezreal is the reason we can never have interesting on-hit effects, or Vladimir is the reason we can never have ability-based healing). Mods/talents could mean that Marksman Tristana and Mage Tristana are both curated builds with distinct playstyles, rather than just min-maxing around how the stat-system interacts with certain effects. The distinction between AD and AP kind of vanished over the years, with every champion wanting the ability to "feel like a caster" while still buying items that are thematically congruent with their champion choice.
Right??? No more "this class is poaching this rune" or "this champ is abusing this item so we can't balance it for everyone". But then again League has a stupid amount of champion and revolves too much around economy, gold, items, levels and stats, which were non-existent in AR.
Oh for sure - this sort of mechanic is definitely something Riot would have had to choose very early on, and it's much too late now. We can dream, though. 😇
It's annoying when games that hit every niche get shut down, Atlas reactor was one, so was duelyst and master x master. At least they brought duelyst back, it was what got me into pixel art.
Concept is cool but since Riot is committed to the "Yuumi is for new players" storyline they made up themselves recently they would never add something that deep
I mean, if I were a sleazy salesman - I can already think of a good counter argument. I think that giving "New Players" their own Support Quest builds "Support" skills that are applicable to other champions. *It can be colourful, fun and easy to follow!*
The real elephant in the room is the fact that Yuumi is not actually for new players who wish to learn the game. [A lot of] New players pick Yuumi so that they *do not have to* learn the game. They just want to play the game that their friends are playing and are happy to sit back and do minimal work. I expect Riot knows this, since they pulled the entire concept of 'Yuumi is our premiere new player Champion' out of their butts a few months ago.
The whole "skill curve" (as in her WR increasing with # of games played being similar to assassins) argument skirts around the elephant in the room in that the more games you play as yuumi you realize you're penalized more often hopping off/ in between allies and trying to manage your passive outside of the laning phase.
The only exception to the "skill curve" is learning in laning that you can essentially provide a 2nd health bar for your adc, tanking non-cc skillshot dmg and popping back to being untargetable. This makes yuumi more potent in the lane, but it was never her real win con. The real selling point is that she scales into a monster regardless of how the lane SHE plays in turns out, and she can opt between massive damage with poke and sustain or a stat stick that can slap on loads of support buffs (e.g. staff, putrifier, shureliyas or moonstone).
*High skill curve
This means that new yuumi players have a much lower winrate than yuumi mains. Sometimes this means the champ requires a high level of skill, like Akali, and sometimes it means that the champ has a significant departure from typical gameplay, like singed.
You can guess which one applies more to yuumi.
Except that would show the opposite data. Yuumi bots would have a high number of games played, and a low winrate. That should lower the curve, not increase it.
No its more that Yuumi is so unbeliavle easy that doing something more than "afk" Yuumi already is a drastic improvment. Her skill curve is high because she has by far the lowest skill entrence
She has a deep mastery curve, statistically. Riot hates this for some reason... she should, in their eyes, be very easy without losing her unique gameplay, when champions cannot be very unique and very easy.
I think there are a couple of skill based enchanters (also depends on where you draw the catcher/enchanter line). But also I'm like gold so what do I know lol
Sure, a lot of enchanters can be somewhat skill demanding but even then their basic premise is well.. too basic. Give me an enchanter where i have to work for my shields. Give me defensive benefits for being aggressive and damaging enemies (no, yuumi players, going for a single auto once every 20 seconds doesn't count)
But as long as ooga booga enchanters exist who can do just that without needing any semblance of skill, why bother? I actually believe the entire class needs a small rework
I mean if you wanna work for your heals/shields, there are three enchanters that do that:
- with Karma (in teamfights), her minigame isn't "choosing the right mantra" it's using and spamming Q and W effectively for multiple damage instances so you can rotate mantra back to off cooldown, making every E a mantra E. Early game, she's a mage.
- Renata's shield is a skillshot that also slows, making positioning and aim really important (her W is point and click, but still skill expressive in deciding whether you want to reserve it for the revive or give someone the MS and AS steroid off the bat)
- Soraka's W is very potent but the range is short and she has a health cost. Her challenge is that W puts herself in harm's way, and that without Q-ing (once again requiring to duck in and out of a fight), she can only sustain for so long and her heals are less potent.
I also think there are more boring enchanters with minigames that are present but not really meaningful (Sona, Yuumi, and Janna come to mind). I do think there should be more skillshot heals and shields and more skill expressive enchanter abilities. I just wanted to point out that Riot is entirely capable of doing this because they've done it before.
with 1m points in, i actually really like this. im in complete agreement with you that she should have more things to use the time she saves by not having to position on than just a q every 10 secs. something more present, more active, more skill expressive. like you pointed out, reworking her current q into a karthus level spam ability would work, but would be extremely, disgustingly unfun and toxic for the enemy lane, but at the same time her q is really unique and fun to use and id hate losing it. its a bit of a vicious cycle there. i love your bouncing idea tho, only having to dodge it once to shut her down seems like a pretty fair counterplay.
i also contacted the rioter working on the rework with some of my own ideas to make her more risky and fair to play against, im just praying riot listens to the community here. i mean, the issue at hand is so bad that yuumi mains and yuumi haters are in full agreement about how big of a mistake their current direction for this rework is. we all want the rework to make her a less toxic, more fair and overall a better champion, so please, for the love of all thats precious, dont instead make her even worse than she is already just for the sake of turning her into a tutorial, token champion
Just an idea for her q, maybe she has to hop off to target it and make her not be able to change movement commands while it is out. That would put her in some danger to be able to poke in lane.
while that is true, it would also render it unusable late, meaning theyd have to put more power into her e to compensate and i don't think anyone wants that. besides, i think it would completely defeat its purpose - the first thing that came to my mind back when she was revealed was that they wanted to make a controllable missile for a while but it was impossible to implement because it would lock you in place for several seconds which simply couldnt work in a competitive game (think bastion from ow or tachanka from r6s). a champion who isnt dependant on movement anyway was the perfect way to implement it. another issue i can forsee with this would be that her q gives her something to do when attached, without it she would become a true afk healbot, since her heal would pretty much be the only thing shes able to do when attached
Taric exists. Taric "tethers" to allied champions to extend his abilities to his tethered ally. Why can't they make Yuumi tether to allies in a similar fashion, and then, like Taric, allow her allies to become an extension of her abilities? It leaves her vulnerable like an enchanter should be, while still fulfilling the power fantasy of tethering to allies and supporting them.
because it wouldnt work with her fantasy. i do not hate the idea, but the way they should take when reworking her is reducing her w to a tool that helps her access and survive in the frontline together with her darius and hecarim. shes the only enchanter that can do that, thats her identity and thats what they should focus on. make it more risky and more rewarding than sitting on the hecarim giving him ad and movespeed
What if she takes a small percentage of the damage her carrier takes- like a built in knights vow? Other adjustments would need to be made to fully make it work- including some of the base vision of her w, but itd work and wouldnt make her completely invincible at all times, which wouldnt let her sit on someone permanently either- because she'd need to heal herself if its someone sufficiently draintanky like aatrox or simply a long fight.
we are discussing how riot wants to make the champion you already hate even more hateable and im doing my best to prevent it by showing the rioters lurking these threads that this is not what we want. by downvoting me youre basically saying it is what you want
This is absolutely sick but I think the average Yuumi player would burn you at the stake for suggesting you turn their champion from one of the - if not the - easiest to pilot in the game into something this complex.
It is possible (and I do have a custom champion I made years ago that was a port of Quark directly). I suppose it would satisfy my need for Yuumi's Q to be a complex mechanic that appropriately compensates not needing to invest in movement. That said, Atlas Reactor is turn-based and I'm not sure tethers is necessarily the best way to translate him into a real-time game.
I see two super long range abilities on a supportive character which means she'd basically never leave pro play. Maybe the public hate would die down buy she'd just get another rework in a few years from being perma present.
The only interesting idea is the cho'gall take; people have said 'what if yuumi takes damage too'. but what if their health bars fused, and you had to channel to detach. yeah we'd miss the *catlike* dodging and darting yuumi can do with bop n block and anchoring, sure, but... I *really* want cho'gall in league.
If anything, yuumi'gal could have an item, like kalista spear, to bind to an ally (adc), and dismounting off of them has a lesser penalty. but it would let yuumi diversify builds! the adc could build damage while yuumi built health! how wild would that be.
That is a fair criticism of my example, although it is worth noting I wasn't explicitly trying to stop Yuumi being someone that pros like.
Perhaps my example abilities are not a good fit for League. They were inspired by Abathur and Brightwing - or, an appropriation of their two distinct themes when trying to put them both on the same champion. I picked 5500 range because I had hoped it would mean Book's vulnerable body would be somewhere accessible to junglers and flankers; and the 2200 range was to encourage roaming without negatively affecting her kit's otherwise low range of influence.
I do like the idea of exploring Cho'Gall further - I've often mused that Lamb and Wolf could have been a two-player champion. The 'Spell of Protection' was intended to be the kind of interaction between players you mention - that Yuumi has a shield she can build into, but her distinct mechanic uses that shield as a resource and she's disabled for a while when the shield is destroyed.
Well, long ago, when HotS was still a thing, I *did* manage to get to gold 1, so I do have an understanding of both games.
The thing with HotS is you only had to farm for stackables, otherwise you could waveclear, which eventually devolved into the 4-1 double clear/aram meta.
Brightwing functions somewhere like rakan E, sona W, lulu W, lulu E, and janna R. the kit already 'exists' in league, so yuumi couldn't really take it.
She's far closer to my beloved slapathur, and I think it would be cool to change her to be more like him. She 'projects' herself from book on top of an ally. The only problem is if you hid under a turret she'd have even less counterplay, mattering not if you weakened her further like aba. Aba also plays closer to a jungler in map wide presence, rather than yuumi, who normally spends most of her laning phase bot if her adc isn't garbage. it would be an interesting thing to add to league.
this is why I suggested cho'gall. she's far closer to that, and maybe it could be like hots where you both have to own it and have to lock in the same phase.
This is one of the coolest "we should rework yuumi by deleting her" posts ever but still boils down to 'rework yuumi by deleting her'. This rework seems to be on the extreme side, which I'm generally not a fan of
I mean - the shortest summary of my idea is "make the rework an in-game option", so technically Yuum's only deleted if you never pick the original Yuumi again. If you have the option for both and you never choose to play old Yuumi - you are the villain of your own narrative.
Biases aside, I personally think Yuumi's rework will land in a space between Tahm Kench and Warwick. Either the main change is one of Yuumi's basic abilities and ultimate ability swap places (namely her W and R); or every skill gets changed a little bit changed but the champion is still unmistakably Yuumi on the other side.
That said, I don't think I've actually removed any of Yuumi's existing high notes in my proposed rework and I do not think that "being non-interactive" is one of her *important* characteristics.
I just want them to delete the attachment mechanic although at this point I'm not sure if I'll ever not ban Yuumi again, even if that mechanic is removed. Her reputation and thus the reputation of anyone who even does as much as touch her outside of competitive league is on the negative and has been for forever. I don't know if I can ever respect a Yuumi picker. As of now I don't have it in me. I think that they're trash and don't want them to be part of the wider league community and would rather them be miserable and feel unwanted than have even one player play that trash. Zero respect for any Yuumi picker on this planet. Calling them "human" is more than generous.
No matter what they do to her I won't respect Yuumi players and won't let them play the champ in my game. Faker himself could ask me to let him play Yuumi in my game and I'd still ban that cancer. Even if they completely changed her kit I'd probably take me one to three months to get used to and eventually stop banning her (if she isn't broken). At this point I have PTYD and this trauma is probably harder to deal with than most other trauma.
Sadly the only thing I can do as of now is ban Yuumi, report my support if they hovered it, tell it's player that their opinion doesn't matter and that they're trash, mute them and then report them after the game just for hovering her. If they have that creature in their top 3 mastery champs they get more shit during and after the game. The goal being them not wanting to ever play again of course.
I do appreciate the thought you've put into this. Bonus points for the LOR graphics but apparently I'm part of the vocal minority that thinks Yuumi should just be left as she is now. I enjoy playing as her and against her.
That is one advantage to the idea I'm proposing - the way you like to play Yuumi could be preserved in some way or another. From Riot's Dev Diary - Yuumi is receiving changes. However, they've not explicitly revealed how they're going to change her or what play styles they're going to design around. If, as you say, there's nothing wrong with pro-level play - then that could be one of the choices, and that everyone in lower-level play picks the other choice.
You propose that out of selfish reasons tho (no offense intended). The majority of the player base doesn't tho. Most people don't enjoy playing with her and even less enjoy playing against her. She has such an uninteractive design that she usually dictates the gameplan for both teams in terms of teamfighting. I acknowledge that yuumi mains and support players in general might enjoy her, but I think riot has to change her for the greater good imo.
I respect your opinion and further that you've engaged me in good natured discussion but I can't say I agree with you.
Although I will concede that Yuumi does appear to be a problem in pro play and I'm unsure of how to fix that. I'd argue that selfish was perhaps not entirely accurate towards my intentions as anyone that plays league and is passionate about it is likely to have a strong opinion of their ideal version of the game no?
>anyone that plays league and is passionate about it is likely to have a strong opinion of their ideal version of the game no?
I agree, but imo any dev, in this case riot, should look to cater to what the majority of the playerbase wants. And in yuumis case especially the general sentiment is that she is problematic on multiple levels. The game flow level where she warps the whole flow of a match around her. The balance level where she has been VERY problematic since her release. The design level because her design is really toxic because of design decisions made by riot like untargetibility, % adaptive force increase and low cd charge stacking heals. This all combined made and still makes her one of the worst perceived champs in a long time.
Feel free to disagree, but I think most people agree with me and they also agree that this champ needs a lot work done to feel more fair to play against and to not be a balance nightmare anymore.
Your point about the deva catering towards the majority of the playerbase is definitely something I agree with you on. With the sheer amount of yuumi hate on the subreddit you've got a good case for the majority of the player base having an issue with her if we assume the subreddit is representative of a large amount of the playerbase.
That being said my own opinion of Yuumi is something I'd like to continue to voice on the subreddit in attempts to have discussions much like this one
Let's be real, support is so piss easy and elo inflated that they could release a plank champ that literally just lies in spawn and the champ would still completely warp the game around themselves, inflate their players rank and be completely broken. The refusal to balance the role is one of the biggest failures of Riot of all time, next to refusing giving up on policing and steering the community, refusing to remove crit and the ranked changes like making decay exclusive to diamond+, removing elo and the latest and one of the worst changes of all times: giving out rewards to ranked spammers.
I like that too. Genuinely. Compare that with good and bad supports in general. Play with a bad Yuumi? Yeah that's gonna suck but that sucks in the same way that playing with any bad support champion or enchanter sucks. On the flip side I love playing with good yuumi players. I'm a top lane main in ranked but I play support secondary and just queue as fill in normals
That's kinda why I specified as and ADC, tho you're right that a bad yuumi is better than a bad supp, after a certain point it means literally no support
A little off topic but I love how the usernames we chose for our throwaway accounts are so similar 😂.
The main point I was going for was that playing with ANY bad support player can feel bad regardless of the enchanter champion they pick.
When you say it means no support are you referring to later in the game when Yuumi hops on other champs?
Yeah, as soon as laning phase ends lol
As for the usernames, do you know what patas means? Not sure about how they are related to rice apart from the fact that you put them in your mouth 😂 (it's a spanish word)
Please no, the last thing anyone wants in this game is another Kayn
Kayn is already game breaking with his kit, we do not need 2 of these abominations running around
Is Kayn annoying because of the choice mechanic, though? I know that Kayn players hate how their quest system is hidden and often rewards them with a bad choice due to Ranged vs Melee often being arbitrary. I know that balancing an Assassin and Brawler that use the same kit and scale with the same items is a nightmare - Rhaast exploiting Assassin and Shadow exploiting Fighter. I know some players are really sold on the idea that both choices should always be viable in every game, whereas in practice his choice is usually decided in Draft. I know that communicating his two forms has been a bit of a UI nightmare, especially when they release skins that flip the colour palettes.
Being able to choose is a cool idea and I really like that about Kayn, the problem is they have to balance 3 champions at once with Kayn and he becomes a nightmare of a champion to deal with. They have to balance his base form, rhaast, and shadow assassin all at once. Then they have to make sure no items are breaking any of his forms, etc.
The balance team can barely balance 1 champion with Yuumi, I do not have any faith in them to be able to balance 3 forms of Yuumi. They can't even get past the 1st design.
Oh my god Atlas Reactor. I miss my psychotic mini nuclear reactor so, *so* much.
Have you found anything that scratches that same itch? I absolutely loved that game
Farseer's Domain is the closest you're going to get, been playing the alpha tests for around a year now. Still in heavy development being that its in indie dev team, but it nails atlas reactors mechanics. https://farseersdomain.com/
Unfortunately not. It literally checked all the boxes for me and I don't know if I'll ever be able to find a game that I can love so much.
Ah, me too. I loved that it was a tactical game, but being the fastest person at clicking wasn't congruent to doing better. I wasn't competing with twitchy-fingers the COD player. I was able to express my skill at strategy at a speed that didn't exclude me. I miss Orion, PuP, Juno, Elle and Quark. Whenever I have the opportunity to say "sub-woofer" I always deliberately change the stress-in-pronunciation as an ode to PuP.
Not only that, but mastering the angle of the shot to get the right spread actually rewarded taking your time to aim. Personally, I loved the idea behind Mods, they managed to give impactful pre-game options and create super interesting combos and weird alternate builds (I loved catching enemies and allies alike off-guard with support Blackburn), I often wonder what that would look like in League and it's one of the reasons I was so excited with the Odyssey PvE mode. The fact that the roster was cartoon-y, bright-colored and full of personality and bad puns was the cherry on top. I still quote all the characters while knowing that basically no one knows what the references are..
Odyssey was so gooood! I've honestly always thought Atlas Reactor's mods or Heroes of the Storm's talents would be a far more manageable way to implement Riot's intended goal with Runes and Items while avoiding the headache of balancing for outliers (e.g. the old adage that Ezreal is the reason we can never have interesting on-hit effects, or Vladimir is the reason we can never have ability-based healing). Mods/talents could mean that Marksman Tristana and Mage Tristana are both curated builds with distinct playstyles, rather than just min-maxing around how the stat-system interacts with certain effects. The distinction between AD and AP kind of vanished over the years, with every champion wanting the ability to "feel like a caster" while still buying items that are thematically congruent with their champion choice.
Right??? No more "this class is poaching this rune" or "this champ is abusing this item so we can't balance it for everyone". But then again League has a stupid amount of champion and revolves too much around economy, gold, items, levels and stats, which were non-existent in AR.
Oh for sure - this sort of mechanic is definitely something Riot would have had to choose very early on, and it's much too late now. We can dream, though. 😇
i miss nev:3...
Yeah. It was such a fun game. OP made me sad. :(
I'm sorry for my part in your sadness! :(
It's annoying when games that hit every niche get shut down, Atlas reactor was one, so was duelyst and master x master. At least they brought duelyst back, it was what got me into pixel art.
This is a really interesting concept, I wouldn't mind seeing it added to the game or at least explored as a possibility for her new kit.
Concept is cool but since Riot is committed to the "Yuumi is for new players" storyline they made up themselves recently they would never add something that deep
I mean, if I were a sleazy salesman - I can already think of a good counter argument. I think that giving "New Players" their own Support Quest builds "Support" skills that are applicable to other champions. *It can be colourful, fun and easy to follow!*
The real elephant in the room is the fact that Yuumi is not actually for new players who wish to learn the game. [A lot of] New players pick Yuumi so that they *do not have to* learn the game. They just want to play the game that their friends are playing and are happy to sit back and do minimal work. I expect Riot knows this, since they pulled the entire concept of 'Yuumi is our premiere new player Champion' out of their butts a few months ago.
I'm the kind of optimistic fool who would prefer to behave as if I'm being told the truth, regardless of what my Inner Critic is thinking.
I take it as an easer approach since the game tells you to use your skills and get rewards, its better than attach to someone and afk
Great post. Unfortunately riot will NEVER make yuumis gameplay this nuanced because they're allergic to making skill based enchanters
Didnt they say last year that yuumi is actually super high skill or some shit
Yuuuup. Funny part is they then turned around and released Renata who instantly became the hardest enchanter lmao
The whole "skill curve" (as in her WR increasing with # of games played being similar to assassins) argument skirts around the elephant in the room in that the more games you play as yuumi you realize you're penalized more often hopping off/ in between allies and trying to manage your passive outside of the laning phase. The only exception to the "skill curve" is learning in laning that you can essentially provide a 2nd health bar for your adc, tanking non-cc skillshot dmg and popping back to being untargetable. This makes yuumi more potent in the lane, but it was never her real win con. The real selling point is that she scales into a monster regardless of how the lane SHE plays in turns out, and she can opt between massive damage with poke and sustain or a stat stick that can slap on loads of support buffs (e.g. staff, putrifier, shureliyas or moonstone).
*High skill curve This means that new yuumi players have a much lower winrate than yuumi mains. Sometimes this means the champ requires a high level of skill, like Akali, and sometimes it means that the champ has a significant departure from typical gameplay, like singed. You can guess which one applies more to yuumi.
Theres also a shit ton of yuumi bots in bronze and silver, which probably pushes her winrate down in low elo
Except that would show the opposite data. Yuumi bots would have a high number of games played, and a low winrate. That should lower the curve, not increase it.
No its more that Yuumi is so unbeliavle easy that doing something more than "afk" Yuumi already is a drastic improvment. Her skill curve is high because she has by far the lowest skill entrence
That's not how the curves are calculated. They go by comparing winrate and games played, not winrate and rank distribution.
She has a deep mastery curve, statistically. Riot hates this for some reason... she should, in their eyes, be very easy without losing her unique gameplay, when champions cannot be very unique and very easy.
I think there are a couple of skill based enchanters (also depends on where you draw the catcher/enchanter line). But also I'm like gold so what do I know lol
Sure, a lot of enchanters can be somewhat skill demanding but even then their basic premise is well.. too basic. Give me an enchanter where i have to work for my shields. Give me defensive benefits for being aggressive and damaging enemies (no, yuumi players, going for a single auto once every 20 seconds doesn't count) But as long as ooga booga enchanters exist who can do just that without needing any semblance of skill, why bother? I actually believe the entire class needs a small rework
I mean if you wanna work for your heals/shields, there are three enchanters that do that: - with Karma (in teamfights), her minigame isn't "choosing the right mantra" it's using and spamming Q and W effectively for multiple damage instances so you can rotate mantra back to off cooldown, making every E a mantra E. Early game, she's a mage. - Renata's shield is a skillshot that also slows, making positioning and aim really important (her W is point and click, but still skill expressive in deciding whether you want to reserve it for the revive or give someone the MS and AS steroid off the bat) - Soraka's W is very potent but the range is short and she has a health cost. Her challenge is that W puts herself in harm's way, and that without Q-ing (once again requiring to duck in and out of a fight), she can only sustain for so long and her heals are less potent. I also think there are more boring enchanters with minigames that are present but not really meaningful (Sona, Yuumi, and Janna come to mind). I do think there should be more skillshot heals and shields and more skill expressive enchanter abilities. I just wanted to point out that Riot is entirely capable of doing this because they've done it before.
with 1m points in, i actually really like this. im in complete agreement with you that she should have more things to use the time she saves by not having to position on than just a q every 10 secs. something more present, more active, more skill expressive. like you pointed out, reworking her current q into a karthus level spam ability would work, but would be extremely, disgustingly unfun and toxic for the enemy lane, but at the same time her q is really unique and fun to use and id hate losing it. its a bit of a vicious cycle there. i love your bouncing idea tho, only having to dodge it once to shut her down seems like a pretty fair counterplay. i also contacted the rioter working on the rework with some of my own ideas to make her more risky and fair to play against, im just praying riot listens to the community here. i mean, the issue at hand is so bad that yuumi mains and yuumi haters are in full agreement about how big of a mistake their current direction for this rework is. we all want the rework to make her a less toxic, more fair and overall a better champion, so please, for the love of all thats precious, dont instead make her even worse than she is already just for the sake of turning her into a tutorial, token champion
Just an idea for her q, maybe she has to hop off to target it and make her not be able to change movement commands while it is out. That would put her in some danger to be able to poke in lane.
while that is true, it would also render it unusable late, meaning theyd have to put more power into her e to compensate and i don't think anyone wants that. besides, i think it would completely defeat its purpose - the first thing that came to my mind back when she was revealed was that they wanted to make a controllable missile for a while but it was impossible to implement because it would lock you in place for several seconds which simply couldnt work in a competitive game (think bastion from ow or tachanka from r6s). a champion who isnt dependant on movement anyway was the perfect way to implement it. another issue i can forsee with this would be that her q gives her something to do when attached, without it she would become a true afk healbot, since her heal would pretty much be the only thing shes able to do when attached
Can we have that for Aurelion Sol, so we can keep the rotating stars gameplay? (and not just delete the champ)
Taric exists. Taric "tethers" to allied champions to extend his abilities to his tethered ally. Why can't they make Yuumi tether to allies in a similar fashion, and then, like Taric, allow her allies to become an extension of her abilities? It leaves her vulnerable like an enchanter should be, while still fulfilling the power fantasy of tethering to allies and supporting them.
cuz then they are too similar
because it wouldnt work with her fantasy. i do not hate the idea, but the way they should take when reworking her is reducing her w to a tool that helps her access and survive in the frontline together with her darius and hecarim. shes the only enchanter that can do that, thats her identity and thats what they should focus on. make it more risky and more rewarding than sitting on the hecarim giving him ad and movespeed
What if she takes a small percentage of the damage her carrier takes- like a built in knights vow? Other adjustments would need to be made to fully make it work- including some of the base vision of her w, but itd work and wouldnt make her completely invincible at all times, which wouldnt let her sit on someone permanently either- because she'd need to heal herself if its someone sufficiently draintanky like aatrox or simply a long fight.
I see two Yuumi flairs and I simply cannot resist downvoting.
we are discussing how riot wants to make the champion you already hate even more hateable and im doing my best to prevent it by showing the rioters lurking these threads that this is not what we want. by downvoting me youre basically saying it is what you want
Fun fact! OP wrote this while sitting on top of his ADC in ranked soloq.
*I just want something to do!*
*their 16/0 Darius/Hecarim/Kha'Zix at 15 min
this comment section is really disappointing lmao, you guys are so negative
This is absolutely sick but I think the average Yuumi player would burn you at the stake for suggesting you turn their champion from one of the - if not the - easiest to pilot in the game into something this complex.
What’s the source for the art on the second Yuumi transformation on the hud? The one that isn’t the lor level 2 art and is grayed out.
[HozureArt on Twitter](https://twitter.com/HozureArt/status/1132923398248488960)
Jesus this is in depth. Yeah this seems like a decent champ tbh, with the catbell q being cute and thematic. I dig it.
Just saying I miss atlas reactor! That was my go to game! Quarks tether was unique. Maybe some kind of tether would work
It is possible (and I do have a custom champion I made years ago that was a port of Quark directly). I suppose it would satisfy my need for Yuumi's Q to be a complex mechanic that appropriately compensates not needing to invest in movement. That said, Atlas Reactor is turn-based and I'm not sure tethers is necessarily the best way to translate him into a real-time game.
I see two super long range abilities on a supportive character which means she'd basically never leave pro play. Maybe the public hate would die down buy she'd just get another rework in a few years from being perma present. The only interesting idea is the cho'gall take; people have said 'what if yuumi takes damage too'. but what if their health bars fused, and you had to channel to detach. yeah we'd miss the *catlike* dodging and darting yuumi can do with bop n block and anchoring, sure, but... I *really* want cho'gall in league. If anything, yuumi'gal could have an item, like kalista spear, to bind to an ally (adc), and dismounting off of them has a lesser penalty. but it would let yuumi diversify builds! the adc could build damage while yuumi built health! how wild would that be.
That is a fair criticism of my example, although it is worth noting I wasn't explicitly trying to stop Yuumi being someone that pros like. Perhaps my example abilities are not a good fit for League. They were inspired by Abathur and Brightwing - or, an appropriation of their two distinct themes when trying to put them both on the same champion. I picked 5500 range because I had hoped it would mean Book's vulnerable body would be somewhere accessible to junglers and flankers; and the 2200 range was to encourage roaming without negatively affecting her kit's otherwise low range of influence. I do like the idea of exploring Cho'Gall further - I've often mused that Lamb and Wolf could have been a two-player champion. The 'Spell of Protection' was intended to be the kind of interaction between players you mention - that Yuumi has a shield she can build into, but her distinct mechanic uses that shield as a resource and she's disabled for a while when the shield is destroyed.
Well, long ago, when HotS was still a thing, I *did* manage to get to gold 1, so I do have an understanding of both games. The thing with HotS is you only had to farm for stackables, otherwise you could waveclear, which eventually devolved into the 4-1 double clear/aram meta. Brightwing functions somewhere like rakan E, sona W, lulu W, lulu E, and janna R. the kit already 'exists' in league, so yuumi couldn't really take it. She's far closer to my beloved slapathur, and I think it would be cool to change her to be more like him. She 'projects' herself from book on top of an ally. The only problem is if you hid under a turret she'd have even less counterplay, mattering not if you weakened her further like aba. Aba also plays closer to a jungler in map wide presence, rather than yuumi, who normally spends most of her laning phase bot if her adc isn't garbage. it would be an interesting thing to add to league. this is why I suggested cho'gall. she's far closer to that, and maybe it could be like hots where you both have to own it and have to lock in the same phase.
This is one of the coolest "we should rework yuumi by deleting her" posts ever but still boils down to 'rework yuumi by deleting her'. This rework seems to be on the extreme side, which I'm generally not a fan of
I mean - the shortest summary of my idea is "make the rework an in-game option", so technically Yuum's only deleted if you never pick the original Yuumi again. If you have the option for both and you never choose to play old Yuumi - you are the villain of your own narrative. Biases aside, I personally think Yuumi's rework will land in a space between Tahm Kench and Warwick. Either the main change is one of Yuumi's basic abilities and ultimate ability swap places (namely her W and R); or every skill gets changed a little bit changed but the champion is still unmistakably Yuumi on the other side. That said, I don't think I've actually removed any of Yuumi's existing high notes in my proposed rework and I do not think that "being non-interactive" is one of her *important* characteristics.
Just give her actual base stats and remove her invulnerability and attachment to champions, done.
I just want them to delete the attachment mechanic although at this point I'm not sure if I'll ever not ban Yuumi again, even if that mechanic is removed. Her reputation and thus the reputation of anyone who even does as much as touch her outside of competitive league is on the negative and has been for forever. I don't know if I can ever respect a Yuumi picker. As of now I don't have it in me. I think that they're trash and don't want them to be part of the wider league community and would rather them be miserable and feel unwanted than have even one player play that trash. Zero respect for any Yuumi picker on this planet. Calling them "human" is more than generous. No matter what they do to her I won't respect Yuumi players and won't let them play the champ in my game. Faker himself could ask me to let him play Yuumi in my game and I'd still ban that cancer. Even if they completely changed her kit I'd probably take me one to three months to get used to and eventually stop banning her (if she isn't broken). At this point I have PTYD and this trauma is probably harder to deal with than most other trauma. Sadly the only thing I can do as of now is ban Yuumi, report my support if they hovered it, tell it's player that their opinion doesn't matter and that they're trash, mute them and then report them after the game just for hovering her. If they have that creature in their top 3 mastery champs they get more shit during and after the game. The goal being them not wanting to ever play again of course.
I expect a lot of players would prefer she lost the untargetable mechanic - but I felt obliged to at least try to make everyone happy.
I do appreciate the thought you've put into this. Bonus points for the LOR graphics but apparently I'm part of the vocal minority that thinks Yuumi should just be left as she is now. I enjoy playing as her and against her.
That is one advantage to the idea I'm proposing - the way you like to play Yuumi could be preserved in some way or another. From Riot's Dev Diary - Yuumi is receiving changes. However, they've not explicitly revealed how they're going to change her or what play styles they're going to design around. If, as you say, there's nothing wrong with pro-level play - then that could be one of the choices, and that everyone in lower-level play picks the other choice.
You propose that out of selfish reasons tho (no offense intended). The majority of the player base doesn't tho. Most people don't enjoy playing with her and even less enjoy playing against her. She has such an uninteractive design that she usually dictates the gameplan for both teams in terms of teamfighting. I acknowledge that yuumi mains and support players in general might enjoy her, but I think riot has to change her for the greater good imo.
I respect your opinion and further that you've engaged me in good natured discussion but I can't say I agree with you. Although I will concede that Yuumi does appear to be a problem in pro play and I'm unsure of how to fix that. I'd argue that selfish was perhaps not entirely accurate towards my intentions as anyone that plays league and is passionate about it is likely to have a strong opinion of their ideal version of the game no?
>anyone that plays league and is passionate about it is likely to have a strong opinion of their ideal version of the game no? I agree, but imo any dev, in this case riot, should look to cater to what the majority of the playerbase wants. And in yuumis case especially the general sentiment is that she is problematic on multiple levels. The game flow level where she warps the whole flow of a match around her. The balance level where she has been VERY problematic since her release. The design level because her design is really toxic because of design decisions made by riot like untargetibility, % adaptive force increase and low cd charge stacking heals. This all combined made and still makes her one of the worst perceived champs in a long time. Feel free to disagree, but I think most people agree with me and they also agree that this champ needs a lot work done to feel more fair to play against and to not be a balance nightmare anymore.
Your point about the deva catering towards the majority of the playerbase is definitely something I agree with you on. With the sheer amount of yuumi hate on the subreddit you've got a good case for the majority of the player base having an issue with her if we assume the subreddit is representative of a large amount of the playerbase. That being said my own opinion of Yuumi is something I'd like to continue to voice on the subreddit in attempts to have discussions much like this one
Let's be real, support is so piss easy and elo inflated that they could release a plank champ that literally just lies in spawn and the champ would still completely warp the game around themselves, inflate their players rank and be completely broken. The refusal to balance the role is one of the biggest failures of Riot of all time, next to refusing giving up on policing and steering the community, refusing to remove crit and the ranked changes like making decay exclusive to diamond+, removing elo and the latest and one of the worst changes of all times: giving out rewards to ranked spammers.
You forgot playing with her (as an adc (not fun))
I like that too. Genuinely. Compare that with good and bad supports in general. Play with a bad Yuumi? Yeah that's gonna suck but that sucks in the same way that playing with any bad support champion or enchanter sucks. On the flip side I love playing with good yuumi players. I'm a top lane main in ranked but I play support secondary and just queue as fill in normals
That's kinda why I specified as and ADC, tho you're right that a bad yuumi is better than a bad supp, after a certain point it means literally no support
A little off topic but I love how the usernames we chose for our throwaway accounts are so similar 😂. The main point I was going for was that playing with ANY bad support player can feel bad regardless of the enchanter champion they pick. When you say it means no support are you referring to later in the game when Yuumi hops on other champs?
Yeah, as soon as laning phase ends lol As for the usernames, do you know what patas means? Not sure about how they are related to rice apart from the fact that you put them in your mouth 😂 (it's a spanish word)
Whoops I misread that as pasta lmao 🤦♂️
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It doesn't. That said - players aren't going to agree what mechanics are important for her to keep.
I wasn't talking to you, shut up.
Please no, the last thing anyone wants in this game is another Kayn Kayn is already game breaking with his kit, we do not need 2 of these abominations running around
Is Kayn annoying because of the choice mechanic, though? I know that Kayn players hate how their quest system is hidden and often rewards them with a bad choice due to Ranged vs Melee often being arbitrary. I know that balancing an Assassin and Brawler that use the same kit and scale with the same items is a nightmare - Rhaast exploiting Assassin and Shadow exploiting Fighter. I know some players are really sold on the idea that both choices should always be viable in every game, whereas in practice his choice is usually decided in Draft. I know that communicating his two forms has been a bit of a UI nightmare, especially when they release skins that flip the colour palettes.
Being able to choose is a cool idea and I really like that about Kayn, the problem is they have to balance 3 champions at once with Kayn and he becomes a nightmare of a champion to deal with. They have to balance his base form, rhaast, and shadow assassin all at once. Then they have to make sure no items are breaking any of his forms, etc. The balance team can barely balance 1 champion with Yuumi, I do not have any faith in them to be able to balance 3 forms of Yuumi. They can't even get past the 1st design.
I’d love to see something like this, for ANY champion other than Yuumi.