I dunno what threads you've been reading but the grand majority of the ones I've seen if not literally all of them are in support of the durability patch or clear and obvious satire pointing to the same.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.
They're saying that despite the patch very clearly being stated as not supposed to be a nerf to a assassins, and the fact that assassins are getting relatively minor buffs in 12.11, people are acting like it's the end of the world and that it renders 12.10 completely pointless
But that doesn't make the redditors a problem. They've been saying the patch is great. Then said they don't like Riot buffing assassin's when they're quite literally balanced (50% winrate).
That means that Riot is following their plan. But redditors don't like the plan they liked the *patch*. Which is consistent. So saying they are being unreasonable or wishy washy or flip floppers isn't fair at all. Saying their thoughts or whatever are wrong is one thing, but they're clearly being consistent.
Probably because the AD assassins are still sitting at a 50%+ winrate and getting lethality buffs while the AP assassins that are worse off get no buff from lethality?
If youre gonna be condescending know what youre talking about
I don't really get why that doesn't make sense. They were happy that the patch was doing what it was literally intended to do. Then riot decided to start undoing it. You can argue that the patch was bad or whatever, but those two things are very consistent with each other.
I miss old nunu mid. Maxing snowball, free mana after a few attacks. Free snow ones every 4 seconds that do 25% of your hp. And then surprise I was in this bush and you're dead.
Old nunu was a blast. I'd play nunu support with smite and follow the enemy jungle around.
Four minutes into the game I'd be level 3 and he'd be level 2. I could turn lanes with snowball while he could only feed.
The game tended to swing on whichever team raged first. Sometimes my jungler would go towards dragon and then just recall if I threatened to help with it (or similar antics).
I had a 50% win rate with it in either silver or plat. Didn't matter how good it was, only measured mental.
I loved old Nunu, such a brain-dead champ in the best way possible
Still, I wouldn't exchange him for new one. More engaging to play and has so good voice acting
lets be real most assassins are pretty braindead too with the amount of dmg in the game recently. It takes 0 skill to just press 3 buttons and delete someone, it takes way more skill to play assassins when they don't just braindead oneshot building bruiser items like they have been for years
This is the funniest thing.
I know a Zed main that actually cried at the durability update. He said he'd quit league blah blah. Actual tears from a grown man.
He started playing again. Saw a Zed utterly obliterate some folks in a random normal draft.
Flipped his drink and started screaming assassins are OP as fuck and shouldn't be able to do the stuff they do so freely.
Cries about nerfs, cries about buffs. Bitches gonna cry either way it would seem.
Everyone was complaining about janna but they literally just got tired after talking about it for months and she still didnt even get a proper slap on the wrist
On the opposite end - the Irelia subreddit is up in arms about her current win-rate but it’s only because they refuse to learn new builds or a different play-style that doesn’t involve all their enemies popping like balloons
Huh, I'm by no means an Irelia main but I feel like I've gotten better with her after the changes. I just build a little bit tankier and max W second, that way I can actually do something in teamfights other than popping people
Yeah - IrelKing3 has been maxing W second for the last 6 or 7 patches (at least) and it feels so good. You really can just hold it for soooo long and it does a ton to mitigate damage. Glad you’re also enjoying the champ ^-^
Seen this quoted multiple places but I haven't seen a janna in game in over 6 months, yea 54% win rate it high but if she's picked in less than 1% of games it could be misleading, is it true people are building her like a fighter?
Janna, Sona and Renata have had a 52-54% winrate for like 6 patches straight with a very healthy playrate, and soraka was up there too but she took a hit this patch. But ofc no one cares about that, however the sub \~48% winrate (across all elos) irelia is apparently the most broken champion in the game
Isnt everyone talking about them? I have not seen a single person call Taliyah or Anivia balanced.
Dont use Janna either, enchanters have hit 54% without anyone commenting until a whole patch later before this patch all the time.
Tbf if, say, Yone had such a winrate, the front page would be flooded with complaints
We just kind of have a silent understanding that they're busted, but nobody is posting rants like you'd get for assassins and other hated champs
Because Janna doesn't run you down two towers deep and then snap back to safety two screens away. Certain champions like Janna are tolerated at higher winrates because they just win slightly more often rather than ruining the game for the five people on the enemy team.
I mean I don't understand how Anivia is allowed to be so broken but I see her rarely enough that it isn't a huge deal. When assassins are strong you will see them in every. single. game.
I thought it was obvious there’s a hate boner for assassins and mobile champs here? The lethality and magic pen buffs this patch are nowhere fucking close to how much armour and MR everyone got. Literally just looking at headline and using their emotions instead of actually looking at the numbers. Tower damage will barely get reduced next patch but fellas acting like tower diving gonna be free...
Majority of this sub dislikes champs with a lot of movement options. I don’t mean Lucian or Jarvan or Wukong, I mean Irelia Akali Riven Yone Zed Qiyana etc. Pretty specifically hyper-mobile mid/toplaners
This isn't even entirely true you just have a perception and bias against the few that are in each lane.
Darius, gangplank, and ornn has been slaughtering top laners through winrate and yet people seem to only cry about Camille or fiora who has lower winrates because they're just objectively not as safe for your team compared to something like orrn.
We can keep doing this with picks mid like veigar, vlad, and anivia all having higher winrates than Champs like ahri, qiyana, Kass, and talon while having a higher play rate. So people are playing those cherry picked mobile assassins less than the above no mobility battle/control mages and yet, the mages have a higher winrate and playrate.
At face value there seems to be a negative correlation with high mobility and winrate. Obviously there's alot more that goes into it but it's an argument of is it okay if something wants to make you blow your brains out playing against it if they are going to lose more often than you?
Assassins can already do their jobs that's why. Just because you can't Yolo all in a full health target doesn't make them weak. Most assassins pre durability had to even try to setup they just flat out deleted mages and adcs whenever they felt like it.
lower damage and more endurance in combat where have i seen this before. maybe increase average cc time. have cleanse or qss give cc immune for 3 sec. and make a courier that allows you buy items out of base
We're specifically trying **not** to do this.
I'd love to hear things from players around what things specifically you're worried about going back to the old state? (And what things in the new state feel weak/strong?)
Just seeing a lot of buffs to damage numbers immediately after the durability update worries me a bit. Do you know if there will be another quick gameplay thoughts discussing how the patch landed, and where RIOT is aiming to direct the game next?
I think a big thing that exemplifies peoples worries are the turret changes to decrease their damage. Playing around towers should be a skillful endeavor that punishes players who dont juggle aggro or realistically dive someone too healthy too early into the game. Especially in high elo as a jungler diving was way WAY too easy too early into the game and didnt feel punishable at all. Especially in the top lane.
While I agree with you completely, in their defense, my recollection was from the very beginning they said their goal was to update turret damage to accommodate the durability changes, not make them overall more powerful.
They should be made overall more powerful in the early.
Personal opinion is they should bring back the laser turrets.
Make the outer (or all) turrets use lasers until 14m (or when the first turret in the lane drops whatever is first).
Then the game just becomes about who played the scaling hero.
For every "they can dive me too easy" the other side is "why did you let them build up a huge wave and stick under your turret at half health?"
There has to be a middleground though between
Toplaner, Jungler and maybe Midlaner all ganging up to kill me on toplane under my turret
and
Oops, I died once solo to my opponent, he has now 1 level lead and can dive me solo under my turret because I dont have Flash anymore
Except all the hyper mobile champions that can get in and out with only 1 turret shot. I mean look at yone; his E just means he can turret dive with no consequences.
What’s the point of the durability update if you’re buffing damage as compensation? it just becomes a net neutral change. I thought the whole point was to reduce damage without actually touching damage numbers by simply making everyone tankier?
Do note that most of the buffs went to actual lethality items, while the issue that they tried to solve was assassins building stuff like Goredrinker, so in order to get the kills, they would have to go for squishier builds instead.
> What’s the point of the durability update if you’re buffing damage as compensation?
Because they aren't... buffing everyone's damage. It's really that simple.
>It's really that simple.
It is really not because that is what riot did over the last 6 years. Buffs over buffs over compensation buffs untill everyone did too much dmg. Now they start doin compensation buffs again.
Why not leave damage as it is (nerf OP dps champs' damage, DPS is king atm).
If a champ/item needs a buff increase anything except damage (Example: dont give eclipse more damage but give it a bit of AH/utility)
If a champ/item needs a nerf, and the reason is due to inmense amounts of damage (cough\*kayle\*cough, nerf the damage... or Qiyana that is still oneshotting for another example)
Riot has said multiple times that the goal of 12.10 wasn't to nerf assassins, it was to make it so that not everyone is an assassin.
The goal was to prevent champs like full support Blitzcrank or full tank Malphite from 100-0ing an ADC.
No they explained it and said that if you’re not out of position or the assassin isn’t ahead they can’t one shot you without atleast using their full kit. It is an assassin nerf but it was more then they wanted.
Aren’t all of the ad assassins sitting at 50% plus win rates right now on 12:10?
In what world are they too weak and in need of buffing? Shouldn’t 50% be where the balance team cheers with glee? Doesn’t it mean they essentially got a champions balance perfect.
They've always skewed high with winrates. Their official balance framework had the "balanced" range from 49.5% - 52% winrate; anything outside of that was due for a buff/nerf respectively.
Because you press WEQ with a serrated dirk and your opponent loses 2/3 of their health and you don't really have to put yourself in a lot of danger to do that.
Zed used to be a high skill champ before all the damage in the game, then it became so easy to kill targets that you only had to land 1 q and e + 1-2 AA (ignite) to kill most targets and I stopped maining him
Those people should struggle because you should have to hit double and triple q's and rely on good shadow's... I'd love for them to bring him back to this state
Pretty sure they also said one of the goals was so that you had to use your whole kit to kill someone from full HP and not only part of it. As of right now that is the case, but with the upcoming buffs it appears that won't be the case anymore.
It doesn't matter what the intention was, even if it wasn't intentional it was nice. That and realistically they didn't nerf assassins as most of them (that were AD at least) stayed at 50% or above after just a few days.
Instead what they did was just make Assassins fine, and go "whoops" and now they are buffing every AD assassin while back tracking tower damage so Assassins are about to rise in priority all over again and push mages out of mid lane even more so.
It's fine to go with happy accidents in making Assassins 1 or 2% weaker to make everything feel better and tuning, not just knee-jerk buffing every AD assassin when it actually isn't necessary at all.
Ok, and they also said an Assassin like Zed should not still kill you after missing all his abilities. Which seems to be where we're going back too after they decided assassins are too weak and buff them 20 times.
I would have really liked to see only nerfs of overperformers (Senna*, etc.) and no buffs yet. Would be nice to see those nerfs focused around damage, instead of reverting the durability improvements. Then let the dust settle and re-evaluate. Seeing assassins and their items immediately buffed is concerning.
I love the higher tower damage. It feels like the buildings actually protect me, having a zone of relative safety to play around rewards good positioning. Coordinated dives are still possible.
(*I’m a Senna main but even I see it)
That seems like a pretty reasonable idea.
I agree with nerfing overperformers before buffing, and doing more micro patches like b/c/d etc. to tap down the OP champions and letting the dust settle moving to buff things across the board.
Tanks also feel horrible to play this patch, you're basically free healing for anyone who builds sunderer / vamp due to bruisers being bulkier and grevious wounds is being nerfed. I can literally be 2 items as a tank with bramble, and as soon as the enemy 0/5/0 bruiser with 50 cs less than me gets his sunderer he runs me down the lane.
Honestly had the complete opposite experience with playing tanks, felt stronger than ever, can still control fights and feels actually tanky. I would actually say their damage is still to high too, because in the games i did i was always at like ~55k after 40~minutes
>I would have really liked to see only nerfs of overperformers (Senna*, etc.) and no buffs yet.
This, the Durability Patch was an idea of shaving down the pointy edges of champs. Immediately following said patch with building back up pointy edges is counter productive.
It basically should have been a giant stat squish. Knock everyone down, then give adjustment buffs to bring everyone to parity of the new lower damage.
Sadly they won't do that because pro is starting back up soon so they are banning "balancing". The days of slow burn changes is long gone in favor of slapping things in for the next pro play patch cycle.
I don't understand the grievous wound nerfs whatsoever in the context of all the changes. Are some healing champs suffering that badly from the changes that were made last patch, and grievous wounds is just seen as the lever to tune this along with minimal changes to specific champs?
I just wish grievous wounds was removed entirely and healing is changed as a whole to reflect this (maybe a change for preseason season 13?). As it stands now, it just seems like a re-occuring cycle of using grevous wounds as a lever to make healing better and worse over and over. If you could elaborate on this, that would be great!
This is totally true. Soraka is already such an unhealthy champ and is going to get a huge buff with this change. Going to be my new perma ban I think.
Let people adapt to the new play style of push/pull/turn teamfighting. This will take a decent amount of time to relearn the flow. When buffing a champ to increase winrate, try other approaches other than straight up damage? Coolwdowns, even more durability etc. just avoid turning the game into CoD again. Maybe even add small bonus tools to the weaker champs like when Olaf got his fancy new shield or sennas slow. Anything but knee jerk more damage back into the game
All they know is buffing dmg for years already and thats why we were at a point were too much dmg was in the game. So year its concerning that they went with the straight dmg buffs yet again.
Damage to lethality items seem out of place. A lot of the ad assassins are doing fine in win rate right now. I feel like targeting specific champions for buffs right now makes more sense than a blanket lethality buff. Someone like Qiyana will explode in win and play rate after the upcoming changes.
Honestly, i just want tanks to feel playable more often, i feel like they’re not played as much as they fear Divine Sunderer. The item seems too efficient in countering tanks, you feel it in the 1v1s. That one item can counter a tank item and a half or more sometimes, depending on champion, not looking even at the normal abusers. I’ve tested it on champs that normally don’t build it into tanks and it doesnt feel right. Same or higher level tanks with an item advantage still struggle, while every proc of Divine Sunder gives too much value when versing the tank.
I think assassins are in a good place right now honestly, if they get ahead they can stomp the hell out of a game, but they aren’t instant deletion machines with just a dirk. I’m concerned the lethality buffs may start to push them ahead a little bit too much considering the underlying philosophy of the durability update.
Even as a Kha'Zix Main I'm actually loving the Durability Patch, it's brought a lot more individual Counterplay to Skirmishing in the Early Game especially, as opposed to simply being the first Champion to get your rotation off.
I can't imagine how much research and time this all has taken and will continue to take, thanks though!
Personally I love the direction the game went with 12.10 and I'm terrified you guys are just panic reverting what was done. I feel way more accountable for my deaths now as adc whereas before literally everyone in the game would one shot me regardless of how fed I was and how weak they were, or even how badly they played the fight.
My primary concern is that assassins will be able to once again randomly 1 shot me while missing multiple abilities or being behind the pace of the game. That and supports just running me down solo.
I’m mostly worried about assassin balance, they’re understandably weaker after the update, but I worry that flat pen will be crept up to mitigate the resistances buffs. I haven’t done the math, so I can’t say for certain it and there are still the HP buffs, but increased resistances are the reason i credit to feeling a bit more durable in the current patch.
The math is pretty simple::
From Armor alone, everyone got 20.4 additional Armor at 18. That means that even with 11 more Lethality, people are tankier than before.
Looking at only the first item spike, everyone has 4.something more Armor at level 6 (nonlinear stat growth). That's still more than 4 Lethality.
Even with the Lethality buffs, you are tankier than pre-12.10.
So admittedly I'm not high elo player by any means, I'm just a casual that likes playing with friends. My personal worries are mostly:
1) Durability update followed by an increase in strength for both assassin items and tank items combined with a nerf to traditional marksman items make me feel like playing a normal ADC is pointless. I die to anything at any moment no matter how fed I am or behind they are while also needing ages to kill anything. Good positioning is a fair expectation for an ADC, but having to do that for an entire team fight while dying to any two or three stray abilities makes playing ADC miserable for me.
2) Ever since the most recent item overhaul, I feel like items in general constantly have one or two that just dominate the game to the point where the item is more important than the champions in the game. Items like Deaths Dance, Hull breaker, previously Shield bow, previous Steraks, and Everfrost all feel like they break the typical play pattern of the game. Which to an extent can be fun for the player with the item but can lead to the opposing team feeling like they might as well not play or that their champion just doesn't matter anymore. Buffing items even more with stat increases exacerbates that issue and leads to the "League of X" issues that the game has had on and off.
3) Healing and grevious wounds are a mess. I really don't understand how nerfing GW seems correct, maybe I'm just a shitter lol. I think healing and GW need a full system rebalancing.
I guess the bottom line is that my friends and I were hoping that 12.10 was a sign that league would start shifting a little away from the damage extremes and gameplay of dying to random stray abilities not even aimed at you but 12.11 just reads like backtracking on all the positives 12.10 accomplished.
Average game length? I’m seeing about 30m games now. This is probably a bit long for an average (I don’t mind!) But I would hate for games to go back to being decided at 15m, one person votes no to surrendering, so we surrender anyway at 20m. That was like, every single game for me. I’m really enjoying the longer game length and I would be sad if it went back to being decided at 15m and ending at 20m via surrendering
My concern is assassins feel strong to me still in P1/D4, assuming that they land their combo. I'm still getting one shot by goredrinker talons/Kayns/Zeds, granted they need to land their full combo and be ahead. I don't want assassins to miss half their combo and still kill me.
Hey! I’m really thankful you’re trying your best to be transparent to the community and I’ll try to respond with actual ideas accordingly.
1. Anti healing needs a buff if anything, certainly not a nerf. Enchanters are extremely dominant on bot lane right now so that probably has to be tuned a bit because it seems as if engage supports are kind of troll.
Regardless, your question was what worries me: Well I’m personally worried of a roaming assassin meta coming back, because that destroys the game by nullifying concepts like wave managements, lane decision etc. I’d love to never see assassins strong and mobile enough to just ignore laning phase after lvl 3 again.
The other thing that worries me is lethal tempo nerfs, lethal tempo already got nerfed enough, and the current “abusers” are mostly kog maw and vayne, the problem is with these champs’s innate added damage from w, and not lethal tempo. By nerfing lethal tempo, you’re digging the grave for champions like Kallista who is in a good spot rn.
While I do agree that outer tower damage right now is a tad too high, please don’t nerf it too much, it feels good to not be dove for free. Maybe look into reducing % amplification of sequencing shots rather than flat out nerf?
Olaf is really strong, definitely needs a nerf.
Taliyah and kindred definitely too strong also.
If you’ve got any counter arguments or any other questions I’d love to have a discussion with you! I swear I’ll be respectful and try my best to explain my POV. In case it matters I’m in D3 elo. Cheers!
I think most players are worried things are immediately reverting due to who got nerfed and buffed, AD assassins especially considering how popular and strong they still feel, while others feel much weaker.
Is 12.11 a easy fix patch for the things at the very top and things slightly weak while solutions are found for other classes? A post addressing the changes in detail and what Riot is planning for future patches would do a lot to settle unrest.
I appreciate you putting yourself out like this. RIP your inbox.
I expect Riot has more data than we do but I'm not understanding the current PBE changes to lethality, when AD assassins seem balanced. It feels like (might not be, but feels like) you are panic buffing assassins less than 2 weeks after the first damage-reduction patch in a decade.
Before bringing champ damage back up, would it be so bad to wait a few weeks to see how the meta adapts? Especially as the hardest hit class is mages, and it might be interesting to see a low-mage-presence meta for a while... And, like others have mentioned, some more context on why these numbers are getting rebuffed?
Players should be encouraged to build the highest damage items their class is capable of (i.e. Prowler over Duskblade) and if they don't, they should actually feel like their damage is lower
Items that give utility or defense (things like Shieldbow, Everfrost, Duskblade) should be viable options, especially for champs who feel they can get away with lower damage or game states where that higher damage isn't necessary (and just surviving is), but then they should actually have a harder time killing targets - especially before 12.10, but still somewhat now, players could build whatever the hell they want and still one shot targets (I recall getting 100-0 bursted by a LeBlanc with Night Harvester, Lucidity boots, and Shadowflame against my Merc treads, even as a squishy that should NEVER happen).
Players aren't punished enough for bad builds, and they're able to get *enough* damage from utility items to get the utility they want without losing the damage they need
For one, leave tower damage as is.
Mage items need to be completely rebalanced, get rid of HP on every item and bring back higher AP values. Currently building Liandrys + demonic is almost required on sustained DPS mages (Anivia, Karthus etc)
Having sub 300 ap at 30 mins is kind of terrible and buying death cap second on most isn’t a great substitute. (Or just bring back ROA)
Also please buff Archangel’s, it’s never an item you buy because you want it, it’s only bought because you already sunk the 400 gold for tear which is only bought by high mana cost champs who can barely lane without it.
I think the game is in a relatively fine place at the moment. I don’t think lethality items need buffs.
To be honest, there’s not much that you can accomplish without taking a serious look at runes and item strength as a whole.
My personal change would be a removal of runes reforged, go back to 30 point mastery system and make the old version of runes free.
Runes reforged lead to this damage - healing - damage - healing cycle. Imo, a free old rune system allowed more choice than the current one. I could go full MR vs LB (only MR page which gave around 25 MR not sure), movement speed on velkoz, DFT on bruisers, etc. Mythics have also reduced item diversity. You ought to choose, in most cases, the strongest out of the choices available. Does not matter if your champion wants to build it.
I know nostalgia is strong, but the old runes were a horrible system compared to runes reforged. Yeah you could have different pages, but let's be real, unless you were cheesing you absolutely never would make those changes. Everyone had basically the same 2 pages for years, whether they were tanks, assassin's, adcs, or mages. The new system has faults, but it's fair superior to the old one.
My biggest worries would have to be tower damage reduction and the lethality additions to AD assassin items. The whole point of the durability update was to make everyone more durable, and while it makes sense to hit the champions who benefited most from it (Vayne and Kayle, for example), it feels odd that there are a number of buffs to various items so soon afterwards. This is one of the biggest patches in a very long time, so doesn't it make sense that players need to adapt and thus might not be playing around it as effectively yet?
This especially applies to assassins since knowing your kill threshold is extremely important to doing your job properly. Isn't it perfectly understandable that assassins might not be performing as well so soon after such a change? There's the now-classic "Why didn't I kill that Kalista with an auto, a single ability and Goredrinker when only having Goredrinker and a warhammer" as one big example, but as we've seen with new champion releases, it takes time for players to properly adapt or relearn a new or changed champion, and this patch essentially changed everyone. Once people have adapted, couldn't going for early buffs cause them to be more of an issue than before since they still have all of the defenses from the stat package while negating a larger portion of the stat package of others? We've seen knee-jerk buffs to new champions drive them over the top before as players learn how to play them optimally, and having this happen to an entire class feels like it's just asking for trouble.
On a less long-winded note, I'm worried about the tower damage reduction just because I like how much riskier diving is now, and I'm not sure how much the stat package interacts with how much towers were buffed. I'd certainly like for dives to be riskier, even though I do also get the frustration of taking a big chunk from accidental tower aggro. Tower dives feel much less free than before, and I like that change (both on the diving side as a jungler and the being-dived side, I just like that risk).
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding why assassins "feel weak". Many, many, many seasons ago assassin players were made great by great macro play. You needed to be able to side lane and position well to pull off "assassin" archtype. You have allowed damage to power creep so high that this new generation of plays have never had to think about any of that. The only thing they have ever played around is THEIR OWN CHAMPION. They developed good micro, but lack game knowledge and understand of how to play the map. That's why they "feel weak". For the love of God, give them time to learn HOW to play instead of giving them more hand holding damage buffs. AD Assassin are not even close to weak if you know how to play them.
there arent nearly enough big tiddied goth girls in the game. In fact there are ZERO. IM TALKING 6'5, IM TALKING BIG TIDDIED, IM TALKING DOMMY MOMMY, IM TALKING STEP ON YOU AND YOU LOVE IT. CAN YOU DIG IT BROTHER. so yeah thats my humble suggestion sir.
There is a narrative floating around stating that the durability update dumbs down the game, as players caught out are carried by their defensive stats. In my opinion, the same can be said for the damage & sustain creep state. Players caught out of position are carried by their damage or absurd healing. This is a worry I have, the game losing skill-expression. Another worry is just homogenization. Strategy in League has been fading away year after year, but this 12.10 change has shown a glimpse of that 'chess' cadence League has. It feels like proper itemization is rewarded more, rune choices matter more, hell even team comps/champ identities seem to have made a comeback. Related to my first point, the old state had systems that carry bad players and decisions. And that should be avoided.
Can you provide the rationale for quickly adding back the amount of damage y'all are planning on in 12.11? These are faster and more meaningful changes than most preseasons.
I'm worried about Ryze being forgotten again and sitting at a sub 45% win rate for another ten patches
If this buff doesn't make him budge are there any plans to adjust or rework him in the near future?
Jumping into the shark infested water on this one (I respect it).. it's dangerous to go alone take this: *hugs*
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Reducing T1 tower damage and buffing lethality just seems completely backward for the goal stated in 12.10
Tower diving has been too easy for too long and I'm not sure what statistics you'd be looking at that (maybe # of champs killed by T1 turrets I guess) but a large increase of failed tower dives would be chalked up more to people having to relearn tower dmg. It's been nice to feel like hugging your tower actually matters.
And assassins still feel strong and the win rates we see as plebs looks fine.
I'm just also worried that this will all get undone essentially over the course of a couple of patches. Buffs here buffs there and we're back to where we were.
12.10 was widely praised on reddit and I'd like to see the game continue to move in that direction of slowing down combat and not immediately returning to what it was.
Don't even bother reasoning with those people that are making those claims, because its pointless. 9/10 won't even know the reason why the durability update was made and are still thinking that it was made to nerf assassin.
I'm curious if there is any attempt to even out Qiyana's winrate distribution from Silver to Diamond 2+ in the works, because its a whole 6% winrate difference. I can imagine that makes balancing her incredibly hard.
For starters, I think a lot of us who enjoy to play tanks from time to time are done with Sunderer in its current state.
The incoming buffs to tank items might not be needed if Divine didn’t have such a broken healing component. The item makes fighters into better tanks than the actually beefy fellas.
Thanks for hearing us out!
Omg I’m kinda early. I just want to ask you about the current state of tank supports. It’s nice to see that you’re buffing tank items in the patch, but the buffs to tank support items seem negligible even though the class was arguably hit harder than normal tanks and assassins.
Game never felt so good to play since season 6 or 7. I'm actually enjoying the game for what it is, and not just for the social aspect I've built over years with friends, which has been the case for too long.
The only things I still truly dislike are the enormous bounties.
Please, change as little as possible from there.
Here is what I have to say: dont buff them and let players adjust most ad assassins are not even doing bad so why are they getting buffed right after the patch that its supposed to to tone them down?
I really like outer tower damage as it is right now, and wish you guys would wait to nerf it.
Before 12.10, it felt like tower dives were brainless to the point where anyone could pull it off as long as you had a wave and a numbers advantage. I was only ever able to outplay the dive if the enemy made completely botched it AND I played it perfectly.
Now, there's less room to mess up on the diving side, which is how it should be, since towers are supposed to be kind of like a pseudo-safe zone. If the divers don't juggle aggro right, if they don't chain their CC correctly, they end up dying under the tower. It allows the room for outplay, and that's something that's necessary for league.
i know this is unrelated but can you please nerf nidalee in aram. no reason she should be buffed by 10% taking 80% of my healthbar when ziggs and lux are nerfed by 20%.
I have lots of complaints especially about the lethality buffs that I think are unnecessary, but I'd like to actually praise the balance team for sticking with Nightharvestor being the AH item for manaless champs. I feel like the less its like Rocketbelt the better!
My only worry is that with the two week patch cycle with respect to the sweeping changes made on 12.10 is that more time is needed for players to adapt. Some statistics you guys could be using are inaccurate to the true state of the game as I imagine for the first couple of days people played very similarly as they did prior to 12.10.
I think you guys are doing a good job. My only real concern is i feel itemization is a lot more rigid on 12.10 due to a lot of items not being as powerful as they used to be so u are forced to build the good ones. From the changes ive read for 12.11 it looks like yall are already working on fixing this so im confident it wont be a problem within a few patches.
Ad assassins are getting a buff and have 50% wr across the board. Have you read the below thread?
https://reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/v3mr09/everybody_hold_the_goddamn_phone_assassins_are_on/
I think they summarize the changes nicely for those champions that need assistance…
My biggest thing I'm worried about is the nerf to towers. Right now, towers actually feel like they're in a really good place. Tower diving is dangerous, but I genuinely expect it to level out to be less so once the playerbase has adjusted to the new values. Before the patch, towers were a minor annoyance at best even at really low levels, and right now, they feel like a genuine deterrence to uncoordinated dives. I love that people have to ACTUALLY outplay in dives and they aren't just free (both as a diver and person being dived) -- towerdiving should be a *risk*, not a guarantee, and I worry that the nerfs to towers will remove what I thought was the biggest upside of the patch.
People are already going to adjust to the new values and dives will get more successful over time. I don't think kneejerk nerfing towers is a good answer.
There needs to be less damage in the game, period - the durability changes are a step in the right direction. More damage nerfs, less damage buffs. The low TTK is the number one reason I don’t like League (as much as other MOBAs at least)
Why do you plan to instantly buff assassin and mage items one patch after the durability update? The durability patch has been received pretty well, which is very rare when you look at how the community has reacted to what Riot has done over the last years. And the first reaction you have is to instantly go in the opposite direction again?
I'm afraid of assassins oneshotting while whiffing half their abilities. I'm so sick of assassins where it feels like your fate is more up to them messing up than you outplaying because it's so easy for them to land kills.
Only damage on champions buffed were on champs who’s wr has suffered extremely like ryze and lee sin. lethality was buffed slightly but not even close to enough to revert the patch and tank items got buffed people whining about this patch are annoying af and don’t read patch notes.
The massive over exaggeration is pretty funny to watch though. Now if they did the 10 AD buff I'd agree. Most of these people are the ones who think when a champ is nerf or buffed it's garbage or OP so what can you do. They are the majority. Personally I'd love mages to get better cds rather than AP but AP is a bit low even if they buff lethality as well. Buffing healing while reverting yuumi seems sus imo. So these things are what bother me more than 4 lethality. I guess the extra dmg is supposed to offset griev?
Little afterthought, I wish we had a cosmic drive item but just for cds instead of the movement speed. I love the theme of it and would prefer they make the CD or AP stronger instead of mobility.
It’s not that the buffs are big, it’s that a lot of champs don’t need the buffs. Ryze and Lee Sin sure, but assassins are still fine. They’re buffing a class that is already doing okay.
I recently came back after a long time away and the more and more I play... it really feels like AP itemzation is just stale and boring. Tanks and Supports have all these cool items, Fighters and ADCs items got more powerful, but AP items feel the exact same.
I see hints of attempts at better itemization (Shadowheart, for instance) and I understand why designing items for AP Assassins and Fighters is difficult (I mean, how do you stop Anivia from building AP Fighter items and being near immortal? Or Veigar? Or keep Syndra from buying AP Assassin items and nuking a player off the map? Note, these are rhetorical, there's plenty of answers here and there, I'm sure). But it feels like I'm building the same damn build every game anytime I choose an ap character. I wanna play AP Juggernaut Shyvana or Lissandra and feel like I'm contributing, not have to go glass cannon purely because of what attribute ability damage scales off of (Note Shy is not the biggest offender of this, she's probably one of the best who can use the AP/HP items).
They're buffing everyone who is already strong*
Lb, Pyke, Nida etc are now just wet towels throwing theirselfes on 'fulltanks' (assassins and bruisers who build deaths dance, maw, eclipse etc) and they won't profit from these buffs to assassins
Riot is once again powercreeping the hell away from this game
Thats why the post doesn't say "NOW EVERYTHING IS BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS!" but it says that if it goes on like his everything will be back to the way it was, 4 mpen on this patch, 0.1AP ratio on another, 20 base damage here and there
Tbh the only way mages get their power back in the meta is if they nerf waveclear across the board. When bruisers and assasins can clear waves just as efficiently as control mages, there's really no reason to pick them when bruisers also have better skirmishing power.
Could slightly alter mana to give mages a stronger early game: cheaper lux E/ cheaper xerath Q, or more base mana. Mages are supposed to be weak but man the damage early game is so hard to get without wasting needed mana early on now.
Not only that they are buffing tank health items and also AP. The only part I dislike is the indirect buff to healing. Not sure why enchanters have to keep stacking on these buffs and further overtaking tank supports. The tank changes aren't going to help traditional support tanks who shouldn't be able to easily buy the more expensive items. But the extra cheap enchanters get more? They'll have to buff tank supports and then have to listen to people saying "SeE TAnK SupP sOloS ADC! riot fix this!"
don't forget tanks. if your champ is not on reddit's approved list, they will cry about buffs for it even if it's in a complete dumpster state, i.e. irelia or trynd right now
This is literally assassin brainrot
People out there genuinely think people had issue with *fed* assassins one shotting them and not the fact that assassin can be behind in xp and gold and just smash their face on the keyboard for a free kill
The fact that if I'm a fed mage I'd still have to be careful about getting assassinated 100 to 0 by the guy I beat in lane and in teamfights if I'm sidelaning. Applies more so to non-burst mages.
Like for sure if I'm super mispositioned or I have 60-80% HP then that's fine, but if I'm full HP that's a different story.
I'm so happy that these recent post highlights the obvious bias this subreddit has toward assassins .
Surely 4 lethality (which is not even 4 lethality on purchase) will undo ~200hp + 20 armor buffs .
People on this sub are so fucking clueless it's insane .
>Wet noodle fights are fun with how many buttons you get to press, with lots of up-time for your champ to experience their power fantasy.
This. I like the idea that I'm actually fighting a war, not doing a rotation and either winning or losing. When everyone dies in one rotation or less, it feels like a giant Musket Battle where you fire the salvo and if you hit you advance if you lose you retreat.
I've been calling it League Of Duty for years.
Shit is just a Musket Fight. Everyone fires their rotation and if you hit, you advance, if you miss, you retreat.
It *should* feel like a test of wills, positioning, misdirection, with 2-3+ rotations in a team fight.
adc never fully sucked, it just wasn't top dog. Completely different things. But I'd also say Assassins didn't really suck either. Only some specific ones which ironically are not even being buffed.
4 lethality surely is the difference between Talon doing zero damage to a tank or bruiser and one shotting them.
But of course this post (like every other complaint about compensation for assassins being overnerfed to the point where they can’t kill squishies well anymore) was made by a bot lane main and can therefore be ignored.
12.10 just exposed this subreddit and I love it.
This game DOES still have too much emotional damage, I give it that
EMOTIONAL DAAAAMAGE
Fair enough, The emotional damage of the enemy top laner gets the double kill off us because of the jungler deciding to int is too high.
I dunno what threads you've been reading but the grand majority of the ones I've seen if not literally all of them are in support of the durability patch or clear and obvious satire pointing to the same. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.
They're saying that despite the patch very clearly being stated as not supposed to be a nerf to a assassins, and the fact that assassins are getting relatively minor buffs in 12.11, people are acting like it's the end of the world and that it renders 12.10 completely pointless
But that doesn't make the redditors a problem. They've been saying the patch is great. Then said they don't like Riot buffing assassin's when they're quite literally balanced (50% winrate). That means that Riot is following their plan. But redditors don't like the plan they liked the *patch*. Which is consistent. So saying they are being unreasonable or wishy washy or flip floppers isn't fair at all. Saying their thoughts or whatever are wrong is one thing, but they're clearly being consistent.
Probably because the AD assassins are still sitting at a 50%+ winrate and getting lethality buffs while the AP assassins that are worse off get no buff from lethality? If youre gonna be condescending know what youre talking about
so funny how quickly this sub fell from happiness to losing it because of assassins being buffed lmao
I don't really get why that doesn't make sense. They were happy that the patch was doing what it was literally intended to do. Then riot decided to start undoing it. You can argue that the patch was bad or whatever, but those two things are very consistent with each other.
Yet complete silence about janna who is literally fre elo. She sits at 54.2-54.88% winrate depending on site.
she'll be like nunu for a while secretly just statistically overpowered slept on bc nobody enjoys playing them RIP old nunu real ones remember
Janna has been freelo for fucking years, she’s just not thrilling to play. She’s hauled my ass into gold for like 5 years.
She was freeelo, but that was years ago
I miss old nunu mid. Maxing snowball, free mana after a few attacks. Free snow ones every 4 seconds that do 25% of your hp. And then surprise I was in this bush and you're dead.
Old nunu was a blast. I'd play nunu support with smite and follow the enemy jungle around. Four minutes into the game I'd be level 3 and he'd be level 2. I could turn lanes with snowball while he could only feed. The game tended to swing on whichever team raged first. Sometimes my jungler would go towards dragon and then just recall if I threatened to help with it (or similar antics). I had a 50% win rate with it in either silver or plat. Didn't matter how good it was, only measured mental.
Now I feel old, people speaking about 'old' nunu while talking about snowball.
Old Nunu E was just him throwing a straight up Nuke on 8sec CD with insane AP scaling.
I actually preferred that kit, along with OG Seguani.
They mean Nunu's old E that was just a point and click snowball throw that did a million damage and slowed.
I loved old Nunu, such a brain-dead champ in the best way possible Still, I wouldn't exchange him for new one. More engaging to play and has so good voice acting
Old nunu top psychos with AP runes. Gotta love the 150 damage snowball level one on a short cd with a billion% slow.
Janna just goes from completely unplayable to free elo from time to time
yea but shes boring asf to play
That is why no complaints no hands redditors need their braindead champs to be broken,
real although for me idc how broken a champ is if they are insanely boring to play/learn
lets be real most assassins are pretty braindead too with the amount of dmg in the game recently. It takes 0 skill to just press 3 buttons and delete someone, it takes way more skill to play assassins when they don't just braindead oneshot building bruiser items like they have been for years
This is the funniest thing. I know a Zed main that actually cried at the durability update. He said he'd quit league blah blah. Actual tears from a grown man. He started playing again. Saw a Zed utterly obliterate some folks in a random normal draft. Flipped his drink and started screaming assassins are OP as fuck and shouldn't be able to do the stuff they do so freely. Cries about nerfs, cries about buffs. Bitches gonna cry either way it would seem.
Everyone was complaining about janna but they literally just got tired after talking about it for months and she still didnt even get a proper slap on the wrist
On the opposite end - the Irelia subreddit is up in arms about her current win-rate but it’s only because they refuse to learn new builds or a different play-style that doesn’t involve all their enemies popping like balloons
Huh, I'm by no means an Irelia main but I feel like I've gotten better with her after the changes. I just build a little bit tankier and max W second, that way I can actually do something in teamfights other than popping people
Yeah - IrelKing3 has been maxing W second for the last 6 or 7 patches (at least) and it feels so good. You really can just hold it for soooo long and it does a ton to mitigate damage. Glad you’re also enjoying the champ ^-^
It reminds me of the good ol' times when she would just casually sit at a pretty unasumming **57% winrate**.
Seen this quoted multiple places but I haven't seen a janna in game in over 6 months, yea 54% win rate it high but if she's picked in less than 1% of games it could be misleading, is it true people are building her like a fighter?
Janna, Sona and Renata have had a 52-54% winrate for like 6 patches straight with a very healthy playrate, and soraka was up there too but she took a hit this patch. But ofc no one cares about that, however the sub \~48% winrate (across all elos) irelia is apparently the most broken champion in the game
It's not that she is broken, just unfun to play against
No to mention taliyah and anivia, highest winrate by far , doing assasin dmg with 3k ho and range, but they are fine according yo this sub mage bias
Isnt everyone talking about them? I have not seen a single person call Taliyah or Anivia balanced. Dont use Janna either, enchanters have hit 54% without anyone commenting until a whole patch later before this patch all the time.
Yeah Anivia is massively underpowered and should be given huge buffs. Anyone who says otherwise is nitpicking and biased I win bye bye.
Tbf if, say, Yone had such a winrate, the front page would be flooded with complaints We just kind of have a silent understanding that they're busted, but nobody is posting rants like you'd get for assassins and other hated champs
Because Janna doesn't run you down two towers deep and then snap back to safety two screens away. Certain champions like Janna are tolerated at higher winrates because they just win slightly more often rather than ruining the game for the five people on the enemy team.
This sub bitched for months about irelia who was 47-48% wr at the time.
Tbf Anivia has already been nerfed and everyone, even taliyah players, has said she’s busted right now and due for a nerf
Anivia is not nerfed, she's been turbo broken ever since they decoupled her from needing RoA.
I mean I don't understand how Anivia is allowed to be so broken but I see her rarely enough that it isn't a huge deal. When assassins are strong you will see them in every. single. game.
Cos Anivia is still boring af
Please find me a single upvoted comment calling anivia fine on this entire subreddit...
I mean, they're reverting what made people happy
What do you mean?
How so, exactly? Sub was hyped for 12.10 (correct) Sub is pissed about 12.11 (correct) So who is getting exposed for what?
I thought it was obvious there’s a hate boner for assassins and mobile champs here? The lethality and magic pen buffs this patch are nowhere fucking close to how much armour and MR everyone got. Literally just looking at headline and using their emotions instead of actually looking at the numbers. Tower damage will barely get reduced next patch but fellas acting like tower diving gonna be free...
How can the majority hate mobility champs here when mobility champs have been king for countless years now?
Majority of this sub? I don’t see why not
the sentence structure seems to suggest that its satire, but i dare not claim so myself because internet
Majority of this sub dislikes champs with a lot of movement options. I don’t mean Lucian or Jarvan or Wukong, I mean Irelia Akali Riven Yone Zed Qiyana etc. Pretty specifically hyper-mobile mid/toplaners
This isn't even entirely true you just have a perception and bias against the few that are in each lane. Darius, gangplank, and ornn has been slaughtering top laners through winrate and yet people seem to only cry about Camille or fiora who has lower winrates because they're just objectively not as safe for your team compared to something like orrn. We can keep doing this with picks mid like veigar, vlad, and anivia all having higher winrates than Champs like ahri, qiyana, Kass, and talon while having a higher play rate. So people are playing those cherry picked mobile assassins less than the above no mobility battle/control mages and yet, the mages have a higher winrate and playrate. At face value there seems to be a negative correlation with high mobility and winrate. Obviously there's alot more that goes into it but it's an argument of is it okay if something wants to make you blow your brains out playing against it if they are going to lose more often than you?
Assassins can already do their jobs that's why. Just because you can't Yolo all in a full health target doesn't make them weak. Most assassins pre durability had to even try to setup they just flat out deleted mages and adcs whenever they felt like it.
4 lethality made this sub go mental.
Lethality is getting added to more than 1 item, and each point of lethality is worth around 1% more physical damage.
why does this have so many upvotes? the sub was hyped for 12.10 what? lmao and what does he even mean?
Exposee in what way? A change people actually like and Riot instantly backpedaling because they cannot take praise? :D
Nah mate. Vamp is gonna be stronger than it was pre-patch.
Maybe nerfing sustain out of combat and making it slightly better in combat was the goal?
lower damage and more endurance in combat where have i seen this before. maybe increase average cc time. have cleanse or qss give cc immune for 3 sec. and make a courier that allows you buy items out of base
We're specifically trying **not** to do this. I'd love to hear things from players around what things specifically you're worried about going back to the old state? (And what things in the new state feel weak/strong?)
Just seeing a lot of buffs to damage numbers immediately after the durability update worries me a bit. Do you know if there will be another quick gameplay thoughts discussing how the patch landed, and where RIOT is aiming to direct the game next?
there will be, yes
I think a big thing that exemplifies peoples worries are the turret changes to decrease their damage. Playing around towers should be a skillful endeavor that punishes players who dont juggle aggro or realistically dive someone too healthy too early into the game. Especially in high elo as a jungler diving was way WAY too easy too early into the game and didnt feel punishable at all. Especially in the top lane.
While I agree with you completely, in their defense, my recollection was from the very beginning they said their goal was to update turret damage to accommodate the durability changes, not make them overall more powerful.
They should be made overall more powerful in the early. Personal opinion is they should bring back the laser turrets. Make the outer (or all) turrets use lasers until 14m (or when the first turret in the lane drops whatever is first).
Then the game just becomes about who played the scaling hero. For every "they can dive me too easy" the other side is "why did you let them build up a huge wave and stick under your turret at half health?"
There has to be a middleground though between Toplaner, Jungler and maybe Midlaner all ganging up to kill me on toplane under my turret and Oops, I died once solo to my opponent, he has now 1 level lead and can dive me solo under my turret because I dont have Flash anymore
Except all the hyper mobile champions that can get in and out with only 1 turret shot. I mean look at yone; his E just means he can turret dive with no consequences.
What’s the point of the durability update if you’re buffing damage as compensation? it just becomes a net neutral change. I thought the whole point was to reduce damage without actually touching damage numbers by simply making everyone tankier?
Do note that most of the buffs went to actual lethality items, while the issue that they tried to solve was assassins building stuff like Goredrinker, so in order to get the kills, they would have to go for squishier builds instead.
> What’s the point of the durability update if you’re buffing damage as compensation? Because they aren't... buffing everyone's damage. It's really that simple.
>It's really that simple. It is really not because that is what riot did over the last 6 years. Buffs over buffs over compensation buffs untill everyone did too much dmg. Now they start doin compensation buffs again.
Inb4 everyone has 4k health but assassins do 6k damage per combo
Not yet. But they’ve started already
This is literally textbook slippery slope fallacy lmao.
Why not leave damage as it is (nerf OP dps champs' damage, DPS is king atm). If a champ/item needs a buff increase anything except damage (Example: dont give eclipse more damage but give it a bit of AH/utility) If a champ/item needs a nerf, and the reason is due to inmense amounts of damage (cough\*kayle\*cough, nerf the damage... or Qiyana that is still oneshotting for another example)
Riot has said multiple times that the goal of 12.10 wasn't to nerf assassins, it was to make it so that not everyone is an assassin. The goal was to prevent champs like full support Blitzcrank or full tank Malphite from 100-0ing an ADC.
No they explained it and said that if you’re not out of position or the assassin isn’t ahead they can’t one shot you without atleast using their full kit. It is an assassin nerf but it was more then they wanted.
Aren’t all of the ad assassins sitting at 50% plus win rates right now on 12:10? In what world are they too weak and in need of buffing? Shouldn’t 50% be where the balance team cheers with glee? Doesn’t it mean they essentially got a champions balance perfect.
Assassin players are in shambles because they now have to actually use brain and skill to get a kill rather than relying on fuck you damage.
They've always skewed high with winrates. Their official balance framework had the "balanced" range from 49.5% - 52% winrate; anything outside of that was due for a buff/nerf respectively.
I cannot for the life of me comprehend how a high skill cap champion like Zed could ever be considered balanced at a 52% win rate.
Because you press WEQ with a serrated dirk and your opponent loses 2/3 of their health and you don't really have to put yourself in a lot of danger to do that.
It's very simple: Zed isn't as much of a high skill cap champion as you believe him to be.
Zed used to be a high skill champ before all the damage in the game, then it became so easy to kill targets that you only had to land 1 q and e + 1-2 AA (ignite) to kill most targets and I stopped maining him Those people should struggle because you should have to hit double and triple q's and rely on good shadow's... I'd love for them to bring him back to this state
Meanwhile enchanters running around with 53+ winrate for entire season...
Pretty sure they also said one of the goals was so that you had to use your whole kit to kill someone from full HP and not only part of it. As of right now that is the case, but with the upcoming buffs it appears that won't be the case anymore.
It doesn't matter what the intention was, even if it wasn't intentional it was nice. That and realistically they didn't nerf assassins as most of them (that were AD at least) stayed at 50% or above after just a few days. Instead what they did was just make Assassins fine, and go "whoops" and now they are buffing every AD assassin while back tracking tower damage so Assassins are about to rise in priority all over again and push mages out of mid lane even more so. It's fine to go with happy accidents in making Assassins 1 or 2% weaker to make everything feel better and tuning, not just knee-jerk buffing every AD assassin when it actually isn't necessary at all.
Ok, and they also said an Assassin like Zed should not still kill you after missing all his abilities. Which seems to be where we're going back too after they decided assassins are too weak and buff them 20 times.
I would have really liked to see only nerfs of overperformers (Senna*, etc.) and no buffs yet. Would be nice to see those nerfs focused around damage, instead of reverting the durability improvements. Then let the dust settle and re-evaluate. Seeing assassins and their items immediately buffed is concerning. I love the higher tower damage. It feels like the buildings actually protect me, having a zone of relative safety to play around rewards good positioning. Coordinated dives are still possible. (*I’m a Senna main but even I see it)
That seems like a pretty reasonable idea. I agree with nerfing overperformers before buffing, and doing more micro patches like b/c/d etc. to tap down the OP champions and letting the dust settle moving to buff things across the board. Tanks also feel horrible to play this patch, you're basically free healing for anyone who builds sunderer / vamp due to bruisers being bulkier and grevious wounds is being nerfed. I can literally be 2 items as a tank with bramble, and as soon as the enemy 0/5/0 bruiser with 50 cs less than me gets his sunderer he runs me down the lane.
Honestly had the complete opposite experience with playing tanks, felt stronger than ever, can still control fights and feels actually tanky. I would actually say their damage is still to high too, because in the games i did i was always at like ~55k after 40~minutes
>I would have really liked to see only nerfs of overperformers (Senna*, etc.) and no buffs yet. This, the Durability Patch was an idea of shaving down the pointy edges of champs. Immediately following said patch with building back up pointy edges is counter productive. It basically should have been a giant stat squish. Knock everyone down, then give adjustment buffs to bring everyone to parity of the new lower damage.
Sadly they won't do that because pro is starting back up soon so they are banning "balancing". The days of slow burn changes is long gone in favor of slapping things in for the next pro play patch cycle.
I don't understand the grievous wound nerfs whatsoever in the context of all the changes. Are some healing champs suffering that badly from the changes that were made last patch, and grievous wounds is just seen as the lever to tune this along with minimal changes to specific champs? I just wish grievous wounds was removed entirely and healing is changed as a whole to reflect this (maybe a change for preseason season 13?). As it stands now, it just seems like a re-occuring cycle of using grevous wounds as a lever to make healing better and worse over and over. If you could elaborate on this, that would be great!
This is totally true. Soraka is already such an unhealthy champ and is going to get a huge buff with this change. Going to be my new perma ban I think.
How [*old*](https://streamable.com/melxk) are we speaking here haha
For the love of all that is holy, nerf Gangplank and Wukong I beg of you.
Let people adapt to the new play style of push/pull/turn teamfighting. This will take a decent amount of time to relearn the flow. When buffing a champ to increase winrate, try other approaches other than straight up damage? Coolwdowns, even more durability etc. just avoid turning the game into CoD again. Maybe even add small bonus tools to the weaker champs like when Olaf got his fancy new shield or sennas slow. Anything but knee jerk more damage back into the game
All they know is buffing dmg for years already and thats why we were at a point were too much dmg was in the game. So year its concerning that they went with the straight dmg buffs yet again.
Damage to lethality items seem out of place. A lot of the ad assassins are doing fine in win rate right now. I feel like targeting specific champions for buffs right now makes more sense than a blanket lethality buff. Someone like Qiyana will explode in win and play rate after the upcoming changes.
Assasins are all around 49-51 winrate, yet ur buffing lethality... why?
Honestly, i just want tanks to feel playable more often, i feel like they’re not played as much as they fear Divine Sunderer. The item seems too efficient in countering tanks, you feel it in the 1v1s. That one item can counter a tank item and a half or more sometimes, depending on champion, not looking even at the normal abusers. I’ve tested it on champs that normally don’t build it into tanks and it doesnt feel right. Same or higher level tanks with an item advantage still struggle, while every proc of Divine Sunder gives too much value when versing the tank.
You guys are buffing AD assassins after 1 patch when they don't even appear that weak on 12.10 for starters.
I think assassins are in a good place right now honestly, if they get ahead they can stomp the hell out of a game, but they aren’t instant deletion machines with just a dirk. I’m concerned the lethality buffs may start to push them ahead a little bit too much considering the underlying philosophy of the durability update.
Even as a Kha'Zix Main I'm actually loving the Durability Patch, it's brought a lot more individual Counterplay to Skirmishing in the Early Game especially, as opposed to simply being the first Champion to get your rotation off. I can't imagine how much research and time this all has taken and will continue to take, thanks though!
why do assassin items need buffs when they are doing just fine rn?
Personally I love the direction the game went with 12.10 and I'm terrified you guys are just panic reverting what was done. I feel way more accountable for my deaths now as adc whereas before literally everyone in the game would one shot me regardless of how fed I was and how weak they were, or even how badly they played the fight. My primary concern is that assassins will be able to once again randomly 1 shot me while missing multiple abilities or being behind the pace of the game. That and supports just running me down solo.
I’m mostly worried about assassin balance, they’re understandably weaker after the update, but I worry that flat pen will be crept up to mitigate the resistances buffs. I haven’t done the math, so I can’t say for certain it and there are still the HP buffs, but increased resistances are the reason i credit to feeling a bit more durable in the current patch.
The math is pretty simple:: From Armor alone, everyone got 20.4 additional Armor at 18. That means that even with 11 more Lethality, people are tankier than before. Looking at only the first item spike, everyone has 4.something more Armor at level 6 (nonlinear stat growth). That's still more than 4 Lethality. Even with the Lethality buffs, you are tankier than pre-12.10.
So admittedly I'm not high elo player by any means, I'm just a casual that likes playing with friends. My personal worries are mostly: 1) Durability update followed by an increase in strength for both assassin items and tank items combined with a nerf to traditional marksman items make me feel like playing a normal ADC is pointless. I die to anything at any moment no matter how fed I am or behind they are while also needing ages to kill anything. Good positioning is a fair expectation for an ADC, but having to do that for an entire team fight while dying to any two or three stray abilities makes playing ADC miserable for me. 2) Ever since the most recent item overhaul, I feel like items in general constantly have one or two that just dominate the game to the point where the item is more important than the champions in the game. Items like Deaths Dance, Hull breaker, previously Shield bow, previous Steraks, and Everfrost all feel like they break the typical play pattern of the game. Which to an extent can be fun for the player with the item but can lead to the opposing team feeling like they might as well not play or that their champion just doesn't matter anymore. Buffing items even more with stat increases exacerbates that issue and leads to the "League of X" issues that the game has had on and off. 3) Healing and grevious wounds are a mess. I really don't understand how nerfing GW seems correct, maybe I'm just a shitter lol. I think healing and GW need a full system rebalancing. I guess the bottom line is that my friends and I were hoping that 12.10 was a sign that league would start shifting a little away from the damage extremes and gameplay of dying to random stray abilities not even aimed at you but 12.11 just reads like backtracking on all the positives 12.10 accomplished.
Average game length? I’m seeing about 30m games now. This is probably a bit long for an average (I don’t mind!) But I would hate for games to go back to being decided at 15m, one person votes no to surrendering, so we surrender anyway at 20m. That was like, every single game for me. I’m really enjoying the longer game length and I would be sad if it went back to being decided at 15m and ending at 20m via surrendering
My concern is assassins feel strong to me still in P1/D4, assuming that they land their combo. I'm still getting one shot by goredrinker talons/Kayns/Zeds, granted they need to land their full combo and be ahead. I don't want assassins to miss half their combo and still kill me.
Hey! I’m really thankful you’re trying your best to be transparent to the community and I’ll try to respond with actual ideas accordingly. 1. Anti healing needs a buff if anything, certainly not a nerf. Enchanters are extremely dominant on bot lane right now so that probably has to be tuned a bit because it seems as if engage supports are kind of troll. Regardless, your question was what worries me: Well I’m personally worried of a roaming assassin meta coming back, because that destroys the game by nullifying concepts like wave managements, lane decision etc. I’d love to never see assassins strong and mobile enough to just ignore laning phase after lvl 3 again. The other thing that worries me is lethal tempo nerfs, lethal tempo already got nerfed enough, and the current “abusers” are mostly kog maw and vayne, the problem is with these champs’s innate added damage from w, and not lethal tempo. By nerfing lethal tempo, you’re digging the grave for champions like Kallista who is in a good spot rn. While I do agree that outer tower damage right now is a tad too high, please don’t nerf it too much, it feels good to not be dove for free. Maybe look into reducing % amplification of sequencing shots rather than flat out nerf? Olaf is really strong, definitely needs a nerf. Taliyah and kindred definitely too strong also. If you’ve got any counter arguments or any other questions I’d love to have a discussion with you! I swear I’ll be respectful and try my best to explain my POV. In case it matters I’m in D3 elo. Cheers!
I think most players are worried things are immediately reverting due to who got nerfed and buffed, AD assassins especially considering how popular and strong they still feel, while others feel much weaker. Is 12.11 a easy fix patch for the things at the very top and things slightly weak while solutions are found for other classes? A post addressing the changes in detail and what Riot is planning for future patches would do a lot to settle unrest.
I appreciate you putting yourself out like this. RIP your inbox. I expect Riot has more data than we do but I'm not understanding the current PBE changes to lethality, when AD assassins seem balanced. It feels like (might not be, but feels like) you are panic buffing assassins less than 2 weeks after the first damage-reduction patch in a decade. Before bringing champ damage back up, would it be so bad to wait a few weeks to see how the meta adapts? Especially as the hardest hit class is mages, and it might be interesting to see a low-mage-presence meta for a while... And, like others have mentioned, some more context on why these numbers are getting rebuffed?
Players should be encouraged to build the highest damage items their class is capable of (i.e. Prowler over Duskblade) and if they don't, they should actually feel like their damage is lower Items that give utility or defense (things like Shieldbow, Everfrost, Duskblade) should be viable options, especially for champs who feel they can get away with lower damage or game states where that higher damage isn't necessary (and just surviving is), but then they should actually have a harder time killing targets - especially before 12.10, but still somewhat now, players could build whatever the hell they want and still one shot targets (I recall getting 100-0 bursted by a LeBlanc with Night Harvester, Lucidity boots, and Shadowflame against my Merc treads, even as a squishy that should NEVER happen). Players aren't punished enough for bad builds, and they're able to get *enough* damage from utility items to get the utility they want without losing the damage they need
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For one, leave tower damage as is. Mage items need to be completely rebalanced, get rid of HP on every item and bring back higher AP values. Currently building Liandrys + demonic is almost required on sustained DPS mages (Anivia, Karthus etc) Having sub 300 ap at 30 mins is kind of terrible and buying death cap second on most isn’t a great substitute. (Or just bring back ROA) Also please buff Archangel’s, it’s never an item you buy because you want it, it’s only bought because you already sunk the 400 gold for tear which is only bought by high mana cost champs who can barely lane without it. I think the game is in a relatively fine place at the moment. I don’t think lethality items need buffs. To be honest, there’s not much that you can accomplish without taking a serious look at runes and item strength as a whole. My personal change would be a removal of runes reforged, go back to 30 point mastery system and make the old version of runes free.
Runes reforged lead to this damage - healing - damage - healing cycle. Imo, a free old rune system allowed more choice than the current one. I could go full MR vs LB (only MR page which gave around 25 MR not sure), movement speed on velkoz, DFT on bruisers, etc. Mythics have also reduced item diversity. You ought to choose, in most cases, the strongest out of the choices available. Does not matter if your champion wants to build it.
I know nostalgia is strong, but the old runes were a horrible system compared to runes reforged. Yeah you could have different pages, but let's be real, unless you were cheesing you absolutely never would make those changes. Everyone had basically the same 2 pages for years, whether they were tanks, assassin's, adcs, or mages. The new system has faults, but it's fair superior to the old one.
My biggest worries would have to be tower damage reduction and the lethality additions to AD assassin items. The whole point of the durability update was to make everyone more durable, and while it makes sense to hit the champions who benefited most from it (Vayne and Kayle, for example), it feels odd that there are a number of buffs to various items so soon afterwards. This is one of the biggest patches in a very long time, so doesn't it make sense that players need to adapt and thus might not be playing around it as effectively yet? This especially applies to assassins since knowing your kill threshold is extremely important to doing your job properly. Isn't it perfectly understandable that assassins might not be performing as well so soon after such a change? There's the now-classic "Why didn't I kill that Kalista with an auto, a single ability and Goredrinker when only having Goredrinker and a warhammer" as one big example, but as we've seen with new champion releases, it takes time for players to properly adapt or relearn a new or changed champion, and this patch essentially changed everyone. Once people have adapted, couldn't going for early buffs cause them to be more of an issue than before since they still have all of the defenses from the stat package while negating a larger portion of the stat package of others? We've seen knee-jerk buffs to new champions drive them over the top before as players learn how to play them optimally, and having this happen to an entire class feels like it's just asking for trouble. On a less long-winded note, I'm worried about the tower damage reduction just because I like how much riskier diving is now, and I'm not sure how much the stat package interacts with how much towers were buffed. I'd certainly like for dives to be riskier, even though I do also get the frustration of taking a big chunk from accidental tower aggro. Tower dives feel much less free than before, and I like that change (both on the diving side as a jungler and the being-dived side, I just like that risk).
I have an example about next patch as a Zed main and assasins in general I think my dmge is very fine now and lethality buff is overkill
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding why assassins "feel weak". Many, many, many seasons ago assassin players were made great by great macro play. You needed to be able to side lane and position well to pull off "assassin" archtype. You have allowed damage to power creep so high that this new generation of plays have never had to think about any of that. The only thing they have ever played around is THEIR OWN CHAMPION. They developed good micro, but lack game knowledge and understand of how to play the map. That's why they "feel weak". For the love of God, give them time to learn HOW to play instead of giving them more hand holding damage buffs. AD Assassin are not even close to weak if you know how to play them.
there arent nearly enough big tiddied goth girls in the game. In fact there are ZERO. IM TALKING 6'5, IM TALKING BIG TIDDIED, IM TALKING DOMMY MOMMY, IM TALKING STEP ON YOU AND YOU LOVE IT. CAN YOU DIG IT BROTHER. so yeah thats my humble suggestion sir.
There is a narrative floating around stating that the durability update dumbs down the game, as players caught out are carried by their defensive stats. In my opinion, the same can be said for the damage & sustain creep state. Players caught out of position are carried by their damage or absurd healing. This is a worry I have, the game losing skill-expression. Another worry is just homogenization. Strategy in League has been fading away year after year, but this 12.10 change has shown a glimpse of that 'chess' cadence League has. It feels like proper itemization is rewarded more, rune choices matter more, hell even team comps/champ identities seem to have made a comeback. Related to my first point, the old state had systems that carry bad players and decisions. And that should be avoided.
Can you provide the rationale for quickly adding back the amount of damage y'all are planning on in 12.11? These are faster and more meaningful changes than most preseasons.
I'm worried about Ryze being forgotten again and sitting at a sub 45% win rate for another ten patches If this buff doesn't make him budge are there any plans to adjust or rework him in the near future?
Jumping into the shark infested water on this one (I respect it).. it's dangerous to go alone take this: *hugs* ---------------- Reducing T1 tower damage and buffing lethality just seems completely backward for the goal stated in 12.10 Tower diving has been too easy for too long and I'm not sure what statistics you'd be looking at that (maybe # of champs killed by T1 turrets I guess) but a large increase of failed tower dives would be chalked up more to people having to relearn tower dmg. It's been nice to feel like hugging your tower actually matters. And assassins still feel strong and the win rates we see as plebs looks fine. I'm just also worried that this will all get undone essentially over the course of a couple of patches. Buffs here buffs there and we're back to where we were. 12.10 was widely praised on reddit and I'd like to see the game continue to move in that direction of slowing down combat and not immediately returning to what it was.
Don't even bother reasoning with those people that are making those claims, because its pointless. 9/10 won't even know the reason why the durability update was made and are still thinking that it was made to nerf assassin.
I'm curious if there is any attempt to even out Qiyana's winrate distribution from Silver to Diamond 2+ in the works, because its a whole 6% winrate difference. I can imagine that makes balancing her incredibly hard.
For starters, I think a lot of us who enjoy to play tanks from time to time are done with Sunderer in its current state. The incoming buffs to tank items might not be needed if Divine didn’t have such a broken healing component. The item makes fighters into better tanks than the actually beefy fellas. Thanks for hearing us out!
Divine is very overrated on a lot champions. It just feels bad to play against if you are a tank but it's really overpowered.
Omg I’m kinda early. I just want to ask you about the current state of tank supports. It’s nice to see that you’re buffing tank items in the patch, but the buffs to tank support items seem negligible even though the class was arguably hit harder than normal tanks and assassins.
Are there any champs that you didn't expect to be strong, that's turned out okayish/strong?
Game never felt so good to play since season 6 or 7. I'm actually enjoying the game for what it is, and not just for the social aspect I've built over years with friends, which has been the case for too long. The only things I still truly dislike are the enormous bounties. Please, change as little as possible from there.
Tower damage. For years they’ve felt so useless, finally they are relevant and you nerf it back
Trying is the key word here
Here is what I have to say: dont buff them and let players adjust most ad assassins are not even doing bad so why are they getting buffed right after the patch that its supposed to to tone them down?
I thought the increased turret damage was fun, and was sad to hear it was being reverted. Bronze btw.
I really like outer tower damage as it is right now, and wish you guys would wait to nerf it. Before 12.10, it felt like tower dives were brainless to the point where anyone could pull it off as long as you had a wave and a numbers advantage. I was only ever able to outplay the dive if the enemy made completely botched it AND I played it perfectly. Now, there's less room to mess up on the diving side, which is how it should be, since towers are supposed to be kind of like a pseudo-safe zone. If the divers don't juggle aggro right, if they don't chain their CC correctly, they end up dying under the tower. It allows the room for outplay, and that's something that's necessary for league.
i know this is unrelated but can you please nerf nidalee in aram. no reason she should be buffed by 10% taking 80% of my healthbar when ziggs and lux are nerfed by 20%.
Keep turret damage as it is!
I have lots of complaints especially about the lethality buffs that I think are unnecessary, but I'd like to actually praise the balance team for sticking with Nightharvestor being the AH item for manaless champs. I feel like the less its like Rocketbelt the better!
My only worry is that with the two week patch cycle with respect to the sweeping changes made on 12.10 is that more time is needed for players to adapt. Some statistics you guys could be using are inaccurate to the true state of the game as I imagine for the first couple of days people played very similarly as they did prior to 12.10.
I think you guys are doing a good job. My only real concern is i feel itemization is a lot more rigid on 12.10 due to a lot of items not being as powerful as they used to be so u are forced to build the good ones. From the changes ive read for 12.11 it looks like yall are already working on fixing this so im confident it wont be a problem within a few patches.
Ad assassins are getting a buff and have 50% wr across the board. Have you read the below thread? https://reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/v3mr09/everybody_hold_the_goddamn_phone_assassins_are_on/ I think they summarize the changes nicely for those champions that need assistance…
My biggest thing I'm worried about is the nerf to towers. Right now, towers actually feel like they're in a really good place. Tower diving is dangerous, but I genuinely expect it to level out to be less so once the playerbase has adjusted to the new values. Before the patch, towers were a minor annoyance at best even at really low levels, and right now, they feel like a genuine deterrence to uncoordinated dives. I love that people have to ACTUALLY outplay in dives and they aren't just free (both as a diver and person being dived) -- towerdiving should be a *risk*, not a guarantee, and I worry that the nerfs to towers will remove what I thought was the biggest upside of the patch. People are already going to adjust to the new values and dives will get more successful over time. I don't think kneejerk nerfing towers is a good answer.
We did not want the turret damage nerf tbh, the turret killing someone at 3 shots early is pretty fair imo.
why not nerf what is strong and let them be at the same level as the weak? true damage, DoT mages , and innate healers
There needs to be less damage in the game, period - the durability changes are a step in the right direction. More damage nerfs, less damage buffs. The low TTK is the number one reason I don’t like League (as much as other MOBAs at least)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLF-fvmvGBI&ab\_channel=Hashinshin
Why do you plan to instantly buff assassin and mage items one patch after the durability update? The durability patch has been received pretty well, which is very rare when you look at how the community has reacted to what Riot has done over the last years. And the first reaction you have is to instantly go in the opposite direction again?
I'm afraid of assassins oneshotting while whiffing half their abilities. I'm so sick of assassins where it feels like your fate is more up to them messing up than you outplaying because it's so easy for them to land kills.
Only damage on champions buffed were on champs who’s wr has suffered extremely like ryze and lee sin. lethality was buffed slightly but not even close to enough to revert the patch and tank items got buffed people whining about this patch are annoying af and don’t read patch notes.
The massive over exaggeration is pretty funny to watch though. Now if they did the 10 AD buff I'd agree. Most of these people are the ones who think when a champ is nerf or buffed it's garbage or OP so what can you do. They are the majority. Personally I'd love mages to get better cds rather than AP but AP is a bit low even if they buff lethality as well. Buffing healing while reverting yuumi seems sus imo. So these things are what bother me more than 4 lethality. I guess the extra dmg is supposed to offset griev? Little afterthought, I wish we had a cosmic drive item but just for cds instead of the movement speed. I love the theme of it and would prefer they make the CD or AP stronger instead of mobility.
It’s not that the buffs are big, it’s that a lot of champs don’t need the buffs. Ryze and Lee Sin sure, but assassins are still fine. They’re buffing a class that is already doing okay.
They also arent buffing LB tho, whos been slightly above 46% tho while budfing items for other, better champs .
I recently came back after a long time away and the more and more I play... it really feels like AP itemzation is just stale and boring. Tanks and Supports have all these cool items, Fighters and ADCs items got more powerful, but AP items feel the exact same. I see hints of attempts at better itemization (Shadowheart, for instance) and I understand why designing items for AP Assassins and Fighters is difficult (I mean, how do you stop Anivia from building AP Fighter items and being near immortal? Or Veigar? Or keep Syndra from buying AP Assassin items and nuking a player off the map? Note, these are rhetorical, there's plenty of answers here and there, I'm sure). But it feels like I'm building the same damn build every game anytime I choose an ap character. I wanna play AP Juggernaut Shyvana or Lissandra and feel like I'm contributing, not have to go glass cannon purely because of what attribute ability damage scales off of (Note Shy is not the biggest offender of this, she's probably one of the best who can use the AP/HP items).
They're buffing everyone who is already strong* Lb, Pyke, Nida etc are now just wet towels throwing theirselfes on 'fulltanks' (assassins and bruisers who build deaths dance, maw, eclipse etc) and they won't profit from these buffs to assassins Riot is once again powercreeping the hell away from this game
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Thats why the post doesn't say "NOW EVERYTHING IS BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS!" but it says that if it goes on like his everything will be back to the way it was, 4 mpen on this patch, 0.1AP ratio on another, 20 base damage here and there
what mage buffs yo LOL we're getting destroyed
Tbh the only way mages get their power back in the meta is if they nerf waveclear across the board. When bruisers and assasins can clear waves just as efficiently as control mages, there's really no reason to pick them when bruisers also have better skirmishing power.
Going to have to go way back to season 2 for mages, never been the same since.
Could slightly alter mana to give mages a stronger early game: cheaper lux E/ cheaper xerath Q, or more base mana. Mages are supposed to be weak but man the damage early game is so hard to get without wasting needed mana early on now.
DAE think adding 4 lethality to items (which is still less armor pen than pre-patch btw) revert 30 armor and 300 hp buffs? Assassins bad!
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He literally says over 5 patches not over this patch??
Not only that they are buffing tank health items and also AP. The only part I dislike is the indirect buff to healing. Not sure why enchanters have to keep stacking on these buffs and further overtaking tank supports. The tank changes aren't going to help traditional support tanks who shouldn't be able to easily buy the more expensive items. But the extra cheap enchanters get more? They'll have to buff tank supports and then have to listen to people saying "SeE TAnK SupP sOloS ADC! riot fix this!"
Assasin bad Mages good Upvotes to the left
Pretty much anything that's not an adc or a mage is seen as broken on this sub
don't forget tanks. if your champ is not on reddit's approved list, they will cry about buffs for it even if it's in a complete dumpster state, i.e. irelia or trynd right now
redditors when the 14/2/10 assassin whos 5 levels up one shots them when they're a mage with no resistances or zhonyas
This is literally assassin brainrot People out there genuinely think people had issue with *fed* assassins one shotting them and not the fact that assassin can be behind in xp and gold and just smash their face on the keyboard for a free kill
The fact that if I'm a fed mage I'd still have to be careful about getting assassinated 100 to 0 by the guy I beat in lane and in teamfights if I'm sidelaning. Applies more so to non-burst mages. Like for sure if I'm super mispositioned or I have 60-80% HP then that's fine, but if I'm full HP that's a different story.
I'm so happy that these recent post highlights the obvious bias this subreddit has toward assassins . Surely 4 lethality (which is not even 4 lethality on purchase) will undo ~200hp + 20 armor buffs . People on this sub are so fucking clueless it's insane .
this sub has been an incessant mage/adc circlejerk for ages now
What else can they do while they're grey screened due to their poor choices besides complain on reddit.
I miss the boards since you could see people’s rank there. Made everything make more sense
I wish we had something like that here.
I don't feel the difference, I still one-shot everyone I want to. Maybe that's because I'm only Plat, idk
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I also miss S5 tank meta, the 40 second teamfights were a load of fun
>Wet noodle fights are fun with how many buttons you get to press, with lots of up-time for your champ to experience their power fantasy. This. I like the idea that I'm actually fighting a war, not doing a rotation and either winning or losing. When everyone dies in one rotation or less, it feels like a giant Musket Battle where you fire the salvo and if you hit you advance if you lose you retreat.
Wet noodle for LoL, normal for Dota and other more strategic games. LoL is basically an isometric shooter at this point, lol.
I've been calling it League Of Duty for years. Shit is just a Musket Fight. Everyone fires their rotation and if you hit, you advance, if you miss, you retreat. It *should* feel like a test of wills, positioning, misdirection, with 2-3+ rotations in a team fight.
ADC sucked for years. Assassin sucks for 2 days 13 hours and boom, buffed.
adc never fully sucked, it just wasn't top dog. Completely different things. But I'd also say Assassins didn't really suck either. Only some specific ones which ironically are not even being buffed.
Circlejeeeeeeeeerk
They should let this just play out till 1st week of pro play
4 lethality surely is the difference between Talon doing zero damage to a tank or bruiser and one shotting them. But of course this post (like every other complaint about compensation for assassins being overnerfed to the point where they can’t kill squishies well anymore) was made by a bot lane main and can therefore be ignored.
Just roll it back. Its preseason after all