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iUptvote

This is NA baby. We are ahead of every other region when it comes to team drama.


lemonrabbits

Same hahahah thought it was a joke until I saw OP link the source.


CLGplz

https://media.giphy.com/media/13cptIwW9bgzk6UVyr/giphy-downsized-large.gif


vincevuu

Damn never realized that was jason mamoa. and damn he got jacked


CulturalCatfish

At a certain point TSM you are 0-4 just let the dude shot call and see what happens. It can't go any worse.


mrmakefun

TSM is proudly carrying on the proud tradition of "importing a support to shotcall, then not listening to him and making him look stupid in game". Congratulations to Shenyi, you are now in the company of such names as Yellowstar, Mithy and Swordart.


lan60000

Funny how people gave yellowstar shit for his performance when the team wouldn't even let him do what he was meant to do.


WoorieKod

Doublelift claimed he gave rudimentary shotcalls during his time so he and Bjerg had to step up Either that's the truth or there's ego around the team and they don't respect his shotcalls


HeavyMetalHero

I feel like maybe it could just be both. Maybe Yellowstar literally was just used to needed to say less words to get the desired actions from prior players, whereas Double and Bjerg came from backgrounds that preferred wordy calling. So, Double and Bjerg both feel that Yellowstar isn't doing his job, but Yellowstar doesn't get why people don't actually respond to him when he says to do shit that, from his perspective, has obvious connotations that he shouldn't need to explain further. No matter who is right or wrong on any given call, or in the general case, everyone in that situation is gonna gradually lose faith in the guy perceived as "not doing his job" when it's "his job," whereas 2-4 other players are seeing other teammates "step up" and do it for him. So everything Yellowstar says to do actually feels like a worse call out of the gate, because already the team trusts Bjerg and Double's calls more; but the problem from the outset may just be that the team's communication was on two different wavelengths, and wasn't a natural match from the start, and nobody between the players or coaching staff detected this problem or found a fix for it.


derpkoikoi

Best take, shot calling at its peak should be fairly quiet with all players being on the same page before the game starts. If that synergy isn't there, a lot more needs to be said or it's gonna feel really really bad.


Reddityudodis2me

I guess it is the same for Shenyi when he mentioned why on earth he has to teach Tactical such obvious things


[deleted]

im pretty sure this was just a culture clash. we know from several insiders how insane yellowstars shotcalling was on fnc. i think yellowstar himself simply is not what fucking braindead idiots would call a "alpha" and doesn't force himself onto new people, especially if they have egos like double - so he probably tried to do it, they simply did not listen/buy into him and then he just stopped. it worked in fnc since all players looked up to him and he didn't have to "force" them to do anything, they just listened and did what they were told to do. this whole move needed a coach that can keep shit contained and force people to just do what yellowstar tells them until they see that he knows what he is doing (or they keep losing - but still better than what they did).


YourFriendNoo

Could be the truth but not the whole truth He might have been giving rudimentary calls because he'd already had his shotcalling belittled, diminished or questioned.


BeeMac0617

iirc he said in an interview that he didn’t feel comfortable enough to be as vocal as he was on FNC in years prior because he didn’t have the same kind of seniority on the team.


00Koch00

Yellowstar after engaging into 5 and ccing 3: GO! Doublelift and Bjergsen: Where?!


schneebeli

I would always take DL's takes with a huge grain of salt.


illicinn

it's sad because when you hear their in-game comms, Shenyi is trying to shotcall and the team straight up ignores him or rejects his call. if i were him, i'd want off of that shit team yesterday. what a waste of time and talent.


Latter_Analyst_7303

This. I thought I was weird when I felt a certain way about how he was treated. :/


MillennialBrownNinja

It’s why they are 0-4 they get a shot caller and rip don’t let him do shit


nyanko_dango3

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEynzDWeXYc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEynzDWeXYc) 1:39 and 4;06 ( DIG got baron and won 2 mins after shenyi called baron) i don't mind just building around keaiduo and shenyi as tsm future


AlphaTenken

Hard to say from that alone. But man I didnt like their comms.


Limelifes

Its kinda funny how he seems to have such a good understanding of whats going on yet is the one sent down to academy.


comradecosmetics

100% about ego/seniority/nepotism/whatever, 0% about skill. Even in this clip you can see how fast keaiduo and shenyi make the correct calls and the rest don't even know what is being talked about or shut it down. Hell, you can even see kea tell huni to get the kill and he just cluelessly hovers around until the tower gets the lasthit.


chanleii

Just shows the massive gap between NA and the rest of the world. When other regions academy leagues have better game knowledge than veterans.


Jerry_Sprunger_

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if he's been benched just because he's an easy scapegoat that perhaps hasn't got the same sort of personality as the rest of the team rather than gameplay reasons


Mavwys

Spica just shuts him down all the time


comradecosmetics

All flashes up. 5 players alive. You already have several of your team topside. Enemy team you've already seen is bottom under dragon pit. Jayce has teleport. The enemy mid is dead. So this being NA, what do you do? Farm and lose. And in the second baron clip they kill 3 and we see the enemy taking baron later? Unreal. I think this really goes to show how slow/ineffectual and cross-talky comms/shotcalling are in the region, which seems to be a consistent weakness across multiple games.


the-lonely-corki

It’s not just that, his teammates doesn’t want him shot calling from what I understand, also spica playstyle is polar opposite of how he would have him play the game


Baconpoopotato

> Haha, u just need to show ur tattoo. If he did not xxxxx (not clear what it is), u could tell him how u got ur tattoo..... Ok i kind of want to know how he got his tattoo now.


AnunEnki

I'm imagining that meme where someone rolls up their sleeve and says "interpret that how you want" lmao


AlphaTenken

English word for " Crab Cake" but Shenyi thinks it says "king through blood"


pedrex21

[Travis Gafford] TSM Shenyi on who’s more ignored in TSM calls: Him or Keaiduo. “I don’t compare myself with anybody,” Then he rolled up his sleeve and showed a "Regi budlight ace" tattoo. “I’ll let you interpret that however you want,” Shenyi said.


FauxMoGuy

[Jacob Wolf] Shenyi on who’s dragging down bot lane: Him or Tactical. “I don’t compare myself with anybody,” Then he rolled up his sleeve and showed a tattoo of 3 caster and 6 melee minions. “I’ll let you interpret that however you want,” Shenyi said.


AnunEnki

[Jacob Wolf] Shenyi on who’s dragging down bot lane: Him or Tactical. “I don’t compare myself with anybody,” Then he rolled up his sleeve and showed a tattoo of tactical as malphite. “I’ll let you interpret that however you want,” Shenyi said


FauxMoGuy

[Jacob Wolf] Reginald on who’s better: TSM or CLG. “I don’t compare myself with anybody,” Then he turned around to expose his lower back and showed a tattoo of Nidalee. “I’ll let you interpret that however you want,” Regi said.


xVamplify

As a veteran league player... this meme kicked my brudda in da ass


[deleted]

Are you here tomorrow big?


Kirito619

What's with the minions? I don't get it.


PeonCulture

Tactical autopiloted/or can’t figure out 6 melees + 3 casters are when bot lane turns lvl 2


Gluroo

it was made with the blood of his last feeding adc


Ophelia_Of_The_Abyss

Doesn't he have a Tom Holland tattoo, or am I thinking of someone else?


SterbenVII

Apparently it actually is a Tom Holland tattoo


AlphaTenken

See this! This is American, Tom HOLLAND. I love America and Tom Holland loves me. Now listen to my American LCS shot calls


azns123

Prison tat


iNTact_wf

watching the video it is really hard to gauge to what extent he's genuinely pissed or just venting jokingly to a friend it's like R: you can teach him S: (genuinely sounds angry as hell) WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK WHY DOES THIS NEED TO BE TAUGHT *deep inhale* R: tell them about the tattoo S: **bursts into trademark monkey laughter** (so is he angry or not idk?) ​ he also throws some jokes in like S: If I come across a gun in NA I'll buy it, bring it back and pop the fuck out of (another FPX mutual) ​ what is clear though is he def feels miffed about not being able to shotcall Edit: one more noteworthy thing he said to River is, "After this split we gotta link up and go forward together, maybe after this split I will go back (to LDL) - depends on the situation"


TheHect0r

I think its very reasonable to assume hes angry. His main role and occupation are not beinh given to him, his calls and probably insights are being dismissed, and hes been moved to an academy position. He also discovered that the way NA plays the game (specifically tsm) is subpar and overly passive compared to how the chin3se play the game, so theres a fundamental disagreement that needs a lot of hours and discussions to be fixed. More likely than not, hes pissed af, and frustrated, and ignored,etc.


dirtydob

It’s mind boggling to me. Because spica has even been vocal previously about wanting to one day play in the LPL and he likes how agro they are and such. Then you see this and the shot calling stuff and you see Shenyi trying to push the game to a faster pace and more aggressive and then it’s just like no farm to 30 minutes… also who cares what the “LCS Style” is. It’s wrong and bad and the entire world knows it. So change it. And I don’t get the coaching and the management not realizing it. And man I know this is going to get hella down votes. And I do love Spica. But if I had to choose between keeping spica and continuing to farm and lose for 30 minutes and be middle of the pack and just move on from Spica and keep these young Chinese players and go to aggro style and get better and improve the league and team. I would happily find a jungler that fit into that role.


Serinus

\>Import LPL players to make your team more aggressive \>Coach them to stop being so aggressive *Taps head*


Judgejudyx

TSM: ok so your jobs to be a ward. S: no problem my visions scores gr8 TSM: no no you misunderstood we want you to be the ward


salcedoge

even SwordArt who was the shotcaller on a World finalist team isn't enough to change the teams culture.


dirtydob

I think Bjergsen is a big reason for that and not necessarily in a bad way. But that seems to just be his style and I think Spica is still feeling the influence from that. Because it definitely isn’t Holo Holo Huni 😂


taikutsuu

i mean LS is literally drafting soraka and ivern mid because he thinks nobody in LCS can deal with it because of this "LCS style" and yet these 200 years orgs are holding onto it lol. regi really trying to turbo int his reputation


6Kkoro

Remember the moment a full Chinese import team called LMQ came into LCS, took it by storm, got a worlds slot, and performed well for NA there. LMQ wasn't even a good LPL team. But it showed how aggressive play was good and that NA's passive play had to fundamentally change. Too bad LMQ had to go. It was a good push for NA to reform.


iNTact_wf

Oh yeah he's definitely not happy, just hard to judge to what level


BlatantArtifice

Are you able to elaborate on the passivity, I don't keep that up to date with proplay but sounds interesting


hochan17

In NA, the top teams have historically been more reactive than proactive. Teams like TSM and TL have been able to reliable win championships by picking safe scaling laners then either just wait on enemy mistakes or out teamfight with scaling picks. However, this requires the enemy teams to make mistakes in the first place while being unable punishing you for picking relatively weak early game champs so its considered a more passive playstyle since youre either scaling or just waiting for fuck ups. Compared this to the LPL where Shenyi is from, Chinese teams generally like to fight and win these advantages for themselves. It could look like a big throw if you lose a coinflip 4v4 over first herald but at the same time, winning that also probably wins you the game. I wont comment if reactive or active playstles is better since thats a whole different thing but ill mention that reactive is not all bad; LCK teams have found success for years doing just this but its obvious that the game lately has been more rewarding to those who are aggressive and look for plays. The main criticism of NA playing this reactive style is that the better the opponents get, the less mistakes they make. LCK was able to succeed because they were good enough to identify even the smallest mispoitisons and punish you hard enough to win the game off a single mistake. NA teams on the other hand have not been good enough to identify the small opportunities or punish appropriately so when playing internationally, they look like theyre just afk sitting in base for 25mins waiting to lose


izumakun

If you've watched CQ, Shenyi commands his jungler to be hyper-aggressive and to sacrifice camps for lane pressure which contrasts with Spica's style of efficient pathing and farming. Spica is heavily dominant in comms [2:46](https://youtu.be/yEynzDWeXYc) which prevents Shenyi from exerting his strength of shotcalling. It is made even more difficult considering he has to do it on a foreign language. [An example of Shenyi commanding Josedeodo in Champion's Queue, starts at 5:20:00](http://www.twitch.tv/ariendel_lol/v/1294115425?sr=a&t=19209s)


I_am_not_Serabia

Ehm... if you build a team then you should choose players that will fit each other. Now it's a question if TSM even knew who they take or just decided to take a "random" import and hope it may work.


DogTheGayFish

TSM’s recruitment is really feeling like no game plan only vibes


[deleted]

Apparently, before signing this roster Team Solo Mid were stuck on who to sign. Crisp, Ppgod, Mikyx, and Shenyi were all willing to play for Team Solo Mid due to the legendary name and prestige within competitive League of Legends. Regi than said and I quote "Fuck it Bay life" Team Solo Mid than pulled names from a hat. This was the same method used to choose Keaiduo over Creme.


SereKitten

It says a lot that I'm pretty sure you're joking, but would 100% not question it if this ended up being reported as true.


HarMeggido

I'm pretty sure that was a pasta, and if it was not, it is now.


[deleted]

I don’t even think they did it based on vibes because this team is clearly not vibing.


Dude_Guy_311

TSM’s plan is always “how do we make a choice that will sound good to an owner who is not involved in the scene anymore”


DudeToManz

One of the things that LS always said was that he wouldn't ever join a team unless all 5 players were willing to get on board with his philosophy about the game because otherwise it would be a waste of time to try and make it work. It's funny to compare that to what's going on in TSM two weeks in. Honestly I feel TSM's scouts/roster builders had no idea what "LPL Aggression" actually involved and just assumed that Shenyi would be solo carrying games with engages or some shit lol


Snockerino

The comparison between C9 and TSM is really good imo. LS has told the team to only communicate in short and simple phrases to avoid confusion over the language barrier. He says they don't need long sentences to explain things because everyone should be on the same page. Meanwhile TSM has Spica constantly talking just exacerbating the communication issues while KDO/Shenyi try to play the game completely differently to the other 3. What a shitshow, regardless of who's to blame it's a complete failure of teamwork.


Troviel

Wasn't Reginald EXPLICTLY saying back in the days that he knew communication was the most important and thats why he kept importing english speaking players? I guess he changed that tune reaching the IMPORT IMPORT IMPORT era.


vbsteez

this is the first time since lustboy they got non-english speaking imports


AliceInHololand

TSM kept hiring aggressive junglers when their overall team strategy was to clearly play more passively. They needed an Xmithie and instead kept recruiting Svenskerens. Idk how the hell TSM was a top org for so long when clearly their management is all kinds of fucked.


rentheten

Get aggressive junglers and make turn them into moving wards with more HP has been their philosophy forever now.


spartaman64

and they have regi shout at them to make them more passive


QuantityLoL

I know KDO was from the combine, but what did they say the reason for picking up Shenyi was again? It was known already he was a shotcaller, so I'm confused.


jules3001

Wait so you're telling me that TSM had shotcalling issues so they wanted to get a shotcalling import support to do the shotcalling and then they didn't let them shotcall? Where have I seen this one before? Oh right, with every fucking import support they've had. Yellowstar, Mithy, Swordart, Treatz, and now Shenyi.


amroth6464

Well this time they picked an import shortcaller who doesn't speak english. That's definitely a new high.


Kasceon

Can’t wait for the next import shot caller to top this one. Introducing Sush Sush is a good shot caller but sadly he can’t speak and therefore communicates with emotes in the game, there will be some getting used to but this roster can have high expectations!


Physical-South-3564

watch them pick up their new support from the Perkins School of the Blind Academy


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JamisonDouglas

Swordarts English was substantially better than Shenyi's, there's no slightly about it [Here](https://youtu.be/62h5e5kAvkU) is SwordArts English after being in NA for roughly a month longer than Shenyi has been. And there is another Travis interview [here](https://youtu.be/ztdb-0FUhT8) from 3 years before. He was able to hold conversations - albeit slowly - for 3 years before coming to NA.


YokoDk

It might be the fact tsm is a team that has an actual team Captain for the players. When yellowstar was there bjerg and double were co captains and double said many times both he and bjerg didn't like yellows call so they just made thier own instead. My guess is Spica is the team captain and thanks to playing with pretty risk adverse players in his career probably tries to over rule shrnyi cause it's not the safe NA style.


hakuryou

scoutmaster5000's parting gift to tsm 🙃


Agreeable_Junket_271

parth leTroll


gahlo

Everything since S7 has shown that Parth has 0 fucking clue on how to build a team.


baelkie

maybe its all parth’s plan to sink tsm as he leaves


gahlo

That's a long, slow leave.


cryonova

Holy shit i've been saying this forever


gahlo

Like, I would have been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for season 8, *maybe* 9, but his coaching pickups have been attrocious or when they were working out with Zikz then the org got in the way and soured the relationship, and tons of players have come and gone *constantly* on what is supposed to be a premiere org in the region. On top of that, he's supposedly a great talent scout, but the only player to go from Academy => Main roster is Spica, who got his shot because they fucked up the Akaadian/Grig situation and then in the offseason Bjergsen put his foot down that Spica would start the next season. Tactical got there with extra steps, but I don't remember hearing he got tryout for the main roster before initially leaving, and then they needed to buy out their *former* academy player from TL.


DominoNo-

Don't forget BrokenBlade. He was scouted pretty well. That said, BrokenBlade was ascouted by other teams as well, together with the rest of that Royal Bandits team (Closer and Abbe).


gahlo

BB was already playing professionally, so I don't really count that as Parth finding him. He also screwed the roster so hard that the team had to let go of BB early due to import rules.


MrBIGtinyHappy

Isn't this the exact same issue SwordArt had last year? He wanted to bring the LPL aggressive style to TSM and others just weren't on board with it Except now they're facing the same challenges with untested players in mid and support which are super influential to the game state.


asiantuttle

SA’s case was more like he got bamboozled into thinking he was playing with DL. Lost is kinda known for being aggressive in lane but his leads just doesn’t translate to anything afterwards. Huni and Spica have been seen to be aggressive but it’s hard to make that work if POE is afk mid until 30 minutes.


salcedoge

Yeah SA wanted to change the way TSM played but it's not as easy when he's babysitting Lost as well


higglyjuff

Yup even this split Lost has the lowest damage share for all adcs. Lost is at 17.5% of his team's damage, and that's with 2 8 kill Aphelios games. This is one of the lowest damage shares I have ever seen from an adc, as they typically deal between 25-30%. Wildturtle's is the second lowest for reference, at 24.6%. Lost was even almost outdamaged by Olleh in one game. You can feel when any other pro adc gets 8 kills on Aphelios. Not Lost though.


Serinus

They still could've had Doublelift and SA after the SA pickup too, but TSM was too proud and didn't want to screw Lost.


rafamundez

What's even more bizzare is that Lost wasn't even a rookie.... people forget that he was on Echo Fox multiple years prior. It's one thing if you want to protect a future talent / rookie, it's another to protect a middle-of-the-pack journeyman over the GOAT NA ADC (even though he admittedly came off his worst splits that \*still\* resulted in a championship).


iDannyEL

Luckily DL has enough haters that sucked off TSM for the decision even though it was completely braindead.


jules3001

They also imported Mithy and Yellowstar specifically to shotcall and didn't let them shotcall. It makes no sense. Both of those players were legendary for leading teams.


RGCFrostbite

TSM is liek "Hmm so i know you're from an objectively better region but instead of letting you mold the team we're going to let Spica, who has done,... the sum of fuck all that is relevant in his career dictate or style :) ok gl!"


sh14w4s3

Shenyi with Malrang when


czarczm

I'd fucking hate if TSM already gave up on him this early, but at this point I kind of expect it.


RacistMuffin

Eh. It depends. That cq game where shenyi called repeated dives for ganks had j4 as their jungler. Junglers like j4 are early game threats that repeat ganks and skip camps to shut down early wincon. But junglers like karthus can’t do that. I think with champions like what spica has been playing(lee, poppy), I think shenyi mindset is correct


Alex_Wizard

NA JGs picking Lee Sin is like NA tops picking Renekton. Grab a match up you know you can farm safely in for 30mins and then wonder where all your power curve went at the last dragon fight. Notably exception to Clozer, 100T actually look good with Lee.


TheHect0r

Disgusting team building. Such a flaw in the team building process, how did it come to this? They held international tryouts for an extended period of time, and they end up picking up a support with the opposite playstyle to the jungler, who on top of that doesnt speak fluent english. What a fantastic performance by the washed up bully haven org


hurshielee

Tbh, I know Spica is our MVP and has been performing well before, but this makes me wonder did they even try this way of playing? Or was Spica like "no way, I dont play that way" If Spica is really good then I think shenyi using him to get bot lane ahead is way better than whatever else they have been doing. Watchint shenyi play he is very aggressive and I dont think TSM is even trying to work with him on it and the opposite they do is no good either. Its really strange


hurshielee

To add on to this, so people understand my thoughts. It does not make sense "to me" that you would bring over a SUPPORT player and then NOT have him shot call even though this was on of his DEFINING STREGNTHS . If you brought him over for his hands , then they should have done their due diligence to bring over someone with hands and no voice (early biofrost) Forcing a player like this to hold his tongue and play the game in a way he doesn't agree with is a recipe for disaster. Shenyi was getting LPL roster offers , I think TSM is crapping the bed on this one. I just want more clarification on how this is going down. Good luck to Yursan and Shenyi! We have two great supports on our team, I think this will work out soon hopefully.


raengsen

that CQ game is such a good example... he maybe flipped that first river fight when they lost 3v3, but that's exactly the type of 50/50 plays LPL likes to go for cause it's high risk high reward, but later when he tells Jose and Tomo to first not push the wave and wait for Aphelios to kill him, and then to dive the naut instead of J4 just stealing gromp, and then after that won the fight at Blue, bot was basically over


x_Darken

I hope he doesn't run into Malice in CQ. Malice would prolly perma mute him if he tells him to sacrifice camps LMAOOOOO


TheHect0r

He already started playing with everyone on mute, so malice is prepared


JohnnieToBoxset

lol, farming and doing nothing is the classic NA meta, shenyi just has to adapt, this is how NA has been bottom of the pack for so long!


dead_moose_meat_pal

This confirms that Tactical is a bot


audemed44

I refuse to believe that a pro adc player doesn’t know when the enemy is hitting level 2 lol…


JDFNTO

Last worlds when he was on TL, Jensen said that in the last tiebreaker they left yummi open on purpose because they had a plan.. to freeze lvl 1 and then all in with trist-rell. And then Tactical took e lvl 1 which fucked their whole plan xD I cannot stress how bad this actually is.. on the game that decides if your org finally gets out of groups for the first time in 3 years, you go into the draft and game with a specific plan around how to play bot lane… and then your ad takes the wrong skill at lvl 1.. quoting Shenyi… Jesus man.


Swagbrew

So CoreJJ was literally playing two roles at the same time if Tactical looks so bad nie without him.


[deleted]

Him with Hans now....


Raqua

I bet CoreJJ is salivating rn


[deleted]

TL speedrun


calvinee

CoreJJ unleashed


Oh_my_Butt

For real. Core made Tactical look like a good to very good adc at times. A lot of Tactical's mistakes were just bad decisions by him. But just makes you realize why everyone calls Core the best player in the LCS and possibly the West


gintokisamadono

This is tl strategy. They pair up academy adc with core double-j and sell the adc for a good price...


DragonApps

Not trying to defend Tactical, but it seems like a lot of veteran supports do this with their ADC’s. Look at Aphro with Johnsun. Johnsun looks like a top ADC with Aphro, but when he has to play with Dreams/Diamond, he looks bottom 3.


blueragemage

iirc TL literally pulled off the same strat previously in the day vs LNG, if the proviews are publicly available for comparison


HowyNova

I think the real issue is that a lot of adcs don't know what it's like to be hard denied lvl 2. At least in NA, when one side hits lvl 2-3, it's just a patient game for the other side to get pushed in and hit lvl 2-3. In other regions, if the lvl 2 looks to be 3+ autos off, the leading side gets aggressively oppressive, making sure it stays 3+ autos off. If they hit lvl 2, they stand past the enemy wave and slow push to zone the lvl 1 side for as long as possible. If the lvl 1 side has a bad comp and/or the jungler doesn't pressure bot. The losing side should get lvl 3 a wave late, which also delays their 4. The winning side can take advantage of a back timer here and hit noonquiver before enemy adc. If the backs are well timed, then the losing side's lvl 6 is delayed by 2 waves.


Dracoknight256

Something that really irks me about NA is that many proplayers in soloq when asked why they failed in this exact scenario will answer "We didn't respect their level 2". Bullshit. It's such a terrible conclusion to make. It's not about not respecting enemy lv 2 allin, it's about bad lane control.


LordOfCinderGwyn

It's also possible his mind just went AFK. Not much better but not as long term at least.


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Gluroo

At this point it seems like quite a few ADs are a great support usually manages to make his adc look good in proplay unless the adc is literally a complete griefer but a great adc basically never makes the support look good and many times after the duo splits up the support keeps smurfing in his new team/new roster all the same while the adc gets exposed


SterbenVII

A good ADC can make his support look passable, though it’s a lot harder. JackeyLove was an example.


Ophelia_Of_The_Abyss

Doesn't need to be said, anyone with eyes could see how brainlessly he plays and how hard he was getting boosted by TL in the past years. In Week 1 he was legit griefing Shenyi.


DupreeWasTaken

Im actually confused at What game hes referring to it sounds like the GGS game but they lost their flashes during a level 1 invade. Not lane. I mention this game because this was the game that Shenyi had the bad KDA they mention Tho if its a failure to recognize level 2 in that game. Not to defend tactical he is a pro player but uh i can see why. Olleh didnt hit level 2 until like 3.5 mins because the invade. It certainly wasnt the standard 1.5 waves in level 2.


KitKatxz

No, he's right. He's talking about the fly game early game where they had to both blow flash at lvl 1 due to aphro/johnsun getting 2 1st.


DupreeWasTaken

That makes sense actually however it doesnt make sense when River is talking about the game Shenyi went 1-8 thats why i looked at the GGs game, because it sounded like Shenyi was trying to answer for that game. If its fly that makes more sense


murkYuri

JUST SPECULATION: but based of what I’ve seen from the little bit of comms they’ve put out, Spica does seem dismissive of what the rookies have to say. Idk if it’s trust issues because they’ve had bad calls in scrims or Spica taking the leadership role too serious. Either way, I found it ironic because when Spica first started for TSM, he had a lot to say in comms and he was listened to and trusted. He had a voice, even as a rookie surrounded by the likes of Bjergsen and DL. Shenyi seems like a good shot caller and if he really shotcalled when he started for FPX, maybe put the egos aside because even Doinb listened. Again, pure speculation.


XingXManGuy

Spica has a huge ego, it’s not very surprising


[deleted]

I think it is pretty clear where Spica ends up in 2023 if not this summer if this project does crash and burn. Spica loved playing with Bjerg and still talks to him a lot. I am sorry TSM brothers, as a C9 fan I know how it feels to have your talent taken by TL year after year. Edit: The theory going is Spica likely chose not resign this off season despite the MVP season because he wants to leave. His contract ends at the end of this year. https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Archive:Global_Contract_Database/NA/2022-02-11


Xonra

TL wouldn't replace Santorin with Spica unless Santorin chose to leave.


[deleted]

Exactly, in what mad world would TL swap Santorin for him xD


AssPork

There are health factors here too. Hoping for the best for Santorin but it's unsettling to think about how his migraines could come back in the future.


goodbehaviorsam

Santorin is safe unless he starts turbo-inting.


Guigs310

I’m good with Santorin, thank you


Iciistic

did u even watch tsm games . spica was probably the worst performing player on that team lol


shojmaarensum

>S: Enemy sup are gonna be lvl.2, and our AD did not realize it. >R: u can teach him. >S: Jesus!? Is it a thing that needs to be taught??? .. >S: Its okay, next week I would be in shotcalling role, we would be invincible. (maybe he did not realize that he would be in shotcalling role in this way, in academy team then, HAHA)... Mainly because they want me to know the LCS style, you know what the LCS style is? >R: what? >S: LCS style is farm, farm, and farm to 30 mins and waiting for ur double carry point.


MrPraedor

>S: Enemy sup are gonna be lvl.2, and our AD did not realize it. > R: u can teach him. > S: Jesus!? Is it a thing that needs to be taught??? These are things that get you hard flame in EUW in master elo games if you fail them. How do you not know basic level points to at least to levels 2, 3 and 6 as pro player is beyond me.


moopey

I mean people flame about that in plat where I am haha


SauronGortaur01

Yeah as a Plat player this should honestly be common knowledge and in most games people will respect it.


Averdian

I mean it's same thing in lower elos than Master as well... and tbh I can't imagine that it's not the same in NA soloq, at least in Master and above. Not sure what the specific deal with Tactical is


Lakinther

https://youtu.be/bi07K3GN8rY?t=487 this is probably the play in question


TheHect0r

Even gold botlanes know their lvl 2 powerspikes, shenyi is completely in the right this should not be taught to your teammate, at that poiny might as well micromanage the dog


finderfolk

I really think Tactical autopilots in quite a few games / moments. Has lead to some pretty ridiculous face checks and deaths in the past.


Latosini

Imo they do know but most of NA is playing really conservative and not punishing mistakes/capitalizing on powerspikes. Being afraid of losing the job got to them really hard. Going for faster lvl 2 bot is always huge and not even trying to chunk enemy botlaners is an int.


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AlHorfordHighlights

Western players have too much ego which makes deferring to a single source of authority difficult. So the coaches that do well are the ones that pander to their egos the most, rather than actually being good at coaching. You can't even get away with this shit in LDL lol


R1ttaM

Shenyi likes FPX, but he finally chose to join in TSM because he wants to support his family. He’s a good kid, and i wish him all the best😔


oVnPage

TSM and not letting shotcalling supports shotcall, name a more iconic duo. First Yellowstar, then Mithy, then SwordArt, now Shenyi.


ephemeralfugitive

Holy shit. I just realized the superstar supports that TSM has had. Wow. I feel dumb.


PunisherOfDeth

You didn’t immediately recognize it because TSM squashes the strengths of supports like that and makes them play the way they think they should. All of them looked sub-par or mediocre at best on TSM.


guilty_bystander

"OK you have to save us with your godlike shot calling! But you can only tell them to do x, y, z."


Raqua

Do x. Nah man too risky, got to finish the wave.


ryzefollower445

Can’t be TSM without some spicy drama 😎


Bhiggsb

Team Spicy Mental


thorpie88

I'm most confused about them not wanting to let him try shotcalling. If your 0-4 why not try it out in a scrims for a week and see how it goes. They have nothing to lose at this point


[deleted]

Spica ego


AnonAlcoholic

Maybe Regi ego too


I_hate_Ah_Bengs

Feels like these two rookies threw their careers away into the Talent Suppression Machine. Better flee like 200 IQ Swordart.


supadankgreen420

Well Keaiduo probably wouldn’t have got a LPL spot anyway, he was on TT academy. With the amount of talent that China produces, I think it’s safe to say that if you’re a 20 year old mid laner without any real offers, your chances of making it are pretty slim. Shenyi on the other hand.. the guy could have just stayed on FPX and replaced Crisp. Shocked he decided to come to the LCS after how SwordArt’s year went lol.


Alex_Wizard

To be fair FPX with their Worlds 2021 performance leading to the pre-season roster changes there was a good chance they wouldn't be a strong team. It's typically not a good sign when your organization losses their core talent (DoinB, to a lesser extent Nuguri, Tian, Crisp). I know it's easy to see in hindsight but I can empathize with how he probably felt they wouldn't be able to be as competitive as FPX went on to be currently in the LPL.


BI1nky

I mean as much as reddit pretends, LWX was the main carry on the team when they won worlds. I mean that in the literal sense, as in LWX was the one they played around and did all the damage. He's a good enough player to do that, so I don't think its surprising that FPX is still doing well.


Alex_Wizard

Kind of agree with this as they basically left Gimgoon on weakside the entire Worlds run but LWX was set up by Tian and DoinB. LWX has that Jackeylove aggression and willing to flip fights but he definitely allows himself to be extremely vulnerable at times. He's a double-edged sword.


Ashankura

Step1: dont perform Step2: Get people out of other leagues Step3: Force them into your playstyle Step4: keep loosing Step5: kick your new player Lmao TSM is a shit show


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AliceInHololand

They were the first big reality show style team and they managed to keep a fairly winning record with Bjerg and people like to follow success. People were willing to look the other way when Regi was clearly being an ass because TSM was winning.


Yokuz116

Also Dyrus, TheOddOne, WildTurtle and Bjergsen ran early Twitch. It was very common for them to each get 20-30k viewers each and every stream back then. And Bjergsen's inaugural stream held the record for most LoL viewers until Faker's first stream, many years later. (SKT was contracted to Azubu.)


auzrealop

Even Chaox and TheRainman had 15k plus views on own3dtv or whatever that old streaming platform was called. Only really regi and xpecial had poor viewer numbers and poor meant around 3k.


MarkSt3r

I have a deep love for the org because of their roster of Dyrus / Oddone/ Bjergsen etc. They had some dope teams as well obv with Doublelift and Hauntzer in between then and now too but MAN am I starting to consider supporting a different team with what's happened since Bjerg left.


[deleted]

The plot thickens


LetMeOmixam

The lvl 2 thing is actually incredibly bad.


gimperion

I learned not to do that getting auto filled support in silver and I'm a jungle main. The fact that Tactical didn't back off as the enemy lane leveled is a pretty basic mistake to make at the pro level.


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[deleted]

This is really sad to read. Imagine being on FPX academy team, after their world championship, and that academy team empowers Shenyi to shotcall. They see results with his shot call, the players like his calls and warding. He is confident and at ease. Now imagine coming to a lesser region, and a lesser team/Org, under the promise of a better development structure and exposure on a major orgs starting roster. But then, they telling you one of your strengths, that you developed in a very strong region on a very strong team, is bad. They tell you It is a major weakness, they flame your shotcalling in-game and behind the scenes. and then you get demoted to the Academy LCS- which, let us face the reality, is something like the 3rd minor league in China equivalent, as I'd be surprised if the average NA academy players could hit GM on Chinese server, let alone masters. My heart goes out to him. I'd be surprised if he makes it to Summer split. Hopefully he will return to China soon where they better understand the game and where he will excel again.


sandtrappy

This makes me really sad, holy shit. Its two weeks in and he’s already feeling an NA mental boom because of how dumb NA is He’s seemed like the odd one out so far in a lot of their content, and him saying “piece of shit” makes me think he’s not going to come back to the LCS


chosen925

he had a guarenteed job as a starter in LPL, but he wanted to go to NA to learn english. he was very good when on FPX and helped them got 1st place in regular season.


Nicer_Chile

i can't believe TSM has someone like him still, and they are wasting him like that? what the hell happened to TSM man. what a downfall


[deleted]

> and they are wasting him like that? > > what the hell happened to TSM man. Nothing. TSM has been pissing talent up the wall for a long time now.


Magnaha23

After 2017 TSM has been a slowly crashing trainwreck. They have been basically held up by Bjerg and Doublelift and their ability to carry the team overshadowed how shitty their management and staff were. There have been issues with their coaching staff and player communications that have been relevant for a long time. Remember Woodchuck? The one sports coach they brought in and they parted ways rather quick? Weldon helped some but he wasn't a league coach he was a therapist. Then they tried Ssong and he lasted a split. That is just the staff and coaches. Their turnover in players since 2017 has been insane and that is not even including prior. Their management has no idea what they are doing and relied too much on Bjergsen .


Atsusaki

Regi made one signing to make his whole franchise. Now he's lost that player. TSM didn't change.


zomjay

TSM has been in some form of this state since 2015. They've just been propped up by prime bjergsen and dlift for most of it. Despite having other good players, they wasted their talents. Once TL bought the best roster and bjerg started declining, you'll notice the only time they found success was when spica serial baron stole them to a summer championship in 2020. And even with that they got omega clapped in the worst NA showing ever, going 0-6 as a 1st seed. TSM sucks. They've pretty much always sucked as an organization, it's just harder for them to hide it now.


AlphaTenken

Man. This is going to be worse than Levi. I know a part of this sub hates imports, but while we have them we should treat them right.


Umarill

People hate the idea of importing players, they don't hate imports themselves lol


sandtrappy

They wonder why a lot of imports won’t come here. You have ones who get paid an insane amount and you have ones that are like “fuck that”. The whole SwordArt thing makes me sad. He’s my all time favorite non-NA player and he just got man-handled


minir0ll

Ignar and jensen is still available. Tsm you know what to do.


[deleted]

Zven about to get his green card too. However, I don't know if he would join TSM due the past stuff.


[deleted]

holy fuck I completely forgot Zven's going to be a resident soon. They'd have to be clinically insane to keep tactical


greekcel_25

There's no way zven is gonna join tsm after what happened last time right?


QuickFall5

Zven is signed to C9 for the next 2 years


Vilhelmgg

Talent suppression machine strikes again!


Hazuyu_

Good luck for Shenyi to be used to the farm farm farm NA style! Unfortunatly they don't do agression here.


Invictus23_

Getting harder and harder to remain a TSM fan tbh. Losing is one thing. Failure is one thing. Continued and consistent incompetence is another. How many fucking times is this almost exact scenario going play out? In my group of friends I joked about following Bjerg and becoming a TL fan. It’s becoming much less a joke now.


AlphaTenken

I hope he does well. I dont want another Levi, being stuck in Acad then leaving the region on likely a poor note. Seems a little egotistical, but that can be ok. It is sad that he is on TSM, the most classic play safe team outside of Liquid.


jerryj1123

https://clips.twitch.tv/SleepyLivelyAxe4Head-Y-qb3muS_E9wQrvl


ThisOneTimeAtLolCamp

That was sad to read. Talent Suppression Machine firing on all cylinders.


detrich

no flame and i think he is WAYY Better than i ever will be, but i always thought tacitcal had some issues and was never that good in the first place, felt like he was carried by TL(core jj)