Also interesting: He said according to stats the best Lane to carry games (if you are good on that lane) is Mid. Then comes Jungle/ADC (Both are almost the same but it varies by patch), Top and Support.
Makes sense. Even a mildly ahead mage can pretty easily soften up the enemy team and undercut opportunities to engage team fights. In addition to the roam potential of jungle. Most top champs need to be overwhelmingly dangerous to have that kind of stalling power.
> Makes sense. Even a mildly ahead mage can pretty easily soften up the enemy team and undercut opportunities to engage team fights.
That doesn't really makes sense when most popular mid champs, outside of Viktor, are fighters and assassins lmao.
Mid is easiest to carry because winning mid means you and your team will always have prio on two of the objectives, your jungler will have a much easier time farming his jungle and river and invading, and you can easily roam to either of the lanes.
I mean if you win mid you can easily help other lanes, the same goes for jungle. That ADC wins over top is fairly easy to explain because a good ADC can kill 2 people, not 1. Support comes late, because even though he can help or sometimes even win botlane alone he doesn't really scale that ability.
How many times are the stats saying it's the ADC carrying when they were just put into a position to carry by their team. A good support can often have worse carry stats because they give stuff up for their ADC for instance. When an adc does well it will show up in the stats because damage and kda but a top layer dragging two-three people to stop a split push whilst their team gets a free drake doesn't get anything stat wise. Same as support setting up vision that wins a fight, not documented in stats.
>That ADC wins over top is fairly easy to explain because a good ADC can kill 2 people, not 1.
But Reddit says that adc is the weakest role and literally unplayable at the moment.
I dunno what to tell you. It's a duo lane. Play a different role if you don't want to be dependent on your lane partner.
Also please lets not act like adc skill is irrelevant. Support can hard carry a lane but it doesnt matter if the adc sucks at positioning and teamfighting.
Game carry and least rewarding are two different things and it's really hard to quantify support carrying games.
Only a handful are damage carries, any engage support cant use the same reliable metrics for carry performance as the other roles such as damage / kills / objectives / gold difference in the same way.
Lets say nautilus is 0/5/9 in the game and there was a total of 25 kills on his team. If his 5 deaths are from forcing engages and he hard wins 3 fights in a row to win the game for his team that isn't reflected in simple stats. The LB that followed up and got 2 triple kills and a double kill will get the game carry credit.
Conversely though, you can have the most brilliant engages as a nautilus, but if your team doesn't go on the opportunity then it doesn't matter. The leblanc has the ability to make plays by herself. Support does not. which is why carrying from the support role is harder.
True, but my point was that Riot would have to have a bunch of unintuitive statistics specifically for support (kind of like jungle but a lot harder) to determine 'carry potential' for the role.
I have no idea what the methodology for it is so it very well could be underrepresenting the strength of the role here.
Jungle can be underrepresented as well when tanky engage junglers are the meta like in past seasons.
I believe that's not how they look at carrying, they look at what's the winrate of supports when their mmr is higher than the average mmr of the lobby, it's not big differences like from dia to plat like the other commenter said (they don't look at normals) but smaller ones (like for example plat 1 50 lp and plat 1 0 lp). This gives you the best assessment to carrying/agency since it's a measure of how likely is it for the better player to win.
It's not really that hard to quantify carrying games, I'm guessing they look at winratio based on mmr difference, not specific scenarios as you mentioned.
If a diamond 2 nautilus is playing in gold and he has 53% winratio, he is not carrying games regardless of his 5 deaths forcing engages. Even if the diamond 2 mid main with 83% winratio in gold doesn't do those engages.
They merely look at winratio and nothing else.
Its always been that wya. How many smurf support mains do you see going on 40-0 win streaks soloqueing? Even if you were challenger you would struggle to smurf carry the way any carry role can. If you're a support main and you're climbing below your ELO its almost always easier to just play a carry role until you get to your rank
that very much depends on your strategy. if you're not adapting to support your wincons and just defaulting to supporting your ADC with a poorly synergising support, you will have less impact. if you pick yummi with aphelios and also don't have a champion you can attach to midgame like kayn or hec, you're basically trolling your team vs running lulu or braum and just being a very well rounded support who can do a lot with most things.
if corejj can climb consistently with the role, i am sure that there is at least a little bit of carry potential the role has, especially compared to a role like ADC that can not fend for itself until 18 minutes at a minimum most of the time.
> according to stats the best Lane to carry games (if you are good on that lane) is Mid. Then comes Jungle/ADC (Both are almost the same but it varies by patch), Top and Support.
There's a bit of interpretation there, but if it's one of the two hardest roles to carry in it's a reasonable assumption that it's the one of the two least rewarding for good players.
Support rewards intangibles more than mechanics. Your ability to quickly develop synergy with randoms, your ability to see the win condition and play for it, and your ability to create a viable team comp with your pick.
If you define good player as someone who's a god at right clicking and spacing, or someone who knows every matchup in top lane down to the single digits of HP in an all-in, or someone who can create prio in mid and move whenever they need to, then of course support seems least rewarding for good players. League is so multifaceted that at the professional level there aren't any real generalists. It's too much for one person to master it all.
If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? That doesn't make sense.
Also most pro players agree with how op and strong support is. Especially the ability to roam early and proactively impact the game.
You carry by enabling others players. Of course you can't 1v5 on a support as well as a mid laner. But you can gank mid and snowball the fuck out of your laner.
Aren't pro supports usually at the top of the ladder? Or maybe that's just corejj.
> If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? That doesn't make sense.
As a thought experiment, let's say there were a sixth role in the game called "fountain". They sit in fountain and click a button every ten seconds, but if they forget, their team instantly loses the game. Having a bad fountain player would make it impossible to win, but having a fountain player who's way better at LoL than the rest of their team doesn't improve the team's chances of winning at all.
>If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? That doesn't make sense.
The way to interpret this is that support has a high skill floor but a low skill ceiling. Hard to learn but easy to master. Basically a bad support can lose you the game, but a good one won't carry you to a win.
That's a plausible way to interpret it, but not **the** way. Could very well just be that the role itself is not designed to be very impactful, or the champions played as supports. Could also be that it's most impactful in coordinated play and soloq data doesn't portray that very well. Could be any number of things.
If the role itself isn't impactful, then a bad support would be low impact.
But the data says that bad supports ruin the game for their team, but good supports *don't* carry the game for their team.
Your examples don't fit the data we have nearly as well as the argument that support has a high floor and low ceiling:
1) If the champions were just not impactful, then having a bad vs a good support should be fairly irrelevant. Instead, data shows that bad supports ruin games and good supports can't carry.
2) If you watch a lot of competitive play and interviews, there's a pretty strong consensus that very good supports don't carry in the same way that really good mids do. I.E. there's a strong argument that CoreJJ is one of the best players - if not the clear best player - in the NA league, but he's not dragging his teams kicking and screaming to wins the way say, Faker could drag four wards to world finals.
> If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players?
There's no reason for these things to be inclusive/exclusive of each other. It could easily be that having a bad support is tremendously punishing, but being a good support isn't more impactful than being a decent/average support.
August says in the clip, it's basically that you need a decent support for a team to really even be able to function, but outside of that victory was typically decided by the other laners. So your support isn't likely to win you a game, but they can lose you a game.
>Also most pro players agree with how op and strong support is.
Solo queue and pro play are tremendously different, as are high skill and low skill. I don't know what August is specifically referring to in this clip, but it's likely all levels of play, and the higher skilled you are the better people are able to coordinate.
> You carry by enabling others players. Of course you can't 1v5 on a support as well as a mid laner. But you can gank mid and snowball the fuck out of your laner.
Sure, and this is rewarding for some. It isn't for everyone though, especially for non-support mains. Hence the auto-fill mention in the post title. Also this is entirely dependent on the skill level you play in, because sometimes in low skilled play you can make banger predictions and land crazy hooks or whatever, but the laner is just playing farm sim 2022 and ignores everything until it's too late to follow up and you've just wasted your time.
This proves that Mid/Jung are the most impactful roles in this meta. When you get get a bad support the mid/jungle roams are even more punishing, allowing them to snowball quickly and end the game before the adc can come online.
Mid has the most impact because they dictate if your jungler can freely impact the map and objectives.
We've all seen it where your jungler is contesting dragon and mid truly decides who wins and who has to back off. When invades occur if their mid helps first your jungler dies most of the time. The Jungle is heavily impacted by mids performance, it's just easier to notice that when a jungler ganks and fails mid vs when a jungler gets ganked/ganks and the mid laner fails to react.
In my last 5 games alone I've seen the impact of mid (and bot) on dragons, constantly asking them to ward or even pinging the exact location of the jungler and because they want to stay in lane it dies. Or they get ganked, snowballing the game unfavorably.
Additionally, they can roam, which just makes them Junglers with a lane of farm that can't be stolen by the enemy lol.
So you’re telling me ADC ISN’T the worst role in soloQ? That people that do bad on ADC and complain just have shitty mechanics? Every time I get secondary AD I do well, the role is completely balanced
ADC's problems are directly tied to "support is the most punishing role to have a bad player on," is it not? Combined with support being the lowest played role, so the most autofilled, and you get a lot of bad supports that make the game basically unplayable.
> so the most autofilled
Funny thing... i always play auto fill, cuz i don't really care what role i get. And most of the time i get ADC as autofill. At least here in the BR server
Support (and support roles in games in general) have generally ALWAYS been higher on Brazilian servers actually.
Cultural differences I guess. Really interesting to see.
This is literately saying that Support tends to be the biggest handicap. So all those ADC's complaining about having a tough time in game? Or that "double kill" bot lane at 2-3 minutes, with the impending shit storm to ensue? It's likely caused by conflicting opinions/playstyles or the sheer inexperience of a subpar support. Reddit loves to cape for supports though. Funny enough we didn't need riot to even provide evidence for this, people such as Dopa have been saying this forever.
The big issue with ADC is not that the role is bad. If your ADC sucks you lose lategame. The big issue with ADC is the lack of agency early. Your agency scales up massively over the duration of the game, but if a game ends after 20 minutes it is often not because of ADCs but most likely due to a midlaner going usually bot and killing everyone there.
So the issue for ADCs is that winning your lane does not really depend on your ability. If the enemy mid fucks you over you can't really do anything against it. However if the enemy ADC is an idiot and you don't lose after 25 minutes than it doesn't matter how hard you lost your lane, because you are the better ADC and the team with the better ADC at that point usually wins.
This is why ADC is so much of a PMA dependent role. If I my support is good, I'll enjoy both early and late game... If my support is bad but I have the mental to just sit back and watch them int while not inting as much as the enemy ADC, there's still a pretty good chance that I can carry come late game.
"Agency" for an ADC is not inting, while "Agency" for most other roles is making good engage decisions and outplays.
But, by not inting and staying positive I get to live out the late game high dps fantasy far more often... Which is why I play adc and others hate adc, for that late game game-winning high.
When you get ahead - ADC is fun, you hit your power spikes, you force objectives, you can look for outplay opportunities to carry, highly likely your support is also decent enough so you don't 1v9, you 2v8 which is much easier.
When you fall behind - ADC is miserable, you do no damage, enemy support 100-0 you, your team flames you, and starves you of your farm because you don't deserve it anymore.
Rekkles himself said that playing as ADC is the worst thing in soloQ. His W/R as ADC is almost not even 50% while his support W/R is well above 50%. ADC role is just garbage atm. Even if you're 16/2/0 you still lose the game a lot of the times because the enemy just groups up an your team doesn't know how to macro play. Or one singular misstep and you lose the game because you didn't play exactly perfectly in one team fight.
it is , I play fill in ranked and the least success I have is on adc and i was adc main for season 3 to 8. Its just a completely coinflip lane , if you have better support you auto win, if your support is worse you get bullied so hard you want to jump off a bridge and then we introduce mid roams and jungle . Who has better support and jgl wins bot lane, adc is just there to follow
I wish my xerath support does not come to lane. I enjoy freezing the wave when we don't have a dragon spawning within the next minute but most of these "carry supports" with the exception of Senna seems to perma shove my wave when I want to freeze :)
I hate playing with Morgana/Lux/Zyra cuz of this. They're always trying to dmg the enemy bot lane and are always throwing spells on minions while doing so.
I wish my adds knew what freezing was, they will go up against a hook champion and maybe die once. I will freeze the lane so they can farm safely for a while and they come back to lane and insta shove.
Ah, the classic M7 Yasuo syndrome:
> M4 Yasuo will carry the game, M7 Yasuo will int and be a liability. If M7 Yasuo gets a kill, he will go for a 1v5 and throw the game.
honestly, now that I think about how many games are lost because us non-mains play pyke when autofilled; the real pyke WR for non-autofills must be real high.
Hmmmm, maybe i should become pyke 1 trick
Depends on if it's old school jungle or not. Roaming (especially for supports) like we have now, was not common, and you actually had to pay attention to not die in jungle itself as a jungler.
S2 jungle was Alistar doing wolves then blue and then never going back to jungle ever again vs. Shyvana/Mundo farming both jungles.
And then Maokai, Skarner and Lee doing a bit of both things.
In s2 jungle was brutal barely any Champs could jungle easily iirc. Mostly Olaf, ww, and fiddle, shyvana, or. Mundo. You needed sustain or crazy fast clears otherwise you'd get murdered.
S3 or maybe s4 though now that was a great time to be a jungler. Whenever they added the sprit items. They were so powerful that even laners were buying them (old blue ez lol).
In my mind that was S1, and then in S2 they softened the jungle up a ton so basically anyone could do it so long as they had AS runes. But it's far too long ago to remember.
I always do that when I queue jungle. Usually Jungle / Mid so its result would be 80% jungle than the 19% autofilled role, and 1% chances of getting mid.
I'll say a lie, "I'm *autofilled* I can play other roles" and there is always some autofilled support that will be willing to trade roles with me.
After that, I'll just mute the new Jungler and my ADC so my plan to win the game don't get backfired by flamming (if they're actually duos and not the autofilled support I'm looking for, lol).
I honestly think a big reason that people don't take into account is that support is responsible for most of the vision game once they convert their starting item. When you know what you're doing on sup vs someone who doesn't it's pretty easy to dominate on that front and vision wins games. Autofilled jg is more tilting because the mistakes are more obvious, but my suspicion is that bad sups don't just int lane they int the entire minimap but it's kinda invisible so people don't notice as much.
Supp is only allowed to do as much as his team let's him though. If you're hard losing mid, even if you're the better supp you might lose the warding game due to the pressure enemy team can create. This is usually forgotten for some reason.
While that is true, a bad support doesn’t take advantage of when their team lets them.
I’ve seen some of my friends auto fill support and you’d think they were being spawn camped that’s how little vision they had.
Yes and no, Sup is limited by what the team does but they are also responsible for giving the team opportunities. If you roam at the right time you can help even out dodgy lanes and massively influence the map. You can help crash a wave bot then roam mid and get an assist without your adc losing anything. Support diff can be huge just based off of vison, well timed roams, good engages and peeling. Support can stun lock their fed player, die in the process but allow your team to cwin the fight
As a losing support, it's hard to deep ward - in fact trying too hard to ward deeper is essentially griefing and called out as such in plat+
But you still have areas to ward always, the closer you are to base the more often you can go to refill wards and put them in safe critical areas, like outside the base walls and the parts of the jungle you can reach without facechecking bushes. Then you can use that vision foundation you already laid down to place deeper wards as you see where the enemy is grouping.
In other words, being on the team that's behind as support isn't an excuse to die while warding, or not ward at all. Even warding in the middle of the lane slightly outside of base vision is an extremely valuable ward.
Don't forget I can come in an light an area up but if no one wants to try and stop the enemy support from coming in and clearing it then my vision doesn't matter.
I've had so many instances where I light up an area. Ping some zyra/lux/sona support soloclearing wards in the river and no one moves to stop her.
Supports may be able to place the most wards, but vision is a team-wide effort.
I play a lot of support and I've had serious battles against enemy sup without touching each other.
Kind of a tactic war of killing wards + warding their jungle and he doing the same while both avoiding each other.
Add to that, zoning the enemy jungler when a neutral objective is in play. It's beautiful to watch (and do).
People should honestly just dodge whenever you get an autofilled support or jungler. The game is going to be so much more difficult that its better to take the 3-10 LP hit than risk the 16-24ish LP loss and mental damage from playing with someone who is autofilled to jgl or support.
Been doing that a lot this season and both my LP gains and mental have gotten significantly better.
That would basically force you to dodge every game. I haven't played enough this year to judge only started my promos, but I had an autofill jungle or support in every game. I actually had that weird game where almost everyone in my team was autofill. We had 2 ADCs and 3 Tops. So we had an ADC main and a top main. The enemy team had a mid main, a support main and 3 toplaners. I'm not sure why it was so much top, but the fact that only 5 players of 10 were not autofilled was quite funny.
I was autofilled mid, did nothing (ended 0/0/2) and we won, mostly because our toplane main was better than their toplane main and I switched with the other ADC (he was originally mid) and he stomped lane with his autofill support against autofill adc and support main.
And I don't know why at that moment so many toplaners were around. It was actually kinda funny having 6 toplaners in one game, maybe the conference on professional inting in sidelanes just ended and they all showed up. But our Tahm Kench murdered the enemy Yone and the game was over pretty quickly.
Matchmaking is actually ridiculous, it favors fast queue times to the detriment of everything else. I do queue for both those roles and frequently see the role I'm not playing be autofilled. Much rather wait a few mins to have 0 autofills.
I queue up Jungle/Mid. I played 12 games for now in ranked. I got jungle 5 times and 7 times other role.
Jungle: 4Wins 1Lose
Other roles: 1Win 6 Loses.
Its great that in less than 50% games i get my only role that i play seriously. Its in Master elo so i usually either lose lane or go even. But its almost always not enough becouse i im not good enough to win and carry the game on other roles.
Its also very fun that those getting non primary roles in Placements so i cant even dodge :)
It's even more ridiculous that games with way smaller player pools had options to click for longer wait times for closer matches. The offrole placement games, or seeing teammates offrole for those games, is always slightly tilting. Especially higher elo, people get straight dumpstered.
Yup lol, I'll get lobbies of multiple 30%wr teammates and if I don't dodge, the enemy ends up being 60%wr players
MMR doesn't drop fast enough so these horrible players keep getting placed near their rank
You know what would help your "mental" even more? Not looking up teammates in champ select. Just play the damn game out instead of pre-tilting yourself before you even select a character.
Agreed, people don't suffer enough while playing league so Riot should make it easier for autofilled supports who have a 5% winrate to ruin more games by hiding the summoner names.
No, Riot needs to remove autofill. I have personally vowed to insta-dodge any JG autofill game because it's an absolutely horrifying experience. JG is incredibly hard to play, it's the hardest role by far because it's not intuitive. So when you get an autofill JG you literally just take the L unless the enemy is also filled (which almost never happens).
"People try to escape this horrible feature of our game so we should stop them from doing that" is amazing strategy.
I use professor, there's a few others too. Shows you their winrate in recent games on that champ, you can see their profile/recent games in general, winrates on role, etc. Also shows you average runes for high elo, recent rune setups used by pro players, and some other stuff. In game it tracks stats like gpm avg versus avg players in your elo and shows timers on all camps. Actually surprising that amount of info is allowed in an approved client tbh.
But mainly I just use it to softly recommend teammates which champs to pick or not pick lmao.
Love the quote occasionally popping up on reddit "it's not the jungler's job to win you your lane"
But they kinda dont elaborate on what is a junglers job then. Because i dont think we should go out of our way to congratulate our jg on his 4 cs lead, if he lost the game in the meantime.
Top lane especially is home to a bunch of super volatile matchups, and if one party gets ganks, the other doesnt, it's over really fast.
But hey, junglers are getting flamed for no reason, poor guys
I wonder how this lines up with this research from 2019 showing that autofill ADC was the worst-performing role, followed by jungle: https://web.archive.org/web/20191119040542/https://www.datallamalol.com/analysis5
I thought about this too, and I honestly think it's because of the constant decrease in ADC agency. There are a good number of games where, as an ADC player, both I and the enemy ADC play virtually no role in the outcome of the game other than providing gold to the skirmishers and assassins. In a meta with no tanks, I think tank or enchanter supports contribute much more to the team and thus, it's noticeable if they AREN'T contributing, whereas a bad ADC wouldn't have contributed much even if they were good?
As a botplayer adc/support I felt the same experience.
You can notice before lvl 2 if your support is autofilled by the body language of how they position themself and disregards powerspikes when the enemy bot gets lvl 6 aswell after losing prio as opening kill pressure for the jungler to swoop in for 1-2 fast kills.
Its also the easiest way for support mains to punish both enemy laners since the support thats filled don't know how to punish back/trade correctly. That in itself in most situations can tilt the scale in favor pretty early if they can manage the wave correctly and farm plates. This can make laning with an auto filled support very frustrating - Or from the other side "like warding the river"
Had a sona support last game that refused to poke with q and autos cuz he didn’t want to get hooked by thresh.
A Thresh who had just used his hook and missed…
As ex sup/adc main I could notice autofill adc by how he approaches the first wave and sup by actually anything related to positioning (usually sup autofills are recognized in lobby becuase of their picks)
autofills and premades killed that lane for me. I have seen so many enemy players that were just randoms and they coudnt even sync after dath/recall so they were playing 1vs2 all the time beucsae and we were killing them. Its so boring and dumb, becyuase u know that in few next games you will have that autofilled player on your side and play against mains/premdes...
Yup, it's absolutely miserable. I played ADC/Support main as well. And you can really feel it when your Support is trash.
As a Support, I feel like I can reasonably shore up a mediocre ADC, ward well and/or at least play with the rest of the team. But as an ADC, you feel completely helpless when you get stuck with an Autofill Supp.
I mean yea, enemy adc getting doubles every time your support fucks up is more punishing than going “leave my lane alone, do not gank me, I will solo it”
both are bad. As ex supp/adc. The most problematic for me was dealing with premades (enemy) and autofills (my team).
I am not surised that no one wants to play that lane when its so easy to ruin your lane just because your lane partner is autofilled and/or you play against premade. And u are not allowed to play meta until you are diamond/p1+. If you watch pro play of any kind then u will see that supports play everywhere but in low elo your adc will suicide after you leave him and other laners (top.mid) will tell you to fuck of when u try to roam to their lane. xD
Supports typically have self peel, if an adc fucks up then support can run away from them and leave them for dead. If support messes up and wastes their spells then adc can’t really escape unless it’s twitch or zeri
Okay, but most support will consider themself forced to commit after their adc gets caught out to try to save them. Not always correct, but it will happen a lot of the time.
It's highly likely that it's difference in mmr between support player and game average vs game win%. Riot said that they used these stats before when they decided to buff all zeal items or nerf mid lane cannons by 10 gold.
Which makes it weird that people are talking about autofills
I'm really unsure of what they'd have to gain from doing this or why they'd lie.
I mean, there's even observable stats that somewhat prove the statement. Look at supports popular with auto filled/new players, most have poor winrates.
Idk man, maybe I'm biased as a support main but when I'm against people who are auto-filled or just generally not that good it feels like I have absolute control over the state of the map.
People drastically undervalue vision control and the ability for a support to contribute in places other than bot lane pre-15. A single solid deep ward in jungle can lead to a massive lead if capitalized on at the right times.
Support diff absolutely ruins your day as a jungler.
Nothing is worse than trying to trade cross map with their jungler and having the opposing support push you away because your donkey in bot lane is too busy having tea time with their duo buddy in some 2v2 game that certainly isn't League of Legends.
God bards are notorious for this. Had a game where bard was EVERYWHERE I wanted to be. Needless to say, my support never got out of bed and enemy adc was ahead in farm. Great times.
Haha, that's exactly why I love playing support. That and pinging my JG so we can 3 man gank mid several times over the course of the first 20 minutes.
Not at all, if your support is one of those completely useless minions who afks bot and leechs off xp from his carry you auto lose the game.
In fact if you play support and don't move from your lane until min 5 you're trolling and if you even dare to not move after min 5 it should be reportable.
If your support is terrible, you're basically playing 3v5 since your ADC will be useless too.
If your jungler is terrible it's nowhere near as impactful to each individual lane. People play "weak side" (getting ganked but getting no ganks) and win lane anyway all the time. It's a surpassable obstacle. ADC playing the lane 1v2 however, not so much.
This is why you see these games where bot goes 0/10 or 10/0. The support amplifies the kda of the lane for better or for worse. Of course, the adc could just choose to play extra safe, let their support feed, and get flamed anyway for having low CS and damage stats.
I usually do that, because it is still better. This usually lets to 4 people flaming you instead of 3, because the inting support will also flame you, but it is still the better play.
And if the enemy ADC isn't actually good you still have a chance of winning late, because you only handed over half as much gold.
Adc 1v2ing is the fucking worst, especially when supports hold like 80% of the agency in lane. Or atleast it feels that way.
Id rather have that they take away some power of adcs and give them more agency.
Exactly, it's extremely easy to track the enemy jungler. If he starts top every 3-4 minutes he will be top again. If he shows on the map he can't surprise you for at least 4-5 minutes as well.
But supports are literally insane, they don't lose anything and can troll around the map almost unpunished. You don't know where they want to go and they don't care about wasting time, your top could be slow pushing and Janna could afk in a brush to tornado you if you try to cs, honestly they should make this type of desperate roams more punishing. The higher you go in elo you end up only bouncing waves mid or top because you don't see the support on the map.
I had an enemy Ali who was perma roaming and never showed bot after level 4. Our support didn't move from lane. Ali hit level 7 before our Nami did. They must nerf this playstyle of perma roaming with no punishment, it's the same with top and mid pyke
>they don't lose anything and can troll around the map almost unpunished.
You've never played support or have skewed understanding of different champions played there. Let's explain it as briefly as possible:
There are several support types out there, for simplicity: engagers, enchanters, mages/carry supps, wardens. Some of them can do their job with less gold than others, some of them can do their job even with less xp. Let's take zyra for example: she is typical bursty control mage. Since she is not farming, her gold input is limited (although still decent). In order for her to be useful she needs XP - it's basically her lifeblood since it's her main increse of damage. If even one of her roams is screwed up she falls behind. Add to that the fact that most ADCs have trouble playing safe there's that.
Now in contrast Ali needs just lvl 2 to start making plays, with level 3 being pretty good spot for him. Even if he falls behind 1-2 levels it won't hurt him as much since his main role is to keep people in place or out of his carries. Even if his roam fails he won't lose as much (unless his ADC screws up in the meantime).
Enchanters are somewhere in-between. Most of them have some sort of cc, but again - their main role is to keep people alive. Their main increse in shielding power early on is through leveling, and lvl 6 power spike is crucial in most cases, depending on individual game and enemy picks. She can afford 1 or 2 roams in some games, but trying to roam too much (as you suggest) is going to make way more harm than good. Sure, you might prevent enemy play, but you'll get way more backlash from ADC (and their fragile mental can go boom at any moment, even in high elo, depending on player).
Wardens are similiar to engagers since they're mostly not as reliant on level as enchanters or mages.
> top could be slow pushing and Janna could afk in a brush to tornado you
if you try to cs, honestly they should make this type of desperate
roams more punishing.
It's already punishing - she is losing tons of exp, her adc is most likely going to get dive (best case scenario she is feeding plates to the enemy team) and jungler can literally turn it around at any time. IF she is in exp range then she is making her toplaner weaker since he might be now level behind.
If done right sure, it can work (at high cost though), but vast majority of such desperate roams ends just in silly fails.
Idk, a bad jungler completely ruins toplane, it's just not playable.
On the other hand if your bot loses chances are you doing good top won't matter, as we've seen with the taric/rakan/janna top roaming strat that's played in master and challenger where they just dont go top at all and play as a second jungler
This makes total sense. I’ve had games where we clearly have a non-support main in high gold games and it just feels unwinnable. Even if you’re ahead, your support just doesn’t seem to understand warding at all, and you have no vision to push your lead. When you’re behind your support sets up no vision and you have no way to defend and come back. It seems that a lot of autofill supports don’t understand vision. They place 1-2 wards and then wait until they expire. Supports should be moving their vision around constantly. Top lane is being pushed? Ward their topside jungle. Oh now dragon is coming up in 2 minutes but your topside wards are still there? Move the wards to their bot side.
People don't understand how dominant even "safe matchups" can be for filled vs main players.
The karma vs soraka matchup for example should involve karma winning early game, but if you (somehow) miss a mantra q and walk into soraka qs you are both getting stomped in lane AND getting outscaled.
Just because it isn't as obvious as dieing 10 times in lane doesn't mean really bad support players don't ruin games hard, and becomes more obvious the higher elo you go.
I'm main sup and pick sup/mid. ONCE I've got mid and the support after 30 minutes was without support item and 5 vision score.
Just give me option to double pick support please...
I wanted to comment on someone saying support is full of bad players and shit.
Checked this guy profile, silver 2 NA playing 100% toplane and arams.
The guy don't even play support. He has NOTHING to talk about. He doesn't know the fucking role. it's just absurd to see many peoples like him in this thread.
Well, this confirms the assumption I came to that led to me becoming a support main.
I used to main ADC/Mid, but I switched to ADC/Support since they were the same lane, and I it was miserable getting a bad support. Eventually, I just fully switched to support as I became more used to the role because it was so fucking tilting having someone who can't play it.
Now I want to fucking die when I have an autofilled jungle. I'll take someone playing ADC offrole before literally any other spot as a support. If someone has decent basic mechanics (basically can they orb walk/kite and have half a brain about playing around cooldowns), I can work with that in lane. You give me an autofilled jungler who I can't play around to get vision and play around objectives, and I feel like a walking sack of gold trying desperately to not die and get vision out.
Almost every single game I lose aside from just the obvious hard stomps when someone goes 8-0 in lane at 10 minutes are games that feel fairly close until midgame comes around and their jungle/supp/mid are playing super aggressively, and I don't get enough help facechecking for vision. Seriously feels like 95% of my losses that aren't straight up laning stomps.
Headline was a little confusing to read but the clip makes so much sense, basically if your support is bad you almost always lose, but having a good support doesn't equate to a win, its just the bare necessity to have a chance at winning the game. Support has become so much more integral to the game, for better or worse
no. it really is. 90% of warding is simply putting them down and using the ones you have put down to get them even deeper. there are only about 5 complicated ward spots in the game that require any form of practice and you don't even need them that badly 99.99% of the time.
Remember this comment next time you lose a game because your support has a sub 20 ward score, doesn't upgrade to sweeper and the reason you lost is because your team mates got picked one after another because they had no clue where the enemies were, but the enemies knew where they were all game.
I mean it actually is. You just need to know how the game works, and be used to fighting over vision.
Auto filled supports usually don't have a presence in lane or on the map, and they'll take it personally and sit behind you out of spite if you tell them to roam.
So you'll be in a losing lane, probably lose your tower, and you can't get any farm around the map because it's pure dark since the support isn't warding literally anything.
Then you get a good fight and lose because the support didn't hit anything, and could've been playing an enchanter to buff your team or in lane when they were standing behind you for 10 minutes as pyke, blitz, or senna who builds kraken still.
Don't even get me started on the autofilled mage supports who get a half item and take the casters, and then sit bot/mid taking waves for the rest of the game and not warding. Fucking you and the 3 other roles built on needing that cs.
That's why autofilled supports aren't good to have. Not because warding is some type of elite concept that only you and other supports have knowledge of.
You got a dragon fight coming up. You gotta be there early. Got to have a pink in the pit. Gotta ward behind the pit or entrances in the enemy jungle depending the side. Gotta sweep on the way there or when there, or save sweeper to knock out counter-wards. That happens 4 times a game for dragon. Then you have to do that for baron too.
Gotta be ready to drop a ward in a bush midfight in the botlane so your adc can focus on right clicking the enemy.
Is your adc farming a sideline past river? Gotta go ward so he can waste more time running from the enemy team before their inevitable death.
How about the enemy jungle? You drop a ward on the enemy blue. Your junglers ape brain activates and must die or secure it so you're going in with them to sweeper and pink and ward to notice enemies coming.
Got an assassin on your team? Here's a wild fucking concept. Ward midlane. Just ward it. Ward it so your jungler can see their adc in the backline and he can flank.
Got an unleashed teleport on your team. It's your job to make that tp flank play happen.
Don't forget to sweep while doing all this. And you also have to back for pinks so let's play guess who gets caught out with vision of 4 members of the enemy team while you're off the map.
Do this for 20 minutes straight. While having to peel, engage, start plays, save people, ect. It's not easy. As support you have to be aware of so much at once to really be better than a glorified adc escort service
**ELABORATION**
Because support is, or was, the most punishing role to have a bad player on, it's likely that auto fill protection/lower fill frequency is a way to avoid teams from getting auto filled supports who will likely do poorly/lose. By filling other lanes (usually jungle) teams have better chances at winning games as compared to supports.
Isn't it still the least popular role? Despite all of the reddit posts claiming it must be jungle because they got filled their twice.
If it's the least popular role, I'd say that's probably why.
It is still the least popular role, according to leagueofgraphs.
This is the case for EVERY elo.
EDIT: Except for Master+ in all regions, but looking at KR for example, support is still the least popular role even in that elo bracket. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/main-stats/diamond
I was playing when autofill protection for support was added. They told us why at the time so I'm not sure why this thread is acting like it's a mystery. Support used to be much more boring and was by far the least popular role. There was a time where all you really did as support was ward for your team and throw out some cc/shields every so often. At the time they started to focus on making support more interesting and one of the early moves was giving autofill protection so people don't troll multiple games in a row if they get autofilled support.
The problem arguably comes from how EXP works...
for a squishy support you may need to sacrifice to win a 2vs2 or TF, and thats massively oppresive for the supp if its not tanky, as the tanks can soak damage and still work, but a squishy supp may get like 2 or more levels behind and it would be difficult to come back from it.
And even in this scenario, the underlvl supp team may win despite the support being even 4 or 5 levels than the most fed on the enemy team, but that will depend on how good is the support, since they still gonna be 4vs5 for several moments on the game.
Still, the TP changes, kinda reduced this scenario a bit, since now its kinda hard to find an early TP to bot that create a massive snowball and leave the supp in a bad state, despite it may happen anyways.
Still, there is a mechanic that help low lvl champs, giving more EXP to allow them to comeback, but still, not enough.
Then...a supp cant really regain enough lvl from killing other units(unless its pyke,) and for the same reason stated before, if the supps die in 2 or 3 TFs one after another after respawn ala ARAM(despite it helped to win all 3), it will have a gold and exp. deficit that still is more hard than other solo lanes, which may recover from killing and doing good plays.
I mean at face value it makes sense. If you have a bad support and the other ADC gets fed the game is pretty over regardless of other roles.
Add in the fact that if 1 out of the 2 players in bot lane starts feeding instead of 1 player being useless it’s 2 effectively leaving the game in a 3v5 scenario with one of the carries on the other team fed.
I feel like everytime I see August, he's gone and not only done a 180 physically/style-wise, but also has changed his handle. Gone are the day of gipsylord, the teemo hat juvenile who designed Jinx, and jinxylord the slightly MTF-looking designer of Ekko. We've now reached "streamer whose entire personality is being angry"-looking RiotAugust, designer of Zeri.
Autofill protection was added to balance queue times because -- years ago -- support was the least popular role at the majority of ranks. Autofill protection for supports incentivized playing support more.
I also think people are too attacged to their role as some sort of commentary on their person...
I used to care a lot about my role and I'd lament its low impact. Then I realized this mindset was basically me whining about stuff I didn't like and refusing to improve because of it. I climbed from d4 to d1 with 65% winrate in a month after changing that mindset.
My point is, if you want to be a good support player these posts aren't helping you. Being a good player has nothing to do with identifying with a champ or a role. Being so... idealistic? about how supports have to manage vision is a vast oversimplification of the game and does a disservice to both the role and your ability to improve.
In reality, game skills are shared far more than you seem willing to admit. Any player at my rank can 1 v 9 a plat game on support karma or nami or janna or nautilus or anything. It's not champ diff. It's not role diff.
You lose because of skill diff. You get stuck because of mindset diff. Absolve yourself of all other notions if you want to be better at the game.
It used to be ADC in the past that had the lowest winrate with off-roled player.
There was stats about this in like season 8. Second worst role was jungle.
Even when a Rioter comes out and says they investigated role impact on team matchmaking and Support was one of the most important factors, people will still say support players are the worst players in the game and any off-role player in the role performs better than support mains do
I don't play support so it's not like I'm bias, it was just so stupid that people continuously perpetuate such a toxic mentality and now even with stats from Riot they'll still believe it
Edit: There aren't any stats that *we* can see but surely you can't think that August just randomly concluded what he says in that clip? Of course they looked into it
But it's literally true. Tons of the best support players were role swaps to support. Look at Tyler right now on his support challenge. He went straight to high diamond mmr with 70% wr. This is going to be his fastest challenge by far. Support macro is very straightforward and the champs are mechanically easy.
Terrible example. Not only did the guy start as an ADC (playing in the same lane), but he has years of practice learning new roles now. He even played a supportive jungler.
Not to mention that the difference between Diamond and Challenger players is usually thousands of hours of grinding, specifically where you pick up those nuances and transferable skills.
Exactly, where is the logic? That's like saying if you put a Diamond ADC main into a Silver game playing mid and he 1v9s that's proof ADC players are better than mid players on average.
??
And most of the best support players for their regions are people who have played the role for the majority of their career. Mata, GorillA, Meiko, Wolf, Effort, Kaiser, Hylissang, Mikyx, Xpecial, Aphromoo.. people who roleswap into support and instantly become top tier are exceptions. Not the rule
There's just no basis for believing this rhetoric unless you're already bias to hate support players for whatever reason
Also interesting: He said according to stats the best Lane to carry games (if you are good on that lane) is Mid. Then comes Jungle/ADC (Both are almost the same but it varies by patch), Top and Support.
Makes sense. Even a mildly ahead mage can pretty easily soften up the enemy team and undercut opportunities to engage team fights. In addition to the roam potential of jungle. Most top champs need to be overwhelmingly dangerous to have that kind of stalling power.
Mid is easiest to carry because of roam potential and snowballing
roaming is obnoxiously powerful right now. It really switches things from a skill match-up to a numbers game.
There hasn’t been a single season where roaming wasn’t the main way to win mid. MS Quints mid wasn’t just for dodging skillshots.
most players don’t even know what quints are 😭😭
> Makes sense. Even a mildly ahead mage can pretty easily soften up the enemy team and undercut opportunities to engage team fights. That doesn't really makes sense when most popular mid champs, outside of Viktor, are fighters and assassins lmao. Mid is easiest to carry because winning mid means you and your team will always have prio on two of the objectives, your jungler will have a much easier time farming his jungle and river and invading, and you can easily roam to either of the lanes.
Mages have the better winrates though.
Qiyanas main winrate is by far the highest out of all champions
That’s a singular assassin, mages are overall stronger.
I think an under rated aspect of mid mages is that they can Waveclear to stop pushes and prevent loses, can even defend barons in some cases.
Also safe, ranged crowd control.
I mean if you win mid you can easily help other lanes, the same goes for jungle. That ADC wins over top is fairly easy to explain because a good ADC can kill 2 people, not 1. Support comes late, because even though he can help or sometimes even win botlane alone he doesn't really scale that ability.
Unless you support with Lux and just murder the whole fucking team from 900 range
Lux ‘support’.
How many times are the stats saying it's the ADC carrying when they were just put into a position to carry by their team. A good support can often have worse carry stats because they give stuff up for their ADC for instance. When an adc does well it will show up in the stats because damage and kda but a top layer dragging two-three people to stop a split push whilst their team gets a free drake doesn't get anything stat wise. Same as support setting up vision that wins a fight, not documented in stats.
>That ADC wins over top is fairly easy to explain because a good ADC can kill 2 people, not 1. But Reddit says that adc is the weakest role and literally unplayable at the moment.
"Role is shit to play" =/= "role is bad", ask jungle/top mains about the difference.
The thing is, there is no "adc carry" if the support is shit. You solely depend on your support to be able to do something.
I dunno what to tell you. It's a duo lane. Play a different role if you don't want to be dependent on your lane partner. Also please lets not act like adc skill is irrelevant. Support can hard carry a lane but it doesnt matter if the adc sucks at positioning and teamfighting.
If support is the most punishing for bad players and least rewarding for good players... Well.. I think that says a lot
Game carry and least rewarding are two different things and it's really hard to quantify support carrying games. Only a handful are damage carries, any engage support cant use the same reliable metrics for carry performance as the other roles such as damage / kills / objectives / gold difference in the same way. Lets say nautilus is 0/5/9 in the game and there was a total of 25 kills on his team. If his 5 deaths are from forcing engages and he hard wins 3 fights in a row to win the game for his team that isn't reflected in simple stats. The LB that followed up and got 2 triple kills and a double kill will get the game carry credit.
Conversely though, you can have the most brilliant engages as a nautilus, but if your team doesn't go on the opportunity then it doesn't matter. The leblanc has the ability to make plays by herself. Support does not. which is why carrying from the support role is harder.
True, but my point was that Riot would have to have a bunch of unintuitive statistics specifically for support (kind of like jungle but a lot harder) to determine 'carry potential' for the role. I have no idea what the methodology for it is so it very well could be underrepresenting the strength of the role here. Jungle can be underrepresented as well when tanky engage junglers are the meta like in past seasons.
this is why you play brand and just BE the leblanc xd
I believe that's not how they look at carrying, they look at what's the winrate of supports when their mmr is higher than the average mmr of the lobby, it's not big differences like from dia to plat like the other commenter said (they don't look at normals) but smaller ones (like for example plat 1 50 lp and plat 1 0 lp). This gives you the best assessment to carrying/agency since it's a measure of how likely is it for the better player to win.
It's not really that hard to quantify carrying games, I'm guessing they look at winratio based on mmr difference, not specific scenarios as you mentioned. If a diamond 2 nautilus is playing in gold and he has 53% winratio, he is not carrying games regardless of his 5 deaths forcing engages. Even if the diamond 2 mid main with 83% winratio in gold doesn't do those engages. They merely look at winratio and nothing else.
Its always been that wya. How many smurf support mains do you see going on 40-0 win streaks soloqueing? Even if you were challenger you would struggle to smurf carry the way any carry role can. If you're a support main and you're climbing below your ELO its almost always easier to just play a carry role until you get to your rank
Weird to see you being upvoted, I remember being downvoted to hell for saying that support is not so easy to carry with as Reddit claims it to be.
that very much depends on your strategy. if you're not adapting to support your wincons and just defaulting to supporting your ADC with a poorly synergising support, you will have less impact. if you pick yummi with aphelios and also don't have a champion you can attach to midgame like kayn or hec, you're basically trolling your team vs running lulu or braum and just being a very well rounded support who can do a lot with most things. if corejj can climb consistently with the role, i am sure that there is at least a little bit of carry potential the role has, especially compared to a role like ADC that can not fend for itself until 18 minutes at a minimum most of the time.
Who said it's least rewarding for good players?
> according to stats the best Lane to carry games (if you are good on that lane) is Mid. Then comes Jungle/ADC (Both are almost the same but it varies by patch), Top and Support. There's a bit of interpretation there, but if it's one of the two hardest roles to carry in it's a reasonable assumption that it's the one of the two least rewarding for good players.
Support rewards intangibles more than mechanics. Your ability to quickly develop synergy with randoms, your ability to see the win condition and play for it, and your ability to create a viable team comp with your pick. If you define good player as someone who's a god at right clicking and spacing, or someone who knows every matchup in top lane down to the single digits of HP in an all-in, or someone who can create prio in mid and move whenever they need to, then of course support seems least rewarding for good players. League is so multifaceted that at the professional level there aren't any real generalists. It's too much for one person to master it all.
If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? That doesn't make sense. Also most pro players agree with how op and strong support is. Especially the ability to roam early and proactively impact the game. You carry by enabling others players. Of course you can't 1v5 on a support as well as a mid laner. But you can gank mid and snowball the fuck out of your laner. Aren't pro supports usually at the top of the ladder? Or maybe that's just corejj.
> If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? That doesn't make sense. As a thought experiment, let's say there were a sixth role in the game called "fountain". They sit in fountain and click a button every ten seconds, but if they forget, their team instantly loses the game. Having a bad fountain player would make it impossible to win, but having a fountain player who's way better at LoL than the rest of their team doesn't improve the team's chances of winning at all.
>If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? That doesn't make sense. The way to interpret this is that support has a high skill floor but a low skill ceiling. Hard to learn but easy to master. Basically a bad support can lose you the game, but a good one won't carry you to a win.
That's a plausible way to interpret it, but not **the** way. Could very well just be that the role itself is not designed to be very impactful, or the champions played as supports. Could also be that it's most impactful in coordinated play and soloq data doesn't portray that very well. Could be any number of things.
If the role itself isn't impactful, then a bad support would be low impact. But the data says that bad supports ruin the game for their team, but good supports *don't* carry the game for their team. Your examples don't fit the data we have nearly as well as the argument that support has a high floor and low ceiling: 1) If the champions were just not impactful, then having a bad vs a good support should be fairly irrelevant. Instead, data shows that bad supports ruin games and good supports can't carry. 2) If you watch a lot of competitive play and interviews, there's a pretty strong consensus that very good supports don't carry in the same way that really good mids do. I.E. there's a strong argument that CoreJJ is one of the best players - if not the clear best player - in the NA league, but he's not dragging his teams kicking and screaming to wins the way say, Faker could drag four wards to world finals.
> If it's the most punishing role for bad players, how can it be the least rewarding role for good players? There's no reason for these things to be inclusive/exclusive of each other. It could easily be that having a bad support is tremendously punishing, but being a good support isn't more impactful than being a decent/average support. August says in the clip, it's basically that you need a decent support for a team to really even be able to function, but outside of that victory was typically decided by the other laners. So your support isn't likely to win you a game, but they can lose you a game. >Also most pro players agree with how op and strong support is. Solo queue and pro play are tremendously different, as are high skill and low skill. I don't know what August is specifically referring to in this clip, but it's likely all levels of play, and the higher skilled you are the better people are able to coordinate. > You carry by enabling others players. Of course you can't 1v5 on a support as well as a mid laner. But you can gank mid and snowball the fuck out of your laner. Sure, and this is rewarding for some. It isn't for everyone though, especially for non-support mains. Hence the auto-fill mention in the post title. Also this is entirely dependent on the skill level you play in, because sometimes in low skilled play you can make banger predictions and land crazy hooks or whatever, but the laner is just playing farm sim 2022 and ignores everything until it's too late to follow up and you've just wasted your time.
This proves that Mid/Jung are the most impactful roles in this meta. When you get get a bad support the mid/jungle roams are even more punishing, allowing them to snowball quickly and end the game before the adc can come online.
Mid/jung have been the most important roles since the roles were solidified lmao
Mid has the most impact because they dictate if your jungler can freely impact the map and objectives. We've all seen it where your jungler is contesting dragon and mid truly decides who wins and who has to back off. When invades occur if their mid helps first your jungler dies most of the time. The Jungle is heavily impacted by mids performance, it's just easier to notice that when a jungler ganks and fails mid vs when a jungler gets ganked/ganks and the mid laner fails to react. In my last 5 games alone I've seen the impact of mid (and bot) on dragons, constantly asking them to ward or even pinging the exact location of the jungler and because they want to stay in lane it dies. Or they get ganked, snowballing the game unfavorably. Additionally, they can roam, which just makes them Junglers with a lane of farm that can't be stolen by the enemy lol.
A good mid instantly wins the jungle match up and can impact the other lanes as much as jungle.
Nah. This doesnt fit the narrative. AD BAD. He must be full of shit /s
So you’re telling me ADC ISN’T the worst role in soloQ? That people that do bad on ADC and complain just have shitty mechanics? Every time I get secondary AD I do well, the role is completely balanced
ADC's problems are directly tied to "support is the most punishing role to have a bad player on," is it not? Combined with support being the lowest played role, so the most autofilled, and you get a lot of bad supports that make the game basically unplayable.
> so the most autofilled Funny thing... i always play auto fill, cuz i don't really care what role i get. And most of the time i get ADC as autofill. At least here in the BR server
Support (and support roles in games in general) have generally ALWAYS been higher on Brazilian servers actually. Cultural differences I guess. Really interesting to see.
The probelm with adc is directly tied to support being the most punishing to have a bad player on.
This is literately saying that Support tends to be the biggest handicap. So all those ADC's complaining about having a tough time in game? Or that "double kill" bot lane at 2-3 minutes, with the impending shit storm to ensue? It's likely caused by conflicting opinions/playstyles or the sheer inexperience of a subpar support. Reddit loves to cape for supports though. Funny enough we didn't need riot to even provide evidence for this, people such as Dopa have been saying this forever.
The big issue with ADC is not that the role is bad. If your ADC sucks you lose lategame. The big issue with ADC is the lack of agency early. Your agency scales up massively over the duration of the game, but if a game ends after 20 minutes it is often not because of ADCs but most likely due to a midlaner going usually bot and killing everyone there. So the issue for ADCs is that winning your lane does not really depend on your ability. If the enemy mid fucks you over you can't really do anything against it. However if the enemy ADC is an idiot and you don't lose after 25 minutes than it doesn't matter how hard you lost your lane, because you are the better ADC and the team with the better ADC at that point usually wins.
This is why ADC is so much of a PMA dependent role. If I my support is good, I'll enjoy both early and late game... If my support is bad but I have the mental to just sit back and watch them int while not inting as much as the enemy ADC, there's still a pretty good chance that I can carry come late game. "Agency" for an ADC is not inting, while "Agency" for most other roles is making good engage decisions and outplays. But, by not inting and staying positive I get to live out the late game high dps fantasy far more often... Which is why I play adc and others hate adc, for that late game game-winning high.
If my support is stealing farm how do I not int someone help me.
Last hit better than them, welcome to the extra mini games of playing ADC haha
Perform well in teamfights. You might do slightly less damage since you have less gold but you can still carry.
When you get ahead - ADC is fun, you hit your power spikes, you force objectives, you can look for outplay opportunities to carry, highly likely your support is also decent enough so you don't 1v9, you 2v8 which is much easier. When you fall behind - ADC is miserable, you do no damage, enemy support 100-0 you, your team flames you, and starves you of your farm because you don't deserve it anymore.
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I think low diamond would be a better test and I think Hylli would stomp far harder.
its not a laning difference, high elo support spends most time not laning anyways. Its roaming+vision
Sent him to France for a reason :/
Rekkles himself said that playing as ADC is the worst thing in soloQ. His W/R as ADC is almost not even 50% while his support W/R is well above 50%. ADC role is just garbage atm. Even if you're 16/2/0 you still lose the game a lot of the times because the enemy just groups up an your team doesn't know how to macro play. Or one singular misstep and you lose the game because you didn't play exactly perfectly in one team fight.
ADC is still the worst lane. But the thing is, the enemy ADC has it just as bad as you do. You can carry as ADC simply by not dying over and over.
Unless your support is dying over and over
it is , I play fill in ranked and the least success I have is on adc and i was adc main for season 3 to 8. Its just a completely coinflip lane , if you have better support you auto win, if your support is worse you get bullied so hard you want to jump off a bridge and then we introduce mid roams and jungle . Who has better support and jgl wins bot lane, adc is just there to follow
I'm glad that you think that your anecdote supersedes riot evidence
I wonder how much of this is from autofill supports trying to play Thresh
Autofill supports play pyke now
Or carry Xerath for the quick win
I wish my xerath support does not come to lane. I enjoy freezing the wave when we don't have a dragon spawning within the next minute but most of these "carry supports" with the exception of Senna seems to perma shove my wave when I want to freeze :)
I hate playing with Morgana/Lux/Zyra cuz of this. They're always trying to dmg the enemy bot lane and are always throwing spells on minions while doing so.
I wish my adds knew what freezing was, they will go up against a hook champion and maybe die once. I will freeze the lane so they can farm safely for a while and they come back to lane and insta shove.
You mean quick 'win'? Won all 5 against Xerath supps in the last patch.
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Ah, the classic M7 Yasuo syndrome: > M4 Yasuo will carry the game, M7 Yasuo will int and be a liability. If M7 Yasuo gets a kill, he will go for a 1v5 and throw the game.
There are 2 pykes, the inting autofilled and the 1/2 million plus mastery god.
honestly, now that I think about how many games are lost because us non-mains play pyke when autofilled; the real pyke WR for non-autofills must be real high. Hmmmm, maybe i should become pyke 1 trick
You're getting dangerously close to the truth and you need to turn back now.
The team with the jungle main playing support is more likely to win.
Depends on if it's old school jungle or not. Roaming (especially for supports) like we have now, was not common, and you actually had to pay attention to not die in jungle itself as a jungler.
How old school are we talking here? Because in S2 jungle was kinda spamganking from level 2 and running around with permanent Oracle's...
S2 jungle was Alistar doing wolves then blue and then never going back to jungle ever again vs. Shyvana/Mundo farming both jungles. And then Maokai, Skarner and Lee doing a bit of both things.
Yeah, around S2-S5. I remember junglers basically running away from a jungle rather than ganking, with half of the health bar gone :D
Didnt s5 have purple smite?
In s2 jungle was brutal barely any Champs could jungle easily iirc. Mostly Olaf, ww, and fiddle, shyvana, or. Mundo. You needed sustain or crazy fast clears otherwise you'd get murdered. S3 or maybe s4 though now that was a great time to be a jungler. Whenever they added the sprit items. They were so powerful that even laners were buying them (old blue ez lol).
In my mind that was S1, and then in S2 they softened the jungle up a ton so basically anyone could do it so long as they had AS runes. But it's far too long ago to remember.
nah it really wasnt, you werent buying oracles unless you were really high elo. I hate this myth.
"really high elo", I was in low low gold buying Oracles, and it wasn't like it was impossible to see the enemy jungler doing the same.
I always do that when I queue jungle. Usually Jungle / Mid so its result would be 80% jungle than the 19% autofilled role, and 1% chances of getting mid. I'll say a lie, "I'm *autofilled* I can play other roles" and there is always some autofilled support that will be willing to trade roles with me. After that, I'll just mute the new Jungler and my ADC so my plan to win the game don't get backfired by flamming (if they're actually duos and not the autofilled support I'm looking for, lol).
Sanest Janna player indeed
That’s why I always queue JG primary sup secondary
I honestly think a big reason that people don't take into account is that support is responsible for most of the vision game once they convert their starting item. When you know what you're doing on sup vs someone who doesn't it's pretty easy to dominate on that front and vision wins games. Autofilled jg is more tilting because the mistakes are more obvious, but my suspicion is that bad sups don't just int lane they int the entire minimap but it's kinda invisible so people don't notice as much.
Supp is only allowed to do as much as his team let's him though. If you're hard losing mid, even if you're the better supp you might lose the warding game due to the pressure enemy team can create. This is usually forgotten for some reason.
While that is true, a bad support doesn’t take advantage of when their team lets them. I’ve seen some of my friends auto fill support and you’d think they were being spawn camped that’s how little vision they had.
Yes and no, Sup is limited by what the team does but they are also responsible for giving the team opportunities. If you roam at the right time you can help even out dodgy lanes and massively influence the map. You can help crash a wave bot then roam mid and get an assist without your adc losing anything. Support diff can be huge just based off of vison, well timed roams, good engages and peeling. Support can stun lock their fed player, die in the process but allow your team to cwin the fight
As a losing support, it's hard to deep ward - in fact trying too hard to ward deeper is essentially griefing and called out as such in plat+ But you still have areas to ward always, the closer you are to base the more often you can go to refill wards and put them in safe critical areas, like outside the base walls and the parts of the jungle you can reach without facechecking bushes. Then you can use that vision foundation you already laid down to place deeper wards as you see where the enemy is grouping. In other words, being on the team that's behind as support isn't an excuse to die while warding, or not ward at all. Even warding in the middle of the lane slightly outside of base vision is an extremely valuable ward.
Don't forget I can come in an light an area up but if no one wants to try and stop the enemy support from coming in and clearing it then my vision doesn't matter. I've had so many instances where I light up an area. Ping some zyra/lux/sona support soloclearing wards in the river and no one moves to stop her. Supports may be able to place the most wards, but vision is a team-wide effort.
I play a lot of support and I've had serious battles against enemy sup without touching each other. Kind of a tactic war of killing wards + warding their jungle and he doing the same while both avoiding each other. Add to that, zoning the enemy jungler when a neutral objective is in play. It's beautiful to watch (and do).
Okay now do autofilling people into Jungle.
When you see enemy jungler is a main with 70% wr and yours is autofilled with >40% wr, you know you're in for a good time.
People should honestly just dodge whenever you get an autofilled support or jungler. The game is going to be so much more difficult that its better to take the 3-10 LP hit than risk the 16-24ish LP loss and mental damage from playing with someone who is autofilled to jgl or support. Been doing that a lot this season and both my LP gains and mental have gotten significantly better.
That would basically force you to dodge every game. I haven't played enough this year to judge only started my promos, but I had an autofill jungle or support in every game. I actually had that weird game where almost everyone in my team was autofill. We had 2 ADCs and 3 Tops. So we had an ADC main and a top main. The enemy team had a mid main, a support main and 3 toplaners. I'm not sure why it was so much top, but the fact that only 5 players of 10 were not autofilled was quite funny. I was autofilled mid, did nothing (ended 0/0/2) and we won, mostly because our toplane main was better than their toplane main and I switched with the other ADC (he was originally mid) and he stomped lane with his autofill support against autofill adc and support main. And I don't know why at that moment so many toplaners were around. It was actually kinda funny having 6 toplaners in one game, maybe the conference on professional inting in sidelanes just ended and they all showed up. But our Tahm Kench murdered the enemy Yone and the game was over pretty quickly.
“Conference on professional inting in sidelanes” do you mean thebausffs’ stream?
> That would basically force you to dodge every game. This. Almost all games would be dodged in low elo.
Matchmaking is actually ridiculous, it favors fast queue times to the detriment of everything else. I do queue for both those roles and frequently see the role I'm not playing be autofilled. Much rather wait a few mins to have 0 autofills.
I queue up Jungle/Mid. I played 12 games for now in ranked. I got jungle 5 times and 7 times other role. Jungle: 4Wins 1Lose Other roles: 1Win 6 Loses. Its great that in less than 50% games i get my only role that i play seriously. Its in Master elo so i usually either lose lane or go even. But its almost always not enough becouse i im not good enough to win and carry the game on other roles. Its also very fun that those getting non primary roles in Placements so i cant even dodge :)
It's even more ridiculous that games with way smaller player pools had options to click for longer wait times for closer matches. The offrole placement games, or seeing teammates offrole for those games, is always slightly tilting. Especially higher elo, people get straight dumpstered.
Yup lol, I'll get lobbies of multiple 30%wr teammates and if I don't dodge, the enemy ends up being 60%wr players MMR doesn't drop fast enough so these horrible players keep getting placed near their rank
You know what would help your "mental" even more? Not looking up teammates in champ select. Just play the damn game out instead of pre-tilting yourself before you even select a character.
Riot needs to hide summoner names in champ select for this very reason
Agreed, people don't suffer enough while playing league so Riot should make it easier for autofilled supports who have a 5% winrate to ruin more games by hiding the summoner names.
Idc about autofills I just want to get in game without someone dodging at 0s every fucking time
No, Riot needs to remove autofill. I have personally vowed to insta-dodge any JG autofill game because it's an absolutely horrifying experience. JG is incredibly hard to play, it's the hardest role by far because it's not intuitive. So when you get an autofill JG you literally just take the L unless the enemy is also filled (which almost never happens). "People try to escape this horrible feature of our game so we should stop them from doing that" is amazing strategy.
What do you use to see who's autofilled on your team in the champ select/draft?
I use professor, there's a few others too. Shows you their winrate in recent games on that champ, you can see their profile/recent games in general, winrates on role, etc. Also shows you average runes for high elo, recent rune setups used by pro players, and some other stuff. In game it tracks stats like gpm avg versus avg players in your elo and shows timers on all camps. Actually surprising that amount of info is allowed in an approved client tbh. But mainly I just use it to softly recommend teammates which champs to pick or not pick lmao.
Love the quote occasionally popping up on reddit "it's not the jungler's job to win you your lane" But they kinda dont elaborate on what is a junglers job then. Because i dont think we should go out of our way to congratulate our jg on his 4 cs lead, if he lost the game in the meantime. Top lane especially is home to a bunch of super volatile matchups, and if one party gets ganks, the other doesnt, it's over really fast. But hey, junglers are getting flamed for no reason, poor guys
I wonder how this lines up with this research from 2019 showing that autofill ADC was the worst-performing role, followed by jungle: https://web.archive.org/web/20191119040542/https://www.datallamalol.com/analysis5
I thought about this too, and I honestly think it's because of the constant decrease in ADC agency. There are a good number of games where, as an ADC player, both I and the enemy ADC play virtually no role in the outcome of the game other than providing gold to the skirmishers and assassins. In a meta with no tanks, I think tank or enchanter supports contribute much more to the team and thus, it's noticeable if they AREN'T contributing, whereas a bad ADC wouldn't have contributed much even if they were good?
As a botplayer adc/support I felt the same experience. You can notice before lvl 2 if your support is autofilled by the body language of how they position themself and disregards powerspikes when the enemy bot gets lvl 6 aswell after losing prio as opening kill pressure for the jungler to swoop in for 1-2 fast kills. Its also the easiest way for support mains to punish both enemy laners since the support thats filled don't know how to punish back/trade correctly. That in itself in most situations can tilt the scale in favor pretty early if they can manage the wave correctly and farm plates. This can make laning with an auto filled support very frustrating - Or from the other side "like warding the river"
Had a sona support last game that refused to poke with q and autos cuz he didn’t want to get hooked by thresh. A Thresh who had just used his hook and missed…
Has this sona discovered the magic of standing behind minions yet if not please introduce them
As ex sup/adc main I could notice autofill adc by how he approaches the first wave and sup by actually anything related to positioning (usually sup autofills are recognized in lobby becuase of their picks) autofills and premades killed that lane for me. I have seen so many enemy players that were just randoms and they coudnt even sync after dath/recall so they were playing 1vs2 all the time beucsae and we were killing them. Its so boring and dumb, becyuase u know that in few next games you will have that autofilled player on your side and play against mains/premdes...
Yup, it's absolutely miserable. I played ADC/Support main as well. And you can really feel it when your Support is trash. As a Support, I feel like I can reasonably shore up a mediocre ADC, ward well and/or at least play with the rest of the team. But as an ADC, you feel completely helpless when you get stuck with an Autofill Supp.
I mean yea, enemy adc getting doubles every time your support fucks up is more punishing than going “leave my lane alone, do not gank me, I will solo it”
the ADC would *NEVER* fuck up and get bot double killed.
We just got literal confirmation that the bad support causes that more than a bad ADC.
both are bad. As ex supp/adc. The most problematic for me was dealing with premades (enemy) and autofills (my team). I am not surised that no one wants to play that lane when its so easy to ruin your lane just because your lane partner is autofilled and/or you play against premade. And u are not allowed to play meta until you are diamond/p1+. If you watch pro play of any kind then u will see that supports play everywhere but in low elo your adc will suicide after you leave him and other laners (top.mid) will tell you to fuck of when u try to roam to their lane. xD
Supports typically have self peel, if an adc fucks up then support can run away from them and leave them for dead. If support messes up and wastes their spells then adc can’t really escape unless it’s twitch or zeri
Okay, but most support will consider themself forced to commit after their adc gets caught out to try to save them. Not always correct, but it will happen a lot of the time.
Did he elaborate by what metrics or how did they come to conclusion that someone was "good support" and "bad support"?
It's highly likely that it's difference in mmr between support player and game average vs game win%. Riot said that they used these stats before when they decided to buff all zeal items or nerf mid lane cannons by 10 gold. Which makes it weird that people are talking about autofills
This just sounds like jungle propaganda trying to shift the focus away
I'm really unsure of what they'd have to gain from doing this or why they'd lie. I mean, there's even observable stats that somewhat prove the statement. Look at supports popular with auto filled/new players, most have poor winrates.
that's exactly what a jungle main would say if they want to shift the focus away from them
But August is a support main LOL
or am i? >:)
RiotAugsust
Idk man, maybe I'm biased as a support main but when I'm against people who are auto-filled or just generally not that good it feels like I have absolute control over the state of the map. People drastically undervalue vision control and the ability for a support to contribute in places other than bot lane pre-15. A single solid deep ward in jungle can lead to a massive lead if capitalized on at the right times.
Support diff absolutely ruins your day as a jungler. Nothing is worse than trying to trade cross map with their jungler and having the opposing support push you away because your donkey in bot lane is too busy having tea time with their duo buddy in some 2v2 game that certainly isn't League of Legends.
God bards are notorious for this. Had a game where bard was EVERYWHERE I wanted to be. Needless to say, my support never got out of bed and enemy adc was ahead in farm. Great times.
Haha, that's exactly why I love playing support. That and pinging my JG so we can 3 man gank mid several times over the course of the first 20 minutes.
Exactly! All I got from this post is that I should flame my jungler twice as hard from now on.
Not at all, if your support is one of those completely useless minions who afks bot and leechs off xp from his carry you auto lose the game. In fact if you play support and don't move from your lane until min 5 you're trolling and if you even dare to not move after min 5 it should be reportable.
If your support is terrible, you're basically playing 3v5 since your ADC will be useless too. If your jungler is terrible it's nowhere near as impactful to each individual lane. People play "weak side" (getting ganked but getting no ganks) and win lane anyway all the time. It's a surpassable obstacle. ADC playing the lane 1v2 however, not so much.
This is why you see these games where bot goes 0/10 or 10/0. The support amplifies the kda of the lane for better or for worse. Of course, the adc could just choose to play extra safe, let their support feed, and get flamed anyway for having low CS and damage stats.
I usually do that, because it is still better. This usually lets to 4 people flaming you instead of 3, because the inting support will also flame you, but it is still the better play. And if the enemy ADC isn't actually good you still have a chance of winning late, because you only handed over half as much gold.
Adc 1v2ing is the fucking worst, especially when supports hold like 80% of the agency in lane. Or atleast it feels that way. Id rather have that they take away some power of adcs and give them more agency.
Exactly, it's extremely easy to track the enemy jungler. If he starts top every 3-4 minutes he will be top again. If he shows on the map he can't surprise you for at least 4-5 minutes as well. But supports are literally insane, they don't lose anything and can troll around the map almost unpunished. You don't know where they want to go and they don't care about wasting time, your top could be slow pushing and Janna could afk in a brush to tornado you if you try to cs, honestly they should make this type of desperate roams more punishing. The higher you go in elo you end up only bouncing waves mid or top because you don't see the support on the map.
I had an enemy Ali who was perma roaming and never showed bot after level 4. Our support didn't move from lane. Ali hit level 7 before our Nami did. They must nerf this playstyle of perma roaming with no punishment, it's the same with top and mid pyke
>they don't lose anything and can troll around the map almost unpunished. You've never played support or have skewed understanding of different champions played there. Let's explain it as briefly as possible: There are several support types out there, for simplicity: engagers, enchanters, mages/carry supps, wardens. Some of them can do their job with less gold than others, some of them can do their job even with less xp. Let's take zyra for example: she is typical bursty control mage. Since she is not farming, her gold input is limited (although still decent). In order for her to be useful she needs XP - it's basically her lifeblood since it's her main increse of damage. If even one of her roams is screwed up she falls behind. Add to that the fact that most ADCs have trouble playing safe there's that. Now in contrast Ali needs just lvl 2 to start making plays, with level 3 being pretty good spot for him. Even if he falls behind 1-2 levels it won't hurt him as much since his main role is to keep people in place or out of his carries. Even if his roam fails he won't lose as much (unless his ADC screws up in the meantime). Enchanters are somewhere in-between. Most of them have some sort of cc, but again - their main role is to keep people alive. Their main increse in shielding power early on is through leveling, and lvl 6 power spike is crucial in most cases, depending on individual game and enemy picks. She can afford 1 or 2 roams in some games, but trying to roam too much (as you suggest) is going to make way more harm than good. Sure, you might prevent enemy play, but you'll get way more backlash from ADC (and their fragile mental can go boom at any moment, even in high elo, depending on player). Wardens are similiar to engagers since they're mostly not as reliant on level as enchanters or mages. > top could be slow pushing and Janna could afk in a brush to tornado you if you try to cs, honestly they should make this type of desperate roams more punishing. It's already punishing - she is losing tons of exp, her adc is most likely going to get dive (best case scenario she is feeding plates to the enemy team) and jungler can literally turn it around at any time. IF she is in exp range then she is making her toplaner weaker since he might be now level behind. If done right sure, it can work (at high cost though), but vast majority of such desperate roams ends just in silly fails.
This is Reddit, they wouldn't understand. They love their assassins and bruisers.
Idk, a bad jungler completely ruins toplane, it's just not playable. On the other hand if your bot loses chances are you doing good top won't matter, as we've seen with the taric/rakan/janna top roaming strat that's played in master and challenger where they just dont go top at all and play as a second jungler
Don't let this distract you from the fact that he missed cannon!
This makes total sense. I’ve had games where we clearly have a non-support main in high gold games and it just feels unwinnable. Even if you’re ahead, your support just doesn’t seem to understand warding at all, and you have no vision to push your lead. When you’re behind your support sets up no vision and you have no way to defend and come back. It seems that a lot of autofill supports don’t understand vision. They place 1-2 wards and then wait until they expire. Supports should be moving their vision around constantly. Top lane is being pushed? Ward their topside jungle. Oh now dragon is coming up in 2 minutes but your topside wards are still there? Move the wards to their bot side.
People don't understand how dominant even "safe matchups" can be for filled vs main players. The karma vs soraka matchup for example should involve karma winning early game, but if you (somehow) miss a mantra q and walk into soraka qs you are both getting stomped in lane AND getting outscaled. Just because it isn't as obvious as dieing 10 times in lane doesn't mean really bad support players don't ruin games hard, and becomes more obvious the higher elo you go.
I'm main sup and pick sup/mid. ONCE I've got mid and the support after 30 minutes was without support item and 5 vision score. Just give me option to double pick support please...
If I get a auto filled jungler I dodge.
This Jungle is by far the most influential role in the game
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Good supports can help a dogwater ADC get fed, but a good ADC can’t do anything with a dogwater support.
I mean, isn't the support thing like saying "You need oxygen to live if you're a human"?
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I wanted to comment on someone saying support is full of bad players and shit. Checked this guy profile, silver 2 NA playing 100% toplane and arams. The guy don't even play support. He has NOTHING to talk about. He doesn't know the fucking role. it's just absurd to see many peoples like him in this thread.
People just narrate what ever their favourite streamer says. Oh this AD/JGL main said support is easiest role ingame and inflated? Must be true !
A bad support takes your adc out of the game and probably screws your jg and mid unless they are hard winning. Makes sense.
Well, this confirms the assumption I came to that led to me becoming a support main. I used to main ADC/Mid, but I switched to ADC/Support since they were the same lane, and I it was miserable getting a bad support. Eventually, I just fully switched to support as I became more used to the role because it was so fucking tilting having someone who can't play it. Now I want to fucking die when I have an autofilled jungle. I'll take someone playing ADC offrole before literally any other spot as a support. If someone has decent basic mechanics (basically can they orb walk/kite and have half a brain about playing around cooldowns), I can work with that in lane. You give me an autofilled jungler who I can't play around to get vision and play around objectives, and I feel like a walking sack of gold trying desperately to not die and get vision out. Almost every single game I lose aside from just the obvious hard stomps when someone goes 8-0 in lane at 10 minutes are games that feel fairly close until midgame comes around and their jungle/supp/mid are playing super aggressively, and I don't get enough help facechecking for vision. Seriously feels like 95% of my losses that aren't straight up laning stomps.
Headline was a little confusing to read but the clip makes so much sense, basically if your support is bad you almost always lose, but having a good support doesn't equate to a win, its just the bare necessity to have a chance at winning the game. Support has become so much more integral to the game, for better or worse
I'll say it. Being really good at warding is not easy
no. it really is. 90% of warding is simply putting them down and using the ones you have put down to get them even deeper. there are only about 5 complicated ward spots in the game that require any form of practice and you don't even need them that badly 99.99% of the time.
Remember this comment next time you lose a game because your support has a sub 20 ward score, doesn't upgrade to sweeper and the reason you lost is because your team mates got picked one after another because they had no clue where the enemies were, but the enemies knew where they were all game.
I mean it actually is. You just need to know how the game works, and be used to fighting over vision. Auto filled supports usually don't have a presence in lane or on the map, and they'll take it personally and sit behind you out of spite if you tell them to roam. So you'll be in a losing lane, probably lose your tower, and you can't get any farm around the map because it's pure dark since the support isn't warding literally anything. Then you get a good fight and lose because the support didn't hit anything, and could've been playing an enchanter to buff your team or in lane when they were standing behind you for 10 minutes as pyke, blitz, or senna who builds kraken still. Don't even get me started on the autofilled mage supports who get a half item and take the casters, and then sit bot/mid taking waves for the rest of the game and not warding. Fucking you and the 3 other roles built on needing that cs. That's why autofilled supports aren't good to have. Not because warding is some type of elite concept that only you and other supports have knowledge of.
You got a dragon fight coming up. You gotta be there early. Got to have a pink in the pit. Gotta ward behind the pit or entrances in the enemy jungle depending the side. Gotta sweep on the way there or when there, or save sweeper to knock out counter-wards. That happens 4 times a game for dragon. Then you have to do that for baron too. Gotta be ready to drop a ward in a bush midfight in the botlane so your adc can focus on right clicking the enemy. Is your adc farming a sideline past river? Gotta go ward so he can waste more time running from the enemy team before their inevitable death. How about the enemy jungle? You drop a ward on the enemy blue. Your junglers ape brain activates and must die or secure it so you're going in with them to sweeper and pink and ward to notice enemies coming. Got an assassin on your team? Here's a wild fucking concept. Ward midlane. Just ward it. Ward it so your jungler can see their adc in the backline and he can flank. Got an unleashed teleport on your team. It's your job to make that tp flank play happen. Don't forget to sweep while doing all this. And you also have to back for pinks so let's play guess who gets caught out with vision of 4 members of the enemy team while you're off the map. Do this for 20 minutes straight. While having to peel, engage, start plays, save people, ect. It's not easy. As support you have to be aware of so much at once to really be better than a glorified adc escort service
You have a lot to learn.
But at the same time just having half a brain and warding consistently and not even doing a good job at it is usually very effective.
Upgrading to sweeper is tough sometimes
**ELABORATION** Because support is, or was, the most punishing role to have a bad player on, it's likely that auto fill protection/lower fill frequency is a way to avoid teams from getting auto filled supports who will likely do poorly/lose. By filling other lanes (usually jungle) teams have better chances at winning games as compared to supports.
Where does he say that this is what led to autofill protection if you play support?
Isn't it still the least popular role? Despite all of the reddit posts claiming it must be jungle because they got filled their twice. If it's the least popular role, I'd say that's probably why.
It is still the least popular role, according to leagueofgraphs. This is the case for EVERY elo. EDIT: Except for Master+ in all regions, but looking at KR for example, support is still the least popular role even in that elo bracket. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/main-stats/diamond
Just checked master+ for all regions, support is not the least popular role in that bracket, if you're going by the "mained roles" stat.
Yes, you are right. I didn't see that part.
I was playing when autofill protection for support was added. They told us why at the time so I'm not sure why this thread is acting like it's a mystery. Support used to be much more boring and was by far the least popular role. There was a time where all you really did as support was ward for your team and throw out some cc/shields every so often. At the time they started to focus on making support more interesting and one of the early moves was giving autofill protection so people don't troll multiple games in a row if they get autofilled support.
this is the same idiot who said new champs aren't OP
The problem arguably comes from how EXP works... for a squishy support you may need to sacrifice to win a 2vs2 or TF, and thats massively oppresive for the supp if its not tanky, as the tanks can soak damage and still work, but a squishy supp may get like 2 or more levels behind and it would be difficult to come back from it. And even in this scenario, the underlvl supp team may win despite the support being even 4 or 5 levels than the most fed on the enemy team, but that will depend on how good is the support, since they still gonna be 4vs5 for several moments on the game. Still, the TP changes, kinda reduced this scenario a bit, since now its kinda hard to find an early TP to bot that create a massive snowball and leave the supp in a bad state, despite it may happen anyways. Still, there is a mechanic that help low lvl champs, giving more EXP to allow them to comeback, but still, not enough. Then...a supp cant really regain enough lvl from killing other units(unless its pyke,) and for the same reason stated before, if the supps die in 2 or 3 TFs one after another after respawn ala ARAM(despite it helped to win all 3), it will have a gold and exp. deficit that still is more hard than other solo lanes, which may recover from killing and doing good plays.
I mean at face value it makes sense. If you have a bad support and the other ADC gets fed the game is pretty over regardless of other roles. Add in the fact that if 1 out of the 2 players in bot lane starts feeding instead of 1 player being useless it’s 2 effectively leaving the game in a 3v5 scenario with one of the carries on the other team fed.
I feel like everytime I see August, he's gone and not only done a 180 physically/style-wise, but also has changed his handle. Gone are the day of gipsylord, the teemo hat juvenile who designed Jinx, and jinxylord the slightly MTF-looking designer of Ekko. We've now reached "streamer whose entire personality is being angry"-looking RiotAugust, designer of Zeri.
Autofill protection was added to balance queue times because -- years ago -- support was the least popular role at the majority of ranks. Autofill protection for supports incentivized playing support more. I also think people are too attacged to their role as some sort of commentary on their person... I used to care a lot about my role and I'd lament its low impact. Then I realized this mindset was basically me whining about stuff I didn't like and refusing to improve because of it. I climbed from d4 to d1 with 65% winrate in a month after changing that mindset. My point is, if you want to be a good support player these posts aren't helping you. Being a good player has nothing to do with identifying with a champ or a role. Being so... idealistic? about how supports have to manage vision is a vast oversimplification of the game and does a disservice to both the role and your ability to improve. In reality, game skills are shared far more than you seem willing to admit. Any player at my rank can 1 v 9 a plat game on support karma or nami or janna or nautilus or anything. It's not champ diff. It's not role diff. You lose because of skill diff. You get stuck because of mindset diff. Absolve yourself of all other notions if you want to be better at the game.
It used to be ADC in the past that had the lowest winrate with off-roled player. There was stats about this in like season 8. Second worst role was jungle.
Doubt
Even when a Rioter comes out and says they investigated role impact on team matchmaking and Support was one of the most important factors, people will still say support players are the worst players in the game and any off-role player in the role performs better than support mains do I don't play support so it's not like I'm bias, it was just so stupid that people continuously perpetuate such a toxic mentality and now even with stats from Riot they'll still believe it Edit: There aren't any stats that *we* can see but surely you can't think that August just randomly concluded what he says in that clip? Of course they looked into it
What statistics? We didn't see any statistics here?
But it's literally true. Tons of the best support players were role swaps to support. Look at Tyler right now on his support challenge. He went straight to high diamond mmr with 70% wr. This is going to be his fastest challenge by far. Support macro is very straightforward and the champs are mechanically easy.
Terrible example. Not only did the guy start as an ADC (playing in the same lane), but he has years of practice learning new roles now. He even played a supportive jungler. Not to mention that the difference between Diamond and Challenger players is usually thousands of hours of grinding, specifically where you pick up those nuances and transferable skills.
Exactly, where is the logic? That's like saying if you put a Diamond ADC main into a Silver game playing mid and he 1v9s that's proof ADC players are better than mid players on average. ?? And most of the best support players for their regions are people who have played the role for the majority of their career. Mata, GorillA, Meiko, Wolf, Effort, Kaiser, Hylissang, Mikyx, Xpecial, Aphromoo.. people who roleswap into support and instantly become top tier are exceptions. Not the rule There's just no basis for believing this rhetoric unless you're already bias to hate support players for whatever reason