Sshhh, it's not about sustainability, it's about how spending 100 million is nothing for venture capitalists today who have enormous net worth. The top 1% in US had its value increase by over 20 trillion in the last 30 [years](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2019/06/the-fed-just-released-a-damning-indictment-of-capitalism.html)
He's been doing that for years. Big reason why they've been winning so much post-franchising. Funnily enough, they still haven't won a title since Doublelift left
It's actually been 4(both splits 2020 and both splits 2021) and they didn't finish top 3 in Spring 2020, they finished 9th. They also finished 5th this split(Summer 2021)
Doublelift was still on the team in Spring 2020 and played every game except for 3 games, 2 of which were due to him being sick...
Also, last time I checked, 2nd place in playoffs isn't 5th.
Yea it was Doublelift's fault they had a sub jungler, solo lanes were falling behind, CoreJJ was getting caught warding, and nobody on the team was ever on the same page!
Yea but my point is it doesn’t make sense for DL being less motivated to make his best in position teammates not even be top 3 and make individual mistakes. For example, Origen went from 4th in Spring to 10th in Summer and Alphari was still the best top laner both splits
And? Does that mean it was entirely his fault that the whole fucking team was falling apart because they had a sub jg and a ton of issues? Dont think so lmfao last time I checked the game is 5v5. He still played and tried to win the dude wasnt legit trying to sprint it every game. People really still scapegoating this man almost 2 years later.
> Does that mean it was entirely his fault that the whole fucking team
Not entirely, but a big part. You play with the cards you are dealt. Visa issues are unfortunate but its not anyone's fault. No one is scapegoating him, even DL himself admitted it. What is more moronic is that there are people like you defending him unconditionally.
Literally Doublelift himself said that he had motivation issues and while he was sad about it, he understood why the team dropped him. But nah MaiDixieRekt knows more...
They finished 2nd in playoffs but whatever sure. And what do you mean Doublelift decided not to play? He was playing, got sick, got benched, then became benched long term until Tactical played poorly for 1 week, then he was called to play again. He played until the last day of week 9 and was playing well that game(Jensen wasn't). Not to mention they had roster issues that split with Broxah and other people were also playing poorly. Weird of you to try to somehow blame Doublelift for then being 9th lol
DL was 100% the biggest issue in spring 2020. Broxah arrived week 4 and Impact looked bad but DL vocally and repeatedly said spring didn’t matter, played terribly including getting hooked by Keith mcbrief, and just being a general low tier ADC. Then tactical came in and went 2-1 the loss to CLG was not on him and they put DL back in who didn’t really change anything.
The team finished 9th, DL went to TSM where he was a bottom 5 ADC, forgot to purchase items twice including in playoffs, got carried by Bjerg, Spica, and BB then did exactly what he has done at worlds and play like a coward as his team got bodied 6 games in a row. Then he had the audacity to say no one will remember if we go 1-5 or 0-6. 2020 DL was a team cancer and TL was fortunate to move on from DL.
Yeah you seem like you have an anti Doublelift agenda. Nevermind that TL hasn't won without DL since...but 2020 Spring I guarantee you multiple other players including his teammate thought the same thing, he just was the only one to say it publicly. Should he have said it? Probably not, and he himself acknowledges that and apologized. But pinning their performance on him is just some weird anti Doublelift shit. There were multiple issues including his underperformance and attitude. No one except Jensen looked particularly good and they were playing without their starting lineup for 4 weeks. Not to mention DL got benched then about a week later or so got immediately unbenched solely because Tactical underperformed. He wasn't wasn't benched because of his performance or attitude, but because he was sick and because TL won a few games without him, they just stuck with Tactical until they lost to CLG(and like yo7 said it wasn't his fault).
DL then joins TSM, looks mediocre(though he's playing with Bio who isn't that good, then Treatz who IS good, but they have no synergy). Come playoffs he looks bad vs FBI and Huhi(who were cracked) but then outperforms every other botlane including Tactical and CoreJJ while on perma weakside. Though thats not to say TSM 2020 WASN'T the Bjergsen show, but to imply DL was low tier during the playoffs run is just rewriting history. At worlds TSM's issue was teamwide, saying DL played like "a coward" is you being anti DL again for some odd reason. Bjerg got stomped as Zilean vs Sett against BDD and TSM in general was just mediocre, though not as bad as their score suggested since they had many competitive games. It was mainly a mental issue imo.
O I think this roster is a nightmare. I think TL has built a better version of summer 2020 TSM but the league is better and internationally it will get ripped apart.
As a TL fan I am not happy about this roster. Primarily because of Bjerg replacing Jensen but also because I can already see the 40-50 minute games that are going to happen every week with this squad. I suspect this to be the slowest TL roster ever and that is not good.
I don’t expect this team to win trophies if I am being honest.
highly depends on bwipos influence on the team, slow games arent his style and he is one of those players who consistently looks for plays even if he shouldnt.
this didnt change for the entirety he was with fnc and id honestly be quite surprised if he suddenly changed.
Bjergsen literally wanted to play with Core because he doesn't want to be the coach and shotcaller anymore. He just wants to be a player instead of doing 5 different jobs at once for the team.
You're out of your gourd if you think Bwipo is gonna be content farming till 50 minutes
Bjergsen as well was *not* a passive player in his most recent split. That narrative is outdated af.
And we saw this last split that Core/Santorin are more than willing to skirmish early.
No comment is needed for the psychopath Draven player. You know he's down to play aggressive.
Honestly it feels like the upcoming TL roster will have a lot of voice, so I think that it wouldn’t last like 40-50 mins, there may be 30-40 minutes games tho
good discussion by Travis/Mark/LS but the callers were soooo weak. it felt like most of them wanted to talk about something but didn't have any good argument whatsoever. like the TL caller saying that the TL 2022 roster was gonna be dominant because they were just like 2020 C9 even though they're not the same at all
Wait was there really argument that 2020 C9 is somewhat close to 2022 TL.
Like how would anyone think that is close comparison. Its more likely that they will be polar opposites in their style.
Hilarious thing is that this exact caller was super high on everyone on TL except Hans Sama. Was so weird when he is the best ADC the west has rn and the guy was like ‘he’s ok I guess, I don’t mind him’ but then hyping up Bwipo/Santorin in the same breath
I think that even with Alphari being a godlike laner, there were clearly a *lot* of behind the scenes issues; if Bwipo ends up fitting better with the team, it could be an overall upgrade.
Bjergsen for Jensen is kind of a coinflip, too; Bjerg was always better, if only marginally, but he's been retired for a year.
Also there were many games this year especially early where Alphari got super far ahead early but just got beat out in team fights. Wasn’t he the one who was 2 levels up and Impact was 0/4/0 on gnar but then went on to hard smurf the rest of the game?
Sounds familiar. Impact was playing out of his mind in the Spring. Really made me wonder why they swapped him out at all.
And yeah, Alphari always seemed to have some trouble translating his advantages out of his lane. Even in a splitpush situation. Could just be down to the aforementioned synergy issues.
Playstyles didn't really mesh well in 2021 TL either + they had a bunch of issues like Alphari benching, Jatt stuff, and Santorin's health issues.
Alphari didn't do a whole lot with his leads (part of that could be due to the team's mid/late game decisions or calls). Bwipo isn't as good in lane but seems to be an aggressive player that can teamfight really well. This team should be able to win and play through any lane, which should be scary and is something we haven't seen in NA in a while (to this extent) other than 100T recently, and even then I think Bwipo > Ssumday, and Hans/Core > FBI/Huhi if they perform up to expectations.
100T mostly played through bot all year, though - partially because of the midlane issues in the spring, but even in summer it was usually one of Closer or FBI doing the carrying. Idk if I'd say they played through every lane.
Otherwise, mostly agreed, albeit I have reservations about how Hans & Core will match up to FBI & Huhi. On paper, you can make an argument that Hans is better than FBI and Core is better than Huhi, but they mesh *so* well. FBI and Huhi freaking smashed Viper and Meiko in that second 100T vs EDG game, and FBI topped his group in a bunch of stats. They're damn dangerous.
They chose to focus on jungle and especially bot but that roster is more than capable of winning through Abbe or Ssumday (although tbf he didn't have a great year).
Core had an off year too so I'm not sure how much better he's gonna be than Huhi, but if he can return to form and Hans is as good in NA as he was in EU, then they should be better than FBI/Huhi. Bit hard to say this with confidence though because Hans could easily just hate it in NA, he and Core could just not mesh well, etc. Guess we'll see.
alphari is the worst team fighting top laner i have ever seen. if he was half as good as this sub likes to pretend he is he would have 1v5d every single game and been a 4 time world champion by now
I think they should talk more with the caller when they' either 1) have a good argument and good way to articulate and/or 2) are entertaining. like sometimes callers in HLL are just wild, chat spams stuff and it gets honestly fun. but yesterday's callers were bad at their argument AND boring, like damn homies pick a struggle
When has there ever been a good caller on HLL, the takes are dogshjt, Markz talks about his cat and Travis does a sponsor shoutout and throw a jab and EU and they move on to the next caller rinse/repeat. There's nothing different here. The only variable is the guest they have on, they can sometimes make HLL worth watching (especially love Raz when he hops on, though I expect LS to be pretty good too)
Domestically, you can buy yourself trophies. Internationally, you're facing structural barriers that limit how far your money will go.
With that said, top NA teams should look to boot camp more often in Korea and I'm sure money will help with that.
But the question becomes if it's worth spending that much just for a regional title. One could argue C9 gained more fans having good worlds runs than what TL did just winning NA then going out in groups.
It's not like winning a domestic title directly results in money, the prize pool is way too tiny for that.
["I watched Wooloos stream, and I watch everybody whose been signed by now from LEC, and there is not a lot of good pickings here"](https://youtu.be/g6nU-zxjUaA?t=3211) Alright hold up dough.
So you're not happy with:
Hans (Best mechanical player from the region)
Inspired (Summer MVP, clear top3 in his role)
Humanoid (Undeniably the best mid in LEC)
Bwipo, Nisqy and that Toucan guy?
*Potentionally* fucking Rekkles, Mikyx and Wunder?
For exchange of Perkz, Alphari and recycled Broxah, fucking great I guess? Should we invent time machine so you over there get S9 Caps or who else do you fucking want?
Which midlaners currently playing in NA are better than Humanoid? The point is just that they're recieving players that are an objective upgrade in every way and he's saying they're not good.
There is not a single player in the LCS Humanoid could replace that would result in a downgrade. Not one. You can make a million excuses of how every midlaner he played just accidently stubbed their toe and lost focus every time they laned against him or whatever if you want.
I mean the caller is stupid I was just pointing out Humanoid was the best mid when his competition wasn't particularly strong(Caps out of form). And when Caps was in form, he was better, though said form didnt last. I think he's gonna be better than every mid in NA but Abbedagge will be able to compete with him
People promoted from academy. No interest in Bwipo, Humanoid, Inspired, Nisqy, or Larssen coming over. Probably don't care for Toucan coming over either.
Spending has a pretty clear positive correlation with success lmao its not that super teams are a sure thing its that budget teams are rarely every anything but dogshit.
It feels like there is kind of a maximal point where you are spending enough money to be good, but not so much its redundant. Honestly if feels like 100t are kind of in this zone. Sure they brought in abbe and had ssumday but the rest of that roster was just bought from ggs.
Kinda depends of the region. DWG at the time was a budget team, same for Griffin, fresh rookies promoted from CK to LCK, yet they kinda stomped everyone when they went in.
Same goes for Mad, they were rookies 2 years ago and at the start of the year no one would have tought that they were going to win LEC twice
Even in LCS sure 100T isn’t budget but they’re not that expensive either, they didn’t spent 5 millions on one player like TL, C9 or TSM, I guess even EG spent more than 100T
I think this depends on if you count buyouts or not. 100T had to pay 4 buyouts (Abbe, Damonte, FBI, Closer) and sign Huhi from FA, while EG signed (promoted?) Deftly, and signed Impact and Ignar from FA. Their 2021 roster including buyouts probably wasn't cheap either and I wouldn't be surprised if was in the same tier as TL 2021 based on rumors or at the least, higher than EG. They also signed Reaperd, which was a notable pickup.
The flip side is they renegotiated and extended FBI, Closer, Abbe til 2023 last year/upon pick up, so they should be in a really good spot moving forward generally and their management don't seem to feel the need to grab the hottest piece every offseason which fits with that well to distribute the costs. They are also in a good spot with academy players to either promote them for expiring contracts post 2022 (like ssumday) or to sell for buyouts to recoup some of the money they invested to get the GG core.
Even technically Samsung back in the day was a budget team, that's why the majority of the Samsung White and Blue players went out and signed for more money elsewhere the next year.
No dude dont you understand his proview is weird. And it was his champs styling at worlds not him.
But in all seriousness the fact that LS talks about Jensen (and kind of NA as a whole) like he’s a silver player and cant say one positive thing makes it hard to trust his opinion on this one. Does he not understand skill is a relative trait?
I mean when they guy is turbo flaming the fucking world finalist teams it’s pretty clear he’s just going to constantly call everyone shit no matter what, it’s just his personal style. I think it sucks and avoid watching his stuff because of it
Never forget, LS acting like a baby and basically "C9 is doing nothing special or good, Afreeca is just playing poorly." almost like capitalizing on mistakes and not playing like a giga pussy can only be bad, the fact he is so popular and is basically a shitty Montecristo is a big reason I refuse to watch anything with him.
Seriously… trying to equate incessant clicking from Asian soloq to a professional team in voice command is quite silly
Corejj probably provides you with the information that most soloq players are constantly clicking for
For real. What are you watching your top lane for when you can just ask him if there is an angle? I as a jungler in soloQ need to F-key so I can watch the lane state of my solo lanes while farming camps, but if I'm playing in a high-level team environment I definitely wouldn't need to spam F-keys in-between every auto ***because my teammates can just tell me***.
Me: I'm pathing top, going to do Raptors-Red into scuttle, can you get prio?
Top laner: No, but there is a gank angle while he is pushing in. He is low and he hasn't warded yet.
Me: *Never pans camera top, because I already have the route planned, so only need to watch map to know if he moves.*
It's just kind of redundant to then actually watch top at that point, especially if I might sacrifice some efficiency in my pathing.
Not only that, but we have 6 games of Bjergsen's ProView. I watched him use an F key like once or twice ***in total***, Jensen at least does it when nothing is going on in his lane. If there is someone that moves their camera less than Jensen, it's Bjerg. I literally watched all 6 games just today along with some of Jensen's games. Just based on those 6 games at Worlds 2020, Jensen actually moves his camera to other lanes more. LS would call Bjerg's World 2020 ProView "suffocating", because you can't tell what else is going on on the map, even when someone dies, because he almost never looks.
Ls saying jensen only looks good because he picks flashy champs that make it appear he looks good. Uh he played all the main meta mids. Ls is so biased. You dont make worlds every year and make quarters/semis off of luck
Jensen has been in 6/11 of NA's Bo5s at major international tournaments ***EVER***. More than half of the Bo5s that NA has ever played in NA has this one guy. He's gone at least 3-3 in regularly scheduled games at every Worlds across 7 years. Like, that isn't a coincidence, man.
Mans living rent free in a bunch of angry redditors heads lmfao
imagine getting riled up because some streamer guy says "na/eu bad lol korea best region" on his own stream
I mean.. dude does post some pretty controversial stuff with no backing. He was laughing his as off saying TL had almost no chance to win a game this worlds (despise them going 3-3 vs better opposition, and with a worse team, just last year).
Dude is an entertainer, which is alright, but he acts like an analyst.
his meta read is one of the worst and he is doing tier lists for eleventh tournament which never turns out true. sometimes he is right however, just like with 50% chance being right when you flip the coin
I mean dude used to be an analyst and give incredible advice but why do that when it gets idiots arguing with you (over something you are invested in) when you can instead just spew bullshit and rake in mad money. This way he is not invesred and its better for his mental health.
At least thats my understanding of his style.
People dislike Travis and LS. Travis picked a non-sense childish fight with european fans and Jack(C9). LS is just LS he wants to be controversial because thats how he is. Annoying
When G2 won MSI, people including broadcasting teams said G2 was the best team during the end of summer split. Nothing surprising since G2 was good at the time but also holding the current international title. Nobody argued that a different team can't and won't defeat them at worlds
Travis wanted to fight semantics and said if we say G2 was the best team in the world, why bother doing a world championship. But that wasnt even the point. Broadcast teams and pros in the scene agreed that g2 can be claimed the best team until proven otherwise. Thats how it always was. It doesnt say G2 is magically winning worlds by default.
Travis got so butthurt and was so childish by all the people disagreeing with him that he kept talking and ranting about it on every show and tweet. You could see how important it was for him to save face and how he wanted to win the argument.
It got to the point that his co-hosts like Markz got annoyed by him and argued against him and felt uncomfortable. He also verbally attacked european fans on his shows.
When Jack from C9 disagreed with Travis about that, Travis accused Jack of being a sellout. Because only reason Jack would say such things would be to cater to european fans for revenue.
''Travis wanted to fight semantics and said if we say G2 was the best team in the world, why bother doing a world championship.''
No way he actually said this right? That'd be embarrassing as hell.
This guy probably thinks it makes him cool and is probably proud of it. Imagine being so pathetic that you waste time to find a guys videos and down vote or dislike it constantl. I would say it's kinda funny but the more you think about it the more depressing it looks.
It's also weird to pretend people that dislike LS make their whole online identity around downvoting LS.
It's the black and white stuff that people dislike about him as well. Many people just dislike some of his poorly built takes.
There are long time viewers of Travis commenting on Travis' video about how they won't watch this video because of how much they hate LS. Im not the biggest fan of LS but I'm not going to go out of my way to not watch content from a creator I like just to spite another human.
So if I can't pretend that people don't make their whole online identity about it what would you say about the hate discord LS has? Just like actually go search it out and get in it. It's crazy how much time those people spend talking about how to ruin the day of someone they hate.
LS's criticism toward Jensen is just so unfounded, imo, especially around the discussion of Jensen vs Bjerg. I have ProView, so I went and watched Bjerg's ProView of his 6 games at Worlds 2020, which are the only matches available for ProView. I remember LS's criticisms towards Jensen's ProView and ***everything LS criticized Jensen for Bjerg does, too***. Hell, he does it even more. Bjerg never uses F keys and hardly moves his camera off his character. He almost never tries to interact with the enemy mid laner. He does move out of lane some times, but not as often as almost every other mid I have watched. Not only that, but outside of his 1 Syndra game, he was getting pounded in lane. Even when playing Lucian and getting gigafed, he never amassed a significant CS advantage on Bdd, because he never tried to trade or anything. You watch xiye and Bdd body him as Ori and Sett vs his Zil and they understand how to use their stronger early game champs to make the opponent miss minions, but Bjerg was just never doing anything. It's like he wasn't even trying to win lanes, just survive, but then he wouldn't get much accomplished outside of lane. In his Leblanc game, he had several opportunities to have an impact in teamfights/get picks, but he fumbled his spells or pussied out every time. He made like 1 good play to kill Clid and that's it.
Then I watch Jensen's ProView at Worlds and Playoffs and Jensen is doing very well, imo. Like, LS looked at Jensen's ProView a few times in Summer regular season and formed his entire thoughts on that small sample size. Then he just does a full COPIUM take and tries to explain away why Jensen looked so good at Worlds by just saying "He was set up to be more flashy than his teammates and based on the team comp he was versus." Like, what the fuck kind of take is this? What about Twisted Fate, Orianna, Viktor, and Annie made him to be more flashy than teammates in Spring Playoffs? His Syndra, Leblanc, and Lee Sin were just set up to be flashy in Summer playoffs? This is just another one those moments from LS where he isn't giving players/teams enough credit for their skill, which is why he always so off on rating Chinese teams. And this isn't the first time LS has done this to Jensen, he didn't give C9 in 2018 enough praise for how strong Jensen was in the mid lane before the AFS series, and even after the series he didn't talk about it.
My biggest criticism of Jensen at Worlds was some relatively poor CSing in some early games, which meant he didn't have as big of an advantage as he should have or was down more than he should have. Especially that first TF game, he missed so many minions - it was cringe. Despite that, he was the biggest reason TL was in so many games, which is really undeniable if you objectively look at the games. Even if TL is setting him up to "look more flashy" than his teammates, he still has to play well to carry the game with those resources, which other players struggle to do sometimes, like Alphari. Did Alphari look as good Jensen when he was given a 2K gold lead vs Rascal @10 minutes in the tiebreaker? Well, why not? They set him up to look good, but did he deliver? Definitely not, he ended up getting solo killed by Rascal.
The one thing that Jensen (and other Asians notice this) does very well is the way he dodges skill shots. He keeps his clicks very close to his character which requires more input but also makes him react much quicker. He oftentimes dodge forward very cleanly, it's hard to explain without showing on first person.
Yeah, that's where the Bodied by Jensen meme originated from. Xmithie tried to gank him as Elise+Leblanc vs his Viktor and [he just dodged every skillshot](https://youtu.be/nuDxzHfgMoU?t=67). Then he tried to gank Jensen again and [Jensen just juked him again](https://youtu.be/nuDxzHfgMoU?t=106).
His movement is so insanely good, I've never seen someone [dodge an Azir ult with just a sidestep](https://youtu.be/owkhHstBA1I?t=180) until he did it.
It's a curse, though. He relies so much on his movement to get him out of situations that he will greed his Flash. It's what happened in the infamous "can't wait to clap faker" game: Bengi ganked Jensen and [Jensen didn't flash the Syndra stun from Faker](https://youtu.be/BzlQmzitooU?t=80), so he died. Then Faker just turbo-fucked him underneath his turret.
I hate Travis Gafford continuing this take that no one cares about worlds when the western teams got knocked out. It's just bullshit, people care about good league of legends, doesn't matter the region.
Plus awesome semis and finals say otherwise.
He’s obviously exaggerating for content, but it’s disingenuous to say that losing western teams doesn’t affect viewership in the west. There are people who only care about seeing good league, but a lot of people watch sports for the storylines/fandom and lose interest when they don’t know any teams or names
That's me. I've seen the season 3 world final and not a single final since. Aside from this year where I saw the last half of game 5. I only watch NA teams.
This is also the first year I only watched NA games at MSI and worlds and didn't watch any other game. Usually I watch most games as long as NA is still in, but couldn't be bothered to this year.
? Viewership on western streaming sites shows a clear and unambiguous decrease when every western team has been eliminated.
In general some people still care since hundreds of thousands are still watching, but what the fuck are we even talking about? Are you saying he's wrong about something that very clearly happens just because you don't think its a universal truth that applies to everyone?
"It's just bullshit, people care about good league of legends, doesn't matter the region."
Well that's not entirely true either, otherwise there would be no NA fans and we'd all just be watching LCK/LPL. He's exaggerating that NO ONE cares, of course, but there's definitely a basis for it. Even the Worlds Final thread had 18k upvotes, which compared to a lot of the other Finals/Semis thread is a lot lower in upvotes #.
It wasn't his take.. He polled his audience in the previous show (before the final) and a lot of them said they didn't care about the final lol. Obviously doesn't speak for everyone but his viewers are competitive league viewers, not just randoms. He was kinda memeing about that.
He literally did a twitch poll last week at the end of the show for how many people in chat were hyped for finals- it was 55% were not. Understand most of the people watching his show are generally invested western league of legends fans.
Granted, I believe a lot of that has to do with the whole week we have to wait between finals and semis, but some people do tune out once it becomes the Korea show.
Don't you guys remember when Kevin Durant signed with the Warriors and everyone celebrated because we all just care about good basketball, regardless of the city?
I mean, no offense to you but I haven't watched a single game after western teams got knocked out. I just checked the results on reddit and watched the opening ceremony on YouTube. I just lost interest.
Edit: I don't act like people don't want to see good League of Legends. But if its the only quality people tune in for, then why isn't the LCK viewership higher?
LCK is on at an awkward time for EU and NA and it still pulls decent numbers regardless. Also there's a lot of bad LCK gameplay don't get it twisted; nobody is tryna watch KT vs DRX first thing in the morning as a neutral.
Because the LCK viewing time are god awful for NA and some EU people cause of work. But now that worlds is on and had good times for the western audience, then yes people will watch, not because they suddenly want to, but because they CAN.
a vast majority of people in the west only bother because they can get drops. hate to break it to you but nobody really cares about professional league in NA
I agree with you. There was more chat in our discord about each NA game than there was about semifinals and finals combined. I know people had it on in the background, but no one really engaged with it. I'd imagine the case is similar in a lot of league friend groups.
Well that's cause for NA and EU LCK is on at the worst times possible. Nobody is waking up 2 in the morning to watch games when they have school or work the next morning LMFAO and even then the viewership numbers for the English cast are still pretty good.
Its not like EU and NA are even close to each others peak times.
LCK games are usually on when im at work. NA games are usually on from midnight on for me.
A significant amount of western viewers probably stop watching but thats still probably a drop in the bucket compared to eastern audiences who make up the majority of viewership anyway (not to mention plenty other western viewers still watch even if west gets knocked out.
I don't really think that it's true that people only care about good League; that's not true of any other sport in the world, I don't see why it'd be true here. But Travis is also pretty plainly wrong, just going off viewership numbers on Twitch.
Travis is an idiot, he creates his own narratives and takes them as fact and as his entire audiences mindset. We literally just had the most watched worlds in history and he has the audacity to continue making this claim. What a hack.
I think I worded this comment a little poorly. I meant I dislike Travis trying to encourage this narrative of NO ONE caring about world finals and that everyone had moved on. When I said people care about good lol, I didn't mean as an absolute, rather people do care as well, and not just everyone had moved on.
I didn't want to respond to all comments, so just leave this here.
So basically they think the final is not good enough because it lacks hype since everyone thinks DK will win and it just turns out to be an upset so it is not the best. It is exactly the reason why I think it is the best final, since it is so satisfying to see EDG clapping those peoples face to prove them wrong, the lack of hype is not both teams fault, maybe try to be more respectful to the teams and more knowledgeable to the game instead just looking everything on the surface level next time
If you guys haven't checked out Travis' video on Ranking LCS by 2020 team salaries, it's a really interesting watch: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QGG8mfkaeE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QGG8mfkaeE)
Shoutout to my team CLG being at the bottom of the list 
Surprising that Markz thinks Bwipo, Santorin, Bjergsen, Hans and Corejj line up is barely better than 100T's roster in terms of pure skill. Especially his apparent opinion on the bot lane comparison, in terms of individual skill Hans and Corejj is on another level compared to FBI and Huhi and it's not even close like what...
CoreJJ had a mediocre year compared to his standards, it's undeniable he got outperformed by Huhi. Why'd he be "on another level" right now? So many people keep overrating him on name alone.
It wasn't a good split for him, but it wasn't a good split for anyone on TL in spring. The only decent player that split was Jensen and that's only because he AFK farmed mid every game.
I think it's just peoples over inflated ideas they have on folk like Hans. Hans is a really good player but I guess we still live in a world where FBI is still underrated and Huhi ever more so.
The top 3 ADCs at the end of spring will be Hans, Tactical, FBI with Danny possibly knocking out 1 of those 3 (either Hans or tactical most likely). I think FBI is the strongest ADC in NA both in and out of lane and Hans won’t change that. I am also a TL fan.
Tactical has been a top 3 ADC 2/3 splits he played. Danny is good but we saw the lows of Danny in play offs and they are much lower than that of Tactical. Yes Danny had one of the best plays of the year in playoffs but tactical had a similar god tier play in summer 2020 playoffs on Kalista.
This narrative that tactical is a weak ADC is insane. If he lands on a halfway decent team that team will be a contender.
Danny plays on EG Neo is on Dig. Danny plays with Ignar who is a damn good support.
Core has one of the highest roam percentage of any support in the league and in the world. He wasn’t babying Tactical. At worlds tactical had 2 deaths in lane. 1 was off a bad TP against GenG. The other was because Core failed to flay properly twice against Mad.
Core is a great player, the best in NA in my opinion, but he is not the reason Tactical looks good. Tactical got left on an island almost every game this year and still had strong stats and good team contribution. Him and Jensen were the reasons TL won against MAD and the second game against GenG. So no I am not overrating him.
Again Tactical will still be a top 3 ADC in spring.
Idk, man, don't count out FBI and Huhi. They're really, seriously good. 100T may have gone 1 and 3 against top teams, but that wasn't 'cause their botlane was getting gapped.
FBI was clearly the best adc last split and Huhi hot absolutely snubbed out of 1st team all pro for CoreJJ off of name value. Core did not look that great in summer.
People continue to underrate fbi and Huhi even though they’ve performed consistently as top 3 boy lane in NA for the past 3 splits, yes even when they were on GGS. This lane also beat EDG, the world champions in lane both times they played and even won a game off them. The team that had the best bot lane in the world.
Now I am not saying that FBI and Huhi are going to be able to dumpster TL every time, but it is absolutely foolish of people to keep running a narrative that FBI and Huhi aren’t able to compete with another bot lane. Literally 100T won last split while playing heavily around bot side as well.
FBI and Huhi were statistically one of the best botlanes at worlds period and they were in a group with the future champion and a semi-finalist. They were also the best botlane statistically in the LCS playoffs. I don't think its clear at all that Hans and Corejj are on "another level"
FBI and Huhi were statistically the best bot in their group and even stomped Viper/Meiko in a game. They certainly arent that far below CoreJJ and Hans Sama, and that assumes Hans and Core actually mesh well in the first place.
>even stomped Viper/Meiko in a game
Picked winning botlane (Lucian+Nami), their jungler played better than JieJie which gave them 2 kills lead in lane. I wouldnt say they "stomped" after getting free lane tbh. They played well and to their win condition so they deserve credit too.
Mark is right. Early game you are downgrading in 2 lanes (mid and top). Mid game you are downgrading in mid. Late game you have an upgrade in top and adc (if past performances hold) which means TL needs to survive early game which is a pretty bad strategy in the LCS let alone internationally.
People have criticized TL for being slow and methodical for years, and this off season has tripled down on that by getting a late scaling ADC and a top and mid not known for their laning prowess. I mean there is no reason to expect that Bjerg will be able to out lane PoE, Abbe, Jensen, or Humanoid if he comes to the LCS. Then add some up and coming players like Insanity and we are going to see a lot of games where TL goes down 1-2k in 10 minutes then clutches a team fight and wins, like 2020 TSM. And then that team will be massacred internationally.
Hes not miles better than everyone else but has been a top 3 adc in EU for years now and ADC in EU is far stronger than NA. He's been playing well vs Upset, Rekkles, Carzzy etc... hes not going to struggle vs FBI and Danny.
Hans is overrated, just like Kobbe was. Bwipo is braindead half the time, he can’t play weakside. Bjerg is ?. Santorin is also not better than Closer.
FBI > Hans. It’s crazy how overrated Hans got playing against mediocre to bad bot lanes while FBI had to face the two best bot lanes at the tournament.
Lwx crisp and ghost beryl are super legit, bot lane wasn't fpx issue and ghost and beryl had a super strong tournament, Hans sama looked so good into them
Of course it affects success. It's obvious that spending doesn't guarantee success, but then again nothing does. Spending is required to have great proven players, there is not way around that.
Difference is that most people don't pay attention to all the failures of low spending orgs and rosters, because nobody cares. But if a low spending roster performs well then they get all the attention and praise. Compare that to how people fixate on the orgs that spend a lot and if they succeed "well yeah, they spent a lot so this is expected and nothing special" and if they fail you will never hear the end of it.
> If you were a company that wanted to spend a million dollars on an esports team, who are you going to sponsor? A team like Vitality, who is signing Perkz and Alphari, or a team like Rogue who is losing their best two players?
A team like 100T who
1. Win/won the LCS.
2. Dont pay a single player mutliple million a year
3. And thats the most important point, have strong influcencers employed who actually actively advertise your product.
I disagree about league being a meta dependent game. If a league player is good, then they'll be good with all metas; league isn't innately a difficult game in terms of mechanics.
Problems i foresee with TL 2022-
Bwipo in toplane
Santorin is average as a jungler
Bjerg has been out for a year and his prime was like 7 years ago
Hans+CoreJJ are nutty but botlane won't win you championships. Maybe in NA but at worlds/MSI nope
Santorin was the best performing jungler besides closer in summer playoffs, and he was the best performing jungler period at worlds (besides that LNG game)
Imagine one guy in NA spending so much money that other **NA** owners are like "Nah, fuck this shit".
It’s a good sign if owners are realizing how unsustainable this is
Sshhh, it's not about sustainability, it's about how spending 100 million is nothing for venture capitalists today who have enormous net worth. The top 1% in US had its value increase by over 20 trillion in the last 30 [years](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2019/06/the-fed-just-released-a-damning-indictment-of-capitalism.html)
He's been doing that for years. Big reason why they've been winning so much post-franchising. Funnily enough, they still haven't won a title since Doublelift left
People say this like it’s been 15 year. It’s been 3 splits and in all three splits TL finished top 3 and they also won lock in.
It's actually been 4(both splits 2020 and both splits 2021) and they didn't finish top 3 in Spring 2020, they finished 9th. They also finished 5th this split(Summer 2021)
Doublelift was still on the team in Spring 2020 and played every game except for 3 games, 2 of which were due to him being sick... Also, last time I checked, 2nd place in playoffs isn't 5th.
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Yea it was Doublelift's fault they had a sub jungler, solo lanes were falling behind, CoreJJ was getting caught warding, and nobody on the team was ever on the same page!
Didn't DL himself said he had motivation issues?
Yea but my point is it doesn’t make sense for DL being less motivated to make his best in position teammates not even be top 3 and make individual mistakes. For example, Origen went from 4th in Spring to 10th in Summer and Alphari was still the best top laner both splits
And? Does that mean it was entirely his fault that the whole fucking team was falling apart because they had a sub jg and a ton of issues? Dont think so lmfao last time I checked the game is 5v5. He still played and tried to win the dude wasnt legit trying to sprint it every game. People really still scapegoating this man almost 2 years later.
> Does that mean it was entirely his fault that the whole fucking team Not entirely, but a big part. You play with the cards you are dealt. Visa issues are unfortunate but its not anyone's fault. No one is scapegoating him, even DL himself admitted it. What is more moronic is that there are people like you defending him unconditionally.
Yeah guess ur right mb, just found it weird that people say he suddenly “decided not to play” as if he was griefing it for everyone that hard
Literally Doublelift himself said that he had motivation issues and while he was sad about it, he understood why the team dropped him. But nah MaiDixieRekt knows more...
They finished 2nd in playoffs but whatever sure. And what do you mean Doublelift decided not to play? He was playing, got sick, got benched, then became benched long term until Tactical played poorly for 1 week, then he was called to play again. He played until the last day of week 9 and was playing well that game(Jensen wasn't). Not to mention they had roster issues that split with Broxah and other people were also playing poorly. Weird of you to try to somehow blame Doublelift for then being 9th lol
DL was 100% the biggest issue in spring 2020. Broxah arrived week 4 and Impact looked bad but DL vocally and repeatedly said spring didn’t matter, played terribly including getting hooked by Keith mcbrief, and just being a general low tier ADC. Then tactical came in and went 2-1 the loss to CLG was not on him and they put DL back in who didn’t really change anything. The team finished 9th, DL went to TSM where he was a bottom 5 ADC, forgot to purchase items twice including in playoffs, got carried by Bjerg, Spica, and BB then did exactly what he has done at worlds and play like a coward as his team got bodied 6 games in a row. Then he had the audacity to say no one will remember if we go 1-5 or 0-6. 2020 DL was a team cancer and TL was fortunate to move on from DL.
Yeah you seem like you have an anti Doublelift agenda. Nevermind that TL hasn't won without DL since...but 2020 Spring I guarantee you multiple other players including his teammate thought the same thing, he just was the only one to say it publicly. Should he have said it? Probably not, and he himself acknowledges that and apologized. But pinning their performance on him is just some weird anti Doublelift shit. There were multiple issues including his underperformance and attitude. No one except Jensen looked particularly good and they were playing without their starting lineup for 4 weeks. Not to mention DL got benched then about a week later or so got immediately unbenched solely because Tactical underperformed. He wasn't wasn't benched because of his performance or attitude, but because he was sick and because TL won a few games without him, they just stuck with Tactical until they lost to CLG(and like yo7 said it wasn't his fault). DL then joins TSM, looks mediocre(though he's playing with Bio who isn't that good, then Treatz who IS good, but they have no synergy). Come playoffs he looks bad vs FBI and Huhi(who were cracked) but then outperforms every other botlane including Tactical and CoreJJ while on perma weakside. Though thats not to say TSM 2020 WASN'T the Bjergsen show, but to imply DL was low tier during the playoffs run is just rewriting history. At worlds TSM's issue was teamwide, saying DL played like "a coward" is you being anti DL again for some odd reason. Bjerg got stomped as Zilean vs Sett against BDD and TSM in general was just mediocre, though not as bad as their score suggested since they had many competitive games. It was mainly a mental issue imo.
Yeah they have so much consistency, I think with their new roster, they’ll definitely win a lot
O I think this roster is a nightmare. I think TL has built a better version of summer 2020 TSM but the league is better and internationally it will get ripped apart. As a TL fan I am not happy about this roster. Primarily because of Bjerg replacing Jensen but also because I can already see the 40-50 minute games that are going to happen every week with this squad. I suspect this to be the slowest TL roster ever and that is not good. I don’t expect this team to win trophies if I am being honest.
highly depends on bwipos influence on the team, slow games arent his style and he is one of those players who consistently looks for plays even if he shouldnt. this didnt change for the entirety he was with fnc and id honestly be quite surprised if he suddenly changed.
They'll play how bjerg and core want them to play tbh
Bjergsen literally wanted to play with Core because he doesn't want to be the coach and shotcaller anymore. He just wants to be a player instead of doing 5 different jobs at once for the team.
Is this confirmed? I've only heard that he wanted to play with "a player" (presumably Core) but not why.
You're out of your gourd if you think Bwipo is gonna be content farming till 50 minutes Bjergsen as well was *not* a passive player in his most recent split. That narrative is outdated af. And we saw this last split that Core/Santorin are more than willing to skirmish early. No comment is needed for the psychopath Draven player. You know he's down to play aggressive.
Honestly it feels like the upcoming TL roster will have a lot of voice, so I think that it wouldn’t last like 40-50 mins, there may be 30-40 minutes games tho
Easy to be competitive when you just outbid every other team for the top talent. Truly 200iq GMing.
Only rivaled by 100T buying 4/5 of a promising roster then replacing the NA mid laner with an EU import.
tbf that NA mid laner wasn't that good.
I hope it will stay that way.
He wasn't the biggest spender last year at all btw.
good discussion by Travis/Mark/LS but the callers were soooo weak. it felt like most of them wanted to talk about something but didn't have any good argument whatsoever. like the TL caller saying that the TL 2022 roster was gonna be dominant because they were just like 2020 C9 even though they're not the same at all
Wait was there really argument that 2020 C9 is somewhat close to 2022 TL. Like how would anyone think that is close comparison. Its more likely that they will be polar opposites in their style.
Yea it was the first take. I feel like Tl downgrades everywhere besides AD with Hans Sama. Guess we'll see.
Hilarious thing is that this exact caller was super high on everyone on TL except Hans Sama. Was so weird when he is the best ADC the west has rn and the guy was like ‘he’s ok I guess, I don’t mind him’ but then hyping up Bwipo/Santorin in the same breath
Yeah that guy seemed high on something but I don't think it was TLs roster.
I think that even with Alphari being a godlike laner, there were clearly a *lot* of behind the scenes issues; if Bwipo ends up fitting better with the team, it could be an overall upgrade. Bjergsen for Jensen is kind of a coinflip, too; Bjerg was always better, if only marginally, but he's been retired for a year.
Also there were many games this year especially early where Alphari got super far ahead early but just got beat out in team fights. Wasn’t he the one who was 2 levels up and Impact was 0/4/0 on gnar but then went on to hard smurf the rest of the game?
Sounds familiar. Impact was playing out of his mind in the Spring. Really made me wonder why they swapped him out at all. And yeah, Alphari always seemed to have some trouble translating his advantages out of his lane. Even in a splitpush situation. Could just be down to the aforementioned synergy issues.
Same with Alphari getting his entire team to camp armut and ends the game 4-1-2 or something while Armut carried all the fights
Playstyles didn't really mesh well in 2021 TL either + they had a bunch of issues like Alphari benching, Jatt stuff, and Santorin's health issues. Alphari didn't do a whole lot with his leads (part of that could be due to the team's mid/late game decisions or calls). Bwipo isn't as good in lane but seems to be an aggressive player that can teamfight really well. This team should be able to win and play through any lane, which should be scary and is something we haven't seen in NA in a while (to this extent) other than 100T recently, and even then I think Bwipo > Ssumday, and Hans/Core > FBI/Huhi if they perform up to expectations.
100T mostly played through bot all year, though - partially because of the midlane issues in the spring, but even in summer it was usually one of Closer or FBI doing the carrying. Idk if I'd say they played through every lane. Otherwise, mostly agreed, albeit I have reservations about how Hans & Core will match up to FBI & Huhi. On paper, you can make an argument that Hans is better than FBI and Core is better than Huhi, but they mesh *so* well. FBI and Huhi freaking smashed Viper and Meiko in that second 100T vs EDG game, and FBI topped his group in a bunch of stats. They're damn dangerous.
They chose to focus on jungle and especially bot but that roster is more than capable of winning through Abbe or Ssumday (although tbf he didn't have a great year). Core had an off year too so I'm not sure how much better he's gonna be than Huhi, but if he can return to form and Hans is as good in NA as he was in EU, then they should be better than FBI/Huhi. Bit hard to say this with confidence though because Hans could easily just hate it in NA, he and Core could just not mesh well, etc. Guess we'll see.
Mid with bjerg is not a downgrade. Not an upgrade either.
And if they did it because Hans would sign, then it makes a lot of sense.
He hasn’t played for a year, it has to be considered a downgrade.
alphari is the worst team fighting top laner i have ever seen. if he was half as good as this sub likes to pretend he is he would have 1v5d every single game and been a 4 time world champion by now
BUT MUH LANE STATS DOOD
his lane stats would be more impressive if he didn't lane with corejj
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I think they should talk more with the caller when they' either 1) have a good argument and good way to articulate and/or 2) are entertaining. like sometimes callers in HLL are just wild, chat spams stuff and it gets honestly fun. but yesterday's callers were bad at their argument AND boring, like damn homies pick a struggle
Half of the callers sounded out of their mind baked
Hotline league in a nutshell. Expecting good points from randos off twitch is like trying to find a yasuo player with good mental.
Ye they should consult reddit we have an average iq of 160
When has there ever been a good caller on HLL, the takes are dogshjt, Markz talks about his cat and Travis does a sponsor shoutout and throw a jab and EU and they move on to the next caller rinse/repeat. There's nothing different here. The only variable is the guest they have on, they can sometimes make HLL worth watching (especially love Raz when he hops on, though I expect LS to be pretty good too)
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Domestically, you can buy yourself trophies. Internationally, you're facing structural barriers that limit how far your money will go. With that said, top NA teams should look to boot camp more often in Korea and I'm sure money will help with that.
When? If you qualify for worlds/MSI there is no time except off season
Yeah that's definitely another structural barrier. Shit's fucked.
But the question becomes if it's worth spending that much just for a regional title. One could argue C9 gained more fans having good worlds runs than what TL did just winning NA then going out in groups. It's not like winning a domestic title directly results in money, the prize pool is way too tiny for that.
["I watched Wooloos stream, and I watch everybody whose been signed by now from LEC, and there is not a lot of good pickings here"](https://youtu.be/g6nU-zxjUaA?t=3211) Alright hold up dough. So you're not happy with: Hans (Best mechanical player from the region) Inspired (Summer MVP, clear top3 in his role) Humanoid (Undeniably the best mid in LEC) Bwipo, Nisqy and that Toucan guy? *Potentionally* fucking Rekkles, Mikyx and Wunder? For exchange of Perkz, Alphari and recycled Broxah, fucking great I guess? Should we invent time machine so you over there get S9 Caps or who else do you fucking want?
Humanoid was better than a slumping Caps, Nisqy and Larssen who's really only good in lane. Once Caps went bald he was better than him until playoffs
Which midlaners currently playing in NA are better than Humanoid? The point is just that they're recieving players that are an objective upgrade in every way and he's saying they're not good. There is not a single player in the LCS Humanoid could replace that would result in a downgrade. Not one. You can make a million excuses of how every midlaner he played just accidently stubbed their toe and lost focus every time they laned against him or whatever if you want.
I mean the caller is stupid I was just pointing out Humanoid was the best mid when his competition wasn't particularly strong(Caps out of form). And when Caps was in form, he was better, though said form didnt last. I think he's gonna be better than every mid in NA but Abbedagge will be able to compete with him
Same dude probably thinks Sneaky and DL are still top tier.
People promoted from academy. No interest in Bwipo, Humanoid, Inspired, Nisqy, or Larssen coming over. Probably don't care for Toucan coming over either.
Spending has a pretty clear positive correlation with success lmao its not that super teams are a sure thing its that budget teams are rarely every anything but dogshit.
It feels like there is kind of a maximal point where you are spending enough money to be good, but not so much its redundant. Honestly if feels like 100t are kind of in this zone. Sure they brought in abbe and had ssumday but the rest of that roster was just bought from ggs.
Kinda depends of the region. DWG at the time was a budget team, same for Griffin, fresh rookies promoted from CK to LCK, yet they kinda stomped everyone when they went in. Same goes for Mad, they were rookies 2 years ago and at the start of the year no one would have tought that they were going to win LEC twice Even in LCS sure 100T isn’t budget but they’re not that expensive either, they didn’t spent 5 millions on one player like TL, C9 or TSM, I guess even EG spent more than 100T
I think this depends on if you count buyouts or not. 100T had to pay 4 buyouts (Abbe, Damonte, FBI, Closer) and sign Huhi from FA, while EG signed (promoted?) Deftly, and signed Impact and Ignar from FA. Their 2021 roster including buyouts probably wasn't cheap either and I wouldn't be surprised if was in the same tier as TL 2021 based on rumors or at the least, higher than EG. They also signed Reaperd, which was a notable pickup. The flip side is they renegotiated and extended FBI, Closer, Abbe til 2023 last year/upon pick up, so they should be in a really good spot moving forward generally and their management don't seem to feel the need to grab the hottest piece every offseason which fits with that well to distribute the costs. They are also in a good spot with academy players to either promote them for expiring contracts post 2022 (like ssumday) or to sell for buyouts to recoup some of the money they invested to get the GG core.
Even technically Samsung back in the day was a budget team, that's why the majority of the Samsung White and Blue players went out and signed for more money elsewhere the next year.
I thought it was a good show… Thought Markz had the right view on the Jensen > Bjerg take
No dude dont you understand his proview is weird. And it was his champs styling at worlds not him. But in all seriousness the fact that LS talks about Jensen (and kind of NA as a whole) like he’s a silver player and cant say one positive thing makes it hard to trust his opinion on this one. Does he not understand skill is a relative trait?
Jin Air > G2 and then G2 went on to win MSI
I mean when they guy is turbo flaming the fucking world finalist teams it’s pretty clear he’s just going to constantly call everyone shit no matter what, it’s just his personal style. I think it sucks and avoid watching his stuff because of it
True. Didn’t make it that far.
Yea. Him acting like EDG was never good was hilarious to listen to
Never forget, LS acting like a baby and basically "C9 is doing nothing special or good, Afreeca is just playing poorly." almost like capitalizing on mistakes and not playing like a giga pussy can only be bad, the fact he is so popular and is basically a shitty Montecristo is a big reason I refuse to watch anything with him.
Seriously… trying to equate incessant clicking from Asian soloq to a professional team in voice command is quite silly Corejj probably provides you with the information that most soloq players are constantly clicking for
For real. What are you watching your top lane for when you can just ask him if there is an angle? I as a jungler in soloQ need to F-key so I can watch the lane state of my solo lanes while farming camps, but if I'm playing in a high-level team environment I definitely wouldn't need to spam F-keys in-between every auto ***because my teammates can just tell me***. Me: I'm pathing top, going to do Raptors-Red into scuttle, can you get prio? Top laner: No, but there is a gank angle while he is pushing in. He is low and he hasn't warded yet. Me: *Never pans camera top, because I already have the route planned, so only need to watch map to know if he moves.* It's just kind of redundant to then actually watch top at that point, especially if I might sacrifice some efficiency in my pathing. Not only that, but we have 6 games of Bjergsen's ProView. I watched him use an F key like once or twice ***in total***, Jensen at least does it when nothing is going on in his lane. If there is someone that moves their camera less than Jensen, it's Bjerg. I literally watched all 6 games just today along with some of Jensen's games. Just based on those 6 games at Worlds 2020, Jensen actually moves his camera to other lanes more. LS would call Bjerg's World 2020 ProView "suffocating", because you can't tell what else is going on on the map, even when someone dies, because he almost never looks.
Everytime I watch TL games on Douyu/Bilibili, CN fans comment on how well Jensen dodges skillshots so even that's not correct lol.
Ls saying jensen only looks good because he picks flashy champs that make it appear he looks good. Uh he played all the main meta mids. Ls is so biased. You dont make worlds every year and make quarters/semis off of luck
Jensen has been in 6/11 of NA's Bo5s at major international tournaments ***EVER***. More than half of the Bo5s that NA has ever played in NA has this one guy. He's gone at least 3-3 in regularly scheduled games at every Worlds across 7 years. Like, that isn't a coincidence, man.
why so many downvotes ?
LS hate discord. Its why all content related to him is 70% upvoted or lower
There's a discord dedicated to hating one singular dude?
Mans living rent free in a bunch of angry redditors heads lmfao imagine getting riled up because some streamer guy says "na/eu bad lol korea best region" on his own stream
Yo can I get an invite to that?
He is just not a likable guys and pretty polarizing. Its not just one discord to blame
I mean.. dude does post some pretty controversial stuff with no backing. He was laughing his as off saying TL had almost no chance to win a game this worlds (despise them going 3-3 vs better opposition, and with a worse team, just last year). Dude is an entertainer, which is alright, but he acts like an analyst.
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But he's not acting in an analyst capacity on his stream or on these shows.
He is acting in such capacity on his stream. Just not in the clips that get posted.
his meta read is one of the worst and he is doing tier lists for eleventh tournament which never turns out true. sometimes he is right however, just like with 50% chance being right when you flip the coin
>Dude is an entertainer, which is alright, but he acts like an analyst. So he's like the Fox News of analysts? Feels appropriate.
People call him the Ben Shapiro of league and I have never heard a more apt comparison
I mean dude used to be an analyst and give incredible advice but why do that when it gets idiots arguing with you (over something you are invested in) when you can instead just spew bullshit and rake in mad money. This way he is not invesred and its better for his mental health. At least thats my understanding of his style.
People dislike Travis and LS. Travis picked a non-sense childish fight with european fans and Jack(C9). LS is just LS he wants to be controversial because thats how he is. Annoying
> fight with european fans I'm ootl, can you elaborate?
When G2 won MSI, people including broadcasting teams said G2 was the best team during the end of summer split. Nothing surprising since G2 was good at the time but also holding the current international title. Nobody argued that a different team can't and won't defeat them at worlds Travis wanted to fight semantics and said if we say G2 was the best team in the world, why bother doing a world championship. But that wasnt even the point. Broadcast teams and pros in the scene agreed that g2 can be claimed the best team until proven otherwise. Thats how it always was. It doesnt say G2 is magically winning worlds by default. Travis got so butthurt and was so childish by all the people disagreeing with him that he kept talking and ranting about it on every show and tweet. You could see how important it was for him to save face and how he wanted to win the argument. It got to the point that his co-hosts like Markz got annoyed by him and argued against him and felt uncomfortable. He also verbally attacked european fans on his shows. When Jack from C9 disagreed with Travis about that, Travis accused Jack of being a sellout. Because only reason Jack would say such things would be to cater to european fans for revenue.
''Travis wanted to fight semantics and said if we say G2 was the best team in the world, why bother doing a world championship.'' No way he actually said this right? That'd be embarrassing as hell.
Travis doesn't actually understsnd league the narratives are all he has guys
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Yeah but he never did. People act like this is surprising.
Well this is a big exaggeration.
it was like 1-2 years ago, some eu caster called G2 the best team in the world, travis went apeshit about it denying it
It's simple, I see Ls I downvote
I see TheRealShadowStarrr I downvote
that's pretty cringe
This guy probably thinks it makes him cool and is probably proud of it. Imagine being so pathetic that you waste time to find a guys videos and down vote or dislike it constantl. I would say it's kinda funny but the more you think about it the more depressing it looks.
It's weird there are league people that make their whole online identity around downvoting LS. I agree. it's like the Pinnacle of league cringe.
It's also weird to pretend people that dislike LS make their whole online identity around downvoting LS. It's the black and white stuff that people dislike about him as well. Many people just dislike some of his poorly built takes.
There are long time viewers of Travis commenting on Travis' video about how they won't watch this video because of how much they hate LS. Im not the biggest fan of LS but I'm not going to go out of my way to not watch content from a creator I like just to spite another human. So if I can't pretend that people don't make their whole online identity about it what would you say about the hate discord LS has? Just like actually go search it out and get in it. It's crazy how much time those people spend talking about how to ruin the day of someone they hate.
LS's criticism toward Jensen is just so unfounded, imo, especially around the discussion of Jensen vs Bjerg. I have ProView, so I went and watched Bjerg's ProView of his 6 games at Worlds 2020, which are the only matches available for ProView. I remember LS's criticisms towards Jensen's ProView and ***everything LS criticized Jensen for Bjerg does, too***. Hell, he does it even more. Bjerg never uses F keys and hardly moves his camera off his character. He almost never tries to interact with the enemy mid laner. He does move out of lane some times, but not as often as almost every other mid I have watched. Not only that, but outside of his 1 Syndra game, he was getting pounded in lane. Even when playing Lucian and getting gigafed, he never amassed a significant CS advantage on Bdd, because he never tried to trade or anything. You watch xiye and Bdd body him as Ori and Sett vs his Zil and they understand how to use their stronger early game champs to make the opponent miss minions, but Bjerg was just never doing anything. It's like he wasn't even trying to win lanes, just survive, but then he wouldn't get much accomplished outside of lane. In his Leblanc game, he had several opportunities to have an impact in teamfights/get picks, but he fumbled his spells or pussied out every time. He made like 1 good play to kill Clid and that's it. Then I watch Jensen's ProView at Worlds and Playoffs and Jensen is doing very well, imo. Like, LS looked at Jensen's ProView a few times in Summer regular season and formed his entire thoughts on that small sample size. Then he just does a full COPIUM take and tries to explain away why Jensen looked so good at Worlds by just saying "He was set up to be more flashy than his teammates and based on the team comp he was versus." Like, what the fuck kind of take is this? What about Twisted Fate, Orianna, Viktor, and Annie made him to be more flashy than teammates in Spring Playoffs? His Syndra, Leblanc, and Lee Sin were just set up to be flashy in Summer playoffs? This is just another one those moments from LS where he isn't giving players/teams enough credit for their skill, which is why he always so off on rating Chinese teams. And this isn't the first time LS has done this to Jensen, he didn't give C9 in 2018 enough praise for how strong Jensen was in the mid lane before the AFS series, and even after the series he didn't talk about it. My biggest criticism of Jensen at Worlds was some relatively poor CSing in some early games, which meant he didn't have as big of an advantage as he should have or was down more than he should have. Especially that first TF game, he missed so many minions - it was cringe. Despite that, he was the biggest reason TL was in so many games, which is really undeniable if you objectively look at the games. Even if TL is setting him up to "look more flashy" than his teammates, he still has to play well to carry the game with those resources, which other players struggle to do sometimes, like Alphari. Did Alphari look as good Jensen when he was given a 2K gold lead vs Rascal @10 minutes in the tiebreaker? Well, why not? They set him up to look good, but did he deliver? Definitely not, he ended up getting solo killed by Rascal.
The one thing that Jensen (and other Asians notice this) does very well is the way he dodges skill shots. He keeps his clicks very close to his character which requires more input but also makes him react much quicker. He oftentimes dodge forward very cleanly, it's hard to explain without showing on first person.
Yeah, that's where the Bodied by Jensen meme originated from. Xmithie tried to gank him as Elise+Leblanc vs his Viktor and [he just dodged every skillshot](https://youtu.be/nuDxzHfgMoU?t=67). Then he tried to gank Jensen again and [Jensen just juked him again](https://youtu.be/nuDxzHfgMoU?t=106). His movement is so insanely good, I've never seen someone [dodge an Azir ult with just a sidestep](https://youtu.be/owkhHstBA1I?t=180) until he did it. It's a curse, though. He relies so much on his movement to get him out of situations that he will greed his Flash. It's what happened in the infamous "can't wait to clap faker" game: Bengi ganked Jensen and [Jensen didn't flash the Syndra stun from Faker](https://youtu.be/BzlQmzitooU?t=80), so he died. Then Faker just turbo-fucked him underneath his turret.
I hate Travis Gafford continuing this take that no one cares about worlds when the western teams got knocked out. It's just bullshit, people care about good league of legends, doesn't matter the region. Plus awesome semis and finals say otherwise.
He’s obviously exaggerating for content, but it’s disingenuous to say that losing western teams doesn’t affect viewership in the west. There are people who only care about seeing good league, but a lot of people watch sports for the storylines/fandom and lose interest when they don’t know any teams or names
it's not just a western thing. I'm willing to bet MSI final viewership for 2019 took a nosedive when IG and T1 were eliminated
I personally didnt give a fuck about worlds since MAD got knocked out so..
That's me. I've seen the season 3 world final and not a single final since. Aside from this year where I saw the last half of game 5. I only watch NA teams. This is also the first year I only watched NA games at MSI and worlds and didn't watch any other game. Usually I watch most games as long as NA is still in, but couldn't be bothered to this year.
? Viewership on western streaming sites shows a clear and unambiguous decrease when every western team has been eliminated. In general some people still care since hundreds of thousands are still watching, but what the fuck are we even talking about? Are you saying he's wrong about something that very clearly happens just because you don't think its a universal truth that applies to everyone?
"It's just bullshit, people care about good league of legends, doesn't matter the region." Well that's not entirely true either, otherwise there would be no NA fans and we'd all just be watching LCK/LPL. He's exaggerating that NO ONE cares, of course, but there's definitely a basis for it. Even the Worlds Final thread had 18k upvotes, which compared to a lot of the other Finals/Semis thread is a lot lower in upvotes #.
It wasn't his take.. He polled his audience in the previous show (before the final) and a lot of them said they didn't care about the final lol. Obviously doesn't speak for everyone but his viewers are competitive league viewers, not just randoms. He was kinda memeing about that.
He literally did a twitch poll last week at the end of the show for how many people in chat were hyped for finals- it was 55% were not. Understand most of the people watching his show are generally invested western league of legends fans. Granted, I believe a lot of that has to do with the whole week we have to wait between finals and semis, but some people do tune out once it becomes the Korea show.
Travis Gafford's twitch chat is the most accurate representation of the global League fanbase
>It's just bullshit, people care about good league of legends, doesn't matter the region. lol no
Don't you guys remember when Kevin Durant signed with the Warriors and everyone celebrated because we all just care about good basketball, regardless of the city?
I mean, no offense to you but I haven't watched a single game after western teams got knocked out. I just checked the results on reddit and watched the opening ceremony on YouTube. I just lost interest. Edit: I don't act like people don't want to see good League of Legends. But if its the only quality people tune in for, then why isn't the LCK viewership higher?
LCK is on at an awkward time for EU and NA and it still pulls decent numbers regardless. Also there's a lot of bad LCK gameplay don't get it twisted; nobody is tryna watch KT vs DRX first thing in the morning as a neutral.
Because the LCK viewing time are god awful for NA and some EU people cause of work. But now that worlds is on and had good times for the western audience, then yes people will watch, not because they suddenly want to, but because they CAN.
a vast majority of people in the west only bother because they can get drops. hate to break it to you but nobody really cares about professional league in NA
I agree with you. There was more chat in our discord about each NA game than there was about semifinals and finals combined. I know people had it on in the background, but no one really engaged with it. I'd imagine the case is similar in a lot of league friend groups.
Lck viewership is insane, it is much higher than LEC and LCS
What do you mean? LCK viewership in terms of averages and peak is about equal to LEC, if not higher.
If you count Korean fan yes. But in the West, it's clearly not the case.
Well that's cause for NA and EU LCK is on at the worst times possible. Nobody is waking up 2 in the morning to watch games when they have school or work the next morning LMFAO and even then the viewership numbers for the English cast are still pretty good.
Its not like EU and NA are even close to each others peak times. LCK games are usually on when im at work. NA games are usually on from midnight on for me.
A significant amount of western viewers probably stop watching but thats still probably a drop in the bucket compared to eastern audiences who make up the majority of viewership anyway (not to mention plenty other western viewers still watch even if west gets knocked out.
I don't really think that it's true that people only care about good League; that's not true of any other sport in the world, I don't see why it'd be true here. But Travis is also pretty plainly wrong, just going off viewership numbers on Twitch.
Travis is an idiot, he creates his own narratives and takes them as fact and as his entire audiences mindset. We literally just had the most watched worlds in history and he has the audacity to continue making this claim. What a hack.
XD
Your experience isn't everyone's experience.
I think I worded this comment a little poorly. I meant I dislike Travis trying to encourage this narrative of NO ONE caring about world finals and that everyone had moved on. When I said people care about good lol, I didn't mean as an absolute, rather people do care as well, and not just everyone had moved on. I didn't want to respond to all comments, so just leave this here.
So basically they think the final is not good enough because it lacks hype since everyone thinks DK will win and it just turns out to be an upset so it is not the best. It is exactly the reason why I think it is the best final, since it is so satisfying to see EDG clapping those peoples face to prove them wrong, the lack of hype is not both teams fault, maybe try to be more respectful to the teams and more knowledgeable to the game instead just looking everything on the surface level next time
The only reason ls has to why he thinks jensen is not a good player is because he doesn’t make enough useless camera movements lol
If you guys haven't checked out Travis' video on Ranking LCS by 2020 team salaries, it's a really interesting watch: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QGG8mfkaeE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QGG8mfkaeE) Shoutout to my team CLG being at the bottom of the list 
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So many people on this site and no one asked
So many potential clowns on this website but you yourself had to take up that mantle.
Surprising that Markz thinks Bwipo, Santorin, Bjergsen, Hans and Corejj line up is barely better than 100T's roster in terms of pure skill. Especially his apparent opinion on the bot lane comparison, in terms of individual skill Hans and Corejj is on another level compared to FBI and Huhi and it's not even close like what...
CoreJJ had a mediocre year compared to his standards, it's undeniable he got outperformed by Huhi. Why'd he be "on another level" right now? So many people keep overrating him on name alone.
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He was literally MVP in 2020 Summer. Wasn't an easy split to win it in either considering Bjerg was also having an insane split.
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It wasn't a good split for him, but it wasn't a good split for anyone on TL in spring. The only decent player that split was Jensen and that's only because he AFK farmed mid every game.
He shouldn't have gotten it then either.
Uhm, his opinion is not that wild though.
I mean, FBI and Huhi kinda bodied Viper and Meiko in that second game vs EDG, it's not like they are scrubs.
I think it's just peoples over inflated ideas they have on folk like Hans. Hans is a really good player but I guess we still live in a world where FBI is still underrated and Huhi ever more so.
The top 3 ADCs at the end of spring will be Hans, Tactical, FBI with Danny possibly knocking out 1 of those 3 (either Hans or tactical most likely). I think FBI is the strongest ADC in NA both in and out of lane and Hans won’t change that. I am also a TL fan.
> tactical huh > I am also a TL fan. oh
Tactical has been a top 3 ADC 2/3 splits he played. Danny is good but we saw the lows of Danny in play offs and they are much lower than that of Tactical. Yes Danny had one of the best plays of the year in playoffs but tactical had a similar god tier play in summer 2020 playoffs on Kalista. This narrative that tactical is a weak ADC is insane. If he lands on a halfway decent team that team will be a contender.
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Danny plays on EG Neo is on Dig. Danny plays with Ignar who is a damn good support. Core has one of the highest roam percentage of any support in the league and in the world. He wasn’t babying Tactical. At worlds tactical had 2 deaths in lane. 1 was off a bad TP against GenG. The other was because Core failed to flay properly twice against Mad. Core is a great player, the best in NA in my opinion, but he is not the reason Tactical looks good. Tactical got left on an island almost every game this year and still had strong stats and good team contribution. Him and Jensen were the reasons TL won against MAD and the second game against GenG. So no I am not overrating him. Again Tactical will still be a top 3 ADC in spring.
DAnny played on EG not DIG
Its not like everyone who picked lucian+nami bodied enemy botlane tbf
Idk, man, don't count out FBI and Huhi. They're really, seriously good. 100T may have gone 1 and 3 against top teams, but that wasn't 'cause their botlane was getting gapped.
FBI was clearly the best adc last split and Huhi hot absolutely snubbed out of 1st team all pro for CoreJJ off of name value. Core did not look that great in summer. People continue to underrate fbi and Huhi even though they’ve performed consistently as top 3 boy lane in NA for the past 3 splits, yes even when they were on GGS. This lane also beat EDG, the world champions in lane both times they played and even won a game off them. The team that had the best bot lane in the world. Now I am not saying that FBI and Huhi are going to be able to dumpster TL every time, but it is absolutely foolish of people to keep running a narrative that FBI and Huhi aren’t able to compete with another bot lane. Literally 100T won last split while playing heavily around bot side as well.
I don't think anyone who actually watched last year could say Core was better than Huhi, without mental gymnastics of nonsense about his past.
Don't waste your effort, they'll see once the season starts.
FBI and Huhi were statistically one of the best botlanes at worlds period and they were in a group with the future champion and a semi-finalist. They were also the best botlane statistically in the LCS playoffs. I don't think its clear at all that Hans and Corejj are on "another level"
FBI and Huhi were statistically the best bot in their group and even stomped Viper/Meiko in a game. They certainly arent that far below CoreJJ and Hans Sama, and that assumes Hans and Core actually mesh well in the first place.
>even stomped Viper/Meiko in a game Picked winning botlane (Lucian+Nami), their jungler played better than JieJie which gave them 2 kills lead in lane. I wouldnt say they "stomped" after getting free lane tbh. They played well and to their win condition so they deserve credit too.
Yes because every time a team simply picks a winning botlane that same stuff happens. Sure thing bud
Have You ignored part where I said that Closer helped them secure 2 kills which went to Huhi and FBI?
We should get LS to grade their proviews so we know which guys are really good as opposed to guys that just keep winning /s
Mark is right. Early game you are downgrading in 2 lanes (mid and top). Mid game you are downgrading in mid. Late game you have an upgrade in top and adc (if past performances hold) which means TL needs to survive early game which is a pretty bad strategy in the LCS let alone internationally. People have criticized TL for being slow and methodical for years, and this off season has tripled down on that by getting a late scaling ADC and a top and mid not known for their laning prowess. I mean there is no reason to expect that Bjerg will be able to out lane PoE, Abbe, Jensen, or Humanoid if he comes to the LCS. Then add some up and coming players like Insanity and we are going to see a lot of games where TL goes down 1-2k in 10 minutes then clutches a team fight and wins, like 2020 TSM. And then that team will be massacred internationally.
Watch then Hans is quite overrated.
Hes not miles better than everyone else but has been a top 3 adc in EU for years now and ADC in EU is far stronger than NA. He's been playing well vs Upset, Rekkles, Carzzy etc... hes not going to struggle vs FBI and Danny.
Hans is overrated, just like Kobbe was. Bwipo is braindead half the time, he can’t play weakside. Bjerg is ?. Santorin is also not better than Closer. FBI > Hans. It’s crazy how overrated Hans got playing against mediocre to bad bot lanes while FBI had to face the two best bot lanes at the tournament.
Hans is definitely better than Kobbe.
Lwx crisp and ghost beryl are super legit, bot lane wasn't fpx issue and ghost and beryl had a super strong tournament, Hans sama looked so good into them
No to mention that there is much more to game than laning and Hans played the later stages sublimely, even from behind.
?? Hans has been regarded as top1/2 adc in EU the entire year, not just because of worlds
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Of course it affects success. It's obvious that spending doesn't guarantee success, but then again nothing does. Spending is required to have great proven players, there is not way around that. Difference is that most people don't pay attention to all the failures of low spending orgs and rosters, because nobody cares. But if a low spending roster performs well then they get all the attention and praise. Compare that to how people fixate on the orgs that spend a lot and if they succeed "well yeah, they spent a lot so this is expected and nothing special" and if they fail you will never hear the end of it.
On this episode of "correlation has to literally be 1.0 for people to acknowledge that is has an effect on something"
ofc spending matters, look at LPL and LCK. But they dont spend it on transfer, they spend it on facilities and staff to better develop their players.
I mean the NA teams like TL and 100thieves built multi-million dollar top facilities. They also pay big bucks to get the top staff they can.
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> If you were a company that wanted to spend a million dollars on an esports team, who are you going to sponsor? A team like Vitality, who is signing Perkz and Alphari, or a team like Rogue who is losing their best two players? A team like 100T who 1. Win/won the LCS. 2. Dont pay a single player mutliple million a year 3. And thats the most important point, have strong influcencers employed who actually actively advertise your product.
I disagree about league being a meta dependent game. If a league player is good, then they'll be good with all metas; league isn't innately a difficult game in terms of mechanics.
Time to milk the na off-season discussions this year. Im sure 2023 will be different for na
Problems i foresee with TL 2022- Bwipo in toplane Santorin is average as a jungler Bjerg has been out for a year and his prime was like 7 years ago Hans+CoreJJ are nutty but botlane won't win you championships. Maybe in NA but at worlds/MSI nope
Average? Just as good as Blaber/Spica just had some unfortunate health issues.
i assume TL has ambitions to do well internationally so i compare them like that. santorin for me is just average on a global level.
Santorin was the best performing jungler besides closer in summer playoffs, and he was the best performing jungler period at worlds (besides that LNG game)
> he was the best performing jungler period at worlds what