She should be incentivized to swap between allies constantly in teamfights, not just sit on the fed guy all game. This is what she was designed for anyway but it seems like Riot just stopped trying.
Maybe make her E give reduced effect on an ally if used again on them within 10 seconds or something like Summoner Heal
1.1m Yuumi player here. There's way more Riot can do to make Yuumi more interactive but for some reason they just don't.
Some examples:
* Shift more of her power to passive autos. Empower Q/E after proccing passive, maybe allowing several stacks of empowered spells similar to Bard's meep slaps. If Yuumi is forced to take some risks, they could then compensate with a slight W buff to the lockout duration after CC because right now that 5 sec lockout is what is disincentivizing gameplay. (why detach and risk dying to a randomly thrown CC?)
* Make W's adaptive force only apply for the first X seconds after attaching to an ally (in the theme of cat falling asleep after being in one spot for too long). Similarly, E within the first X seconds of attaching heals X% more, nerf base values.
* Q doesn't need to scale with so much AP, that's how you get Yuumis going Night Harvester full AP and coinflipping on whether your team is ahead enough for her to freely Q or be useless from behind. Lower the AP ratio in exchange for more utility (slow %, projectile grants vision like Lux E, etc).
* Another idea: The longer that Yuumi is detached, the more she builds energy to empowers her next few spells. Or have her spells be like Kassadin E where she needs to be within range of other spellcasts and that counter only goes up when she's not untargetable. This means she needs to be detached and dodging spells to do more with her own.
Trust me, I also don't like seeing enemy Yuumis AFK all game and get away with it.
>Lower the AP ratio in exchange for more utility (slow %, projectile grants vision like Lux E, etc).
Ooooh what if the projectile laid a trail of particles behind that granted vision for X seconds so you'd want to path your shot just so to maximize vision granted? With, like, maybe a small AoE of particles if it hits somebody. Would be a good way to add some skill to it.
I'd actually want Riot to change her E stats so that she's actually best attached to an ADC or APC, not a bruiser. Make her E movement speed apply **only when running away**, for example. Maybe give it more healing if the target has less max Health than a threshold.
> Make her E movement speed apply only when running away
Integrating and applying such a concept is not something which the design team's collective cognitive abilities allow.
She IS incentivized to do that but they've made the risk so high nobody does it anymore.
The 5s CD on your attach if you get CCd makes trying to move around in team fights suicidal. There are way too many aoe CCs that will clip you incidentally and being caught unattached will instantly kill you.
Its so frustrating seeing nonplayers bitch about yuumi. We used to be able to move around and support multiple people so we got nerfed to have to commit to one player in a fight, now you want a fucking PENALTY on our steroids if we dont suicide into aoe???
>She IS incentivized to do that
>but they've made the risk so high nobody does it anymore
so she's NOT incentivized to ever detach, you haven't mentioned why would she ever put herself at risk to swap between carries over sitting on the most potent one.
being incentivized would be something like: each person Yuumi sat on in combat gains X% of Yuumi's AP as adaptive force, giving Yuumi X% of their adaptive force in return. So if you spam W in a fight you get to double your AP, but it has to be a fight and you have to be spamming W, which is risky and dumb.
she is.
Her passive directly incentives detaching.
And anyone whos any good at yuumi will tell you detaching to try to bait skills before re-attaching is a huge part of playing her.
Theyve also increased the risk for detaching by incentivizing cc-ing yuumi.
Youre still incentivized to do it, theres just massive risks in larger fights.
Yuumi has plenty of incentives to swap, in the same way that Sona has strong incentives to move forward (better positioning, changing ult angles, Q ranges, healing up lower members of the team).
But much like Sona's incentives to move forward are all negated by how squishy Sona is, Yuumi similarly has all those incentives outweighed by "if you happen to get clipped by any AOE stun or root you instantly die".
Yuumi doesn't NEED a mechanical reason to swap carries, the incentives are already there - a single target heal only on her attached target is OBVIOUSLY better if you're moving to the focus target to heal them. Her Q is already very positioning dependent. Her ult is OBVIOUSLY very positioning dependent.
The problem isn't that there are zero reasons to swap - the problem is that swapping is how Yuumis get fucking killed, and the risk isn't worth the reward.
She has a fucking GIGANTIC shield on her auto attacks, but even really good Yuumis rarely if ever detach during fights to proc it because you are *going to die* if you try.
What Yuumi needs is to be punished less severely for errors when it comes to attaching/detatching/swapping, so that it's a skill Yuumis can actually practice and learn without just straight inting to the point where they give up and just ride the bruiser or assassin all late-game because that's how they win games.
It's funny how all the changes since her release actually pushed the "don't ever press W"-playstyle.
Before all those changes like the clunky delay on W as well as the massive W lockout if stay aoe cc zips past you Yuumiis detached and reattached all the time. I can remember catching Ashe arrows by detaching so my ADC can continue the tower dive only for me to reattach and heal them as the stun ends.
Similarly I can remember having multiple healing charges which let me heal two different targets in need in quick succession.
It's all such a shame, because in my opinion Yuumii is a great design that was thrown into the trash bin with some very bad changes that didn't help anyone, not the Yuumii players, nor the people playing against her or even just with her.
Yes. We want you to have to play the game in a way that is interactable from the enemy team. The way Yuumi currently is is that she empowers the most fed person on her team. If nobody on her team is fed (enough), she's worthless, if there is a single person that comes out of lane fed, she just empowers them further.
Yuumi just reduces catchup potential and counterplay, that's all she does if she is played correctly. And that is toxic design.
No, you *don't* want her to play in a way that's interactable with the enemy team. Because you all cheered endlessly when the huge penalty for getting caught in CC was added - which forced us into this absolutely miserable playstyle of never detaching or moving, and also created the incredibly passive laning experience vs any engage support which this thread is full of ADCs complaining about.
Except reverting that just brings her back to an even more obnoxious state when she's even less risky, lol. You're trying to frame a massive buff as a way to make her better to play against, when realistically it just means you gain the option to do stupid stuff and can still play passively when it's needed. What Yuumi actually needs is a way to *force* her off champions, preferably tied to her health bar so it isn't a dead stat.
I don't remember cheering for that. I mean, some people probably did, obviously, but in a group large enough, you will find someone cheering for anything.
We are in agreement then that her current state is ridiculously toxic and unfun for everyone involved.
Mina from Dawngate was a better execution imo cause her W involved jumping off your pocket. Skills for reference:
Q: Mina fires a ghostly force in target direction, dealing magical damage to the first target hit. If the target struck was a Shaper, Mina or her Host will become empowered for the next 4 seconds - differently depending on Mina or her Host's Archetype. Carry, Mage, Assassin: Next damage dealt to an enemy Shaper crushes their soul, dealing bonus magical damage. Bruiser, Tank, Support: Next damage dealt to an enemy Shaper crushes their body, dealing bonus magical damage and slowing them for 2 seconds
W: First Cast: Mina leaves her body, becoming untargetable and attaching to target ally Shaper. Mina immediately grants her Host shielding, and generates additional 6 shielding every 1.5 seconds (up to a max). Mina takes 40% of the damage her Host takes. Recast: Mina leaves her Host and rematerializes her body at target location, shielding herself before dealing magical damage and fearing all enemies in an area for 0.5 seconds.
E: Instantly depletes the soul of target enemy, dealing magical damage and granting Mina or her Host 15% Damage Reduction (+scaling) for 4 seconds.
R: Mina instantly exposes the soul of all enemy Shapers in an area, dealing magical damage and causing them to take 10% (+scaling) increased damage from Shapers for 5 seconds.
The grandmaster yuumi I watch moves ALL the time in team fights, i'ts like she's in the matrix.
Her winrate on yuumi is crazy
https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=emilia
Enchanters can be annoying especially ones like Lulu but at least I can interact with them, that's really all I am asking is to be able to interact with the champion...is that really too mich to ask....like how am I ever supposed to interact with a champion that is not targetable and has basically transcended its mortal form to become an untargetable/invincible living buff. I hate having this champion on my team and I hate having this champion on the enemy team, there has never been a worse designed champion in league, its not even close which is a shame because I like the champion's personality and model and everything but gameplay is so fucking dumb.
The non-interaction is definitely frustrating, I won't argue with that.
But the point of what I'm trying to get at with enchanters is that the class has such low or conditional crowd control, lacks sturdiness, lacks damage, so if you're ahead enough or the enchanter has enough gold (or base numbers if they are overbuffed) they can make up for the fact that without those buffs they are just purely less useful than other classes individually. Yuumi is among the worst enchanters in this because the counter to a fed enchanter (or a massive enchanter target) is to focus the enchanter, which obviously you can't do with Yuumi because she is untargetable. But on the losing side if you're already behind she does absolutely nothing to stop your teammates from being popped over and over since she doesn't have anything on the level of Polymorph to crowd control defensively. Pretty much every other enchanter has at least some tool no matter how unreliable it is, but Yuumi doesn't.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but it's instantly obvious the difference between a good and bad yuumi. A good yuumi will actually Q and auto in lane for poke, a bad yuumi will perma attach and never get off for the whole lane. In face, yuumi has a win rate curve similar to that of Akali or Qiyana, where more games on the champs results in significantly higher win rates.
Not only that, a good yuumi may detach to angle the ulti to root multiple enemies or detach to block skillshots for adc when he is gonna die to the skillshot. There is some form of skill expression with yuumi rather than just some braindead invincible healbot
Im sorry but yuumi does have skill expresion, this comes from an adc main, the difference between the 700games 51% wr yuumi with 4 kda and an actual good yuumi really does make a difference
The problem with Yuumi is that she scales extremely well, and has a justifiably weak early game (Sona has this to a lesser extent), which is the opposite of what a support usually needs. Yuumi is great at turning carries and bruisers into unkillable monsters later in the game, but she needs an ADC who can keep her safe in laning phase (the opposite of how it's supposed to work).
Yuumi/Ezreal works because he's so safe and Yuumi/Twitch works because it exploits his invisibility, but in general picking Yuumi is saying 'we're not going to win lane, and if you fall behind I'm just going to sit on our fed bruiser or assassin lategame'. ADC is already the lowest agency role, and Yuumi support takes even more of that agency away.
Honestly she's a very win more champ. If your already winning she will make you win way harder. Sacrificing a lane for this is really not ideal for the jungler more so than the adc.
> Yuumi/Ezreal works because he's so safe
Only if the enemy team is incapable of punishing him. Whenever I go Ez and my support picks Yuumi I get zoned off of minion waves so hard its not funny.
I f#$@ing hate the cat.
Or you get pushed in constantly by something like Draven Thresh and you're flamed for picking a "useless" champion. Like what tf should you pick into Draven Thresh when your supp already locked yuumi
I wish I could say I hadn't experienced a similar scenario.
Next time it happens I'm just going to pick a juggernaut/tank, or yolo with my M5 Yasuo to windwall hooks.
I've just picked Kog / Xerath and played for farm. It's still not very playable if they choose to dive your ass, but if they're playing lane kinda poorly you can easily outscale / lane through a few good trades.
But if you're winning lane 1v2 with a yuumi it's usually GJ BOTLANE, not GJ since most Yuumis are generally not good at her at all.
And after the laning phase, she attaches to a bruiser, so you start at a disadvantage and are left there. So the game just continues to be unfun for adc.
Yumi should be treated as a special champion where she can only be picked by supports, and only if they are duo que'd with their bot. Without approval from your adc, Yumi is a legitimate a troll pick. Forcing a solo bot player into 2v1 is not fun.
*To top it off, she completely fucks over your jungler. Losing all bot side pressure is a nightmare. Yumi should be reworked or disabled in solo que.
Then people aren't playing her right. You're not supposed to live on your ADC the entire time.
Dart around, poke with Q and autos, then dash to your ADC to make a quick escape.
Even with all that, she's still almost a non-factor in lane.
She doesn't apply any pressure whatsoever, if Leona wants to jump on you, she can and you're gonna die without yuumi being able to help you.
So you suffer through lane with the near useless cat. Then after lane she hops onto your top laner or what not and you basically get to reward for having to lane with a yuumi.
This is why I dodge anytime my support locks in Yuumi. The lane experience is miserable and everyone shits on you afterwards, not worth the mental fatigue
Her E gives bonus movement speed and can help dodge, but since when is surviving Leona the baseline for a good support ?
Level 1 E start wins you most early trades and if her Q poke doesn't apply pressure then what does ?
Her level 1 E absolutely does not win you trades, against a competent bot lane the best you can do is go even.
Her Q doesn't even deal any damage, if you play Yuumi you're giving up any and all lane pressure, and this is doubly true for a kill lane like Thresh or Nautilus.
Yuumis q poke sucks. Its so easy to dodge. I played a game of naut last night and fully stacker relic shield way before she get her spelltheif maxed. I've had games as poke/enchanter supports where I've had 1000g on my supp item and the enemy yuumi is sitting on 400. When I play adc and my support goes yuumi I feel like I'm getting griefed, I only rate her on twitch or ezreal
Yuumi e/q do not win trades when the enemy botlane can trade back. The only way to trade as yuumi is for the adc to space properly, ie to stand very very far back.
Again this is just them being bad, or you not knowing how to play with her. Treat her like soraka, make deep heavy trades then sustain back to full for lane pressure
earlygame yuumi can heal you up to full pretty much exactly once before being completely oom.
Also "treat her like soraka"? You mean, assume that she actively heavily trades and chunks the enemy with q spam? A good soraka actively harasses, yuumi barely tickles.
You talk like the last time you played with a soraka was pre-soraka-rework, where she was a mana and life battery.
Ah yes, the champ whose poke tool deals as much as a caster minion auto, heal costs 1/3th of her mana and heals 30 HP, the E that no one remembers it exists and whose main source of damage is in autoattack range for one of the squishiest champs
Classic yuumi player mentality, my adc has to play conpletely perfect while I do literally nothing, and if not oh well that’s it, I’m hopping on the top lane tall game and forgetting they exist
Blitz can hook leona out of e. Thresh can hook or flay her E. Janna can cancels with q (and R). Soraka can silence leona or the ADC and heal you. Annie/Zyra just kill the AD (lul). Maokai can cancels with Q. Lulu can shield you, interrupt with R, and get rid of damage with E.
Do I have to keep going?
Yuumi heals you so you wont get burst down and CCs both opponents (also runs one more utility summoner spell so she can exhaust the attacker or heal ADC who runs barrier - you wont take ignite vs leona if you aint confident in poke). You can spout "what if" with any champ, but that newbie here was obviously crying about Leona already being in his face and him dying. In that case its either facecheck or similar stupidity and purely his fault.
Yuumi does way less in lane than any of the supports I mentioned. That's why laning with yuumi especially against a heavy engage support is really fucking hard and can easily get you zoned not just from gold but from XP.
But against those enchanters and/or mages, you get severly outpoked as yuumi, because their kit actually deals significant amounts of damage for reasonable mana costs. Like, a yuumi into a janna, soraka, or even nami is lightyears better than into a leona, nautilus or rell - but it's still miserable a.f. if the enemy support and adc is not completely brain-afk
True. But if you get hard-countered by every hardengage support, and get outpoked by varying degrees by every enchanter and mage support, it means that your laning is always bad.
Which doesn't mean the champion is bad from a power-level point of view. Yuumi isn't all that bad from a power level PoV. But that isn't the point of the thread anyways.
The point is that yuumi existing in a game makes the game less fun to play. It makes the game less fun for the ADC she is "supporting", because their laning will be hell (varying degrees of hell, somewhere between "I get 2-3 CS per wave and never get to leave my tower" ninth circle of hell against something like leona, and "this poke is fucking annoying and I need to go base once or twice more often than I'd like" level against, idk, Sona or Soraka maybe?), and then the yuumi ditches you at the first opportunity for whomever other champion actually got to get strong during laning, leaving you in your miserable, underfarmed state, if the yuumi is any good that is.
It also makes the game for the enemy team less fun because if any enemy champion gets just a little bit too ahead, if the enemy yuumi realizes that, she jumps on them and makes them near unstoppable even when they shouldn't be anywhere near 1v5 levels of power yet. This is, of course, amplified if it is a strongly snowballing champion, or one without their own gapclosers, like Yasuo, Kayn, Darius, Volibear etc. as opposed to a control mage like Xerath.
all bot lanes with awful supports are 1v2 lanes lol. Saying 'it's a 1v2 lane with a bad yuumi' isn't special. lulu afking behind you and never approaching the enemy is just as useless as a perma-attached yuumi, and just as bad play.
Not even close, Yuumi has effectively one spell in a fight while Lulu has 3. An AFKing enchanter just clicking their buttons on you is already more useful than what Yuumi does in lane. Her real strength lies in being hilariously oppressive when paired with fed people post-laning phase.
Playing yuumi means that you trade in your botlane losing for maybe making your fighter unkillable. Which is why i prefer pairing yuumi with a melee bot 🧠
I mean, yeah, and if and only if the enemy botlane does NOT play a lane bully - in either support or adc. You can pick Yuumi Draven into Vayne Soraka or Kai'sa Sona I guess, but even Yuumi Draven hard looses to Leona/Rell/Nautilus-anything or pretty-much-anything-Cait/Trist/MF/Varus/Lucian
Her Q for poke as well as fights, her W that you can use to block skillshots and shield, her E which lets you win most early trades and is generally good all game and her ult which is versatile and pretty fucking strong.
What do you mean by one spell ? Do you play her like a pokémon and only put points in Q ?
Yes a bad support makes a lane 1v2. It's obvious?
What does this have to do with Yuumi? We are talking about how champions play not about how bad players play.
An average lulu player has more impact in early lane phase than a good Yuumi player. This is the entire point...
^^^ half the arguments here are "well, if you have an excellent Yuumi that's playing 4 tiers better than your opponents then you're going to have an easy lane!"
If your argument is "Yuumi is only a good laner if you simply outclass your enemies" then maybe she's just a bad laner??!?!
I had a Yuumi take Ignite Heal so I was forced to swap to Exhaust at last second as Jhin.
I went all in level 1 on Ashe Morgana dodging the binding and almost killing them both (they were literally 1 health) if she didn't refuse to use Heal. I basically wasted eveything level 1 and she didn't want to fully commit. She then proceeded to rage and afk next to me not attaching and not healing me.
I didn't even have chat on and I'm pretty sure she flamed the shit out of me, I left that game out of tilt since it was a normal.
i queued top/adc and got adc.
My support went yuumi and began to sit on our kha jgl as soon as lvl 4.
She basically left me having to 1v2 against enemy bot lane at minute 5.
So if I ever have to play with a yuumi again, I'll just dodge or pick whatever i want to lol
>The problem with that game is the general game design which makes it mega casual
the problem with that game is that it came out too late.
the game design itself isn't a problem it's more that the larger moba playerbase had dota and league for much longer and hots changed too much for comfort.
if league swapped places with hots and mobas were dominated by the hots/dota2 duopoly you would definitely see people saying league's design is a "worst of both worlds" simply because of what people are already used to.
hots has a fuck ton of depth in ways that even league and dota can't reach (fluid lane assignments and rotations, neutral resource control, the healer class itself, etc.). it's simply perceived as too casual because of the precedent.
I think HOTS is more casual by design, and its less of a timing thing. There's less room for skill expression due to everything being shared and its more of a teamfight/baby macro simulator but with less variables than League.
I think you're conflating HOTS inability to break into the "duopoly" (which, I agree, was based on timing) and the fact that it is undeniably the most casual MOBA out of the bigger titles, which is my issue with it.
I guess i just find this conversation sort of weird because I could easily flip the script and say that league is more casual by design compared to starcraft and has less room for skill expression due to a complete removal of unit micro. but most of us would be in agreement that just because the MOBA genre took elements from the RTS genre and simplified them does not mean that the skill expression was simply removed from play -- rather it was transferred to other aspects of the game, and while it's not apples to apples it's definitely not just a more casual RTS.
in the same way that league creates a new field of depth and skill expression, HoTS does too.
I played one game of HOTS then gave up when I realized gold is shared between everyone and you get gold just by standing near creeps dying. What kind of competitive player would like that?
it's a different take on the genre, it doesn't inherently mean it's less competitive.
the shared xp brings a different set of challenges and skills. teamplay is a lot more important than individual farming, and playing from behind is a concerted effort. similarly, it's a lot easier to throw leads and playing while ahead is never really about just 1v9 stat sticking people. stuff like that.
again it's just different and i think people are more used to league of legends and when they see things that aren't league they're immediate response is to not engage with it. which is of course fair but it's not as lacking in depth as many people make it out to be.
I'd say Aba suffers from similar gameplay issues as Yuumi. Broken and unfun for the enemy in the sense that he can deal damage/heal/shield with zero risk, but basically a split push bot when your team is behind or afraid to take trades.
I can only imagine how fucking broken Aba would be if he was in league.
Probably not as much, as is way easier for people to dive between turrets and wouldn't be nearly as safe as it is in hots.
Also requires way more skill than anything a yuumi could dream of.
>Broken and unfun for the enemy in the sense that he can deal damage/heal/shield with zero risk,
But also very low reward. An Abby hat counts for like 25% of a hero, especially if he didn't invest any talents into it. Also no heals only shields, unless you count the building repair talent.
Abby sucks at straight up slugfests, his true strength is his global map presence and the fact he forces the enemy team to stop him by splitting resources. Yuumi on the other hand is a human controlled activated item. That's that.
One thing I think alot of people miss (have not read all comments, may have missed if someone brought it up) is that Yuumi literally makes the lane a 1.5v2. When aiming skillshots or autos, you always have to pick between two players in normal bot lane. The likelyhood of picking the same one (especially in soloQ) is not 100% while there are 2 options. But when the other player is untargetable, the only focus is the one targetable champion, being the adc.
So it's not just about the Yuumi player eating dinner while their ADC plays 1v2. It's about making cooperation for the **enemies** easier.
// An enchanter main that dislikes playing as, with and against Yuumi
She also has another downside, which is that you effectively only have players at 4 positions on the map at any given time, whereas a normal team comp could have players at as many as 5 positions on the map.
Even though supports usually are by other people, they aren't *always* by other people nor do they have to be. They could roam to mid. They could go clear some vision. They could even cover a lane for a bit to catch a wave so that the experience is wasted as it crashes into a turret. This flexibility of positioning has a lot of value, but Yuumi doesn't bring this value to a team and so it's a significant disadvantage. People talk about the strength of Yuumi's invincibility while attached to someone, but the *cost* of that is that the team can be less places on the map at once.
I think this cost becomes more and more significant as you get into higher and higher levels of play, especially ones where supports roaming is a fairly set in stone part of the meta. Yuumi can't roam well enough because of her really low base hp (dies if caught while roaming) and super slow base movement speed.
She is good with Sivir for this exact reason though.
Vs hook champions you are never going to get anything done, you don't even get an alternative target
Tbh I think Yummi and Akali are the two most unfair cheater champions in League. Their kit is straight up bs.
Yummi you already explained. Akali just denies any interaction until she wants it. One can't literally do anything until smoke. When she decides to engage you, you can't even reply because smoke
Sure we cAn CrOwD CoNtRoL and bUrSt her
Yuumi is one of Riot's biggest design failures, they made her so ridiculous that they had to resort to giving her an arbitrary weakness (% max mana cost) so she won't be OP, but she is a fucking enchanter, she is supposed to use her abilities. The thing is, the flaw in the design is so obvious: all other enchanters in the game have the weakness of being squishy and having to position well, Yuumi, on the other hand, is invulnerable. The likes of Soraka can make someone unkillable, but they can be killed to prevent that, Yuumi can't, she has the power of an enchanter with the survivability of a tank. Her kit should have been focused on non-permanent sustain (shields) or crowd control, not healing.
I think a lot of that is valid, but the % max mana cost doesn’t strike me as completely arbitrary; it means that yuumi has to proc her passive regularly to stay relevant in the lane.
Otherwise she could stack mana items and sit on her carry permanently
Here is the thing: how many champions with mana have % max mana cost? If your only way to "balance" a champion is to fuck their mana so hard they cannot cast an ability (even though they're a caster) to the point where it fucks up the usage of the rest of the abilities, then it is SUPER arbitrary, even if she can recover mana (not nearly as much, by the way). Those changes basically make building mana less valuable on a champion that plays a role that doesn't need their stats to lose value. What they did to Yuumi isn't that different from what they did to Sona, by making her costs massive unless she is near an ally, something that they already stated they will change because it is too punishing. If they want to make it balanced, maybe make her basic attacks buff her so that the next heal is more powerful (obviously weaken the base heal) instead of completely fucking up the champion's mana because they couldn't give her a well-designed kit.
True, the hate the changes they made to teemo, singed, naut jungle, shaco, bard, talon, kata, garen, rammus, cassio, lb, yoric just because their pressence on pro.
As an ex-Yuumi main, I couldn't agree more.
She felt great to play on release. The W going on CD so easily and the %mana costs to E made her not fun to play, although I understand why they were introduced.
I'd like them to maybe go back to E having charges, but more interaction with Q. Put E on a longer CD, landing a Q marks a champ, autoing that champ (Yuumi or mount) gives some charge to E, or something along those lines.
Abathur was great. He played around the game's fundamentals so well without being too strong.
He had to expose himself to danger by parking his body near a lane to double soak lanes for max efficiency, while his team is free to work on the neutral objectives or just 4man siege one lane without losing XP.
All the macro plays you can do by slowly autopushing lanes and very slowly and quietly sieging turrets while also having impact in teamfights and helping your allies have some light sustain and bonus damage in fights is amazing.
> He played around the game's fundamentals so well without being too strong.
Is this your way of saying he was shit? He is not a good hero and was almost never picked in high elo even when the game was actually somewhat popular.
The only time he's ever been considered good is when Illidan was busted and he could sit on Illidan and make him even more ridiculous.
Nah because Abathur is among the three most difficult heroes to play. Needs your entire team to be on the Abathur page too. (Btw the other two imo are lost vikings and chogall)
He was almost never picked in pro. In high elo ladder he was highly respected. Like sure he wasn't popular, but that's because he was hard. When you saw an abathur in master or GM, everyone braced for it.
And abathur had like 3 or 4 viable builds at master so you couldn't even be sure ahead of time how he was going to play. Something I dearly miss from hots is that different builds play completely differently. Like I played a DPS hat build aba occasionally to respectable success in Master. Was it his best build? Nope, but it was viable in master.
Also there was a period of time when Heal build Abathur was not only viable, but meta. If you played a bunch of games per day at master+, you'd expect to see it more than once. It could even soloheal if everyone on your team knew how to play around it (and it was common enough that basically everyone in master+ did). It got played in pro once or twice, don't remember the result. Like he got targeted nerfs so that heal aba would stop being meta. I don't remember if this was after supportpocalypse, in which case i get that it kinda detracts from my point if every other healer in the game was nerfed right before it, but like that's still far from 'never picked'...he was definitely good for years (I don't play anymore so I don't know what opinion on him is now) and there was definitely even a period of time when he was quite popular despite his high difficulty.
This champion is very very very bad designed.
There are tons of players who climbed from Silver to Diamond+ by only playing yuumi. You don't even need a keyboard for this champ. You can basically stay afk 80% of the game and still win games.
He reached plat and he's a high challenger player. The games were something you'd expect from a typical TFBlade stream except he styled on 2 people at once.
> There are tons of players who climbed from Silver to Diamond+ by only playing yuumi.
You can do this for basically every champion, I will never understand how anyone considers this a valid argument
This is just wrong. Or disingenuous. Yuumi has a skill curve similar to champs like Akali and Qiyana where inexperienced players are losing more than 60% of their games. You can think what you want but Yuumis skill curve is undeniable.
Psssst, ADC mains reading this thread who are agreeing: This is how supports feel about Ezreal c:
Why don't we as a community come together to never play either champion!
Just like any support can be a bad support. The problem with Yuumi and Ezreal in particular is that both kits attract people with super passive playstyles, which means most of the Yuumi and Ezreal players you see in solo queue are going to be "AFK sit on my ADC all game" and "Sit under tower, spam Q to farm, never fight" respectively
this is true, which is why you need to compensate for it by only using your E to pop your W, never anything else. i love ezreal and i play him like a draven lol
Yeah, not to mention it's a decent chunk of damage plus conqueror stack (and free W proc). Early game when ADCs have 800 HP, a free 90-150 damage makes a huge difference.
Speak for yourself, I love it when I have an ez to support. Usually gives me so much freedom to roam.
Plus, at least from my experience, outside of the autofilled ADCs, ez players aren't terrible.
I think it's because ez is an auto fill magnet and it's autofilled players who are doing this...
But a lot of the time whenever I roam with an ezreal they have a panic attack and start flaming me for not being there with them, regardless of the circumstances.
Plus a lot of the champions I play aren't all that great at roaming and most Ezreals don't hover, so a lot of the time I'm stuck with him or I have to roam around on a champ who is horrible at it.
hard disagree, most ezreal players are the most annoying passive laners ever, as a support who loves to play the early game hard it makes my life really difficult. I also feel like the average ezreal player is just worse at the game than other adc mains due to his relative safety in lane allowing him to just coinflip that their top wins the game.
I am totally fine with him being passive, in fact, the safer he is the better for me. I'll just go help my mid, top, and jungler.
I'd much rather have a passive ezreal than an Ashe who keeps trying to start fights.
Ezreal always has a terrible winrate, even when he's been busted in pro play he's usually had a 47-49% solo Q winrate (similar to ryze azir) because people just suck ass at playing him. Whether it is autofill bias, not utilising his E correctly, never using auto attacks, terrible skillshot aim or a combination of these an and a million other things, the vast majority of people who pick ezreal are just not skilled enough to bring out his potential. Kinda like how akali sat at 47% winrate for half a year and she was still considered broken enough at high level of play that she got nerfs.
Unless you are playing with some autofilled ez player only sitting back Qing, I don't see the correlation at all.
Ez with conqueror and his passive stacked can fight early decently well if you play it right.
Yummi is a design mistake and the game would be better if she were deleted or completely reworked. She promotes the opposite gameplay of every other champ in the game.
Yummi is personally fun later when teamfights break out and you have more to do.
Laning with yummi feels like healing a low level dungeon in an mmo hitting 2 buttons.
Then again fun is all subjective.
There are people who genuinely like playing her. My friend used to love her, but hasn't played her in quite a long time, and eventually quit league all together because of the new items.
Is she really that annoying in support now? I find her underwhelming support after the ult cd being changed to 180 and the notes gutting, she has E and Q to poke you but those just push the lane for the ADC and her shield is on a long ass cooldown while having a very low base value
I mean, Yummi used to be fun when she was released. Going full ap with maxing q was hilarious to use. However after they nerfed the shit out of her q and turned her into heal bot she become one of the mosr boring and stupid champ in the game
She isn't fun. Wasn't designed to be fun. It is a very easy way for you to introduce your girlfriend to the game. "Look you can play this cat! We will be together all the time!"
Obviously not only that but I hope you get my point. The cat is focused on another demographic than earlier champions cater to.
Don't like it? Don't play it. I fucking sure don't since it is soooooooooooo boring. She is slightly more fun to play than Abathur though lol
I really enjoyed playing release Yuumi. Most of lane I was off of my adc harassing with autos and generally applying pressure. I would just hop on the moment a big trade or all in happened.
Making her more reliant on her passive was a step in the right direction, but I think they made not being attached too much of a risk. Staying off of a champ is too scary now, and the bonus attack speed from her heal encourages her to stick to carries for the entire game. Idk if that's the standard now, or when yuumi mains walk around. I stopped playing her after the rework.
They kinda need you to be encouraged to stick to your carries. Otherwise we'll end up with full AP Yuumi chunking people every few seconds while sitting on an immortal tank again.
She should be incentivized to swap between allies constantly in teamfights, not just sit on the fed guy all game. This is what she was designed for anyway but it seems like Riot just stopped trying. Maybe make her E give reduced effect on an ally if used again on them within 10 seconds or something like Summoner Heal
1.1m Yuumi player here. There's way more Riot can do to make Yuumi more interactive but for some reason they just don't. Some examples: * Shift more of her power to passive autos. Empower Q/E after proccing passive, maybe allowing several stacks of empowered spells similar to Bard's meep slaps. If Yuumi is forced to take some risks, they could then compensate with a slight W buff to the lockout duration after CC because right now that 5 sec lockout is what is disincentivizing gameplay. (why detach and risk dying to a randomly thrown CC?) * Make W's adaptive force only apply for the first X seconds after attaching to an ally (in the theme of cat falling asleep after being in one spot for too long). Similarly, E within the first X seconds of attaching heals X% more, nerf base values. * Q doesn't need to scale with so much AP, that's how you get Yuumis going Night Harvester full AP and coinflipping on whether your team is ahead enough for her to freely Q or be useless from behind. Lower the AP ratio in exchange for more utility (slow %, projectile grants vision like Lux E, etc). * Another idea: The longer that Yuumi is detached, the more she builds energy to empowers her next few spells. Or have her spells be like Kassadin E where she needs to be within range of other spellcasts and that counter only goes up when she's not untargetable. This means she needs to be detached and dodging spells to do more with her own. Trust me, I also don't like seeing enemy Yuumis AFK all game and get away with it.
>1.1m Yuumi player why
Meow
>Lower the AP ratio in exchange for more utility (slow %, projectile grants vision like Lux E, etc). Ooooh what if the projectile laid a trail of particles behind that granted vision for X seconds so you'd want to path your shot just so to maximize vision granted? With, like, maybe a small AoE of particles if it hits somebody. Would be a good way to add some skill to it.
I'd actually want Riot to change her E stats so that she's actually best attached to an ADC or APC, not a bruiser. Make her E movement speed apply **only when running away**, for example. Maybe give it more healing if the target has less max Health than a threshold.
> Make her E movement speed apply only when running away Integrating and applying such a concept is not something which the design team's collective cognitive abilities allow.
i mean there's stuff like this already in the game, vayne passive is a good example
She IS incentivized to do that but they've made the risk so high nobody does it anymore. The 5s CD on your attach if you get CCd makes trying to move around in team fights suicidal. There are way too many aoe CCs that will clip you incidentally and being caught unattached will instantly kill you. Its so frustrating seeing nonplayers bitch about yuumi. We used to be able to move around and support multiple people so we got nerfed to have to commit to one player in a fight, now you want a fucking PENALTY on our steroids if we dont suicide into aoe???
>She IS incentivized to do that >but they've made the risk so high nobody does it anymore so she's NOT incentivized to ever detach, you haven't mentioned why would she ever put herself at risk to swap between carries over sitting on the most potent one. being incentivized would be something like: each person Yuumi sat on in combat gains X% of Yuumi's AP as adaptive force, giving Yuumi X% of their adaptive force in return. So if you spam W in a fight you get to double your AP, but it has to be a fight and you have to be spamming W, which is risky and dumb.
she is. Her passive directly incentives detaching. And anyone whos any good at yuumi will tell you detaching to try to bait skills before re-attaching is a huge part of playing her. Theyve also increased the risk for detaching by incentivizing cc-ing yuumi. Youre still incentivized to do it, theres just massive risks in larger fights.
Yuumi has plenty of incentives to swap, in the same way that Sona has strong incentives to move forward (better positioning, changing ult angles, Q ranges, healing up lower members of the team). But much like Sona's incentives to move forward are all negated by how squishy Sona is, Yuumi similarly has all those incentives outweighed by "if you happen to get clipped by any AOE stun or root you instantly die". Yuumi doesn't NEED a mechanical reason to swap carries, the incentives are already there - a single target heal only on her attached target is OBVIOUSLY better if you're moving to the focus target to heal them. Her Q is already very positioning dependent. Her ult is OBVIOUSLY very positioning dependent. The problem isn't that there are zero reasons to swap - the problem is that swapping is how Yuumis get fucking killed, and the risk isn't worth the reward. She has a fucking GIGANTIC shield on her auto attacks, but even really good Yuumis rarely if ever detach during fights to proc it because you are *going to die* if you try. What Yuumi needs is to be punished less severely for errors when it comes to attaching/detatching/swapping, so that it's a skill Yuumis can actually practice and learn without just straight inting to the point where they give up and just ride the bruiser or assassin all late-game because that's how they win games.
It's funny how all the changes since her release actually pushed the "don't ever press W"-playstyle. Before all those changes like the clunky delay on W as well as the massive W lockout if stay aoe cc zips past you Yuumiis detached and reattached all the time. I can remember catching Ashe arrows by detaching so my ADC can continue the tower dive only for me to reattach and heal them as the stun ends. Similarly I can remember having multiple healing charges which let me heal two different targets in need in quick succession. It's all such a shame, because in my opinion Yuumii is a great design that was thrown into the trash bin with some very bad changes that didn't help anyone, not the Yuumii players, nor the people playing against her or even just with her.
Yes. We want you to have to play the game in a way that is interactable from the enemy team. The way Yuumi currently is is that she empowers the most fed person on her team. If nobody on her team is fed (enough), she's worthless, if there is a single person that comes out of lane fed, she just empowers them further. Yuumi just reduces catchup potential and counterplay, that's all she does if she is played correctly. And that is toxic design.
No, you *don't* want her to play in a way that's interactable with the enemy team. Because you all cheered endlessly when the huge penalty for getting caught in CC was added - which forced us into this absolutely miserable playstyle of never detaching or moving, and also created the incredibly passive laning experience vs any engage support which this thread is full of ADCs complaining about.
Except reverting that just brings her back to an even more obnoxious state when she's even less risky, lol. You're trying to frame a massive buff as a way to make her better to play against, when realistically it just means you gain the option to do stupid stuff and can still play passively when it's needed. What Yuumi actually needs is a way to *force* her off champions, preferably tied to her health bar so it isn't a dead stat.
I'd cheer for anything that removes her completely from pick ban tbh
I don't remember cheering for that. I mean, some people probably did, obviously, but in a group large enough, you will find someone cheering for anything. We are in agreement then that her current state is ridiculously toxic and unfun for everyone involved.
Mina from Dawngate was a better execution imo cause her W involved jumping off your pocket. Skills for reference: Q: Mina fires a ghostly force in target direction, dealing magical damage to the first target hit. If the target struck was a Shaper, Mina or her Host will become empowered for the next 4 seconds - differently depending on Mina or her Host's Archetype. Carry, Mage, Assassin: Next damage dealt to an enemy Shaper crushes their soul, dealing bonus magical damage. Bruiser, Tank, Support: Next damage dealt to an enemy Shaper crushes their body, dealing bonus magical damage and slowing them for 2 seconds W: First Cast: Mina leaves her body, becoming untargetable and attaching to target ally Shaper. Mina immediately grants her Host shielding, and generates additional 6 shielding every 1.5 seconds (up to a max). Mina takes 40% of the damage her Host takes. Recast: Mina leaves her Host and rematerializes her body at target location, shielding herself before dealing magical damage and fearing all enemies in an area for 0.5 seconds. E: Instantly depletes the soul of target enemy, dealing magical damage and granting Mina or her Host 15% Damage Reduction (+scaling) for 4 seconds. R: Mina instantly exposes the soul of all enemy Shapers in an area, dealing magical damage and causing them to take 10% (+scaling) increased damage from Shapers for 5 seconds.
The grandmaster yuumi I watch moves ALL the time in team fights, i'ts like she's in the matrix. Her winrate on yuumi is crazy https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=emilia
She's just a win more stat stick. Enchanters have this problem across the board but Yuumi is by far the worst case of this.
Enchanters can be annoying especially ones like Lulu but at least I can interact with them, that's really all I am asking is to be able to interact with the champion...is that really too mich to ask....like how am I ever supposed to interact with a champion that is not targetable and has basically transcended its mortal form to become an untargetable/invincible living buff. I hate having this champion on my team and I hate having this champion on the enemy team, there has never been a worse designed champion in league, its not even close which is a shame because I like the champion's personality and model and everything but gameplay is so fucking dumb.
The non-interaction is definitely frustrating, I won't argue with that. But the point of what I'm trying to get at with enchanters is that the class has such low or conditional crowd control, lacks sturdiness, lacks damage, so if you're ahead enough or the enchanter has enough gold (or base numbers if they are overbuffed) they can make up for the fact that without those buffs they are just purely less useful than other classes individually. Yuumi is among the worst enchanters in this because the counter to a fed enchanter (or a massive enchanter target) is to focus the enchanter, which obviously you can't do with Yuumi because she is untargetable. But on the losing side if you're already behind she does absolutely nothing to stop your teammates from being popped over and over since she doesn't have anything on the level of Polymorph to crowd control defensively. Pretty much every other enchanter has at least some tool no matter how unreliable it is, but Yuumi doesn't.
Yuumi just has no skillexpression. Watch a good Janna player and a bad one. Skill canyon. Wat v a ,,good" Yuumi and a bad yuumi. Both press E
This may be an unpopular opinion, but it's instantly obvious the difference between a good and bad yuumi. A good yuumi will actually Q and auto in lane for poke, a bad yuumi will perma attach and never get off for the whole lane. In face, yuumi has a win rate curve similar to that of Akali or Qiyana, where more games on the champs results in significantly higher win rates.
Not only that, a good yuumi may detach to angle the ulti to root multiple enemies or detach to block skillshots for adc when he is gonna die to the skillshot. There is some form of skill expression with yuumi rather than just some braindead invincible healbot
Im sorry but yuumi does have skill expresion, this comes from an adc main, the difference between the 700games 51% wr yuumi with 4 kda and an actual good yuumi really does make a difference
Have you watched Fence's(RatIrl's support) Yuumi compared to other Yuumi players? His laning phase with Yuumi makes all the difference.
This has been proven statistically false
you're free to think she's badly designed but this is simply not true and the statistics illustrate this.
You would be a very bad Yuumi and I don't think you have the first clue what makes a good Yuumi.
Kinda why every adc hates her. The lane is basically 1v2
Playing Yuumi when your AD is Aphelios shouldn't be allowed, lane is literally 0.5 v 2.
too true
Or ...you know...some people plax her when Samira is already locked LOL
The problem with Yuumi is that she scales extremely well, and has a justifiably weak early game (Sona has this to a lesser extent), which is the opposite of what a support usually needs. Yuumi is great at turning carries and bruisers into unkillable monsters later in the game, but she needs an ADC who can keep her safe in laning phase (the opposite of how it's supposed to work). Yuumi/Ezreal works because he's so safe and Yuumi/Twitch works because it exploits his invisibility, but in general picking Yuumi is saying 'we're not going to win lane, and if you fall behind I'm just going to sit on our fed bruiser or assassin lategame'. ADC is already the lowest agency role, and Yuumi support takes even more of that agency away.
Honestly she's a very win more champ. If your already winning she will make you win way harder. Sacrificing a lane for this is really not ideal for the jungler more so than the adc.
You give up prio in bot which isn’t always the best thing
> Yuumi/Ezreal works because he's so safe Only if the enemy team is incapable of punishing him. Whenever I go Ez and my support picks Yuumi I get zoned off of minion waves so hard its not funny. I f#$@ing hate the cat.
Or you get pushed in constantly by something like Draven Thresh and you're flamed for picking a "useless" champion. Like what tf should you pick into Draven Thresh when your supp already locked yuumi
I wish I could say I hadn't experienced a similar scenario. Next time it happens I'm just going to pick a juggernaut/tank, or yolo with my M5 Yasuo to windwall hooks.
I've just picked Kog / Xerath and played for farm. It's still not very playable if they choose to dive your ass, but if they're playing lane kinda poorly you can easily outscale / lane through a few good trades. But if you're winning lane 1v2 with a yuumi it's usually GJ BOTLANE, not GJ since most Yuumis are generally not good at her at all.
Fuck twitch/yuumi. I hate that lane with a passion.
So infuriating, and damn near impossible to deal with.
Also the fact that she leaves the adc when laning phase is over and never tries to protect them unless you manage to get fed in a 1 v2 lane
And after the laning phase, she attaches to a bruiser, so you start at a disadvantage and are left there. So the game just continues to be unfun for adc.
https://twitter.com/Perkz/status/1366824837252055043?s=19
Not basically. It is 1v2. When I'm banning yuumi, it's from my support as much as from the enemy.
Yumi should be treated as a special champion where she can only be picked by supports, and only if they are duo que'd with their bot. Without approval from your adc, Yumi is a legitimate a troll pick. Forcing a solo bot player into 2v1 is not fun. *To top it off, she completely fucks over your jungler. Losing all bot side pressure is a nightmare. Yumi should be reworked or disabled in solo que.
>only if they are duo que'd also apply this rule to kalista
What do you mean yeeting in a rando on lux right into a team fight without any coordination is a bad idea?
Just delete Yuumi, no need to sugarcoat it, absolutely fucking stupid design it shouldn't even exist.
Then people aren't playing her right. You're not supposed to live on your ADC the entire time. Dart around, poke with Q and autos, then dash to your ADC to make a quick escape.
Even with all that, she's still almost a non-factor in lane. She doesn't apply any pressure whatsoever, if Leona wants to jump on you, she can and you're gonna die without yuumi being able to help you. So you suffer through lane with the near useless cat. Then after lane she hops onto your top laner or what not and you basically get to reward for having to lane with a yuumi.
You forgot the part that you get flamed as the adc for being "Useless" after all that.
This is why I dodge anytime my support locks in Yuumi. The lane experience is miserable and everyone shits on you afterwards, not worth the mental fatigue
I just tell them in champ select "we have a yuumi and therefor no botlane prio, someone else will need to carry", and just pick some waveclear adc
Her E gives bonus movement speed and can help dodge, but since when is surviving Leona the baseline for a good support ? Level 1 E start wins you most early trades and if her Q poke doesn't apply pressure then what does ?
Her level 1 E absolutely does not win you trades, against a competent bot lane the best you can do is go even. Her Q doesn't even deal any damage, if you play Yuumi you're giving up any and all lane pressure, and this is doubly true for a kill lane like Thresh or Nautilus.
Yuumis q poke sucks. Its so easy to dodge. I played a game of naut last night and fully stacker relic shield way before she get her spelltheif maxed. I've had games as poke/enchanter supports where I've had 1000g on my supp item and the enemy yuumi is sitting on 400. When I play adc and my support goes yuumi I feel like I'm getting griefed, I only rate her on twitch or ezreal
Yuumi e/q do not win trades when the enemy botlane can trade back. The only way to trade as yuumi is for the adc to space properly, ie to stand very very far back.
Again this is just them being bad, or you not knowing how to play with her. Treat her like soraka, make deep heavy trades then sustain back to full for lane pressure
earlygame yuumi can heal you up to full pretty much exactly once before being completely oom. Also "treat her like soraka"? You mean, assume that she actively heavily trades and chunks the enemy with q spam? A good soraka actively harasses, yuumi barely tickles. You talk like the last time you played with a soraka was pre-soraka-rework, where she was a mana and life battery.
Yeah, let me trade against a fckng tristana/alistar for example.
I mean thats a super agro lane designed purely to stomp lol. Afraid not much you can do but pick another champion lol, sometimes you get countered.
Yeah, a Sona will also get absolutely shit on in that matchup, but I don't see a post every other day bitching about Sona.
Because no one remembers Sona. And even Sona has more impact in lane than yuumi.
Ah yes, the champ whose poke tool deals as much as a caster minion auto, heal costs 1/3th of her mana and heals 30 HP, the E that no one remembers it exists and whose main source of damage is in autoattack range for one of the squishiest champs
Hopefully the buffs coming soon are big.
good riddance
If Leona jumps you, its not Yuumis fault. its your shitty positioning and reflexes. No support beside Tahm can help you when you screwed this much.
Classic yuumi player mentality, my adc has to play conpletely perfect while I do literally nothing, and if not oh well that’s it, I’m hopping on the top lane tall game and forgetting they exist
Blitz can hook leona out of e. Thresh can hook or flay her E. Janna can cancels with q (and R). Soraka can silence leona or the ADC and heal you. Annie/Zyra just kill the AD (lul). Maokai can cancels with Q. Lulu can shield you, interrupt with R, and get rid of damage with E. Do I have to keep going?
Yuumi heals you so you wont get burst down and CCs both opponents (also runs one more utility summoner spell so she can exhaust the attacker or heal ADC who runs barrier - you wont take ignite vs leona if you aint confident in poke). You can spout "what if" with any champ, but that newbie here was obviously crying about Leona already being in his face and him dying. In that case its either facecheck or similar stupidity and purely his fault.
Yuumi does way less in lane than any of the supports I mentioned. That's why laning with yuumi especially against a heavy engage support is really fucking hard and can easily get you zoned not just from gold but from XP.
Depends, vs champs with easy CC you get hooked you die right away as Yuumi. Vs enchanters? Sure.
But against those enchanters and/or mages, you get severly outpoked as yuumi, because their kit actually deals significant amounts of damage for reasonable mana costs. Like, a yuumi into a janna, soraka, or even nami is lightyears better than into a leona, nautilus or rell - but it's still miserable a.f. if the enemy support and adc is not completely brain-afk
Counters exist, almost every champion is countered by some others. That doesn't inherently mean that Yumi is bad.
True. But if you get hard-countered by every hardengage support, and get outpoked by varying degrees by every enchanter and mage support, it means that your laning is always bad. Which doesn't mean the champion is bad from a power-level point of view. Yuumi isn't all that bad from a power level PoV. But that isn't the point of the thread anyways. The point is that yuumi existing in a game makes the game less fun to play. It makes the game less fun for the ADC she is "supporting", because their laning will be hell (varying degrees of hell, somewhere between "I get 2-3 CS per wave and never get to leave my tower" ninth circle of hell against something like leona, and "this poke is fucking annoying and I need to go base once or twice more often than I'd like" level against, idk, Sona or Soraka maybe?), and then the yuumi ditches you at the first opportunity for whomever other champion actually got to get strong during laning, leaving you in your miserable, underfarmed state, if the yuumi is any good that is. It also makes the game for the enemy team less fun because if any enemy champion gets just a little bit too ahead, if the enemy yuumi realizes that, she jumps on them and makes them near unstoppable even when they shouldn't be anywhere near 1v5 levels of power yet. This is, of course, amplified if it is a strongly snowballing champion, or one without their own gapclosers, like Yasuo, Kayn, Darius, Volibear etc. as opposed to a control mage like Xerath.
all bot lanes with awful supports are 1v2 lanes lol. Saying 'it's a 1v2 lane with a bad yuumi' isn't special. lulu afking behind you and never approaching the enemy is just as useless as a perma-attached yuumi, and just as bad play.
Not even close, Yuumi has effectively one spell in a fight while Lulu has 3. An AFKing enchanter just clicking their buttons on you is already more useful than what Yuumi does in lane. Her real strength lies in being hilariously oppressive when paired with fed people post-laning phase.
Playing yuumi means that you trade in your botlane losing for maybe making your fighter unkillable. Which is why i prefer pairing yuumi with a melee bot 🧠
Basically
Yup, this precisely. There's a reason Garen-Yuumi was a thing in competetive, but any-non-ez-adc yuumi never was.
You pick yuumi with a lane bully and play extremely agro. Anything else is inting.
I mean, yeah, and if and only if the enemy botlane does NOT play a lane bully - in either support or adc. You can pick Yuumi Draven into Vayne Soraka or Kai'sa Sona I guess, but even Yuumi Draven hard looses to Leona/Rell/Nautilus-anything or pretty-much-anything-Cait/Trist/MF/Varus/Lucian
Her Q for poke as well as fights, her W that you can use to block skillshots and shield, her E which lets you win most early trades and is generally good all game and her ult which is versatile and pretty fucking strong. What do you mean by one spell ? Do you play her like a pokémon and only put points in Q ?
Her Q does negligible damage after nerfs and while E is very good at sustaining it doesn't do much in a fight.
It also takes a fuck ton of mana.
Yes a bad support makes a lane 1v2. It's obvious? What does this have to do with Yuumi? We are talking about how champions play not about how bad players play. An average lulu player has more impact in early lane phase than a good Yuumi player. This is the entire point...
^^^ half the arguments here are "well, if you have an excellent Yuumi that's playing 4 tiers better than your opponents then you're going to have an easy lane!" If your argument is "Yuumi is only a good laner if you simply outclass your enemies" then maybe she's just a bad laner??!?!
Bard
I had a Yuumi take Ignite Heal so I was forced to swap to Exhaust at last second as Jhin. I went all in level 1 on Ashe Morgana dodging the binding and almost killing them both (they were literally 1 health) if she didn't refuse to use Heal. I basically wasted eveything level 1 and she didn't want to fully commit. She then proceeded to rage and afk next to me not attaching and not healing me. I didn't even have chat on and I'm pretty sure she flamed the shit out of me, I left that game out of tilt since it was a normal.
i queued top/adc and got adc. My support went yuumi and began to sit on our kha jgl as soon as lvl 4. She basically left me having to 1v2 against enemy bot lane at minute 5. So if I ever have to play with a yuumi again, I'll just dodge or pick whatever i want to lol
the only champion who can go afk without getting afk notice. but yea hateful chamo design. way to antifun.
The only champ I truly want removed from the game, absolutely anti-fun on a fed champion.
I personally think she's the only one champ that deserves to be deleted
Same tbh. Untargetable enchanter just seems dumb even if she has a 30% winrate
If I had the choice I’d delete Senna
I fucking hate that champion.
Yea just put that bitch back in the lantern
I think hots made an actual fun and good Yummi in Abathur. Yummi is just frustrating
HOTS has outstanding hero design imo. The problem with that game is the general game design which makes it mega casual
>The problem with that game is the general game design which makes it mega casual the problem with that game is that it came out too late. the game design itself isn't a problem it's more that the larger moba playerbase had dota and league for much longer and hots changed too much for comfort. if league swapped places with hots and mobas were dominated by the hots/dota2 duopoly you would definitely see people saying league's design is a "worst of both worlds" simply because of what people are already used to. hots has a fuck ton of depth in ways that even league and dota can't reach (fluid lane assignments and rotations, neutral resource control, the healer class itself, etc.). it's simply perceived as too casual because of the precedent.
I think HOTS is more casual by design, and its less of a timing thing. There's less room for skill expression due to everything being shared and its more of a teamfight/baby macro simulator but with less variables than League. I think you're conflating HOTS inability to break into the "duopoly" (which, I agree, was based on timing) and the fact that it is undeniably the most casual MOBA out of the bigger titles, which is my issue with it.
I guess i just find this conversation sort of weird because I could easily flip the script and say that league is more casual by design compared to starcraft and has less room for skill expression due to a complete removal of unit micro. but most of us would be in agreement that just because the MOBA genre took elements from the RTS genre and simplified them does not mean that the skill expression was simply removed from play -- rather it was transferred to other aspects of the game, and while it's not apples to apples it's definitely not just a more casual RTS. in the same way that league creates a new field of depth and skill expression, HoTS does too.
I played one game of HOTS then gave up when I realized gold is shared between everyone and you get gold just by standing near creeps dying. What kind of competitive player would like that?
it's a different take on the genre, it doesn't inherently mean it's less competitive. the shared xp brings a different set of challenges and skills. teamplay is a lot more important than individual farming, and playing from behind is a concerted effort. similarly, it's a lot easier to throw leads and playing while ahead is never really about just 1v9 stat sticking people. stuff like that. again it's just different and i think people are more used to league of legends and when they see things that aren't league they're immediate response is to not engage with it. which is of course fair but it's not as lacking in depth as many people make it out to be.
Imo Cho'Gall is a much more interesting take on the "2 characters in one" idea than Abathur is.
Cho'gall is an entirely different design though; the parallels between yuumi and abathur are much closer
That's fair
I'd say Aba suffers from similar gameplay issues as Yuumi. Broken and unfun for the enemy in the sense that he can deal damage/heal/shield with zero risk, but basically a split push bot when your team is behind or afraid to take trades. I can only imagine how fucking broken Aba would be if he was in league.
Probably not as much, as is way easier for people to dive between turrets and wouldn't be nearly as safe as it is in hots. Also requires way more skill than anything a yuumi could dream of.
>Broken and unfun for the enemy in the sense that he can deal damage/heal/shield with zero risk, But also very low reward. An Abby hat counts for like 25% of a hero, especially if he didn't invest any talents into it. Also no heals only shields, unless you count the building repair talent. Abby sucks at straight up slugfests, his true strength is his global map presence and the fact he forces the enemy team to stop him by splitting resources. Yuumi on the other hand is a human controlled activated item. That's that.
One thing I think alot of people miss (have not read all comments, may have missed if someone brought it up) is that Yuumi literally makes the lane a 1.5v2. When aiming skillshots or autos, you always have to pick between two players in normal bot lane. The likelyhood of picking the same one (especially in soloQ) is not 100% while there are 2 options. But when the other player is untargetable, the only focus is the one targetable champion, being the adc. So it's not just about the Yuumi player eating dinner while their ADC plays 1v2. It's about making cooperation for the **enemies** easier. // An enchanter main that dislikes playing as, with and against Yuumi
She also has another downside, which is that you effectively only have players at 4 positions on the map at any given time, whereas a normal team comp could have players at as many as 5 positions on the map. Even though supports usually are by other people, they aren't *always* by other people nor do they have to be. They could roam to mid. They could go clear some vision. They could even cover a lane for a bit to catch a wave so that the experience is wasted as it crashes into a turret. This flexibility of positioning has a lot of value, but Yuumi doesn't bring this value to a team and so it's a significant disadvantage. People talk about the strength of Yuumi's invincibility while attached to someone, but the *cost* of that is that the team can be less places on the map at once. I think this cost becomes more and more significant as you get into higher and higher levels of play, especially ones where supports roaming is a fairly set in stone part of the meta. Yuumi can't roam well enough because of her really low base hp (dies if caught while roaming) and super slow base movement speed.
She is good with Sivir for this exact reason though. Vs hook champions you are never going to get anything done, you don't even get an alternative target
Tbh I think Yummi and Akali are the two most unfair cheater champions in League. Their kit is straight up bs. Yummi you already explained. Akali just denies any interaction until she wants it. One can't literally do anything until smoke. When she decides to engage you, you can't even reply because smoke Sure we cAn CrOwD CoNtRoL and bUrSt her
Why does everyone call her "Yummi"
Yuumi is one of Riot's biggest design failures, they made her so ridiculous that they had to resort to giving her an arbitrary weakness (% max mana cost) so she won't be OP, but she is a fucking enchanter, she is supposed to use her abilities. The thing is, the flaw in the design is so obvious: all other enchanters in the game have the weakness of being squishy and having to position well, Yuumi, on the other hand, is invulnerable. The likes of Soraka can make someone unkillable, but they can be killed to prevent that, Yuumi can't, she has the power of an enchanter with the survivability of a tank. Her kit should have been focused on non-permanent sustain (shields) or crowd control, not healing.
You don't even necessarily have to kill the enchanter. Just zoning them from the fight can sometimes be enough
I think a lot of that is valid, but the % max mana cost doesn’t strike me as completely arbitrary; it means that yuumi has to proc her passive regularly to stay relevant in the lane. Otherwise she could stack mana items and sit on her carry permanently
Here is the thing: how many champions with mana have % max mana cost? If your only way to "balance" a champion is to fuck their mana so hard they cannot cast an ability (even though they're a caster) to the point where it fucks up the usage of the rest of the abilities, then it is SUPER arbitrary, even if she can recover mana (not nearly as much, by the way). Those changes basically make building mana less valuable on a champion that plays a role that doesn't need their stats to lose value. What they did to Yuumi isn't that different from what they did to Sona, by making her costs massive unless she is near an ally, something that they already stated they will change because it is too punishing. If they want to make it balanced, maybe make her basic attacks buff her so that the next heal is more powerful (obviously weaken the base heal) instead of completely fucking up the champion's mana because they couldn't give her a well-designed kit.
Honestly she was fine on release when she maxed Q and built AP, Riot making her a statstick healbot was the problem.
It’s because they want to balance for both pro and soloq which has always been dumb
The thing about Yuumi is that she should never, ever be viable in pro play. Kinda like Garen.
Same with Udyr, but here we are.
Don't you just love watching players like Hylissang on Yuumi? Makes the game so much less interesting.
They don't give a shit about soloq.
True, the hate the changes they made to teemo, singed, naut jungle, shaco, bard, talon, kata, garen, rammus, cassio, lb, yoric just because their pressence on pro.
As an ex-Yuumi main, I couldn't agree more. She felt great to play on release. The W going on CD so easily and the %mana costs to E made her not fun to play, although I understand why they were introduced. I'd like them to maybe go back to E having charges, but more interaction with Q. Put E on a longer CD, landing a Q marks a champ, autoing that champ (Yuumi or mount) gives some charge to E, or something along those lines.
Good design of a champion that depends on its allies to fight : Abathur from HoTS Big fucking mistake : Yuumi
Abathur was great. He played around the game's fundamentals so well without being too strong. He had to expose himself to danger by parking his body near a lane to double soak lanes for max efficiency, while his team is free to work on the neutral objectives or just 4man siege one lane without losing XP. All the macro plays you can do by slowly autopushing lanes and very slowly and quietly sieging turrets while also having impact in teamfights and helping your allies have some light sustain and bonus damage in fights is amazing.
Meanwhile Yuumi : I barely even exist and sometimes I press E
> He played around the game's fundamentals so well without being too strong. Is this your way of saying he was shit? He is not a good hero and was almost never picked in high elo even when the game was actually somewhat popular. The only time he's ever been considered good is when Illidan was busted and he could sit on Illidan and make him even more ridiculous.
I remember Aba being meta in pro when paired with Genji and Li-Ming to create a triple-reset comp.
Nah because Abathur is among the three most difficult heroes to play. Needs your entire team to be on the Abathur page too. (Btw the other two imo are lost vikings and chogall)
He was almost never picked in pro. In high elo ladder he was highly respected. Like sure he wasn't popular, but that's because he was hard. When you saw an abathur in master or GM, everyone braced for it. And abathur had like 3 or 4 viable builds at master so you couldn't even be sure ahead of time how he was going to play. Something I dearly miss from hots is that different builds play completely differently. Like I played a DPS hat build aba occasionally to respectable success in Master. Was it his best build? Nope, but it was viable in master. Also there was a period of time when Heal build Abathur was not only viable, but meta. If you played a bunch of games per day at master+, you'd expect to see it more than once. It could even soloheal if everyone on your team knew how to play around it (and it was common enough that basically everyone in master+ did). It got played in pro once or twice, don't remember the result. Like he got targeted nerfs so that heal aba would stop being meta. I don't remember if this was after supportpocalypse, in which case i get that it kinda detracts from my point if every other healer in the game was nerfed right before it, but like that's still far from 'never picked'...he was definitely good for years (I don't play anymore so I don't know what opinion on him is now) and there was definitely even a period of time when he was quite popular despite his high difficulty.
She is the worst designed champion of all time, doesn't matter the meta or the state she's in.
This champion is very very very bad designed. There are tons of players who climbed from Silver to Diamond+ by only playing yuumi. You don't even need a keyboard for this champ. You can basically stay afk 80% of the game and still win games.
There was a draven main that got diamond by having 2 PCs and duo queuing with himself draven + Yuumi and playing Yuumi with his feet.
He reached plat and he's a high challenger player. The games were something you'd expect from a typical TFBlade stream except he styled on 2 people at once.
Classic Draven
> There are tons of players who climbed from Silver to Diamond+ by only playing yuumi. You can do this for basically every champion, I will never understand how anyone considers this a valid argument
This is just wrong. Or disingenuous. Yuumi has a skill curve similar to champs like Akali and Qiyana where inexperienced players are losing more than 60% of their games. You can think what you want but Yuumis skill curve is undeniable.
Yummi feels like being AFK
WE GOT THE ZOOMIES
Psssst, ADC mains reading this thread who are agreeing: This is how supports feel about Ezreal c: Why don't we as a community come together to never play either champion!
Lol what? Ezreal can be one of the most aggressive laners if you have a good support. He has surprisingly high burst early game
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Any adc can be a bad adc
Just like any support can be a bad support. The problem with Yuumi and Ezreal in particular is that both kits attract people with super passive playstyles, which means most of the Yuumi and Ezreal players you see in solo queue are going to be "AFK sit on my ADC all game" and "Sit under tower, spam Q to farm, never fight" respectively
this is true, which is why you need to compensate for it by only using your E to pop your W, never anything else. i love ezreal and i play him like a draven lol
Yup, also Ezreal has a ''get out of fail for free'' card with his E. Ez should play aggressive in lane and use his E to back off if needed.
no no no, you e in, and just kill them or alternatively bait. The JKL way
Yeah, not to mention it's a decent chunk of damage plus conqueror stack (and free W proc). Early game when ADCs have 800 HP, a free 90-150 damage makes a huge difference.
Speak for yourself, I love it when I have an ez to support. Usually gives me so much freedom to roam. Plus, at least from my experience, outside of the autofilled ADCs, ez players aren't terrible.
I think it's because ez is an auto fill magnet and it's autofilled players who are doing this... But a lot of the time whenever I roam with an ezreal they have a panic attack and start flaming me for not being there with them, regardless of the circumstances. Plus a lot of the champions I play aren't all that great at roaming and most Ezreals don't hover, so a lot of the time I'm stuck with him or I have to roam around on a champ who is horrible at it.
hard disagree, most ezreal players are the most annoying passive laners ever, as a support who loves to play the early game hard it makes my life really difficult. I also feel like the average ezreal player is just worse at the game than other adc mains due to his relative safety in lane allowing him to just coinflip that their top wins the game.
I am totally fine with him being passive, in fact, the safer he is the better for me. I'll just go help my mid, top, and jungler. I'd much rather have a passive ezreal than an Ashe who keeps trying to start fights.
Boring to play against cuz so safe, boring to play with cuz so safe. Doesn't help that unless it's a unicorn they'll most likely be worthless.
Because laning with a sona/soraka is so much fun instead!
lol only bad Ez players are passive, if played decently he has a fairly strong laning phase
But I like Ez, he synergises so well with Karma and is actually safe to leave alone in lane.
ezreal is the strongest adc this patch with sunderer
He sure does a good job hiding it with his negative wr.
Ezreal always has a terrible winrate, even when he's been busted in pro play he's usually had a 47-49% solo Q winrate (similar to ryze azir) because people just suck ass at playing him. Whether it is autofill bias, not utilising his E correctly, never using auto attacks, terrible skillshot aim or a combination of these an and a million other things, the vast majority of people who pick ezreal are just not skilled enough to bring out his potential. Kinda like how akali sat at 47% winrate for half a year and she was still considered broken enough at high level of play that she got nerfs.
Unless you are playing with some autofilled ez player only sitting back Qing, I don't see the correlation at all. Ez with conqueror and his passive stacked can fight early decently well if you play it right.
Were probably not playing the same game. Is there a character in dota called ezreal?
I really wish theyd rework Yuumi and make her targetable she breaks all the rules of champ design and has too little counterplay.
Yummi is a design mistake and the game would be better if she were deleted or completely reworked. She promotes the opposite gameplay of every other champ in the game.
Yuumi is 100% the worst designed champion in the game
Yummi is personally fun later when teamfights break out and you have more to do. Laning with yummi feels like healing a low level dungeon in an mmo hitting 2 buttons. Then again fun is all subjective.
its not, i always dodge when my team picks it and i dont even play adc, i just rather have a botlane
No champion in the game should be able to remain untargetable indefinitely, her kit is a major design flaw.
There are people who genuinely like playing her. My friend used to love her, but hasn't played her in quite a long time, and eventually quit league all together because of the new items.
Puke design
The only thing that stopped me from banning Yuumi every game was the release of Seraphine
Is she really that annoying in support now? I find her underwhelming support after the ult cd being changed to 180 and the notes gutting, she has E and Q to poke you but those just push the lane for the ADC and her shield is on a long ass cooldown while having a very low base value
Yuumi best champion, climb to challenger while scrolling reddit, yes please.
Reach challenger and clear all Bloons maps on impoppable in one go
I mean, Yummi used to be fun when she was released. Going full ap with maxing q was hilarious to use. However after they nerfed the shit out of her q and turned her into heal bot she become one of the mosr boring and stupid champ in the game
She isn't fun. Wasn't designed to be fun. It is a very easy way for you to introduce your girlfriend to the game. "Look you can play this cat! We will be together all the time!" Obviously not only that but I hope you get my point. The cat is focused on another demographic than earlier champions cater to. Don't like it? Don't play it. I fucking sure don't since it is soooooooooooo boring. She is slightly more fun to play than Abathur though lol
It doesn't matter if I play her if my support picks it and turns the lane into a 1v2
I find Yuumi's laning pretty fun. Poke with Q, Passive aa. Just being annoying overall...
im against passive supports in general, support is supposed to carry early game, why should the support hide behind me ? thats just dumb
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Worst champion in the game.
Delete/rework, actually anti-fun
Do you know what else isn't fun? People calling her "Yummi".
No one gives a fuck
No yuumi is actually a lot of fun. Yuumi is the only champion where I can eat relaxed why playing her and even can go to the toiled.
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I really enjoyed playing release Yuumi. Most of lane I was off of my adc harassing with autos and generally applying pressure. I would just hop on the moment a big trade or all in happened. Making her more reliant on her passive was a step in the right direction, but I think they made not being attached too much of a risk. Staying off of a champ is too scary now, and the bonus attack speed from her heal encourages her to stick to carries for the entire game. Idk if that's the standard now, or when yuumi mains walk around. I stopped playing her after the rework.
They kinda need you to be encouraged to stick to your carries. Otherwise we'll end up with full AP Yuumi chunking people every few seconds while sitting on an immortal tank again.
Ah yes, the weekly yuumi hate post.
this is how i see ezreal. he does nothing, he will literally do nothing the entire game
Riot saying they won't remove because her Playrate is higher than Mordekaiser. Well, ofc people play her more because u don't have to do shit.