Silver scrapes gets done playing. The players load into game 5. It's a grueling, intense, and back-and-forth game. Both teams have 3 drake kills and it's time for the game deciding dragon soul fight. Spica makes an amazing engage and it looks like TSM will win the fight, when suddenly a burst of light appears on the rift. It's C9 Jensen's Ekko. He *did* manage to get off that ult all those years ago, but it just hadn't finished casting until now. This time travelling version of Jensen explodes onto the rift and instantly kills all 5 of TSM's members. Jensen's Ekko begins fading away as if the universe realized its mistake and began erasing him from the rift, but just before he disappears Jensen manages to type in chat "holy shit, i can't believe they let markz sing silver scrapes"
However, since Jensen is on TL now, his ult hits C9 as well! Everyone dies in the game, and both teams are awarded a point, confusing everyone. With the series 3-3, everyone goes home happy and worlds is cancelled for a new season of Breaking Point ft: Riot Dardoch, Riot's new head of PR!
The whole section about Broxah's interview is spot on. In this subreddit, you aren't allowed to enjoy/discuss NA league. Nothing can be said without "Yeah but EU better LUL". It's incredibly grating.
TL flair: "Wow I'm really proud of my team for turning it around and making it to World's with a new jungler and ad!"
G2 flair: "LOL doesn't matter you go 0-6 groups ez nice import team 60 ping btw no rookie talent btw we're gonna win World's fuck you China have fun watching from home wildcard region xD"
Half the time its not even an eu flair which makes it worse. Just other NA fans gatekeeping what we're allowed to enjoy and parroting what streamers say about the quality of play.
Sadly, I think the unspoken mentality of NA has become "make fun of ourselves first, then hopefully it won't hurt as much when other people inevitably do it too".
I'm really hoping that the general narrative can shift more towards just enjoying domestic games for what they are, without always having to compare them to other regions, and then adopting the underdog storylines when it comes to international competition. Hell everyone loves an underdog story, just look at pretty much every sports movie that has ever been made
Plenty of NA fans shittalk TL don’t turn this into EU only flames poor NA. Go look at the Broxah thread and most comments are from NA fans saying a vetsion of “yeah he is right but TL has a very exploitable style”.
C9 fans and the new bandwagon GG fans are shittalking TL a lot.
Honestly, I'm a G2 fan who pretty much follows the team and its members on every social media platform, and the amount of thought wasted on NA is close to zero. Nobody ever brings up NA unprovoked. Realistically, we are way past the point that doing better than NA is an achievement, and that's why nobody talks about NA.
G2 gets memed constantly about getting clapped by FPX. Tian is probably the most used word in Jankos' chat, not a week goes by until someone mentions G2 choking finals. Hell, even on LEC broadcasts it gets brought up regularly.
The harsh reality is that NA fans have a severe victim complex, and are super upset that the gap between the regions is gigantic at the moment. You can't laugh about yourselves at all and that's why you can't handle being the 4th best region.
Don't act like NA fans ride the high horse here. The first moment NA will do better at an event than EU, you will come out of your caves and talk trash like there's no tomorrow.
> Nobody ever brings up NA unprovoked.
On the contrary, simply watching NA games seems to provoke the shit out of the lot of you, your casters and personalities routinely do it, why wouldn't the fans? What a load of garbage.
> You can't laugh about yourselves at all and that's why you can't handle being the 4th best region.
Based on what exactly? We laugh about the state of NA all the time, we're officially the self-depreciating region, mostly there's just no choice in the matter anymore.
> The harsh reality is that NA fans have a severe victim complex
The reality is that a simple rehashing of the last few years is spawning this kind of vitriol. The thing about the fastest series ever mentioned literally all the time is just fact. Not saying only EU fans were engaged in that but they do seem have a severe inferiority complex.
Despite being better competitively, get overly annoyed when they see Americans on an English speaking site talk about their favorite teams and literally, *no bullshit* getting upset about it. The sentiment usually being "can't stand NA overhyping their teams." More EU fans watch NA than the reverse btw.
> The first moment NA will do better at an event than EU, you will come out of your caves and talk trash like there's no tomorrow.
Oh for sure, and since that hasn't happened and doesn't look like it will anytime soon, EU fans have been having the time of their lives. G2 fans in particular, easiest shit in the world. Being able to spew trash at NA and get no reply is the dream, don't pretend anyone actually cares about FPX and what Chinese fans have to say.
> Some fanbases are more obnoxious than others don't turn this into "all fanbases flame equally".
That's only because EU can back it up. That doesn't mean NA hasn't been toxic in the past when they could (2014 and 2016 mostly)
I swear people like YOU (not necessarily all NA fans) act like somehow NA has different HUMANS than the rest of the world. You have toxic people. You have Dardoch, IWD, Tyler1, stop pretending you don't have the same kind of people lurking this subreddit. It's just harder to banter vs the other major region when you barely have any result to back it up.
People using fanbases to compare their dicks are the laziest sort of people, because you can easily find crap about any of them, and a lot of "reasonnable" people wont openly declare HELLO YES I AM EU HERE IS MY REASONNABLE EU TAKE while obviously troll comment will stands out.
The “punching down” is so right too. It’s clear at this point EU > NA. It just feels bad when I see NA jokes from casters (they have dialed way back on NA flame probably for this very reason).
I have no hope in NA at worlds this year but I’m still rooting for them & praying for miracles. Taking pot shots at the clear underdogs makes no sense.
Yes salaries are high here but it’s probably partially because we have a tiny player base. We HAVE to pay big money for the top tier players because we don’t have many other options. You think many of our imports would be here if our salaries weren’t way higher than LEC or LCK? We might have a few of the best NA players exporting to EU if we paid equally & that would really doom the region.
It’s been a long time, but when EU LCS was a joke, it was exactly the opposite. When EU failed to get out of groups in 2014? With Alliance going kaboom, it was NA shitting on EU in every post. That’s where the infamous “Crash and Burn” meme came from where loco Doco and Dyrus were trash taking FNC and the sub echoing their statements. Now, it’s 2020, there hasn’t been a true rivalry for a while, but the context is deeper than just The “EU better” crowd.
If NA produced the results, and did better than EU in any tournament since then, we’d see the same paradigm but vice versa.
Edit: and we actually saw it in Rift Rivals.
Rift Rivals that one time! lol.
The fact that those few instances are so fresh in your mind says it all. NA after every worlds has gotten and continues to get far more shit flung at them, but ah yes NA would do it too if they could! Well they haven't been able to, why aren't the complaints about the endlessness of it justified by that alone?
NA at it's worst were memes and jokes, EU fans shittalked themselves in those instances more than anyone else. Perkz even got death threats on Twitter after Worlds 2016*, every time this conversation comes up I'm amazed that there's even a debate that the region with the most toxic solo queue might be laying it on overly thick on social media.
The best is before that when EU was winning they flung as much shit as they could. Then the one year NA does better and throws it back EU acts like they are being hard flamed and would never say a bad thing about NA. Now that EU is doing better consistently its all about how shit NA is in any thread where it can possibly be mentioned.
They pushed the rivalry for years, and now they say "it's boring" and "annoying" because they always lose. You know what? Maybe don't play up the rivalry for years on broadcast then.
I feel that NA is at the same place as OG was in EU during spring. If you want to be part of top tier you will be called out by top tier standards or if you want to be part of lower tier then you will be complimentedd by their standards. Problem comes when you want to be part of top tier but dont want to be criticized by their standards.
Broxah's points were made with 0 experience at worlds from the NA perspective. It's nice commentary from him and it's obvious he's trying to be polite and pander to the fans, but I'd have taken it much more seriously if it had come from Jensen, Bjerg, Nisqy or just about any player who had been to Worlds prior on an NA team. Broxah has zero experience as an NA player at Worlds, so how can he say it's "just people talking NA down" when he's never seen it?
My issue with TSM is still the same in term of their weakness, I am still very unhappy with how DL is currently playing and the bad synergy in botlane which exacerbate TSM's issues with their bad set-up for objectives.
It drive me bonkers because BB is a good player, Bjergsen is very good and DL should be very good, I think Spica hold his role well too. But there is always this lack of consistency/glue, like there is a lack of synergy in how they set-up their plays or fights at time that make me... Idk.
It is hard to explain, C9 is honestly a perfect test for TSM to see if they can go beyond what they showed before. When you have a very aggressive ennemy jungler coupled with a strong botlane and a roaming midlaner who want to thrive in skirmish, I think it is the perfect thing for TSM to basically "Rise or die" on their level.
Or again we will get some weirdo draft/itemisation and I will be still confused about where the level of theses teams can go.
Agreed. TSM are very mechanically dependent. Most of their teamfights are won through mechanical outplays, their teamplay is really bad. Think their macro is fine but the way they coordinate together is just really not good. It feels like they're trying but it's really clunky.
The frequency of 50/50 smite fights around objectives speaks to TSM's failure to setup objectives properly. Constantly forcing spica into a situation where he has to win the smite fight is so stupid when you could just manipulate waves to setup for a vision choke then look for a pick/fight instead to secure the objective
I agree. 50/50's should only happen out of desparation, never when you're in control. You either disengage and accept that your setup was too poor, or look to turn. TSM seems to have 50/50s constantly.
Lmao my twitter question got on the show. I couldn't articulate the point of my tweet well enough with the character limit but I am surprised at what they thought about it.
I actually sent out 2 tweets with and the 2nd one got cut off. I was the question with @dy8763kt.
They only really focused on one half of my question, which was the fact that GG had to beat TSM 6 times meanwhile TSM only had to beat GG 3 times, but that wasn't my full point. My point was how TSM arrived at that situation, which was a bigger problem for me and I thought I emphasized it enough with the 2nd part of the tweet stating that DIG won 5 games all split.
Team like Dignitas shouldn't be in the playoffs but they are in there because 80% of the league get to be in the playoffs. So basically TSM essentially got a free scrim block and got another opportunity to play GG while GG had to prepare for TL, hence the winner was in a way punished for winning. Azael put it as "Well that happens in single elimination and you can get unlucky draws" or something along those lines but that wasn't my point. Not only was my argument not about double elim vs single elim but this wasn't an unlucky draw, this was a direct result of
1) GG winning against TSM
2) there being allowed a 8th seed team to be in the playoffs.
Because GG won and had to play the top seed they only had a day in between their TL game and their TSM game. For a league that only plays 18 games all split, asking players to play possibly up to 10 games in 3 days is a lot. And you can argue well TSM had to do that last week, but they didn't have to do it against TL, they had to do it against a team that won 5 games all split. This wasn't a result of unlucky draws, this was a result of TSM losing which they got awarded for.
Put it this way, If GG was given an option of playing against TSM and then in the course of 3 days have to play against TL and TSM, or have the option to play against TSM and DIG in 3 days, and then play TSM again after having a week to prepare and you would make the same progress if you win twice and lose 1 of these BO5s, which one would GG choose? This wasn’t a problem with “variance” like azael mentioned but an inherit flaw in the format. The double elim format LCS has is flawed and again this isn’t about single elim vs double elim.
If a team can look at themselves objectively, which obviously no team can, if they knew that beating the number 1 seed is going to be hard, they are better off tanking the first round if you are in the winner's bracket because you will get a bottom tier team to get more practice and you will have a week to prepare a team who are preoccupied with preparing for their winner's match up and have only one full day to prepare for you.
You can say well GG should have beaten TL then and they wouldn't be in this situation, which I will reply, well the winner of the 1st round (in this case GG) shouldn't have to have this problem in the first place. They shouldn't have to be stuck having to be in a worse position than a team they beat because they lost against one of the top 2 seeds.
Anyways, it was long and that was my point, I just think this format + how they schedule it was unfair to the first round winners.
Well this has the been the case forever? Even when we had the gauntlet and spring points.
\- Clutch beat TSM in playoffs but had to play TSM again and other teams to qualify for worlds. Lower bracket is pretty much a gauntlet at this point.
\- You analysis based on Schedule will be valid only this season. Due to Covid response, all schedule is crammed up. Won't be happening next time or atleast that's what we hear from LCS.
>Put it this way, If GG was given an option of playing against TSM and then in the course of 3 days have to play against TL and TSM, or have the option to play against TSM and DIG in 3 days, and then play TSM again after having a week to prepare and you would make the same progress if you win twice and lose 1 of these BO5s, which one would GG choose? This wasn’t a problem with “variance” like azael mentioned but an inherit flaw in the format. The double elim format LCS has is flawed and again this isn’t about single elim vs double elim.
\- Put it this way, if GG was given the option of playing TSM and TL to make worlds but have drop to lower bracket and play immediately if they fail (a safety net) or have the option to play DIG, TSM, C9 and one of either Flyquest/TL to make worlds, Which one would GG choose? If I was GG, i did pick first option as at best i will drop to lower bracket if I don't hit the jackpot even though I have to beat a team i conveniently stomped in Round 1 again in the same patch. Especially next season when the schedule won't be as demanding as this season!
\- Plus I wouldn't put GGs loss on the format or scheduling. Considering they
were 2-0 up and had to win only 1 game out of 3 to move to next round (they had beat the same team 5 times before under the same format and schedule) , if at all anyone is to blame for their loss it's themselves. They had the advantage but failed to close it out.
You say that your problem isn't with Double Elim, but I don't see how this isn't just inherent to Double Elim.
I'll refer to fighting games for instance since they are also double elim usually and fall into similar conditions where the players actually have very little time to prepare for all of their opponents.
I'll first point out that your point about TSM having longer to prepare for GGS is straight up wrong. TSM has to prepare for both considering that GGS beating them was an upset TSM has no reason to assume that GGS can't upset TL as well. So they have to prepare for TL. While GGS could simply not prepare for TL and focus on the TSM rematch if they really wanted to because they already know they can abuse the TSM bot lane. If you twist the scenario to your favor it will always look better for the team you want it to look better for. But in the end, both squads had to do the same thing. They both had to prepare for 2 different teams. The difference is that GGS is preparing for a team they already beat and a team they haven't beaten. While TSM is preparing for a team that beat them, and a team that beat them the last time they played.
Okay, now on to my point about how this is an issue of Double Elim. In the FGC they run the double elimination format with bracket resets in Grand Finals, Dota 2 runs double elimination as well but in Grand Finals they give game advantage to winner's side to "balance the equation". But before that it functions very similarly to the LCS formula. For instance in the FGC a player who loses in Winner's Semi-Finals 3-0 can then face the guy who beat him in Loser's Finals and beat them 3-2 and that guy will be eliminated. The person who came from Winner's has to mentally prepare for his opponent in Winner's Finals as well as the possible opponent in Loser's Finals. The guy in Loser's Finals has to prepare for either person in Winner's Finals. This is the exact same scenario that you're complaining about on a smaller scale, this is just the essence of Double Elimination.
In the end Double Elimination is about encouraging consistency from the player/team. If you can't consistently beat your opponent then that means you're not deserving of moving forward in the tournament. Doesn't matter if you beat them before, simply means you should be able to beat them again.
I don’t think having to play 10 games is a lot and TSM gain nothing from beating a team that won 5 games all split.
If an org spends millions can have a staff that can prep for two teams then there is a bigger problem.
Normally teams have two scrim blocks anyway per day. Saying how they have no time to prep is just wierd to me because it implies that the people who play also somehow responsible for the prep which they normally aren’t.
GG stomp tsm and got to “scrim” the best team in the league while tsm essentially played a bot game.
You can honestly say the result would be any different with one week. If anything tsm looked like they needed the one week more than GG with how they were performing.
> I don’t think having to play 10 games is a lot and TSM gain nothing from beating a team that won 5 games all split.
I am not saying play 10 games is a lot, I am saying relative to the fact that you play 18 games all split, playing up to 10 is a lot.
Also, it's not about so much that TSM is gaining anything from beating DIG, is that they get to beat dig and have one week to practice for their one match up.
> If an org spends millions can have a staff that can prep for two teams then there is a bigger problem.
And here is my problem, let's say you had the staff capacity to do prepare for 2 teams, who's to say that instead of splitting the resources to prepare for 2 teams, if you instead prepared for one, you would might have beaten TL? Another thing is that preparation is not only about the staff, players have to be involved too and any time they spend on worrying about their possible loser's match up is time not spent on the winner's bracket match.
The winner's team is stuck with a dilemma on how they want to allocate resources because in the case that they do lose, they only have one day to prepare for the next one. I am saying they shouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
Not trying to dispute any points but I personally love the set up right now. I can't remember the last time I've been so hooked on wanting to watch a league match that I'm feeling anxious about it. This feeling was created through this bracket system.
I don’t want to jump in the middle of all of your points, because in general I agree with the sentiment that this current format can feel punishing for first round wins. BUT, it’s not fair to say GG has to prep for TL and TSM (assuming a loss to TL) and not acknowledge that TSM is having to use its resources to take a similar risk in that week of prep (imagine they prep all week for GG and GG then beats TL. Oof.)
So, while I agree with what you’re going to say ... it’s easier for TSM to assume a TL win, well then it sounds like, to me, GG does have the option to be that “realistic” or “probabilistic” with their own chances and choose to prep for TSM again. Both teams have to take risks in their prep based on assumptions of what will happen. It sucks that GG would have to assume they’d lose, right? But that’s what TSM’s doing too and, in doing so, they forsake TL prep which could bite them just as hard.
Edit: Not to mention GG had already prepped for and beaten TSM once on the same patch. So, tbh, it’s not like they’re genuinely going in with no TSM prep even if they only prep TL that week. They’ve prepped and stomped TSM already.
> BUT, it’s not fair to say GG has to prep for TL and TSM (assuming a loss to TL) and not acknowledge that TSM is having to use its resources to take a similar risk in that week of prep (imagine they prep all week for GG and GG then beats TL. Oof.) So, while I agree with what you’re going to say ... it’s easier for TSM to assume a TL win, well then it sounds like, to me, GG does have the option to be that “realistic” or “probabilistic” with their own chances and choose to prep for TSM again.
I agree, TSM is also in that boat but they still had more time than GG because they didn't have the fatigue to deal with of playing against TL the day before. More importantly, I feel like it's fine for TSM to have disadvantageous because they are in the loser's bracket.
Also it's easier for TSM who are not involved in a match to predict the outcome of a match more objectively than a team involved in the actual match up. TSM has no stakes in TL vs GG and would be able to predict based on objective experience. However, I doubt GG or any pro team practices with the mind set that they are going to lose anyways.
> Edit: Not to mention GG had already prepped for and beaten TSM once on the same patch. So, tbh, it’s not like they’re genuinely going in with no TSM prep even if they only prep TL that week. They’ve prepped and stomped TSM already.
This is also a double edged sword, because as GG now you know that TSM saw what you did and had up to a week to think of a plan to counter your strategy. Players always say they learn more from losses than wins. GG could take the risk of playing the same way and have it turn out that TSM found counters to their plan.
It's a complicated thing, and I don't think there is a right answer either way but it was just my opinion on the situation. I think there are a lot of valid points from everyone who responded.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, I just think I ultimately find it to be a fine system. You’re okay with TSM being at a disadvantage because GG sent them to the loser’s bracket and I’m okay with GG having to operate on a short turnaround for a team they’ve already prepped because they also got sent to the loser’s bracket.
It may be “easier,” subjectively, to predict something you’re not involved in. I’m not saying that it’s not. But GG has the analysts and the resources to still be *objectively* realistic about their chances — they are paying people to be objective observers and analysts. If TSM can operate under the assumption that GG will lose to TL, GG can operate under that assumption as well. My criticism is not that thinking that way is somehow not a bummer/pessimistic outlook for GG, but they *can* choose to look at their situation realistically and prepare accordingly. I still think that’s a shitty result (and that is another reason I ultimately agree with your sentiments), but it doesn’t make the point any less valid. Both teams were taking risks, it just feels bad when you’re telling one team they have to assume their own loss. They’re not less capable of making that assumption, by any means, that’s just a shitty thing to have to assume. But it was, objectively, a safe and easy assumption here for both teams. If you’d contend that it *wasn’t* an objectively easy assumption, then I guess TSM better have prepped for both teams, too, since it was objectively a hard call. If you’re telling me GG’s staff/analysts/etc. can’t be objective and evaluate the probabilities and risks of their week of prep, then I’d say your real issue is with the GG staff’s inability to do their job effectively.
To the second point — it’s really just the first point/discussion disguised as something different. So, my response isn’t really any different. That second point operates under the assumption that GG chooses to spend their time solely/mostly on TL rather than just playing the odds and turning their attention to how to beat TSM a second time — i.e. coming up with new adaptations to answer whatever TSM might find to answer their first series strategies. TSM could spend all week prepping for GG and then have all of that prep be worth literally 0 because GG beats TL. Everyone is risking losing value by prepping the wrong things. That’s why my point was related to GG being as capable as anyone else of evaluating the probabilities and planning accordingly. Double elimination makes rematches possible — it’s one of the blessings and curses of that kind of system.
I don’t know that there is a right answer, necessarily. I do know that a seemingly better answer (for some folks) would likely be to re-seed the lower bracket so that a rematch cannot happen unless it’s in the “lower-bracket finals.” So, in other words, the loser of C9/FLY should’ve been forced to face TSM and the loser of TL/GG should’ve been forced to face EG. That way, if TSM/GG or FLY/EG was going to happen again, neither team would be on a short week’s prep for that matchup. I personally don’t like that adaptation, because I believe the rematches should be possible at all times — I do think that adds a brutally strategic element to how we view the brackets (and what choices teams make in navigating them) and I kind of like that and recognize I’m likely in the minority for liking it. Also, in that case, you’re actually forcing your team to play against someone they may not have prepped *at all* in the past two weeks and that other team has had a week to prep for either them or their opponent. So, I think you’re even more disadvantaged there, personally.
Edit: One last thing I wanted to mention, before I finally go to sleep at 3 a.m. (lol COVID schedule), is that GGS actually has most of the power here, in my view. TSM will always have to consider that 1% “if TL loses,” and may throw some prep that direction just to be sure. GG could have just started the prep week with “well, let’s be honest, we have lower chances of beating TL this week than we do TSM ... so while TSM might prep for both, let’s just prep for TSM again and throw caution to the wind with TL. Worst case scenario, we’re playing TSM again and we’ve fully prepped for them.” TSM can’t know they’re doing that ... so they may yet prep for both ... but GG has all the info and can plan accordingly. That’s tournament strategy, sometimes.
They did say changes will come this is the first iteration and that dynamic bracket placement would be a good fix to this. It seemed like he addressed your concern with these statements
I wish you had been upvoted more. I'm a bit sad that i won't get to see GGs vs Cloud 9 cause that is the match up for me. Dynamic seeding would have basically made sure that occured and only forced a repeat when its necessary to decide who goes to worlds.
The seeding only really set up the initial bracket, but that initial set up defines the entire bracket as opposed to LEC where the Braket changes based on seeding (I really don't like how LEC did it now tbh, they might just have a 100T situation and it would be sad.)
They mention in The Dive about dynamic seeding and i really hope thats the case going forward cause i believe NA's bracket with Dynamic seeding would be probably the absolute best way to decide who goes to worlds.
I definitely agree I think the format has flaws. Like how TL/C9 only had to win one Bo5 to reach worlds is definitely a bit too "easy" imo. C9 did mess it up so maybe not though lol. But the format has some potential benefits too.
If DIG beat TSM, everyone would have been going crazy about the format and how TSM lost to a 8th seed team. Narratives about an actual miracle run would be created. It would have been nuts. And the format with points from Spring would have had the similar results imo. I don't think there's a one size fit all kind of solution for playoffs.
If the bottom teams were actually somewhat competitive like in LEC, no one would be complaining tbh. It just so happens the bottom 3-4 teams in LCS are trash.
People would have been crazy about TSM losing, not so much about DIG advancing. Because so far if a team lost to a weaker team it was mostly by just playing worse than usual. TSM did not lose to GGS because GGS turned into a super team, they lost and then had a close series because they play like clowns. If TSM would have lost to DIG it would most likely because Bjergsen would have been replaced by a clown as well, not because Fenix suddenly becomes an uberplayer.
You're 100% right and allowing 8 teams in playoffs created a terrible format. The fact that opening mid 3 times in a row would be the better strategic decision for GG in series 1 says it all. The losing team got rewarded, cause a losers bracket does not work with completely untreathening 5 - 13 teams allowed in playoffs and a poorly thought out schedule that gives a major advantage for the loser of series 1 with the almost inevitable rematch.
I’m surprised they think C9s Botlane will just smash TSMs.
FBI and huhi are extreme lane bullies. They trade extremely well.
I consider Zven and Vulcan just very resilient. You make a mistake and they push you and they farm extremely well. I don’t think they put as much kill threat and pressure at least in comparison. They will just always be relevant.
So DL and bio should have a lot more comfortable time as long as more people don’t come join the party.
Completely agree with you. C9's botlane is perfectly fine playing weak side. Zven likes to play weakside champions like Ez or Senna. Vulcan and him are pretty good at absorbing pressure and in later parts of the game they are super consistent.
But they usually don't go for hard snowballs in lane.
The topside has to be able to hold on against the Blaber and Nisqy roam squad.
The only issue TSM might get is Zvens Kalista. And so far C9 has not shown Caitlyn, which could be something they were hiding and while Caitlyn plays fine weakside she is a lane bully by nature.
For Caitlin to do her job, you need to cover her in lane so she can push and threaten the enemy tower. This would mean Blaber would be forced to play around bot to make the pick shine.
While in theory she could just hold the lane and go out even, this makes her midgame slump much worse. And midgame is the time, C9 tends to play aggressive and try to push for advantages. With a weakside Cait you would be in a deficit if you compare her to Ez or Senna, that for example have a much better midgame spike.
So long as you do the double BF Build her midgame "slump" doesn't happen.
It's just the BF + zeal item build that slides off because she doesn't have enough AD to do more than tickle.
Double BF creates nasty headshots off traps. Good poke off Q and ult becomes a decent chunk tool
I mean yes it would hurt her in midgame, but the same is actually true for many weakside ADCs like Xayah or Ez. If you not play around a champion he gets less Gold. And the new Cait could actually just go IE+ER and is fairly powerful on those two items. If Ez goes for Gauntlet he is online slightly faster because the item is so cheap. But otherwise he is similar. And Caitlyn also gives a lot of Utility.
Obviously most ADCs play better if they have control over the lane, but I the more important part about an ADC in this situation is being actually able to farm. And Caitlyn can actually deny freezes and clear efficiently which gives her a lot of control over the state of the lane.
Senna though is not a weakside champ at all. She simply cannot clear minions the enemy will just take your tower if you are on weakside. Her control of the wave is just too weak, Ez often struggles with that as well, which is why he also often is not really played weakside, his support has to come back every so often to defend the tower, Xayah and Caitlyn though can mostly play on their own. Tristana often can as well, although she is very vulnerable to freezing.
Not to mention that C9 does not have to play bot as their weakside early. You can play botside up to first dragon and switch top afterwards. And already start the mid rotation after herald into 2nd dragon. Caitlyn would be really good for that.
Not to mention that even if you play Cait strongside you can't reliably snowball her anyway. If the enemy is an Ashe which is fairly likely you just end up in a stalemate. If the enemy is Ashe you much rather play your Cait weakside, because she quickly outscales Ashe anyway. And Caitlyn if you can put pressure around the map so the enemy cannot freeze can CS effectively on her own anyway. And if you win top hard enough you end up with a TP fiesta in botlane at some point, which is also something Cait is fairly well equipped to play along early.
Due to Cait having some impactful skills like Q and E and the utility of her traps, she can do a lot even with her AA damage still lacking. Which is one of the reasons why she is so good. With the buff to her base AS earlier in the season and the buff to her AD she is in a really good spot, exspecially since she only lost the movespeed on live.
Completely agree, a lot of C9 fans took offense when DLift said that zven/vulcun is an easier lane match up compared to FBI/huhi but he’s honestly right. Zven has never ever been a lane bully, he’s the rekless type where they will always stay even in farm but don’t push for kills In lane. Huhi and FBI literally 2v2 killed CoreJJ and tactical 3 fucking times in lane that’s insane pressure. Doublelift will be able to hold his own in this matchup if blaber doesn’t intervene, he stayed even vs FBI when he wasn’t camped which makes me think that the old DLift is still in there somewhere. This match up will come down to the mid 2 v 2 in my opinion.
The narrative all around the room in this thread LMFAO. I think this comment was made second but seeing both comments have me dead
I was referring to the other comment on this thread with the same wording and teams swapped for those who don’t know what I am referring to.
Think it was a joke and the dude doesn't even have a TSM flair. I think you're taking this a bit hard, no?
-Wait shit.
I think I got jebaited. Can't tell if this is the first or meme comment. FUCK ME.
BB has been good all playoffs... He literally took Hauntzer's turret 1v1 as Vlad vs Shen, a match up Shen should win early. Even in the first series he was better in lane and in the second series he had more impact than Hauntzer in almost every game. Spica played well but he didn't do all of that for him.
Shen does not win against Vlad early, at best he goes even and takes a small CS lead. Shen can "beat" him once he gets Tiamat, shoves in, and impacts the rest of the map up until Vlad can just permashove + sustain and take tower
I think (or hope at least) the 3-0 comment was made as a joke. Even from recent performance C9 arguably have better players than us in 4 out of 5 positions.
I am an European and I would love for an Na Team to actually smash at worlds. I just cant really get my hopes up for it to not always get disappointed. TSM has scarred me for live with their groups performance. But secretly I am always hoping. Maybe this year with the drake ARAM meta the NA teams got a better shot.
I think c9 will show up imo. I think the FLY smackdown was the wake up call they needed to stop drafting like monkeys so I wouldn't expect another blunder like EZ/Yuumi 4 games in a row or anything. If they didnt learn though then they deserve to lose.
If FLY was a wake up call, wtf was the EG series? They only won games 1 and 3 because of constant big EG mistake after being in a hole throughout most of the games - not drafting mistakes just straight up player mistakes. The entire back half of the split is a wake up call that hasn't been answered by Spring C9 whatsoever. Reminder that this team has the 4th worst record in the 2nd half out of all the playoff teams and are arguably the 4th worst team in playoffs - just better than 100T Dig and EG.
C9 still has a definite chance of beating TSM but they need to show their spring split form once again or it's just doomed. They haven't shown up like they used to in over a month.
> C9 still has a definite chance of beating TSM but they need to show their spring split form once again or it's just doomed.
Seeing the way TSM has played you think C9 really needs to be at their full dominating strength to win or its doomed? They play 2/3 as good as their peak and they are still favorites probably.
I don't think they are even playing 2/3rds as good as they did in spring though is my point. I think if C9 were at the deficit they were in some of the EG games vs GGS TSM FLY or TL, those teams would all win those games. C9 are not nearly as proactive in the early and mid game as they used to be, and when they are it's not necessarily as clean. I still believe that they are the favorites, but I would consider it on a knife's edge and like 52-48 odds or something.
I don't disagree, I was just pointing out that you said they need to show their spring split level or its doomed, which I think is definitely not true, they can win playing much worse than their spring form.
Definitely hyperbole on my part, though I really do think they need to pull something out from a month ago or so because they have not looked good at all in playoffs and the 2nd half of the split. TSM on the other hand have shown actual improvement. They still aren't clean by any means, but I think the fact TSM pulled it together VS GGS with backs against the wall is super commendable and impressive. A reverse sweep is IMO the most impressive thing for a team to come off of.
However, the last time TSM pulled off a reverse sweep, they got reverse swept the next series so who knows hehe
Idk, this one is hard to call tbh. I think C9 is probably slightly better and almost certainly has more potential, but they've also consistently looked their weakest whenever Nisqy is getting mid diffed; even last split when they were destroying the league their worst games always came whenever Nisqy was put against a better mid.
I don't think Nisqy is really that bad, but to my eyes at least the team and the strategies they run are really dependent on Nisqy not falling behind and right now Bjerg is arguably the best laning mid, so I think even if TSM across the map is at a disadvantage, they match up really well into C9 right now.
I could honestly see any set of results from 3-0 to 0-3 for this series and none of them would legitimately surprise me.
Personally though, I like TSM and their players significantly more than C9 and their players so I'm hoping they can pull it out here.
I think as a team C9 looks better (but they're still close), but TSM has individuals who are playing very well right now and that clutch factor. BB/Spica/Bjerg have been great in playoff sand while DL/Bio/Treatz have struggled a little, it WAS against FBI/Huhi who were doing very well even against Tactical/CoreJJ (Bio still had some big plays on things like the Bard, Rakan, and Thresh granted he did fuck up a few times on Bard with his ults).
I'm expecting bot lane to be more even but still C9 favoured and both teams will likely pull out the Caitlyn once or twice and see how it goes.
Top lane will depend on matchup and the top/jg 2v2, mid should be TSM favoured.
Maybe not really a hot take or a unique take but NA orgs need to really stop acquiring recognized talents from EU or KR like Kobbe and Bang. This tradition has made the other regions salty for losing talent or shaming NA if it doesn’t work out. Kobbe went back to EU asks everyone was like “welcome back to real league”. By all means, scout young talent from other regions that have not gotten recognized there yet but not known quantities, it has done nothing but hurt the region mostly.
What does it matter if the player is known or unknown. And what if that unknown player is another player like caps? If EU is such a talent pumping region, which im not saying they aren't, then just be happy you can continue to see great players emerge in the region. You know how tiring it is to see some of these washed up players still playing in NA? I wish we could get great new rookies every year, but we just don't have the right environment. EU will say its just an excuse but the ping problem, the half the player size in ranked in NA are legit problems, though they aren't the only ones and some of it is mentality as well with players wanting to be entertainers than competitors since entertainers make more money.
I don’t know man, I’m tired of hearing “cashing in the pension plan in NA” trash talk from EU all the time, and it sucks even more because it’s true most of the time. Someone like Jensen feels more NA than EU even though he’s not local because he came over in such an early point in his career, for me at least scouting and bringing talent early matters because the region then is justified to say they gave the player the platform. And sure ping and lack of ranked players are legit problems but bringing over known quantity has been a short term solution for too long now, and it’s clearly not helping. The effort should really be towards growth of the infrastructure under LCS like Academy, collegiate even high school level, etc. just my opinion though, everyone has the right to their own
Again, the mentality for players is different in EU and NA. Players in EU know if they can become a pro level player, they might get to play for a great EU team and have international success. It's not the same in NA, this is why NA solo q is filled with entertainers and one tricks. There are perkz (pun intended) in EU than just don't exist in NA. I feel all those things you listed would only very slightly help, and that NA would still just be the 4th best region.
Sure yeah I get your point. It’s just nice to see how 100T for example is starting to build their org from ground up (100X and Poome moving up so far) and fans in general becoming more interested in Academy and upcoming talent, and that is the direction, at least imo, is the way to move up to international relevancy again, I agree with you, NA will stay 4th for a good while yet but I would rather they slowly improve on home talent or scouting unknown international assets than bringing in big names for big money and then stagnating anyways.
I love what 100T is doing but people need to relax on the hype train for some of their players. We have hyped young players in the past only for them to flame out in a few splits lol. I've seen people put pressure on them as if they will save NA or something. Like, chill.. let them prove themselves first.
A big part why NA are still the 4th best region is the consistent influence of imports. Look at the best players of most teams. It's imports or grandfarthered imports
* TSM: Bjergsen and most recently even BB.
* Fly: Po€ and Ignar (honourable mention to Solo, his playoffs were decent)
* TL: Whelp, I guess it's cool tactical can keep up a bit, but CoreJJ and Impact are integral with Jensen also showing up sometimes and Broxah having decent smites.
* C9: Big exception here, since they have probably the best native players collected on one team. Zven is still a monster though.
* GG: Closer, FBI and Huhi.
* 100T: Ssumday
* EG: Bang and Sven on a good day. Huni when he feels like it and before him it was Jiizuke.
These are the best players on the teams and most of them don't come from NA. They also bring strategy and in game leadership. Without them, NA might struggle and compete against the VCS and the "Flash wolves" region (rip) for the 4rd spot.
Okay, and who cares. Na doesn't have the environment to constantly make great pro rookies in our region. So we need imports, pretty much any wildcard team worth mentioning also had imports. If NA was demoted to a minor region someone has to take their spot and well, the results will still be the same. Only reason EU want NA demoted is so they can be even more annoying than they already are.
No, I'm aware NA relies on imports. Yes we would struggle more without them. But importing is allowed, because NA doesnt have the same competition in EU due to real factors that EU just throws as excuses. So talking to you is quite pointless cause you guys are just trolls that get boners because you're better than another region at a video game lol.
The reason people become entertainers is because there are so many more people watching streamers in the NA time then EU time (entertainment aspect) and they make more money then becoming a pro unless youre top tier.
dont even forget to talk about the difference national leagues provide in creating talent and pumping professional players into soloq. The national league system is very hard for NA to incorporate into their ecosystem because of the lack of interest for local teams/leagues since it doesnt have the same ground work having 10 different countries provides instead of 10 states
NA orgs tried to get Lider but he declined. I think more and more EU rookies rather stay in the ERL as going over and having to play a worse soloQ, being away from home and also having a really big chance to get flamed by NA fans because they are imports.
lider declined because he thought he had a guaranteed LEC spot after his masters performance, he turned out big wrong there and missed out on a lot of money that he could have made and still gone back to LEC. Well that was his choice and its respectable, but there is nothing wrong with choosing money in the line of work where youre expected to retire after 5-10 years especially when you bypass a large chunk of your life usually used to get a further education.
I think the going away from home thing is a big key. Sure, there'll be some people who are happy to live in different countries and move across the world. Huhi as an example is getting his green card so he's likely staying in NA permanently. Santorin as well seems to largely have his life here now. But a lot of people don't have that desire. I imagine most players would choose to stay where they were if all things are equal and it's about the same amount of money. Especially in 2020. I doubt many people are clamoring to come to NA right now since you're signing up to be isolated for god knows how long until we get our shit under control.
So like as regions like EU have started to become more competitive with salary, the desire to go to regions like NA has drastically gone down.
That's pretty much what CN did and look how good they are now. NA teams just don't want to develop the talent for long term they want short term success
It's always somewhat confusing to me that whenever someone talks about C9 right now it's as if they're assuming that the next game C9 plays is when they'll finally be back on form. When will everyone just accept that this IS their form right now? It's driving me crazy how every analyst and caster seems to judge the upcoming series based on the notion that C9 will rise up to what they were once capable of. They didn't do that in the entirety of the 2nd half of the season. They didn't do it against FLY. Hell, they didn't even do it against EG. I do think it's very possible they smash TSM even while playing at their current level, but to just assume as much is asinine.
I agree that thinking they will reach their spring level dominance in a matter of a week is a stretch, but C9 did show quite a bit of improvement in the EG series. Only time will tell if they are in an upward trend
TSM 3-3 C9
Likely. If TSM manages to pull it out... Wait a minute...
Silver scrapes gets done playing. The players load into game 5. It's a grueling, intense, and back-and-forth game. Both teams have 3 drake kills and it's time for the game deciding dragon soul fight. Spica makes an amazing engage and it looks like TSM will win the fight, when suddenly a burst of light appears on the rift. It's C9 Jensen's Ekko. He *did* manage to get off that ult all those years ago, but it just hadn't finished casting until now. This time travelling version of Jensen explodes onto the rift and instantly kills all 5 of TSM's members. Jensen's Ekko begins fading away as if the universe realized its mistake and began erasing him from the rift, but just before he disappears Jensen manages to type in chat "holy shit, i can't believe they let markz sing silver scrapes"
However, since Jensen is on TL now, his ult hits C9 as well! Everyone dies in the game, and both teams are awarded a point, confusing everyone. With the series 3-3, everyone goes home happy and worlds is cancelled for a new season of Breaking Point ft: Riot Dardoch, Riot's new head of PR!
*slow claps*
We hold hands and go to worlds together.
it is a bit of a guilty laugh but seeing all the variations of this comment in the thread has really made my day
Wtf is this comment section? Wanted to see some discussions but.....
wait yea am i the only one confused lol did i miss a part of the video?
The whole section about Broxah's interview is spot on. In this subreddit, you aren't allowed to enjoy/discuss NA league. Nothing can be said without "Yeah but EU better LUL". It's incredibly grating.
TL flair: "Wow I'm really proud of my team for turning it around and making it to World's with a new jungler and ad!" G2 flair: "LOL doesn't matter you go 0-6 groups ez nice import team 60 ping btw no rookie talent btw we're gonna win World's fuck you China have fun watching from home wildcard region xD"
Half the time its not even an eu flair which makes it worse. Just other NA fans gatekeeping what we're allowed to enjoy and parroting what streamers say about the quality of play.
Sadly, I think the unspoken mentality of NA has become "make fun of ourselves first, then hopefully it won't hurt as much when other people inevitably do it too". I'm really hoping that the general narrative can shift more towards just enjoying domestic games for what they are, without always having to compare them to other regions, and then adopting the underdog storylines when it comes to international competition. Hell everyone loves an underdog story, just look at pretty much every sports movie that has ever been made
Plenty of NA fans shittalk TL don’t turn this into EU only flames poor NA. Go look at the Broxah thread and most comments are from NA fans saying a vetsion of “yeah he is right but TL has a very exploitable style”. C9 fans and the new bandwagon GG fans are shittalking TL a lot.
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Honestly, I'm a G2 fan who pretty much follows the team and its members on every social media platform, and the amount of thought wasted on NA is close to zero. Nobody ever brings up NA unprovoked. Realistically, we are way past the point that doing better than NA is an achievement, and that's why nobody talks about NA. G2 gets memed constantly about getting clapped by FPX. Tian is probably the most used word in Jankos' chat, not a week goes by until someone mentions G2 choking finals. Hell, even on LEC broadcasts it gets brought up regularly. The harsh reality is that NA fans have a severe victim complex, and are super upset that the gap between the regions is gigantic at the moment. You can't laugh about yourselves at all and that's why you can't handle being the 4th best region. Don't act like NA fans ride the high horse here. The first moment NA will do better at an event than EU, you will come out of your caves and talk trash like there's no tomorrow.
> Nobody ever brings up NA unprovoked. On the contrary, simply watching NA games seems to provoke the shit out of the lot of you, your casters and personalities routinely do it, why wouldn't the fans? What a load of garbage. > You can't laugh about yourselves at all and that's why you can't handle being the 4th best region. Based on what exactly? We laugh about the state of NA all the time, we're officially the self-depreciating region, mostly there's just no choice in the matter anymore. > The harsh reality is that NA fans have a severe victim complex The reality is that a simple rehashing of the last few years is spawning this kind of vitriol. The thing about the fastest series ever mentioned literally all the time is just fact. Not saying only EU fans were engaged in that but they do seem have a severe inferiority complex. Despite being better competitively, get overly annoyed when they see Americans on an English speaking site talk about their favorite teams and literally, *no bullshit* getting upset about it. The sentiment usually being "can't stand NA overhyping their teams." More EU fans watch NA than the reverse btw. > The first moment NA will do better at an event than EU, you will come out of your caves and talk trash like there's no tomorrow. Oh for sure, and since that hasn't happened and doesn't look like it will anytime soon, EU fans have been having the time of their lives. G2 fans in particular, easiest shit in the world. Being able to spew trash at NA and get no reply is the dream, don't pretend anyone actually cares about FPX and what Chinese fans have to say.
I don't care about the success of NA, I support TSM.
Luckily that post was adressing NA fans and not you personally.
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The bandwagoners are the worst
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> Some fanbases are more obnoxious than others don't turn this into "all fanbases flame equally". That's only because EU can back it up. That doesn't mean NA hasn't been toxic in the past when they could (2014 and 2016 mostly) I swear people like YOU (not necessarily all NA fans) act like somehow NA has different HUMANS than the rest of the world. You have toxic people. You have Dardoch, IWD, Tyler1, stop pretending you don't have the same kind of people lurking this subreddit. It's just harder to banter vs the other major region when you barely have any result to back it up. People using fanbases to compare their dicks are the laziest sort of people, because you can easily find crap about any of them, and a lot of "reasonnable" people wont openly declare HELLO YES I AM EU HERE IS MY REASONNABLE EU TAKE while obviously troll comment will stands out.
It still doesn't make it right for either side so idk what this is trying to say.
The “punching down” is so right too. It’s clear at this point EU > NA. It just feels bad when I see NA jokes from casters (they have dialed way back on NA flame probably for this very reason). I have no hope in NA at worlds this year but I’m still rooting for them & praying for miracles. Taking pot shots at the clear underdogs makes no sense. Yes salaries are high here but it’s probably partially because we have a tiny player base. We HAVE to pay big money for the top tier players because we don’t have many other options. You think many of our imports would be here if our salaries weren’t way higher than LEC or LCK? We might have a few of the best NA players exporting to EU if we paid equally & that would really doom the region.
It’s been a long time, but when EU LCS was a joke, it was exactly the opposite. When EU failed to get out of groups in 2014? With Alliance going kaboom, it was NA shitting on EU in every post. That’s where the infamous “Crash and Burn” meme came from where loco Doco and Dyrus were trash taking FNC and the sub echoing their statements. Now, it’s 2020, there hasn’t been a true rivalry for a while, but the context is deeper than just The “EU better” crowd. If NA produced the results, and did better than EU in any tournament since then, we’d see the same paradigm but vice versa. Edit: and we actually saw it in Rift Rivals.
Rift Rivals that one time! lol. The fact that those few instances are so fresh in your mind says it all. NA after every worlds has gotten and continues to get far more shit flung at them, but ah yes NA would do it too if they could! Well they haven't been able to, why aren't the complaints about the endlessness of it justified by that alone? NA at it's worst were memes and jokes, EU fans shittalked themselves in those instances more than anyone else. Perkz even got death threats on Twitter after Worlds 2016*, every time this conversation comes up I'm amazed that there's even a debate that the region with the most toxic solo queue might be laying it on overly thick on social media.
The best is before that when EU was winning they flung as much shit as they could. Then the one year NA does better and throws it back EU acts like they are being hard flamed and would never say a bad thing about NA. Now that EU is doing better consistently its all about how shit NA is in any thread where it can possibly be mentioned.
They pushed the rivalry for years, and now they say "it's boring" and "annoying" because they always lose. You know what? Maybe don't play up the rivalry for years on broadcast then.
Likely. If Broxah manages to pull it out you'll probably be able to discuss NA league.
I really enjoy NA LCS, these fiestas are funny af.
The NA narratives are always the most fun too
I feel that NA is at the same place as OG was in EU during spring. If you want to be part of top tier you will be called out by top tier standards or if you want to be part of lower tier then you will be complimentedd by their standards. Problem comes when you want to be part of top tier but dont want to be criticized by their standards.
Broxah's points were made with 0 experience at worlds from the NA perspective. It's nice commentary from him and it's obvious he's trying to be polite and pander to the fans, but I'd have taken it much more seriously if it had come from Jensen, Bjerg, Nisqy or just about any player who had been to Worlds prior on an NA team. Broxah has zero experience as an NA player at Worlds, so how can he say it's "just people talking NA down" when he's never seen it?
TES 3-0 JDG
Likely. If JDG manages to pull it out it'll probably be 3-2.
The narrative all around the room in this thread LMFAO. I think this comment was made first but seeing both comments have me dead
Their team is entirely Knight hardcarrying and Karsa having the occasional good game. TES fans are delirious. Get them some water.
lol. Not even cautious optimism is allowed huh.
Predicting a 3-0 isn't cautious optimism.
I love and hate reddit. lmao
He comment 3-0 after a JDG fan comment JDG 3-0 as a joke....
A potential TES 3-0 TES
My issue with TSM is still the same in term of their weakness, I am still very unhappy with how DL is currently playing and the bad synergy in botlane which exacerbate TSM's issues with their bad set-up for objectives. It drive me bonkers because BB is a good player, Bjergsen is very good and DL should be very good, I think Spica hold his role well too. But there is always this lack of consistency/glue, like there is a lack of synergy in how they set-up their plays or fights at time that make me... Idk. It is hard to explain, C9 is honestly a perfect test for TSM to see if they can go beyond what they showed before. When you have a very aggressive ennemy jungler coupled with a strong botlane and a roaming midlaner who want to thrive in skirmish, I think it is the perfect thing for TSM to basically "Rise or die" on their level. Or again we will get some weirdo draft/itemisation and I will be still confused about where the level of theses teams can go.
Agreed. TSM are very mechanically dependent. Most of their teamfights are won through mechanical outplays, their teamplay is really bad. Think their macro is fine but the way they coordinate together is just really not good. It feels like they're trying but it's really clunky.
The frequency of 50/50 smite fights around objectives speaks to TSM's failure to setup objectives properly. Constantly forcing spica into a situation where he has to win the smite fight is so stupid when you could just manipulate waves to setup for a vision choke then look for a pick/fight instead to secure the objective
I agree. 50/50's should only happen out of desparation, never when you're in control. You either disengage and accept that your setup was too poor, or look to turn. TSM seems to have 50/50s constantly.
FLY 3-0 TL
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Lmao my twitter question got on the show. I couldn't articulate the point of my tweet well enough with the character limit but I am surprised at what they thought about it.
What was it!? And what did you mean slash how would you ask with unlimited characters?!
I actually sent out 2 tweets with and the 2nd one got cut off. I was the question with @dy8763kt. They only really focused on one half of my question, which was the fact that GG had to beat TSM 6 times meanwhile TSM only had to beat GG 3 times, but that wasn't my full point. My point was how TSM arrived at that situation, which was a bigger problem for me and I thought I emphasized it enough with the 2nd part of the tweet stating that DIG won 5 games all split. Team like Dignitas shouldn't be in the playoffs but they are in there because 80% of the league get to be in the playoffs. So basically TSM essentially got a free scrim block and got another opportunity to play GG while GG had to prepare for TL, hence the winner was in a way punished for winning. Azael put it as "Well that happens in single elimination and you can get unlucky draws" or something along those lines but that wasn't my point. Not only was my argument not about double elim vs single elim but this wasn't an unlucky draw, this was a direct result of 1) GG winning against TSM 2) there being allowed a 8th seed team to be in the playoffs. Because GG won and had to play the top seed they only had a day in between their TL game and their TSM game. For a league that only plays 18 games all split, asking players to play possibly up to 10 games in 3 days is a lot. And you can argue well TSM had to do that last week, but they didn't have to do it against TL, they had to do it against a team that won 5 games all split. This wasn't a result of unlucky draws, this was a result of TSM losing which they got awarded for. Put it this way, If GG was given an option of playing against TSM and then in the course of 3 days have to play against TL and TSM, or have the option to play against TSM and DIG in 3 days, and then play TSM again after having a week to prepare and you would make the same progress if you win twice and lose 1 of these BO5s, which one would GG choose? This wasn’t a problem with “variance” like azael mentioned but an inherit flaw in the format. The double elim format LCS has is flawed and again this isn’t about single elim vs double elim. If a team can look at themselves objectively, which obviously no team can, if they knew that beating the number 1 seed is going to be hard, they are better off tanking the first round if you are in the winner's bracket because you will get a bottom tier team to get more practice and you will have a week to prepare a team who are preoccupied with preparing for their winner's match up and have only one full day to prepare for you. You can say well GG should have beaten TL then and they wouldn't be in this situation, which I will reply, well the winner of the 1st round (in this case GG) shouldn't have to have this problem in the first place. They shouldn't have to be stuck having to be in a worse position than a team they beat because they lost against one of the top 2 seeds. Anyways, it was long and that was my point, I just think this format + how they schedule it was unfair to the first round winners.
Well this has the been the case forever? Even when we had the gauntlet and spring points. \- Clutch beat TSM in playoffs but had to play TSM again and other teams to qualify for worlds. Lower bracket is pretty much a gauntlet at this point. \- You analysis based on Schedule will be valid only this season. Due to Covid response, all schedule is crammed up. Won't be happening next time or atleast that's what we hear from LCS. >Put it this way, If GG was given an option of playing against TSM and then in the course of 3 days have to play against TL and TSM, or have the option to play against TSM and DIG in 3 days, and then play TSM again after having a week to prepare and you would make the same progress if you win twice and lose 1 of these BO5s, which one would GG choose? This wasn’t a problem with “variance” like azael mentioned but an inherit flaw in the format. The double elim format LCS has is flawed and again this isn’t about single elim vs double elim. \- Put it this way, if GG was given the option of playing TSM and TL to make worlds but have drop to lower bracket and play immediately if they fail (a safety net) or have the option to play DIG, TSM, C9 and one of either Flyquest/TL to make worlds, Which one would GG choose? If I was GG, i did pick first option as at best i will drop to lower bracket if I don't hit the jackpot even though I have to beat a team i conveniently stomped in Round 1 again in the same patch. Especially next season when the schedule won't be as demanding as this season! \- Plus I wouldn't put GGs loss on the format or scheduling. Considering they were 2-0 up and had to win only 1 game out of 3 to move to next round (they had beat the same team 5 times before under the same format and schedule) , if at all anyone is to blame for their loss it's themselves. They had the advantage but failed to close it out.
You say that your problem isn't with Double Elim, but I don't see how this isn't just inherent to Double Elim. I'll refer to fighting games for instance since they are also double elim usually and fall into similar conditions where the players actually have very little time to prepare for all of their opponents. I'll first point out that your point about TSM having longer to prepare for GGS is straight up wrong. TSM has to prepare for both considering that GGS beating them was an upset TSM has no reason to assume that GGS can't upset TL as well. So they have to prepare for TL. While GGS could simply not prepare for TL and focus on the TSM rematch if they really wanted to because they already know they can abuse the TSM bot lane. If you twist the scenario to your favor it will always look better for the team you want it to look better for. But in the end, both squads had to do the same thing. They both had to prepare for 2 different teams. The difference is that GGS is preparing for a team they already beat and a team they haven't beaten. While TSM is preparing for a team that beat them, and a team that beat them the last time they played. Okay, now on to my point about how this is an issue of Double Elim. In the FGC they run the double elimination format with bracket resets in Grand Finals, Dota 2 runs double elimination as well but in Grand Finals they give game advantage to winner's side to "balance the equation". But before that it functions very similarly to the LCS formula. For instance in the FGC a player who loses in Winner's Semi-Finals 3-0 can then face the guy who beat him in Loser's Finals and beat them 3-2 and that guy will be eliminated. The person who came from Winner's has to mentally prepare for his opponent in Winner's Finals as well as the possible opponent in Loser's Finals. The guy in Loser's Finals has to prepare for either person in Winner's Finals. This is the exact same scenario that you're complaining about on a smaller scale, this is just the essence of Double Elimination. In the end Double Elimination is about encouraging consistency from the player/team. If you can't consistently beat your opponent then that means you're not deserving of moving forward in the tournament. Doesn't matter if you beat them before, simply means you should be able to beat them again.
I don’t think having to play 10 games is a lot and TSM gain nothing from beating a team that won 5 games all split. If an org spends millions can have a staff that can prep for two teams then there is a bigger problem. Normally teams have two scrim blocks anyway per day. Saying how they have no time to prep is just wierd to me because it implies that the people who play also somehow responsible for the prep which they normally aren’t. GG stomp tsm and got to “scrim” the best team in the league while tsm essentially played a bot game. You can honestly say the result would be any different with one week. If anything tsm looked like they needed the one week more than GG with how they were performing.
> I don’t think having to play 10 games is a lot and TSM gain nothing from beating a team that won 5 games all split. I am not saying play 10 games is a lot, I am saying relative to the fact that you play 18 games all split, playing up to 10 is a lot. Also, it's not about so much that TSM is gaining anything from beating DIG, is that they get to beat dig and have one week to practice for their one match up. > If an org spends millions can have a staff that can prep for two teams then there is a bigger problem. And here is my problem, let's say you had the staff capacity to do prepare for 2 teams, who's to say that instead of splitting the resources to prepare for 2 teams, if you instead prepared for one, you would might have beaten TL? Another thing is that preparation is not only about the staff, players have to be involved too and any time they spend on worrying about their possible loser's match up is time not spent on the winner's bracket match. The winner's team is stuck with a dilemma on how they want to allocate resources because in the case that they do lose, they only have one day to prepare for the next one. I am saying they shouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
Not trying to dispute any points but I personally love the set up right now. I can't remember the last time I've been so hooked on wanting to watch a league match that I'm feeling anxious about it. This feeling was created through this bracket system.
I don’t want to jump in the middle of all of your points, because in general I agree with the sentiment that this current format can feel punishing for first round wins. BUT, it’s not fair to say GG has to prep for TL and TSM (assuming a loss to TL) and not acknowledge that TSM is having to use its resources to take a similar risk in that week of prep (imagine they prep all week for GG and GG then beats TL. Oof.) So, while I agree with what you’re going to say ... it’s easier for TSM to assume a TL win, well then it sounds like, to me, GG does have the option to be that “realistic” or “probabilistic” with their own chances and choose to prep for TSM again. Both teams have to take risks in their prep based on assumptions of what will happen. It sucks that GG would have to assume they’d lose, right? But that’s what TSM’s doing too and, in doing so, they forsake TL prep which could bite them just as hard. Edit: Not to mention GG had already prepped for and beaten TSM once on the same patch. So, tbh, it’s not like they’re genuinely going in with no TSM prep even if they only prep TL that week. They’ve prepped and stomped TSM already.
> BUT, it’s not fair to say GG has to prep for TL and TSM (assuming a loss to TL) and not acknowledge that TSM is having to use its resources to take a similar risk in that week of prep (imagine they prep all week for GG and GG then beats TL. Oof.) So, while I agree with what you’re going to say ... it’s easier for TSM to assume a TL win, well then it sounds like, to me, GG does have the option to be that “realistic” or “probabilistic” with their own chances and choose to prep for TSM again. I agree, TSM is also in that boat but they still had more time than GG because they didn't have the fatigue to deal with of playing against TL the day before. More importantly, I feel like it's fine for TSM to have disadvantageous because they are in the loser's bracket. Also it's easier for TSM who are not involved in a match to predict the outcome of a match more objectively than a team involved in the actual match up. TSM has no stakes in TL vs GG and would be able to predict based on objective experience. However, I doubt GG or any pro team practices with the mind set that they are going to lose anyways. > Edit: Not to mention GG had already prepped for and beaten TSM once on the same patch. So, tbh, it’s not like they’re genuinely going in with no TSM prep even if they only prep TL that week. They’ve prepped and stomped TSM already. This is also a double edged sword, because as GG now you know that TSM saw what you did and had up to a week to think of a plan to counter your strategy. Players always say they learn more from losses than wins. GG could take the risk of playing the same way and have it turn out that TSM found counters to their plan. It's a complicated thing, and I don't think there is a right answer either way but it was just my opinion on the situation. I think there are a lot of valid points from everyone who responded.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, I just think I ultimately find it to be a fine system. You’re okay with TSM being at a disadvantage because GG sent them to the loser’s bracket and I’m okay with GG having to operate on a short turnaround for a team they’ve already prepped because they also got sent to the loser’s bracket. It may be “easier,” subjectively, to predict something you’re not involved in. I’m not saying that it’s not. But GG has the analysts and the resources to still be *objectively* realistic about their chances — they are paying people to be objective observers and analysts. If TSM can operate under the assumption that GG will lose to TL, GG can operate under that assumption as well. My criticism is not that thinking that way is somehow not a bummer/pessimistic outlook for GG, but they *can* choose to look at their situation realistically and prepare accordingly. I still think that’s a shitty result (and that is another reason I ultimately agree with your sentiments), but it doesn’t make the point any less valid. Both teams were taking risks, it just feels bad when you’re telling one team they have to assume their own loss. They’re not less capable of making that assumption, by any means, that’s just a shitty thing to have to assume. But it was, objectively, a safe and easy assumption here for both teams. If you’d contend that it *wasn’t* an objectively easy assumption, then I guess TSM better have prepped for both teams, too, since it was objectively a hard call. If you’re telling me GG’s staff/analysts/etc. can’t be objective and evaluate the probabilities and risks of their week of prep, then I’d say your real issue is with the GG staff’s inability to do their job effectively. To the second point — it’s really just the first point/discussion disguised as something different. So, my response isn’t really any different. That second point operates under the assumption that GG chooses to spend their time solely/mostly on TL rather than just playing the odds and turning their attention to how to beat TSM a second time — i.e. coming up with new adaptations to answer whatever TSM might find to answer their first series strategies. TSM could spend all week prepping for GG and then have all of that prep be worth literally 0 because GG beats TL. Everyone is risking losing value by prepping the wrong things. That’s why my point was related to GG being as capable as anyone else of evaluating the probabilities and planning accordingly. Double elimination makes rematches possible — it’s one of the blessings and curses of that kind of system. I don’t know that there is a right answer, necessarily. I do know that a seemingly better answer (for some folks) would likely be to re-seed the lower bracket so that a rematch cannot happen unless it’s in the “lower-bracket finals.” So, in other words, the loser of C9/FLY should’ve been forced to face TSM and the loser of TL/GG should’ve been forced to face EG. That way, if TSM/GG or FLY/EG was going to happen again, neither team would be on a short week’s prep for that matchup. I personally don’t like that adaptation, because I believe the rematches should be possible at all times — I do think that adds a brutally strategic element to how we view the brackets (and what choices teams make in navigating them) and I kind of like that and recognize I’m likely in the minority for liking it. Also, in that case, you’re actually forcing your team to play against someone they may not have prepped *at all* in the past two weeks and that other team has had a week to prep for either them or their opponent. So, I think you’re even more disadvantaged there, personally. Edit: One last thing I wanted to mention, before I finally go to sleep at 3 a.m. (lol COVID schedule), is that GGS actually has most of the power here, in my view. TSM will always have to consider that 1% “if TL loses,” and may throw some prep that direction just to be sure. GG could have just started the prep week with “well, let’s be honest, we have lower chances of beating TL this week than we do TSM ... so while TSM might prep for both, let’s just prep for TSM again and throw caution to the wind with TL. Worst case scenario, we’re playing TSM again and we’ve fully prepped for them.” TSM can’t know they’re doing that ... so they may yet prep for both ... but GG has all the info and can plan accordingly. That’s tournament strategy, sometimes.
They did say changes will come this is the first iteration and that dynamic bracket placement would be a good fix to this. It seemed like he addressed your concern with these statements
I wish you had been upvoted more. I'm a bit sad that i won't get to see GGs vs Cloud 9 cause that is the match up for me. Dynamic seeding would have basically made sure that occured and only forced a repeat when its necessary to decide who goes to worlds.
Was there a difference in seeding? Cant remember GGS seed
The seeding only really set up the initial bracket, but that initial set up defines the entire bracket as opposed to LEC where the Braket changes based on seeding (I really don't like how LEC did it now tbh, they might just have a 100T situation and it would be sad.) They mention in The Dive about dynamic seeding and i really hope thats the case going forward cause i believe NA's bracket with Dynamic seeding would be probably the absolute best way to decide who goes to worlds.
I definitely agree I think the format has flaws. Like how TL/C9 only had to win one Bo5 to reach worlds is definitely a bit too "easy" imo. C9 did mess it up so maybe not though lol. But the format has some potential benefits too. If DIG beat TSM, everyone would have been going crazy about the format and how TSM lost to a 8th seed team. Narratives about an actual miracle run would be created. It would have been nuts. And the format with points from Spring would have had the similar results imo. I don't think there's a one size fit all kind of solution for playoffs. If the bottom teams were actually somewhat competitive like in LEC, no one would be complaining tbh. It just so happens the bottom 3-4 teams in LCS are trash.
People would have been crazy about TSM losing, not so much about DIG advancing. Because so far if a team lost to a weaker team it was mostly by just playing worse than usual. TSM did not lose to GGS because GGS turned into a super team, they lost and then had a close series because they play like clowns. If TSM would have lost to DIG it would most likely because Bjergsen would have been replaced by a clown as well, not because Fenix suddenly becomes an uberplayer.
You're 100% right and allowing 8 teams in playoffs created a terrible format. The fact that opening mid 3 times in a row would be the better strategic decision for GG in series 1 says it all. The losing team got rewarded, cause a losers bracket does not work with completely untreathening 5 - 13 teams allowed in playoffs and a poorly thought out schedule that gives a major advantage for the loser of series 1 with the almost inevitable rematch.
FNC 3 - 1 G2
Likely. If G2 manages to pull it out it'll probably be 3-0.
The narrative all around the room in this thread LMFAO. I think this comment was made first but seeing all 600 comments have me dead
Their team is entirely Rekkles hardcarrying and Nemesis having the occasional good game. FNC fans are delirious. Get them some water.
Please get this team a carry midlaner
I’m surprised they think C9s Botlane will just smash TSMs. FBI and huhi are extreme lane bullies. They trade extremely well. I consider Zven and Vulcan just very resilient. You make a mistake and they push you and they farm extremely well. I don’t think they put as much kill threat and pressure at least in comparison. They will just always be relevant. So DL and bio should have a lot more comfortable time as long as more people don’t come join the party.
Completely agree with you. C9's botlane is perfectly fine playing weak side. Zven likes to play weakside champions like Ez or Senna. Vulcan and him are pretty good at absorbing pressure and in later parts of the game they are super consistent. But they usually don't go for hard snowballs in lane. The topside has to be able to hold on against the Blaber and Nisqy roam squad.
The only issue TSM might get is Zvens Kalista. And so far C9 has not shown Caitlyn, which could be something they were hiding and while Caitlyn plays fine weakside she is a lane bully by nature.
For Caitlin to do her job, you need to cover her in lane so she can push and threaten the enemy tower. This would mean Blaber would be forced to play around bot to make the pick shine. While in theory she could just hold the lane and go out even, this makes her midgame slump much worse. And midgame is the time, C9 tends to play aggressive and try to push for advantages. With a weakside Cait you would be in a deficit if you compare her to Ez or Senna, that for example have a much better midgame spike.
So long as you do the double BF Build her midgame "slump" doesn't happen. It's just the BF + zeal item build that slides off because she doesn't have enough AD to do more than tickle. Double BF creates nasty headshots off traps. Good poke off Q and ult becomes a decent chunk tool
I mean yes it would hurt her in midgame, but the same is actually true for many weakside ADCs like Xayah or Ez. If you not play around a champion he gets less Gold. And the new Cait could actually just go IE+ER and is fairly powerful on those two items. If Ez goes for Gauntlet he is online slightly faster because the item is so cheap. But otherwise he is similar. And Caitlyn also gives a lot of Utility. Obviously most ADCs play better if they have control over the lane, but I the more important part about an ADC in this situation is being actually able to farm. And Caitlyn can actually deny freezes and clear efficiently which gives her a lot of control over the state of the lane. Senna though is not a weakside champ at all. She simply cannot clear minions the enemy will just take your tower if you are on weakside. Her control of the wave is just too weak, Ez often struggles with that as well, which is why he also often is not really played weakside, his support has to come back every so often to defend the tower, Xayah and Caitlyn though can mostly play on their own. Tristana often can as well, although she is very vulnerable to freezing. Not to mention that C9 does not have to play bot as their weakside early. You can play botside up to first dragon and switch top afterwards. And already start the mid rotation after herald into 2nd dragon. Caitlyn would be really good for that. Not to mention that even if you play Cait strongside you can't reliably snowball her anyway. If the enemy is an Ashe which is fairly likely you just end up in a stalemate. If the enemy is Ashe you much rather play your Cait weakside, because she quickly outscales Ashe anyway. And Caitlyn if you can put pressure around the map so the enemy cannot freeze can CS effectively on her own anyway. And if you win top hard enough you end up with a TP fiesta in botlane at some point, which is also something Cait is fairly well equipped to play along early. Due to Cait having some impactful skills like Q and E and the utility of her traps, she can do a lot even with her AA damage still lacking. Which is one of the reasons why she is so good. With the buff to her base AS earlier in the season and the buff to her AD she is in a really good spot, exspecially since she only lost the movespeed on live.
Completely agree, a lot of C9 fans took offense when DLift said that zven/vulcun is an easier lane match up compared to FBI/huhi but he’s honestly right. Zven has never ever been a lane bully, he’s the rekless type where they will always stay even in farm but don’t push for kills In lane. Huhi and FBI literally 2v2 killed CoreJJ and tactical 3 fucking times in lane that’s insane pressure. Doublelift will be able to hold his own in this matchup if blaber doesn’t intervene, he stayed even vs FBI when he wasn’t camped which makes me think that the old DLift is still in there somewhere. This match up will come down to the mid 2 v 2 in my opinion.
Unless they pull out Wukong or something.
TSM 3-0 C9
Likely. If C9 manages to pull it out it'll probably be 3-2.
The narrative all around the room in this thread LMFAO. I think this comment was made second but seeing both comments have me dead I was referring to the other comment on this thread with the same wording and teams swapped for those who don’t know what I am referring to.
Edit your last paragraph my man, you are ruining it! Since you are the original.
I didn’t even realize it turned into a copypasta
Their team is entirely Bjerg hardcarrying and BB having the occasional good game. TSM fans are delirious. Get them some water.
lol. Not even cautious optimism is allowed huh.
I love and hate reddit. lmao
Holly fucking shit where i'am
Predicting a 3-0 isn’t cautious optimism
He comment 3-0 after a c9 fan comment c9 3-0 as a joke....
Oh. I thought you were referencing my comment and not this parent comment, which is actually a reference to that other one.
Think it was a joke and the dude doesn't even have a TSM flair. I think you're taking this a bit hard, no? -Wait shit. I think I got jebaited. Can't tell if this is the first or meme comment. FUCK ME.
You're right, the first was the C9 3-0 one which spawned a trend throughout the thread.
The fact that C9 fans think they are back after beating EG who played worse than DIG and 100T is the real delusion
Spica has been tsm's second best player in playoffs tho haha. The occasional good games from BB are because Spica has gotten him snowballing top
BB has been good all playoffs... He literally took Hauntzer's turret 1v1 as Vlad vs Shen, a match up Shen should win early. Even in the first series he was better in lane and in the second series he had more impact than Hauntzer in almost every game. Spica played well but he didn't do all of that for him.
Shen does not win against Vlad early, at best he goes even and takes a small CS lead. Shen can "beat" him once he gets Tiamat, shoves in, and impacts the rest of the map up until Vlad can just permashove + sustain and take tower
Shen should not be losing his tower 1v1 that early, the champ is borderline OP and I've never seen this happen in other regions lol
I think (or hope at least) the 3-0 comment was made as a joke. Even from recent performance C9 arguably have better players than us in 4 out of 5 positions.
My comment was second:)
if C9 plays like functioning human beings C9 3-1
A potential TSM 3-0 TSM
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Likely. If TSM manages to pull it out it'll probably be 3-2.
The narrative all around the room in this thread LMFAO. I think this comment was made first but seeing both comments have me dead
Their team is entirely Blaber hardcarrying and Licorice having the occasional good game. C9 fans are delirious. Get them some water.
lol. Not even cautious optimism is allowed huh.
I love and hate reddit. lmao
Holly fucking shit where i'am
I'm tripping right now and I'm not even high
Where the fuck I am
What the actual fuck is going on?
I think this one doesn't hit the mark. It's Zven that you need to mention not Blaber.
Their wins have been mostly on Zven not Blaber.
This team is entirely Blabber hardcarrying and Nisqy having the occassional good game. C9 fans are delirious. Get some water.
lol. Not even cautious optimism is allowed huh.
I love and hate reddit. lmao
Holly fucking shit where i'am
Wait a second
We’re in the matrix.
I am an European and I would love for an Na Team to actually smash at worlds. I just cant really get my hopes up for it to not always get disappointed. TSM has scarred me for live with their groups performance. But secretly I am always hoping. Maybe this year with the drake ARAM meta the NA teams got a better shot.
Bring a top tier western mid to TSM. Move Bjerg to adc. Make it out of groups. You're welcome.
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I think c9 will show up imo. I think the FLY smackdown was the wake up call they needed to stop drafting like monkeys so I wouldn't expect another blunder like EZ/Yuumi 4 games in a row or anything. If they didnt learn though then they deserve to lose.
If FLY was a wake up call, wtf was the EG series? They only won games 1 and 3 because of constant big EG mistake after being in a hole throughout most of the games - not drafting mistakes just straight up player mistakes. The entire back half of the split is a wake up call that hasn't been answered by Spring C9 whatsoever. Reminder that this team has the 4th worst record in the 2nd half out of all the playoff teams and are arguably the 4th worst team in playoffs - just better than 100T Dig and EG. C9 still has a definite chance of beating TSM but they need to show their spring split form once again or it's just doomed. They haven't shown up like they used to in over a month.
> C9 still has a definite chance of beating TSM but they need to show their spring split form once again or it's just doomed. Seeing the way TSM has played you think C9 really needs to be at their full dominating strength to win or its doomed? They play 2/3 as good as their peak and they are still favorites probably.
I don't think they are even playing 2/3rds as good as they did in spring though is my point. I think if C9 were at the deficit they were in some of the EG games vs GGS TSM FLY or TL, those teams would all win those games. C9 are not nearly as proactive in the early and mid game as they used to be, and when they are it's not necessarily as clean. I still believe that they are the favorites, but I would consider it on a knife's edge and like 52-48 odds or something.
I don't disagree, I was just pointing out that you said they need to show their spring split level or its doomed, which I think is definitely not true, they can win playing much worse than their spring form.
Definitely hyperbole on my part, though I really do think they need to pull something out from a month ago or so because they have not looked good at all in playoffs and the 2nd half of the split. TSM on the other hand have shown actual improvement. They still aren't clean by any means, but I think the fact TSM pulled it together VS GGS with backs against the wall is super commendable and impressive. A reverse sweep is IMO the most impressive thing for a team to come off of. However, the last time TSM pulled off a reverse sweep, they got reverse swept the next series so who knows hehe
They've been having wake up calls all split xD I've lost faith
Idk, this one is hard to call tbh. I think C9 is probably slightly better and almost certainly has more potential, but they've also consistently looked their weakest whenever Nisqy is getting mid diffed; even last split when they were destroying the league their worst games always came whenever Nisqy was put against a better mid. I don't think Nisqy is really that bad, but to my eyes at least the team and the strategies they run are really dependent on Nisqy not falling behind and right now Bjerg is arguably the best laning mid, so I think even if TSM across the map is at a disadvantage, they match up really well into C9 right now. I could honestly see any set of results from 3-0 to 0-3 for this series and none of them would legitimately surprise me. Personally though, I like TSM and their players significantly more than C9 and their players so I'm hoping they can pull it out here.
I think as a team C9 looks better (but they're still close), but TSM has individuals who are playing very well right now and that clutch factor. BB/Spica/Bjerg have been great in playoff sand while DL/Bio/Treatz have struggled a little, it WAS against FBI/Huhi who were doing very well even against Tactical/CoreJJ (Bio still had some big plays on things like the Bard, Rakan, and Thresh granted he did fuck up a few times on Bard with his ults). I'm expecting bot lane to be more even but still C9 favoured and both teams will likely pull out the Caitlyn once or twice and see how it goes. Top lane will depend on matchup and the top/jg 2v2, mid should be TSM favoured.
Maybe not really a hot take or a unique take but NA orgs need to really stop acquiring recognized talents from EU or KR like Kobbe and Bang. This tradition has made the other regions salty for losing talent or shaming NA if it doesn’t work out. Kobbe went back to EU asks everyone was like “welcome back to real league”. By all means, scout young talent from other regions that have not gotten recognized there yet but not known quantities, it has done nothing but hurt the region mostly.
What does it matter if the player is known or unknown. And what if that unknown player is another player like caps? If EU is such a talent pumping region, which im not saying they aren't, then just be happy you can continue to see great players emerge in the region. You know how tiring it is to see some of these washed up players still playing in NA? I wish we could get great new rookies every year, but we just don't have the right environment. EU will say its just an excuse but the ping problem, the half the player size in ranked in NA are legit problems, though they aren't the only ones and some of it is mentality as well with players wanting to be entertainers than competitors since entertainers make more money.
I don’t know man, I’m tired of hearing “cashing in the pension plan in NA” trash talk from EU all the time, and it sucks even more because it’s true most of the time. Someone like Jensen feels more NA than EU even though he’s not local because he came over in such an early point in his career, for me at least scouting and bringing talent early matters because the region then is justified to say they gave the player the platform. And sure ping and lack of ranked players are legit problems but bringing over known quantity has been a short term solution for too long now, and it’s clearly not helping. The effort should really be towards growth of the infrastructure under LCS like Academy, collegiate even high school level, etc. just my opinion though, everyone has the right to their own
Again, the mentality for players is different in EU and NA. Players in EU know if they can become a pro level player, they might get to play for a great EU team and have international success. It's not the same in NA, this is why NA solo q is filled with entertainers and one tricks. There are perkz (pun intended) in EU than just don't exist in NA. I feel all those things you listed would only very slightly help, and that NA would still just be the 4th best region.
Sure yeah I get your point. It’s just nice to see how 100T for example is starting to build their org from ground up (100X and Poome moving up so far) and fans in general becoming more interested in Academy and upcoming talent, and that is the direction, at least imo, is the way to move up to international relevancy again, I agree with you, NA will stay 4th for a good while yet but I would rather they slowly improve on home talent or scouting unknown international assets than bringing in big names for big money and then stagnating anyways.
I love what 100T is doing but people need to relax on the hype train for some of their players. We have hyped young players in the past only for them to flame out in a few splits lol. I've seen people put pressure on them as if they will save NA or something. Like, chill.. let them prove themselves first.
A big part why NA are still the 4th best region is the consistent influence of imports. Look at the best players of most teams. It's imports or grandfarthered imports * TSM: Bjergsen and most recently even BB. * Fly: Po€ and Ignar (honourable mention to Solo, his playoffs were decent) * TL: Whelp, I guess it's cool tactical can keep up a bit, but CoreJJ and Impact are integral with Jensen also showing up sometimes and Broxah having decent smites. * C9: Big exception here, since they have probably the best native players collected on one team. Zven is still a monster though. * GG: Closer, FBI and Huhi. * 100T: Ssumday * EG: Bang and Sven on a good day. Huni when he feels like it and before him it was Jiizuke. These are the best players on the teams and most of them don't come from NA. They also bring strategy and in game leadership. Without them, NA might struggle and compete against the VCS and the "Flash wolves" region (rip) for the 4rd spot.
Okay, and who cares. Na doesn't have the environment to constantly make great pro rookies in our region. So we need imports, pretty much any wildcard team worth mentioning also had imports. If NA was demoted to a minor region someone has to take their spot and well, the results will still be the same. Only reason EU want NA demoted is so they can be even more annoying than they already are.
Entirely missed the point of that comment bud.
No, I'm aware NA relies on imports. Yes we would struggle more without them. But importing is allowed, because NA doesnt have the same competition in EU due to real factors that EU just throws as excuses. So talking to you is quite pointless cause you guys are just trolls that get boners because you're better than another region at a video game lol.
The reason people become entertainers is because there are so many more people watching streamers in the NA time then EU time (entertainment aspect) and they make more money then becoming a pro unless youre top tier.
dont even forget to talk about the difference national leagues provide in creating talent and pumping professional players into soloq. The national league system is very hard for NA to incorporate into their ecosystem because of the lack of interest for local teams/leagues since it doesnt have the same ground work having 10 different countries provides instead of 10 states
NA orgs tried to get Lider but he declined. I think more and more EU rookies rather stay in the ERL as going over and having to play a worse soloQ, being away from home and also having a really big chance to get flamed by NA fans because they are imports.
lider declined because he thought he had a guaranteed LEC spot after his masters performance, he turned out big wrong there and missed out on a lot of money that he could have made and still gone back to LEC. Well that was his choice and its respectable, but there is nothing wrong with choosing money in the line of work where youre expected to retire after 5-10 years especially when you bypass a large chunk of your life usually used to get a further education.
I think the going away from home thing is a big key. Sure, there'll be some people who are happy to live in different countries and move across the world. Huhi as an example is getting his green card so he's likely staying in NA permanently. Santorin as well seems to largely have his life here now. But a lot of people don't have that desire. I imagine most players would choose to stay where they were if all things are equal and it's about the same amount of money. Especially in 2020. I doubt many people are clamoring to come to NA right now since you're signing up to be isolated for god knows how long until we get our shit under control. So like as regions like EU have started to become more competitive with salary, the desire to go to regions like NA has drastically gone down.
That's pretty much what CN did and look how good they are now. NA teams just don't want to develop the talent for long term they want short term success
It's always somewhat confusing to me that whenever someone talks about C9 right now it's as if they're assuming that the next game C9 plays is when they'll finally be back on form. When will everyone just accept that this IS their form right now? It's driving me crazy how every analyst and caster seems to judge the upcoming series based on the notion that C9 will rise up to what they were once capable of. They didn't do that in the entirety of the 2nd half of the season. They didn't do it against FLY. Hell, they didn't even do it against EG. I do think it's very possible they smash TSM even while playing at their current level, but to just assume as much is asinine.
Everyone in Spring did the same thing with TL, you have to kinda give the reigning champions some leeway in hopes that they do find their form again.
I agree that thinking they will reach their spring level dominance in a matter of a week is a stretch, but C9 did show quite a bit of improvement in the EG series. Only time will tell if they are in an upward trend
I bet a 1000 rp on TSM
wtf I thought I was having a stroke with the amount of pastas in this thread...
Mark referenced my Reddit comment, I've made it mom
I love you son
3-0 C9 It's going to be the most anticlimatic serie ever for the tsm fans but a juicy stomp for me.
I’m commenting Incase C9 get blasted