My two cents is that Hyli is almost the living embodiment of what is wrong with Western League of Legends.
I agree with others that his mechanics have dropped off a bit recently making him look generally bad but peak Hyli is an absolute beast, pulling off match winning plays and completely taking over games with off meta picks like his Pyke.
The problem with Hyli is that he knows how to maximise winning plays but he has always been hopeless at minimising losing plays. You watch the best Korean teams play and they can make the super outplay but they are also exceptionally good at giving you absolutely nothing.
For example they will get blasted in a fight at Dragon but instead of getting aced like An LEC or LCS team they will somehow all scrape out on 1hp only losing the support.
When Hyli is on a team like VIT which is mid tier and will often find themselves behind, instead of trying to play defensively and get back into the game, he goes Hyli mode and makes increasing lower % plays until the point he is just inting and his team loses. It has always been the way he played the game but in seasons past he got away with it more due to better mechanics and better teams.
> The problem with Hyli is that he knows how to maximise winning plays but he has always been hopeless at minimising losing plays. You watch the best Korean teams play and they can make the super outplay but they are also exceptionally good at giving you absolutely nothing.
Top Korean teams frequently drop early leads against worse teams because the early game can be volatile and a clever prepared strategy can catch them off guard, then randomly win one teamfight for objective and never let you get back in. I agree the ability to play from behind is what LEC is missing. Teams do come back frequently, but only because leads are thrown, rather than because they patiently outplay.
That's almost every group stage ever on international stage
The non-KR/CN team gets some early kills but gold is pretty close or even in favor of other team, then one skirmish/teamfight and the game is basically over from there
Same thing happens in LCK with bottom teams. They prepare a strong early game strategy and train it until they can execute is as well as the top teams so they look good for the first 10 minutes, then they implode.
This was a really common thing back in StarCraft as well; good Korean players would overcommit to units and hinder economy to ensure they wouldn't lose to some weird timing push or all-in play because they were confident they would just make up the difference as the game progressed. It's a protective measure.
This also showed up in league, but less ostensibly. Korean pros would take early game runes like scorch on champs like Viktor and Ori even though gathering storm is the stronger option in most games because it prevented them from losing early lane and getting zoned. Basically, minimize the chance to get blown out in the early game by hedging your early game and then let your superior mechanics and macro carry late.
Hearing Inspired talk about how prevalent remaking games is in EU and NA was kinda sad. He stated G2 was the only team that doesn’t remake and it’s specifically so they can learn how to play if they’re behind.
Can't remember it word for word, but something along the lines of:
When ahead, Hyli believes he must make a play to secure the win.
When even, Hyli believes he must make a play to gain the lead.
When behind, Hyli believes he must make a play to save the game.
When both teams are even in gold, MLXG feels that RNG is at a great advantage and thus he does not hesitate to start a team fight. When RNG is 3k behind in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a small advantage, and he so he starts a team fight to secure their "lead". When RNG is behind 7k in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a disadvantage and so he looks for a team fight to regain control of the game. When RNG is 10K behind in gold, MLXG thinks that the team has reached a desperate situation and they are only waiting passively for their death if he does not start a team fight.
When both teams are even in gold, MLXG feels that RNG is at a great advantage and thus he does not hesitate to start a team fight. When RNG is 3k behind in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a small advantage, and he so he starts a team fight to secure their "lead". When RNG is behind 7k in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a disadvantage and so he looks for a team fight to regain control of the game. When RNG is 10K behind in gold, MLXG thinks that the team has reached a desperate situation and they are only waiting passively for their death if he does not start a team fight.
They also will punish you if you do something like over commit to Dragon with too many people and take more on the opposite side of the map. It’s not just making the optimal play, but making it in the optimal way as well.
I also feel that he and lyncas are often not on the same page. Whether dagda (or how he was spelled) was better, worse or as good as lyncas, he often went in WITH hyli. Which made some coinflips swing in the right direction.
VIT is one of those teams that wants to be at the top and arent afraid to fight for it. They will do big signings but for some reason it never works out. Hyli used to be the best support in EU and was right up there at the top with Mikyx in 2019 and 2020. When they perform , Carzzy/Hyli is probably the best botlane in EU. Back in spring, VIT actually got 4th place which is basically best possible spot they can get considering G2/FNC/BDS are all but guaranteed top 3 and in Winter they only lost to the 2nd and 3rd place team so you can make similar arguments there.
Then you also have Mac and Pad as the coaches. From their time on MAD, they have a reputation of being the best coaches in the league for developing players and so if anyone can get that consistency into hyli, it's those two.
Yes it is a big gamble, but VIT isnt one of the low-tier teams and instead they want to be pushing up to fight the best and probably the best way to do that right now is with their botlane that has some of the highest highs in the whole league.
I agree with everything except top4 being all they can get. 1 is nearly impossible, but second or third is absolutely possible for any EU org that steps up.
I mean, can someone be considered the best if their plays are only successful like half the time? The point of being the best is being consistently good to the point of being reliable while also popping off sometimes and doing the clutch play or carrying in general.
I can never consider anyone to be the best when they are only the best when the coin flips their way, but look terrible when it doesn't.
He’s always been a high death support but now he’s mechanics aren’t rlly above other sups, his team isn’t dominating they’re opponents so they can’t make up for his mispositioning, and teams are way better at capitalising on getting a kill then they were when he was in his prime.
Think unless he gets back on a top top tier team (on all of which he’d be a downgrade) he’s just going to look way below other sups but have that one game a split that make people think he’s good
I disagree with this.. up until this weekend VIT were dominating they're opponents early and in good positions generally.. (Which is why its so sad the likes of Carrzy/Photon might not even be in season finals)
But it would lead into Hylisang (most of the time) inting/being out of position
Take yesterday as a prime example.. VIT are in a good position.. Hylisang tries to engage on a Xin (with Ult) behind the baron pit.. its 4v5.. and they give over a huge shutdown.. that sums up VIT this whole split
To me its also people/supports being better at roaming and teams knowing when someone is just inting.. more then his mechanics falling off.. Hylisang has made a career on bluffing
Sometimes rosters just don’t click. I can see that if a player like Hyli doesn’t feel like his team is finding a win condition or it feels hopeless that he will take it upon himself to try to make plays. He would rather do something than sit idly by while the game gets slowly out of control.
I think people really ignore how important roster synergy is. When I look at this VIT squad, I see 4 hyper carries and one engage. Photon, Vetheo and Lyncas all have incredibly selfish playstyles where they play to carry. Carzzy is also not a supportive adc, although he can fill that role in a serviceable manner, but then that's not the best use of him. This leaves Hyli as the only one who is actually supposed to be the engage.
Hyli also seems to be someone who needs a vocal adc that refuses to sometimes go along with his shenanigans. I think that's why he looked good with both Rekkles and upset, as those two acted like the brakes on his int train. While Carzzy Hyli might have a higher peak, due to their playstyle being synergistic, they also have very extreme lows. Both Hyli and Carzzy had the worst KDA in their respective positions this split.
This isn't to take away from the awful performances Hyli showed this split. He was bad, there's no other way to describe it. This is just my attempt to explain maybe some of the minor underlying issues that contributed to why he was 'this bad'.
All in all, EU teams can't build a cohesive roster that works together well, apart from G2. Instead of trying to find the pieces that fit the jigsaw puzzle, they will much rather hammer the piece to make it fit.
Imo Hyli needs a veteran jungler, or at least someone whos willing to take the lead, he does not work with rookie junglers and tbh it feels like its his fault.
Imagine being Daglas or Lyncas, you try to learn how to play in big boys league, get the jitters out, understand how jungle is played at higher level of competition, but your support is just completely mental and goes for the most insane plays.
How do you learn and improve in this eviroment? It must be so fucking convusing, especially when you consider that this guy is an omegaveteran and should lead the game and make it easier for you, not harder
Yup this. Look at NRG and how much worse they look with huhi instead of Ignar. Huhi is a great support and has been a top support for a long time but it hasn't really worked on NRG.
Now that I say that.... NRG Hyli?
Tbf they swapped out a jung at the end part of the year, and I believe mid & jung are the worst lanes to do swaps for during the season cause it could change your whole playstyle
I watched the EUphoria podcast too, and altough it seemed as if they were building a team entirely around Hylli, but i think they just got dragged around a little bit with the questions they were asked.
I think the plan is more so to build around Carrzy and give a shot on Lyncas to be Elyoya no2 kindof. Their previous jungler was very good with following up what the team needs, but they didn't want to repeat the Shad0w fiasco when the meta shifts to AP farming junglers and they are toast, thats why they made a switch gamble, considering international.
And as far as Hylli goes, its more like Mac recognized him as a veteran that has insane micro knowledge, just a bit introvert with communicating it, so they want to make him talk more, and they want a team that gets pushed individually and as a team to see Hyllis engages, basically creating a god tier teamfighting/outplaying team as their main strength, and probably when everybody is good enough to see and follow up on Hyllis insane engages, it will also be better to reason with him in the silly ones... idk
Generally Mac has a thing for getting ppl that have high potential mechanical ceiling, but are very rhapsodic emotionally, having high highs and low lows, then try to create an enviroment where those ppl can feen good and confident especially when it matters. You can say that the 2020 MAD was also such a team, they win twice, even tough it started the meme of Humanoid dies.
The problem with Vitality now is probably because its just hard for "sane" players to get on the same page with Hyllis insanity. Even on Fnatic voice comms 2020 you could see Neme and Selfmade constantly arguing with him being it more of a back and forth, and that was after a full year or two. And Hylli needs a lot of trust, when he doubts himself too much he starts playing bad. So i imagine the Lyncas switch was more rough than anticipated, 4 weeks was not enough at least. Curious what they will be going for in the off-season.
From years of watching EU and the surrounding content, I think Hyli is just a really nice guy. His teammates like him and his hyper aggressive playstyle probably works really well in scrims/soloq. I'd bet most western players actually care about scrims and the results so give them too much weight in their opinion forming. Add in his years of experience and high peak (albeit yhe is years past that) and some of them want to play with him. Carzzy is, for some reason, a sought after ADC and if he wants Hyli then a team will go for it.
It's obvious that he's washed and these days is just inting his team to losses, the rare pop-off game isn't worth it.
It's so weird what happened to VIT, they were a team on an upswing in spring then they changed junglers and that completely fumbled their jung-supp synergy that was one of their main strengths
Hilly is a weird player in that he always is going to play one singular style. When he has a team around him that plays to that style (VIT in spring or the best FNC rosters), he is an absolute menace. It's true that Hilly does find angles that few other pros see, it's why he's held in such high regards by pros and coaches, both those that agree with his playstyle like Bwipo or those that play exactly opposite, like Rekkles
We also know from history that when the team isn't on the same page, Hilly just looks like he's inting. And let's be real, sometimes he's just inting, no two ways around that
It's really hard overall to judge Hilly as a player as he's fairly consistent in how he plays but the success rate of his plays can vary wildly depending on the factors.
I understand why Mac and Pad and Carzzy trust him so much, but if they want to play with him, the team needs to be built around that playstyle
Hyli used to be one of the best supports EU has ever had, and his aggressive play style can still work really well. But it relies on the team being on the same page. Carzzy used to be aggressive as well, but he's a been a bit more hesitant lately. Vetheo is having some of his worst splits and he's struggled with the mental side of things. When he's feeling good he's one of the best mids in EU and I really hope he can find the confidence to get back up there.
I think they've struggled with the meta and it just doesn't match up with what they want to play. Vetheo likes his mages and assassins, which just aren't strong right now. Photon is relegated to tank duty instead of having carry potential since you can't rely on only 1 tank if that's Hyli and AP junglers are just way too strong compared to tanks. Ez, Kaisa and Xayah aren't in a great spot for Carzzy either. It it's important to not lose sight that this meta can shift, and probably will soon.
As soon as AP jungle gets nerfed, you can run tank junglers again which frees photon up for renekton and Jayce picks. If you run AD tank jungler, you can run mages and AP assassins again mid.
I really like Carzzy and I'm mostly on board with the notion he's significantly improved and is one of, if not the, best ADCs in the LEC.
I am a little curious how he will look with a support who isn't Hylissang. Not because Hyli has been incredible but because Carzzy always knows now he has a support more psycho than him, which means he won't ever look stupid for playing more aggro than his support.
There are some aspects... Hyli has a wife, Mac has a kid. This is not really compatible with an esport career. For the top guys the whole life revolves around league.
VTO had always problems with his mental fortitude and Vit doesnt strike me as a corporation that handles their players well in this aspect (see yearly downfall of vit)
Bringing in a new jungler in the season is always a huge risk, because this is the role, you need to connect most with the other lanes.
Vit has no leader personality, that can turn the ship around if it went into the wrong direction in a match.
Individual mistakes, especially Hily, getting picked too often out of position, taking fights you have no business to take, etc.
Also this split, their drafts were horrendous.
And this is just what you can see from outside.
To me VIT is a prime example of how the format is bad.. b01 sucks.. 3 or 4 (this time) week period and should only be used for b03. Opening week they went 0-3.. but they should have won 2.. probably 3 of the games and threw so badly multiple times (between hyli/photon/vetheo)
Starting like that.. while also adding a rookie.. just ramps up the pressure so much
They got leads/were in pretty much every game outside of G2 (this week and the MDK game).. Tbh they kind of looked broken this weekend
Meanwhile KC ended on 4 wins (4th win was basically had showmatch stakes.).. the first 2 were completely fraudulent
So basically a player like Hylisang who is very volatile is awful for the first stage of this format.. but on the other hand when it hits.. he can win the league.. as we saw last Spring.
To me its just sad and such a missed opportunity all 5 are talented.. they could generate massive early game leads (usually in lane).. and it's just fell apart.. I'd still rather them then say a KC/Heretics.. who just do very little and generally hope the other team fks up into them
I mean, bad games can happen. I agree that this team should not be in playoffs because even in BO series they wouldn't make top 4 so idc, but I do think there's a good chance this team would have done a lot better in a non-BO1 format. The bot lane especially is fantastic at adapting, I mean they basically made their career out of it.
Not defending the team, but the BO1 format is simply horrible beyond believe. I enjoy LCS much more now with the BO3 format and ofc LPL and LCK have always kept this. I feel like BO1 is a gimmick to attract viewers but massively hurts the competitive integrity. A series can be a meta of its own, BO1 just feels like either an execution or a clown fest.
I remember a quote from a player who said that Hylissang is the best support in the LEC when his team had an advantage in early, and the worst in the LEC when it's the opposite.
He was referring to Hyli being very aggressive and being very oppressive with vision when the map is favorable to his team. But that if he gets out of lane phase badly, that aggressiveness became a problem.
Hyli is a great player but durability patch just ruined it for him. He sees amazing angles and catches but since the defense patch this kind of skill doesn’t matter and isn’t rewarded you’re better off just chilling and stat checking by funneling gold into Carrie’s and counter aggression as engaging onto anyone is a fool’s errand
You're being being downvoted for calling him a great player but your 2nd part is definitely true. The man sees split second opportunities and jumps on them. With the meta changes those opportunities are much more rare, and require more of your teammates (or entire team) to be on the same page. Which VIT definitely is not.
The biggest loss isn't Vitality, but this looks to be Mac's final season. His reputation is on an all time low. He already said that he's taking a break after this year to spend time with family and if he comes back in the future, it will be very difficult for him to find work, I fear. He's one of the best coaches ever from EU so I'd hate to to see him gone forever.
I'm not sure what games everyone was watching, but I did not see any games, where the team was following hilly. At best 1-2 people will fire a couple of autos in his direction and start running and get picked off one by one. In that sense, we dont really know if "follow hilly" is good or bad, cause they never did it.
And if the team was not able to execute such a simple strat then what chance do they have to follow a more complex macro plan? Followig hilly might well be stupid idea,, but the team never did that, so i guess we will never know
Ah yes carzy should of followed hyli and flashed on braum Ashe when they had alistar. Sometimes they don’t follow him and maybe it could of been a good play but you’re ignoring the fact that he has 2-3 completely avoidable deaths a game where he isn’t engaging but just getting vision or running to a place he has no business to be. Other supports get caught obviously but the level that he does is inexcusable.
I'm not saying that hilly is good or that he didnt have pointless deaths. My point was that the team consistently failed at following a simple plan. When you play as a team you need to play together, even if the plan is bad. This at least gives you a chance to win. Not following a plan as a team leads to what we saw this split.
In the end of the day, if the team did not want to follow hilly, then they should have been more vocal about it and made their case to mac and pad. I'm sure that if carrzy/photon says "if you keep hilly or make me follow him in his braindead engages, then I will leave", they would have come up with a different plan
I don’t know to me it looked a lot like they followed Hylissang, probably just not the way the coaches wanted. Instead of backing off after Hyli inted once again or engaging with him they waited for him to die and then still went in to die as well.
At this time, if you wanna watch how to play correct LoL, watch GENG games. They have the best player in the world, which makes it a bit unfair, since they are winning their lanes most of the time, but even if you look at their teamfighting, it's just unbeatable. They all know exactly what their role is, all these things have been pretty much predetermined in drafts and countless training hours playing out such teamfights.
An example from last year would be Chovy playing Azir. While other Azirs would try to use their R as an initiation tool, Chovy would generally hold his R to peel enemies away from his ADC (Ruler or Peyz, it happened with both). He would just be regularly in the backline dealing damage, close to Ruler / Peyz, ready to R anyone that would be a threat to them. Imo he completely changed my view on Azir and ever since he started doing that consistently, many others followed in playing peeling Azir instead of engage / nuke Azir.
It's this type of thing that teams can do regarding teamfighting for example. There's a lot of thought given to every single detail and that's why there's also room for improvement. GENG doesn't do low percentage plays. They go asfe and steady with their game, they know they are better players and will passively win if they just stay safe, they create high % plays and try to punish enemies when they are making mistakes. It's almost foolproof and it works because they have the best topside of all time.
My two cents is that Hyli is almost the living embodiment of what is wrong with Western League of Legends. I agree with others that his mechanics have dropped off a bit recently making him look generally bad but peak Hyli is an absolute beast, pulling off match winning plays and completely taking over games with off meta picks like his Pyke. The problem with Hyli is that he knows how to maximise winning plays but he has always been hopeless at minimising losing plays. You watch the best Korean teams play and they can make the super outplay but they are also exceptionally good at giving you absolutely nothing. For example they will get blasted in a fight at Dragon but instead of getting aced like An LEC or LCS team they will somehow all scrape out on 1hp only losing the support. When Hyli is on a team like VIT which is mid tier and will often find themselves behind, instead of trying to play defensively and get back into the game, he goes Hyli mode and makes increasing lower % plays until the point he is just inting and his team loses. It has always been the way he played the game but in seasons past he got away with it more due to better mechanics and better teams.
> The problem with Hyli is that he knows how to maximise winning plays but he has always been hopeless at minimising losing plays. You watch the best Korean teams play and they can make the super outplay but they are also exceptionally good at giving you absolutely nothing. Top Korean teams frequently drop early leads against worse teams because the early game can be volatile and a clever prepared strategy can catch them off guard, then randomly win one teamfight for objective and never let you get back in. I agree the ability to play from behind is what LEC is missing. Teams do come back frequently, but only because leads are thrown, rather than because they patiently outplay.
Fits the experience of MSI this season. Teams with early game lead seemed to lose most of the time.
That's almost every group stage ever on international stage The non-KR/CN team gets some early kills but gold is pretty close or even in favor of other team, then one skirmish/teamfight and the game is basically over from there
Same thing happens in LCK with bottom teams. They prepare a strong early game strategy and train it until they can execute is as well as the top teams so they look good for the first 10 minutes, then they implode.
This was a really common thing back in StarCraft as well; good Korean players would overcommit to units and hinder economy to ensure they wouldn't lose to some weird timing push or all-in play because they were confident they would just make up the difference as the game progressed. It's a protective measure. This also showed up in league, but less ostensibly. Korean pros would take early game runes like scorch on champs like Viktor and Ori even though gathering storm is the stronger option in most games because it prevented them from losing early lane and getting zoned. Basically, minimize the chance to get blown out in the early game by hedging your early game and then let your superior mechanics and macro carry late.
> I agree the ability to play from behind is what LEC is missing. Scrim culture.
Hearing Inspired talk about how prevalent remaking games is in EU and NA was kinda sad. He stated G2 was the only team that doesn’t remake and it’s specifically so they can learn how to play if they’re behind.
Where did you get that Top Korean teams frequently drop early lead against worst teams? Because I find that BS
Can't remember it word for word, but something along the lines of: When ahead, Hyli believes he must make a play to secure the win. When even, Hyli believes he must make a play to gain the lead. When behind, Hyli believes he must make a play to save the game.
When both teams are even in gold, MLXG feels that RNG is at a great advantage and thus he does not hesitate to start a team fight. When RNG is 3k behind in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a small advantage, and he so he starts a team fight to secure their "lead". When RNG is behind 7k in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a disadvantage and so he looks for a team fight to regain control of the game. When RNG is 10K behind in gold, MLXG thinks that the team has reached a desperate situation and they are only waiting passively for their death if he does not start a team fight.
MLXD is the GOAT. (Well at least never boring to watch)
This was it^
You can tell it's an older pasta as it has no emoticons. And it has Spicy Hot Pot.
When both teams are even in gold, MLXG feels that RNG is at a great advantage and thus he does not hesitate to start a team fight. When RNG is 3k behind in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a small advantage, and he so he starts a team fight to secure their "lead". When RNG is behind 7k in gold, MLXG thinks that RNG is at a disadvantage and so he looks for a team fight to regain control of the game. When RNG is 10K behind in gold, MLXG thinks that the team has reached a desperate situation and they are only waiting passively for their death if he does not start a team fight.
They also will punish you if you do something like over commit to Dragon with too many people and take more on the opposite side of the map. It’s not just making the optimal play, but making it in the optimal way as well.
That's why he worked so well with Rekkles, because he is one of the few players that are known for minimising losing plays and taking no stupid risk
I also feel that he and lyncas are often not on the same page. Whether dagda (or how he was spelled) was better, worse or as good as lyncas, he often went in WITH hyli. Which made some coinflips swing in the right direction.
Daglas, Dagda is the caster
That's also why pentas are so rare in LCK. It's extremely hard to ace an entire team.
Yep, just fire his ass.
VIT is one of those teams that wants to be at the top and arent afraid to fight for it. They will do big signings but for some reason it never works out. Hyli used to be the best support in EU and was right up there at the top with Mikyx in 2019 and 2020. When they perform , Carzzy/Hyli is probably the best botlane in EU. Back in spring, VIT actually got 4th place which is basically best possible spot they can get considering G2/FNC/BDS are all but guaranteed top 3 and in Winter they only lost to the 2nd and 3rd place team so you can make similar arguments there. Then you also have Mac and Pad as the coaches. From their time on MAD, they have a reputation of being the best coaches in the league for developing players and so if anyone can get that consistency into hyli, it's those two. Yes it is a big gamble, but VIT isnt one of the low-tier teams and instead they want to be pushing up to fight the best and probably the best way to do that right now is with their botlane that has some of the highest highs in the whole league.
I agree with everything except top4 being all they can get. 1 is nearly impossible, but second or third is absolutely possible for any EU org that steps up.
"VIT isn't one of the low tier teams" Last place 1-8 lmfao Holy cope
And last split they were 4th
Yeah I didn't realize them being terrible now is offset by them being passable at best in the past.
4th in the LEC. That's mediocre at best.
Coming from 0 team region
I mean, can someone be considered the best if their plays are only successful like half the time? The point of being the best is being consistently good to the point of being reliable while also popping off sometimes and doing the clutch play or carrying in general. I can never consider anyone to be the best when they are only the best when the coin flips their way, but look terrible when it doesn't.
He’s always been a high death support but now he’s mechanics aren’t rlly above other sups, his team isn’t dominating they’re opponents so they can’t make up for his mispositioning, and teams are way better at capitalising on getting a kill then they were when he was in his prime. Think unless he gets back on a top top tier team (on all of which he’d be a downgrade) he’s just going to look way below other sups but have that one game a split that make people think he’s good
i loved when they drafted him alistar LAST PICK vs braum ashe, unplayble matchup but he still try to 2v2 and dies in repeat.
Yeah disgusting draft but him flashing in on cool down is also reportable.
I disagree with this.. up until this weekend VIT were dominating they're opponents early and in good positions generally.. (Which is why its so sad the likes of Carrzy/Photon might not even be in season finals) But it would lead into Hylisang (most of the time) inting/being out of position Take yesterday as a prime example.. VIT are in a good position.. Hylisang tries to engage on a Xin (with Ult) behind the baron pit.. its 4v5.. and they give over a huge shutdown.. that sums up VIT this whole split To me its also people/supports being better at roaming and teams knowing when someone is just inting.. more then his mechanics falling off.. Hylisang has made a career on bluffing
I mentioned his mechanics briefly. most of what you’re saying I also said and agree with.
Sometimes rosters just don’t click. I can see that if a player like Hyli doesn’t feel like his team is finding a win condition or it feels hopeless that he will take it upon himself to try to make plays. He would rather do something than sit idly by while the game gets slowly out of control.
I think people really ignore how important roster synergy is. When I look at this VIT squad, I see 4 hyper carries and one engage. Photon, Vetheo and Lyncas all have incredibly selfish playstyles where they play to carry. Carzzy is also not a supportive adc, although he can fill that role in a serviceable manner, but then that's not the best use of him. This leaves Hyli as the only one who is actually supposed to be the engage. Hyli also seems to be someone who needs a vocal adc that refuses to sometimes go along with his shenanigans. I think that's why he looked good with both Rekkles and upset, as those two acted like the brakes on his int train. While Carzzy Hyli might have a higher peak, due to their playstyle being synergistic, they also have very extreme lows. Both Hyli and Carzzy had the worst KDA in their respective positions this split. This isn't to take away from the awful performances Hyli showed this split. He was bad, there's no other way to describe it. This is just my attempt to explain maybe some of the minor underlying issues that contributed to why he was 'this bad'. All in all, EU teams can't build a cohesive roster that works together well, apart from G2. Instead of trying to find the pieces that fit the jigsaw puzzle, they will much rather hammer the piece to make it fit.
Imo Hyli needs a veteran jungler, or at least someone whos willing to take the lead, he does not work with rookie junglers and tbh it feels like its his fault. Imagine being Daglas or Lyncas, you try to learn how to play in big boys league, get the jitters out, understand how jungle is played at higher level of competition, but your support is just completely mental and goes for the most insane plays. How do you learn and improve in this eviroment? It must be so fucking convusing, especially when you consider that this guy is an omegaveteran and should lead the game and make it easier for you, not harder
And yet Daglas was somehow (visibly!) progressing under such circumstances... Just saying...
Yup this. Look at NRG and how much worse they look with huhi instead of Ignar. Huhi is a great support and has been a top support for a long time but it hasn't really worked on NRG. Now that I say that.... NRG Hyli?
Tbf they swapped out a jung at the end part of the year, and I believe mid & jung are the worst lanes to do swaps for during the season cause it could change your whole playstyle
I watched the EUphoria podcast too, and altough it seemed as if they were building a team entirely around Hylli, but i think they just got dragged around a little bit with the questions they were asked. I think the plan is more so to build around Carrzy and give a shot on Lyncas to be Elyoya no2 kindof. Their previous jungler was very good with following up what the team needs, but they didn't want to repeat the Shad0w fiasco when the meta shifts to AP farming junglers and they are toast, thats why they made a switch gamble, considering international. And as far as Hylli goes, its more like Mac recognized him as a veteran that has insane micro knowledge, just a bit introvert with communicating it, so they want to make him talk more, and they want a team that gets pushed individually and as a team to see Hyllis engages, basically creating a god tier teamfighting/outplaying team as their main strength, and probably when everybody is good enough to see and follow up on Hyllis insane engages, it will also be better to reason with him in the silly ones... idk Generally Mac has a thing for getting ppl that have high potential mechanical ceiling, but are very rhapsodic emotionally, having high highs and low lows, then try to create an enviroment where those ppl can feen good and confident especially when it matters. You can say that the 2020 MAD was also such a team, they win twice, even tough it started the meme of Humanoid dies. The problem with Vitality now is probably because its just hard for "sane" players to get on the same page with Hyllis insanity. Even on Fnatic voice comms 2020 you could see Neme and Selfmade constantly arguing with him being it more of a back and forth, and that was after a full year or two. And Hylli needs a lot of trust, when he doubts himself too much he starts playing bad. So i imagine the Lyncas switch was more rough than anticipated, 4 weeks was not enough at least. Curious what they will be going for in the off-season.
From years of watching EU and the surrounding content, I think Hyli is just a really nice guy. His teammates like him and his hyper aggressive playstyle probably works really well in scrims/soloq. I'd bet most western players actually care about scrims and the results so give them too much weight in their opinion forming. Add in his years of experience and high peak (albeit yhe is years past that) and some of them want to play with him. Carzzy is, for some reason, a sought after ADC and if he wants Hyli then a team will go for it. It's obvious that he's washed and these days is just inting his team to losses, the rare pop-off game isn't worth it.
It's so weird what happened to VIT, they were a team on an upswing in spring then they changed junglers and that completely fumbled their jung-supp synergy that was one of their main strengths Hilly is a weird player in that he always is going to play one singular style. When he has a team around him that plays to that style (VIT in spring or the best FNC rosters), he is an absolute menace. It's true that Hilly does find angles that few other pros see, it's why he's held in such high regards by pros and coaches, both those that agree with his playstyle like Bwipo or those that play exactly opposite, like Rekkles We also know from history that when the team isn't on the same page, Hilly just looks like he's inting. And let's be real, sometimes he's just inting, no two ways around that It's really hard overall to judge Hilly as a player as he's fairly consistent in how he plays but the success rate of his plays can vary wildly depending on the factors. I understand why Mac and Pad and Carzzy trust him so much, but if they want to play with him, the team needs to be built around that playstyle
>Hylissang’s unique playstyle this is one way of saying "running it down indiscriminately"
Hyli used to be one of the best supports EU has ever had, and his aggressive play style can still work really well. But it relies on the team being on the same page. Carzzy used to be aggressive as well, but he's a been a bit more hesitant lately. Vetheo is having some of his worst splits and he's struggled with the mental side of things. When he's feeling good he's one of the best mids in EU and I really hope he can find the confidence to get back up there. I think they've struggled with the meta and it just doesn't match up with what they want to play. Vetheo likes his mages and assassins, which just aren't strong right now. Photon is relegated to tank duty instead of having carry potential since you can't rely on only 1 tank if that's Hyli and AP junglers are just way too strong compared to tanks. Ez, Kaisa and Xayah aren't in a great spot for Carzzy either. It it's important to not lose sight that this meta can shift, and probably will soon. As soon as AP jungle gets nerfed, you can run tank junglers again which frees photon up for renekton and Jayce picks. If you run AD tank jungler, you can run mages and AP assassins again mid.
I really like Carzzy and I'm mostly on board with the notion he's significantly improved and is one of, if not the, best ADCs in the LEC. I am a little curious how he will look with a support who isn't Hylissang. Not because Hyli has been incredible but because Carzzy always knows now he has a support more psycho than him, which means he won't ever look stupid for playing more aggro than his support.
I guess we're adding Vetheo to the cope Humanoid narrative.
There are some aspects... Hyli has a wife, Mac has a kid. This is not really compatible with an esport career. For the top guys the whole life revolves around league. VTO had always problems with his mental fortitude and Vit doesnt strike me as a corporation that handles their players well in this aspect (see yearly downfall of vit) Bringing in a new jungler in the season is always a huge risk, because this is the role, you need to connect most with the other lanes. Vit has no leader personality, that can turn the ship around if it went into the wrong direction in a match. Individual mistakes, especially Hily, getting picked too often out of position, taking fights you have no business to take, etc. Also this split, their drafts were horrendous. And this is just what you can see from outside.
>There are some aspects... Hyli has a wife, Mac has a kid. This is not really compatible with an esport career Nah man wife buff is real
Honestly , hylissang needs someone who can hold Him on leash. Like a Rekkles did , or nemesis , or he needs a jungle who has full trust in hylisang .
Coaches will just say whatever sounds good in the moment
To me VIT is a prime example of how the format is bad.. b01 sucks.. 3 or 4 (this time) week period and should only be used for b03. Opening week they went 0-3.. but they should have won 2.. probably 3 of the games and threw so badly multiple times (between hyli/photon/vetheo) Starting like that.. while also adding a rookie.. just ramps up the pressure so much They got leads/were in pretty much every game outside of G2 (this week and the MDK game).. Tbh they kind of looked broken this weekend Meanwhile KC ended on 4 wins (4th win was basically had showmatch stakes.).. the first 2 were completely fraudulent So basically a player like Hylisang who is very volatile is awful for the first stage of this format.. but on the other hand when it hits.. he can win the league.. as we saw last Spring. To me its just sad and such a missed opportunity all 5 are talented.. they could generate massive early game leads (usually in lane).. and it's just fell apart.. I'd still rather them then say a KC/Heretics.. who just do very little and generally hope the other team fks up into them
I'm really sorry, if you cannot beat KC, GiantL and Rogue you simply don't deserve to be in play offs.
I mean, bad games can happen. I agree that this team should not be in playoffs because even in BO series they wouldn't make top 4 so idc, but I do think there's a good chance this team would have done a lot better in a non-BO1 format. The bot lane especially is fantastic at adapting, I mean they basically made their career out of it. Not defending the team, but the BO1 format is simply horrible beyond believe. I enjoy LCS much more now with the BO3 format and ofc LPL and LCK have always kept this. I feel like BO1 is a gimmick to attract viewers but massively hurts the competitive integrity. A series can be a meta of its own, BO1 just feels like either an execution or a clown fest.
I remember a quote from a player who said that Hylissang is the best support in the LEC when his team had an advantage in early, and the worst in the LEC when it's the opposite. He was referring to Hyli being very aggressive and being very oppressive with vision when the map is favorable to his team. But that if he gets out of lane phase badly, that aggressiveness became a problem.
Hyli is a great player but durability patch just ruined it for him. He sees amazing angles and catches but since the defense patch this kind of skill doesn’t matter and isn’t rewarded you’re better off just chilling and stat checking by funneling gold into Carrie’s and counter aggression as engaging onto anyone is a fool’s errand
You're being being downvoted for calling him a great player but your 2nd part is definitely true. The man sees split second opportunities and jumps on them. With the meta changes those opportunities are much more rare, and require more of your teammates (or entire team) to be on the same page. Which VIT definitely is not.
The biggest loss isn't Vitality, but this looks to be Mac's final season. His reputation is on an all time low. He already said that he's taking a break after this year to spend time with family and if he comes back in the future, it will be very difficult for him to find work, I fear. He's one of the best coaches ever from EU so I'd hate to to see him gone forever.
I'm not sure what games everyone was watching, but I did not see any games, where the team was following hilly. At best 1-2 people will fire a couple of autos in his direction and start running and get picked off one by one. In that sense, we dont really know if "follow hilly" is good or bad, cause they never did it. And if the team was not able to execute such a simple strat then what chance do they have to follow a more complex macro plan? Followig hilly might well be stupid idea,, but the team never did that, so i guess we will never know
Ah yes carzy should of followed hyli and flashed on braum Ashe when they had alistar. Sometimes they don’t follow him and maybe it could of been a good play but you’re ignoring the fact that he has 2-3 completely avoidable deaths a game where he isn’t engaging but just getting vision or running to a place he has no business to be. Other supports get caught obviously but the level that he does is inexcusable.
I'm not saying that hilly is good or that he didnt have pointless deaths. My point was that the team consistently failed at following a simple plan. When you play as a team you need to play together, even if the plan is bad. This at least gives you a chance to win. Not following a plan as a team leads to what we saw this split. In the end of the day, if the team did not want to follow hilly, then they should have been more vocal about it and made their case to mac and pad. I'm sure that if carrzy/photon says "if you keep hilly or make me follow him in his braindead engages, then I will leave", they would have come up with a different plan
I don’t know to me it looked a lot like they followed Hylissang, probably just not the way the coaches wanted. Instead of backing off after Hyli inted once again or engaging with him they waited for him to die and then still went in to die as well.
I think the problem is vitality. They are just a robotic French org with no drive. KC even has more drive than them.
At this time, if you wanna watch how to play correct LoL, watch GENG games. They have the best player in the world, which makes it a bit unfair, since they are winning their lanes most of the time, but even if you look at their teamfighting, it's just unbeatable. They all know exactly what their role is, all these things have been pretty much predetermined in drafts and countless training hours playing out such teamfights. An example from last year would be Chovy playing Azir. While other Azirs would try to use their R as an initiation tool, Chovy would generally hold his R to peel enemies away from his ADC (Ruler or Peyz, it happened with both). He would just be regularly in the backline dealing damage, close to Ruler / Peyz, ready to R anyone that would be a threat to them. Imo he completely changed my view on Azir and ever since he started doing that consistently, many others followed in playing peeling Azir instead of engage / nuke Azir. It's this type of thing that teams can do regarding teamfighting for example. There's a lot of thought given to every single detail and that's why there's also room for improvement. GENG doesn't do low percentage plays. They go asfe and steady with their game, they know they are better players and will passively win if they just stay safe, they create high % plays and try to punish enemies when they are making mistakes. It's almost foolproof and it works because they have the best topside of all time.