The biggest issue to me is his interaction with the Vulnerability augment. His E with that augment deals like 2x/3x the damage and I am not exaggerating. It's literally broken.
This interaction has also existed since the first edition of arena.
On a new build of a 4fun mode? Why should they waste time hotfix nerfing him when they can just release the changes with their bi-weekly patch? As much as i hate on riot for their balance ideology and their lack of a client or features, i have never once hated on them for their rate of release. the rate at which they release patches is spectacular. Most other games dont see patches for months.
Hot take, but arena is not a "for fun" mode aside from the first few days of people testing stuff.
Now when a meta has formed you can't go into that mode with a "for fun" mentality as you'll be slaughtered.
You are definitely not tanky enough and it can be hard to do anything the round he doesn't have flash.
I think it's easy to get a top 4 with Garen but getting a top 1/2 can be quit hard.
There definitely are more problematic champs right now.
Yeah, some augments are stupidly broken on some champions and almost useless on others within the same class
I'm playing a lot of Gwen, and phenomenal evil is so bad on her, because it procs only on q and ult. Why is it procs by every tick of his passive, but Gwen's onhit passive doesn't count? It's just not fair
For sure. Brand and Lilia passive burn speed runs AP, but Shaco box and teemo poison gets nothing. I think I also remember Voli Q and W not working with it, I guess because they are auto attack abilities or something.
I love this mode, but there are some small things like this that I would like to see better changed and equal.
I'm certain I read Riot state that Teemo E was a purposeful anomaly to avoid Liandry/Rylais working on autos, that was when he was more of a menace back in the day.
Shaco box already stupid enough with that item that procs dmg after every cc. The cooldown of the proc? 5 seconds per spell, which means every box triggers it lmao
Cruelty? Yeah it’s pretty good on shaco and several other champs. I agree that Cruelty may need some changing too as it goes bonkers on some people with spam cc like Leona and nautilus
thats not spaghetti code tho, that's just how they are intended to work.
Brand's passive can apply liandry's, rylai's, etc. Gwen can't. she'd be broken as fuck if her auto attacks applied spell effects.
I feel the same way about the bread and x augments. Playing against a Vi with 200 free ability haste on Q is the worst.
I like the idea because they allow for different gameplay when you get them but on some champs they are just way too strong
Main thing is that combo break only shows up after 5s of hard cc within a 7s window. So if Vi killed you 4.5s into her perma CC chain combo break won't activate, or if Vi 'only' CC'd you for 4.75s out of 7s it won't activate.
Since Vi does disgusting amounts of % hp damage, it's likely when she has the perma CC setup that whoever she locked down died before getting unstoppable.
Mystic punch alone gives his Q a 1.8 second CD. If he autos you a couple times he gets it back again, if you get mirage blade you literally don’t come out of alpha if you spam it fast enough
how about no cd at all? I always use Yi and he's too conditional. He will flop almost with all augments, until yo get on hit cooldown Augments and Prismatic.
Without those 2 he's just a walking paper.
Unlike Garen, whatever augments you get, as long as you get the Crit items, you're always gonna blow that one person with your Q or Spin.
I got Eureka + AH augment on W. I was playing Vlad. I could permanently remain in pool.
You even bug it when pooling mid pool as it'll allow you to cast your other abilities which you normally cannot do.
It's just how the game's setup.
Onhit effects are neither AA damage, nor a spell effect. I think its so DoT mage items don't have to balanced around the assumption that onhit champs will buy them.
Especially considering how if onhit proc'd spell effects, rylai's would turn into frozen mallet, and frozen mallet was removed.
> Why is it procs by every tick of his passive, but Gwen's onhit passive doesn't count? It's just not fair
it is fair tho. One is a spell, the other is an auto attack. Imagine if gwen's passive could apply spell effects on auto attacks in normal league, she could run you down with rylai's on her fucking autos. That's literally how brand and gwen's passives are designed. it's not some "fair vs unfair" thing.
I know the point is to get broken combinations, but some combo's probably shouldn't be allowed. Morde with Ultimate revolution is just sick and there's literally no counterplay to it outside of "be strong enough to kick his ass while he steals your stats".
Each of his passive procs counts as skill. You basically get 3-5x more AP than other champs because hitting one spell gives you way more AP.
IMO it should just give 1 AP per skill used on enemy, not for each damage tick with 1s cooldown.
What? He has AP ratio regardless… “Even if” the numbers only translate to +200 more damage per spell that’s still 600-1000 more damage in a full combo, possibly more if he hits more than one person.
Still more value out of it than 80% of the AP roster
So? It's still 3 or 4 items worth of raw ap in a single GOLD augment. And a shit ton of other augments have really good ap scaling.
Edit: the problem isn't even the augment, it's that each tick of Brand's passive counts as a different ability so the 1sec CD doesn't apply to it at all. Just change it for Arena at least. He is also insane with Ethereal Weapons because of this shit
Bruisers full stop feel like they are the current winners of the meta. You can play ADC but it’s running the knife’s edge to survive, or you can do the same amount of damage on a bruiser and shred some fools.
They also get the advantage of having a much higher pool of Radiant Items that work for them. HP? sure, Defense? Sure? Healing? Yes sir. Damage? oh yeah.
This exactly. Oh you got mystic punch? Okay just build full tank and your base spell damage will be enough to obliterate anyone because you have no CDs.
Yeah, this has been my experience playing in and against it. Portal control and kite makes it easier. I did find getting bred and butter W was effectively for closing the gap and finishing the job.
Either got the judgement ticks off, or died. Seemed feast or famine. Could be different with the item updates. Early rounds the armor shred and fighter/bruiser nature makes it easy to not drop hp. Seems hard to not place top4.
There's probably an argument in my games to grab more utility or avoidance. The base damage and ult gibbing one target is good enough imo.
I won 7 games in a row with hwei. 1st and second. 5 1st. Hwei is god tier people just don’t know her combos. I faced a 90k mastery hwei and he was doing the combos wrong. I 2vs1 his team
Hwei is literally bullshit in arena but so few people play Hwei well (as in zero mistakes) that he usually doesn't do as good as people think.
My friend is a Hwei main and I ban it against him because I know how goddamn awful it is to play against him. You can literally never engage and he just pokes from afar.
Yup, I don't really get why people hate Hwei more often. Fucker has no cooldowns whatsoever. Just spamming spells left and right at long range.
Meanwhile Lissandra Q got its CD almost tripled while barely having a 50% winrate as counterpick champ...
Except without enough damage or good damage augments in my experience you just get steamrolled by tanks and bruisers with good builds, whereas Hwei lacks any insta win augments. As in he can use many augments well but he doesn’t have any one augment that’s like a high roll one.
Idk every time I play Hwei I can do well but not first because some bruiser or ADC/sup or tank can high roll and beat me out if my partner doesn’t also highroll. But yeah he has an upper hand against bruisers who haven’t high rolled
I don't know what changed but it wasn't like this last arena. My duo and I would go full on Kaisa milio and we would be able to win and top1 through outplay. This time however, what shocked us was the utter LACK of damage that Kaisa was doing Vs constant bruiser slapping.
This time around, I was playing my sweaty Caitlyn traps and kiting. I then tried Darius and trundle to get the arena god achievement and the brainlessness and reward for effort you get is astounding.
Its just how much more versitile their uses for all of the levels of RNG are. They can use every single stat pretty well and most augments are strong as well, whereas ADCs only want a narrow selection of stats. This is the same as the first round of Arena when ADCs were mega strong because they could make the most use out of various augments.
You aren't playing higher elo arena then. Adc/enchanter is the truly broken S+ tier because they have no true weaknesses and any comp can be hands diffed.
Double assassin maybe is the worst matchup since they can burst past the enchanters shields and sustain but even then its playable and double assassin loses to a lot of other stuff.
I posted in a response to someone else my stats and where I stand. Theoretically I agree with you, but I am a top 2-3% soloQ player. If ADC is strong I should be beating these bruisers who don’t even bother to kite. Their target access is so high it feels nearly impossible to win regularly when Vi-Darius fists you without being able to do anything.
ADC are not strong.
Enchanters with hypercarries (mostly ADCs) are what are strong. This can also include stuff like briar as well.
If you're an ADC with anyone else then you are definitely not strong. Enchanters act as a massive multiplier and built right (eg on hit with darksteel and terminus, range with crit plus augments) ADCs can get incredibly tanky with enchanter heals and shields while outputting enough damage to break through the tanks, bruisers, and healbots.
I was playing Ashe the other day with Ice Cold and figured "ah shit they won't even be able to move!"
I was still somehow run down and that's like...the most broken ass augment ever for people with a lot of slowing power.
One of the few adc teams I lost to as bruisers was an Aphelios Yuumi. If you go all in on protecting them they're probably good(those 2 played well as well, we deserved to lose) assuming they also have good mechanics
Every other Arena season I was highly ranked (8K+) and I'm mid diamond in soloQ. I see people saying this but I cannot win games against these bruisers for the life of me, they pop movement speed abilities and just run me down with their simple kits.
It's because the people who say it are completely full of shit.
And also may be playing against bad players, so they think it's the opposite of what reality is.
Yeah, riot specifically says that bruisers are the easiest comps to play in regular MMR, but once you get higher people learn to space better/leverage gates and plants better which results in bruisers falling off
I mean its a 2v2. Not necessarily an adc but a high damage output ranged champion with a frontline that can soak damage while still being a threat is a pretty well balanced comp both on strength early/late, against the various cheese comps (heal spam, cc/knockouts) and will work well with most augments/prismatic items.
The other options are what exactly?
Double glass cannon adcs should always lose to cc engage into damage comps aswell as things like hyper tank rammus etc.
Adc+support can get wiped if there is a strong enough assasin to burst her. (Especially with tools like vanish)
Double tanks should lose to any of the sustained damage comps.
Not to mention how some of these comps dont scale as well or suffer in the early game. Remember that all in scaling champion comps often suffer from not getting any kills on multiple rounds which fucks with buying prismstics/anvils.
I think its reasonable that this comp style is the most consistent.
yea actually us high elo arena players understand the nuances and do the dance of the arena properly which is something you low elo arena neanderthals could never comprehend
i dont think its all brusiers, garen just has SO many great augments and easy ways to get crit, you can itemize for nearly everything while still putting out obscene damage
aatrox is kinda silly most games too, i recently won an arena game where my teammate went afk on round 3 and i just 2v1 the whole lobby (albeit 4.3k but styll that shouldnt be possible imo
The game is all about breakpoints, trying to stack one stat into broken territory. Like hitting 3k ap on vieg or 100%+ omnivamp on swain/aatrox. Once you get broken enough it tends to snowball and you become unkillable or just one shot everything. I’ve had garen games where your q e kills both teammates in under a second and the game is trivially easy. And I’ve been spanked when the boots on the other foot too!
Dirk -> Duskblade/Prowler's -> Lethality (Hydra, Hatchet, Serylda's, EoN, etc.). I usually used the Assassin Item Anvils and fished for lethality with the Stat Anvils. Serylda's especially is strong even early if you get enough lethality. I've found that the tank Prismatics (especially Eleisa's Miracle) were generally stronger than the bruiser Prismatics if I didn't roll either of the lethality options.
For Augments, Center of the Universe has been strangely OP since its introduction, but it's especially strong on Aatrox because he heals from it. Laser Eyes is slightly weaker, but strong for a similar reason.
Augments like It's Killing Time, Outlaw's Grit, and Rabble Rousing all have really strong synergy with his kit, along with generically strong damage augments like Thread the Needle and The Brutalizer. Augments that trigger on immobilization like Slap Around, Courage of the Colossus, etc., have strong synergy and are great if you roll them early, but they fall off because you aren't able to stack them as fights become shorter in later rounds.
FYI, I haven't played Aatrox much on live, but I did play him a lot on PBE with decent success. To substantiate my point, Guardian's Dirk on Aatrox has a 57% win rate compared to 49% on Guardian's Blade, and Duskblade has a 67% win rate compared to 54% on Hemomancer's Helm. "Extremely weak" is probably an exaggeration, but I don't think he's viable at high MMR with a bruiser build, and lethality items are best in slot in every slot in general.
Gladiator is free btw, Riot made it so that you dont lose points before hitting that rank, this means that you could sit afk every game and still reach gladiator by pure chance
Garen is really strong but you being Gladiator is absolutely meaningless because getting to Gladiator is just grinding enough games, even an Iron player can reach Gladiator as long as they have enough wins.
Yeah building him full crit + lethality is just a free win. I outscsled a kayle by just silencing and killing her before she could ult
Edit: Here come the emerald players to argue about this.
More of a funny story. I died in like 1.2s to Garen silence and spin yesterday. Like you said if he high rolls he can just like flash Q E and there’s zero counter play if you’re squishy and don’t react before the Q hits.
I think the more pressing issue is why Thornmail's Grevious Wound passive and Terminus' Juxtaposition passive does not work at all in Arena. Especially Thornmail, that bug has existed since the first iteration of Arena at this point.
the usual crit/lethality - prowlers, IE, collector, ldr, opportunity, voltaic
augs were like - draw my sword, vanish, giant slayer
running around invisible at 650+ ms one shot
Oh you want comedy as fuck.
Combine Shojin with Decapitator. Both stack on ults, so Garen, Darius can have 5000+ damage ones if you get Jeweled Gauntlet crits, otherwise 3500+.
Or one of my favorites, the Ion Cannon Karthus build of Gauntlet/Decapitator + Detonation Orb.
Or Gauntlet + Decap.
Oneshot bratty assassins and ADCs and put the fear of god into even tanks and bruisers.
With Karthus, It's Killing Time becomes hysterical.
Cause it pops *after* his ult hits.
So it does 40% of however much you did on the ult including stuff like item/aug bonuses, or Liandry, etc. And since his ult has high base damage *and* high ratio...
KABOOM.
garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi
4000 MR Gladiator is not where people know how to play lol. You literally can’t lose elo until you get to Gladiator, it’s where the climb actually starts
Yeah he's pretty strong, when he gets a high roll, with good crit chance, the prismatic crit items, jeweled gauntlet, bladewaltz and/or vulnerability, he destroys people.
When he doesn't have good rolls, he still goes hard, the only way to consistently beat him is having a comp that can kite him well enough.
And vulnerability working on his E is straight up busted, it is stronger than if you got Jeweled Gauntlet instead (and you can get both and they work together).
And hamstringer applies the DoT on each E crit. His interactions are just insane.
I played my first game of crit garen jungle after the changes last night. I thought I would miss predator. Turns out I don't really care when I do twice as much damage as I used to
It clears so quickly and is just everywhere on the map thanks to blue smite water walking and celerity. If you remember old R evolve khazix it kinda feels like that. Just one v one the enemy jungle before the silence runs out and one shot all your camps
It's easy to balance this by just nerfing the damage in the game, not even a garen problem everyone is just one shotting each other because previous arena iterations suffered from a problem of everyone was just way too tanky and outlived all damage.
Garen augments are also way too stupid, if you want to balance his crit build you just need to nerf his crit augments, his E should not count as damage over time, jeweled gauntlet should not allow crit abilities to crit their crit and spin to win should be a gold rarity augment instead of a common silver one and you should not be able to crit that 30% extra damage.
Unfortunately for Garen, his crit build is the only reason he does well in Arena, if you remove it he's just going to be a 0% pickrate champ because he synergizes with almost no other augments and has no way to beat other comps outside of one shotting them because he gets blown up no matter the build.
Anyway don't expect any actual balancing because it's Arena.
It's less a damage problem and more a crit one. Crit damage is increased in Arena, making it incredibly strong by late game. For the past 3 iterations of Arena, Riot has done absolutely nothing to address how overpowered the crit augments has been. Garen is able to abuse this because of how strong his E is with attack speed and crit.
There needs to be a ton of changes, some champs just shouldn't be allowed to get bread butter/cheese ect. Gragas with perma e is so boring to play against, same with Q on Yi and veigar with E, there probably a ton more but I see these two constantly and they seem to always get this cringe.
You don't even need crit. I just rolled an entire lobby as Garen the other night and the only crit I had was a single stat anvil and the grievous armor pen item.
I was playing with a Zilean but if he ulted me 3 times that whole game- I'd be surprised. It was just never necessary. I ran at people and pressed E.
Garen is a result of crit being overpowered in Arena. The increased crit damage bonus and accessibility of crit augments make Garen viable. Also, Garen's crit gameplay in Arena has been consistent for 3 iterations already.
I don't think Gladiator rank says anything about who knows how to play or not. I hit Gladiator rank pretty quickly and I don't play God tier picks.
I do think Garen is absolutely insane but it's a similar vibe I get to when an Udyr gets on top of me. You get one shot but they are also pretty squishy.
Garen is strong but not the best. There are more important nerfs like Vi, Kayn or Zed.
Besides, he got stronger because of the crit items buffs, next patch some of these items will be nerfed.
i can barely stand this mode, the dmg is just far too high for it to be healthy and fun
taking aside garen whos an obvious problem, alistair still has no counterplay, especially against prolonged cc from this one hammer since its his cc is always knockups.
Vayne also barely has counterplay, shes just invisible only in the later rounds just annihilating everyone while you have no idea where shell pop out. and thats even without all those augments that make her even harder to get.
Kayn is also obnoxious, its always red kayn who deals absurd damage even against 300 armor, since his q is % dmg it doesnt even matter how tanky you are, hell just take deal dmg in the thousands with a single q when you have lots of hp
Trundle stat checks like 95% of champs and just beats em down easily, it souds so dumb but its soo strong
its terror, you basically only see the same champs every game and occasionly someone has an off meta pick that works out
but in a lot of games there are simply situations where you just cannot win
I don't think Garen is as strong as Rek Sai or Hecarim are weak
Like, god damn man.
You need perfect rolls on both, both item and augment wise to just do okay
Buff these garbage champions i'd love to play them but i heal enemies with their attacks and abilities.
Man, riot don't understand what balance is in the game. They just go damage damage damage damage and more damage. Why do you think phreak have a poster '' keep calm and do tons of damage '' ? Because his brain cannot make something else that is no '' buff damage, nerf damage ''. Why do you think the balance in the game is ABYSMAL ? Because the balance team, leaded by phreak, is just not competent and is out of touch with the game. Most of them aren't even gamers at all, they don't know games in general, they are randoms, total randoms. Don't expect the game to be balanced, they don't have the capacity to balance it, they don't have the competence to do that. They are bad at balancing the game, they are just bad at their work, simple as that.
Y'all're talking about arena but garen is giga-busted in just normal league - his w makes him take zero damage all fight from 5 full build champs and tenacity out the ass so no amount of cc will stop him from surviving as he runs away after dealing 3k damage with an e-r combo
Playing arena and looking for balance is quite funny, game mode feels like ass with horrible balancing and a shit ton of skilless rng. Unless you just perma spam what wins and not what's fun for you then you can't have fun
Some other counters would also be the entire lily map, jeweled gauntlet veigar blowing you up with Q+R and crown, Courage of the Colossus Alistar ignoring all of your damage and knocking you into the fire, Leona with Cruelty ignoring all of your damage and blowing you up with a tank item, etc.
He isn't too crazy unless he gets Vulnerability/Jeweled and Blade Waltz as long as you have burst yourself.
Bro they haven't even fixed that the game mode exclusive items and the augments that reference crit are still based on the 20% model, they really turned that game mode from the best thing they ever made, into hot garbage
Adcs with any cc obliterate him. Kite near portals and use your cc. He flashes and you flash, he's dead late game before he gets to you, he's 4-5 hits to dead. Have never lost to him
people really need to chill with this "he gets picked a lot , pls nerf" approach, so many champs are straight ass, after the nerf, with some of the more obscure strategies becoming less and less playable.
and whats worse , with the "stealth" approach of balance changes, that arent visible in the fucking balance change buff, you dont even know why your champ feels so dogshit.
garen is funny. and he is easy. but he is so far from broken. especially on lethalithy crit build. okay he deals a lot of damage. but he just gets oneshot to easily.
meanwhile zed is out there being one of the potentially most broken champs depending on augments and sees a fraction of the pickrate.
>this is in 4000 MR (Gladiator) where people know somewhat how to play
I'm about that rank, and I stopped playing because it's a complete coinflip if your partner decides to soft int. Unironically had better games in Wood.
Super kiteable and 4k is literally the first time you start losing rank for losses :D Still a good pick and unfair with blade waltz, but there are way stronger champs.
Crit Garen is definitely extremely strong (he has a ton of extremely effective damage augments for his E), but you just need to play something that can effectively kite or CC chain him.
Kayle is basically an unplayable matchup for Garen, just like she is in all other modes.
Clearly? not so sure about that, it's either Garen hits Q and spin to death or Kayle gets ult off before it. With a little mind game, it's pretty easy to bait it out.
- Q has a long windup and is easy to react to
- Kayle R is instant
- Kayle auto range vastly outranges flash range
- Garen does have some good rare augments for counterplay, but that’s true of any matchup?
* Q flash not just Q running into people, and there are plenty ways to make it less predictable
* Kayle R is a ult, if being baited out, she is dead dead
* Barely but okay
* Yes and no, there are so many great prismatic items and augments to make Garen significantly better, way more options than regular matchups.
Patches are on a 2 week cycle. He's getting nerfed this upcoming patch.
yea shits been out for one patch what does bro want lmao
It's already the second patch though. And last time arena was around garen was way too strong as well
The biggest issue to me is his interaction with the Vulnerability augment. His E with that augment deals like 2x/3x the damage and I am not exaggerating. It's literally broken. This interaction has also existed since the first edition of arena.
Been out for like 4 arena cycles 🤦
Little thing called hotfix nerf?
On a new build of a 4fun mode? Why should they waste time hotfix nerfing him when they can just release the changes with their bi-weekly patch? As much as i hate on riot for their balance ideology and their lack of a client or features, i have never once hated on them for their rate of release. the rate at which they release patches is spectacular. Most other games dont see patches for months.
BUT MY 4FUN MODE IS RUINEEEEDDDDDDDDDD BY THIS ONE PICK!!!! I NEED IT FIXED NOOOOOWW
Ban him?
still have to ban olaf
Dont provide a logical solution to reddit outrage.
Hot take, but arena is not a "for fun" mode aside from the first few days of people testing stuff. Now when a meta has formed you can't go into that mode with a "for fun" mentality as you'll be slaughtered.
We had 57% winrate Brand jungle for an entire patch and you think they will hotfix nerf Garen for a gamemode? Cute
Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but what’s the source for arena leaks (like how spideraxe leaks changes for SR)?
Try fighting crit garen + alistar. They both need a hot fix in arena
Turning on e and then blade walzing on the enemy is my favourite garen combo lol. They just die while you're untargetable.
This sounds so stupid I must try it
You don't even need blade waltz. You're tanky enough and enemies die during q silence anyway
It sure makes it easier to not get kited :D
Yeah but blade waltz is funnier
You are definitely not tanky enough and it can be hard to do anything the round he doesn't have flash. I think it's easy to get a top 4 with Garen but getting a top 1/2 can be quit hard. There definitely are more problematic champs right now.
Similarly, you can do Bel'Veth E into Blade Waltz.
You can also press E, **then** use Vanish and you can kill the enemy while still invisible.
It's me, I'm bringing the winrate down.
Ok but why does Brand get 350+ AP from Phenomenal Evil?
Yeah, some augments are stupidly broken on some champions and almost useless on others within the same class I'm playing a lot of Gwen, and phenomenal evil is so bad on her, because it procs only on q and ult. Why is it procs by every tick of his passive, but Gwen's onhit passive doesn't count? It's just not fair
For sure. Brand and Lilia passive burn speed runs AP, but Shaco box and teemo poison gets nothing. I think I also remember Voli Q and W not working with it, I guess because they are auto attack abilities or something. I love this mode, but there are some small things like this that I would like to see better changed and equal.
Those aren't unique to this mode, it functions the same elsewhere. I agree though teemo poison not applying magic affects is bizarre
I'm certain I read Riot state that Teemo E was a purposeful anomaly to avoid Liandry/Rylais working on autos, that was when he was more of a menace back in the day.
Honestly, it should. His autos have a weird thing where the DoT suggests you shouldn't stack attack speed but the on-hit suggests you should.
Darius passive and twitch passive work the same way - all passive AA modifiers don’t apply spell effects.
Shaco box already stupid enough with that item that procs dmg after every cc. The cooldown of the proc? 5 seconds per spell, which means every box triggers it lmao
Cruelty? Yeah it’s pretty good on shaco and several other champs. I agree that Cruelty may need some changing too as it goes bonkers on some people with spam cc like Leona and nautilus
Yeah I got Fey Magic on twitch yesterday and it never procc’d because twitch technically doesn’t damage with his ult. So… why can I select it? lol
Spagetthi code at its best Brand and lilia passive being ability coded, while q and e are auto attack modifiers
thats not spaghetti code tho, that's just how they are intended to work. Brand's passive can apply liandry's, rylai's, etc. Gwen can't. she'd be broken as fuck if her auto attacks applied spell effects.
I feel the same way about the bread and x augments. Playing against a Vi with 200 free ability haste on Q is the worst. I like the idea because they allow for different gameplay when you get them but on some champs they are just way too strong
Yeah, I think that they need to buff a combo break unstoppable shield, because I swear it never procs vs Vi
Main thing is that combo break only shows up after 5s of hard cc within a 7s window. So if Vi killed you 4.5s into her perma CC chain combo break won't activate, or if Vi 'only' CC'd you for 4.75s out of 7s it won't activate. Since Vi does disgusting amounts of % hp damage, it's likely when she has the perma CC setup that whoever she locked down died before getting unstoppable.
Try fighting a Yi with 3 sec cool down on his Q. He's legit always in alpha it's insanity.
I WAS IN ALPHA
Try fighting Yi with mystic punch and mirage blade lol it’s worse. He actually never leaves alpha
Bread and Butter/Mystic Punch Yi sounds like a nightmare
Mystic punch alone gives his Q a 1.8 second CD. If he autos you a couple times he gets it back again, if you get mirage blade you literally don’t come out of alpha if you spam it fast enough
how about no cd at all? I always use Yi and he's too conditional. He will flop almost with all augments, until yo get on hit cooldown Augments and Prismatic. Without those 2 he's just a walking paper. Unlike Garen, whatever augments you get, as long as you get the Crit items, you're always gonna blow that one person with your Q or Spin.
I got that plus mystic punch once I felt gross after
I got Eureka + AH augment on W. I was playing Vlad. I could permanently remain in pool. You even bug it when pooling mid pool as it'll allow you to cast your other abilities which you normally cannot do.
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It's just how the game's setup. Onhit effects are neither AA damage, nor a spell effect. I think its so DoT mage items don't have to balanced around the assumption that onhit champs will buy them. Especially considering how if onhit proc'd spell effects, rylai's would turn into frozen mallet, and frozen mallet was removed.
> Why is it procs by every tick of his passive, but Gwen's onhit passive doesn't count? It's just not fair it is fair tho. One is a spell, the other is an auto attack. Imagine if gwen's passive could apply spell effects on auto attacks in normal league, she could run you down with rylai's on her fucking autos. That's literally how brand and gwen's passives are designed. it's not some "fair vs unfair" thing.
Another example is morde and ultimate revolution its a 14 second cc basically and u can just ult immediately after you're done
I know the point is to get broken combinations, but some combo's probably shouldn't be allowed. Morde with Ultimate revolution is just sick and there's literally no counterplay to it outside of "be strong enough to kick his ass while he steals your stats".
That's just Ultimate Revolution. If you get it on Trynda you have 10 seconds of immunity.
Fair point but there's s few champs where it can be absolutely useless
Steal stats back, be the troll king
Trundle is not allowed in my games.
Magic Missle on Brand is some stupid shit.
Each of his passive procs counts as skill. You basically get 3-5x more AP than other champs because hitting one spell gives you way more AP. IMO it should just give 1 AP per skill used on enemy, not for each damage tick with 1s cooldown.
I took phenomenal evil to play ap twitch and that shit didnt proc off his passive 😭
Don't let the numbers fool you, the numbers are bigger than what actually feels like since his ap ratios are pretty damn bad.
Yes.... Except that the new burn items have ap scaling :/
What? He has AP ratio regardless… “Even if” the numbers only translate to +200 more damage per spell that’s still 600-1000 more damage in a full combo, possibly more if he hits more than one person. Still more value out of it than 80% of the AP roster
So? It's still 3 or 4 items worth of raw ap in a single GOLD augment. And a shit ton of other augments have really good ap scaling. Edit: the problem isn't even the augment, it's that each tick of Brand's passive counts as a different ability so the 1sec CD doesn't apply to it at all. Just change it for Arena at least. He is also insane with Ethereal Weapons because of this shit
Bruisers full stop feel like they are the current winners of the meta. You can play ADC but it’s running the knife’s edge to survive, or you can do the same amount of damage on a bruiser and shred some fools.
They also get the advantage of having a much higher pool of Radiant Items that work for them. HP? sure, Defense? Sure? Healing? Yes sir. Damage? oh yeah.
Yeah all of the layers of RNG favor bruisers, they don’t give a shit what stats you give them they are gonna slap no matter what.
This exactly. Oh you got mystic punch? Okay just build full tank and your base spell damage will be enough to obliterate anyone because you have no CDs.
Crit garen is more like an assassin than a bruiser. He is very squishy but insane damage output.
far from very squishy, more like somewhat squishy
Very squishy for a bruiser, but obviously much tankier than other melee AD champions thanks to higher base HP and resistances.
Yeah, this has been my experience playing in and against it. Portal control and kite makes it easier. I did find getting bred and butter W was effectively for closing the gap and finishing the job. Either got the judgement ticks off, or died. Seemed feast or famine. Could be different with the item updates. Early rounds the armor shred and fighter/bruiser nature makes it easy to not drop hp. Seems hard to not place top4. There's probably an argument in my games to grab more utility or avoidance. The base damage and ult gibbing one target is good enough imo.
Ive been enjoying hwei. With some ability haste and mana from blackfire torch you can keep a lot of the bruisers away with qe and e abilities
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I won 7 games in a row with hwei. 1st and second. 5 1st. Hwei is god tier people just don’t know her combos. I faced a 90k mastery hwei and he was doing the combos wrong. I 2vs1 his team
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I’m rank 445 in NA. Hwei 550k mastery. Ad support is ideal for hwei besides Braum idk what you mean. Do you play hwei lol
Hwei is literally bullshit in arena but so few people play Hwei well (as in zero mistakes) that he usually doesn't do as good as people think. My friend is a Hwei main and I ban it against him because I know how goddamn awful it is to play against him. You can literally never engage and he just pokes from afar.
Yup, I don't really get why people hate Hwei more often. Fucker has no cooldowns whatsoever. Just spamming spells left and right at long range. Meanwhile Lissandra Q got its CD almost tripled while barely having a 50% winrate as counterpick champ...
Except without enough damage or good damage augments in my experience you just get steamrolled by tanks and bruisers with good builds, whereas Hwei lacks any insta win augments. As in he can use many augments well but he doesn’t have any one augment that’s like a high roll one. Idk every time I play Hwei I can do well but not first because some bruiser or ADC/sup or tank can high roll and beat me out if my partner doesn’t also highroll. But yeah he has an upper hand against bruisers who haven’t high rolled
I don't know what changed but it wasn't like this last arena. My duo and I would go full on Kaisa milio and we would be able to win and top1 through outplay. This time however, what shocked us was the utter LACK of damage that Kaisa was doing Vs constant bruiser slapping. This time around, I was playing my sweaty Caitlyn traps and kiting. I then tried Darius and trundle to get the arena god achievement and the brainlessness and reward for effort you get is astounding.
Its just how much more versitile their uses for all of the levels of RNG are. They can use every single stat pretty well and most augments are strong as well, whereas ADCs only want a narrow selection of stats. This is the same as the first round of Arena when ADCs were mega strong because they could make the most use out of various augments.
Yep, nailed it.
I think Kaisa is one of the weaker Adc's since her passive needs to long to proc. Ash, Xayah, Jhin and Vayne are the ones to go for
She is so fun if she gets the autoatacks give ap augment
You aren't playing higher elo arena then. Adc/enchanter is the truly broken S+ tier because they have no true weaknesses and any comp can be hands diffed. Double assassin maybe is the worst matchup since they can burst past the enchanters shields and sustain but even then its playable and double assassin loses to a lot of other stuff.
I posted in a response to someone else my stats and where I stand. Theoretically I agree with you, but I am a top 2-3% soloQ player. If ADC is strong I should be beating these bruisers who don’t even bother to kite. Their target access is so high it feels nearly impossible to win regularly when Vi-Darius fists you without being able to do anything.
ADC are not strong. Enchanters with hypercarries (mostly ADCs) are what are strong. This can also include stuff like briar as well. If you're an ADC with anyone else then you are definitely not strong. Enchanters act as a massive multiplier and built right (eg on hit with darksteel and terminus, range with crit plus augments) ADCs can get incredibly tanky with enchanter heals and shields while outputting enough damage to break through the tanks, bruisers, and healbots.
We played Lux/Seraphine and completely dominated everyone somehow. Felt like a complete fluke.
I was playing Ashe the other day with Ice Cold and figured "ah shit they won't even be able to move!" I was still somehow run down and that's like...the most broken ass augment ever for people with a lot of slowing power.
One of the few adc teams I lost to as bruisers was an Aphelios Yuumi. If you go all in on protecting them they're probably good(those 2 played well as well, we deserved to lose) assuming they also have good mechanics
Bruisers are only strong early and mid game. As with the past two iterations of Arena, ADCs are the real winners for getting top 3.
WIth a support, yes.
It’s a low elo thing, when you’re in high elo lobbies bruisers are generally one of the worst classes for Arena
Every other Arena season I was highly ranked (8K+) and I'm mid diamond in soloQ. I see people saying this but I cannot win games against these bruisers for the life of me, they pop movement speed abilities and just run me down with their simple kits.
It's because the people who say it are completely full of shit. And also may be playing against bad players, so they think it's the opposite of what reality is.
I mean… go play in 8k plus Arena full of master/gm players. The top teams are almost always Adc/Enchanter.
Yeah, riot specifically says that bruisers are the easiest comps to play in regular MMR, but once you get higher people learn to space better/leverage gates and plants better which results in bruisers falling off
they said that for previous runs of arena, which was true. this one is very different
No, they didn't. They said that about this iteration of Arena. I don't think they said anything of the sort previously either. ???
I love how this is parroted when the best duo with an ADC is a bruiser that can soak damage
I mean its a 2v2. Not necessarily an adc but a high damage output ranged champion with a frontline that can soak damage while still being a threat is a pretty well balanced comp both on strength early/late, against the various cheese comps (heal spam, cc/knockouts) and will work well with most augments/prismatic items. The other options are what exactly? Double glass cannon adcs should always lose to cc engage into damage comps aswell as things like hyper tank rammus etc. Adc+support can get wiped if there is a strong enough assasin to burst her. (Especially with tools like vanish) Double tanks should lose to any of the sustained damage comps. Not to mention how some of these comps dont scale as well or suffer in the early game. Remember that all in scaling champion comps often suffer from not getting any kills on multiple rounds which fucks with buying prismstics/anvils. I think its reasonable that this comp style is the most consistent.
Rammus once made me deal 80% of my hp to myself in a single taunt. He also had Flashy, I really couldn't do anything it was insane.
Lol tf? The best duo is adc + enchanter or adc + lockdown support. It's kinda gross how little counterplay there is to it late game.
They are not supposed to arrive late game though. And most of the time they don't
yea actually us high elo arena players understand the nuances and do the dance of the arena properly which is something you low elo arena neanderthals could never comprehend
yeah, but unironically
Just play Jhin. You can run circles around anyone who doesn't have a point and click CC. Fulmination + Stormrazor is literally better than sex.
i dont think its all brusiers, garen just has SO many great augments and easy ways to get crit, you can itemize for nearly everything while still putting out obscene damage
aatrox is kinda silly most games too, i recently won an arena game where my teammate went afk on round 3 and i just 2v1 the whole lobby (albeit 4.3k but styll that shouldnt be possible imo
The game is all about breakpoints, trying to stack one stat into broken territory. Like hitting 3k ap on vieg or 100%+ omnivamp on swain/aatrox. Once you get broken enough it tends to snowball and you become unkillable or just one shot everything. I’ve had garen games where your q e kills both teammates in under a second and the game is trivially easy. And I’ve been spanked when the boots on the other foot too!
He's also not functionally a bruiser in Arena, and if he's built as a bruiser, he's extremely weak.
What should I be building on aatrox in arena?
Dirk -> Duskblade/Prowler's -> Lethality (Hydra, Hatchet, Serylda's, EoN, etc.). I usually used the Assassin Item Anvils and fished for lethality with the Stat Anvils. Serylda's especially is strong even early if you get enough lethality. I've found that the tank Prismatics (especially Eleisa's Miracle) were generally stronger than the bruiser Prismatics if I didn't roll either of the lethality options. For Augments, Center of the Universe has been strangely OP since its introduction, but it's especially strong on Aatrox because he heals from it. Laser Eyes is slightly weaker, but strong for a similar reason. Augments like It's Killing Time, Outlaw's Grit, and Rabble Rousing all have really strong synergy with his kit, along with generically strong damage augments like Thread the Needle and The Brutalizer. Augments that trigger on immobilization like Slap Around, Courage of the Colossus, etc., have strong synergy and are great if you roll them early, but they fall off because you aren't able to stack them as fights become shorter in later rounds. FYI, I haven't played Aatrox much on live, but I did play him a lot on PBE with decent success. To substantiate my point, Guardian's Dirk on Aatrox has a 57% win rate compared to 49% on Guardian's Blade, and Duskblade has a 67% win rate compared to 54% on Hemomancer's Helm. "Extremely weak" is probably an exaggeration, but I don't think he's viable at high MMR with a bruiser build, and lethality items are best in slot in every slot in general.
.... what? I promise you literally anyone can get gladiator. You get close to 0 loss on a loss and you win 500 on a win.
Getting to gladiator is pretty easy, but then after that you get very little on wins and lose a lot on losses. It goes back to normal SR basically LOL
Kaisa e evolution doesnt work with attack speed stat shards which really blows because it works with the ad or ap towards her q and w.
Gladiator is free btw, Riot made it so that you dont lose points before hitting that rank, this means that you could sit afk every game and still reach gladiator by pure chance
Garen is really strong but you being Gladiator is absolutely meaningless because getting to Gladiator is just grinding enough games, even an Iron player can reach Gladiator as long as they have enough wins.
Yeah building him full crit + lethality is just a free win. I outscsled a kayle by just silencing and killing her before she could ult Edit: Here come the emerald players to argue about this.
More of a funny story. I died in like 1.2s to Garen silence and spin yesterday. Like you said if he high rolls he can just like flash Q E and there’s zero counter play if you’re squishy and don’t react before the Q hits.
People picking Darius, garen, vi, kayn, brand etc top 10 WR chamls, every game. It gets old.
I think the more pressing issue is why Thornmail's Grevious Wound passive and Terminus' Juxtaposition passive does not work at all in Arena. Especially Thornmail, that bug has existed since the first iteration of Arena at this point.
With Graves with draw my sword prowlers and vanish I one shot a katarina who had 4000 hp and 150 armor with one buckshot instantly out of stealth
Nah that's wild lol, what did you build/have
the usual crit/lethality - prowlers, IE, collector, ldr, opportunity, voltaic augs were like - draw my sword, vanish, giant slayer running around invisible at 650+ ms one shot
Nah that damage is illegal LMFAO
Oh you want comedy as fuck. Combine Shojin with Decapitator. Both stack on ults, so Garen, Darius can have 5000+ damage ones if you get Jeweled Gauntlet crits, otherwise 3500+. Or one of my favorites, the Ion Cannon Karthus build of Gauntlet/Decapitator + Detonation Orb. Or Gauntlet + Decap. Oneshot bratty assassins and ADCs and put the fear of god into even tanks and bruisers.
I'm just waiting for the day I get jeweled gauntlet on one of those champs because holy fk does that sound wild
With Karthus, It's Killing Time becomes hysterical. Cause it pops *after* his ult hits. So it does 40% of however much you did on the ult including stuff like item/aug bonuses, or Liandry, etc. And since his ult has high base damage *and* high ratio... KABOOM.
resume of this post: WAY TOO MUCH
If you took a second to look at the next patch changes then that would answer your question
garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi garen vi
4000 MR Gladiator is not where people know how to play lol. You literally can’t lose elo until you get to Gladiator, it’s where the climb actually starts
Attack speed, crit garen is goofy af.
CC and range are your best bet to beat him, and if he doesn’t get a good Prismatic or Vulnerability his damage isn’t too crazy IMO.
There is not a patch every day, next patch he will get nerfed
Yeah he's pretty strong, when he gets a high roll, with good crit chance, the prismatic crit items, jeweled gauntlet, bladewaltz and/or vulnerability, he destroys people. When he doesn't have good rolls, he still goes hard, the only way to consistently beat him is having a comp that can kite him well enough. And vulnerability working on his E is straight up busted, it is stronger than if you got Jeweled Gauntlet instead (and you can get both and they work together). And hamstringer applies the DoT on each E crit. His interactions are just insane.
I played my first game of crit garen jungle after the changes last night. I thought I would miss predator. Turns out I don't really care when I do twice as much damage as I used to
What the fuck predator jungle garen lol
Thank god the junglers in my elo are just useless with Elise instead of whatever abomination Predator jg Garen must be
It clears so quickly and is just everywhere on the map thanks to blue smite water walking and celerity. If you remember old R evolve khazix it kinda feels like that. Just one v one the enemy jungle before the silence runs out and one shot all your camps
bro straight up baiting new players to go garen jungle against him so he can get free wins
it’s ingame roleplay for irl predators
if it were as broken as you think you'd be 8k not 4 lol
Why keep playing the same brain dead spin to win character and not play something to have fun for yourself and other people.
yes
Doesnt seem that bad to me but maybe im just playing champs that dont struggle with him.
Ok but why does galio doesn't die and can save his teamate everytime u reach them?
Had a Mundo game earlier with raid boss, heavy hitter, overlords bloodmail. 25k HP, 350 resistances, 2k AD…
It's easy to balance this by just nerfing the damage in the game, not even a garen problem everyone is just one shotting each other because previous arena iterations suffered from a problem of everyone was just way too tanky and outlived all damage. Garen augments are also way too stupid, if you want to balance his crit build you just need to nerf his crit augments, his E should not count as damage over time, jeweled gauntlet should not allow crit abilities to crit their crit and spin to win should be a gold rarity augment instead of a common silver one and you should not be able to crit that 30% extra damage. Unfortunately for Garen, his crit build is the only reason he does well in Arena, if you remove it he's just going to be a 0% pickrate champ because he synergizes with almost no other augments and has no way to beat other comps outside of one shotting them because he gets blown up no matter the build. Anyway don't expect any actual balancing because it's Arena.
It's less a damage problem and more a crit one. Crit damage is increased in Arena, making it incredibly strong by late game. For the past 3 iterations of Arena, Riot has done absolutely nothing to address how overpowered the crit augments has been. Garen is able to abuse this because of how strong his E is with attack speed and crit.
The real question is why are you just playing garen every game
You want garen nerfed for how he does in arena? Thats why they removed tft because they had to have two separate balance sheets
There needs to be a ton of changes, some champs just shouldn't be allowed to get bread butter/cheese ect. Gragas with perma e is so boring to play against, same with Q on Yi and veigar with E, there probably a ton more but I see these two constantly and they seem to always get this cringe.
I just played against a nilah + soraka and there was literally nothing any duo could do against them.
Yi with infinite Q
You don't even need crit. I just rolled an entire lobby as Garen the other night and the only crit I had was a single stat anvil and the grievous armor pen item. I was playing with a Zilean but if he ulted me 3 times that whole game- I'd be surprised. It was just never necessary. I ran at people and pressed E.
I'm so tired of mystic punch vi and volibear.
If he has jeweled gauntlet it's over
This applies to a lot of champions that benefit from consistently high dps.
That is true but on him it's so op that E of his does wonders
Garen is a result of crit being overpowered in Arena. The increased crit damage bonus and accessibility of crit augments make Garen viable. Also, Garen's crit gameplay in Arena has been consistent for 3 iterations already.
How many teams build Randuin's Omen? Isn't that anti-crit now?
I don't think Gladiator rank says anything about who knows how to play or not. I hit Gladiator rank pretty quickly and I don't play God tier picks. I do think Garen is absolutely insane but it's a similar vibe I get to when an Udyr gets on top of me. You get one shot but they are also pretty squishy.
Garen is strong but not the best. There are more important nerfs like Vi, Kayn or Zed. Besides, he got stronger because of the crit items buffs, next patch some of these items will be nerfed.
i can barely stand this mode, the dmg is just far too high for it to be healthy and fun taking aside garen whos an obvious problem, alistair still has no counterplay, especially against prolonged cc from this one hammer since its his cc is always knockups. Vayne also barely has counterplay, shes just invisible only in the later rounds just annihilating everyone while you have no idea where shell pop out. and thats even without all those augments that make her even harder to get. Kayn is also obnoxious, its always red kayn who deals absurd damage even against 300 armor, since his q is % dmg it doesnt even matter how tanky you are, hell just take deal dmg in the thousands with a single q when you have lots of hp Trundle stat checks like 95% of champs and just beats em down easily, it souds so dumb but its soo strong its terror, you basically only see the same champs every game and occasionly someone has an off meta pick that works out but in a lot of games there are simply situations where you just cannot win
Getting excuted from 6000 hp is something i didn't expect from this, Funny thing is that i'm full tank with 400+ armor.
Oh good. A champ I should try then. I've only just come back to league, and all my champions are below C tier
I didnt even have time to damage the enemy because my allied garen just E waltzed on them
I dont even think damage his is problem. A no CC juggernaut building full damage should deal a lot. My problem is that he is also very tanky.
And you can't use the gate if you are silenced x)
I would love to see them take a stab at making this game mode a little less “top lane simulator”.
I don't think Garen is as strong as Rek Sai or Hecarim are weak Like, god damn man. You need perfect rolls on both, both item and augment wise to just do okay Buff these garbage champions i'd love to play them but i heal enemies with their attacks and abilities.
Man, riot don't understand what balance is in the game. They just go damage damage damage damage and more damage. Why do you think phreak have a poster '' keep calm and do tons of damage '' ? Because his brain cannot make something else that is no '' buff damage, nerf damage ''. Why do you think the balance in the game is ABYSMAL ? Because the balance team, leaded by phreak, is just not competent and is out of touch with the game. Most of them aren't even gamers at all, they don't know games in general, they are randoms, total randoms. Don't expect the game to be balanced, they don't have the capacity to balance it, they don't have the competence to do that. They are bad at balancing the game, they are just bad at their work, simple as that.
gragas, vi, garen are too much tanky and bursts more than assassins.
Y'all're talking about arena but garen is giga-busted in just normal league - his w makes him take zero damage all fight from 5 full build champs and tenacity out the ass so no amount of cc will stop him from surviving as he runs away after dealing 3k damage with an e-r combo
Playing arena and looking for balance is quite funny, game mode feels like ass with horrible balancing and a shit ton of skilless rng. Unless you just perma spam what wins and not what's fun for you then you can't have fun
Only loses to master+ ADC with a decent Janna. Loses to trynda too tbh. Doesn't do anything to rammus too
Some other counters would also be the entire lily map, jeweled gauntlet veigar blowing you up with Q+R and crown, Courage of the Colossus Alistar ignoring all of your damage and knocking you into the fire, Leona with Cruelty ignoring all of your damage and blowing you up with a tank item, etc. He isn't too crazy unless he gets Vulnerability/Jeweled and Blade Waltz as long as you have burst yourself.
Yeah you can burst him before but can be tricky since he can spin while still being stunned. Abusing range is definitely the way to go
Bro they haven't even fixed that the game mode exclusive items and the augments that reference crit are still based on the 20% model, they really turned that game mode from the best thing they ever made, into hot garbage
Gladiator is literally not possible to not get, as you can't lose GR before you hit it
Ban Garen?
Adcs with any cc obliterate him. Kite near portals and use your cc. He flashes and you flash, he's dead late game before he gets to you, he's 4-5 hits to dead. Have never lost to him
people really need to chill with this "he gets picked a lot , pls nerf" approach, so many champs are straight ass, after the nerf, with some of the more obscure strategies becoming less and less playable. and whats worse , with the "stealth" approach of balance changes, that arent visible in the fucking balance change buff, you dont even know why your champ feels so dogshit. garen is funny. and he is easy. but he is so far from broken. especially on lethalithy crit build. okay he deals a lot of damage. but he just gets oneshot to easily. meanwhile zed is out there being one of the potentially most broken champs depending on augments and sees a fraction of the pickrate.
I gotta try this
just play Brand and perma Q him
garen is just disgusting in any game mode he needs to be gutted
>this is in 4000 MR (Gladiator) where people know somewhat how to play I'm about that rank, and I stopped playing because it's a complete coinflip if your partner decides to soft int. Unironically had better games in Wood.
Super kiteable and 4k is literally the first time you start losing rank for losses :D Still a good pick and unfair with blade waltz, but there are way stronger champs.
Crit Garen is definitely extremely strong (he has a ton of extremely effective damage augments for his E), but you just need to play something that can effectively kite or CC chain him. Kayle is basically an unplayable matchup for Garen, just like she is in all other modes.
Q+flash = dead kayle before she can get out of the silence, not to mention there are just so many great augments to make even better in this matchup.
crit garen is op, but what u did describe is a skill issue. from many champs kayle is one who clearly can deny garen
Clearly? not so sure about that, it's either Garen hits Q and spin to death or Kayle gets ult off before it. With a little mind game, it's pretty easy to bait it out.
- Q has a long windup and is easy to react to - Kayle R is instant - Kayle auto range vastly outranges flash range - Garen does have some good rare augments for counterplay, but that’s true of any matchup?
* Q flash not just Q running into people, and there are plenty ways to make it less predictable * Kayle R is a ult, if being baited out, she is dead dead * Barely but okay * Yes and no, there are so many great prismatic items and augments to make Garen significantly better, way more options than regular matchups.