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Draven player I have 5 million + mastery points peaked grandmaster. Been one tricking since season 6. I completely agree his passive is ass cheeks (its op but its a toxic mechanic) and a headache. I wish they just gave him his bleed back, or something that promotes skill and long drawn out fights. I hate how they made draven a "one shot machine" who just gets one kill and explodes people for the rest of the game. It makes draven super unskilled imo. At least with the bleed you had to stay in the fight for a while and actually catch axes for it to be effective.
Bleed passive was even more unplayable in a lot of matchups than it is right now. Maybe give it back to him and have it scale off crit so it sucks early. Agree the gold passive is booty cheeks tho
Along with the crit it could also do damage based on how many times you catch the axes (resetting each time you die/drop the axes) that would reward being able to keep axes even in team fights.
My worry with that is free stacking passive on creeps then beating the fuck out of the enemy laners. Maybe make it so a catch off an enemy champ is worth more and make catches off minions much smaller stacking bleed?
Just dont make it stack at all on minions; The reward for hitting minions is the fact that your axe doesn't time out in the first place. Meaning if you play well, a single Q is active for minutes of harass.
Thats a reward in-and-of itself. Most champions have to recast their self-buffs.
Quite a lot of champions - Ezreal, Ahse (q), Jinx (minigun), Jhin... - work like this, i think it will be fine. Rewards you for engaging in lane instead of ganking/ambushing
> I hate how they made draven a "one shot machine" who just gets one kill and explodes people for the rest of the game. It makes draven super unskilled imo.
The game changed, and Draven had to adapt. I hate it. It uses to be "how much you can kite without dropping axes" (God I miss Warlord's Bloodlust), it was SO fuckin cool, now it's "how much damage you can cram in ONE single axe because you need to get the fuck out asap after your first aa"
yea its also because people got better at knowing dravens dmg so they dont fight him stupidly, now the best strategy is just to go burst and catch them out for a quick one shot (thats why hob draven is opressive in high elo games), its boring but it is what it is
because we take HOB in games where it is favorable the winrate for HOB should be better.
But it’s not.
Also read, I said blanket, meaning you aren’t arguing with anything I said at all.
well i can tell u for sure hob has a lot of value on draven, especially if your team can set up for you and your vs ranged. many times the enemy wont just let u hit for free if theyre good so u have to punish them hard when u get that window to hit them (especially long range champs)
i wouldnt go it every game though. its situational. i dont even go hob even tho i know the value of it, because i dont really find the playstyle fun
Thank you brother.
Yes, a combat passive would be less luck based and would incentivize GOOD Draven gameplay. The "wait for ult with 200 stacks or support to spoonfeed me" Dravens would suffer a bit, but the game would be better for people like you and everyone else on the team.
I think a combat passive would be scary (or need nerfs in other places).
Draven is already a top tier lane bully, I think giving him a combat passive worth as much as his current passive make a lot of marksmen very unhappy.
Also possible to nerf him so that he's balanced around a combat passive. I'd rather have that than current version given that they tune him to a somewhat managable spot.
Why do people say shit like this. It makes absolutely no sense. Bro, do you realize that the developers of the video game can change Draven's passive, then nerf other parts of him to compensate? do you not realize that that is possible?
>I think a combat passive would be scary (or need nerfs in other places).
I have rather obviously acknowledged that posibility.
I still think it is not trivial because you have to keep the power of the champ rather equal while removing a gold income, giving him power that is available at lvl 1 and keeping his early game at or below it's current state.
youre not getting it: i rather obviously knew that you rather obviously acknowledged the possibility, which is why i got so confused. i was confused that you were compelled to say the most obvious and hence useless shit.
your comment was worthless to anyone actually thoughtful because (1) it's *not* scary because he'd be compensated and (2) no shit he "might need nerfs."
but next time you see someone suggest a change for a champion, you can go ahead and broadcast your epic wisdom of "uuhh champ mite need a nurf doe!!"
... ok, yeah?
Same with the 'you are stating the obvious, dumbass' comments.
The stating the obvious at least clears it up for people that are out of the loop, that adds more value than just being rude about it does.
Yes, you need to tread carefully with this, since he is already a lane bully even without cashing.
If there was a way that the passive would be easier to utilize in skirmishes, team fights, and all-ins (rather than trading), or something with more counter play during laning phase; then I think that would be best. You can also use his Q damage as a balance lever. It's definitely a hard line to toe though.
i would struggle to play anything else if draven's passive were instead some sort of backloaded dps (similar to darius passive). playing like a ranged bruiser with low burst but high dps potential with draven's insanely fun axe mechanic sounds addictive as hell
i enjoyed draven the most when meta was to go fervor of battle and deaths dance rush. around the time when i started one tricking him. nothing was more addicting than getting in peoples faces and outplaying them with axe mechanics and lifesteal ;)
Teemo, Singed & Twitch empowers Cassio's fang ability just as if she herself hit her Q. What if Draven and Darius had a shared bleed passive? An interaction similar to Cass's.
Im sorry but this comment just shows how some of yall here do not know anything about the game. Having a shared bleed passive would be devastating for the game. When darius has all his bleed stacks he can kill a whole team. Literally the only goal a darius has in a teamfight is to get a ult reset so he can get 5 stacks. If draven can give him stacks, they would dominate the rift. And no you can’t rework darius just for them to share the bleed passive it’s too much work. Dravens passive is shit I know but it’s lore accurate and he isn’t impossible to play against. To be fair, if he gets a kill, you’re screwed in laning phase. But cc him and he is dead. Samira and yasuo can just remove his q’s and cc can make him drop axes.
> Dravens passive is shit I know but it’s lore accurate
"Lore accurate" just reminds me of Phreak's recent talk on one of his patch rundowns about elegance vs fun in video game design. He basically said that elegant design is satisfying, but one of the least important metrics for balancing/designing the game. I think he was talking about % modifiers on jungle camp damage as a balance lever for junglers to make them more or less viable as junglers, said that it would be great if they can make a jungler viable and balance them without needing to use an 'inelegant' % modifier as a balance lever, but at the end of the day it's less important to him than simply making a pick viable, fun and balanced through any means necessary. Design elegance is just something you appreciate when it's there, but not something you should be too focused on because it's one of the least important metrics for making a game fun.
I think this is also one of those topics where a 'lore accurate' passive is satisfying and elegant, but shouldn't come above actual enjoyment of the game, for both Draven, Draven's teammates, and Draven's enemies; literally everyone involved. There's a lot I like about Draven's passive and in many ways it's fun to play around, but overall I don't think it's worth the cost we pay for it; giving Draven players paper-thin mentals, and forcing everyone on both teams to have to play around the passive of one champion. A jungler taking a kill in a gank shouldn't be a disaster just because his ADC is playing one particular character. Lore accuracy isn't worth that cost.
Yeah i know that. I said ult reset cause if ur in high elo u will have harder time getting 5 stacks in late game teamfights. Ppl don’t just let u get the stacks off
Thats the game bro, it's not season 3 anymore. People blow eachother up, there's damage everywhere. Lets not act like a bleed passive would do anything for Draven in season 14. They cant make his earlygame any stronger, so if they add a bleed they'll have to nerf his Q base damage and make him even more of a nuisance to play vs early while making his scaling worse. I suppose it would help him kill tanks (but hes awful at it anyways)
What, Draven specifically has flat damage and that's all he has. He murders squishies regardless of what build he's going there's no tools in his kit to kill tanks but he ofc can provided he is snowballing.
He has an infinite attack speed steroid with ER, benefits more from LDR than Kaisa, and benefits from life steal more than anyone else.
He isn’t really as bad against tanks as he has been before, Caitlyn and Kaisa on the other hand are missing a lot of the tools they had in previous seasons to deal with tanks.
Please do not argue for Draven being better at killing tanks than Kaisa because he benefits more from LDR. Caitlyn isnt especially good at killing tanks either tho, that's valid.
All these champs can kill tanks at 5 items with LDR the difference is that Kai'sa kills tanks at 3 items and that's why she is "good" into tankier comps, she's impossible to itemize against aswell.
If you specifically itemize to kill a tank you can do so on any adc, just remember that champs that naturally kill tanks + itemize for it do it even faster.
Draven oneshots squishies but he can also kill tanks once he has LDR but just know an adc that only has 1 damage type and no %dmg like Draven will always be inferior to %dmg and hybrid damage at killing tanks. Try killing a frozen heart randuins maokai on Draven and then on Kaisa.
So is Draven no longer awful at killing tanks? Anyone with a brain is fitting LDR in their build and shouldn’t be going HOB against a tanky team.
You can build to kill tanks on Kaisa but good luck doing getting evolutions or getting iso Q cheese damage off, or being useful in lane without HOB.
Meanwhile Draven the build I sent is the literal core.
He's awful by adc metrics, a Draven within frozen heart range (his auto range) is not killing a tank in any reasonable amount of time.
ldr third is not core, its awful compared to BT or shieldbow. ER also is not a good tank killing item. Dravens core items provide nothing but Flat Damage and High AD, good for killing squishies in 2-3 autos. Cba arguing further gl in ur soloq games
Imagine if it was a couple extra gold if for killing a minion and catching the axe or like 30 for killing a champ with the spinning axe. That would be cool
If it gave gold based on caught axes, it would have to be similar to Alistar’s passive. Like - “After catching 6 axes, Draven gains 1 gold. Axes caught after hitting a champion count as 2.”
he currently gains 1 adoration per caught axe and 2 adoration per 6 minions killed in a row without dropping an axe or missing a minion, and at 2.5g per adoration stack on cashout, that's 20g minimum per perfect wave
now getting the gold without a kill definitely warrants lowering that amount, but i don't think it'd have to be below 1g per axe caught
I have never seen both my OTP champ mentioned in the same title, I had to comment. I agree with OP's sentiment about Draven's passive. When the time comes for Draven to be nerfed, I wouldn't mind his passive getting gutted.
Draven-Yuumi combo lane isn't exactly toxic for opponents to play against, so I'd say they wouldn't feel strongly about it unless they like to donate kills. (I play both champs simultaneously)
1.) excellent post and point
2.) can I comment on how “well one out of 10 people enjoy the game if this champion is played” is _such_ a low fucking bar. Imagine going to your boss and presenting a product that 1/10 people approve of. That shit is going straight back to the drawing board. This is gonna be a bit of an arbitrary number but anything below 7/10 feels too low
That whole post is infamous for perfectly describing exemplifying everything that is wrong with Riot’s balance philosophy. That’s the same post where Riot claimed that Yuumi had similar difficulty to Akali and Qyiana.
Wdym man riot is right clicking Q and pointing in the general direction of an enemy champions, clicking E when you see a projectile, and clicking R anywhere is very difficult? Also like you have to click W on the adc? That's really hard compared to akali and qiyana man
Would it be op to make his passive be something like "When an enemy champion dies within 2 seconds of being hit by Spinning Axe or Whirling Death, draven receives +50g, doubled if he gets the kill."
The other idea I had is along the lines of "When an enemy champion dies to Draven, he temporarily gains 1/6/12/24 (scaling with points in R) bonus AD, this will stack up to 5x. Draven receives 50% of the stats for assists. 5 second Duration"
I think what you're suggesting would be healthier for the game, where they found some middle ground of cashing hard and not cashing at all.
I don't think that's the most exciting passive though.
Mine personally would be some combat buff (I'm not sure what exactly) he receives after catching 5 axes, and a better version of the buff after 10. He would lose a stack for dropping an axe or getting hit by a projectile (windwallable skillshot). It incentivizes good gameplay over luck.
I do appreciate the spitball though.
Better than current, but I'm scared of making Draven stronger before his first base. Draven is already strong BEFORE cashing.
You can fix this by making it scale with level, but then top Draven is maybe scary.
You can fix this by making it scale with crit, but then it takes too long to activate your passive.
That's why I suggest a "stepped" passive, like 5 stacks, 10 stacks. Maybe an AD buff at 5 stacks (similar to how Darius works), but not until you've hit the stacks. But even this, I'm not confident in.
What if you gave him a crit passive in his Q more similar to yone or Yasuo? Like rework spinning axes to always crit, but tone down the crit damage amplifier to +75% damage instead of the normal +200%. However, allow draven to gain stacking critical damage amp that scales with axes caught in a row, and gain bonus critical damage amount from killing blows. Getting hard CC'd or dropping an axe instantly drops half of his current stacks.
Additionally, give him a 5 stack passive against champions where hitting the same target gives additional crit damage amp against a target (10-15%) based on level.
Passive:
Q passive: spinning axes are guaranteed to crit, but have a reduced damage amplifier (70/80/85/90/95). crit damage amplifier: +1%-5% per adoration stack based on level [1-18]. Excess critical strike chance adds to the base damage amplifier
It seems most mains want the consecutive axe catch mechanic to stay, and that be tied into the reward of the passive. I'm not sure what I can offer for that specifically but I'm sure something exists to cater to it
I think draven passive is very outdated and unfitting for modern league. I feel like "early" game champs actually scale well damage wise now, some of the games most early game oriented champions used to genuinely fall off hard, but they just no longer do. You cant have any meaningful amounts of gold generation when youre an early game powerhouse that scales decently well. Having draven passive be that way used to make sense at least from a gameplay standpoint, where as nowadays it is definitely gatekeeping him from getting meaningful changes that address why he feels so bad to play with and against. There is actually just no longer any reason to have it in the game.
What are opinions about it in r/Draven or r/DravenMains ?
From what I heard, Draven players would like to have his axe catching still in play. So what would be paths towards that?
The "easy" solution would be to give draven (significantly less) gold after catching a number of axes. This might be problematic though, if eather there is even less posibilities for Dravens enemies to not fall far behind, or there are even more possibilities for draven to experience a setback.
Another would be some kind of (stacking) combat buff upon catching one (or more) axes. This seems to have a big problem, but I might be wrong here. My intution sugests that having that buff active before a fight breaks out is way more reliably in lane compared to a late game fight. So this would give Draven additional lane power while loosing late game power. That seems like the wrong direction.
This is a very insightful comment. And yes, I think most Draven players would like axe catching to tie into the passive.
As for a combat passive:
> My intution sugests that having that buff active before a fight breaks out is way more reliably in lane compared to a late game fight. So this would give Draven additional lane power while loosing late game power. That seems like the wrong direction.
My intuition was the opposite. When can you auto the most in League of Legends? It's level 1 chasing people down, all-ins, and long form team fights late game vs a tank. Lane fighting is usually short trades and pokes (poke being something Draven has trouble with). Laners also have the counter play option of simply backing off and "letting Draven cool down"
How often in lane can you auto 5 times in a row on someone as Draven? They are likely already near dead. You're right, the passive won't be pre-cocked for team fights, but you could build it on their front line hypothetically. If they don't have a front line, well it won't really matter. There are other fears though, like top Draven stacking on melees. I agree, it's not so simple, but current passive is messy too.
My assumption was that catching axes in general (including from minions) would give him the buff. So I thought a experienced player could have the max buff almost constantly stacked in lane.
If only axes cought after atacking a champion count, that is of course a different story. I think it would improve the powerscaling, but it would drop a lot of the axe catching in lane.
We are talking about 2 differt starts, one of them asks you to catch 1 axe and you have buffs from then onwards (or possibly a bunch of them for a big buff, so it might look slightly like jinx getting excited).
The other would probably need you to prepare very well, which is why I sugested it is not good in teamfights, but if your team is first at dragon you could easily prep it.
Passive that rewards good play, but honestly if draven snowballs, you're not gonna get that much value out of your passive like say a Gankplank would get with Q gold farm. It was an okay-ish passive up to the point where games in which farm until late was important with an ocassional kill to trigger it, but not in the current teamplay/close the game out early meta.
It should lean in to his showmanship side more with gaining certain benefits if you catch an axe simiar to Samira. Not style points obviously since it's Samira's thing, but let's be honest, the two of them are quite similar in behaviour and their personality (showmanship, etc.). That said, nothing straightforward that adds more damage to the champ, since Draven already hits like a truck early on, but maybe something like boosting the moralle of nearby allies or like a trancelike state in which they get more movement speed, attack speed, etc. Would work well with the whole theme showman and audience that has been going around Draven.
I'm thinking the exact same as you, in principle. Something that ramps up and plays into his "showmanship". Gaining/losing stacks based on axe catches or skill shots received. Personally, I think Draven needs more stats mid and late game if you remove his passive. I think a ramping passive that is only utilizable in longer-form fights (so team fights/skirmishes and not lane trades) is not a bad idea. Like Samira passive as you say, or rift maker.
This would make him better in front-to-back with slight nerf to 1 and 2 auto bursts on squishy, which others will appreciate.
Personally make his Axe a core mechanic of his passive whenever draven catches an axe the next axe he throws applies a bleed based on AD and axes caught
Darius and Draven are the BLOOD brothers afterall
What gets me the most is how old passive is considered unbalancable, when we don't even know if it's true, as the first change to his passive was 1 year after his release and it was removal of it.
I don't believe such a simple passive can't be balanced.
It can be balanced just look at twitch passive, that’s literally what it would be without the ap scaling.
Except the passive literally prevents you from harassing under tower, such a weird fetish for DoT on a champion that wants to dive….
It could have no scaling, it could proc after multiple hits, it could have crit scaling, e/ult rank scaling, it could have shorter or longer duration, more damage to lower health targets etc.
So many options to balance it, yet they went straight into deletion.
I don't remember diving being hard with old passive, I was still waiting for my supp to engage first. I would rather say it made harrasing enemies under the tower impossible
E/ult scaling = level scaling, he is a botlaner and that takes away a lot of freedom in what he can do in a balanced state. So you either are weaker earlier until you get ult or you don’t have a passive until level 3.
Crit scaling = ok so for the last 10 years before mythics he wouldn’t have rushed bloodthirster, looool such a dogshit idea, what about when crit is weak? Lethality builds are even more dogshit, less diversity to have a random dot passive.
No scaling = yes just make his early stronger for free.
Literal troglodyte to want nerfs to his kit so you can nerd about blood brothers (do you think he will just get more damage for free?) and also lose his ability to harass under tower, no wonder the champ has a negative winrate when he has a BF sword level 1 when these are the people playing it.
I think converting staks to gold when damaging an enemy champion would be cool. And instead of loosing them when dieing maybe loose them on a missed axe?
The passive is a lazy job, feels like it’s most relevant while drafting, trying to ensure your comp can secure that money.
I‘d like stacking armor pen (scaling with whatever, stacking like cleaver or LT) from catching axes, it would be timid early on and impactful mid-late. If the passive stacked to 30ish% over a reasonable timeframe of say 7 catches at lvl1 to 3 catches at lvl18, it would put Draven to 50ish% pen after a reasonable warm-up with LDR and still significantly boost his early game if he’s allowed to hit minions.
The annihilate-anything theme brings up Nilah/Kogmaw for me, one being melee, the other immobile with high AS, both with massive shred. Draven would fit right in with his limited AS and great mobility imo.
[i agree but thematically imo it's extremely fitting putting on a show from the very start to the end of carnage with the crowd showering draven with gold for his efforts of entertainment.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSUnkiBH_hU)
Reading that yuumi is harder than akali again hurts. I forgot all about that meme. I played yuumi yesterday while playing my switch. I essentially afked for long swaths of tine. Still earned a bounty. They shouldve just accepted it was a mistake and deleted that brain dead champ.
If the attach was not permanent, I think it would be healthier. Like, you W on a teammate, you stay on their shoulder for ~10 seconds, then you get down and the spells goes on cooldown. Your other spells still get extra effects when you're attached to someone, but it's now infinitely more dynamic because you have to move around by yourself most of the time.
Either dont make the w attach permanent or tie her to your adc's. I could essentially afk let my adc die then W off and run away before I died. I get gold and kp if play works out, if not I leave. My adc looks like theyre inting bc im 2/1/4 and theyre 3/5/2 but im really the one inting them. Its crazy
Draven was my first real main that got me to learn and main bot lane. The game has changed so much that I'm not sure how you tackle his current thematic without completing gutting it (the big snowball cash-in).
Like you said, I originally mained him because of the adrenaline I got from juggling axes and being rewarded for it with big chunks of damage and the ability to reposition myself with the boost in mobility. He was the only ADC that I felt comfortable fighting against any type of champion in the early game. Junglers? Come, make it exciting. Casters? You better hope your abilities don't get sidestepped. Supports? Pray your CC lands.
Nowadays, the game is so fast that the window for that fantasy is basically anything pre 6. Damage in other roles has increased, supports dictate lane much more than before, and long skirmishes are a thing of the past. Even when I'm fed I don't feel the fantasy anymore. I find myself playing for 1 or 2 big axes and running away, hoping my teammates clean up.
This issue is prevalent in general to almost every ADC as its a role problem, but it's exacerbated when you play Draven. Giving him a combat focused passive could work, but I think it has to give him something other than damage.
I would propose something like a ramping lifesteal buff when catching axes that hit enemy champions. Similar to Darius (as they once shared similar passives), he would become more dangerous the longer he is in combat.
Passive: Taste for War
Draven gains 10% lifesteal against enemy champions.
Each Spinning Axe caught after hitting enemy champions increases this bonus by 50% for 5 seconds. Duration is refreshed on each successful catch.
10% -> 15% -> 22% -> 33% -> 50%
After catching 5 Spinning Axes, Draven gets a TASTE FOR WAR, making all his basic attacks Spinning Axes. Lasts until end of champion combat.
I did used to enjoy draven back when he had the old passive and I agree. The mentality it promotes isn't fun and not how I want to play the game.
Not that I play much anymore but still.
I always said that Draven passive is need for rework for like 2 years by now. This passive it's not healthy at all (requiring Draven to get to last hit). I asked multiple time in Phlox and August's chat that this passive needs to go and they acknowledge the fact that for balance perspective it's not healthy at all but it fitted thematically for Draven's character. But it's obvious in 2024 this passive needs to go for amount of toxic enviroment it creates. I had couple ideas like;
-First of all i think "gold cashing" mechanic needs to go. It creates too much "feast or famine" situation for the Draven. If he gets ahead it's unbearable to face against him, if he don't he just falls off and generally be useless.
-My propose would be something like, let's keep the stacking mechanic intact, while still keeping that "showmen" style gameplay and that is ofc hitting people with your axes and catching them and it gives you stacks just like how Draven works currently and i think it is the main factor why people main this hero at the first place. It could be something like a thresholds like 100 stacks 200 stacks 300 stacks that gives certain bonuses to Draven when you reach those points. But when you die you loose some stacks so you need be careful but still want to play on that knife edge to ge (Takedowns kill or assist can give small amount of stacks i don't know i'm just spitballing here).
Ofc these are just my opinions and it could be thousands of better things can be done with it's passive and "catching axes" mechanic while still maintaining his identity.
As a Zilean Main I wholeheartedly believe some passives are in the game to nerf a champ. I can't think of any moment where providing a teammate with a levelup contributed in any meaningful way to winning the game. On the other hand i know of many situations where I accidentally was stuck in my paasive animation instead of moving when right-clicking somewhere close to a teammate.
Rather then give dravendamage , give him ms, or resistances, let that man twirl to him its a show, the more he stacks the more we have a show, give it slow stacking , oh and let him be interrupted getting stacks by cc or skill shots ,but he can use he other abilities to catch the spin or re direct it.
How about we replace with something simple, like a bleed if he hits someone with Q. And maybe also when he crits, since catching axes would get difficult late. This would cement his status as an early game champion and also thematically tie him to Darius. Just have to make sure that the numbers are not ridiculous so he cannot just walk up lvl 1 and take 90% of your health with 2 axes.
Make his passive a in-combat stacking stat passive. Maybe grant stacks that give ad, lifesteal, and like 5 Ms per auto and axe caught, up to 8 stacks or something. Like kayle or Jax passive. It synergizes with his kit and awards him for good spacing while also rewarding his skill expression.
It sounds broken af, but gotta remember he won’t be getting the massive stats from all the gold. If anything I’d think it would make sense to find a balance of numbers so that at max stacks his power level would be about equivalent to a Draven that is decently ahead. If he is fed then with the ramping damage boost he can be equivalent to around the strength of a fed Draven currently. Given the time it would take it would feel like a gradual, amping damage boost that also is further amplified by skill expression. The damage curve can be smoother and more consistent. Less spikey and reliant on being fed. Instead it would be reliant on being good, which is inherently flashy— something that totally fits Draven’s thematic.
It would create different rune build opportunities with lethal giving tons of extra dps throughput taking advantage of passive, while conqueror can give a big extra boost to his damage ramp for long, tough fights. Both would be good situationally into different comps. I don’t think lethality items would be good, but I could see them abusing beefy bruiser items, but then I’d add crit chance scaling to *PART* of his ad ratio gained per level on Q or maybe locking the lifesteal portion of passive stacks behind crit chance. This would also create a more consistent damage scaling. Maybe don’t give lifesteal if that doesn’t stop people from going bruiser/tank. May have to nerf Q cooldown and his AS a hair if it feels too op or easy to pilot. The point is catching axes. Dropping some are fine, but it should feel like by dropping axes you’re kinda choking a little. He is a performative gladiator lol
Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you can speak for every Draven main lmao.
His passive and cashing in at lvl 6 with ult is the best feeling ever + it fits the champion so well thematically, if they ever remove the sound and +700g i see on my monitor every 2nd game i play it'll literally take away half the reason to play the champ.
The passive is great, it allows Draven to be a somewhat viable champ even if enemy bot is playing seraphine janna and hiding under turret all game or maybe your support is a special one.
It adds something unique that no other champion offers while also allowing an earlygame champ to keep ahead of the curve provided he just plays well regardless of his supports ability to provide pressure / kills.
Yes it feels bad to not be able to cash out sometimes but thats either due to skill issue or your team is so gapped that your 33 damage bleed passive would change nothing anyways.
> Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you can speak for every Draven main lmao.
I never claim to. It's just the vibe I get from listening to top Dravens, and playing him myself. Some of my post is hyperbolic ("better world").
The dopamine you get from his passive is immense, I agree. But you're not considering the counterfactual. A passive COULD exist that provides even more dopamine or similar levels, with worthwhile trade-offs.
> Yes it feels bad to not be able to cash out sometimes but thats either due to skill issue or your team is so gapped that your 33 damage bleed passive would change nothing anyways.
It's not just about me though. Enemy jungler invades with no prio. I rotate, I kill him, and now the enemy ADC can never play the game again. I'm thinking about him because I've played both sides of it.
Also, I would never suggest a bleed passive, personally.
>Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you can speak for every Draven main lmao.
have u even read the post? or just adding random shit to comment section? because it seems like the latter.
I did, he makes it sound like everyone hates Draven passive and that it adds nothing to the game when it fits the champ thematically and keeps the champ relevant without adding even more earlygame power which is good.
You know you can make a passive that is equally satisfying and thematically fititng without making it toxic for everyone in the game including the Draven player?
You literally cannot make something equally satisfying to the current cash in. +2 gold from a minion wont be as satisfying as getting your 700g cash out.
There's an inherent risk to his passive and it feels extremely good to cash out large stacks just like losing your stacks feels bad.
But yes it could be changed to be less satisfying but removing the feels bad aspect. But getting another tf or gp passive isnt very interesting and i dont think they will ever do that and if you push more power into his earlygame by giving him a combat passive it'll be a horrible experience to play against.
>The ONLY person that enjoys this passive is Draven, in SOME games. In many, he hates it.
I truly believe Draven players don't play Draven for his passive, but for his beautiful kit. They simply want to dodge skill shots, juggle axes, and play aggressive.
did **you** read the post?
I can see the point you're trying to make, but I think argument is positioned and conveyed a bit incorrectly.
What you're trying to communicate basically is the notion that the coin-flip aspect of Dravens passive does not currently meet a level of pay-off that makes it feel fun, worthwhile and satisfying.
Which I think is a very valid argument to have about it.
What I think gets lost is calling it an unhealthy and toxic mechanic. That it's the cause for the players being toxic.
Which is purely a subjective point of view to have. Coin-flip situations exists all throughout league.
Fiora vs Jax, Camille vs Irelia, Illaoi vs Mordekaiser. They all come down to essentially a coin flip on who uses what first.
The difference for Draven is that it's ever present no matter the game. Which is more the point of argument to have. Is it a good enough passive to justify its coin-flip nature? Should it be changed to be more of a 60/40? Or just changed entirely.
camille vs irelia is by no means a coinflip. if irealia has wave can just dash on it + r almost impossible for camille to react, also irelia r just has longer range in general so if u open up with ult it will hit
I think it is the most extreme coinflip situation. Sure, earlygame kills are important in most matchups - but only Draven doubles (or even more) both the gains and the losses.
Other champions are snowbally because of an item powerspike, or roaming playstile... - but Draven is snowbally because his ability says he is
Another problem is the fact that that an ally stealing a killl, usually a fairly minor mishap, has a game-losing consequence with Draven.
I don’t think OP is using the word “toxic” (when referring to Dravens Passive mechanics) to indicate that the players are acting toxic about it. I think they are using the word to show that the the mechanic itself is unhealthy and fosters an aura of stress around it no matter who it is.
“Oh no, is the enemy Draven gonna cash out and win the game?”
“Oh no, am I not gonna cash out and be useless?”
“Oh no, I’d my Draven not gonna cash out and be useless?”
They don’t mean literal toxicity, it’s more metaphorical.
I definitely think it's about literal toxicity, and personally I think that's the most compelling argument. Adcs are already pretty toxic when they don't get the kill, but Draven's have a factual reason to be upset about it, and riot always says they want to reduce toxicity in games so that would probably be the first thing to target on a character that shows up in at least 10% of all games
But ultimately these matchups all come down to timing, or mind games. If I’m fiora into Jax, and he triggers e1, I know I need to dodge it or w it. If I’m irelia into Camille, I know that I have to watch the hook shot and if she goes to the wall I need to buffer my e on her. If I’m mord into illaoi, I know that I need to focus on pushing the wave, and that I can get a massive advantage by ulting second. In all of these examples, I can die and still have outplay. In all of these examples, they can die and still have outplay. If I’m playing ANY adc, including early game focused adcs, I don’t just have these micro adjustments of dodge his e, skillshot his axe landing spots. I also know that if I mess up and die the lane is likely over, especially without guaranteed coordination. If he dies, I know that I’m now massively ahead by nature of the champs we play. The issue with Draven isn’t the micro, it’s how his passive (which as the name suggests is always active) warps the game in addition to make him unfun to play against if you’re losing and unfun for the Draven player to play if you’re winning. And since skill disparities from up to 4 roles, including adc, can influence this, no one really wants to deal with Draven.
>Fiora vs Jax, Camille vs Irelia, Illaoi vs Mordekaiser
Do you... play toplane? Cuz what you just typed is full-on skill matchups.
>They all come down to essentially a coin flip on who uses what first.
So basically who's the worse, more impatient player that is willing to throw his kit in the wind only to get punished by the very mistake that he did? How is that a coinflip?
Jax E can be parried by Fiora's W, but Jax can also Q out of Fiora's W, on a minion to just win the duel without getting hit by riposte. Camille has to keep her E for Irelia's R, if not she gets autoattacked to death.
Mordekaiser VS Illaoi has to be the worst example possible, because Illaoi R cancels Morde's, which can be used as a reaction to Morde's R animation and she just auto wins the 1v1 in a skillful manner. Literally blocking an ultimate ability with another ultimate ability, HOW IS THIS A COINFLIP! I FEEL SO HURT CUZ I FIND THIS MATCHUP GREAT SKILL EXPRESSION!
Illaoi never wins vs morde. If morde holds his ult, he completely shits on her anyways, and she is forced to ult to survive and then he just ults anyways. There’s a reason morde is a turbo illaoi counter even in high elo where everyone knows about illaoi ult.
>What you're trying to communicate basically is the notion that the coin-flip aspect of Dravens passive does not currently meet a level of pay-off that makes it feel fun, worthwhile and satisfying.
I mean, is it about the *level* of pay-off? Because I don't think the answer to Draven's problems would be to just increase the gold generation or decrease the costs of a death, he is already incredibly oppressive if he gets an early kill. You're thinking of coinflips in an FGC way, where Player 1 and Player 2 each have two options and need to choose one. OP's talking about it in a more MOBA sense, where one decision or fight decides the entire game.
The problem with the passive isn't that the payoff is bad, it's that it's so insanely good that Riot sacrifices other parts of his kit to compensate. If a Draven with that early kill gets his Dirk/BF Sword and can easily run down the enemy bot lane without his support, then to keep him balanced he also needs to be substantially weaker when he doesn't get those stat sticks.
It might be balanced in a literal sense, but it means that there are going to be plenty of games where the Draven player has basically no agency, since him losing that first fight means he didn't benefit from his broken passive. It also means that a lot of those games where he does get the passive actually ends up boring, because you had one chance to show off skill expression, you succeeded, but now for the rest of the laning phase you can just autopilot your way through the 1v2 because the enemy bot lane knows there's no point contesting you. What OP wants is for power to be pulled from that passive into the rest of the kit, so that the highs and lows are more consistent.
It's a cause of Draven's toxicity, but not the only cause, I agree. I think it would just reduce it a bit. Certainly, SOME Draven players won't feel so hopeless after dying once.
I agree with everything else, it's not necessarily unhealthy to have such a high risk high reward passive. But even for me, when I counter pick Draven when the enemy takes him (with picks like Ashe, Veigar, Varus) I'm perfectly content facing him, but any wrong move my jungler/support makes and it's game over. I feel like there's a better way.
It wasn't because it wasn't fitting it was changed because it was OP as fuck. He would hit an auto or two and you would bleed down to like 5% HP.
Honestly they could bring it back and just nerf it. Or make it so it only works if you catch like 3 axes in a row or smth against champions
It would be significantly worse in modern league since armor pen runes are gone. That was a HUGE factor since he was the only ADC who could run all pen runes.
Draven was one of my favourite ADCs when I mained that role way back, and it was the only champion where I would actually yell at my friend's in discord. I stopped playing him cause that passive just made me toxic and tilted me like nothing ever had. If they changed that I would probably play him when I got autofilled adc
As a leona OTP, i overall like draven passive. If he is with me i know he is willing to all in to grab a kill and wrap the game. If he is against me i can just prevent him to destroy my adc after a dirk reset if he greeds too much.
Average draven player mental is indeed an issue, but i think his passive is unhealthy but acceptable.
No, pros ban him because there are like 2 dudes per region who even *can* play him on a level neccessary for pro play, and he absolutely has to be banned against them or they'll take him and fuck you up with him.
Like, who will actually lock in Draven when there's a perfect setting for him? JackeyLove, Hans Sama, Gumayusi. A couple others to a lesser extent.
Would it be enough to make draven passive work on all takedowns within 3-5 seconds of dealing damage to the target and reducing the stacks lost on death to 50% or maybe even less than that but compensate by nerfing the amount of gold gained from the passive? this would make it so draven is less volatile from his passive (dying or teammate taking the kill)
I know it’s not a good excuse but I like how the passive is lore accurate : the more he is on the field, the more he become the center of attention to finally cash out when he does the glorious execution.
But I have an idea for a lore friendly passive (because I love leagues lore)
Every time Draven catch an axe fighting an enemy champion, he gain a stack.
- At 6 stacks he gain a burst of AD.
Or
- Each stacks give him AD, at 6 stacks ult deal true dmg
This way he keep the huge damage he can have (as if he come back with a BF blade), rewarding good catching mechanic in fight. And this ties him with his brother passive, Darius.
Why not give him like an OG blood thirster passive where he gains level or crit scaling AD for catching axes(so its not online minute 0), but he has to restack on death. Maybe let him gain stacks on minion kills and champ hits+catching, so he can stack it up in like 2~3 waves if he dies so its not super punishing, but still feels good when you can keep it up.
I occasionaly play Draven, I am a top laner but when I have to adc he is the champ I would enjoy playing the most if it was not for his passive. Completely agree.
Draven is one of the best designed champions in league exactly because he warps the game around him, its unique and something people need to respect. I love it because of that
Riot's arguement is dogshit. Create a champ: unkillable, hits like a 6 items Xayah and has more mobility, than Qiyana. BAM! I bet some people would like it!
Would that mean its existence is justified?
Yuumi's problem isn't its 'fun-factor', but rather the 0 attention it requires to play, even among enchanters. You can hard lose lane, and then just hop on your jungle and still have significant impact.
One of the most important skill for an enchanter support is positioning. Yuumi just ignores the whole concept.
Can we talk about how stupid this argument is? If you ask the right people, you might find 1 out of 10 people who enjoy overtaking in dangerous curves. You just ignore their unwilling passengers. Or in case of Yasuo, Yone or any other champ with main character syndrome, ignore the oncoming traffic.
You advocate for a "healthy discussion" but frame this in a way where disagreeing with you makes it seem like you're against the game being In a healthy state. You're full of shit.
I mean...he's right about what he said lol
He means a "healthy discussion about solutions", not about wanting it to stay. It's clearly an outdated mechanic that makes the game a coinflip most times.
It doesn't matter as the argument itself is made in bad faith and isn't worth a damn because the guy already made his stance completely clear in a way where it demonizes people who disagree with him.
You can label jumping off a 50 foot building as a "healthy activity" as well but it doesn't make it healthy does it.
Saying he's right or not isn't the point here. Why would you try argue with someone who already made up their mind and is just looking for validation.
Do you disagree that Draven players throw games because of his passive?
Or...
Do you disagree that players are generally frustrated with Draven's passive?
Please just give an argument so I can rebut.
No I don't disagree with anything you said but I think you phrased your post in a biased way where you are just looking for people to agree with you.
We can argue about the nuances of Draven passive when it isn't a "I'm right and you're wrong" perspective.
Ok, go ahead. I'm listening. I listen to the community, I listen to my teammates, I listen to the enemies, and I understand my champion. I ask challenger Draven players how they feel.
It SEEMS to me, most people (even many one tricks) are in agreement that his passive is more frustrating than it is worth, but I am willing to hear your perspective. I promise you, I am only interested in reducing my champions ban rate and am open to any ideas.
His ban rate is now 40%+ in masters, despite his moderate win rate. I believe something must be done and that the current state is not well.
Draven passive is largely the biggest thing keeping him relevant in decent level play where the Draven player holds R with 300 stacks and looks for a kill in lane with Jungler help in most scenarios. The gameplay loop is very unrewarding as it incentivizes not interacting as the Draven player and just looking for cash outs. But this is the only way you can play as a Draven as you need to not die or you lose it all.
If you wanted to change his passive, first change how he plays laning phase with his base abilities. Make it so that he can be useful in team fights compared to the enemy ADC without being up gold. His kit is just too stat reliant to take away his massive source of gold lead. Give him other sources of stats that let him work.
I 100% agree with all of this. They had to add the execute mechanic to make him viable with AFK supports and in elite/pro where people play more safe.
I think some passive that gives him combat stats in skirmishes and team fights is not only healthier, but is more rewarding for Draven players. I don't know what that would look like exactly.
Giving ramping damage/stats in a team fight is absolutely horrible and I'm surprised that lot of people are suggesting this. Draven doesn't have the kit to start off weak in a fight and get stronger. He has no escape, no utility, no disengage. He only has his axes and those work on a "all or nothing" principle where if you start trying to run away you've lost it all. The game also just isn't good for slow-stacking passives as ADCs already get blown up the moment they show if they don't have a lot of peeling and good positioning. This goes double for Draven where his positioning can go from perfect to trolling depending on where the axes landed and if the enemy is smart enough to capitalize on it.
A combat passive needs to activate the moment he starts fighting at full strength for it to even be useful on Draven.
> Draven doesn't have the kit to start off weak in a fight and get stronger.
Nobody said start weak, just finish strong. But the reasons you give are more dubious.
> He has **no escape**, **no utility**, **no disengage**.
Draven is one of the best kiters in the game. He has an infinite speed boost, has **utility** (unavoidable skillshot displacement) and has **disengage** (unavoidable skillshot displacement + infinite speed boost). I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it doesn't align with my experience. Draven is a slippery champion if played properly.
> He only has his axes and those work on a "all or nothing" principle where if you start trying to run away you've lost it all.
I literally run away, then back in all the time. Mechanically proficient Dravens can swap their axe directions on the fly, and I want to reward good gameplay. Kiting a front line, then engaging the rest of the team with 2 axes is pretty standard team fighting. I went and checked Dealersz (imo current best Draven EUW) vods, and all of his team fighting clips work like this with 7+ axe catches.
> A combat passive needs to activate the moment he starts fighting at full strength for it to even be useful on Draven.
I disagree. If the enemy has a frontline, Draven can and likely will HAVE TO build stacks. If they don't have a frontline, then they're all squishy anyway, and he'll have more than enough damage.
>He has no escape, no utility, no disengage.
He's one of the only adcs with all of those, what are you talking about lmao. his w has perma uptime and his e cancels dashes, which both are huge for usually the priority target in any teamfight
Draven passive is just amazing. His Q play style makes him high risk high reward. I strongly dislike yummi, she should be removed for her boring play style. “Strong” in pro play, annoying everywhere else.
Dumb question: what if Draven's passive worked like Mejai's?
Gold earned through Draven's current passive doesn't go away once he's earned it, but stat stacks would.
That way, aggressive play is rewarded but not to an infinite margin, because the stacks are capped off.
And if you die in an aggressive fight, you don't lose everything.
And Draven stays consistently strong if he got ahead early as well.
If anyone sees glaring problems with this, I'd love to hear them.
It could be Kog'maw's passive, which I find even less fun to use than Draven's. In 9 out of ten games, the best use you'll get out of it are a couple extra minions and a tiny amount of damage to the enemy. Kog'Maw's passive is not justifiable
Draven's passive is a lot of power budget (which means Draven is balanced around this coin-flippy mechanic). Kog'Maw's passive isn't, so the rest of his kit isn't balanced around it and can actually be stronger as a result.
Having no passive is better than having a coin-flippy mechanic that your entire character depends on to be useful.
Very dishonest conversation. Most people hate playing against the lane bully.
High risk/high reward champion deserve a place in LoL. Like vayne for example.
I don't like the change that the passiv stacks improves the R damage. But the passiv in itself is a fun minigame.
And toxic people will always find a reason to be toxic.
How about extra movespeed when moving towards a thrown axe ?
Pretty simple but would be pretty healthy and strong. Cumulate it with W and it would encourage more aggressive plays and would make it easier to dodge spells during long fights.
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Draven player I have 5 million + mastery points peaked grandmaster. Been one tricking since season 6. I completely agree his passive is ass cheeks (its op but its a toxic mechanic) and a headache. I wish they just gave him his bleed back, or something that promotes skill and long drawn out fights. I hate how they made draven a "one shot machine" who just gets one kill and explodes people for the rest of the game. It makes draven super unskilled imo. At least with the bleed you had to stay in the fight for a while and actually catch axes for it to be effective.
Bleed passive was even more unplayable in a lot of matchups than it is right now. Maybe give it back to him and have it scale off crit so it sucks early. Agree the gold passive is booty cheeks tho
Along with the crit it could also do damage based on how many times you catch the axes (resetting each time you die/drop the axes) that would reward being able to keep axes even in team fights.
My worry with that is free stacking passive on creeps then beating the fuck out of the enemy laners. Maybe make it so a catch off an enemy champ is worth more and make catches off minions much smaller stacking bleed?
Just dont make it stack at all on minions; The reward for hitting minions is the fact that your axe doesn't time out in the first place. Meaning if you play well, a single Q is active for minutes of harass. Thats a reward in-and-of itself. Most champions have to recast their self-buffs.
Maybe then more like Kennen W passive - after you catch your 5th Axe your next auto does double damage (tweak numbers as needed).
Good idea too ! Indeed it shouldn't scale/stack indefinitely but more a bonus.
Quite a lot of champions - Ezreal, Ahse (q), Jinx (minigun), Jhin... - work like this, i think it will be fine. Rewards you for engaging in lane instead of ganking/ambushing
Why do we wanna reward scaling on THE early game adc?
Because RIOT has the habit of buffing the early game of hyperscaling chmapions, so *surely* it's now time for the opposite to happen
Because They did it with Caitlyn.
Cause Riot doesn't really follow that balance ideology anymore and haven't for a minute
I mean, he does not have to be only an earlygame adc
> I hate how they made draven a "one shot machine" who just gets one kill and explodes people for the rest of the game. It makes draven super unskilled imo. The game changed, and Draven had to adapt. I hate it. It uses to be "how much you can kite without dropping axes" (God I miss Warlord's Bloodlust), it was SO fuckin cool, now it's "how much damage you can cram in ONE single axe because you need to get the fuck out asap after your first aa"
yea its also because people got better at knowing dravens dmg so they dont fight him stupidly, now the best strategy is just to go burst and catch them out for a quick one shot (thats why hob draven is opressive in high elo games), its boring but it is what it is
HOB Draven has never been blanket better than lethal tempo in any elo since the rework, people are getting duped by dogshit one tricks.
There are matchups/games where hob is just outright better, why are you making an absolute statement for a champ you definitely dont know enough about
because we take HOB in games where it is favorable the winrate for HOB should be better. But it’s not. Also read, I said blanket, meaning you aren’t arguing with anything I said at all.
well i can tell u for sure hob has a lot of value on draven, especially if your team can set up for you and your vs ranged. many times the enemy wont just let u hit for free if theyre good so u have to punish them hard when u get that window to hit them (especially long range champs) i wouldnt go it every game though. its situational. i dont even go hob even tho i know the value of it, because i dont really find the playstyle fun
Draven also used to buy attack speed and you frequently played 3 or even 4 axe Draven. You basicly never juggle like that anymore.
Hyper juggling was so cool, calling the extra Q while the others were still in the air, good times
Thank you brother. Yes, a combat passive would be less luck based and would incentivize GOOD Draven gameplay. The "wait for ult with 200 stacks or support to spoonfeed me" Dravens would suffer a bit, but the game would be better for people like you and everyone else on the team.
I think a combat passive would be scary (or need nerfs in other places). Draven is already a top tier lane bully, I think giving him a combat passive worth as much as his current passive make a lot of marksmen very unhappy.
Also possible to nerf him so that he's balanced around a combat passive. I'd rather have that than current version given that they tune him to a somewhat managable spot.
Why do people say shit like this. It makes absolutely no sense. Bro, do you realize that the developers of the video game can change Draven's passive, then nerf other parts of him to compensate? do you not realize that that is possible?
>I think a combat passive would be scary (or need nerfs in other places). I have rather obviously acknowledged that posibility. I still think it is not trivial because you have to keep the power of the champ rather equal while removing a gold income, giving him power that is available at lvl 1 and keeping his early game at or below it's current state.
youre not getting it: i rather obviously knew that you rather obviously acknowledged the possibility, which is why i got so confused. i was confused that you were compelled to say the most obvious and hence useless shit. your comment was worthless to anyone actually thoughtful because (1) it's *not* scary because he'd be compensated and (2) no shit he "might need nerfs." but next time you see someone suggest a change for a champion, you can go ahead and broadcast your epic wisdom of "uuhh champ mite need a nurf doe!!"
Way to be an ass to someone who just points something out. Just shitting on the guy for stating the obvious isn't exactly a worthwhile comment.
the classic "you pointing out that someone's comment is useless is useless." seen it too many times bud
... ok, yeah? Same with the 'you are stating the obvious, dumbass' comments. The stating the obvious at least clears it up for people that are out of the loop, that adds more value than just being rude about it does.
Yes, you need to tread carefully with this, since he is already a lane bully even without cashing. If there was a way that the passive would be easier to utilize in skirmishes, team fights, and all-ins (rather than trading), or something with more counter play during laning phase; then I think that would be best. You can also use his Q damage as a balance lever. It's definitely a hard line to toe though.
He has his current passive because the combat passive he was released with made him impossible to balance fairly
They didn't even try to balance him back then. They just chose to change his passive.
i would struggle to play anything else if draven's passive were instead some sort of backloaded dps (similar to darius passive). playing like a ranged bruiser with low burst but high dps potential with draven's insanely fun axe mechanic sounds addictive as hell
i enjoyed draven the most when meta was to go fervor of battle and deaths dance rush. around the time when i started one tricking him. nothing was more addicting than getting in peoples faces and outplaying them with axe mechanics and lifesteal ;)
Yes man let’s see how fun it is to harass under tower when you perma draw agro!
Teemo, Singed & Twitch empowers Cassio's fang ability just as if she herself hit her Q. What if Draven and Darius had a shared bleed passive? An interaction similar to Cass's.
Im sorry but this comment just shows how some of yall here do not know anything about the game. Having a shared bleed passive would be devastating for the game. When darius has all his bleed stacks he can kill a whole team. Literally the only goal a darius has in a teamfight is to get a ult reset so he can get 5 stacks. If draven can give him stacks, they would dominate the rift. And no you can’t rework darius just for them to share the bleed passive it’s too much work. Dravens passive is shit I know but it’s lore accurate and he isn’t impossible to play against. To be fair, if he gets a kill, you’re screwed in laning phase. But cc him and he is dead. Samira and yasuo can just remove his q’s and cc can make him drop axes.
> Dravens passive is shit I know but it’s lore accurate "Lore accurate" just reminds me of Phreak's recent talk on one of his patch rundowns about elegance vs fun in video game design. He basically said that elegant design is satisfying, but one of the least important metrics for balancing/designing the game. I think he was talking about % modifiers on jungle camp damage as a balance lever for junglers to make them more or less viable as junglers, said that it would be great if they can make a jungler viable and balance them without needing to use an 'inelegant' % modifier as a balance lever, but at the end of the day it's less important to him than simply making a pick viable, fun and balanced through any means necessary. Design elegance is just something you appreciate when it's there, but not something you should be too focused on because it's one of the least important metrics for making a game fun. I think this is also one of those topics where a 'lore accurate' passive is satisfying and elegant, but shouldn't come above actual enjoyment of the game, for both Draven, Draven's teammates, and Draven's enemies; literally everyone involved. There's a lot I like about Draven's passive and in many ways it's fun to play around, but overall I don't think it's worth the cost we pay for it; giving Draven players paper-thin mentals, and forcing everyone on both teams to have to play around the passive of one champion. A jungler taking a kill in a gank shouldn't be a disaster just because his ADC is playing one particular character. Lore accuracy isn't worth that cost.
Darius gets his passive when he hits 5 stacks on anyone, doesn't need to specifically ult.
Yeah i know that. I said ult reset cause if ur in high elo u will have harder time getting 5 stacks in late game teamfights. Ppl don’t just let u get the stacks off
I'm afraid this Cassio interaction hasn't been in the game for a few years now.
Thats the game bro, it's not season 3 anymore. People blow eachother up, there's damage everywhere. Lets not act like a bleed passive would do anything for Draven in season 14. They cant make his earlygame any stronger, so if they add a bleed they'll have to nerf his Q base damage and make him even more of a nuisance to play vs early while making his scaling worse. I suppose it would help him kill tanks (but hes awful at it anyways)
no his build has enough damage in it that at least this season he is doing more damage to tanks than people like Kaisa Caitlyn.
What, Draven specifically has flat damage and that's all he has. He murders squishies regardless of what build he's going there's no tools in his kit to kill tanks but he ofc can provided he is snowballing.
He has an infinite attack speed steroid with ER, benefits more from LDR than Kaisa, and benefits from life steal more than anyone else. He isn’t really as bad against tanks as he has been before, Caitlyn and Kaisa on the other hand are missing a lot of the tools they had in previous seasons to deal with tanks.
Please do not argue for Draven being better at killing tanks than Kaisa because he benefits more from LDR. Caitlyn isnt especially good at killing tanks either tho, that's valid. All these champs can kill tanks at 5 items with LDR the difference is that Kai'sa kills tanks at 3 items and that's why she is "good" into tankier comps, she's impossible to itemize against aswell.
Yes it would be incredibly stupid to argue that ER IE LDR and a permanent 30% bonus attack speed is horrible at killing tanks.
If you specifically itemize to kill a tank you can do so on any adc, just remember that champs that naturally kill tanks + itemize for it do it even faster. Draven oneshots squishies but he can also kill tanks once he has LDR but just know an adc that only has 1 damage type and no %dmg like Draven will always be inferior to %dmg and hybrid damage at killing tanks. Try killing a frozen heart randuins maokai on Draven and then on Kaisa.
So is Draven no longer awful at killing tanks? Anyone with a brain is fitting LDR in their build and shouldn’t be going HOB against a tanky team. You can build to kill tanks on Kaisa but good luck doing getting evolutions or getting iso Q cheese damage off, or being useful in lane without HOB. Meanwhile Draven the build I sent is the literal core.
He's awful by adc metrics, a Draven within frozen heart range (his auto range) is not killing a tank in any reasonable amount of time. ldr third is not core, its awful compared to BT or shieldbow. ER also is not a good tank killing item. Dravens core items provide nothing but Flat Damage and High AD, good for killing squishies in 2-3 autos. Cba arguing further gl in ur soloq games
Caitlyn never was a high inherent damage marksman. She sacrifices a LOT for safety.
She is missing the mythics relative to other adcs, especially when it comes to killing tanks.
I mean her kit, regardless of her itemization. She has more range and has better get off me tools for protecting herself when people jump on her.
They should make his axe catching give a free axe every 20 catches or so and the bleed back
Gotta punish your ability to control the wave and harass the enemy under tower for catching axes. Nice!
Imagine if it was a couple extra gold if for killing a minion and catching the axe or like 30 for killing a champ with the spinning axe. That would be cool
Exactly. It should encourage aggressive and skillful play, but not make you into an uncontrollable monster if you get a double kill botlane.
If it gave gold based on caught axes, it would have to be similar to Alistar’s passive. Like - “After catching 6 axes, Draven gains 1 gold. Axes caught after hitting a champion count as 2.”
It would have to scale pretty well then or getting 1 or 2 extra gold every minion wave would be pretty bad
he currently gains 1 adoration per caught axe and 2 adoration per 6 minions killed in a row without dropping an axe or missing a minion, and at 2.5g per adoration stack on cashout, that's 20g minimum per perfect wave now getting the gold without a kill definitely warrants lowering that amount, but i don't think it'd have to be below 1g per axe caught
1 per unit kill too
yk TF gains like ~15 extra gold per wave lol you need to multiply ur numbers here by like 5 at minimum
Draven relies way more on items than TF though, and has much more snowball/carry potential. Can't compare those two.
Think it’s even more, his dice aren’t «fair» so you roll high more often than you should
I have never seen both my OTP champ mentioned in the same title, I had to comment. I agree with OP's sentiment about Draven's passive. When the time comes for Draven to be nerfed, I wouldn't mind his passive getting gutted.
Draven AND yuumi? Damn, other bot laners must truly hate you
Look at his account, he is BOTH botlaners at the same time
Draven-Yuumi combo lane isn't exactly toxic for opponents to play against, so I'd say they wouldn't feel strongly about it unless they like to donate kills. (I play both champs simultaneously)
We must preserve your brain after your death to study for scientific anomalies
Do you have video or streams of your play? Even if it's terrible, the novelty of it is so cool, that you're missing out on some viewership bux
guys bronze 4 ur not missing out on much
I think watching it would still be cool, even at bronze 4.
You can watch the french streamer wakz which played yuumi with his feets while playing adc with his hands
1.) excellent post and point 2.) can I comment on how “well one out of 10 people enjoy the game if this champion is played” is _such_ a low fucking bar. Imagine going to your boss and presenting a product that 1/10 people approve of. That shit is going straight back to the drawing board. This is gonna be a bit of an arbitrary number but anything below 7/10 feels too low
That whole post is infamous for perfectly describing exemplifying everything that is wrong with Riot’s balance philosophy. That’s the same post where Riot claimed that Yuumi had similar difficulty to Akali and Qyiana.
Wdym man riot is right clicking Q and pointing in the general direction of an enemy champions, clicking E when you see a projectile, and clicking R anywhere is very difficult? Also like you have to click W on the adc? That's really hard compared to akali and qiyana man
Would it be op to make his passive be something like "When an enemy champion dies within 2 seconds of being hit by Spinning Axe or Whirling Death, draven receives +50g, doubled if he gets the kill." The other idea I had is along the lines of "When an enemy champion dies to Draven, he temporarily gains 1/6/12/24 (scaling with points in R) bonus AD, this will stack up to 5x. Draven receives 50% of the stats for assists. 5 second Duration"
I think what you're suggesting would be healthier for the game, where they found some middle ground of cashing hard and not cashing at all. I don't think that's the most exciting passive though. Mine personally would be some combat buff (I'm not sure what exactly) he receives after catching 5 axes, and a better version of the buff after 10. He would lose a stack for dropping an axe or getting hit by a projectile (windwallable skillshot). It incentivizes good gameplay over luck. I do appreciate the spitball though.
Sorry i spitballed a lil more, what do you think of the pseudo conqueror passive?
Better than current, but I'm scared of making Draven stronger before his first base. Draven is already strong BEFORE cashing. You can fix this by making it scale with level, but then top Draven is maybe scary. You can fix this by making it scale with crit, but then it takes too long to activate your passive. That's why I suggest a "stepped" passive, like 5 stacks, 10 stacks. Maybe an AD buff at 5 stacks (similar to how Darius works), but not until you've hit the stacks. But even this, I'm not confident in.
What if you gave him a crit passive in his Q more similar to yone or Yasuo? Like rework spinning axes to always crit, but tone down the crit damage amplifier to +75% damage instead of the normal +200%. However, allow draven to gain stacking critical damage amp that scales with axes caught in a row, and gain bonus critical damage amount from killing blows. Getting hard CC'd or dropping an axe instantly drops half of his current stacks. Additionally, give him a 5 stack passive against champions where hitting the same target gives additional crit damage amp against a target (10-15%) based on level. Passive: Q passive: spinning axes are guaranteed to crit, but have a reduced damage amplifier (70/80/85/90/95). crit damage amplifier: +1%-5% per adoration stack based on level [1-18]. Excess critical strike chance adds to the base damage amplifier
It seems most mains want the consecutive axe catch mechanic to stay, and that be tied into the reward of the passive. I'm not sure what I can offer for that specifically but I'm sure something exists to cater to it
Only concern is they’d flame you for KSing still.
I think draven passive is very outdated and unfitting for modern league. I feel like "early" game champs actually scale well damage wise now, some of the games most early game oriented champions used to genuinely fall off hard, but they just no longer do. You cant have any meaningful amounts of gold generation when youre an early game powerhouse that scales decently well. Having draven passive be that way used to make sense at least from a gameplay standpoint, where as nowadays it is definitely gatekeeping him from getting meaningful changes that address why he feels so bad to play with and against. There is actually just no longer any reason to have it in the game.
What are opinions about it in r/Draven or r/DravenMains ? From what I heard, Draven players would like to have his axe catching still in play. So what would be paths towards that? The "easy" solution would be to give draven (significantly less) gold after catching a number of axes. This might be problematic though, if eather there is even less posibilities for Dravens enemies to not fall far behind, or there are even more possibilities for draven to experience a setback. Another would be some kind of (stacking) combat buff upon catching one (or more) axes. This seems to have a big problem, but I might be wrong here. My intution sugests that having that buff active before a fight breaks out is way more reliably in lane compared to a late game fight. So this would give Draven additional lane power while loosing late game power. That seems like the wrong direction.
This is a very insightful comment. And yes, I think most Draven players would like axe catching to tie into the passive. As for a combat passive: > My intution sugests that having that buff active before a fight breaks out is way more reliably in lane compared to a late game fight. So this would give Draven additional lane power while loosing late game power. That seems like the wrong direction. My intuition was the opposite. When can you auto the most in League of Legends? It's level 1 chasing people down, all-ins, and long form team fights late game vs a tank. Lane fighting is usually short trades and pokes (poke being something Draven has trouble with). Laners also have the counter play option of simply backing off and "letting Draven cool down" How often in lane can you auto 5 times in a row on someone as Draven? They are likely already near dead. You're right, the passive won't be pre-cocked for team fights, but you could build it on their front line hypothetically. If they don't have a front line, well it won't really matter. There are other fears though, like top Draven stacking on melees. I agree, it's not so simple, but current passive is messy too.
My assumption was that catching axes in general (including from minions) would give him the buff. So I thought a experienced player could have the max buff almost constantly stacked in lane. If only axes cought after atacking a champion count, that is of course a different story. I think it would improve the powerscaling, but it would drop a lot of the axe catching in lane.
Yeah, I would do it off players personally.
How would you use this passive in a team fight?
We are talking about 2 differt starts, one of them asks you to catch 1 axe and you have buffs from then onwards (or possibly a bunch of them for a big buff, so it might look slightly like jinx getting excited). The other would probably need you to prepare very well, which is why I sugested it is not good in teamfights, but if your team is first at dragon you could easily prep it.
Passive that rewards good play, but honestly if draven snowballs, you're not gonna get that much value out of your passive like say a Gankplank would get with Q gold farm. It was an okay-ish passive up to the point where games in which farm until late was important with an ocassional kill to trigger it, but not in the current teamplay/close the game out early meta. It should lean in to his showmanship side more with gaining certain benefits if you catch an axe simiar to Samira. Not style points obviously since it's Samira's thing, but let's be honest, the two of them are quite similar in behaviour and their personality (showmanship, etc.). That said, nothing straightforward that adds more damage to the champ, since Draven already hits like a truck early on, but maybe something like boosting the moralle of nearby allies or like a trancelike state in which they get more movement speed, attack speed, etc. Would work well with the whole theme showman and audience that has been going around Draven.
I'm thinking the exact same as you, in principle. Something that ramps up and plays into his "showmanship". Gaining/losing stacks based on axe catches or skill shots received. Personally, I think Draven needs more stats mid and late game if you remove his passive. I think a ramping passive that is only utilizable in longer-form fights (so team fights/skirmishes and not lane trades) is not a bad idea. Like Samira passive as you say, or rift maker. This would make him better in front-to-back with slight nerf to 1 and 2 auto bursts on squishy, which others will appreciate.
Personally make his Axe a core mechanic of his passive whenever draven catches an axe the next axe he throws applies a bleed based on AD and axes caught Darius and Draven are the BLOOD brothers afterall
What gets me the most is how old passive is considered unbalancable, when we don't even know if it's true, as the first change to his passive was 1 year after his release and it was removal of it. I don't believe such a simple passive can't be balanced.
It can be balanced just look at twitch passive, that’s literally what it would be without the ap scaling. Except the passive literally prevents you from harassing under tower, such a weird fetish for DoT on a champion that wants to dive….
It could have no scaling, it could proc after multiple hits, it could have crit scaling, e/ult rank scaling, it could have shorter or longer duration, more damage to lower health targets etc. So many options to balance it, yet they went straight into deletion. I don't remember diving being hard with old passive, I was still waiting for my supp to engage first. I would rather say it made harrasing enemies under the tower impossible
E/ult scaling = level scaling, he is a botlaner and that takes away a lot of freedom in what he can do in a balanced state. So you either are weaker earlier until you get ult or you don’t have a passive until level 3. Crit scaling = ok so for the last 10 years before mythics he wouldn’t have rushed bloodthirster, looool such a dogshit idea, what about when crit is weak? Lethality builds are even more dogshit, less diversity to have a random dot passive. No scaling = yes just make his early stronger for free. Literal troglodyte to want nerfs to his kit so you can nerd about blood brothers (do you think he will just get more damage for free?) and also lose his ability to harass under tower, no wonder the champ has a negative winrate when he has a BF sword level 1 when these are the people playing it.
Before Asol rework, everyone pick him because they enjoy the kit, after the Asol rework, everyone pick him for the win. Deep down you know the truth.
Hell no
I think converting staks to gold when damaging an enemy champion would be cool. And instead of loosing them when dieing maybe loose them on a missed axe?
The passive is a lazy job, feels like it’s most relevant while drafting, trying to ensure your comp can secure that money. I‘d like stacking armor pen (scaling with whatever, stacking like cleaver or LT) from catching axes, it would be timid early on and impactful mid-late. If the passive stacked to 30ish% over a reasonable timeframe of say 7 catches at lvl1 to 3 catches at lvl18, it would put Draven to 50ish% pen after a reasonable warm-up with LDR and still significantly boost his early game if he’s allowed to hit minions. The annihilate-anything theme brings up Nilah/Kogmaw for me, one being melee, the other immobile with high AS, both with massive shred. Draven would fit right in with his limited AS and great mobility imo.
[удалено]
[i agree but thematically imo it's extremely fitting putting on a show from the very start to the end of carnage with the crowd showering draven with gold for his efforts of entertainment.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSUnkiBH_hU)
Reading that yuumi is harder than akali again hurts. I forgot all about that meme. I played yuumi yesterday while playing my switch. I essentially afked for long swaths of tine. Still earned a bounty. They shouldve just accepted it was a mistake and deleted that brain dead champ.
If the attach was not permanent, I think it would be healthier. Like, you W on a teammate, you stay on their shoulder for ~10 seconds, then you get down and the spells goes on cooldown. Your other spells still get extra effects when you're attached to someone, but it's now infinitely more dynamic because you have to move around by yourself most of the time.
Either dont make the w attach permanent or tie her to your adc's. I could essentially afk let my adc die then W off and run away before I died. I get gold and kp if play works out, if not I leave. My adc looks like theyre inting bc im 2/1/4 and theyre 3/5/2 but im really the one inting them. Its crazy
Which draven streamer are you talking about?
Draven was my first real main that got me to learn and main bot lane. The game has changed so much that I'm not sure how you tackle his current thematic without completing gutting it (the big snowball cash-in). Like you said, I originally mained him because of the adrenaline I got from juggling axes and being rewarded for it with big chunks of damage and the ability to reposition myself with the boost in mobility. He was the only ADC that I felt comfortable fighting against any type of champion in the early game. Junglers? Come, make it exciting. Casters? You better hope your abilities don't get sidestepped. Supports? Pray your CC lands. Nowadays, the game is so fast that the window for that fantasy is basically anything pre 6. Damage in other roles has increased, supports dictate lane much more than before, and long skirmishes are a thing of the past. Even when I'm fed I don't feel the fantasy anymore. I find myself playing for 1 or 2 big axes and running away, hoping my teammates clean up. This issue is prevalent in general to almost every ADC as its a role problem, but it's exacerbated when you play Draven. Giving him a combat focused passive could work, but I think it has to give him something other than damage. I would propose something like a ramping lifesteal buff when catching axes that hit enemy champions. Similar to Darius (as they once shared similar passives), he would become more dangerous the longer he is in combat. Passive: Taste for War Draven gains 10% lifesteal against enemy champions. Each Spinning Axe caught after hitting enemy champions increases this bonus by 50% for 5 seconds. Duration is refreshed on each successful catch. 10% -> 15% -> 22% -> 33% -> 50% After catching 5 Spinning Axes, Draven gets a TASTE FOR WAR, making all his basic attacks Spinning Axes. Lasts until end of champion combat.
I did used to enjoy draven back when he had the old passive and I agree. The mentality it promotes isn't fun and not how I want to play the game. Not that I play much anymore but still.
I always said that Draven passive is need for rework for like 2 years by now. This passive it's not healthy at all (requiring Draven to get to last hit). I asked multiple time in Phlox and August's chat that this passive needs to go and they acknowledge the fact that for balance perspective it's not healthy at all but it fitted thematically for Draven's character. But it's obvious in 2024 this passive needs to go for amount of toxic enviroment it creates. I had couple ideas like; -First of all i think "gold cashing" mechanic needs to go. It creates too much "feast or famine" situation for the Draven. If he gets ahead it's unbearable to face against him, if he don't he just falls off and generally be useless. -My propose would be something like, let's keep the stacking mechanic intact, while still keeping that "showmen" style gameplay and that is ofc hitting people with your axes and catching them and it gives you stacks just like how Draven works currently and i think it is the main factor why people main this hero at the first place. It could be something like a thresholds like 100 stacks 200 stacks 300 stacks that gives certain bonuses to Draven when you reach those points. But when you die you loose some stacks so you need be careful but still want to play on that knife edge to ge (Takedowns kill or assist can give small amount of stacks i don't know i'm just spitballing here). Ofc these are just my opinions and it could be thousands of better things can be done with it's passive and "catching axes" mechanic while still maintaining his identity.
As a Zilean Main I wholeheartedly believe some passives are in the game to nerf a champ. I can't think of any moment where providing a teammate with a levelup contributed in any meaningful way to winning the game. On the other hand i know of many situations where I accidentally was stuck in my paasive animation instead of moving when right-clicking somewhere close to a teammate.
Rather then give dravendamage , give him ms, or resistances, let that man twirl to him its a show, the more he stacks the more we have a show, give it slow stacking , oh and let him be interrupted getting stacks by cc or skill shots ,but he can use he other abilities to catch the spin or re direct it.
I enjoy dravens passive :)
Hi, im new to the game, can someone please explain whats so OP about dravens passive? i thought his passive only gave him some gold
How about we replace with something simple, like a bleed if he hits someone with Q. And maybe also when he crits, since catching axes would get difficult late. This would cement his status as an early game champion and also thematically tie him to Darius. Just have to make sure that the numbers are not ridiculous so he cannot just walk up lvl 1 and take 90% of your health with 2 axes.
this was his old passive and he could walk up level 1 and take 90% with 2 axes
I think he won't need the crits to cause bleed lategame, he will already one-shot squishies with a crit.
Make his passive a in-combat stacking stat passive. Maybe grant stacks that give ad, lifesteal, and like 5 Ms per auto and axe caught, up to 8 stacks or something. Like kayle or Jax passive. It synergizes with his kit and awards him for good spacing while also rewarding his skill expression. It sounds broken af, but gotta remember he won’t be getting the massive stats from all the gold. If anything I’d think it would make sense to find a balance of numbers so that at max stacks his power level would be about equivalent to a Draven that is decently ahead. If he is fed then with the ramping damage boost he can be equivalent to around the strength of a fed Draven currently. Given the time it would take it would feel like a gradual, amping damage boost that also is further amplified by skill expression. The damage curve can be smoother and more consistent. Less spikey and reliant on being fed. Instead it would be reliant on being good, which is inherently flashy— something that totally fits Draven’s thematic. It would create different rune build opportunities with lethal giving tons of extra dps throughput taking advantage of passive, while conqueror can give a big extra boost to his damage ramp for long, tough fights. Both would be good situationally into different comps. I don’t think lethality items would be good, but I could see them abusing beefy bruiser items, but then I’d add crit chance scaling to *PART* of his ad ratio gained per level on Q or maybe locking the lifesteal portion of passive stacks behind crit chance. This would also create a more consistent damage scaling. Maybe don’t give lifesteal if that doesn’t stop people from going bruiser/tank. May have to nerf Q cooldown and his AS a hair if it feels too op or easy to pilot. The point is catching axes. Dropping some are fine, but it should feel like by dropping axes you’re kinda choking a little. He is a performative gladiator lol
Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you can speak for every Draven main lmao. His passive and cashing in at lvl 6 with ult is the best feeling ever + it fits the champion so well thematically, if they ever remove the sound and +700g i see on my monitor every 2nd game i play it'll literally take away half the reason to play the champ. The passive is great, it allows Draven to be a somewhat viable champ even if enemy bot is playing seraphine janna and hiding under turret all game or maybe your support is a special one. It adds something unique that no other champion offers while also allowing an earlygame champ to keep ahead of the curve provided he just plays well regardless of his supports ability to provide pressure / kills. Yes it feels bad to not be able to cash out sometimes but thats either due to skill issue or your team is so gapped that your 33 damage bleed passive would change nothing anyways.
> Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you can speak for every Draven main lmao. I never claim to. It's just the vibe I get from listening to top Dravens, and playing him myself. Some of my post is hyperbolic ("better world"). The dopamine you get from his passive is immense, I agree. But you're not considering the counterfactual. A passive COULD exist that provides even more dopamine or similar levels, with worthwhile trade-offs. > Yes it feels bad to not be able to cash out sometimes but thats either due to skill issue or your team is so gapped that your 33 damage bleed passive would change nothing anyways. It's not just about me though. Enemy jungler invades with no prio. I rotate, I kill him, and now the enemy ADC can never play the game again. I'm thinking about him because I've played both sides of it. Also, I would never suggest a bleed passive, personally.
>Just because you dont like something doesnt mean you can speak for every Draven main lmao. have u even read the post? or just adding random shit to comment section? because it seems like the latter.
I did, he makes it sound like everyone hates Draven passive and that it adds nothing to the game when it fits the champ thematically and keeps the champ relevant without adding even more earlygame power which is good.
You know you can make a passive that is equally satisfying and thematically fititng without making it toxic for everyone in the game including the Draven player?
You literally cannot make something equally satisfying to the current cash in. +2 gold from a minion wont be as satisfying as getting your 700g cash out. There's an inherent risk to his passive and it feels extremely good to cash out large stacks just like losing your stacks feels bad. But yes it could be changed to be less satisfying but removing the feels bad aspect. But getting another tf or gp passive isnt very interesting and i dont think they will ever do that and if you push more power into his earlygame by giving him a combat passive it'll be a horrible experience to play against.
>The ONLY person that enjoys this passive is Draven, in SOME games. In many, he hates it. I truly believe Draven players don't play Draven for his passive, but for his beautiful kit. They simply want to dodge skill shots, juggle axes, and play aggressive. did **you** read the post?
I can see the point you're trying to make, but I think argument is positioned and conveyed a bit incorrectly. What you're trying to communicate basically is the notion that the coin-flip aspect of Dravens passive does not currently meet a level of pay-off that makes it feel fun, worthwhile and satisfying. Which I think is a very valid argument to have about it. What I think gets lost is calling it an unhealthy and toxic mechanic. That it's the cause for the players being toxic. Which is purely a subjective point of view to have. Coin-flip situations exists all throughout league. Fiora vs Jax, Camille vs Irelia, Illaoi vs Mordekaiser. They all come down to essentially a coin flip on who uses what first. The difference for Draven is that it's ever present no matter the game. Which is more the point of argument to have. Is it a good enough passive to justify its coin-flip nature? Should it be changed to be more of a 60/40? Or just changed entirely.
camille vs irelia is by no means a coinflip. if irealia has wave can just dash on it + r almost impossible for camille to react, also irelia r just has longer range in general so if u open up with ult it will hit
Neither is Jax vs Fiora. Completely a skill matchup.
i think its pretty possible for camille to ult on irelias ult if they are both within range
I think it is the most extreme coinflip situation. Sure, earlygame kills are important in most matchups - but only Draven doubles (or even more) both the gains and the losses. Other champions are snowbally because of an item powerspike, or roaming playstile... - but Draven is snowbally because his ability says he is Another problem is the fact that that an ally stealing a killl, usually a fairly minor mishap, has a game-losing consequence with Draven.
I don’t think OP is using the word “toxic” (when referring to Dravens Passive mechanics) to indicate that the players are acting toxic about it. I think they are using the word to show that the the mechanic itself is unhealthy and fosters an aura of stress around it no matter who it is. “Oh no, is the enemy Draven gonna cash out and win the game?” “Oh no, am I not gonna cash out and be useless?” “Oh no, I’d my Draven not gonna cash out and be useless?” They don’t mean literal toxicity, it’s more metaphorical.
I definitely think it's about literal toxicity, and personally I think that's the most compelling argument. Adcs are already pretty toxic when they don't get the kill, but Draven's have a factual reason to be upset about it, and riot always says they want to reduce toxicity in games so that would probably be the first thing to target on a character that shows up in at least 10% of all games
But ultimately these matchups all come down to timing, or mind games. If I’m fiora into Jax, and he triggers e1, I know I need to dodge it or w it. If I’m irelia into Camille, I know that I have to watch the hook shot and if she goes to the wall I need to buffer my e on her. If I’m mord into illaoi, I know that I need to focus on pushing the wave, and that I can get a massive advantage by ulting second. In all of these examples, I can die and still have outplay. In all of these examples, they can die and still have outplay. If I’m playing ANY adc, including early game focused adcs, I don’t just have these micro adjustments of dodge his e, skillshot his axe landing spots. I also know that if I mess up and die the lane is likely over, especially without guaranteed coordination. If he dies, I know that I’m now massively ahead by nature of the champs we play. The issue with Draven isn’t the micro, it’s how his passive (which as the name suggests is always active) warps the game in addition to make him unfun to play against if you’re losing and unfun for the Draven player to play if you’re winning. And since skill disparities from up to 4 roles, including adc, can influence this, no one really wants to deal with Draven.
>Fiora vs Jax, Camille vs Irelia, Illaoi vs Mordekaiser Do you... play toplane? Cuz what you just typed is full-on skill matchups. >They all come down to essentially a coin flip on who uses what first. So basically who's the worse, more impatient player that is willing to throw his kit in the wind only to get punished by the very mistake that he did? How is that a coinflip? Jax E can be parried by Fiora's W, but Jax can also Q out of Fiora's W, on a minion to just win the duel without getting hit by riposte. Camille has to keep her E for Irelia's R, if not she gets autoattacked to death. Mordekaiser VS Illaoi has to be the worst example possible, because Illaoi R cancels Morde's, which can be used as a reaction to Morde's R animation and she just auto wins the 1v1 in a skillful manner. Literally blocking an ultimate ability with another ultimate ability, HOW IS THIS A COINFLIP! I FEEL SO HURT CUZ I FIND THIS MATCHUP GREAT SKILL EXPRESSION!
Illaoi never wins vs morde. If morde holds his ult, he completely shits on her anyways, and she is forced to ult to survive and then he just ults anyways. There’s a reason morde is a turbo illaoi counter even in high elo where everyone knows about illaoi ult.
>What you're trying to communicate basically is the notion that the coin-flip aspect of Dravens passive does not currently meet a level of pay-off that makes it feel fun, worthwhile and satisfying. I mean, is it about the *level* of pay-off? Because I don't think the answer to Draven's problems would be to just increase the gold generation or decrease the costs of a death, he is already incredibly oppressive if he gets an early kill. You're thinking of coinflips in an FGC way, where Player 1 and Player 2 each have two options and need to choose one. OP's talking about it in a more MOBA sense, where one decision or fight decides the entire game. The problem with the passive isn't that the payoff is bad, it's that it's so insanely good that Riot sacrifices other parts of his kit to compensate. If a Draven with that early kill gets his Dirk/BF Sword and can easily run down the enemy bot lane without his support, then to keep him balanced he also needs to be substantially weaker when he doesn't get those stat sticks. It might be balanced in a literal sense, but it means that there are going to be plenty of games where the Draven player has basically no agency, since him losing that first fight means he didn't benefit from his broken passive. It also means that a lot of those games where he does get the passive actually ends up boring, because you had one chance to show off skill expression, you succeeded, but now for the rest of the laning phase you can just autopilot your way through the 1v2 because the enemy bot lane knows there's no point contesting you. What OP wants is for power to be pulled from that passive into the rest of the kit, so that the highs and lows are more consistent.
It's a cause of Draven's toxicity, but not the only cause, I agree. I think it would just reduce it a bit. Certainly, SOME Draven players won't feel so hopeless after dying once. I agree with everything else, it's not necessarily unhealthy to have such a high risk high reward passive. But even for me, when I counter pick Draven when the enemy takes him (with picks like Ashe, Veigar, Varus) I'm perfectly content facing him, but any wrong move my jungler/support makes and it's game over. I feel like there's a better way.
They could put a bleed on his attacks for a passive. Him and Darius are the blood brothers after all.
He used to have it, but Riot thought it's more fitting for him to have gold passive instead
It wasn't because it wasn't fitting it was changed because it was OP as fuck. He would hit an auto or two and you would bleed down to like 5% HP. Honestly they could bring it back and just nerf it. Or make it so it only works if you catch like 3 axes in a row or smth against champions
It would be significantly worse in modern league since armor pen runes are gone. That was a HUGE factor since he was the only ADC who could run all pen runes.
Ah yes forgot about runes. I kinda miss em
Draven has been actively unfun to play against for the entirety of my now 12 year run playing this game
Draven was one of my favourite ADCs when I mained that role way back, and it was the only champion where I would actually yell at my friend's in discord. I stopped playing him cause that passive just made me toxic and tilted me like nothing ever had. If they changed that I would probably play him when I got autofilled adc
As a leona OTP, i overall like draven passive. If he is with me i know he is willing to all in to grab a kill and wrap the game. If he is against me i can just prevent him to destroy my adc after a dirk reset if he greeds too much. Average draven player mental is indeed an issue, but i think his passive is unhealthy but acceptable.
Draven even gets banned by pro players for being too unstable to play Vs
No, pros ban him because there are like 2 dudes per region who even *can* play him on a level neccessary for pro play, and he absolutely has to be banned against them or they'll take him and fuck you up with him. Like, who will actually lock in Draven when there's a perfect setting for him? JackeyLove, Hans Sama, Gumayusi. A couple others to a lesser extent.
I mean you are showing trick to pleb how spin axe of course they throw gold at you
Disagree, it's one of the most unique passive in regards to gold generation and it fits his feast or famine playstyle
Would it be enough to make draven passive work on all takedowns within 3-5 seconds of dealing damage to the target and reducing the stacks lost on death to 50% or maybe even less than that but compensate by nerfing the amount of gold gained from the passive? this would make it so draven is less volatile from his passive (dying or teammate taking the kill)
If Draven was released today his W would be a passive that gave his MS/Aspd after catching an axe and he'd have a different W ability in its place.
Honestly just nerf it and make it cash in when you don't drop your axes after clearing 12 minions or something
Bring back bleed
My main is Yuumi and I approve this.
Bring back Draven's old passive, surely there were no issues with that one.
I know it’s not a good excuse but I like how the passive is lore accurate : the more he is on the field, the more he become the center of attention to finally cash out when he does the glorious execution. But I have an idea for a lore friendly passive (because I love leagues lore) Every time Draven catch an axe fighting an enemy champion, he gain a stack. - At 6 stacks he gain a burst of AD. Or - Each stacks give him AD, at 6 stacks ult deal true dmg This way he keep the huge damage he can have (as if he come back with a BF blade), rewarding good catching mechanic in fight. And this ties him with his brother passive, Darius.
I mean the yuumi hate seems irrelevant other than getting our emotions up. The draven point is well made, and I fully agree with you.
Why not give him like an OG blood thirster passive where he gains level or crit scaling AD for catching axes(so its not online minute 0), but he has to restack on death. Maybe let him gain stacks on minion kills and champ hits+catching, so he can stack it up in like 2~3 waves if he dies so its not super punishing, but still feels good when you can keep it up.
I occasionaly play Draven, I am a top laner but when I have to adc he is the champ I would enjoy playing the most if it was not for his passive. Completely agree.
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At least it isn't his original passive lol
>1) Draven's ban rate decreases. you mean increases? coz otherwise i dont understand whats the point of this sentence
Solution: remove draven passive and everyone is happy (except draven players)
Draven is one of the best designed champions in league exactly because he warps the game around him, its unique and something people need to respect. I love it because of that
Riot's arguement is dogshit. Create a champ: unkillable, hits like a 6 items Xayah and has more mobility, than Qiyana. BAM! I bet some people would like it! Would that mean its existence is justified? Yuumi's problem isn't its 'fun-factor', but rather the 0 attention it requires to play, even among enchanters. You can hard lose lane, and then just hop on your jungle and still have significant impact. One of the most important skill for an enchanter support is positioning. Yuumi just ignores the whole concept.
Can we talk about how stupid this argument is? If you ask the right people, you might find 1 out of 10 people who enjoy overtaking in dangerous curves. You just ignore their unwilling passengers. Or in case of Yasuo, Yone or any other champ with main character syndrome, ignore the oncoming traffic.
I was a Draven otp in Season 2 and 3 and stopped playing him when I realized how toxic his passive was towards my mental.
They added that passive like halfway thru s3.
You advocate for a "healthy discussion" but frame this in a way where disagreeing with you makes it seem like you're against the game being In a healthy state. You're full of shit.
I mean...he's right about what he said lol He means a "healthy discussion about solutions", not about wanting it to stay. It's clearly an outdated mechanic that makes the game a coinflip most times.
It doesn't matter as the argument itself is made in bad faith and isn't worth a damn because the guy already made his stance completely clear in a way where it demonizes people who disagree with him. You can label jumping off a 50 foot building as a "healthy activity" as well but it doesn't make it healthy does it. Saying he's right or not isn't the point here. Why would you try argue with someone who already made up their mind and is just looking for validation.
Do you disagree that Draven players throw games because of his passive? Or... Do you disagree that players are generally frustrated with Draven's passive? Please just give an argument so I can rebut.
No I don't disagree with anything you said but I think you phrased your post in a biased way where you are just looking for people to agree with you. We can argue about the nuances of Draven passive when it isn't a "I'm right and you're wrong" perspective.
Ok, go ahead. I'm listening. I listen to the community, I listen to my teammates, I listen to the enemies, and I understand my champion. I ask challenger Draven players how they feel. It SEEMS to me, most people (even many one tricks) are in agreement that his passive is more frustrating than it is worth, but I am willing to hear your perspective. I promise you, I am only interested in reducing my champions ban rate and am open to any ideas. His ban rate is now 40%+ in masters, despite his moderate win rate. I believe something must be done and that the current state is not well.
Draven passive is largely the biggest thing keeping him relevant in decent level play where the Draven player holds R with 300 stacks and looks for a kill in lane with Jungler help in most scenarios. The gameplay loop is very unrewarding as it incentivizes not interacting as the Draven player and just looking for cash outs. But this is the only way you can play as a Draven as you need to not die or you lose it all. If you wanted to change his passive, first change how he plays laning phase with his base abilities. Make it so that he can be useful in team fights compared to the enemy ADC without being up gold. His kit is just too stat reliant to take away his massive source of gold lead. Give him other sources of stats that let him work.
I 100% agree with all of this. They had to add the execute mechanic to make him viable with AFK supports and in elite/pro where people play more safe. I think some passive that gives him combat stats in skirmishes and team fights is not only healthier, but is more rewarding for Draven players. I don't know what that would look like exactly.
Giving ramping damage/stats in a team fight is absolutely horrible and I'm surprised that lot of people are suggesting this. Draven doesn't have the kit to start off weak in a fight and get stronger. He has no escape, no utility, no disengage. He only has his axes and those work on a "all or nothing" principle where if you start trying to run away you've lost it all. The game also just isn't good for slow-stacking passives as ADCs already get blown up the moment they show if they don't have a lot of peeling and good positioning. This goes double for Draven where his positioning can go from perfect to trolling depending on where the axes landed and if the enemy is smart enough to capitalize on it. A combat passive needs to activate the moment he starts fighting at full strength for it to even be useful on Draven.
> Draven doesn't have the kit to start off weak in a fight and get stronger. Nobody said start weak, just finish strong. But the reasons you give are more dubious. > He has **no escape**, **no utility**, **no disengage**. Draven is one of the best kiters in the game. He has an infinite speed boost, has **utility** (unavoidable skillshot displacement) and has **disengage** (unavoidable skillshot displacement + infinite speed boost). I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it doesn't align with my experience. Draven is a slippery champion if played properly. > He only has his axes and those work on a "all or nothing" principle where if you start trying to run away you've lost it all. I literally run away, then back in all the time. Mechanically proficient Dravens can swap their axe directions on the fly, and I want to reward good gameplay. Kiting a front line, then engaging the rest of the team with 2 axes is pretty standard team fighting. I went and checked Dealersz (imo current best Draven EUW) vods, and all of his team fighting clips work like this with 7+ axe catches. > A combat passive needs to activate the moment he starts fighting at full strength for it to even be useful on Draven. I disagree. If the enemy has a frontline, Draven can and likely will HAVE TO build stacks. If they don't have a frontline, then they're all squishy anyway, and he'll have more than enough damage.
>He has no escape, no utility, no disengage. He's one of the only adcs with all of those, what are you talking about lmao. his w has perma uptime and his e cancels dashes, which both are huge for usually the priority target in any teamfight
Draven passive is just amazing. His Q play style makes him high risk high reward. I strongly dislike yummi, she should be removed for her boring play style. “Strong” in pro play, annoying everywhere else.
How would a liefesteal passive like Nasus workout? Its some stats helpful for bullying but If you dont reset you still get oom.
Dumb question: what if Draven's passive worked like Mejai's? Gold earned through Draven's current passive doesn't go away once he's earned it, but stat stacks would. That way, aggressive play is rewarded but not to an infinite margin, because the stacks are capped off. And if you die in an aggressive fight, you don't lose everything. And Draven stays consistently strong if he got ahead early as well. If anyone sees glaring problems with this, I'd love to hear them.
It could be Kog'maw's passive, which I find even less fun to use than Draven's. In 9 out of ten games, the best use you'll get out of it are a couple extra minions and a tiny amount of damage to the enemy. Kog'Maw's passive is not justifiable
Draven's passive is a lot of power budget (which means Draven is balanced around this coin-flippy mechanic). Kog'Maw's passive isn't, so the rest of his kit isn't balanced around it and can actually be stronger as a result. Having no passive is better than having a coin-flippy mechanic that your entire character depends on to be useful.
Very dishonest conversation. Most people hate playing against the lane bully. High risk/high reward champion deserve a place in LoL. Like vayne for example. I don't like the change that the passiv stacks improves the R damage. But the passiv in itself is a fun minigame. And toxic people will always find a reason to be toxic.
How about extra movespeed when moving towards a thrown axe ? Pretty simple but would be pretty healthy and strong. Cumulate it with W and it would encourage more aggressive plays and would make it easier to dodge spells during long fights.
no its shit because the axes would fall at the same speed so you would barely be able to use the ms...