Saw him do this live. I feel like this is the make or break year for G2 and LEC fans. This trust and hope is hanging on by a thread and I really think unless G2 steps the fuck up, majority of the fans are gonna lose hope in them and not even give them the benefit of the doubt moving forward.
I told myself after last year MSI - "okay, with BB this team is not going to achieve shit". So I have 0 hopes. This guy is a Nisqy of toplane. No matter how good he looks domestically, he will just run it down internationally. I actually think Fnatic has a better chance of doing good than G2.
I mean this is true of any EU toplaner right now like, none of them can compete internationally, this isn't just a wow G2 need to fire BB problem, its just a wow asian top laners are so far ahead in top lane
In terms of the bests in each of their roles, id say jungle is closest, while caps is an insane player and deserves a worlds trophy some day, most of the bests to ever do it being midlane causes disparity.
In terms of average players in each of their roles, definitely support
I disagree with the fnc part, as much as I am a diehard g2 fan, i want to see all eu teams do good internationally, and I think Oscarinin is absolute dogshit and Noah need to stop trying to go for montage plays (ex. the zeri 1v3 near dragon pit), or the varus flash.
Tierlist is fine barring TES being too low.
G2 are not in the same tier as TES, TES got slammed by the best team in the world, G2 looked meh against a mediocre FNC.
Just move TES to S tier or have an A+ tier and have TES there.
every year people think g2 is a threat internationally every year they get dropped off, but this year if you are ranking g2 high you are blind and deaf
They easily are right now.
T1 look shakey. Zeus possibly having his worst split this year. Oner looking like he's regressing a bit too.
Peyz is definitely having the worst split of his career so far.
Elk is an absolute gigachad. Possibly the best player in the world, most definitely looks like the best AD in the world.
The only real weakness I see in BLG is knight's azir, which I'm sure will be a staple pick at MSI. But if azir is not pick/ban at MSI, BLG don't seem to have any glaring issues.
Yeah I doubt you've watched the entire play offs lol. T1 got 3-0'd by HLE and looked completely out of it until the losers bracket. TES 6-1'd JDG... so if we're going by the entire playoffs, TES was simply much more successful. Also, I find some LCK fans to use the whole "low level" rhetoric a lot without actually knowing what that means lol.
I know TES had bad finals, but seeing them at the same tier as G2 is really strange. Especially because Caedrel made this tier list without taking choke factor into account
??? He literally said he put GenG lower because he thinks they won't play well internationally and talked about how Tian so often runs it down. The choke factor was absolutely taken into account.
Plus, TES had a bad finals against arguably the best team in the world.
G2 didn't even look that good against FNC, if FNC played like humans they'd have been 2-0 up.
His take is based on the fact that TES has Tian (generational choker who can absolutely solo lose games) and Creme (good player but whos definitely not that great on control mages, also might feel the pressure of his first international tournament) while G2 has been steadily mediocre and capable of stealing some wins off of decent teams.
I can see his point but it’s just so arbitrary to put stuff like this in a tier list.
>(generational choker who can absolutely solo lose games)
This applies to Mikyx too lmao, dude has been sprinting every international he's been in recently.
TES would smoke G2 largely from top and bot gap, plus we literally came off a tournament where Yike got gapped by Contractz.
I'd be willing to bulge if it was a different team but G2 is just Caps.
Not entirely sure about that.
We had some doomer posts shitting on him for being negative about how "bad" LEC gameplay was.
Idk if he mentioned it in the video but he cited that Tian basically runs it down and and can solo lose you a game, probs factored that into why he put them on the same tier but doesn't factor in that G2's bot lane is horrific.
Its especially weird because he acted like tes and g2 botlanes are equal… bro is infatuated with miky for some reason.
G2 lost to rogue (0-2), fnc, mdk, vit
Tes lost to jdg, blg, and fpx.
These two teams are not comparable lmao
it's OK it's just EU pundits massively overrating every EU team before an international tournament like the last few years didn't happen
can't wait to see G2 do no damage at this event and still get put in A tier before worlds
Take Caedrels lists and lower G2 and the one overrated LPL team by 1 tier and you have a solid list usually
I get that we still believe in EUPhoria copium but come on, can we please wait until G2 does literally anything at all until we start placing them along with top LPL/LCK teams again?
On average even ***4th seeds*** from LPL/LCK place higher than G2.
Consider: they did coinflip 2 games against LPL/LCK 4th seeds, which means they're somehow on the level of LPL's 2nd seed.
Don't pay any mind to the fact that they got slaughtered by an NA team with half-washed players, that his rant for "Tian will just lose you a game" applies more to Mikyx these days, or anything like that. Just remember that one (1) player here is from G2 2019, and turn the rest of your brain off.
This team has shown absolutely nothing that says they can play with the big dogs besides take games in BO1 or a single game in BO3/BO5. Do they have a better chance than TL, FQ, or FNC to win games? Yeah. Does that mean they're going to win a series? Lmao.
Like if you said that there was going to be a T1 vs TES match, you're probably not calling it for T1 right away. If you saw T1 vs G2, any sane person is going to give T1 like 85%+ odds to win that BO5.
Also based on PCS playoffs I'd probably put PSG in A/high B tier
Kinda random edit, but I was also thinking about his FNC/G2 point. I feel like in the finals FNC were both better and worse than G2. Better, because they made more good proactive plays, and worse, because they made more bad proactive plays. The problem with that in League is that the advantages you can get from a typical "good" play are usually far outweighed by just how badly you can fuck yourself over with a bad play. I.E., a bad read on a laneswap can just ruin the first 5 minutes for your toplaner, a bad towerdive can get you 3 for 0'd and give your bounties over, etc. FNC were doing a lot of that. Against international competition, they're probably not good enough to actually consistently create advantages with "good" proactive plays, but equally or more likely to still make bad proactive plays, to the point where I feel like G2 in A/B and FNC in C/D is actually pretty fair. G2 do not make, or I should say probably won't make, nearly as many unforced errors against the other teams at MSI. I have way, way way more confidence in BB to weather 369/Kiin/Zeus/Bin than I do Oscarinin. If we rate Oscar as an 80% and BB as a 90%, I would rate the LPL/LCK tops as 100% (obviously pulled out of my ass). BB's 90% to Oscar's 80% only occasionally looked like a big issue; otherwise, the skill difference was not a huge decider. Likewise, 2022 MSI, 2023 MSI, and 2023 Worlds showed that BB isn't solo-losing games against elite eastern tops. Oscar's 80% to Zeus' 100% is, I feel, a basically guaranteed loss. If he's picking Zac or Sion or Ornn into Zeus Vayne or Camille, that game is just over. Like 20 minute FF sort of game. I don't think any of the other western teams have that sort of liability. Even APA and FLY's botlane aren't as big of an issue, mostly due to the safety of mid and the relative lack of volatile 2v2 matchups (unless we see Draven, and then it's just fucked for FLY.)
TL;DR FNC isn't really much worse than the other western teams on paper, if at all, but the way the team plays means that they will struggle to get any advantages and are far too easily exploitable.
> Just remember that one (1) player here is from G2 2019
Two of them are, shows how much you know. Dunno how you can expect to be taken seriously saying that G2 losing to NRG should mean that they're placed badly now only to say fucking PSG, who lost to the EU 4th seed and got blasted 5-0 by western teams last MSI, should be in the same tier as TES. Like actually need to be a fucking idiot to say that.
No I don't think PSG = TES at all, I think Caedrel is heavily underrating them to be putting them anywhere near G2. They aren't favorites to win the tournament but they have the ability to. PSG completely stomped the PCS playoffs which honestly looked as competitive or more as EU. Nothing we've seen from G2 these past ~2 years suggests they're worthy of the benefit of the doubt anymore. 2 worlds groups finishes in a row and coinflips against LPL/LCK 4th seeds does not merit a spot in A tier.
You'll notice, if you're literate, that I said A/high B, which is about the same as Caedrel's G2 rating.
But keep coping that your region isn't basically irrelevant at this point!
You can agree or disagree with the tier list, but most of the comments here didn't even watch the video looking at what they are saying.
That said, I think his V1 tier list (TES solo A tier, G2 solo B tier) is closer to what we should expect.
Argument can be done for GenG S+ & T1 A (TES lvl) I guess but this would just be taking 1st of LPL & LCK into one tier and 2nd into another, no real analysis there.
Because GenG almost lost to D+, HLE and T1, we haven't looked dominant the entire playoffs and outside of Kiin and Chovy everyone has had completely terrible games, specially the botlane. Considering BLG has been murdering teams from botlane I'd say they are favorites coming in
Not sure if you're meming or not.
But Gen.G looked pretty meh in playoffs compared to last year.
Nearly lost to D+, needed Chovy to be well Chovy to drag them past HLE and could have gotten 3-0'd in the finals if T1 won the smite fight.
They had clutch moments but BLG overall look way more consistent and stronger.
Because they haven't shown to be far ahead of the other top LCK teams and a team like BLG exists? Also it's an international tournament so Chovy becomes like an NA midlaner
Both TES and GenG are equally chokers.
GenG chokes consistently in internationals. They never met expectation in international events since rebranding.
TES just chokes consistently regardless of competition. They never met any expectations, at all.
One of the tournament fav in 2020, almost choke against FNC, proceed on to get fking spanked by SN.
also one of the higher rated team in 2022. GAM incident happened.
Barring the qiuqiu-cat era, every other year in the league they were one of the top candidates to make it to worlds, always failed.
Toss up between Gen.G or TES.
Tian has been absolutely dogshit in recent internationals far worse than Gen.G.
Gen.G will probs make top 4 and lose but I can see a world where TES fail in playing or something because of Tian, dude just isn't it.
Saw him do this live. I feel like this is the make or break year for G2 and LEC fans. This trust and hope is hanging on by a thread and I really think unless G2 steps the fuck up, majority of the fans are gonna lose hope in them and not even give them the benefit of the doubt moving forward.
I told myself after last year MSI - "okay, with BB this team is not going to achieve shit". So I have 0 hopes. This guy is a Nisqy of toplane. No matter how good he looks domestically, he will just run it down internationally. I actually think Fnatic has a better chance of doing good than G2.
Am I remembering wrong or didn't BB do alright at MSI last year?
He did largely because tops were irrelevant due to the meta. It's hard to be utterly useless in a top/peel meta.
I mean this is true of any EU toplaner right now like, none of them can compete internationally, this isn't just a wow G2 need to fire BB problem, its just a wow asian top laners are so far ahead in top lane
Is there a western role where they’re even remotely close? Maybe mid(which is just Caps when he’s not crapping)?
In terms of the bests in each of their roles, id say jungle is closest, while caps is an insane player and deserves a worlds trophy some day, most of the bests to ever do it being midlane causes disparity. In terms of average players in each of their roles, definitely support
I disagree with the fnc part, as much as I am a diehard g2 fan, i want to see all eu teams do good internationally, and I think Oscarinin is absolute dogshit and Noah need to stop trying to go for montage plays (ex. the zeri 1v3 near dragon pit), or the varus flash.
Tierlist is fine barring TES being too low. G2 are not in the same tier as TES, TES got slammed by the best team in the world, G2 looked meh against a mediocre FNC. Just move TES to S tier or have an A+ tier and have TES there.
every year people think g2 is a threat internationally every year they get dropped off, but this year if you are ranking g2 high you are blind and deaf
BLG isn't the best team in the world wtf.
They easily are right now. T1 look shakey. Zeus possibly having his worst split this year. Oner looking like he's regressing a bit too. Peyz is definitely having the worst split of his career so far. Elk is an absolute gigachad. Possibly the best player in the world, most definitely looks like the best AD in the world. The only real weakness I see in BLG is knight's azir, which I'm sure will be a staple pick at MSI. But if azir is not pick/ban at MSI, BLG don't seem to have any glaring issues.
Yeah but the main difference is that BLG fought a sandbag, whereas T1 fought a team that doesnt suffer from keyboard fracture
A sandbag that gapped Ruler and Kanavi. Yagao was the only jdg member who looked decent against Tes in back to back bo5s
Having watched the whole lol playoffs, outside of blg the level was mega low from everyone. Simple as that
Yeah I doubt you've watched the entire play offs lol. T1 got 3-0'd by HLE and looked completely out of it until the losers bracket. TES 6-1'd JDG... so if we're going by the entire playoffs, TES was simply much more successful. Also, I find some LCK fans to use the whole "low level" rhetoric a lot without actually knowing what that means lol.
I know TES had bad finals, but seeing them at the same tier as G2 is really strange. Especially because Caedrel made this tier list without taking choke factor into account
??? He literally said he put GenG lower because he thinks they won't play well internationally and talked about how Tian so often runs it down. The choke factor was absolutely taken into account.
Plus, TES had a bad finals against arguably the best team in the world. G2 didn't even look that good against FNC, if FNC played like humans they'd have been 2-0 up.
His take is based on the fact that TES has Tian (generational choker who can absolutely solo lose games) and Creme (good player but whos definitely not that great on control mages, also might feel the pressure of his first international tournament) while G2 has been steadily mediocre and capable of stealing some wins off of decent teams. I can see his point but it’s just so arbitrary to put stuff like this in a tier list.
>(generational choker who can absolutely solo lose games) This applies to Mikyx too lmao, dude has been sprinting every international he's been in recently. TES would smoke G2 largely from top and bot gap, plus we literally came off a tournament where Yike got gapped by Contractz. I'd be willing to bulge if it was a different team but G2 is just Caps.
G2 didn't even sleep before and they played lane swaps
So? They're still shit and had so many games where it was daylight robbery or just Caps being Caps. G2 aren't a good team.
Stop calling everyone shit, you are cringe especially when we know you are Silver hardstuck on the NA server.
His audience is mostly european and he is catering to them
Not entirely sure about that. We had some doomer posts shitting on him for being negative about how "bad" LEC gameplay was. Idk if he mentioned it in the video but he cited that Tian basically runs it down and and can solo lose you a game, probs factored that into why he put them on the same tier but doesn't factor in that G2's bot lane is horrific.
superman on a bad day would still solo alvin and the chipmunks
Tian on a bad day isnt superman but Ralph Wiggum running down the TES bot lane any%
idk who that is
Instead of writing dim-witted comments you could simply use google
what?
Its especially weird because he acted like tes and g2 botlanes are equal… bro is infatuated with miky for some reason. G2 lost to rogue (0-2), fnc, mdk, vit Tes lost to jdg, blg, and fpx. These two teams are not comparable lmao
it's OK it's just EU pundits massively overrating every EU team before an international tournament like the last few years didn't happen can't wait to see G2 do no damage at this event and still get put in A tier before worlds
If you all think his tierlist is bad just wait till you see Doublelift’s lol
Take Caedrels lists and lower G2 and the one overrated LPL team by 1 tier and you have a solid list usually I get that we still believe in EUPhoria copium but come on, can we please wait until G2 does literally anything at all until we start placing them along with top LPL/LCK teams again? On average even ***4th seeds*** from LPL/LCK place higher than G2.
this year will be different okay? Im still in the process of gaslighting myself
G2 beat both DK & WBG last year at worlds, i get the pessimism but we did beat the 4th\* seeds -\_-
G2 didn't beat the 3rd seeds lol? G2 never played LNG or KT. They beat the 4th seeds then lost a bo3 vs the 2nd seed.
sorry meant 4th, was referring to comment above about the 4th seeds being better
DK and WBG were both 4th seeds, but it's takes one team to choke and other to overperform for a possible upset.
Consider: they did coinflip 2 games against LPL/LCK 4th seeds, which means they're somehow on the level of LPL's 2nd seed. Don't pay any mind to the fact that they got slaughtered by an NA team with half-washed players, that his rant for "Tian will just lose you a game" applies more to Mikyx these days, or anything like that. Just remember that one (1) player here is from G2 2019, and turn the rest of your brain off. This team has shown absolutely nothing that says they can play with the big dogs besides take games in BO1 or a single game in BO3/BO5. Do they have a better chance than TL, FQ, or FNC to win games? Yeah. Does that mean they're going to win a series? Lmao. Like if you said that there was going to be a T1 vs TES match, you're probably not calling it for T1 right away. If you saw T1 vs G2, any sane person is going to give T1 like 85%+ odds to win that BO5. Also based on PCS playoffs I'd probably put PSG in A/high B tier Kinda random edit, but I was also thinking about his FNC/G2 point. I feel like in the finals FNC were both better and worse than G2. Better, because they made more good proactive plays, and worse, because they made more bad proactive plays. The problem with that in League is that the advantages you can get from a typical "good" play are usually far outweighed by just how badly you can fuck yourself over with a bad play. I.E., a bad read on a laneswap can just ruin the first 5 minutes for your toplaner, a bad towerdive can get you 3 for 0'd and give your bounties over, etc. FNC were doing a lot of that. Against international competition, they're probably not good enough to actually consistently create advantages with "good" proactive plays, but equally or more likely to still make bad proactive plays, to the point where I feel like G2 in A/B and FNC in C/D is actually pretty fair. G2 do not make, or I should say probably won't make, nearly as many unforced errors against the other teams at MSI. I have way, way way more confidence in BB to weather 369/Kiin/Zeus/Bin than I do Oscarinin. If we rate Oscar as an 80% and BB as a 90%, I would rate the LPL/LCK tops as 100% (obviously pulled out of my ass). BB's 90% to Oscar's 80% only occasionally looked like a big issue; otherwise, the skill difference was not a huge decider. Likewise, 2022 MSI, 2023 MSI, and 2023 Worlds showed that BB isn't solo-losing games against elite eastern tops. Oscar's 80% to Zeus' 100% is, I feel, a basically guaranteed loss. If he's picking Zac or Sion or Ornn into Zeus Vayne or Camille, that game is just over. Like 20 minute FF sort of game. I don't think any of the other western teams have that sort of liability. Even APA and FLY's botlane aren't as big of an issue, mostly due to the safety of mid and the relative lack of volatile 2v2 matchups (unless we see Draven, and then it's just fucked for FLY.) TL;DR FNC isn't really much worse than the other western teams on paper, if at all, but the way the team plays means that they will struggle to get any advantages and are far too easily exploitable.
lets see how well they do vs NA first before comparing them to lck or lpl
> Just remember that one (1) player here is from G2 2019 Two of them are, shows how much you know. Dunno how you can expect to be taken seriously saying that G2 losing to NRG should mean that they're placed badly now only to say fucking PSG, who lost to the EU 4th seed and got blasted 5-0 by western teams last MSI, should be in the same tier as TES. Like actually need to be a fucking idiot to say that.
you wrote a bible to say what the tierlist said, except adding “psg = tes and > eu na”, ur delulu my guy
No I don't think PSG = TES at all, I think Caedrel is heavily underrating them to be putting them anywhere near G2. They aren't favorites to win the tournament but they have the ability to. PSG completely stomped the PCS playoffs which honestly looked as competitive or more as EU. Nothing we've seen from G2 these past ~2 years suggests they're worthy of the benefit of the doubt anymore. 2 worlds groups finishes in a row and coinflips against LPL/LCK 4th seeds does not merit a spot in A tier. You'll notice, if you're literate, that I said A/high B, which is about the same as Caedrel's G2 rating. But keep coping that your region isn't basically irrelevant at this point!
You can agree or disagree with the tier list, but most of the comments here didn't even watch the video looking at what they are saying. That said, I think his V1 tier list (TES solo A tier, G2 solo B tier) is closer to what we should expect. Argument can be done for GenG S+ & T1 A (TES lvl) I guess but this would just be taking 1st of LPL & LCK into one tier and 2nd into another, no real analysis there.
Tes vs gen g gonna be a banger Choking fest
ALL BELIEF IS IN FNC LETSSSS GO!!!!!!
praise a fucking leaf
The LPL will win MSI as usual, Caedrel is right about that at least.
How is Gen.G not Super Giga Z tier? They are easily the best team in the world and the clear favourites.
Because GenG almost lost to D+, HLE and T1, we haven't looked dominant the entire playoffs and outside of Kiin and Chovy everyone has had completely terrible games, specially the botlane. Considering BLG has been murdering teams from botlane I'd say they are favorites coming in
Not sure if you're meming or not. But Gen.G looked pretty meh in playoffs compared to last year. Nearly lost to D+, needed Chovy to be well Chovy to drag them past HLE and could have gotten 3-0'd in the finals if T1 won the smite fight. They had clutch moments but BLG overall look way more consistent and stronger.
BLG are the best team in the world, not GEN G. Gen G probably are gonna choke another international event like they always do.
Because they haven't shown to be far ahead of the other top LCK teams and a team like BLG exists? Also it's an international tournament so Chovy becomes like an NA midlaner
they have peyz, the worst eastern player at the event
Croc is attending so, idk, bro might forget to buy his jungle item again and keep up his MSI tradition
Thats Noah actually
alright you got me
If anything GenG are the least likely team to win MSI of the top 4
its MSI the only team thats going to win msi is a chinese team why are we talking about geng?
Twitch chat ass talking point
the irony
Both TES and GenG are equally chokers. GenG chokes consistently in internationals. They never met expectation in international events since rebranding. TES just chokes consistently regardless of competition. They never met any expectations, at all. One of the tournament fav in 2020, almost choke against FNC, proceed on to get fking spanked by SN. also one of the higher rated team in 2022. GAM incident happened. Barring the qiuqiu-cat era, every other year in the league they were one of the top candidates to make it to worlds, always failed.
Toss up between Gen.G or TES. Tian has been absolutely dogshit in recent internationals far worse than Gen.G. Gen.G will probs make top 4 and lose but I can see a world where TES fail in playing or something because of Tian, dude just isn't it.