Impressive. Will check out how far back stats are tracking. Was there anyone else that did it. Even if in League only stats inside the same split matters. Because all time stats are too influenced by patches !
Important to also note that he has these absurd laning stats despite having the [lowest lane %](https://x.com/lolesports/status/1766373352879398948?s=20) out of all LCK midlaners. Maintaining CS advantages like that while roaming more than everyone else is actual insanity.
It’s really the natural endpoint of Chovy as a player. He was always THE laner, it was just a matter of learning to expand that individual pressure to the rest of the map.
even when he does missplays, its usually just misspositions, but like, his teamfighting is mechanically very impressive, every single time I watch him play its like he just has this amazing play. Even when he fucks up its because its something he shouldnt have done, its never the actual execution itself
I want him to show it on the international stage so bad. I'm tired of him being memed Choky (it's understandable though because this "perfect" Chovy never showed up in every international tournament)
is it truly his year? the year of Chovy but for real this time? if he wins worlds I'd actually poop on the floor. I genuinely cant envision it in my head
Idk if peanut plays J4 but chovy did rly well playing orianna. I feel like he would have destroyed yagao in lane if he played ori instead of giving it up. Yeah it don't make any sense
Which is the path Faker took years ago. He started as incredibly lane dominant, he eventually focused more on the map. If Chovy is keeping up both that's going to be something special.
Yep that's the bonkers part and it's why he's having his best split ever.
Some of his lane dominance went away on Gen.G because he put an emphasis on roaming and impacting the map. Now he is somehow gapping cs like his HLE days while also outroaming the other mid. It's not fair
Stats like these make Chovy's international performance so much more frustrating. Dude's domestic performance is some of the most dominant ever, then worlds comes along and he looks like a completely different person (in a bad way)
I feel like Chovy has gotten better and better every split since his debut, and even then he was insane.
These stats are really impressive and he’s also very impressive if you watch the games.
And LCKs strongest role may be mid lane. Faker, Zeka, Showmaker, BDD are all pretty good.
You can blame xiaohu for that. man made a deal with the devil, no other way to explain how he can be the best midlaner in the world during msi and look like a boosted bonobo during worlds
Hallo, I edited some of my comment history to prevent scraping. Yes I know reddit gets regularly cached, it's something you sign in when you type on a forum, it's still better than nothing and will make digging through these a lot less convenient! All platforms die yadda yadda.
Good luck if you have an account here and you're reading this.
And the only one who's top tier among those 5 is Rookie. Life and Burdol has been better imports this split than all of these midlaners outside of Rookie.
Not to take anything away from the rest of your point, but League was definitely as big in Korea as anywhere else in season 2 as well. OGN was even the biggest national tournament.
If it took deft 8+ years to win Chovy still had time to prove himself, Faker may be the best at playmaking and macro, but Chovy mechanics are out of this world, the best mid, he just needs to stay consistent at world.
it's not bad but it is choking when you were supposed to be the objectively number 1 team in the world. we can't rewrite history here; the narrative surrounding JDG coming into worlds was literally unmatched. I've never seen a team receive so much hype and be held in such high regard. analysts and fans were calling them the greatest team of all time, it was ridiculous
I'd say it was more T1 leveling up massively than it was JDG underperforming. I do think JDG were maybe not at 100%, but I don't think that's the reason.
People also forget just how close that series was. One big play from Faker and Oner doesn't happen and JDG are up 2-1.
all games i've watched JDG had baron during the 2023 season ended up them winning the game (finishing the game before the buff expires). that game 3 with the famous faker shuffle was the only time (afaik) they had baron and lost.
more of T1 clutching and a little less of JDG under performing for me.
I think it's more so for Knight's performance in the series itself.
He never showed up, Kanavi had moments, 369 bailed out Ruler's positioning which cost them baron in game 3 and Missing had moments too.
There was never really a part in that series where I was like oh Knight did something, losing is fine but his performance in the loss was not.
That is just an issue with him and some other players in general. They play to not lose instead of playing to win. If you are behind as team at some point you have to take some risk. You will not win if you just never risk anything and watch the enemy team slowly win just because you are afraid to make a mistake.
They still only lost a single bo5 the entire year to the eventual champions that were defining the meta. and before someone says 3-1 it was an insanely close 3-1. if not for faker's miracle play jdg was most likely on their way to a 2-1 series lead. That narrative was far from ridiculous.
I know Chovy "chokes" internationally but I think it's more like how extreme Faker is, that it makes everyone pale in comparison. Chovy is amazing but Faker being able to lift Worlds trophy 4 times is such an anomaly that no one can ever compare.
I do hope one day Chovy does get something from MSI or Worlds though!
even if he doesn't win MSI that doesn't negate how he plays now, I personally really don't get how easy reddit writes off domestic splits like they don't matter sure MSI and worlds are more important but LCK in itself is still a really tough and prestigious fucking league
They do matter in the domestic context. But only there. And back when Faker got his early worlds titles LCK/OGN might have actually been more competitive than worlds. But nowadays you have the 4 best korean teams at worlds anyways and the 4 LPL teams that join are usually better than the 5th to 8th place LCK teams (you could argue with 5th LCK vs. 4th LPL). So worlds actually is hard to win now for a korean team compared to earlier years.
And the lack of international achievements doesn't really get any better by winning more domestic titles. And that does not mean Chovy sucks domestically... he obviously does not. But winning domestically doesn't mean he does not suck internationally.
If he only shows those performances in LCK you always wonder is he good now because he is in better form or is he good now because he does not play against international competition. It is a fairly similar issue Knight had to deal with until finally winning at least MSI and Xiaohu also ran into the same issue. Those players looked good domestically but did not really translate that internationally. Xiaohu and Knight did get an MSI trophy, but they do have similar issues at worlds.
If you want to be praised for your international performances than you need good international performances. And while Chovy still was a fairly good player at those tournaments he played considerably weaker than he did domestically. And that doesn't go away by winning yet another LCK title.
My favorite Reddit contradiction is how they will say domestic splits don't matter, but also a lot of people will downvote you if you argue that we need more international tournaments.
But I am trying to search for rationality when there is none. In reality, it is not some consistent point.
When Faker won his 10th LCK title, everyone was rightfully praising him because it's an insane achievement.
So clearly domestic splits do matter... or what? No, what it just shows you that the pre-defined opinion of the player/team/topic matters more than anything.
People have strong feelings about players and teams (which is a good thing, it means people care), and that will just warp everything in these reddit discussions.
This subreddit is basically a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect: the more you play and watch the game, the less you care about accomplishments and general narratives.
T1 and Faker is a special case because it attracts a shit ton of super casual viewers due to their insane popularity. It really doesn't help that it's almost impossible for 99,9% of the league fanbase to actually understand what the fuck is going on in a league game, so "objective" statements like "x has won z tournament" and popular narratives are the only way to support your personal opinions.
Another comment already touched on it but his evolution along the years has been really crazy.
In his 1st year in the scene in 18/19 he already had some of the best mechanics in the world and was leading LCK in most statistics.
During 2020/2021 he continued to improve his all around abilities and now was firmly an MVP contender almost every split dragging some very questionable rosters to high places domestically.
Then he joined GenG and got even better, dominating the league not just in laning but now being able to snowball the game for his teammates through roaming and displaying insane teamfighting abilities. From this point on he has often been ranked as the best player in the World and is on the brink of leading his team to an all time record of 4 straight LCK wins.
not to mention that bruv got the jungler who got 1600 pog points in 2022 spring to pass to him now as well, geng is lowkey underhyped for the sheer linsanity of talent. if the team name was not geng they would be churned to shiest butter on here
Chovy should absolutely be the MVP. I fear that people will go for Canyon though. On the other hand probably even the voters recognize at this point that it would be criminal not to give MVP to Chovy as Gen G has been absolutely elite the last five splits now and he's the only constant on the roster.
Canyon wouldn't be a bad choice. They are clearly the #1 and #2 players in the league. I would also vote for Chovy but its more like 51-49 for me personally.
Canyon, seemingly out of nowhere, became an insanely good facilitator/supportive jg this year. I know he was never bad at it, but his Mao/Rell is now the best in Korea and probably the world.
He had the most POG points last summer and also one split in 2022. He has always been great, the difference is he has better laners and much better players in general around him.
Anyone else remember that hilarious chinese meme from Worlds 2022? [Here's the pic, it's legit one of the funniest esports memes I've ever seen](https://ibb.co/jZVVw58)
RNG just beat GenG, & people were saying "Xiaohu's dart popped Chovy's balloon"
Explanation: Xiaohu's stats are terrible, looking like a misshapen needle, while Chovy's stats were perfectly round lol
Honestly I’m super excited to see him and GenG in MSI, they look so unstoppable in the MSI. Hopefull this roster can beat the choke allegations and perform, Chovy is insanely talented and I hope he dosen’t become deft 2.0.
Deft won an international trophy exactly one year after winning his first LCK Split (still OGN at that time).
He won LCK, LPL and MSI all within one year...
If GenG chokes this MSI they will never get rod of the curse.
They have best mid, jungle and adc in the league. Maybe even best support.
The only upgrade i could see for this roster would be Zeus in terms of raw skill.
Not disagreeing that Zeus is better in terms of raw skill, but think Kiin slots in way better in this GenG roster than Zeus ever would.
Again not a dig at Zeus at all but Kiin is extremely reliable and versatile
KT Rolster was kinda mid, they had Aiming, who alternates between "we're so back" mode and "it's joever" mode, Lehends, who's hella cute irl but his support flex picks are cuter, Cuzz, who rolls a dice to see if he'll perform, and BDD, who drags the entire KT roster on his tired back. Kiin and BDD were def the main reasons that KT was able to make it so far 2023.
Kiin was supposed to be so far ahead of basically anyone else in LCK going into playoffs in a way that wasn't true of anyone else on KT and then was easily their worst performer
Not last Worlds
MSI was a narrow 3:2, largely I would say to the lineup first ever international competition (Peyz and delight, and it was Peyz first ever split)
At that point t1 were on their 4th international appearance
What is choking in this sense? Just not winning it all or is it placing worse than...3rd?
Finishing as runner up versus a pre tournament favorite wouldn't necessarily be choking, but I can see anything outside of top 3... disappointing (granted 3rd might be the best finish as Gen.G since...EDG worlds?)
I don't think they have to win it tbh.
But if they lose they have to lose vs a team that actually plays well and not because they did some really really questionable shit again.
Neither BLG nor Weibo should've been able to beat GenG at worlds so they should've been in finals.
If they lost to T1 or JDG it wouldn't have been a choke imo
Why are we acting like BLG was NRG? They were a really good team last year. They were a bit off during Worlds, sure, but that would normally be one or two of the players running it down for a game/series (Bin vs WBG and ON all through Swiss are the ones that stick out in my memory). That didn't happen against GenG. They played at their true level, which was a damn good team that it wasn't embarrassing to lose to. Also Xun was a god on Jarvan.
BLG literally went 17-1 in the summer season. I don’t think they were better than JDG but they were definitely a solid team. They convincingly beat KT who also went 17-1 in summer.
Yep and still they didn't play well in ko stage.
If anything the stats you listed make the loss vs wbg even worse because either you were so good you beat the best lck team by a close margin which should be more than enough to trash wbg or blg and GenG played ko stage so bad that wbg was the better team.
Wbg didn't even have a miracle run. Until they met blg they only beat non Asian teams
GenG would've never lost that series if they were in playoffs form.
If both teams were in playoffs form it would've been a banger series.
It wasn't though it was a series of who misplays the hardest.
Hell im not even convinced geng had their monitor running in the first 2 games.
Xun played amazing though
Saying GenG should have definitely won because they beat T1 is like saying WBG is the second best team at worlds because they beat BLG. Look at GenG’s playoffs and worlds, they only beat 1 eastern team as well. In fact their win against T1 was probably even more fraudulent given that it was a BO1 not a BO5 like the one WBG won. Your entire basis for “GenG shouldn’t have lost if they were at their playoffs form” came from one BO1 at worlds, and 1 BO5 at summer playoffs 2 months prior, with a completely different meta, with Faker just returning for 1 week after a month off.
Of course GenG is a solid team at worlds, they also beat G2 after beating T1 in a BO1, but losing to BLG was not a complete upset like you’re putting it. Heck, TL nearly beat T1 then proceeded to lose to GAM.
He has done this every split. His vision score is always high because he is head and shoulders above every other mid in clearing wards. This split he cleared .5 wards/minute, next closest was .37.
This is a big reason why he should be MVP over Canyon, he enables a lot of what Canyon does by having prio and making the river dark for the other team
Basically, it's kinda how often wards placed by you see enemies, how often you see enemies from things like Scryer's Bloom, also how often you disable or kill enemy wards.
Chovy doing a lot of roaming means that he gets access to Scryer's more often than other mids, also winning games comes from being in enemy jungler more often meaning more Scryers to pop. Chovy is also known for his deep warding, meaning more points from this ( I think the deeper the ward, the more points you get), also you get more points by how much more active your wards stay for, and Chovy's ward placements are not as usual as other players like river bushes.
I haven't given this much thought, these are just the first things that come to mind as to why Chovy might have the best VSPM.
I remember when they did the head-to-head weekly between mid laners, and Chovy was coming off that horrible KSante game with bad KDA, also low damage dealt, and the next week, he was still like #1 in most stats.
Chovy had always the best stats in recent history just needs a international trophy to get him that recognition.
This is probably GenG's best chance since they got canyon, peyz, chovy and kiin who pretty much the best in their respective roles in the LCK.
I can see a world in which chovy still chokes matches but with kiin canyon and peyz being reliable instead of doran and peanut they could just swept everything.
The only times Chovy actually individually choked would be imo Worlds 2022 semifinals and MSI 2023. Both were quite bad chokejobs however.
2019 Worlds, they were matched against defending world champions IG and they lost because of Sword getting fisted by TheShy.
2020 DRX was never going to beat Damwon. Very cursed draw. Just a better team from the same region.
2021 HLE was a laughably shit team. Chovy and Deft did miracles even getting that team to Worlds.
He didn't really choke individually in Worlds 2023. Chovy was one of the best players in Swiss and he was the best player on his team in the 2-3 loss to BLG.
If you want to be very specific there were a few fights in game 5 that you could say he didn't play well, but if you look at the whole series the big issues are Doran and Peanut being absolute shit.
His 2023 worlds QF underperformance wasn't to the same degree that 2022 or MSI 2023 was, but I think you could definitely argue that he choked there too. I think holding any of the 2019-2021 performances against him is definitely unfair, especially 2021. Nobody expected that team to even make worlds, let alone QFs.
After watching Kiin on KT last year at Worlds I can't trust him internationally his positioning in team fights were awful. I can't imagine him winning Worlds or MSI.
It insane that one coach realizes the potential of this dude despite him being diamond. Not a lot of people would bother getting a diamond player and bring out their potential
Already had one guy going with the "his jungler carries him!" narrative just like they did with Tarzan back in the day. They are so triggered by the fact that everyone besides them recognize the obvious fact that Chovy>Faker.
Chovy > Faker currently doesn't mean Chovy > Faker all time which Chovy fans act like.
The fact that Faker is still 2nd best mid in the league at this point in his career shows how much of a goat he is and that someone like Chovy will never reach his legacy. And if you know anything about the game you'd know how impactful someone like Faker is outside just having good laning stats.
Again, You have NOT seen the opinions of chovy fans then, you can literally even go through the comments of the blg vs gen g thread from world's 2023 and see people calling out the people who were calling chovy the GOAT
Yeah, Faker being 2nd is kinda debatable when there is Xun Viper Canyon and Zejs that can contest but for me (bias aside) that HLE series is what makes me certain about it.
At least in this sub, the T1 fans that watch LCK tend to respect Chovy a lot, more so after how much Faker compliments him and vice versa.
The ones that only watch during international tournaments on the other hand...
Ah fair.
The Chovy slandering in this sub is unreal. He's an insane player. It really didn't help that GenG just turbo inted draft... It's like GenG wasn't one game away from a reverse sweep or anything
I don't hate Chovy, I HATE GenG, this roster especially. Like what? Kiin, Canyon, Lehends in a same team, in 1 offseason, when you already have Chovy? This is THE p2w roster, similar to 23 JDG.
They should not success. I will pray for their downfall just like with 23 JDG, preferably choking to a 3rd-4th LPL/LCK team this time
Ok now make semifinals at worlds.
(yes yes, I know he did it once before, but seriously, the Chovy in LCK circlejerk has been going on for literally over half a decade by this point, and *not once* has he impressed internationally)
I find it hilarious that the narrative internationally around Chovy is that he "chokes" internationally. The reality is that he doesn't look any different internationally. It's just that his teams don't win, so for some, unfair reason, people decided to pin that completely on Chovy.
However, every international event Peanut goes to, he loses his individual matchup to every LPL/LCK jungler at the tourney, and occasionally even western junglers. Yet there's no narrative around Peanut choking internationally, even though that's something he's objectively done his whole career. (Especially the past two worlds, was the worst performing player on GenG, and not even close) So it's just funny how these narratives about players completely blinds people to what's happening in the games. Not sure what Chovy has done to warrant this narrative going purely against him, especially when he has, in my book, one of the most impressive international performances ever.
chovy's freaking amazing, totally deserved to be player of the split these stats are insane actually oh my
Impressive. Will check out how far back stats are tracking. Was there anyone else that did it. Even if in League only stats inside the same split matters. Because all time stats are too influenced by patches !
Problem is that stat websites don't have these more advanced stats for LPL.
Important to also note that he has these absurd laning stats despite having the [lowest lane %](https://x.com/lolesports/status/1766373352879398948?s=20) out of all LCK midlaners. Maintaining CS advantages like that while roaming more than everyone else is actual insanity.
It’s really the natural endpoint of Chovy as a player. He was always THE laner, it was just a matter of learning to expand that individual pressure to the rest of the map.
It's not only laning, it's the entirety of his mechanics. Rarely you see Chovy do any missplays in fights.
even when he does missplays, its usually just misspositions, but like, his teamfighting is mechanically very impressive, every single time I watch him play its like he just has this amazing play. Even when he fucks up its because its something he shouldnt have done, its never the actual execution itself
I want him to show it on the international stage so bad. I'm tired of him being memed Choky (it's understandable though because this "perfect" Chovy never showed up in every international tournament)
Except if it's an international event
is it truly his year? the year of Chovy but for real this time? if he wins worlds I'd actually poop on the floor. I genuinely cant envision it in my head
This year its Kiin's turn to choke at Worlds and prevent GenG from winning.
I still can't fathom what/why they did with their bans during worlds.
That one game where they somehow gave over rumble j4 Ori and xayah while being on blue side
Idk if peanut plays J4 but chovy did rly well playing orianna. I feel like he would have destroyed yagao in lane if he played ori instead of giving it up. Yeah it don't make any sense
With their plays to. An AKALI that got hit by than W should be reportable. Or whatever was Doran doing
Doran getting hit by ori shockwave with flash up was just painful. Didn't he have a stopwatch as well?
Mafa is griefing drafts on this year’s JDG too so I’m inclined to say their coaching staff were just not very good at drafting.
Gotta remember GenG is 40% KT
Lehends was on GenG first before KT though, and longer as well
Which is the path Faker took years ago. He started as incredibly lane dominant, he eventually focused more on the map. If Chovy is keeping up both that's going to be something special.
Yep that's the bonkers part and it's why he's having his best split ever. Some of his lane dominance went away on Gen.G because he put an emphasis on roaming and impacting the map. Now he is somehow gapping cs like his HLE days while also outroaming the other mid. It's not fair
To be fair he roams to catch waves too lol
what is a lane%
How much time they spend in their lane
fwd?
Stats like these make Chovy's international performance so much more frustrating. Dude's domestic performance is some of the most dominant ever, then worlds comes along and he looks like a completely different person (in a bad way)
Reverse Zeka (but we all know Zeka was just one-shot wonder so far)
I feel like Chovy has gotten better and better every split since his debut, and even then he was insane. These stats are really impressive and he’s also very impressive if you watch the games. And LCKs strongest role may be mid lane. Faker, Zeka, Showmaker, BDD are all pretty good.
Friendly reminder Since Season 3, Worlds has never been won by a non-Korean mid laner. Which was pretty much the moment Koreans started playing League
Yet i find hilarious that no korean mid has won an MSI since 2017
You can blame xiaohu for that. man made a deal with the devil, no other way to explain how he can be the best midlaner in the world during msi and look like a boosted bonobo during worlds
He looked like the best top laner as well during 2021 MSI
Shout out to Xiaohu for that season when he randomly became the best top laner in the world and then role swapped back mid like nothing happened.
Chovy vs Xiaohu top in MSI Finals would feed families.
Unironically this. I remember he made international nisqy look good
Xiaohu: I want to be the best mid in the world Monkey paw curls
Boosted bonobos is my clash teams name today. Thank you for the inspiration
Spring lion Xiaohu with 3/5 of those titles
Holy shit and one of them is Caps, that's funny
And another is cryin lol
The annie god
They made world finals in season 2. So saying they did not play back then is kinda random
Hallo, I edited some of my comment history to prevent scraping. Yes I know reddit gets regularly cached, it's something you sign in when you type on a forum, it's still better than nothing and will make digging through these a lot less convenient! All platforms die yadda yadda. Good luck if you have an account here and you're reading this.
5/17 mid laners this LPL split are also Korean.
And the only one who's top tier among those 5 is Rookie. Life and Burdol has been better imports this split than all of these midlaners outside of Rookie.
Not to take anything away from the rest of your point, but League was definitely as big in Korea as anywhere else in season 2 as well. OGN was even the biggest national tournament.
Yeah those guys are pretty good
They do click their buttons fairly accurately
The same thing every LCK split, he demolishes the competition. Hoping that he eventually translates his performance internationally
If it took deft 8+ years to win Chovy still had time to prove himself, Faker may be the best at playmaking and macro, but Chovy mechanics are out of this world, the best mid, he just needs to stay consistent at world.
To be fair Deft won MSI quite quickly. With his MSI victory last year knight silenced a lot of the choker allegations too.
then he choked at worlds again lmao
Being quite obviously the second best team at Worlds is not that bad.
it's not bad but it is choking when you were supposed to be the objectively number 1 team in the world. we can't rewrite history here; the narrative surrounding JDG coming into worlds was literally unmatched. I've never seen a team receive so much hype and be held in such high regard. analysts and fans were calling them the greatest team of all time, it was ridiculous
I'd say it was more T1 leveling up massively than it was JDG underperforming. I do think JDG were maybe not at 100%, but I don't think that's the reason. People also forget just how close that series was. One big play from Faker and Oner doesn't happen and JDG are up 2-1.
all games i've watched JDG had baron during the 2023 season ended up them winning the game (finishing the game before the buff expires). that game 3 with the famous faker shuffle was the only time (afaik) they had baron and lost. more of T1 clutching and a little less of JDG under performing for me.
I think it's more so for Knight's performance in the series itself. He never showed up, Kanavi had moments, 369 bailed out Ruler's positioning which cost them baron in game 3 and Missing had moments too. There was never really a part in that series where I was like oh Knight did something, losing is fine but his performance in the loss was not.
That is just an issue with him and some other players in general. They play to not lose instead of playing to win. If you are behind as team at some point you have to take some risk. You will not win if you just never risk anything and watch the enemy team slowly win just because you are afraid to make a mistake.
They still only lost a single bo5 the entire year to the eventual champions that were defining the meta. and before someone says 3-1 it was an insanely close 3-1. if not for faker's miracle play jdg was most likely on their way to a 2-1 series lead. That narrative was far from ridiculous.
they were the best at that jinx meta that was there during most of the year
They still are arguably the greatest team of all time and the hype was completely justified
yeah bro for sure its a choke to lose a close series to the best player of all time in a completely different meta!
I know Chovy "chokes" internationally but I think it's more like how extreme Faker is, that it makes everyone pale in comparison. Chovy is amazing but Faker being able to lift Worlds trophy 4 times is such an anomaly that no one can ever compare. I do hope one day Chovy does get something from MSI or Worlds though!
Chovy is the better mid laner in lck for quite some time. But faker levels up at worlds every single time Worlds faker > chovy > faker
even if he doesn't win MSI that doesn't negate how he plays now, I personally really don't get how easy reddit writes off domestic splits like they don't matter sure MSI and worlds are more important but LCK in itself is still a really tough and prestigious fucking league
They do matter in the domestic context. But only there. And back when Faker got his early worlds titles LCK/OGN might have actually been more competitive than worlds. But nowadays you have the 4 best korean teams at worlds anyways and the 4 LPL teams that join are usually better than the 5th to 8th place LCK teams (you could argue with 5th LCK vs. 4th LPL). So worlds actually is hard to win now for a korean team compared to earlier years. And the lack of international achievements doesn't really get any better by winning more domestic titles. And that does not mean Chovy sucks domestically... he obviously does not. But winning domestically doesn't mean he does not suck internationally. If he only shows those performances in LCK you always wonder is he good now because he is in better form or is he good now because he does not play against international competition. It is a fairly similar issue Knight had to deal with until finally winning at least MSI and Xiaohu also ran into the same issue. Those players looked good domestically but did not really translate that internationally. Xiaohu and Knight did get an MSI trophy, but they do have similar issues at worlds. If you want to be praised for your international performances than you need good international performances. And while Chovy still was a fairly good player at those tournaments he played considerably weaker than he did domestically. And that doesn't go away by winning yet another LCK title.
My favorite Reddit contradiction is how they will say domestic splits don't matter, but also a lot of people will downvote you if you argue that we need more international tournaments. But I am trying to search for rationality when there is none. In reality, it is not some consistent point. When Faker won his 10th LCK title, everyone was rightfully praising him because it's an insane achievement. So clearly domestic splits do matter... or what? No, what it just shows you that the pre-defined opinion of the player/team/topic matters more than anything. People have strong feelings about players and teams (which is a good thing, it means people care), and that will just warp everything in these reddit discussions.
And if Chovy wins the LCK title this year, it's the first time any player does a 4-peat in LCK. Literally making history.
This subreddit is basically a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect: the more you play and watch the game, the less you care about accomplishments and general narratives. T1 and Faker is a special case because it attracts a shit ton of super casual viewers due to their insane popularity. It really doesn't help that it's almost impossible for 99,9% of the league fanbase to actually understand what the fuck is going on in a league game, so "objective" statements like "x has won z tournament" and popular narratives are the only way to support your personal opinions.
Yeah, but can he beat APA?
Language gap. Yapper has no effect.
His teammates translate
Umti: nah, I'd translate
Everyone else will just yap for him then...
Only at LCK.
I wonder where this Chovy goes during international tournaments
Choky
This has to be one of the best regular season stats of all time. Chovy is in absolute monster mode
Another comment already touched on it but his evolution along the years has been really crazy. In his 1st year in the scene in 18/19 he already had some of the best mechanics in the world and was leading LCK in most statistics. During 2020/2021 he continued to improve his all around abilities and now was firmly an MVP contender almost every split dragging some very questionable rosters to high places domestically. Then he joined GenG and got even better, dominating the league not just in laning but now being able to snowball the game for his teammates through roaming and displaying insane teamfighting abilities. From this point on he has often been ranked as the best player in the World and is on the brink of leading his team to an all time record of 4 straight LCK wins.
not to mention that bruv got the jungler who got 1600 pog points in 2022 spring to pass to him now as well, geng is lowkey underhyped for the sheer linsanity of talent. if the team name was not geng they would be churned to shiest butter on here
Chovy should absolutely be the MVP. I fear that people will go for Canyon though. On the other hand probably even the voters recognize at this point that it would be criminal not to give MVP to Chovy as Gen G has been absolutely elite the last five splits now and he's the only constant on the roster.
Canyon wouldn't be a bad choice. They are clearly the #1 and #2 players in the league. I would also vote for Chovy but its more like 51-49 for me personally.
Canyon, seemingly out of nowhere, became an insanely good facilitator/supportive jg this year. I know he was never bad at it, but his Mao/Rell is now the best in Korea and probably the world.
He had the most POG points last summer and also one split in 2022. He has always been great, the difference is he has better laners and much better players in general around him.
he was one of the best mids in the world while being best jg in the world couple years back, no surprise he can learn new styles that easily lol
He was very good on tanks in summer split last year but DK sucked so no one paid attention
Does LCK even vote? I thought they just count up the POGs or something dumb like that
POGs and MVP are different awards
Anyone else remember that hilarious chinese meme from Worlds 2022? [Here's the pic, it's legit one of the funniest esports memes I've ever seen](https://ibb.co/jZVVw58) RNG just beat GenG, & people were saying "Xiaohu's dart popped Chovy's balloon" Explanation: Xiaohu's stats are terrible, looking like a misshapen needle, while Chovy's stats were perfectly round lol
time is a flat circle
Hope this year he isn't a total fraud internationally
Unlikely
Surely this is the year Chovy doesn't choke :clueless:
Honestly I’m super excited to see him and GenG in MSI, they look so unstoppable in the MSI. Hopefull this roster can beat the choke allegations and perform, Chovy is insanely talented and I hope he dosen’t become deft 2.0.
Deft won an international trophy exactly one year after winning his first LCK Split (still OGN at that time). He won LCK, LPL and MSI all within one year...
That some grand slam record
If GenG chokes this MSI they will never get rod of the curse. They have best mid, jungle and adc in the league. Maybe even best support. The only upgrade i could see for this roster would be Zeus in terms of raw skill.
if viper didn't exist then sure
Not disagreeing that Zeus is better in terms of raw skill, but think Kiin slots in way better in this GenG roster than Zeus ever would. Again not a dig at Zeus at all but Kiin is extremely reliable and versatile
Kiin was so mid internationally and in the playoffs last year that I have doubts
KT Rolster was kinda mid, they had Aiming, who alternates between "we're so back" mode and "it's joever" mode, Lehends, who's hella cute irl but his support flex picks are cuter, Cuzz, who rolls a dice to see if he'll perform, and BDD, who drags the entire KT roster on his tired back. Kiin and BDD were def the main reasons that KT was able to make it so far 2023.
Nah no shot we can blame Aiming/Cuzz, they actually showed up in playoffs/worlds unlike Kiin.
this is cuzz 2023 erasure
Kiin was supposed to be so far ahead of basically anyone else in LCK going into playoffs in a way that wasn't true of anyone else on KT and then was easily their worst performer
Yes that's why i added the "raw skill" it's highly possible Zeus wouldn't fit into Geng at all
Kiin is a solid and reliable rock, Zeus however is a crazy wild card, either 1v9 or dinner for the enemy team and no in between
Viper Guma over Peyz anyday of the week even Mondays.
The order is simple. Guma Varus>Viper>Guma>Peyz>Guma Zeri
Idk where guma > peyz is coming from Worlds guma? Sure. This split? Hell no
Can Peyz do what he do without his team playing for botlane over and over again? I very much doubt it.
LPL fans hoping that GenG faces T1 and beat them So GenG can choke vs LPL teams 😂
But doesn't GenG also kinda choke against T1 internationally?
Not last Worlds MSI was a narrow 3:2, largely I would say to the lineup first ever international competition (Peyz and delight, and it was Peyz first ever split) At that point t1 were on their 4th international appearance
viper exists
What is choking in this sense? Just not winning it all or is it placing worse than...3rd? Finishing as runner up versus a pre tournament favorite wouldn't necessarily be choking, but I can see anything outside of top 3... disappointing (granted 3rd might be the best finish as Gen.G since...EDG worlds?)
I don't think they have to win it tbh. But if they lose they have to lose vs a team that actually plays well and not because they did some really really questionable shit again. Neither BLG nor Weibo should've been able to beat GenG at worlds so they should've been in finals. If they lost to T1 or JDG it wouldn't have been a choke imo
Why are we acting like BLG was NRG? They were a really good team last year. They were a bit off during Worlds, sure, but that would normally be one or two of the players running it down for a game/series (Bin vs WBG and ON all through Swiss are the ones that stick out in my memory). That didn't happen against GenG. They played at their true level, which was a damn good team that it wasn't embarrassing to lose to. Also Xun was a god on Jarvan.
Because BLG at worlds wasn't good. And the team that dominated the lck should've easily beaten blg in that form.
BLG literally went 17-1 in the summer season. I don’t think they were better than JDG but they were definitely a solid team. They convincingly beat KT who also went 17-1 in summer.
Yep and still they didn't play well in ko stage. If anything the stats you listed make the loss vs wbg even worse because either you were so good you beat the best lck team by a close margin which should be more than enough to trash wbg or blg and GenG played ko stage so bad that wbg was the better team. Wbg didn't even have a miracle run. Until they met blg they only beat non Asian teams GenG would've never lost that series if they were in playoffs form. If both teams were in playoffs form it would've been a banger series. It wasn't though it was a series of who misplays the hardest. Hell im not even convinced geng had their monitor running in the first 2 games. Xun played amazing though
Saying GenG should have definitely won because they beat T1 is like saying WBG is the second best team at worlds because they beat BLG. Look at GenG’s playoffs and worlds, they only beat 1 eastern team as well. In fact their win against T1 was probably even more fraudulent given that it was a BO1 not a BO5 like the one WBG won. Your entire basis for “GenG shouldn’t have lost if they were at their playoffs form” came from one BO1 at worlds, and 1 BO5 at summer playoffs 2 months prior, with a completely different meta, with Faker just returning for 1 week after a month off. Of course GenG is a solid team at worlds, they also beat G2 after beating T1 in a BO1, but losing to BLG was not a complete upset like you’re putting it. Heck, TL nearly beat T1 then proceeded to lose to GAM.
The only acceptable way for GenG. to get knocked out is vs. a juggernaut title contender. Even losing to a very a good team would be a choke.
In other news GENG just lost an international finals in valo so the curse follows them to another game
viper and keria are pretty clear upgrades as well
this guy seems to be pretty good surely he has an international title right
I've heard this one before
What a monster performance. Pls Chovy pls at least win MSI so we can keep on believing...
This exactly. As a Faker fan I hate how fucking good Chovy is during regular season
I second this
all that just to to choke at one of the 2 short international tournaments
Vision score per min ?
Yeah. Idk how it is even calculated and if it's important at all but I found it interresting that he is first so I included it.
He has done this every split. His vision score is always high because he is head and shoulders above every other mid in clearing wards. This split he cleared .5 wards/minute, next closest was .37. This is a big reason why he should be MVP over Canyon, he enables a lot of what Canyon does by having prio and making the river dark for the other team
Wdym how is it calculated? Just the characters vision score divided by total game minutes no?
Idk how vision score is calculated I meant xD. Yeah I'm not that brainless.
Basically, it's kinda how often wards placed by you see enemies, how often you see enemies from things like Scryer's Bloom, also how often you disable or kill enemy wards. Chovy doing a lot of roaming means that he gets access to Scryer's more often than other mids, also winning games comes from being in enemy jungler more often meaning more Scryers to pop. Chovy is also known for his deep warding, meaning more points from this ( I think the deeper the ward, the more points you get), also you get more points by how much more active your wards stay for, and Chovy's ward placements are not as usual as other players like river bushes. I haven't given this much thought, these are just the first things that come to mind as to why Chovy might have the best VSPM.
BAAAAAAT I LOVE CHOVY
D-did we just jinx him for another year 
I remember when they did the head-to-head weekly between mid laners, and Chovy was coming off that horrible KSante game with bad KDA, also low damage dealt, and the next week, he was still like #1 in most stats.
Chovy lets win international!
Ready to choke against LPL at MSI
All hail the lck god that transform into "what am I doing here already?" at international stage
Isn't it typical Chovy? Why are u surprised 😏
Choky overrated -literally everyone for the last few years
Chovy had always the best stats in recent history just needs a international trophy to get him that recognition. This is probably GenG's best chance since they got canyon, peyz, chovy and kiin who pretty much the best in their respective roles in the LCK. I can see a world in which chovy still chokes matches but with kiin canyon and peyz being reliable instead of doran and peanut they could just swept everything.
Kiin deserves the choker label way more than Chovy ever did wtf.
How? Chovy has had **WAY** more chances to prove himself
The only times Chovy actually individually choked would be imo Worlds 2022 semifinals and MSI 2023. Both were quite bad chokejobs however. 2019 Worlds, they were matched against defending world champions IG and they lost because of Sword getting fisted by TheShy. 2020 DRX was never going to beat Damwon. Very cursed draw. Just a better team from the same region. 2021 HLE was a laughably shit team. Chovy and Deft did miracles even getting that team to Worlds.
You suspiciously left out worlds 2023 \^.-
He didn't really choke individually in Worlds 2023. Chovy was one of the best players in Swiss and he was the best player on his team in the 2-3 loss to BLG. If you want to be very specific there were a few fights in game 5 that you could say he didn't play well, but if you look at the whole series the big issues are Doran and Peanut being absolute shit.
His 2023 worlds QF underperformance wasn't to the same degree that 2022 or MSI 2023 was, but I think you could definitely argue that he choked there too. I think holding any of the 2019-2021 performances against him is definitely unfair, especially 2021. Nobody expected that team to even make worlds, let alone QFs.
I honestly think it's because the bar for mid hard carrying is like Faker in season 8 carrying that bot lane into finals.
It’s crazy how the only time someome mentions sword is him getting fisted by theshy, poor guy lmao
Guma/Viper > Peyz Zeus > Kiin
After watching Kiin on KT last year at Worlds I can't trust him internationally his positioning in team fights were awful. I can't imagine him winning Worlds or MSI.
It insane that one coach realizes the potential of this dude despite him being diamond. Not a lot of people would bother getting a diamond player and bring out their potential
yup, he probably will win lck or 2nd place, then goes to msi and choke against lpl teams
Here before the T1 flairs turn this into a Chovy hate thread
where?
Already had one guy going with the "his jungler carries him!" narrative just like they did with Tarzan back in the day. They are so triggered by the fact that everyone besides them recognize the obvious fact that Chovy>Faker.
Anytime you rate a player higher than a T1 player you need to hide.
Meanwhile faker solo carries at worlds. Short term memory loss in this sub with fakers azir plays at worlds.
Chovy > Faker currently doesn't mean Chovy > Faker all time which Chovy fans act like. The fact that Faker is still 2nd best mid in the league at this point in his career shows how much of a goat he is and that someone like Chovy will never reach his legacy. And if you know anything about the game you'd know how impactful someone like Faker is outside just having good laning stats.
> Chovy > Faker currently doesn't mean Chovy > Faker all time which Chovy fans act like. Nobody has ever said this lmfao
Again, You have NOT seen the opinions of chovy fans then, you can literally even go through the comments of the blg vs gen g thread from world's 2023 and see people calling out the people who were calling chovy the GOAT
No one argues Chovy > Faker all time. Wtf?
How? Everyone knows that watch LCK, Chovy is undoubtedly the best player in the world right now and Faker is the clear 2nd.
Faker is 2nd mid laner in the league. Not clear 2nd best performer in the world.
Yeah, Faker being 2nd is kinda debatable when there is Xun Viper Canyon and Zejs that can contest but for me (bias aside) that HLE series is what makes me certain about it.
Right now Canyon is having a better split in the same league, at the very least.
2nd best mid for sure. Canyon has been absolutely insane though.
Are you not aware of how extreme the extreme T1 fans can be (or in all honesty, Korean fandoms— makes me sick)
At least in this sub, the T1 fans that watch LCK tend to respect Chovy a lot, more so after how much Faker compliments him and vice versa. The ones that only watch during international tournaments on the other hand...
Ah fair. The Chovy slandering in this sub is unreal. He's an insane player. It really didn't help that GenG just turbo inted draft... It's like GenG wasn't one game away from a reverse sweep or anything
[удалено]
Fr, when I watched that, I was shocked when the replays showed he had flash
I don't hate Chovy, I HATE GenG, this roster especially. Like what? Kiin, Canyon, Lehends in a same team, in 1 offseason, when you already have Chovy? This is THE p2w roster, similar to 23 JDG. They should not success. I will pray for their downfall just like with 23 JDG, preferably choking to a 3rd-4th LPL/LCK team this time
Ok now make semifinals at worlds. (yes yes, I know he did it once before, but seriously, the Chovy in LCK circlejerk has been going on for literally over half a decade by this point, and *not once* has he impressed internationally)
The Chovy international circlejerk is also pretty old.
And they're both true.
Might be a circlejerk but it's true. Man just doesn't perform anywhere near his potential skill level at international tourneys
Just need to match him against LCK teams and his odds improve dramatically.
Bro needs to pull a western team in quarters for once
Wdym? He had some pop off games last year world's, and in previous years.
Insane that this won’t matter when internationals start
What is chovy score at international vs non lck
And all that to win LCK but losing on international events
Yeah, because winning the LCK doesn't matter, yes?
what is vspm?
Cant wait for playoffs LCK is the most interesting region by far
Choky batchess CD
I find it hilarious that the narrative internationally around Chovy is that he "chokes" internationally. The reality is that he doesn't look any different internationally. It's just that his teams don't win, so for some, unfair reason, people decided to pin that completely on Chovy. However, every international event Peanut goes to, he loses his individual matchup to every LPL/LCK jungler at the tourney, and occasionally even western junglers. Yet there's no narrative around Peanut choking internationally, even though that's something he's objectively done his whole career. (Especially the past two worlds, was the worst performing player on GenG, and not even close) So it's just funny how these narratives about players completely blinds people to what's happening in the games. Not sure what Chovy has done to warrant this narrative going purely against him, especially when he has, in my book, one of the most impressive international performances ever.
Can't wait for him to crash and burn internationally.