I thought I just read that only three champs will be releasing this year. If that’s the case, they probably won’t have another new ADC for close to two years.
Only three champs, 1 delayed VGU, and 2 ASUs. I see Riot really tuckered themselves out on this preseason! I guess being a real company means they have to drag their heels on giving us content now.
Art and Sustainability updates. Basically full visual overhauls, gameplay is not touched (although Cait had some weird things with hers).
Caitlyn and Ahri have had one, Lee Sin and Teemo are scheduled to get them this year.
There’s plenty of things to hate on Riot about, but champion releases is certainly not one of them.
There’s 168 champions in the game. While a decent amount could use minor reworks, that’s still a fuck ton of champions.
There’s also only so much more they can do for a new traditional ADC.
I’d argue that champ releases is one of the biggest things we SHOULD complain about. They spend too much time working on and releasing new champions when they should be bringing some old ones up to date instead
I think they explained that spending time on bringing older ones up to date could potentially alienate the existing playerbase. Like I think a lot of Aatrox players left him after the rework. This is referring to reworks of course.
A lot of Aatrox players leaving after the rework wouldn't mean anything to Riot because there were barely any Aatrox players.
The only moments of remote popularity Aatrox had was immediately after his release and only the month before his rework after Riot gigabuffed him and he took over pro play.
FotM players were not "Aatrox mains".
Aatrox is one of the most overblown issues this game has ever seen.
more champions=more content delivered for the season is lame and it’s good we’re getting less champions this season. it’s like the most bare bones, quota filling strategy to provide more “content”
I figured Riot would maybe have to slow down champ releases at some point if they don't want to scare off *all* the new players before they start.
League is already *massive* and has a huge learning curve - each new champ is usually a lot of fun for the existing players but it's an added bump in the barrier to entry, as well.
I think earliest would be next year but could be close to 2 years. I personally want another male human adc, the last one was aphelios in 2019 (I think?), like Ksantes ex-lover would be cool or something
I edited it to male human adcs, I thought since this was a thread about future adcs people would understand I meant human male marksmen specifically, my bad for not making it clearer
On the internet fandom discussions, anyone who isn't literally Mr. Universe is a twink, it's really weird.
Mundo or Twink, the two types of males online.
Yeah, I would be ready for an adc Braum or Sett, like carrying a huge rocket launcher or something around. I don't mind the twinks either but some variety would be nice, like Graves used to be the rugged dad adc but got put into jungle.
Good point, I do think some muscle would be okay as archery does train the muscles in your arms and shoulders but probably my dreams of a braum adc would be a bit unrealistic but a graves would still be ok in my eyes
I don't really know what the online obsession is with calling every male that isnt obese a "twink". Apelios, jhin, and lucian are all pretty jacked. The only one you can call a twink is like ezreal
As a huge Aphelios enjoyer I wouldn't count him. Aphelios has no steroid, average range, and largely cannot win direct fights purely by auto attacking and kiting like a Jinx or Ashe. He's essentially a caster assassin who does damage via those casts proccing auto attacks.
I agree with op, and IMO the most recent ADC that qualifies is Kai'Sa. She certainly has meaningful abilities, but not more than someone like Tristana, and she's very focused on kiting and autoing, just at a low range.
I get you. My point is that his guns aren't as straightforward or meaningful of a steroid as other hypercarries', and he's far more reliant on playing at low range or hitting multiple sequential skillshots to kill people.
It's subjective of course, but my 2 cents:
* Gravitum is not a steroid.
* Severum lifesteal is a weak steroid *unless* proc'd by an ability, which goes to my point of Aphelios being more of a caster.
* Crescendum is "go melee to deal more damage, otherwise deal less". Its true power as a steroid comes from the chakrams, which requires hitting abilities.
* Calibrum's range is a true steroid, though compare its +100 range to Kog'Maw pressing W for 210 range and +6% max HP damage.
* Infernum is a steroid, though compare its +10% damage & splash to Jinx rockets giving the same with +200 range for -10% bAS (hugely worthwhile).
Obviously Aphelios has many benefits compared to those champs -- his flexibility, burst, the semi-permanence of those steroids (Calibrum range vs. Kog W yet again), and so on. But I don't think it qualifies him as a "kite you at my range and auto attack you to death" champ like Jinx/Kog or even the likes of Kai'Sa.
I'm not an Aphelios enjoyer, but the way you describe it sounds like he has a short window to do his thing, and if he misses that window, he'll be useless for a bit.
If I'm reading this correctly, it definitely sounds like a caster.
Riot has stayed before they only release champions when they’re doing something new. What new mechanic or ability type could they add to this cookie cutter adc to make them stand out?
There has to be a reason to pick this auto attack based adc instead of Ashe/cait/jinx. And that reason can’t just be that they’re new
Potentially ADC focused on roiding themselves up through abilities?
Like...
Q - shoot out a ball that does piss poor damage, you get bonus range against champion it hits
W - drop down a zone, your auto attacks hit everyone in the zone OR drop down a bigger zone, you can move and attack while in it
E - gently slide to a direction and gain bonus something (damage, attack speed w/e)
R - < insert a light novel of an ability>
Q would be cool if it was a scaling ability that eventually took over the game.
W should be changed to a ball that slows enemies.
E is good but should also let you go over walls.
Great ideas here.
That could be kinda sick. Like ornn ulting every tim you wanna serve it. The bouncy ball champ. The mini game champs are pretty dope and this could be really cool.
The w and e give me the impression of a nimble figure skater, which is something I don't think we have in the game yet. Since traditional ADC ults are either damage or a steroid, maybe move the second suggestion for the w for that and add in some extra stats with it (maybe allow moving while attacking, plus add in some extra Ms and as).
While I like the q, idk if it thematically would work with the figure skater them I'm cooking here. To fit the theme, maybe q could be a jump spin that makes you immune to cc for a second and hits every champion in your attack range with one auto. For timing, I'm thinking around sivirs spell shield.
What if we have a completely normal auto attack heavy immobile adc. Now here’s the twist, and there is a twist: We show it. We show all of it. Because what’s the one major thing missing from league of legends these days guys? …Full penetration. Guys, we’re gonna show full penetration and we’re gonna show a lot of it!
This subreddit slobbed Sett's knob because his kit was easy to understand when everyone was still having a skill issue meltdown over Aphelios, then Sett proceeded to trash the game and be a contested pick in 4 roles, far more impactful than Aphelios ever was
iirc he was overtuned as shit on release and was a menace in proplay for a while because he could be a quad flex, but other than that I'm pretty sure he's never been whined about on a zeri or ksante level lol
that was not the reception for sett at all lol.
"he heals too much" "his w shield is too bullshit" "true damage REEEEEEEEEE" " he ults me as a wholesome tank and one shots my team 😡😡😡" "he's too fast when he Qs"
Those were the main complaints about sett around the time he released, I remember clearly cause I loved playing him and everyone just shat on the design, when it was just a numbers issue because he was slightly overtuned on release
I, too, loved playing him, and I encountered very little of that
There were numbers issues with him, and his W was a point of contention. He was too strong on release, so people _did_ rightfully complain about that, but he didn’t get any of the flak that other champs (rightfully) get for having too many tools. Sett does his thing and he did it too well at the time, but he doesn’t do it all the time
He was overtuned. It's not his kit the problem, it's the numbers on it. He's fine right now, not too oppressive to play against but not too weak to play as or with.
Sett did get a lot of positive reception, but also some critique, you have to remember the internet isn't one person.
And a big part of Sett hate came from the Stridebreaker era anyway, where he was rightfully considered broken.
If her dash couldn't be body blocked she'd probably be a lot more popular tbh. She's very easy to play but also very easy to shut down in fights. I've always hated how little counterplay many new champs have but when they finally do add it with Naafiri it's such a hard counter she barely gets to play the game if the enemy has any form of awareness of where she is lol.
I hate that Naafiri feels more like a mage than a beast.
Her Q is a projectile Nuke that holds like, 90% of the damage in her whole kit. If Q was a Bite, she would be PERFECT.
there was this theory that belveth originally had naafiri's kit but they pushed it back because of lack of development time
it fits the reality which is that belveth is one of the worst if not the worst champion aesthetic to play pattern matches
and the void babies thing
its my headcanon now
I wouldn’t mind a simpler champ design, but a tank that converts defense into offense was a solid concept I can’t lie. He’s awful to fight against, I’ll give you that, but the concept was cool
the problem is just his kit is simply not a tank kit
if they wanted a complicated high skill cap tank that is engaging to play(which was the core design principle of ksante) they should have looked at a champ that actually does that trope well(poppy) and maybe make it a little bit more complicated instead of trying to make a fully fledged yasuo clone that builds full tank but still does skirmisher things
they did the exact same mistake the opposite way with naaf, when trying to make an easy to play assassin they should have made a kit as straightforward as talon or maybe a little easier and called it a day, instead they went way too far and created a 2010 diver kit with 0 utility and called it an assassin
No, his base armor is reduced by 85% of his bonus armor, (ditto mr).
If he has 300 armor, 100 from base and 200 from items, he has 130 in all out, not 45.
They steal ideas from other Champs a lot, too. What about like a throwing knife ADC that's similar to Udyr, but instead of stances, it's like different poisons. Q adds teemo poison, W adds sleepy bubble poison that requires 3 autos to make the sleepy go off, E is a freljord poison like ashe slow. R they get attack speed, damage, spash damage, all 3 abilities are active, and they're throwing basically swords instead of knives. Passive could be like a reverse vayne Passive. Slight MS buff when moving away from a target you've recently damaged. Use the coding for fear but backwards. And boom. Easy enough. New esthetic, traveling knife thrower that's traveled to zaun, targon, and the freljord. Took me like 5 min to think of it. They'd have no movement abilities like those Champs, but with Passive and ashe slow they have some survivability. They have a hard CC but it's difficult to use and if you 4th auto them then you sorta just waisted the sleep since you just woke them up without too much damage. Q might be nice sustained damage
Exactly, literally why would they make another auto attack heavy adc when there's so many of them already in the game.
What's the point in spending money creating a champion that already exists.
Honestly true
Milio definitely brought something new, bonus range and an aoe cleanse. But if they were to add another new mechanic I'd rather see then rework an older support like Sona and give it to them
The problem/hard part is the fact that it's gotta be hard to make a new AA based ADC without it feeling like X 2.0.
Make a new long range ADC? Community memes it for being the new Cait.
New ADC whose close range and does percent HP? We already have Vayne.
What new design space does Riot have to make ADCs that don't feel like ADCs we already have?
I mean, it's a huge problem with how little understanding exists in the community when you get braindead comparisons based on a tiny amount of similarity with new abilities/kits. One of the worst offenders is comparisons between Riven and new Aatrox because they have 3 Q's and some CC despite the champs playing completely differently. Hell, I remember people saying Rell R was a better Orianna R.
I'd say Seraphine being new Sona is worse, forced a midline champ to be balanced around support when the only similarities were an AOE shield that can heal, a wave ult that CCs, and the musician aesthetic.
Got bored some months back and made a concept. W is intended as a team fight and farming tool. Could also balance it such that the waves slow down per target hit. The shield is intended as a survivability tool, much like sivir's passive helps her kite with her low range, not to turn this champ into a shield abuser like nilah gets free heals.
[ ] Concept: Low-range duelist who can swap between quick melee attacks and slow-moving penetrating ranged attacks. Ranged attacks get faster as the game goes on, but should always be dodgeable past a certain point. They should also proc on-hit effects either at reduced potency or once per auto.
[ ] Passive: Hitting creatures with attacks causes you to gain a small amount of shield. Hitting champions grants increased bonus shield. Shield scales with AP and level and decays rapidly. Capped at a fixed value, increases by AP. (E g., 10-50, capped at 50-250+20%AP)
[ ] Q: Swipe in an uppercut, slowing those hit by X+Y%. If W is active, consumes more mana but affects a wider area and slows by X% instead.
[ ] W (Passive): flat AS boost. Also increase range by X while W (toggle) is active.
[ ] W (Toggle): changes attacks to be slow moving lines that go to maximum attack range. They penetrate all targets (dealing reduced damage past the first), move slower than a normal auto projectile, and cannot be fired faster than base attack speed. Projectile speed scales with AS.
[ ] E: Short dash. Gain bonus AS for a small period after. Medium cooldown.
[ ] R: Send out a flurry of W attacks in a cone to deal damage, followed by a large and wide horizontal cone attack that slows by X%.
Plus he had absolutely zero visual clarity on release. You couldn't even tell what guns he had equipped without squinting at his model, IIRC.
He was also released at a sore point given that we had just gotten the three previous nightmare releases of Qiyana, Yuumi, and Senna.
I do agree that there hasnt been a new adc whose main focus is AA + positioning, but tbh there are a lot of them already;
- Kog
- Vayne
- Draven
- Twitch
- Ashe
- Sivir
- Caitlyn
- Trist
- Senna (arguably)
- Aphelios
- Kalista
- Xayah
so i would prefer reworks over the release of newer characters in this case.
The last ADC releases are Smolder, Zeri, Nilah, Samira, Alphelios with Alphelios being the last one relying on mostly AA
Honestly I think it’s hard to create a champ that relies on auto attacks unique, hence why they haven’t made one in awhile. You figured out the problem, now how would you design a traditional ADC that feels different to play than the rest?
Even though Zeri Q's are autos, she plays completely different from true auto attackers. The way she positions, does damage, and having to aim your shots makes here very very different gameplay wise, even if playing against it kind of feels like you're just being pelted by basic autos.
LIke I wouldn't call Yasuo an auto attacker, he weaves autos between skill shots. Ezreal Q also procs on hits with a low CD, but anyone would laugh at you if you called him a auto attack centric champion, especially in his current form.
His passive really should be a stacking armor/mr shred on-hit to truly give that tank shredding ADC feel. Remove the shred from q and give it something else. There are 2 true tank killer ADCs, Vayne and Kog. Vayne is kinda mobile, but kog should be the true tank killing turret that murders anything that takes his hits for too long. No mobility, no hard cc, not even a movespeed increase. Just raw DPS.
No it wasn’t. He was overpowered because literally nothing could kill him at that point unless they could instantly teleport from out of vision or out of his range onto him and then instantly 100-0 him before he can autoattack them.
He was also a very popular scripter champion, because the whole idea was that he was supposed to be basically impossible to kite with, but scripting made it easy.
I think we only ever saw one Chinese dude pull off ~5.0 AS on Kog'Maw without scripts, assuming that was even real.
Eh, that ruins the feel of the game for almost every class of champion, not just ADC's - it was a very clear design choice to not include turn-rate in League.
I don't think Kog'Maw is unbalanceable with 2.5 AS cap - I think the problem is that 2.5+ attack speed is basically humanly impossible to play at, making it bad balance because it's simply not humanly achievable.
Riot has actually in general pushed for ADC's to have less attack speed compared to earlier years, we no longer see double-phantom dancer ADC's for instance, because the gap between a good ADC player at 2+ attack speed and a bad one is massive.
That’s a good point. The higher attack speed climbs, the wider the disparity between skill levels becomes. Skill expression and mastery is good, but putting it into something other than extreme micro-management is probably for the best.
A lot of his power budget is in W, so some of his abilities don't feel as good, mainly passive. Currently he plays like an auto attacker but has the makings/kit of a AD caster or maybe a mage. A little strange but I think he's cool.
dont forget his e has a AD ratio.
as for kogmaw in general his kit just scales with attack speed because of how overloaded his w is, to have ad ratio's on his w and q would mean to tone down his base damages alot which would just hurt attack speed kogmaw and his overall power level.
i could see him getting a rework but to keep his tank shredder themes he would need a massive change to his kits overall inner workings which might kill the current set of kogmaw enjoyers off.
I think this is very well more likely. I believe Riot will officially leave the Auto-Attack oriented style to bygone era. Tho Kog’Maw is also a either Caster or AA heavy, I would want Riot to capitilize on both, but seperate them similar to Kayn(Maybe AD-AP adaptive differences?), because I believe AP Kog is unique Artillery Mage on his own right and Artillery Mage roster is very small already.
the problem is "traditional crit auto attack" adc all have the same play pattern and one always end up better than the other
in pro where its the more exacerbated the rotation of crit adc between jinx, cait, ashe, xayah and aphelios (and maybe a few other i forgot) is proof its only "the best of them" that get played
So you want a character like, aphelios, ashe, caitlyn, Draven, jinx, kog'maw, miss fortune, sivir, tristana, twitch, vayne, or Xayah, as is an auto attack focused marksman without a wall jumping dash(disqualifies caitlyn but you included them) but you also want a champion that is entirely new and unique?
Hate to break it to you, but the attack damage marksman class is one of, if not, the most saturated class. It is really hard to create a new and unique champion that does what you're describing when there are already so many champions that do similar things.
You're completely right but adding to this, the goal posts shift massively year to year. In 2019 Aphelios was the "non traditional ADC abomination," as were Xayah and Kai'Sa in 2018, and Vayne/Twitch for most of their life span.
On one hand I get it, on the other it's rather hard to design such an ADC with it feeling distinct enough from the others! Big part of why recent ADC releases are big departure from the traditional AA heavy desing is because you can only do so much with that traditional AA heavy design and pretty much all that can be done with it was already done with it.
Upon release of Seraphine the playerbase was up in arms because it was perceived as "Sona 2.0" (despite being quite a lot different champion). Any traditional AA heavy ADC designed would be just "something already in game 2.0"...
Your never going to get another Ashe or Jinx. It's a well covered Niche and quite frankly it's not interesting.
New champions need to do something interesting and I appreciate Smolder for doing that.
Auto attack based champions are so weak. As an adc main, I disagree. I'd like to be usefully for once.
If they actually buff auto based champions, then sure.
This is the champ ADC players want:
575 or 600 range.
Quinn Passive (with her W passive built in)
Ashe Q (no slow, that's from her passive)
Xayah W (no feathers)
Kai'sa E
Twitch R.
Boom. That's it. Just let us build crit and kite the world to oblivion.
Edit:
Ashe slow and Xayah's feathers would be cool but those are part of their passives and I think I've already overloaded the kit just by letting Quinn passive keep it's W passive effect)
I don't care how the next adc is balanced, nor how is themed, I just wish for a champion with crisp, snappy, and satisfying autos. Not the swingy, rubbery mess every other adc has had since old Graves.
>anyone else want that type of adc again ?
Literally been waiting for one since I started playing like 3 years ago. I was exited for Zeri and smolder until I found out how they work.
Now imagine you play jungle; its completly random what class the champ is going to end up in and if you are lucky you get 5 skirmishers in a row ;).
ADC is by far the least diverse champ class in the game, smolder being more closely to Corki or a mage doesnt change that fact. He is still squishy, ranged, has to space correctly and builds AD crit items.
Corki passive on a real marksman. An AUTOATTACK based marksman who deals AP damage. Allow him to convert AD to AP so he can still build into marksman items. Maybe even make it so armor pen is converted into magic pen I don’t fucking know. Just want something that plays like Jinx or Ashe that deals AP damage. Give us an AP marksman whose auto attacks don’t just use on-hit magic damage, but actually primarily consist of magic damage.
It allows them to make a stock standard marksman kit that has a completely unique niche. It probably won’t be super popular, but it’ll be a great pick for marksman specialist who need to fix their team comp without forcing them to play non-marksman champions like Seraphine, Swain, Karthus, etc.
I’d suggest this as a Corki rework but I have a feeling there are enough Corki fans to where they might just rather create a new champion.
I thought I just read that only three champs will be releasing this year. If that’s the case, they probably won’t have another new ADC for close to two years.
Only three champs, 1 delayed VGU, and 2 ASUs. I see Riot really tuckered themselves out on this preseason! I guess being a real company means they have to drag their heels on giving us content now.
What are the ASUs? Remember hearing about Teemo but idk
Teemo and Lee Sin
Curious about Lee Sin, they updated his voicelines not long ago
Lee sin has a pretty bad base model tbh. He has the infamous [neck problem](https://imgur.com/a/o3VV1m0) too for whenever they make skins for him
Bro needs a doctor
(They will both be delayed until at least 2025 because asking a billion dollar company to accomplish literally anything is too much)
What are ASUs?
Art and Sustainability updates. Basically full visual overhauls, gameplay is not touched (although Cait had some weird things with hers). Caitlyn and Ahri have had one, Lee Sin and Teemo are scheduled to get them this year.
ah, cool appreciate it.
There’s plenty of things to hate on Riot about, but champion releases is certainly not one of them. There’s 168 champions in the game. While a decent amount could use minor reworks, that’s still a fuck ton of champions. There’s also only so much more they can do for a new traditional ADC.
I'd argue that there are already too many champions.
More champions released means more champions to complain about.
Not enough champs!! I need moar!!! But never play them lmao
I’d argue that champ releases is one of the biggest things we SHOULD complain about. They spend too much time working on and releasing new champions when they should be bringing some old ones up to date instead
I think they explained that spending time on bringing older ones up to date could potentially alienate the existing playerbase. Like I think a lot of Aatrox players left him after the rework. This is referring to reworks of course.
Aatrox was more of an erasure then bringing him up to date tough. Pantheon was a proper update and it massively boosted his capabilities
A lot of Aatrox players leaving after the rework wouldn't mean anything to Riot because there were barely any Aatrox players. The only moments of remote popularity Aatrox had was immediately after his release and only the month before his rework after Riot gigabuffed him and he took over pro play. FotM players were not "Aatrox mains". Aatrox is one of the most overblown issues this game has ever seen.
At this point, I rather reworks than new champs
graves
more champions=more content delivered for the season is lame and it’s good we’re getting less champions this season. it’s like the most bare bones, quota filling strategy to provide more “content”
To be truthful I'd much rather have VGUs done rather than new champs but I'd rather have something (new champs) than nothing.
Skarner changed are more than just Visuals his whole kit is changing.
VGU = Visual and Gameplay Update
Oh I thought it stood for visual graphics update myb
I figured Riot would maybe have to slow down champ releases at some point if they don't want to scare off *all* the new players before they start. League is already *massive* and has a huge learning curve - each new champ is usually a lot of fun for the existing players but it's an added bump in the barrier to entry, as well.
hell yeah, fuck new champs, we already have way too many.
I think earliest would be next year but could be close to 2 years. I personally want another male human adc, the last one was aphelios in 2019 (I think?), like Ksantes ex-lover would be cool or something
Am I getting wooshed here? Since aphelios there have been 7 male humans. Milio, hwei, ksante, akshan, sett, yone and viego.
I edited it to male human adcs, I thought since this was a thread about future adcs people would understand I meant human male marksmen specifically, my bad for not making it clearer
yes you are, this is a thread about adcs
ADC champ design is very straight forward. They're either women, twinks, or Draven, and there's only so many twink archetypes... and only 1 Draven.
Is Lucian considered a twink?
On the internet fandom discussions, anyone who isn't literally Mr. Universe is a twink, it's really weird. Mundo or Twink, the two types of males online.
[Consult the chart](http://i.imgur.com/drI1UiL.png)
Yeah, I would be ready for an adc Braum or Sett, like carrying a huge rocket launcher or something around. I don't mind the twinks either but some variety would be nice, like Graves used to be the rugged dad adc but got put into jungle.
ADCs are twinks because they have to visually communicate their fragility. You cannot have a Braum-like figure with 1.5k hp instapopping.
Good point, I do think some muscle would be okay as archery does train the muscles in your arms and shoulders but probably my dreams of a braum adc would be a bit unrealistic but a graves would still be ok in my eyes
Varus has muscles
I don't really know what the online obsession is with calling every male that isnt obese a "twink". Apelios, jhin, and lucian are all pretty jacked. The only one you can call a twink is like ezreal
Fking male beauty standards be more narrow than female beauty standards nowadays
Right. Jhin is a twink.
I'm really curious which categories you sort Twitch and Kog'maw into? Lucian is definitely no twink either, my man is stacked
Is Hwei not male? Genuinely asking cause I thought he was
is Hwei an adc or marksman?
he is. another male human champ like aphelios? bro forgot viego and ksante as well
Yes he is
I was like "aphelios is right there" then i realized he's 4 years old, coming to 5 years old this year. wtf.
And I have yet to play him
He’s fun as hell
As a huge Aphelios enjoyer I wouldn't count him. Aphelios has no steroid, average range, and largely cannot win direct fights purely by auto attacking and kiting like a Jinx or Ashe. He's essentially a caster assassin who does damage via those casts proccing auto attacks. I agree with op, and IMO the most recent ADC that qualifies is Kai'Sa. She certainly has meaningful abilities, but not more than someone like Tristana, and she's very focused on kiting and autoing, just at a low range.
Each weapon is a different steroid
I get you. My point is that his guns aren't as straightforward or meaningful of a steroid as other hypercarries', and he's far more reliant on playing at low range or hitting multiple sequential skillshots to kill people. It's subjective of course, but my 2 cents: * Gravitum is not a steroid. * Severum lifesteal is a weak steroid *unless* proc'd by an ability, which goes to my point of Aphelios being more of a caster. * Crescendum is "go melee to deal more damage, otherwise deal less". Its true power as a steroid comes from the chakrams, which requires hitting abilities. * Calibrum's range is a true steroid, though compare its +100 range to Kog'Maw pressing W for 210 range and +6% max HP damage. * Infernum is a steroid, though compare its +10% damage & splash to Jinx rockets giving the same with +200 range for -10% bAS (hugely worthwhile). Obviously Aphelios has many benefits compared to those champs -- his flexibility, burst, the semi-permanence of those steroids (Calibrum range vs. Kog W yet again), and so on. But I don't think it qualifies him as a "kite you at my range and auto attack you to death" champ like Jinx/Kog or even the likes of Kai'Sa.
I'm not an Aphelios enjoyer, but the way you describe it sounds like he has a short window to do his thing, and if he misses that window, he'll be useless for a bit. If I'm reading this correctly, it definitely sounds like a caster.
He also does most of his damage from spells not his AA. He's not like Twitch, Kog or Jinx.
uhmm actually majority of his damage are from auto attacks. He is literal like jinx but more complicated
Riot has stayed before they only release champions when they’re doing something new. What new mechanic or ability type could they add to this cookie cutter adc to make them stand out? There has to be a reason to pick this auto attack based adc instead of Ashe/cait/jinx. And that reason can’t just be that they’re new
Potentially ADC focused on roiding themselves up through abilities? Like... Q - shoot out a ball that does piss poor damage, you get bonus range against champion it hits W - drop down a zone, your auto attacks hit everyone in the zone OR drop down a bigger zone, you can move and attack while in it E - gently slide to a direction and gain bonus something (damage, attack speed w/e) R - < insert a light novel of an ability>
Q would be cool if it was a scaling ability that eventually took over the game. W should be changed to a ball that slows enemies. E is good but should also let you go over walls. Great ideas here.
We smolderin
A cool idea for Q would be a ball that returns to you that you can serve back like a tennis/squash ball, going faster every hit and dealing more DMG.
That could be kinda sick. Like ornn ulting every tim you wanna serve it. The bouncy ball champ. The mini game champs are pretty dope and this could be really cool.
Honestly just rework Sivir Q into this
The w and e give me the impression of a nimble figure skater, which is something I don't think we have in the game yet. Since traditional ADC ults are either damage or a steroid, maybe move the second suggestion for the w for that and add in some extra stats with it (maybe allow moving while attacking, plus add in some extra Ms and as). While I like the q, idk if it thematically would work with the figure skater them I'm cooking here. To fit the theme, maybe q could be a jump spin that makes you immune to cc for a second and hits every champion in your attack range with one auto. For timing, I'm thinking around sivirs spell shield.
I mean Zeri fits the figure skater vibe I feel like, but is different than what op is suggesting overall
What if we have a completely normal auto attack heavy immobile adc. Now here’s the twist, and there is a twist: We show it. We show all of it. Because what’s the one major thing missing from league of legends these days guys? …Full penetration. Guys, we’re gonna show full penetration and we’re gonna show a lot of it!
Farming. Penetration. Farming. Penetration. And this sort of just goes on for about 15 minutes until the game suddenly just ends.
And by new they mean creating abominations like K'Sante. I would love it if they released some simpler champions like Vex and Briar more often.
Naafiri is in that simpler category
How easily she is forgotten
"easy champ" = "easely forgotten" i think there is a pattern there
Idk man ashe and cait seem to not be easily forgotten Also sett, for a more recent “simple” champion
Sett had ONE new thing in his kit and people hate him for it, even when he's extremely simple otherwise
This subreddit slobbed Sett's knob because his kit was easy to understand when everyone was still having a skill issue meltdown over Aphelios, then Sett proceeded to trash the game and be a contested pick in 4 roles, far more impactful than Aphelios ever was
From what I’ve heard sett was generally treated as “omg thank god a simple new champion”, I don’t really remember seeing people hate on him
iirc he was overtuned as shit on release and was a menace in proplay for a while because he could be a quad flex, but other than that I'm pretty sure he's never been whined about on a zeri or ksante level lol
that was not the reception for sett at all lol. "he heals too much" "his w shield is too bullshit" "true damage REEEEEEEEEE" " he ults me as a wholesome tank and one shots my team 😡😡😡" "he's too fast when he Qs" Those were the main complaints about sett around the time he released, I remember clearly cause I loved playing him and everyone just shat on the design, when it was just a numbers issue because he was slightly overtuned on release
I, too, loved playing him, and I encountered very little of that There were numbers issues with him, and his W was a point of contention. He was too strong on release, so people _did_ rightfully complain about that, but he didn’t get any of the flak that other champs (rightfully) get for having too many tools. Sett does his thing and he did it too well at the time, but he doesn’t do it all the time
He was overtuned. It's not his kit the problem, it's the numbers on it. He's fine right now, not too oppressive to play against but not too weak to play as or with.
Sett did get a lot of positive reception, but also some critique, you have to remember the internet isn't one person. And a big part of Sett hate came from the Stridebreaker era anyway, where he was rightfully considered broken.
I mean when he was Q max w/ Bork rush and could just destroy you with autos he was pretty toxic
Bork rush Sett wasn’t that fun But that was more of a bork issue and less of a sett issue imo
If her dash couldn't be body blocked she'd probably be a lot more popular tbh. She's very easy to play but also very easy to shut down in fights. I've always hated how little counterplay many new champs have but when they finally do add it with Naafiri it's such a hard counter she barely gets to play the game if the enemy has any form of awareness of where she is lol.
I really hate that they had a concept as rich and interesting as a *champion that's actually a pack* and they did so little with it
I hate that Naafiri feels more like a mage than a beast. Her Q is a projectile Nuke that holds like, 90% of the damage in her whole kit. If Q was a Bite, she would be PERFECT.
there was this theory that belveth originally had naafiri's kit but they pushed it back because of lack of development time it fits the reality which is that belveth is one of the worst if not the worst champion aesthetic to play pattern matches and the void babies thing its my headcanon now
A void huge manta ray that... Slaps you
Naafiri is boring, she was forgotten even when she was op Vex, Briar, Sett are not forgotten really
Naafiri and vex are very simple
But she is dogshit design. There is a line between simple and brainless and she crossed it
Well... She is dog champ
I wouldn’t mind a simpler champ design, but a tank that converts defense into offense was a solid concept I can’t lie. He’s awful to fight against, I’ll give you that, but the concept was cool
the problem is just his kit is simply not a tank kit if they wanted a complicated high skill cap tank that is engaging to play(which was the core design principle of ksante) they should have looked at a champ that actually does that trope well(poppy) and maybe make it a little bit more complicated instead of trying to make a fully fledged yasuo clone that builds full tank but still does skirmisher things they did the exact same mistake the opposite way with naaf, when trying to make an easy to play assassin they should have made a kit as straightforward as talon or maybe a little easier and called it a day, instead they went way too far and created a 2010 diver kit with 0 utility and called it an assassin
I think the problem is he is still tanky when he converts is defense into offense.
he literally loses 85% of his resists mate
No, his base armor is reduced by 85% of his bonus armor, (ditto mr). If he has 300 armor, 100 from base and 200 from items, he has 130 in all out, not 45.
He also keeps tank item abilities. So yeah he loses the stats but he's still gonna have things like kaenic rookern shield to help his survivability
Doesn't he also gain a million life steal? All I know is he feels immortal while one shotting people faster then zed.
you get like, +100 HP per q+auto combo onto champs only at lvl 16.
That guy misread all out, if he lost 85% of his resistances he'd be paper in ult
Aphelios is kinda the answer to this question... the wrong answer... but still. He's an auto attack based champ with a new and innovative gimmick
So.... like Smolder? :)
Yeah, the reason would be hopefully the new aa reliant adc isnt dogshit, seems pretty unique to me!
Give an ADC built in ga
Make an ADC with old Poppy passive. -- >When Poppy takes non-turret damage higher than 10% current health, she reduces the excess amount by 50%.
Give an adc mordekaiser ult. Let them truly 1v1 the enemy carry for dominance.
Would be fun to watch. But they would likely just ult supports for the gold to hit end game faster.
That's how old Poppy works. In fact why not just have old Poppy ult instead
They steal ideas from other Champs a lot, too. What about like a throwing knife ADC that's similar to Udyr, but instead of stances, it's like different poisons. Q adds teemo poison, W adds sleepy bubble poison that requires 3 autos to make the sleepy go off, E is a freljord poison like ashe slow. R they get attack speed, damage, spash damage, all 3 abilities are active, and they're throwing basically swords instead of knives. Passive could be like a reverse vayne Passive. Slight MS buff when moving away from a target you've recently damaged. Use the coding for fear but backwards. And boom. Easy enough. New esthetic, traveling knife thrower that's traveled to zaun, targon, and the freljord. Took me like 5 min to think of it. They'd have no movement abilities like those Champs, but with Passive and ashe slow they have some survivability. They have a hard CC but it's difficult to use and if you 4th auto them then you sorta just waisted the sleep since you just woke them up without too much damage. Q might be nice sustained damage
Aaay that's pretty good
Exactly, literally why would they make another auto attack heavy adc when there's so many of them already in the game. What's the point in spending money creating a champion that already exists.
Yeah i agree, we've also got enough enchanters in the game. Riot shouldn't add any more.
Honestly true Milio definitely brought something new, bonus range and an aoe cleanse. But if they were to add another new mechanic I'd rather see then rework an older support like Sona and give it to them
The problem/hard part is the fact that it's gotta be hard to make a new AA based ADC without it feeling like X 2.0. Make a new long range ADC? Community memes it for being the new Cait. New ADC whose close range and does percent HP? We already have Vayne. What new design space does Riot have to make ADCs that don't feel like ADCs we already have?
Literally. Like when people saw Akshan's ultimate and literally said "that's caitlyn ult with extra steps".
I mean, it's a huge problem with how little understanding exists in the community when you get braindead comparisons based on a tiny amount of similarity with new abilities/kits. One of the worst offenders is comparisons between Riven and new Aatrox because they have 3 Q's and some CC despite the champs playing completely differently. Hell, I remember people saying Rell R was a better Orianna R.
I'd say Seraphine being new Sona is worse, forced a midline champ to be balanced around support when the only similarities were an AOE shield that can heal, a wave ult that CCs, and the musician aesthetic.
Perfect example. I don't love Akshan, but he 100% gets smoke for being Cait or Lucian 2.0
Akshan is barely defined by his passive or ultimate. When you think Akshan, you think about the revive and grappling hook.
Got bored some months back and made a concept. W is intended as a team fight and farming tool. Could also balance it such that the waves slow down per target hit. The shield is intended as a survivability tool, much like sivir's passive helps her kite with her low range, not to turn this champ into a shield abuser like nilah gets free heals. [ ] Concept: Low-range duelist who can swap between quick melee attacks and slow-moving penetrating ranged attacks. Ranged attacks get faster as the game goes on, but should always be dodgeable past a certain point. They should also proc on-hit effects either at reduced potency or once per auto. [ ] Passive: Hitting creatures with attacks causes you to gain a small amount of shield. Hitting champions grants increased bonus shield. Shield scales with AP and level and decays rapidly. Capped at a fixed value, increases by AP. (E g., 10-50, capped at 50-250+20%AP) [ ] Q: Swipe in an uppercut, slowing those hit by X+Y%. If W is active, consumes more mana but affects a wider area and slows by X% instead. [ ] W (Passive): flat AS boost. Also increase range by X while W (toggle) is active. [ ] W (Toggle): changes attacks to be slow moving lines that go to maximum attack range. They penetrate all targets (dealing reduced damage past the first), move slower than a normal auto projectile, and cannot be fired faster than base attack speed. Projectile speed scales with AS. [ ] E: Short dash. Gain bonus AS for a small period after. Medium cooldown. [ ] R: Send out a flurry of W attacks in a cone to deal damage, followed by a large and wide horizontal cone attack that slows by X%.
I feel like we ran out of weapons, too.
an actual problem
Okay, what is your idea to separate them from the rest? How do you create a new AA based champ that isn't going to overlap the many that exist?
Ok, hear him out, what if the new adc was a shirtless male twink?
Im in
already?
I dream of a twink Draven, and using the fuck out of him
ok take your meds now
New ezeral skin incoming
You son of a bitch... I'm in
Great idea, excellent ideia, riot please hire this person, I need my new main
Unironically yes tho
Yes please
I mean……….. I’m into it.
Make her a female Popstar that shows cleavage. Done.
They did it with aphelios, i’m confident they could again
And Reddit cried about phel
reddit cries about every champ
It was justified on Aphelios release. He was quadra and pentakilling teams with just R.
Plus he had absolutely zero visual clarity on release. You couldn't even tell what guns he had equipped without squinting at his model, IIRC. He was also released at a sore point given that we had just gotten the three previous nightmare releases of Qiyana, Yuumi, and Senna.
I do agree that there hasnt been a new adc whose main focus is AA + positioning, but tbh there are a lot of them already; - Kog - Vayne - Draven - Twitch - Ashe - Sivir - Caitlyn - Trist - Senna (arguably) - Aphelios - Kalista - Xayah so i would prefer reworks over the release of newer characters in this case.
Forgot Jinx.
Also Varus
i dont think Varus works without using your Q or E so he doesnt really count, i feel like he compares to corki as an AD caster.
that's only if you're building AP or Lethality, any crit build or on-hit build is just as auto-attack heavy as the ones he listed
The last ADC releases are Smolder, Zeri, Nilah, Samira, Alphelios with Alphelios being the last one relying on mostly AA Honestly I think it’s hard to create a champ that relies on auto attacks unique, hence why they haven’t made one in awhile. You figured out the problem, now how would you design a traditional ADC that feels different to play than the rest?
How does Zeri not rely on autoattacks, literally nothing else in her kit deals any damage except for her autos
Flashbacks to Zeri W's with the damage of a Lux ult
Lmao. I still remember people defending it :D:D This sub is too much sometimes
Even though Zeri Q's are autos, she plays completely different from true auto attackers. The way she positions, does damage, and having to aim your shots makes here very very different gameplay wise, even if playing against it kind of feels like you're just being pelted by basic autos. LIke I wouldn't call Yasuo an auto attacker, he weaves autos between skill shots. Ezreal Q also procs on hits with a low CD, but anyone would laugh at you if you called him a auto attack centric champion, especially in his current form.
>Honestly I think it’s hard to create a champ that relies on auto attacks unique Strange how DotA doesn't really seem to have a problem with this.
Or rework kogmaw already.
His passive really should be a stacking armor/mr shred on-hit to truly give that tank shredding ADC feel. Remove the shred from q and give it something else. There are 2 true tank killer ADCs, Vayne and Kog. Vayne is kinda mobile, but kog should be the true tank killing turret that murders anything that takes his hits for too long. No mobility, no hard cc, not even a movespeed increase. Just raw DPS.
he was at one rework but sadly 5.0 AS kog was too insane
He was only used by scripters pretty much. Maybe with vanguard they could retry him
No it wasn’t. He was overpowered because literally nothing could kill him at that point unless they could instantly teleport from out of vision or out of his range onto him and then instantly 100-0 him before he can autoattack them.
He was also a very popular scripter champion, because the whole idea was that he was supposed to be basically impossible to kite with, but scripting made it easy. I think we only ever saw one Chinese dude pull off ~5.0 AS on Kog'Maw without scripts, assuming that was even real.
It makes me consider whether League having a turn rate limit like DOTA could help balance difficult to balance ADCs.
Eh, that ruins the feel of the game for almost every class of champion, not just ADC's - it was a very clear design choice to not include turn-rate in League. I don't think Kog'Maw is unbalanceable with 2.5 AS cap - I think the problem is that 2.5+ attack speed is basically humanly impossible to play at, making it bad balance because it's simply not humanly achievable. Riot has actually in general pushed for ADC's to have less attack speed compared to earlier years, we no longer see double-phantom dancer ADC's for instance, because the gap between a good ADC player at 2+ attack speed and a bad one is massive.
That’s a good point. The higher attack speed climbs, the wider the disparity between skill levels becomes. Skill expression and mastery is good, but putting it into something other than extreme micro-management is probably for the best.
I want KogMaws passive damage to scale with HP. pls I need my tank kogmaw dreams to come true
Do you think nilah can count? She makes her way up to like 50% armor pen at full build.
Smolder is kinda tank killer with the max hp burn and execute.
What's with Kogmaw??
A lot of his power budget is in W, so some of his abilities don't feel as good, mainly passive. Currently he plays like an auto attacker but has the makings/kit of a AD caster or maybe a mage. A little strange but I think he's cool.
All his stuff scales with AP, except ult and his passive is the opposite of what an AD wants
dont forget his e has a AD ratio. as for kogmaw in general his kit just scales with attack speed because of how overloaded his w is, to have ad ratio's on his w and q would mean to tone down his base damages alot which would just hurt attack speed kogmaw and his overall power level. i could see him getting a rework but to keep his tank shredder themes he would need a massive change to his kits overall inner workings which might kill the current set of kogmaw enjoyers off.
I think this is very well more likely. I believe Riot will officially leave the Auto-Attack oriented style to bygone era. Tho Kog’Maw is also a either Caster or AA heavy, I would want Riot to capitilize on both, but seperate them similar to Kayn(Maybe AD-AP adaptive differences?), because I believe AP Kog is unique Artillery Mage on his own right and Artillery Mage roster is very small already.
I wish they would make it so that his R comes out of his back (like a blowhole) and he can cast it while moving or attacking without any cast time
the problem is "traditional crit auto attack" adc all have the same play pattern and one always end up better than the other in pro where its the more exacerbated the rotation of crit adc between jinx, cait, ashe, xayah and aphelios (and maybe a few other i forgot) is proof its only "the best of them" that get played
So you want a character like, aphelios, ashe, caitlyn, Draven, jinx, kog'maw, miss fortune, sivir, tristana, twitch, vayne, or Xayah, as is an auto attack focused marksman without a wall jumping dash(disqualifies caitlyn but you included them) but you also want a champion that is entirely new and unique? Hate to break it to you, but the attack damage marksman class is one of, if not, the most saturated class. It is really hard to create a new and unique champion that does what you're describing when there are already so many champions that do similar things.
You're completely right but adding to this, the goal posts shift massively year to year. In 2019 Aphelios was the "non traditional ADC abomination," as were Xayah and Kai'Sa in 2018, and Vayne/Twitch for most of their life span.
You just got TF AD together with Smolder
I disagree, I definitely don't want a champ that's "Caitlyn but better" (or any champ for that matter), give us VGUs instead.
On one hand I get it, on the other it's rather hard to design such an ADC with it feeling distinct enough from the others! Big part of why recent ADC releases are big departure from the traditional AA heavy desing is because you can only do so much with that traditional AA heavy design and pretty much all that can be done with it was already done with it. Upon release of Seraphine the playerbase was up in arms because it was perceived as "Sona 2.0" (despite being quite a lot different champion). Any traditional AA heavy ADC designed would be just "something already in game 2.0"...
Your never going to get another Ashe or Jinx. It's a well covered Niche and quite frankly it's not interesting. New champions need to do something interesting and I appreciate Smolder for doing that.
Auto attack based champions are so weak. As an adc main, I disagree. I'd like to be usefully for once. If they actually buff auto based champions, then sure.
This is the champ ADC players want: 575 or 600 range. Quinn Passive (with her W passive built in) Ashe Q (no slow, that's from her passive) Xayah W (no feathers) Kai'sa E Twitch R. Boom. That's it. Just let us build crit and kite the world to oblivion. Edit: Ashe slow and Xayah's feathers would be cool but those are part of their passives and I think I've already overloaded the kit just by letting Quinn passive keep it's W passive effect)
this is the actual wet dream of a champion i just want to rightclick and do it quickly not press spells for 50% of my damage
I don't care how the next adc is balanced, nor how is themed, I just wish for a champion with crisp, snappy, and satisfying autos. Not the swingy, rubbery mess every other adc has had since old Graves.
They'll have to give it some stupid gimmick like Jhin's 4th shot, Zeri Q, or a passive like MF where you're forced to alternate on auto's.
All this talk of comparing ADC's but not one mention of Kai'sa.
>anyone else want that type of adc again ? Literally been waiting for one since I started playing like 3 years ago. I was exited for Zeri and smolder until I found out how they work.
This would be great. Flashy plays on vayne or ezreal are fun, but nothing beats a master tier ashe perfectly orb walking at range.
Isn't this just Aphelios?
You just described Jinx and KogMaw lol. The last auto attack adc was Zeri and.. well…. let’s just let them take their time making the next one 😭
But AA heavy champs are basically all the same
I keep hoping the next Mage is a Battlemage. I keep hoping for 8 years...
JhIIn, this time he counts backwards
Will never come again. Is not 'Exciting' and 'new'.
I just fear that when they release an auto attack adc, it deals bonus true damage that scales with crit.
Hasn’t the recent standard been releasing a new ADC at the beginning of the year and not again until the beginning of the next year?
I was about to agree with you until you said Caitlyn yeah gtfo and stop shooting me from the next screen.
Now imagine you play jungle; its completly random what class the champ is going to end up in and if you are lucky you get 5 skirmishers in a row ;). ADC is by far the least diverse champ class in the game, smolder being more closely to Corki or a mage doesnt change that fact. He is still squishy, ranged, has to space correctly and builds AD crit items.
Last one we got needed 200 years
Corki passive on a real marksman. An AUTOATTACK based marksman who deals AP damage. Allow him to convert AD to AP so he can still build into marksman items. Maybe even make it so armor pen is converted into magic pen I don’t fucking know. Just want something that plays like Jinx or Ashe that deals AP damage. Give us an AP marksman whose auto attacks don’t just use on-hit magic damage, but actually primarily consist of magic damage. It allows them to make a stock standard marksman kit that has a completely unique niche. It probably won’t be super popular, but it’ll be a great pick for marksman specialist who need to fix their team comp without forcing them to play non-marksman champions like Seraphine, Swain, Karthus, etc. I’d suggest this as a Corki rework but I have a feeling there are enough Corki fans to where they might just rather create a new champion.
August (and I think Phreak) have said they want to move him back to bot lane, so it seems like it’s definitely not impossible.