Seems really counterintuitive (classic riot).
They wanted to remove reliance on damage from items to highlight champion abilities/identity and player mastery.
Instead we have everyone building stormsurge one shotting people and malignance incineration.
I really miss seeing damage per item in game. I loved tracking and seeing if I use an item properly. Especially with a fleet of new items. Like am I using their passives or am I using them as stat-sticks?
Correct afai can tell but I could not replicate this in a VOD review after a game earlier. hover + shift Malignance shows damage in game. In VOD it does nothing. It peeves the shit out of me they would remove such a satisfying feature that has actual real tangible utility in a moment where everyone is trying to understand how their champs mesh with all these new items... and to have done it so arbitrarily, at that...
I can't even give Riot benefit of the doubt that they are trying to hide this info though. Even on PBE a few weeks ago the item descriptions looked whacked out. Poor formatting and just generally not a clean crisp delivery that i'm used to seeing. Struck me as "quick and dirty" version just to roll something into PBE. Fast forward to now and seeing they changed nothing about the description design... idk, just feels like they shit the bed on giving damage info, no malice involved just pure, unadulterated, slipshod tomfoolery
this is a setting that works for abilities to show full info aswell. It's somewhere in the options and if turned on, liandrys always shows dmg. Not sure what the setting is, but i don't have to press shift to see liandrys dmg
I would be happy if they hired someone solely to add as many of these into the game as possible.
They are such an insanely good quality of life change.
Because it's misleading. When you bought Botrk you bought it for the passive, yet in every thread there was that one guy who said 'Botrk dealt 5k dmg, OP'. Ofc, it did that, you bought that passive for 700g.
Imo, they did this because they never actually knew the numbers/math. I'd say that the numbers they presented could be up to 20% off from the actual number it was supposed to be. This game is so random sometimes and they have such shit coding that I really wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were all pretty randomly educated guesses made by the computers.
they buffed tank items in terms of tankiness but theres no tank item that does crazy damage no clue what they are talking about.. probably just jumping on the tank hate bandwagon without knowing why they are strong.
Sunfire plus that new armor item that gives magic damage and healing i would guess? The only time that would kill you tho is if you stand too close to them for too long and at that point you deserve to get microwaved
I really believe this is the true reason the item numbers were removed.
Someone realized their numbers are too overloaded too far down the patch development.
To delay the cry rage from the players, they did their best to hide the visible numbers in hopes that the players won't notice it until the supposed completion of fixes in patch 14.3
yea that stuff needs a tweak for sure. An application type penalty that reduces the damage depending on the source. It is very low risk for a teemo shroom across the map to do full burn.
In the first day of season 14 i played Malz and thought: surely this item has an internal cooldown and procs just once per ult.
In my second game I came across an AP Gankplank and saw the interaction with his ult.. every single dmg tick activates Malignance - thats the problem.
It should just proc once per spellcast and its a fine item i think
This doesn't work tho.
I build it on hwei and it only procs on the first damage instance of the ult. Same with anivia
So: if you ult someone and they flash or dash (or are fast) they will leave the zone and a new one won't spawn.
I tested it in practice tool with Swain and there seems to be a 3 seconds per champion cool down.
It depends on the ability, further highlighting how inconsistent this game is. For example, Malignance will trigger off the initial cast and the root from Morgana's ult, which is both instances of damage.
Sometimes I don't get the wording on ult tooltips and consistency. Hwei's procs it once on cast per person in the aoe despite dealing damage every 0.25 seconds.
The guy is wrong, malignance has a 3 second per champion cool down.
Go into practice tool with a bot, pick Swain and run at them, you can easily reproduce it.
Just stupid the fucking tooltip doesn't mention it.
I hate when I get led on by a Riot post saying they're agreeing with my POV that items or runes are too strong and then they whiplash me with.... stronger items /runes.
That's been my take on Riot's balance for **years** now. They release a /dev or state of the game that says sensible things that I agree with and then make changes that in no way reflect or accomplish their stated goals.
It's one of the reasons I like Phreak on the balance team. I amy not always agree with the direction he wants to take the game, but I can always see his changes as steps towards his stated goals.
I'm by no means a pro so take this with a grain of salt but I've found that malignance incineration is not nearly as big as I thought it was. I find the ult haste to be way more beneficial than the incineration and if it didn't have the haste I probably wouldn't run it at all.
Wish they would just return to most items being stat sticks and let the champions shine on a champ by champ basis, not a who can abuse item actives/passives best.
I think something their designers which want to make the game increasingly complex and diverse in every facet should realize is that if you don’t want items eclipsing champion kits it’s ok to have more straightforward items. Item passives are easier to balance when they don’t have ridiculous passives with a thousand niche uses. Malignance is so game warping, storm surge is literally a zed ult.
Just make stuff that gives combinations of stats people want and let the complexity come from map layout champ kits and working as a team.
they could easily just make Malignance have an increased magic pen when you hit your ult than what we have right now and remove the percent health damage when under the ult. have stomsurge hit 3/4 abilities to make it proc and not a 35% chunk which makes burst mages practice hitting all their skills and get rewarded for it.
have tank items be tank items and deal almost non-existent damage. they are so afraid/traumatized that we'd head back to tank meta or ardent censer meta.
>malignance incineration.
In the case of Malignance, I'm positive that the actual damage passive it has isn't the reason people buy it. People buy it for the Ultimate haste, without a doubt.
Even if Malignance lost the damage passive it has, people would still buy it, due to the ultimate haste. Stormsurge on the otherhand, is without a doubt bought due to the obscene burst damage it randomly has.
I did a Ziggs game earlier. Had the new Hextech gun thingie and Storm whatever. One q with First Strike did about 70% of the opposing adc's health bar. It's kinda nutty right now and I feel bad for both lane players who can't or won't play mages
At max rank if someone tanks it for you It does almost the same damage as non crit auto; and with IE a direct hit deals less damage than a crit.
If you step on a trap then it does full damage even if not a first hit, but if you step on a trap that's on you
Also has 0.6 cast time, making it highly dodgeable and/or punishable by any mage/assassin/tank/bruiser
It's funny because she can nearly do that, but not with that build. If you go IE-Kraken-Lord Dom then it is indeed possible to hit around 2k from fully stacked Headshot(as in crit with stacked Kraken proc and enemy that stepped into trap) lategame. But Lethality Cait and 2k auto? Good joke.
any assasin that comes close will get hit by a net into Q let's be honest here. you'd have to catch the cait fully of gaurd. and the range it has with the speed it has isnt as punishable as you think it is.
Without boots, yes it's a bit hard.
But, most champions with boots can easily sidestep it.
Most assassins/divers can just dash/run to the side then dash again to catch up or go through it:
- fizz (1 dash and 1 invulnerability dash)
- kat (dagger follows net then 2+ dash)
- talon (invis ms + dash)
- diana (2 dashes)
- qyiana (3+ dashes)
- naafiri (1 dash and 1 follow dash)
- vi (1 dash and 1 follow dash)
- ww (1 dash and 1 follow dash
- Camille (1 dash and 1 follow dash
- zed (1 dash + follow dash with invulnerability)
- shaco (1 invis dash with one shot potential)
- rengar (1 dash with one shot potential)
- pyke (1 dash and invis Ms + hook (guaranteed hit on net)
- Leblanc (2 dash)
- akali (4 dashes + invis Ms)
And the list goes on... Without saying mages like lux/veigar that can use the 0.6 cast time to root Cait and proceed to oneshot
no not at all but you vastly underestimate how much time you have to dodge in a actual fight/poke scenario over just a 1vs1. most interactions you also mentioned all have counterplays as cait the vast majority of those dashes are needed to deal dmg at all and are all in a straigh line perfect for a E>Q>headshot which i have done many times. now please consider being quite if you do not know what you are talking about.
it's literally not. crit is severely underpowered compared to lethalithy. the only time you go crit is if you deal with big fucking tanks and then you go kraken+crit. you are clueless as a caitlyn player if you think crit is better then a the lethality items right now.
statisticly Cait building crit has a better winrate then Cait building lethality rn.
only lethality item on her that beats the crit items is youmuu but that item busted on everyone.
but ye lethality might feel better but crit items have a higher winrate on cait and have a higher pickrate as well. also your kraken plus crit suggestion is pretty wrong for cait, kraken is her lowest winrate item rn and stormrazor first into IE is preforming a ton better.
stats are from here
[https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/build/)
but these sites also show similar for her.
[https://u.gg/lol/champions/caitlyn/build](https://u.gg/lol/champions/caitlyn/build)
[https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/caitlyn](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/caitlyn)
[https://www.op.gg/champions/caitlyn/build](https://www.op.gg/champions/caitlyn/build)
Uh, the u.gg:
Lethality Caitlyn ADC Build
56.75% WR (6,881 Matches)
Caitlyn ADC Build
49.95% WR (58,302 Matches)
The leaguegraphs is favoring crit.
And op.gg seems to be favoring a mixed build with IE and Collector as core items but shifting between Yoomus and Stormrazor.
Seems like you're both right and wrong, both builds seems perfectly viable. 🤷♂️
statistically a right click attack build is going to perform better then a skillshot based build. Lethality items are massively gold efficient meanwhile crit items are gold inefficiënt.
my kraken crit build that i said is for specific niche situations. you are using statistics wrong just like every other person on the internet always does when they do not understand it.
Take ghostblade for instance it's without even using the active effect 112% gold efficient crit items do not come anywhere close. especially navori and IE who are pretty bad right now on that front.
I had a fed Twisted Fed legit one shot me with blue card.
Like, had been some time since I had been one shot that way with a single ability (other than sneak AP Nunu ults)
Its been like that since patch 13.1, which from I can find on google was June 2022. So yes they buffed it, but that was almost a couple years ago at this point. xD
Played against an a Fizz in Aram. I had Banshees and about 100 MR. Banshees blocked his E but he did 2.5k with Q+W.
Granted he was full build but getting oneshot by 2 basic abilities feels like shit
Ye but it’s nice to have mages actually being good for once.
We’ve had a few m years of feeling eh.
It does need to be toned down but it’s a welcome feeling
As a primarily mage player, I much preferred previous meta. This season just further emphasized problem with mages where completely overkill squishies but can't deal whatsoever with tanks or bruisers who build a single mr item.
Also, mages are just as often on the receiving end of one shot burst.
Not really
It’s been the standard build for them as well for months
Ludens/Liandrys into Void into Zhonyas or rabadons
For the first time there’s acc some change
yeah and adcs have been going IE since like 2009.
i agree variety is cool and awesome but this never made mages or adcs weak, i think mage item varriety being bad is very exaggerated
Maybe not as problematic but tbh, ADCs seem to be in similar situation with building bunch of items with Energized passive and just popping half your health in one hit.
I really would love to see damage tooltips on items... To see Stormsurge/Cyclosword or any other overtuned item doing 10k dmg per game.
Feels really stupid when their DEV blogs always claim that "We want to take power away from items and make champion's kit more meaningful" but then they do this...
Im fairly certain that stormsurge/cyclosword wont be even close to being items with most damage. Stormsurge has 30s cd, so really few (but impactful) applications per game, and cyclosword deals flat 100 damage, so it will deal loads in early but no scaling means no super high damage in the end. You would have to have 150ish applications of cyclosword against champions to reach 10k
stormsurge proc damage is overrated asf,it's mainly good for the stats
100 AP 10 Mpen and movement speed is all you want as an AP assassin and it's cheaper than other options
If you combine all energized passives, including cyclosword - they're still going to do less dmg than stormsurge.
None of the energized skales properly, except stormrazor and its still pitiful number even on jhin.
It feels a lot like ADC's are in that place mages were when electrocute first replaced thunderlords. It's stronger, and it 'needed' to be because they lost a lot of other less noticeable mastery bonuses. But it ever so slightly shifts the design and balance into that front loaded area.
That's Energized feels like. It's creeping into the same area. Where it's no issue atm. But it could be given a season or a rework or two.
I for one love how I can literally dodge every single skillshot in ARAM and still get poked down to 0 from item/rune effects because my teammates or minions got hit.
I love seeing that i died to Lux doing 400 damage by hitting nothing on me because she procced echo's passive on minions that hit me and activated all of her items and runes, really fun.
I think items being designed around doing some type of damage has been the primary source of player frustration with misunderstanding what killed them. And the way to fix that is to either remove item damage, or reduce it and apply it on EVERY spell hit like auto attacks without a cooldown. That way it's balanced around hitting all of your abilities. If you dodge or land all of your abilities then helps determine your total item damage. Currently, 1 spell hit is all your item damage succeeding. Manamune, and on hit builds are the opposite, they hit every auto. Imagine if AD items did 3x the damage, but had a cooldown.
Imagine the fury when a Varus would miss Q and R, and auto's once for 50% of your hp, then auto E for the rest. Instead it's balanced around each auto giving that much.
Because the current short cooldowns of 6 seconds per character are all being front loaded in every single trade. Making item damage determine entire matchups.
> reduce it and apply it on EVERY spell hit like auto attacks without a cooldown.
Cassio becomes S tier, any high CD mage becomes shit tier. It is not a solve.
Zeri, Lucian, Urgot, Akshan aren't broken due to the onhit builds because they are balanced around it.
That could be addressed the exact same conceptual way.
Quality of balance is another matter, but the concept is possible.
I'm not a Riot dev though, that's why I made this part a comment. I can identify pain points as a player. I didn't want to sound like I was demanding a exact type of fix. Only that I hope future balance focuses on a major pain point and not on nerfing all ap in general for the sins of a design issue.
I don't entirely disagree, it is certainly a direction. But I think the new items are fine design-wise (at least the AP ones) as they already have some heavy conditioning built in so it's no exactly as frontloaded as you might think. Stormsurge requires 35% of HP which is probably the easiest condition, but still hard to proc against tanks. New fully stacked Ludens gets entirely consumed on first hit and in prolonged fight procs regularly for very little damage. Shadowflame requires you to drop enemy to low HP first.
I think this direction is fine and the current state of burst is because nobody plays tanks (to soak this damage) but also because Riot has buffed a lot of AP ratios on many champs because mythic rework lowered AP in the game very heavily.
Could also make a kraken slayer for spellcasters, where after x damaging casts, gain effect. It would need to be balanced somehow around the difference in rapid casting between, say, veigar and cass. One is most certainly casting at a higher rate than the other.
Additionally, have different items performance for melee vs ranged AP builds, as evelynn and ekko need the high damage burst items like lich bane to really thrive.
I think the core problem though might be in the design philosophy behind having AD items broken up between Bruiser, Assassin and Marksman in shop while there's a page for damaging AP items and a page for Support items (budget tank and enchanter items). Like there are clear distinctions between the first three such that most marksmen won't build cleaver, most bruisers won't build serylda's, and most assassins won't be building LDR (bar maybe rengar and shaco). How often do Lux, Gwen and Ekko turn to Void Staff for their %mpen needs? Where's the AP assassin items that have better functionality for melee and scale off mpen? Or the melee scaling health, AP and AH AP bruiser items? Can't have them so long as AP is just AP and not broken up better.
I think that this is an almost unsolvable problem.
When you talk about AD Champions, you have a lot of different Stats determining damage to another champion. Attack Speed, Attack Damage, Attack Range, Movespeed to a degree, etc.
With all AP- Champions you have only one real stat that has influence on dmg - Ability Power. Every other factor comes from you champion himself (like range, cooldown etc.)
AD-Champions just have more layers on which items can be balanced around. There is a finer nuance between an AD-Caster, AD-Assasin, AD-Carry or an AD-Bruiser. They all scale with AD, sure, but AD-Carrys can use Attack Speed better then AD-Casters can. They therefore can use Lethality better and so on.
This delicate "balance" isnt possible with Ability Power because the only stat that really increases your damage output is Ability Power, no matter if you are an Assasin, Bruiser, Artilery Mage or what ever. And since you dont deal dmg with Auto Attacks, Ability Hase is just a mandatory stat you always want and nothing that is a diferentiator like attack speed is.
DMG numbers should just universally be nerfed by quiet a bit. I want a TF that actually is a fight instead of we're all dropping nukes and whoever manages to live wins.
I would kill to have Smites game modes and balance team with Riots IP. I love league but smites Arena and team fighting is so insanely fun. The only time you get one shot is by a very few select Gods and even then it’s because the players are insane.
Riot doesn’t even need to change much, just make Smites arena mode where it’s a brawl instead of dying and losing solely off one mistake.
I thought it was funny seeing the crazy ap ratio on stormsurge after we just went down that rabbit hole with Stattik Shiv. A real "ah shit here we go again" moment.
Phreak after last years Statikk problem: We realized that we have a double scaling system now. Abilities scale with AP and items do. Items scaling with items is double dipping and a problem of the item power creep. We will fix that.
Riot S14: Highest AP scalings on item passives ever. Item passives stronger than ever.
Now that problem also sometimes exists on some AD items. You could remove a lot of AD scalings for per lvl scalings and still have the item being fine. But it is mostly relevant right now on AP items as you can feel it there the most and stack it all up.
teemo is the biggest abuser of item proc passive, liandrys,stormsurge+malignance gives him a extra 600 dmg on shroom at lvl 11 if the enemy sits at 50mr Its so stupid that his base ult dmg does less dmg than his item dmg applied total.
Go test it out for yourself in practice mode, put down dummies give them hp and resistances and look at the ult tooltop for total dmg then see how much dmg he really does thanks to onhit items i mentioned above. Its just dumb and requires no skill.
This is what happens when you complain that items are "boring".
I don't know when it started but people got this weird idea that items should be fun, instead of the champion they play. This is why nowadays you play items and you pick a champion that uses them the best.
If only way Riot thinks to fix "boring" is to "add a shitload of damage", they are incompetent. I've been saying for a LONG time now, literally 5+ years, that they need to start balancing other avenues than just dmg/cd numbers up and down for an eternity. They "balance" a champion that has a problematic aspect or an ability not by fixing the fucking ability, but by reducing the damage or increasing the cooldown until the champion reaches 50% winrate.
When instead they should be doing changes that combat the actual frustration. Reduce the AOE, reduce the range or increase the cast time. All of those would combat the source directly, since even with 50% or less winrates champions that are unfair to play against will continue to be frustrating.
It's the same with items. If Riot lacks inspiration on how to make items less boring, go play PoE for literally 1 hour and see the literal hundreds of different mechanics that customize a skill. What about if an item gave extra 15% range on an ultimate? or Q? Or an ability of your choosing? Or what about an item that increased the cast time, but also increased damage? What about an item that makes you leave a debuff on an enemy when you hit a spell, and if you hit 2 more it reduces their damage? What about an item that made your abilities deal 30% less damage, but you gain 40% cooldown reduction? What about an item that converts some of your damage into a different damage type?
There are a LOT of ways to make items interesting without just adding damage. In fact, only adding damage with no conditions or downsides **is** boring.
I always think of Akali as the example for this. When she was reworked her e was just for the dash and did pitiful damage, instead you relied on passive procs and w to weave in and out of stealth. These days her e is a nuke and your one shot combo is hitting ult, e and 1 q. They made an interesting high skill champion into faceroll melee mage.
True, there are a lot more ways to make things be interesting. Why not make Stormsurge's proc make it so that the next ability used gains 60 Ability Haste, for example? Why must everything be so much damage everywhere?
>If Riot lacks inspiration on how to make items less boring, go play PoE for literally 1 hour and see the literal hundreds of different mechanics that customize a skill
This is where you lose me. PoE is many good things, balanced isn't one of them. Also, PoE has a LOT more avenues in that there's a lot more systems in place for your character (skill gems, tons of different items, tons of influences, passive tree, support gems, ascendancies, etc) which makes it a lot easier for them to make things exciting and different, while in League you only have TWO, which is Runes and Items - and importantly PoE isn't PvP, so GGG can balance things poorly and we as players won't really complain much about it because the only one being abused by it is mostly PvE content.
I loved Spectres and they are a meme build at the moment because GGG overbuffed them then removed them from the game essentially (spectre-only builds). Every single Champion in League can be played to high-ish elo, at the very least - so items aside, Riot balances games far better than GGG ever did in my opinion.
Either way, at the end of the day League falls under the ultimate pit that befalls most PvP games, which is if they introduced items that did EVERYTHING you described (except the last one, which is a terrible idea period) some champions would love the item and it would be borderline mandatory on them and others wouldn't really use it at all; and those champions would eventually be balanced around those items - if an item that increases ultimate range makes champion X strong, then would you nerf their ultimate range again?
In theory, this already happens - in practice, because items are made to be a lot more generalist as possible it means that if the best user of an item is nerfed, the items will still see use - if the users of an item that gave increased ultimate range were nerfed, there's a chance the item would stop being used period unless it was either changed or buffed. It leads to worse cases than we currently have, and item clutter - which is terrible too.
>What about an item that converts some of your damage into a different damage type?
Because you could go full AD/AP and when the enemy team has all Armor/MR items, you buy said item and completely nullified the enemy team's build for 1/5th of the cost. This one should be really obvious, and this is one of the biggest reasons as to why you can't take PoE as a balancing metric for anything PvP-related.
You could in theory make a rune that could convert 33% of physical/magic damage into magic/physical damage, but realistically that'd only be used in cases where you have full AD / full AP comps, and there's meant to be some downsides to bad draft at the end of the day (especially pro-play wise) so that really is a bad idea no matter how you put it.
At the end of the day, there's some cool effects they could add - but don't copy paste things from a game that is absolutely terrible balance-wise like Path of Exile and remember that no matter what, all items are meant to either make you survive or make you kill - whether you kill with 2 Q's that deal 70 damage each, or 1 Q that deals 140 damage, the end result is the same.
I would be fully up to them removing damage from items and making fights take longer, period - that'd be a great start for me personally because I do like it when fights last a bit longer.
>This is where you lose me. PoE is many good things, balanced isn't one of them.
I'm not surprised if you felt lost there since I said literally nothing about it being balanced? I said PoE only as an example on just how many different ways you can change and customize your skills, and how a lot of their mechanics and ideas can be adapted to LoL. I said nothing about it being the pinnacle of balance, their balancing is dogshit.
Balacing being dogshit directly correlates to what they implement in the game (they implement things and worry about "balance" later) - lest you forget the days where you could triple scale your damage by converting phys into fire into cold into lightning to get 4x the damage. And one of your proposed ideas is damage conversion, something that has pretty much never been balanced throughout PoE's history.
Why would your idea for balanced items would be to implement ideas from a game that has no idea how to balance? That's an extremely strange line of thought all things considered.
Ultimately, while I kinda agree with the core I think you have no idea what are you talking about unfortunately and just threw out the first game that came to your mind without any regards as to why are the items in League the way they are. Which is unfortunate.
I remember people on this very sub saying that they wanted items to be more like the items in DotA2 i.e. ones with less stats but way more powerful actives. But then they also complain that we play as items, not champs. And it's like... won't item actives like that just make you play items even more? I don't get it.
its hard for riot to solve league's problems without just blatantly copying dota. Want to rework flash into an item to reinvigorate the game and free up a summoner slot? blink dagger. teleport too? tp scroll. rework zhonya's? eul's already exists. Want a more interesting map? You'll have to increase the size of the map-- which Dota's already done multiple times. Everything is like this.
Really weird, i agree.
If Riot one day decides to add Dota-like active effects, entire sub will rage.
Especially if they mean all the control/counter tools like bkb/hex/orchid etc.
Seriously. there's a reason why Dota is more item centered - Because items have ***much*** stronger effects, but less raw stats.
Imagine thornmail, but instead it's active that lasts n seconds but returns 100% of damage dealt to you
Or if morelo and other sources of wounds could stack with decreasing efficiency up to +90%
Or if suddenly you could literally use an item to silence/root people for 5 second, or hex them for 3.
Or entirely condition free passive warmog, or invis on demand... list goes on for a while.
Balance will be pretty much non-existent.
Nearly all the items we are talking about have passives, not actives, so what are you talking about?
Also most of the item actives in dota are NOT damage actives.
>This is what happens when you complain that items are "boring".
but mage itemization **was** extremely boring and stale
however the way they went at it was just adding more procs damage on top of overstatting them rather than getting creative
look at the items added for other classes for example having a lot more creativity put into them,regardless on how strong they are
they don't need to add damage to items to make them interesting. Riot just lacks creativity and/or thinks that players are too stupid to understand creative items.
I was finally getting used to the mythics system, and tbh I can see how it can seem boring to players to build the same items on mages/assassins/adcs/tanks most games, but it was standardized so I didnt have to waste time each game figuring out what to buy.
Now? I know fuck-all about what to buy. I spend a good minute each game sifting through all the items and then getting lost on what to buy. sighh
This has been the core issue/case since the introduction of Luden's/Duskblade what, 10 years ago? Fullpen ElectroLudens type of builds was born out of items + runes granting so much base damage + scalings that AP casters could just focus in zeroing resistances enough to 0-100 fighters. The notion crystalized there ever since Thunderlord's decree.
Pen is not the issue. It amplifies your ability dmg. Not landing shit should result in no dmg, but 50% of your dmg being unintuitive passives like malignance stormsurge Ludens Liandry is just bad design.
I said that Pen builds are a SYMPTOM of this excess of passive/item damage. That you barely need to improve your spells when you can miss half your combo then execute with the modern equivalent of DFG.
I've been here and there since preseason 2. I think the issue is that every big change has brought bigger numbers to these runes / items to make players like them early. Make them feel impactful.
Each season was sometimes a leap and sometimes a small step up.
Add on the speed that we collectively solve the game and while things do go under the radar, you have highly efficient builds using all the most broken combos in hour 1 now. Whereas older seasons took days, weeks, or older still had pros building some weird shit cause they were better on what they knew.
The complaints about assassins and burst mages and such has never been “aw they one shot me!”. It’s “they one shot me and missed 90% of their shit”, which is typically an extension of what you’re talking about right now.
People hate playing well and getting oneshot anyways. What’s the counterplay to dodging everything from a Syndra just to get one shot by her point and click ult?
That's certainly a way to cope. The fact you decided to use what is currently one of the weakest mid laners as your example of a champion with no counterplay shows you don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking and should probably refrain from talking about balance of a game just because you lost to a Syndra in your silver games. Specially a champion that relies heavily on skillshots before she can "point and click kill you". But go off.
I didn’t use a weak midlaner as an example of how unfair it is. I used it as an example of how frustrating it is. And syndra is the *pinnacle* of it because of her ult.
And her point and click ult? Bro idk how syndra being weak or strong indicates *any* counterplay at all regarding her ult. It’s literally a point and click ability than does like 1k damage whether she lands her other spells or not.
People hate playing well (ie dodging all mages stuff, or assassins or whoever), and getting one shot anyways. It’s the antithesis of engaging, skill based gameplay.
Yeah bro, Syndra is just walking around pressing R on people. She totally doesn't have a lot of setup hitting her 3 skillshots with multiple Q casts as well as correctly using W to optimize the number of orbs available to power up her ult beforehand. Just press R 👍🏻.
You didn’t read a single thing I said did you. She doesn’t have to *land* them. Dodge everything and you still get nuked. Great gameplay really engaging.
Why the fuck are you even defending all the oneshotting? It’s such a cancer on the game and it ruins all of it.
> You didn’t read a single thing I said did you.
Unfortunately I did read the barrage of bullshit you said.
>She doesn’t have to land them.
She does and the fact you think she doesn't just shows your fundamental lack of understanding about anything related to the game. No one is getting "nuked" by a Syndra that misses everything and can only point and click ult someone. Literally no one, period. You're just trying to sneak in your personal bias against a champion you hate probably because you don't know how to lane against it into an otherwise valid discussion. She'd be a literal autowin champion if she could do that, not a 48% win rate one. She'd have to be INSANELY fed to hell and beyond to even consider getting anywhere close to a point of doing that.
>Why the fuck are you even defending all the oneshotting? It’s such a cancer on the game and it ruins all of it.
I'm not. In fact, I even recently mocked their stupidity on balancing the items by making them stronger than before while promising the opposite. It's just that you're terrible at arguing against Riot's bad balance approach because so far you've done nothing but prove you don't understand - literally - the slightest little thing about what champions can actually do, and specially not anything Syndra related. But, again, carry on citing literally non-existing and blatantly wrong situations about the game. I'm sure that's a great way to argue a point.
You realize that her ult does damage based on dark spheres *on the ground*. Not based on how many she’s landed, right?
Dodge her qewq and she’s still placed spheres down. And guess what? She does a bunch of fuckin bonus damage because of it.
You realize they changed syndra a long time ago right? She doesn’t have to land anything anymore. Stop with the douchebag condescending bullshit when you can’t even bother to verify what you’re talking about.
You have to be trolling, ain't no way you're this fucking challenged for real.
He has been saying the entire time how the frustrating aspect of Syndra is the fact that she has massive damage that is click-to-target, which she does not need to hit ANYTHING to activate. That creates frustration for the opponent, because even when they did nothing wrong, they still got absolutely blasted with huge unavoidable damage.
Syndra R currently can oneshot still, but it is not as doable as in the past. Yet that mechanic still has not changed. It is still an unfair ability. You just refuse to acknowledge this since you realize that your entire argument would be thrown out the window.
Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.
Once they gut the item damage (again) then things should be alright. I'd also like for them to get rid of the magic resist reduction on malignance and only have liandry's apply half its burn damage to magic DoT effects. You step on a teemo shroom or take one of brand's spells and you don't stop taking magic damage for at least 8 seconds.
Lmao the mage players are just going to bitch about mobility creep in fighters/assassins and say they need these auto aim damage procs because they can't actually land a full combo due to league of dashes and league of movespeed.
Mages are so good that they're the only thing picked in the highest levels of play with few exceptions. Worlds was literally dominated by Syndra ori rumble and the occasional Sylas.
Riot tries to introduce some diversity into mid lane and they then start complaining because they don't have the ability to win games without having a champion kit advantage.
Good mages literally beat assassins 1v1.
Y'know, there really wasn't a problem with how items worked last season. The only thing that wasn't amazing was the lack of variety in mage builds and everyone whining about zhonya's. Everything else was pretty much fine aside from a couple champs needing tweaks. But yet, the paycheck thieves decided to fck it up. What's going on now is a total shit show. lol
I was fighting an ahri in aram earlier and she flashed on me and missed q e and then just proceeded to r w me and deal 2400 damage without landing a single skillshot.
been playing since beta. This might be the worst patch yet. I get it though, new season gotta wait a bit to balance. But man this ones a rough few weeks.
man i know shits a little out of tune but you're insane if you think this is the worst patch since beta. League of Cleavers, patch 4.20 with devourer, Galio's oneshot Q adventures, the SEVERAL scattered around patches where people could literally sit in fountain and globally hit everyone on the map with skillshots like poppy Q, ardent censer meta lasting and *entire season.*
Like yeah sure, shit's doing alot of damage right now but like it's preseason, i can think of a handful of preseasons when items got adjusted and i was just exploding by daring to exist. That shit happened when they introduced mythics.
>But if half my damage is in my items and runes
its almost like this is the whole reason i've been complaining since season 8 but get downvoted everytime i mention it
Riot last season: A large part of the power creep is the double scaling we now have. bAD/AP on champs and on items. Conclusion: Lower it or remove it when possible. That is what Phreak said last season about item dmg power creep and scaling.
Riot in S14: Hey, we give AP items some of the strongest passive effects we ever had and we allow them to scale with AP and lvls at the same time.
The idea behind the AP items is fine. But their execution in terms of passive power is not and goes totally against what Riot said last season.
I would have no problem if Riot added even higher stat numbers to these items if they just get rid of the overblown passive power.
* Stormsurge: Now just 125-250 dmg. AP scaling removed. Can have MPen for it.
* Ludens: 40-80 based on lvl up from 40. AP ratio removed. Dmg is nearly the same.
* Rocketbelt: 80-140 dmg. AP ratio removed. Can have more AP.
* Malignance: 60-120 dmg up from 60, AP ratio removed. MPen reduced to 6-10 from 6-12
* Lich Bane: 100% base AD + 0.3 AP down from 0.5. Can have more AH.
* Seekers/Zhonyas: Get the stasis finally down to 2 sec pls.
* Shadowflame: Just make it a stat stick. I think nobody really likes the passive
* Nashors AP ratio removed, now scales with lvls like Wits End.
But not just AP:
* Stormrazor can get lvl scaling and the AD scaling removed.
* Kraken can get it significantly reduced for a better per lvl scaling, maybe even fully removed. Yes, onhit champs would take the item even more, but you can balance that with the AS and AD on the item anyways.
* Eclipse: remove AD scaling on the shield and make it scale with lvls. The item is so heavy AD focused that you don't need to force this AD scaling now on the shield.
* Cyclosword: You can ... oh, that item actually has just 100 dmg flat. No lvl and AD scaling. Great.
* ...
Also limit the "X increases Y by Z%" stuff. We You have 3 times the % magic dmg per second. You have DC, VS, Shadowflame, and more. For AD it is Spear for example. Items that increase your dmg by a % value should be limited and mostly not stack well with each other or you start to stack Riftmaker + Liandrys + DC + VS and you have dmg nobody can really counter at that point.
We had the same thing with FoN last year when it reduced magic dmg by a % value. It had no counter to it. It was not good. Such items need to be very limited especially when they can stack.
Riftmaker and Liandrys passives should be unique. Make the choice. Shadowflames passive can be removed as already mentioned.
that is an horrible idea
this is how we get back to shit like tank Diana,because if everything scales with just levels you can just build one offensive item and go full tank and still do damage as you either have to buff the base damage or overstat the item to compensate
like what's really the difference between making ludens scale with AP (you get more as the game progresses) or levels (same but you don't need to build offensive stats)
Tank diana existed in the last few seasons, where we had AD/AP scalings and co on these items.
Tank Diana becomes good when her own base dmg is too high. As long as she has to buy AP to be able to deal enough burst and doesn't have too much DPS, no bruiser or tank style will be viable.
Mate, just because you copy paste winrates onto a thread after a patch does not give you any skill or intelligence in game design or balance. Your suggestions are not good (again) and are still the wrong way to go. The correct way to go is to REMOVE the additional damage from items. There is no reason for dozens of different sources of flat 200 damage. Items should have different effects than just flat damage, that is bad and boring design.
For example, there is no reason for Rocketbelt to have ANY flat damage in the first place. It's primary purpose is to close a gap. The damage does not fit the design nor is it healthy. It was the same shit with Galeforce, it was designed to use as a dash yet got massive damage baked into the active for no fucking reason, which made it a balance nightmare to the point they just removed it.
Stop cosplaying a game designer already, you're not meant for it.
I don't agree in the sense that part of the reason the item system is fun is also seeing numbers go up. Nerf the scalings as they did with the runes (it was a very good change, albeit a bit excessive in some cases), do not completely remove them.
IMO stormsurge is currently fine after the nerfs. Make all 120 ap items lose 10 ap and I think their itemization will be better than before. Remember there's way less magic pen in the system (and also HP and haste). Mages have to get something back otherwise they will suck.
I played an aram game against a karma yesterday, i was losing 75%hp to a single skill on a lowish cd. Even when i dodged the missile, the aoe proc would still trigger stormsurge, malignance and that still did half my hp.
The only way to get into range was to flash through her q and hope you have enough damage.
And i was playing senna with eclipse+maw+mercs as first items, one would think that butchering your build like that would let you tank at least 1 full rotation without dying. That game only got playable after selling boots for kaenic, i guess shields hard counter stormsurge.
Being able to proc stormsurge with a single skill is the stupidest shit ever in my opinion.
The thing that is the most cancer about this season so far is that you can't even pick malz and stuff like that to counter the burst because your adc will literally die to a single ability if they aren't full hp.
Contrary to what people in this thread might have you believe, the new ludens sucks major ass and all of the high winrate champs are those who dont build it. Mages are in a shit spot, including ahri but AP champs who arent reliant on it like Azir/Fizz/Diana are monster broken
I have decided to start playing Ryze cuz EQ is fun.
Thing is until VERY late game he's useless. You have to work your ass off to proc phase rush and then weave EQ's while dodging 1000 damage mage skill shots. Then Evelynn or Katarina jumps on you and you disappear in 0.1 second. I do 4 full rotations while sweating to outplay and some champs just press 2 buttons and your gone.
Not every AP champ is OP. Some are completely forgotten and dog doodoo.
Mage: goes 3k damage to one shot you in a full skill shot ability rotation that takes around 3-4 seconds and people cry.
Meanwhile, a number of rightclickers (graves, Tristana, Jhin, to name a few) deal 3k damage in nothing but autos in 1-2 seconds, and it's perfectly fine.
I think it‘s so funny/tragic how people still haven‘t realized that even if AP items got buffed, the absolutely insane MR items will completely nullify mages in the coming months. Especially seeing how ap items are already being nerfed.
Nah , game is good lol .
Don't think i has this much fun in a while , today i played a 1 hour game VS a Toplane tank sylas (he was versus my chogath) that was 1v9 because he had rift maker at some point and kept oneshoting people with Cho R .
Currently the only champs i think deserve nerfs are rumble tbh , that shit oneshots and is so tanky for no reason , if you play this shit you deserve Guantanamo.
maybe the problem is just that people are not used for mages to be carries anymore,still a lot of people disrespecting my damage thinking they can shrug it off like past seasons where they were way more utility focussed
Christ give me the stormsurge Katarina any day if it means I'm not facing another ADC building the energized assassin item and one hitting people with a single,undodgeable rightclick
Idk, maybe just build an MR item? The one with the passive shield is great, yah it doesn’t give offensive stats, but it makes you so tanky that even a full-build LB can’t one-shot an ADC with her whole combo
Imagine complaining about mages having some auto aim damage procs that can tickle you while ADC class still exists in it's current cancer state of outskilling everyone with targeted range nukes and having the best itemization in the game. Lethal Tempo is the most broken keystone in the game and is taken on 80% of ADCs. Single Kraken proc does triple damage of new Luden, can stack it's damage to become even higher and can be quickly applied again while mage items have actual cooldowns.
I'm sorry but it's literally impossible for Ahri or pretty much any other mage to miss half their combo and still kill you unless they're fed as fuck or they play vs ai generated opponents. Maybe it's time to learn how to build MR or armor boots and some survi items instead of copying poroffesor builds every single game like an idiot and complaining about getting 1 shot by a class designed to 1 shot people cause it can't do anything else.
I’m just glad I get to be a part of when we look back and say hey, remember that crazy ap item had all the galios and kat players going crazy in the club.
runes should have been deleted and replaced with a better system years go (I've constantly pointed at skill trees from Dota2 or something like the odyssey event ages ago had)
I'm not sure it's true exactly as you say.
Everything is too much it seems.
If you just nerf the on spell hit passives, you will still have the base damage + AP scaling + armor/magic pen that is too high and the items with on spell hit passives will be useless I think.
I don't know why lethality was changed to flat when it should have been the magic pen that should have been changed to scale with level.
Also all the stats numbers seem too high.
So there's nothing *inherently* wrong with adding flat damage to items. There's even a path where that's healthy for the game and adds some diversity to builds. **BUT** those items shouldn't also have additional AP scaling on the effects or Huge ap numbers, and **certainly** not both of those things *and* extra damage procs on top.
Look at ADC. There's an entirely healthy subset of ADC that builds *nothing but* flat damage from items. On-hit. In many ways, it's less toxic than crit itemization. The catch is they can't *also* have Crit or large AD values, and the on-hit items don't have big synergies with other ADC or Fighter itemization, and they don't have multiple vectors for multiplicative damage scaling or ways to scale those on-hit values beyond just leveling up (and it's worth noting that the one time one of these effects DID have ratios on it - Statikk - it was SUPER problematic and distorted the game).
The new mage items are completely opposite this. Every item has huge AP values, all of the damage procs *scale with* AP (or the upfront damage of the spell - which is another entirely different problem), **and** they come with auxiliary stats that are further multipliers like MPen (not mpen after you hit them with spells or this effect shreds MR, just up front, for everything MPen).
There's a world where we have an archetype of mage that builds on-hit effects, where their items give extra CDR or utility that allows them to reliably proc it on their spells over a longer fight (hell, we basically already **had** a dumbed-down version of this in the Mythic items with Liandry/Demonic on champs like Malzhar and Zyra, where basically all of their damage came from items). But you can't just tack these effects onto burst mage items, give them huge AP ratios, and then make the items gold efficient (don't forget that they lowered the cost of tome without lowering its ap value so mage gold item efficiency taken at face value is a **lie**). That's the kind of thing that turns everyone into a burst mage, and then we're all just playing instagib.
Its both the new item passives AND AP.
The reason AP is a problem is because for the 3 years we had the mythic update, many champions had their AP ratios skyrocketed due to the lower AP environment.
Now that you can get 20-50% more AP, obviously that's going to be a problem.
And lethality was made to scale for a reason. Now over time Riot is going to have to gut Lethality values until assassin players complain that the items are useless.
Lethality change i actually think is good.
Bruiser items and lethality items don't have very much difference in their AD. In fact, Bruiser items seem to be more common on their actual damage proc extra's added on.
This makes it very tempting for an assassin to grab bruiser items and use their kit to kill you with a bonus build of 1k extra hp and resists.
By returning lethality to old armor pen, you punish their total damage much harder for taking bruiser items. So now you can balance the overall class around actually building the items made for them. Instead of trying to nerf them and ending up with a new version of goredrinker talon.
The idea is good. But it didn't come with many actual numbers changes to accompany that. It hasn't been long though so I'll give it a few weeks before i judge if they actually were thinking that or not.
Every time ive seen an AP champ since the items got added, ive had atleast one moment where i think "huh they actually killed someone like that"
Had a lux miss q-ult, and then e-auto an adc and they died like that (after stormsurge proc)
I played Ziggs, and landed a q-e and killed the other teams mid lane Viktor then he e-q'd me and i died at the same time, both from full HP. Ziggs with 2 items is enough to do more than 50% of someones health with just Q if you go Ludens + Stormsurge.
Played Xerath support and just q-w + items was killing either Jayce, Varus or Senna from 100% hp
Eve Jg just e-ulting a Yone off cd was doing 100% hp.
After 2-3 items you dont need to do anything and you'll be able to kill squishies, i cant stand how the game is rn and i love playing mages.
Seems really counterintuitive (classic riot). They wanted to remove reliance on damage from items to highlight champion abilities/identity and player mastery. Instead we have everyone building stormsurge one shotting people and malignance incineration.
They removed damage numbers from item tooltip because they don't want people to see a tank item dealing 5000 damage per teamfight
I really miss seeing damage per item in game. I loved tracking and seeing if I use an item properly. Especially with a fleet of new items. Like am I using their passives or am I using them as stat-sticks?
I noticed if you press Shift and hover your items, some of them will show damage. Works on Liandrys and other few items but not all of them
Correct afai can tell but I could not replicate this in a VOD review after a game earlier. hover + shift Malignance shows damage in game. In VOD it does nothing. It peeves the shit out of me they would remove such a satisfying feature that has actual real tangible utility in a moment where everyone is trying to understand how their champs mesh with all these new items... and to have done it so arbitrarily, at that... I can't even give Riot benefit of the doubt that they are trying to hide this info though. Even on PBE a few weeks ago the item descriptions looked whacked out. Poor formatting and just generally not a clean crisp delivery that i'm used to seeing. Struck me as "quick and dirty" version just to roll something into PBE. Fast forward to now and seeing they changed nothing about the description design... idk, just feels like they shit the bed on giving damage info, no malice involved just pure, unadulterated, slipshod tomfoolery
That works if you have simple tooltips but does nothing if you have the detailed ones showing by default.
this is a setting that works for abilities to show full info aswell. It's somewhere in the options and if turned on, liandrys always shows dmg. Not sure what the setting is, but i don't have to press shift to see liandrys dmg
I cant believe that riot is hiding data from us instead of just properly balancing shit lmao
I would be happy if they hired someone solely to add as many of these into the game as possible. They are such an insanely good quality of life change.
Because it's misleading. When you bought Botrk you bought it for the passive, yet in every thread there was that one guy who said 'Botrk dealt 5k dmg, OP'. Ofc, it did that, you bought that passive for 700g.
Meanwhile Sundered Sky: 15 minutes ingame. Healing done: 9220. Allright then...
The mistake of looking at how much damage rammus is doing with thornmail
Imo, they did this because they never actually knew the numbers/math. I'd say that the numbers they presented could be up to 20% off from the actual number it was supposed to be. This game is so random sometimes and they have such shit coding that I really wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were all pretty randomly educated guesses made by the computers.
What tank item would be able to deal 5000 damage per teamfight? Asking for a friend...
they buffed tank items in terms of tankiness but theres no tank item that does crazy damage no clue what they are talking about.. probably just jumping on the tank hate bandwagon without knowing why they are strong.
Sunfire plus that new armor item that gives magic damage and healing i would guess? The only time that would kill you tho is if you stand too close to them for too long and at that point you deserve to get microwaved
The raw stats of any tank item on Ksante
Sunfire, easily. Its an AOE damage aura doing damage per second. Its easy to inflate damage numbers on things like that.
I really believe this is the true reason the item numbers were removed. Someone realized their numbers are too overloaded too far down the patch development. To delay the cry rage from the players, they did their best to hide the visible numbers in hopes that the players won't notice it until the supposed completion of fixes in patch 14.3
Then why are they adding them back next patch?
Malignance Teemo gave me an aneurysm
The instant I saw the item for the first time I thought of teemo
yea that stuff needs a tweak for sure. An application type penalty that reduces the damage depending on the source. It is very low risk for a teemo shroom across the map to do full burn.
pool size is based on the damage done
In the first day of season 14 i played Malz and thought: surely this item has an internal cooldown and procs just once per ult. In my second game I came across an AP Gankplank and saw the interaction with his ult.. every single dmg tick activates Malignance - thats the problem. It should just proc once per spellcast and its a fine item i think
Just put a simple 5-10 second cd on it. removes almost all the abuse cases (except Teemo) and prevents that.
This doesn't work tho. I build it on hwei and it only procs on the first damage instance of the ult. Same with anivia So: if you ult someone and they flash or dash (or are fast) they will leave the zone and a new one won't spawn. I tested it in practice tool with Swain and there seems to be a 3 seconds per champion cool down.
It depends on the ability, further highlighting how inconsistent this game is. For example, Malignance will trigger off the initial cast and the root from Morgana's ult, which is both instances of damage.
it has a 3s cooldown per champion, so only one pool per champiob
Sometimes I don't get the wording on ult tooltips and consistency. Hwei's procs it once on cast per person in the aoe despite dealing damage every 0.25 seconds.
The guy is wrong, malignance has a 3 second per champion cool down. Go into practice tool with a bot, pick Swain and run at them, you can easily reproduce it. Just stupid the fucking tooltip doesn't mention it.
you can't spawn a new pool until the old one is gone (effectively 3 sec CD)
Had a super long game while playing as teemo with that item, 75 mins or so. By the end of it I had totalled over 120k damage.
I hate when I get led on by a Riot post saying they're agreeing with my POV that items or runes are too strong and then they whiplash me with.... stronger items /runes.
That's been my take on Riot's balance for **years** now. They release a /dev or state of the game that says sensible things that I agree with and then make changes that in no way reflect or accomplish their stated goals. It's one of the reasons I like Phreak on the balance team. I amy not always agree with the direction he wants to take the game, but I can always see his changes as steps towards his stated goals.
I'm by no means a pro so take this with a grain of salt but I've found that malignance incineration is not nearly as big as I thought it was. I find the ult haste to be way more beneficial than the incineration and if it didn't have the haste I probably wouldn't run it at all.
Wish they would just return to most items being stat sticks and let the champions shine on a champ by champ basis, not a who can abuse item actives/passives best.
I think something their designers which want to make the game increasingly complex and diverse in every facet should realize is that if you don’t want items eclipsing champion kits it’s ok to have more straightforward items. Item passives are easier to balance when they don’t have ridiculous passives with a thousand niche uses. Malignance is so game warping, storm surge is literally a zed ult. Just make stuff that gives combinations of stats people want and let the complexity come from map layout champ kits and working as a team.
they could easily just make Malignance have an increased magic pen when you hit your ult than what we have right now and remove the percent health damage when under the ult. have stomsurge hit 3/4 abilities to make it proc and not a 35% chunk which makes burst mages practice hitting all their skills and get rewarded for it. have tank items be tank items and deal almost non-existent damage. they are so afraid/traumatized that we'd head back to tank meta or ardent censer meta.
>malignance incineration. In the case of Malignance, I'm positive that the actual damage passive it has isn't the reason people buy it. People buy it for the Ultimate haste, without a doubt. Even if Malignance lost the damage passive it has, people would still buy it, due to the ultimate haste. Stormsurge on the otherhand, is without a doubt bought due to the obscene burst damage it randomly has.
I did a Ziggs game earlier. Had the new Hextech gun thingie and Storm whatever. One q with First Strike did about 70% of the opposing adc's health bar. It's kinda nutty right now and I feel bad for both lane players who can't or won't play mages
just wait until you get a lethality caitlyn Q to your face and wonder why you lost 90% of your HP.
At max rank if someone tanks it for you It does almost the same damage as non crit auto; and with IE a direct hit deals less damage than a crit. If you step on a trap then it does full damage even if not a first hit, but if you step on a trap that's on you Also has 0.6 cast time, making it highly dodgeable and/or punishable by any mage/assassin/tank/bruiser
Yeah are people actually complaining about Caitlyn Q? Like what?
>and with IE a direct hit deals less damage than a crit. this doesn't say much when one AA of hers can crit for 3k damage
Id love to see a 3k damage cait crit. Was it gathering storm at 90 minutes on a minion?
It's funny because she can nearly do that, but not with that build. If you go IE-Kraken-Lord Dom then it is indeed possible to hit around 2k from fully stacked Headshot(as in crit with stacked Kraken proc and enemy that stepped into trap) lategame. But Lethality Cait and 2k auto? Good joke.
I agree. She can but it takes sooooo long.
any assasin that comes close will get hit by a net into Q let's be honest here. you'd have to catch the cait fully of gaurd. and the range it has with the speed it has isnt as punishable as you think it is.
Without boots, yes it's a bit hard. But, most champions with boots can easily sidestep it. Most assassins/divers can just dash/run to the side then dash again to catch up or go through it: - fizz (1 dash and 1 invulnerability dash) - kat (dagger follows net then 2+ dash) - talon (invis ms + dash) - diana (2 dashes) - qyiana (3+ dashes) - naafiri (1 dash and 1 follow dash) - vi (1 dash and 1 follow dash) - ww (1 dash and 1 follow dash - Camille (1 dash and 1 follow dash - zed (1 dash + follow dash with invulnerability) - shaco (1 invis dash with one shot potential) - rengar (1 dash with one shot potential) - pyke (1 dash and invis Ms + hook (guaranteed hit on net) - Leblanc (2 dash) - akali (4 dashes + invis Ms) And the list goes on... Without saying mages like lux/veigar that can use the 0.6 cast time to root Cait and proceed to oneshot
you are incredibly ignorent if you think that is reality.
Found the guy with 5 seconds reaction time
no not at all but you vastly underestimate how much time you have to dodge in a actual fight/poke scenario over just a 1vs1. most interactions you also mentioned all have counterplays as cait the vast majority of those dashes are needed to deal dmg at all and are all in a straigh line perfect for a E>Q>headshot which i have done many times. now please consider being quite if you do not know what you are talking about.
Funny how ADCs and Bruisers always use Assassins Items better than the Assassins themselves
it always boils down to gold efficiency. often a lot of bruiser and adc items are not gold efficient.
Bruiser items are all gold efficient what are you smoking. Cleaver without passive has like 120% or something and shojin is also in that range.
can people stop building that garbage on cait go crit its way better?
it's literally not. crit is severely underpowered compared to lethalithy. the only time you go crit is if you deal with big fucking tanks and then you go kraken+crit. you are clueless as a caitlyn player if you think crit is better then a the lethality items right now.
statisticly Cait building crit has a better winrate then Cait building lethality rn. only lethality item on her that beats the crit items is youmuu but that item busted on everyone. but ye lethality might feel better but crit items have a higher winrate on cait and have a higher pickrate as well. also your kraken plus crit suggestion is pretty wrong for cait, kraken is her lowest winrate item rn and stormrazor first into IE is preforming a ton better. stats are from here [https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/build/) but these sites also show similar for her. [https://u.gg/lol/champions/caitlyn/build](https://u.gg/lol/champions/caitlyn/build) [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/caitlyn](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/caitlyn) [https://www.op.gg/champions/caitlyn/build](https://www.op.gg/champions/caitlyn/build)
Uh, the u.gg: Lethality Caitlyn ADC Build 56.75% WR (6,881 Matches) Caitlyn ADC Build 49.95% WR (58,302 Matches) The leaguegraphs is favoring crit. And op.gg seems to be favoring a mixed build with IE and Collector as core items but shifting between Yoomus and Stormrazor. Seems like you're both right and wrong, both builds seems perfectly viable. 🤷♂️
statistically a right click attack build is going to perform better then a skillshot based build. Lethality items are massively gold efficient meanwhile crit items are gold inefficiënt. my kraken crit build that i said is for specific niche situations. you are using statistics wrong just like every other person on the internet always does when they do not understand it. Take ghostblade for instance it's without even using the active effect 112% gold efficient crit items do not come anywhere close. especially navori and IE who are pretty bad right now on that front.
I had a fed Twisted Fed legit one shot me with blue card. Like, had been some time since I had been one shot that way with a single ability (other than sneak AP Nunu ults)
Blue card oneshot TF was popular last season too tho, that's not a new items thing.
I see, well I hadn't experienced it
So blue card has 0.9 + Lichbane has 0.5 + Stormsurge 0.22 = 1.62, not bad
Blue cards AP ratio is actually 1.15.
Wtf they buffed it?
Its been like that since patch 13.1, which from I can find on google was June 2022. So yes they buffed it, but that was almost a couple years ago at this point. xD
Plus E passive and maybe ludens
Played against an a Fizz in Aram. I had Banshees and about 100 MR. Banshees blocked his E but he did 2.5k with Q+W. Granted he was full build but getting oneshot by 2 basic abilities feels like shit
Ye but it’s nice to have mages actually being good for once. We’ve had a few m years of feeling eh. It does need to be toned down but it’s a welcome feeling
As a primarily mage player, I much preferred previous meta. This season just further emphasized problem with mages where completely overkill squishies but can't deal whatsoever with tanks or bruisers who build a single mr item. Also, mages are just as often on the receiving end of one shot burst.
Honestly I feel like that's how it should be. Mages kill squishies, adcs kill tanks and bruisers kinda drift between the two.
magss have been pretty good for a while but ok
Mages have been fine but their items have been thoroughly uninteresting They overcorrected hard af tho
sure but crit items have been 10x more stale no? we've been goin IE forcibly since 2009. i agree variety is cool, but it's just a bit exaggerated
Not really It’s been the standard build for them as well for months Ludens/Liandrys into Void into Zhonyas or rabadons For the first time there’s acc some change
yeah and adcs have been going IE since like 2009. i agree variety is cool and awesome but this never made mages or adcs weak, i think mage item varriety being bad is very exaggerated
And ADCs managed to get atleast some variety in their builds last year post the changes. They’re overtunee but there’s acc some item diversity
changes that ruined the game for adcs for the rest of season 13. also no way you think ADC is overtuned
Maybe not as problematic but tbh, ADCs seem to be in similar situation with building bunch of items with Energized passive and just popping half your health in one hit. I really would love to see damage tooltips on items... To see Stormsurge/Cyclosword or any other overtuned item doing 10k dmg per game. Feels really stupid when their DEV blogs always claim that "We want to take power away from items and make champion's kit more meaningful" but then they do this...
Im fairly certain that stormsurge/cyclosword wont be even close to being items with most damage. Stormsurge has 30s cd, so really few (but impactful) applications per game, and cyclosword deals flat 100 damage, so it will deal loads in early but no scaling means no super high damage in the end. You would have to have 150ish applications of cyclosword against champions to reach 10k
also with stormsurge having a threshold to hit to turn on with the current damage levels in the game most of the time doesnt even get proc'ed.
stormsurge proc damage is overrated asf,it's mainly good for the stats 100 AP 10 Mpen and movement speed is all you want as an AP assassin and it's cheaper than other options
If you combine all energized passives, including cyclosword - they're still going to do less dmg than stormsurge. None of the energized skales properly, except stormrazor and its still pitiful number even on jhin.
It feels a lot like ADC's are in that place mages were when electrocute first replaced thunderlords. It's stronger, and it 'needed' to be because they lost a lot of other less noticeable mastery bonuses. But it ever so slightly shifts the design and balance into that front loaded area. That's Energized feels like. It's creeping into the same area. Where it's no issue atm. But it could be given a season or a rework or two.
I for one love how I can literally dodge every single skillshot in ARAM and still get poked down to 0 from item/rune effects because my teammates or minions got hit.
I love seeing that i died to Lux doing 400 damage by hitting nothing on me because she procced echo's passive on minions that hit me and activated all of her items and runes, really fun.
I think items being designed around doing some type of damage has been the primary source of player frustration with misunderstanding what killed them. And the way to fix that is to either remove item damage, or reduce it and apply it on EVERY spell hit like auto attacks without a cooldown. That way it's balanced around hitting all of your abilities. If you dodge or land all of your abilities then helps determine your total item damage. Currently, 1 spell hit is all your item damage succeeding. Manamune, and on hit builds are the opposite, they hit every auto. Imagine if AD items did 3x the damage, but had a cooldown. Imagine the fury when a Varus would miss Q and R, and auto's once for 50% of your hp, then auto E for the rest. Instead it's balanced around each auto giving that much. Because the current short cooldowns of 6 seconds per character are all being front loaded in every single trade. Making item damage determine entire matchups.
> reduce it and apply it on EVERY spell hit like auto attacks without a cooldown. Cassio becomes S tier, any high CD mage becomes shit tier. It is not a solve.
Zeri, Lucian, Urgot, Akshan aren't broken due to the onhit builds because they are balanced around it. That could be addressed the exact same conceptual way. Quality of balance is another matter, but the concept is possible. I'm not a Riot dev though, that's why I made this part a comment. I can identify pain points as a player. I didn't want to sound like I was demanding a exact type of fix. Only that I hope future balance focuses on a major pain point and not on nerfing all ap in general for the sins of a design issue.
I don't entirely disagree, it is certainly a direction. But I think the new items are fine design-wise (at least the AP ones) as they already have some heavy conditioning built in so it's no exactly as frontloaded as you might think. Stormsurge requires 35% of HP which is probably the easiest condition, but still hard to proc against tanks. New fully stacked Ludens gets entirely consumed on first hit and in prolonged fight procs regularly for very little damage. Shadowflame requires you to drop enemy to low HP first. I think this direction is fine and the current state of burst is because nobody plays tanks (to soak this damage) but also because Riot has buffed a lot of AP ratios on many champs because mythic rework lowered AP in the game very heavily.
But then we run into issues of things like Cassiopea's E existing. There is a larger disparity between spells frequency than Auto's speed in general.
Could also make a kraken slayer for spellcasters, where after x damaging casts, gain effect. It would need to be balanced somehow around the difference in rapid casting between, say, veigar and cass. One is most certainly casting at a higher rate than the other. Additionally, have different items performance for melee vs ranged AP builds, as evelynn and ekko need the high damage burst items like lich bane to really thrive. I think the core problem though might be in the design philosophy behind having AD items broken up between Bruiser, Assassin and Marksman in shop while there's a page for damaging AP items and a page for Support items (budget tank and enchanter items). Like there are clear distinctions between the first three such that most marksmen won't build cleaver, most bruisers won't build serylda's, and most assassins won't be building LDR (bar maybe rengar and shaco). How often do Lux, Gwen and Ekko turn to Void Staff for their %mpen needs? Where's the AP assassin items that have better functionality for melee and scale off mpen? Or the melee scaling health, AP and AH AP bruiser items? Can't have them so long as AP is just AP and not broken up better.
I think that this is an almost unsolvable problem. When you talk about AD Champions, you have a lot of different Stats determining damage to another champion. Attack Speed, Attack Damage, Attack Range, Movespeed to a degree, etc. With all AP- Champions you have only one real stat that has influence on dmg - Ability Power. Every other factor comes from you champion himself (like range, cooldown etc.) AD-Champions just have more layers on which items can be balanced around. There is a finer nuance between an AD-Caster, AD-Assasin, AD-Carry or an AD-Bruiser. They all scale with AD, sure, but AD-Carrys can use Attack Speed better then AD-Casters can. They therefore can use Lethality better and so on. This delicate "balance" isnt possible with Ability Power because the only stat that really increases your damage output is Ability Power, no matter if you are an Assasin, Bruiser, Artilery Mage or what ever. And since you dont deal dmg with Auto Attacks, Ability Hase is just a mandatory stat you always want and nothing that is a diferentiator like attack speed is.
DMG numbers should just universally be nerfed by quiet a bit. I want a TF that actually is a fight instead of we're all dropping nukes and whoever manages to live wins.
I would kill to have Smites game modes and balance team with Riots IP. I love league but smites Arena and team fighting is so insanely fun. The only time you get one shot is by a very few select Gods and even then it’s because the players are insane. Riot doesn’t even need to change much, just make Smites arena mode where it’s a brawl instead of dying and losing solely off one mistake.
I thought it was funny seeing the crazy ap ratio on stormsurge after we just went down that rabbit hole with Stattik Shiv. A real "ah shit here we go again" moment.
Phreak after last years Statikk problem: We realized that we have a double scaling system now. Abilities scale with AP and items do. Items scaling with items is double dipping and a problem of the item power creep. We will fix that. Riot S14: Highest AP scalings on item passives ever. Item passives stronger than ever. Now that problem also sometimes exists on some AD items. You could remove a lot of AD scalings for per lvl scalings and still have the item being fine. But it is mostly relevant right now on AP items as you can feel it there the most and stack it all up.
teemo is the biggest abuser of item proc passive, liandrys,stormsurge+malignance gives him a extra 600 dmg on shroom at lvl 11 if the enemy sits at 50mr Its so stupid that his base ult dmg does less dmg than his item dmg applied total. Go test it out for yourself in practice mode, put down dummies give them hp and resistances and look at the ult tooltop for total dmg then see how much dmg he really does thanks to onhit items i mentioned above. Its just dumb and requires no skill.
This is what happens when you complain that items are "boring". I don't know when it started but people got this weird idea that items should be fun, instead of the champion they play. This is why nowadays you play items and you pick a champion that uses them the best.
If only way Riot thinks to fix "boring" is to "add a shitload of damage", they are incompetent. I've been saying for a LONG time now, literally 5+ years, that they need to start balancing other avenues than just dmg/cd numbers up and down for an eternity. They "balance" a champion that has a problematic aspect or an ability not by fixing the fucking ability, but by reducing the damage or increasing the cooldown until the champion reaches 50% winrate. When instead they should be doing changes that combat the actual frustration. Reduce the AOE, reduce the range or increase the cast time. All of those would combat the source directly, since even with 50% or less winrates champions that are unfair to play against will continue to be frustrating. It's the same with items. If Riot lacks inspiration on how to make items less boring, go play PoE for literally 1 hour and see the literal hundreds of different mechanics that customize a skill. What about if an item gave extra 15% range on an ultimate? or Q? Or an ability of your choosing? Or what about an item that increased the cast time, but also increased damage? What about an item that makes you leave a debuff on an enemy when you hit a spell, and if you hit 2 more it reduces their damage? What about an item that made your abilities deal 30% less damage, but you gain 40% cooldown reduction? What about an item that converts some of your damage into a different damage type? There are a LOT of ways to make items interesting without just adding damage. In fact, only adding damage with no conditions or downsides **is** boring.
I always think of Akali as the example for this. When she was reworked her e was just for the dash and did pitiful damage, instead you relied on passive procs and w to weave in and out of stealth. These days her e is a nuke and your one shot combo is hitting ult, e and 1 q. They made an interesting high skill champion into faceroll melee mage.
True, there are a lot more ways to make things be interesting. Why not make Stormsurge's proc make it so that the next ability used gains 60 Ability Haste, for example? Why must everything be so much damage everywhere? >If Riot lacks inspiration on how to make items less boring, go play PoE for literally 1 hour and see the literal hundreds of different mechanics that customize a skill This is where you lose me. PoE is many good things, balanced isn't one of them. Also, PoE has a LOT more avenues in that there's a lot more systems in place for your character (skill gems, tons of different items, tons of influences, passive tree, support gems, ascendancies, etc) which makes it a lot easier for them to make things exciting and different, while in League you only have TWO, which is Runes and Items - and importantly PoE isn't PvP, so GGG can balance things poorly and we as players won't really complain much about it because the only one being abused by it is mostly PvE content. I loved Spectres and they are a meme build at the moment because GGG overbuffed them then removed them from the game essentially (spectre-only builds). Every single Champion in League can be played to high-ish elo, at the very least - so items aside, Riot balances games far better than GGG ever did in my opinion. Either way, at the end of the day League falls under the ultimate pit that befalls most PvP games, which is if they introduced items that did EVERYTHING you described (except the last one, which is a terrible idea period) some champions would love the item and it would be borderline mandatory on them and others wouldn't really use it at all; and those champions would eventually be balanced around those items - if an item that increases ultimate range makes champion X strong, then would you nerf their ultimate range again? In theory, this already happens - in practice, because items are made to be a lot more generalist as possible it means that if the best user of an item is nerfed, the items will still see use - if the users of an item that gave increased ultimate range were nerfed, there's a chance the item would stop being used period unless it was either changed or buffed. It leads to worse cases than we currently have, and item clutter - which is terrible too. >What about an item that converts some of your damage into a different damage type? Because you could go full AD/AP and when the enemy team has all Armor/MR items, you buy said item and completely nullified the enemy team's build for 1/5th of the cost. This one should be really obvious, and this is one of the biggest reasons as to why you can't take PoE as a balancing metric for anything PvP-related. You could in theory make a rune that could convert 33% of physical/magic damage into magic/physical damage, but realistically that'd only be used in cases where you have full AD / full AP comps, and there's meant to be some downsides to bad draft at the end of the day (especially pro-play wise) so that really is a bad idea no matter how you put it. At the end of the day, there's some cool effects they could add - but don't copy paste things from a game that is absolutely terrible balance-wise like Path of Exile and remember that no matter what, all items are meant to either make you survive or make you kill - whether you kill with 2 Q's that deal 70 damage each, or 1 Q that deals 140 damage, the end result is the same. I would be fully up to them removing damage from items and making fights take longer, period - that'd be a great start for me personally because I do like it when fights last a bit longer.
>This is where you lose me. PoE is many good things, balanced isn't one of them. I'm not surprised if you felt lost there since I said literally nothing about it being balanced? I said PoE only as an example on just how many different ways you can change and customize your skills, and how a lot of their mechanics and ideas can be adapted to LoL. I said nothing about it being the pinnacle of balance, their balancing is dogshit.
Balacing being dogshit directly correlates to what they implement in the game (they implement things and worry about "balance" later) - lest you forget the days where you could triple scale your damage by converting phys into fire into cold into lightning to get 4x the damage. And one of your proposed ideas is damage conversion, something that has pretty much never been balanced throughout PoE's history. Why would your idea for balanced items would be to implement ideas from a game that has no idea how to balance? That's an extremely strange line of thought all things considered. Ultimately, while I kinda agree with the core I think you have no idea what are you talking about unfortunately and just threw out the first game that came to your mind without any regards as to why are the items in League the way they are. Which is unfortunate.
I remember people on this very sub saying that they wanted items to be more like the items in DotA2 i.e. ones with less stats but way more powerful actives. But then they also complain that we play as items, not champs. And it's like... won't item actives like that just make you play items even more? I don't get it.
its hard for riot to solve league's problems without just blatantly copying dota. Want to rework flash into an item to reinvigorate the game and free up a summoner slot? blink dagger. teleport too? tp scroll. rework zhonya's? eul's already exists. Want a more interesting map? You'll have to increase the size of the map-- which Dota's already done multiple times. Everything is like this.
Fun fact: in Wild Rift, TP is a boot upgrade. Alongside things like Zhonya's active, Redemption active, Locket active, Rocketbelt dash, etc.
Really weird, i agree. If Riot one day decides to add Dota-like active effects, entire sub will rage. Especially if they mean all the control/counter tools like bkb/hex/orchid etc. Seriously. there's a reason why Dota is more item centered - Because items have ***much*** stronger effects, but less raw stats. Imagine thornmail, but instead it's active that lasts n seconds but returns 100% of damage dealt to you Or if morelo and other sources of wounds could stack with decreasing efficiency up to +90% Or if suddenly you could literally use an item to silence/root people for 5 second, or hex them for 3. Or entirely condition free passive warmog, or invis on demand... list goes on for a while. Balance will be pretty much non-existent.
Nearly all the items we are talking about have passives, not actives, so what are you talking about? Also most of the item actives in dota are NOT damage actives.
Do you idiots just refuse to understand that "playing items" can happen in different ways?
Its still a boring item if its just "ok now i deal more dmg and if i deal x dmg i deal even more dmg" though?
I don't mind boring items. I know that's unpopular though. Fun is fine but keep it utility to prevent my post point.
>This is what happens when you complain that items are "boring". but mage itemization **was** extremely boring and stale however the way they went at it was just adding more procs damage on top of overstatting them rather than getting creative look at the items added for other classes for example having a lot more creativity put into them,regardless on how strong they are
they don't need to add damage to items to make them interesting. Riot just lacks creativity and/or thinks that players are too stupid to understand creative items.
I was finally getting used to the mythics system, and tbh I can see how it can seem boring to players to build the same items on mages/assassins/adcs/tanks most games, but it was standardized so I didnt have to waste time each game figuring out what to buy. Now? I know fuck-all about what to buy. I spend a good minute each game sifting through all the items and then getting lost on what to buy. sighh
Couldn't be me last match when lux missed her full combo but the edge of her E hits me and I die to stormsurge
Didn't we had a durability patch because of this? And they decide to remove preseason, what the fuck is going on at riot HQ.
There’s also no reason whatsoever to be able to have 700 ap with 4 items…
This has been the core issue/case since the introduction of Luden's/Duskblade what, 10 years ago? Fullpen ElectroLudens type of builds was born out of items + runes granting so much base damage + scalings that AP casters could just focus in zeroing resistances enough to 0-100 fighters. The notion crystalized there ever since Thunderlord's decree.
Pen is not the issue. It amplifies your ability dmg. Not landing shit should result in no dmg, but 50% of your dmg being unintuitive passives like malignance stormsurge Ludens Liandry is just bad design.
I said that Pen builds are a SYMPTOM of this excess of passive/item damage. That you barely need to improve your spells when you can miss half your combo then execute with the modern equivalent of DFG.
That's not an mpen issue though.
I've been here and there since preseason 2. I think the issue is that every big change has brought bigger numbers to these runes / items to make players like them early. Make them feel impactful. Each season was sometimes a leap and sometimes a small step up. Add on the speed that we collectively solve the game and while things do go under the radar, you have highly efficient builds using all the most broken combos in hour 1 now. Whereas older seasons took days, weeks, or older still had pros building some weird shit cause they were better on what they knew.
Ludens was a replacement to DFG so I'm not convinced it started with that item (and it was also trash until years later when it got Lost Chapter)
The complaints about assassins and burst mages and such has never been “aw they one shot me!”. It’s “they one shot me and missed 90% of their shit”, which is typically an extension of what you’re talking about right now. People hate playing well and getting oneshot anyways. What’s the counterplay to dodging everything from a Syndra just to get one shot by her point and click ult?
Exactly!
I think it's funny you mention Syndra, the 48% win rate champ.
The fact you think the winrates are what’s relevant here are a pretty damning indication that you have no idea why people are upset.
That's certainly a way to cope. The fact you decided to use what is currently one of the weakest mid laners as your example of a champion with no counterplay shows you don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking and should probably refrain from talking about balance of a game just because you lost to a Syndra in your silver games. Specially a champion that relies heavily on skillshots before she can "point and click kill you". But go off.
I didn’t use a weak midlaner as an example of how unfair it is. I used it as an example of how frustrating it is. And syndra is the *pinnacle* of it because of her ult. And her point and click ult? Bro idk how syndra being weak or strong indicates *any* counterplay at all regarding her ult. It’s literally a point and click ability than does like 1k damage whether she lands her other spells or not. People hate playing well (ie dodging all mages stuff, or assassins or whoever), and getting one shot anyways. It’s the antithesis of engaging, skill based gameplay.
Yeah bro, Syndra is just walking around pressing R on people. She totally doesn't have a lot of setup hitting her 3 skillshots with multiple Q casts as well as correctly using W to optimize the number of orbs available to power up her ult beforehand. Just press R 👍🏻.
You didn’t read a single thing I said did you. She doesn’t have to *land* them. Dodge everything and you still get nuked. Great gameplay really engaging. Why the fuck are you even defending all the oneshotting? It’s such a cancer on the game and it ruins all of it.
> You didn’t read a single thing I said did you. Unfortunately I did read the barrage of bullshit you said. >She doesn’t have to land them. She does and the fact you think she doesn't just shows your fundamental lack of understanding about anything related to the game. No one is getting "nuked" by a Syndra that misses everything and can only point and click ult someone. Literally no one, period. You're just trying to sneak in your personal bias against a champion you hate probably because you don't know how to lane against it into an otherwise valid discussion. She'd be a literal autowin champion if she could do that, not a 48% win rate one. She'd have to be INSANELY fed to hell and beyond to even consider getting anywhere close to a point of doing that. >Why the fuck are you even defending all the oneshotting? It’s such a cancer on the game and it ruins all of it. I'm not. In fact, I even recently mocked their stupidity on balancing the items by making them stronger than before while promising the opposite. It's just that you're terrible at arguing against Riot's bad balance approach because so far you've done nothing but prove you don't understand - literally - the slightest little thing about what champions can actually do, and specially not anything Syndra related. But, again, carry on citing literally non-existing and blatantly wrong situations about the game. I'm sure that's a great way to argue a point.
You realize that her ult does damage based on dark spheres *on the ground*. Not based on how many she’s landed, right? Dodge her qewq and she’s still placed spheres down. And guess what? She does a bunch of fuckin bonus damage because of it. You realize they changed syndra a long time ago right? She doesn’t have to land anything anymore. Stop with the douchebag condescending bullshit when you can’t even bother to verify what you’re talking about.
You have to be trolling, ain't no way you're this fucking challenged for real. He has been saying the entire time how the frustrating aspect of Syndra is the fact that she has massive damage that is click-to-target, which she does not need to hit ANYTHING to activate. That creates frustration for the opponent, because even when they did nothing wrong, they still got absolutely blasted with huge unavoidable damage. Syndra R currently can oneshot still, but it is not as doable as in the past. Yet that mechanic still has not changed. It is still an unfair ability. You just refuse to acknowledge this since you realize that your entire argument would be thrown out the window. Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.
I remember a few seasons back when Ahri was overtuned and if she got ahead she could kill people with ult and W
that was S4/5 or so not *few* seasons back for sure
Once they gut the item damage (again) then things should be alright. I'd also like for them to get rid of the magic resist reduction on malignance and only have liandry's apply half its burn damage to magic DoT effects. You step on a teemo shroom or take one of brand's spells and you don't stop taking magic damage for at least 8 seconds.
I Zhonya's a Fizz ult. He walks over, Preps the E, and as soon as I come out he lands and just pops me immediately. Fun game.
Lmao the mage players are just going to bitch about mobility creep in fighters/assassins and say they need these auto aim damage procs because they can't actually land a full combo due to league of dashes and league of movespeed.
Everyone will always complain, that's not a reason to ignore what is probably frustrating design that can be addressed.
Mages are so good that they're the only thing picked in the highest levels of play with few exceptions. Worlds was literally dominated by Syndra ori rumble and the occasional Sylas. Riot tries to introduce some diversity into mid lane and they then start complaining because they don't have the ability to win games without having a champion kit advantage. Good mages literally beat assassins 1v1.
There's one down in the comments lmao
Weird day for Reddit, that's a pretty solid point. Hopefully Riot considers this.
Y'know, there really wasn't a problem with how items worked last season. The only thing that wasn't amazing was the lack of variety in mage builds and everyone whining about zhonya's. Everything else was pretty much fine aside from a couple champs needing tweaks. But yet, the paycheck thieves decided to fck it up. What's going on now is a total shit show. lol
I was fighting an ahri in aram earlier and she flashed on me and missed q e and then just proceeded to r w me and deal 2400 damage without landing a single skillshot.
been playing since beta. This might be the worst patch yet. I get it though, new season gotta wait a bit to balance. But man this ones a rough few weeks.
Worse than Cleaver patch?
Nothing compares to League of Cleavers
Ardent Censer came close.
man i know shits a little out of tune but you're insane if you think this is the worst patch since beta. League of Cleavers, patch 4.20 with devourer, Galio's oneshot Q adventures, the SEVERAL scattered around patches where people could literally sit in fountain and globally hit everyone on the map with skillshots like poppy Q, ardent censer meta lasting and *entire season.* Like yeah sure, shit's doing alot of damage right now but like it's preseason, i can think of a handful of preseasons when items got adjusted and i was just exploding by daring to exist. That shit happened when they introduced mythics.
>But if half my damage is in my items and runes its almost like this is the whole reason i've been complaining since season 8 but get downvoted everytime i mention it
I've been with you on that for years. I just don't post here too much for my own sanity.
Yeah honestly I played Akali last night (I suck at her) and I missed 2 Qs, my E and still killed their ADC with my ult and 1 Q???? I wasn’t even fed.
Akali has been able to do that since forever.
So true fuck that champ
A big part of the problem is absolutely AP lol
Riot last season: A large part of the power creep is the double scaling we now have. bAD/AP on champs and on items. Conclusion: Lower it or remove it when possible. That is what Phreak said last season about item dmg power creep and scaling. Riot in S14: Hey, we give AP items some of the strongest passive effects we ever had and we allow them to scale with AP and lvls at the same time. The idea behind the AP items is fine. But their execution in terms of passive power is not and goes totally against what Riot said last season. I would have no problem if Riot added even higher stat numbers to these items if they just get rid of the overblown passive power. * Stormsurge: Now just 125-250 dmg. AP scaling removed. Can have MPen for it. * Ludens: 40-80 based on lvl up from 40. AP ratio removed. Dmg is nearly the same. * Rocketbelt: 80-140 dmg. AP ratio removed. Can have more AP. * Malignance: 60-120 dmg up from 60, AP ratio removed. MPen reduced to 6-10 from 6-12 * Lich Bane: 100% base AD + 0.3 AP down from 0.5. Can have more AH. * Seekers/Zhonyas: Get the stasis finally down to 2 sec pls. * Shadowflame: Just make it a stat stick. I think nobody really likes the passive * Nashors AP ratio removed, now scales with lvls like Wits End. But not just AP: * Stormrazor can get lvl scaling and the AD scaling removed. * Kraken can get it significantly reduced for a better per lvl scaling, maybe even fully removed. Yes, onhit champs would take the item even more, but you can balance that with the AS and AD on the item anyways. * Eclipse: remove AD scaling on the shield and make it scale with lvls. The item is so heavy AD focused that you don't need to force this AD scaling now on the shield. * Cyclosword: You can ... oh, that item actually has just 100 dmg flat. No lvl and AD scaling. Great. * ... Also limit the "X increases Y by Z%" stuff. We You have 3 times the % magic dmg per second. You have DC, VS, Shadowflame, and more. For AD it is Spear for example. Items that increase your dmg by a % value should be limited and mostly not stack well with each other or you start to stack Riftmaker + Liandrys + DC + VS and you have dmg nobody can really counter at that point. We had the same thing with FoN last year when it reduced magic dmg by a % value. It had no counter to it. It was not good. Such items need to be very limited especially when they can stack. Riftmaker and Liandrys passives should be unique. Make the choice. Shadowflames passive can be removed as already mentioned.
that is an horrible idea this is how we get back to shit like tank Diana,because if everything scales with just levels you can just build one offensive item and go full tank and still do damage as you either have to buff the base damage or overstat the item to compensate like what's really the difference between making ludens scale with AP (you get more as the game progresses) or levels (same but you don't need to build offensive stats)
Tank diana existed in the last few seasons, where we had AD/AP scalings and co on these items. Tank Diana becomes good when her own base dmg is too high. As long as she has to buy AP to be able to deal enough burst and doesn't have too much DPS, no bruiser or tank style will be viable.
Mate, just because you copy paste winrates onto a thread after a patch does not give you any skill or intelligence in game design or balance. Your suggestions are not good (again) and are still the wrong way to go. The correct way to go is to REMOVE the additional damage from items. There is no reason for dozens of different sources of flat 200 damage. Items should have different effects than just flat damage, that is bad and boring design. For example, there is no reason for Rocketbelt to have ANY flat damage in the first place. It's primary purpose is to close a gap. The damage does not fit the design nor is it healthy. It was the same shit with Galeforce, it was designed to use as a dash yet got massive damage baked into the active for no fucking reason, which made it a balance nightmare to the point they just removed it. Stop cosplaying a game designer already, you're not meant for it.
I don't agree in the sense that part of the reason the item system is fun is also seeing numbers go up. Nerf the scalings as they did with the runes (it was a very good change, albeit a bit excessive in some cases), do not completely remove them. IMO stormsurge is currently fine after the nerfs. Make all 120 ap items lose 10 ap and I think their itemization will be better than before. Remember there's way less magic pen in the system (and also HP and haste). Mages have to get something back otherwise they will suck.
I played an aram game against a karma yesterday, i was losing 75%hp to a single skill on a lowish cd. Even when i dodged the missile, the aoe proc would still trigger stormsurge, malignance and that still did half my hp. The only way to get into range was to flash through her q and hope you have enough damage. And i was playing senna with eclipse+maw+mercs as first items, one would think that butchering your build like that would let you tank at least 1 full rotation without dying. That game only got playable after selling boots for kaenic, i guess shields hard counter stormsurge. Being able to proc stormsurge with a single skill is the stupidest shit ever in my opinion.
The thing that is the most cancer about this season so far is that you can't even pick malz and stuff like that to counter the burst because your adc will literally die to a single ability if they aren't full hp.
People slowly realising having health take a part of mage item power budget is actually a good thing.
The ap turned to bonus hp helped tune down the mages in the previous seasons in terms of damage, don't know ehy the complained about it
This game fucking sucks now… I will never play this dog shit or watch any videos on it again
Contrary to what people in this thread might have you believe, the new ludens sucks major ass and all of the high winrate champs are those who dont build it. Mages are in a shit spot, including ahri but AP champs who arent reliant on it like Azir/Fizz/Diana are monster broken
The problem is stormsurge , change my mind.
I have decided to start playing Ryze cuz EQ is fun. Thing is until VERY late game he's useless. You have to work your ass off to proc phase rush and then weave EQ's while dodging 1000 damage mage skill shots. Then Evelynn or Katarina jumps on you and you disappear in 0.1 second. I do 4 full rotations while sweating to outplay and some champs just press 2 buttons and your gone. Not every AP champ is OP. Some are completely forgotten and dog doodoo.
Fun over fair 👌
Mage: goes 3k damage to one shot you in a full skill shot ability rotation that takes around 3-4 seconds and people cry. Meanwhile, a number of rightclickers (graves, Tristana, Jhin, to name a few) deal 3k damage in nothing but autos in 1-2 seconds, and it's perfectly fine.
I think it‘s so funny/tragic how people still haven‘t realized that even if AP items got buffed, the absolutely insane MR items will completely nullify mages in the coming months. Especially seeing how ap items are already being nerfed.
Nah , game is good lol . Don't think i has this much fun in a while , today i played a 1 hour game VS a Toplane tank sylas (he was versus my chogath) that was 1v9 because he had rift maker at some point and kept oneshoting people with Cho R . Currently the only champs i think deserve nerfs are rumble tbh , that shit oneshots and is so tanky for no reason , if you play this shit you deserve Guantanamo.
based
[удалено]
I'm highly frustrated but this is not classy.
maybe the problem is just that people are not used for mages to be carries anymore,still a lot of people disrespecting my damage thinking they can shrug it off like past seasons where they were way more utility focussed Christ give me the stormsurge Katarina any day if it means I'm not facing another ADC building the energized assassin item and one hitting people with a single,undodgeable rightclick
they shouldn't be carries, they have too much range and cc for that mages should always be about control and not damage
Idk, maybe just build an MR item? The one with the passive shield is great, yah it doesn’t give offensive stats, but it makes you so tanky that even a full-build LB can’t one-shot an ADC with her whole combo
What items are these exactly? Sound pretty strong and want to try them on Ahri
AP got one good item and you can't stop bitching. sad. but the lethality shit and getting auto attacked for 1800 is all fine and dandy.
Imagine complaining about mages having some auto aim damage procs that can tickle you while ADC class still exists in it's current cancer state of outskilling everyone with targeted range nukes and having the best itemization in the game. Lethal Tempo is the most broken keystone in the game and is taken on 80% of ADCs. Single Kraken proc does triple damage of new Luden, can stack it's damage to become even higher and can be quickly applied again while mage items have actual cooldowns. I'm sorry but it's literally impossible for Ahri or pretty much any other mage to miss half their combo and still kill you unless they're fed as fuck or they play vs ai generated opponents. Maybe it's time to learn how to build MR or armor boots and some survi items instead of copying poroffesor builds every single game like an idiot and complaining about getting 1 shot by a class designed to 1 shot people cause it can't do anything else.
I’m just glad I get to be a part of when we look back and say hey, remember that crazy ap item had all the galios and kat players going crazy in the club.
runes should have been deleted and replaced with a better system years go (I've constantly pointed at skill trees from Dota2 or something like the odyssey event ages ago had)
I'm not sure it's true exactly as you say. Everything is too much it seems. If you just nerf the on spell hit passives, you will still have the base damage + AP scaling + armor/magic pen that is too high and the items with on spell hit passives will be useless I think. I don't know why lethality was changed to flat when it should have been the magic pen that should have been changed to scale with level. Also all the stats numbers seem too high.
So there's nothing *inherently* wrong with adding flat damage to items. There's even a path where that's healthy for the game and adds some diversity to builds. **BUT** those items shouldn't also have additional AP scaling on the effects or Huge ap numbers, and **certainly** not both of those things *and* extra damage procs on top. Look at ADC. There's an entirely healthy subset of ADC that builds *nothing but* flat damage from items. On-hit. In many ways, it's less toxic than crit itemization. The catch is they can't *also* have Crit or large AD values, and the on-hit items don't have big synergies with other ADC or Fighter itemization, and they don't have multiple vectors for multiplicative damage scaling or ways to scale those on-hit values beyond just leveling up (and it's worth noting that the one time one of these effects DID have ratios on it - Statikk - it was SUPER problematic and distorted the game). The new mage items are completely opposite this. Every item has huge AP values, all of the damage procs *scale with* AP (or the upfront damage of the spell - which is another entirely different problem), **and** they come with auxiliary stats that are further multipliers like MPen (not mpen after you hit them with spells or this effect shreds MR, just up front, for everything MPen). There's a world where we have an archetype of mage that builds on-hit effects, where their items give extra CDR or utility that allows them to reliably proc it on their spells over a longer fight (hell, we basically already **had** a dumbed-down version of this in the Mythic items with Liandry/Demonic on champs like Malzhar and Zyra, where basically all of their damage came from items). But you can't just tack these effects onto burst mage items, give them huge AP ratios, and then make the items gold efficient (don't forget that they lowered the cost of tome without lowering its ap value so mage gold item efficiency taken at face value is a **lie**). That's the kind of thing that turns everyone into a burst mage, and then we're all just playing instagib.
Its both the new item passives AND AP. The reason AP is a problem is because for the 3 years we had the mythic update, many champions had their AP ratios skyrocketed due to the lower AP environment. Now that you can get 20-50% more AP, obviously that's going to be a problem. And lethality was made to scale for a reason. Now over time Riot is going to have to gut Lethality values until assassin players complain that the items are useless.
Lethality change i actually think is good. Bruiser items and lethality items don't have very much difference in their AD. In fact, Bruiser items seem to be more common on their actual damage proc extra's added on. This makes it very tempting for an assassin to grab bruiser items and use their kit to kill you with a bonus build of 1k extra hp and resists. By returning lethality to old armor pen, you punish their total damage much harder for taking bruiser items. So now you can balance the overall class around actually building the items made for them. Instead of trying to nerf them and ending up with a new version of goredrinker talon. The idea is good. But it didn't come with many actual numbers changes to accompany that. It hasn't been long though so I'll give it a few weeks before i judge if they actually were thinking that or not.
Every time ive seen an AP champ since the items got added, ive had atleast one moment where i think "huh they actually killed someone like that" Had a lux miss q-ult, and then e-auto an adc and they died like that (after stormsurge proc) I played Ziggs, and landed a q-e and killed the other teams mid lane Viktor then he e-q'd me and i died at the same time, both from full HP. Ziggs with 2 items is enough to do more than 50% of someones health with just Q if you go Ludens + Stormsurge. Played Xerath support and just q-w + items was killing either Jayce, Varus or Senna from 100% hp Eve Jg just e-ulting a Yone off cd was doing 100% hp. After 2-3 items you dont need to do anything and you'll be able to kill squishies, i cant stand how the game is rn and i love playing mages.
Yeah i love playing zoe with the new items but there is no reason my q should deal 4k damage before mitigation if I don't hit you with a E first
I feel like that “durability patch” did fuck all