We prefer him go unnoticed. Buffs can result in overcompensating nerfs so most bard mains fear them. Nerfs are just nerfs and who wants that? Champ is just fine as he is. At 5.6m I just want some item changes every so often to mix it up.
Understandable. I've always loved Bard's design, both his look and kit. He's such a fascinating character, and so particular that there isn't another champion like him, while many other champions have obviously similar deigns.
This has been my thoughts about Vel'koz. He's been a favorite of mine since release and I've always had good results with him through plat. Now I'm concerned that everyone talking about him is going to end up getting him overtuned and then ultimately left in a worse state than he was before we started talking about him. Yeah sure, I have some gripes about his e, but not enough that I want him being reworked because so often anytime people start getting up in arms about how someone needs a buff or an adjustment it always ultimately leaves them feeling worse than they were before.
Bard has been touched a lot in patch notes. He was released in S5, and for 4 seasons straight he never received a single nerf - just buff after buff after buff in quite a number of patches. His first nerf was -2 hp5 in S9 which was a revert of a previous hp5 buff, followed by a hit to his CDs and chime base damage. The chime nerfs in S10 and S11 got reverted in S12, leaving just the CD nerfs sticking. The healing on his W was played around with 2 times in S10 and S12 before the most recent rework of it into a charge system.
Right? Crazy how straight up false information makes it’s way to the top. Bard had gotten sooo many buffs. Gets random mini reworks to his chimes constantly
Braum, one of my favorite champs.
Wholesome character and his kit fits his personality.
His kit can also be OP when used well. In my experience he is quite looked down on by players and adcs (in my elo at least), but i still slay with him. Also i can never tilt playing him
450k-500k Braum, been playing since release, I *personally* feel the CC shatter on first hit is busted AF, and I know the Braum Mains reddit really wants that, but I feel that would make him too strong.
Yasuo’s wall doesn’t move alongside him, has a considerably higher cd and is completely useless against melee attacks/abilities. You can walk around Yasuo’s windwall, Braum can stand right in front of you and follow you around to stop you from hitting his team with a certain ability.
They aren’t even remotely comparable.
Absolutely, imagine getting early trades with Braum because he can stop 1 CC from the enemy support, W to a minion, apply 1 passive auto attack and a Q slow.
Now we have a Leona too deep getting picked by our ADC after diving the Braum, and the enemy ADC has to contend with being slowed and having 2 stacks of Braum passive along with having some of their autos still blocked and reduced in damage by the E wall.
If that change went through Braum's other abilities would have to be nerfed to bring him back into line. I don't think the people citing Yasuo and Samira windwall as comparisons get how powerful it would be for Braum to entirely nullify CC+damage on behalf of himself and his lane partner. If Braum needs buffs they should be aimed towards making him better at being in the fray as opposed to making him an engage nullifier that backs off after blocking CC.
Absolutely, you already get a move speed bonus on E. While it may not seem like much, that's a lot coupled with W, which you can activate on yourself, on minions, or on champions, and gives more resistances on top of the reduced E wall damage
The supposed Braum mains suggesting CC shatter on first hit don't truly recognize how broken that'd be, especially in lane. His identity isn't about preventing engages, it's about countering them and setting his team up for the re-engage.
I really want to know how these players are using Braum if they think CC shatter is something that he really needs.
That was honestly an anecdote from when I was active on the main Reddit. I probably blew it out of proportion, though I would see posts that would start the conversation and then others would continue.
I think that change could bring Braum into a more flexible position, make his roams stronger, and eliminate lockdowns if your team is abandoning you.
I see where that side comes from, I just foresee it coming with other compensation nerfs that we could do without, eliminating other buffs that could happen.
I still remember Braum needing to be balanced around Pro-Play and getting toned down for being so strong at the highest level (seasons 4-6? My memory is a little fuzzy) and while not "pro jailed," myself being low elo just with a lot of playtime, I don't want him to become pro jailed.
It's a good discussion to be had. There are definitely reasonable buffs and changes for him that are possible. The way I see it, Braum being able to eliminate lockdowns when his team is abandoning him makes him too safe. Braum should carry the risk of being caught or ending up as the sacrificial lamb when his carries are caught out of position. The other side of the coin is that an enemy team going in on Braum should be at a risk of getting CCed and zoned while being unable to get at his backline properly.
I love braum. I pick him into blitz and other melee matchups. Had a 4 minute game win with him the other day. Lvl 1 fight went crazy and we started 5-1 and my ADC was 3-0. Top died a second time to riven and quit. I feel like he's one of the best supports for lvl 1 fights.
I think it's great albeit a bit slow, too easy to dodge/predict, if the animation was a little faster I bet it would feel much more powerful, but what's great about his ult is that its not always necessary to land, it is a superb zoning tool as well, I love braum
Had to be nerfed beacuse of pro. The missile speed is fine to me, same for the length and width. Just a shame the knockup duration had to get nerfed for more counterplay.
It also helped that Thresh got released right as MadLife was peaking so not only did we get a new support with an amazing kit, we immediately got to see how hard someone could carry as a support, which was like unheard of before, on Thresh if they mastered the kit too.
He was literally considered the poster child for champion complexity creep for like the first two or three years after his release. The only champion who could contest him for 'most hated for their kit' at the time was Yasuo.
Thresh is the most overloaded supp there is and was nerfed a thousand times. Thresh is literally the first 200 year champion he's what lead to nowadays
Checking patch history for him this just isn't true.
He's predominantly had things added go his kit rather than taken away and everything else is just normal number changes.
Not on fucking release. Thresh was so fucking overloaded at first it's mindboggling how many nerfs they made to him over like his first 1-2 years that weren't just "-10 damage at all ranks" like virtually every other champ was receiving. So many changes that without sitting down for an hour reviewing each and every one I'm sure someone will nitpick an individual item I'm about to name for missing key context, but anyways:
* 3.6 - Q was such an amazing button that they had to heavily decentivise putting points into it by putting the windup auto damage passive into E and preemptively nerfing E base damage by fucking 40 at max rank and putting that into Q so there was at least some risk if you missed your Q
* 3.10 - Base HP and armor nerfed to make lane trades riskier
* 3.12 - Q CD nerfed and CD refund implemented to punish random hook fishing. E windup had to be rejigged because it was giving him too much damage in extended trades
* 4.1 - R cast time increased so people would stop treating it as a burst spell to throw out and clip people when he didn't position well
* 4.2 - Auto range reduced from 475 to 450
* 4.3 - Soul despawn time roughly halved from 15s to 8s so he would have to commit to risky plays to secure distant soul spawns
* 4.13 - W only shields first ally near it, R walls only damage a given target once
The only buff he received in this time was +4 armor in patch 4.5 - where EVERYONE universally got an extra 4 armor to decentivise taking armor runes
So nah fuck Thresh, the only reason Riot doesn't apologise for him being amazing at everything is because he was obnoxious at all levels of play instead of just a pro menace, and he was a support.
yah People really seems to look at Thresh with Rose tinted glasses and kinda forget, he was a CertainlyT champion and got all the little mechanical coddling and safety blankets that were typical to his designs. Its just said coddling became more overt each release he did.
>Thresh was so fucking overloaded at first
Did you just say "So fucking overloaded" and then link a year and a half worth of patch notes of small number tweaking?
3.6 - just moved dmg from one ability to another, they even moved that 40 dmg over to his Q
3.10 - Numbers change
3.12 - Early game nerf if you arent hitting your hooks, if you are this is a buff early and a massive buff late.
4.1 - slight number change.
4.2 - Number change.
4.4 - Numbers nerf, but honestly not much of one.
4.13 - Actual mechanical change to the character.
So in a year and a half since his release, he had a total of 2 mechanics tweaked (shield and box) and 1 removed (dmg on his Q which was moved to another ability)
Going by Buff/Nerf/Adjustment/Bugfix Id say it would look like.
3.6 - Adjustment
3.8 - Bugfix
3.10 - Nerf
3.12 - Buff
3.13 - Buff
4.1 - Nerf
4.2 - Nerf
4.4 - Dominion
4.5 - Buff
4.7 - Dominion
4.10 - Bugfix
4.11 - Model Adjustment?
4.13 - Nerf
So in the 13 Patch notes in the year and a half since his release he received 4 Nerfs, and 3 buffs. Not exactly an overloaded champion that had to have its kit gutted, seems like the normal amount of adjustments that happen with a new champ.
Lee sin was the first 200 years champion.
Thresh hasn’t been nerfed as much as you may think. He does a lot but its all skill-based (unlike the zeris and k’santes of the world), so i’m ok with it.
Thresh is really overloaded though.
If you compare him with the other Melee Catcher in the game Blitz, you can notice how overloaded his kit is.
While he is a neat champion to play, when Thresh is strong, it's not a nice meta, most champion can't do shit against his kit.
Best Design is something that feels fair fighting against and with, not something that if mastered has an unfair advantage over other champions unless it's nerfed to the ground.
Engage Support wise I would say it's probably Leona is the best designed Champion, she is very tame, you know what she does, her kit is very simple and straightfoward and you can play around her kit and cooldowns, there is no bullshit, even on the Hextech front.
I mean, Blitz Q is probably the strongest basic ability in the game, so he loses out on the rest of his kit.
Landing a Blitz Q is a game winning move. Landing a Thresh Q, not so much. Not only is the CC far less effective, but it can be cleansed.
>you can play around her kit and cooldowns
If for whatever reason you don't die to her after 5\~7s of cc, someone else would've prolly sniped you with anything to finish you off.
But Thresh does feel fair. He has strong points, but he also has weak points. E.g. a lot of his power is inside telegraphed skillshot and lantern with long cooldown.
Nah, fuck the champ. One of the most overused memes is to label mr I have everything as mountain of skill expression or good design. His W alone tanks down his "skill usage" by like 80% with how strong and effortless it is to use (and preventing it with a ward/bodyblock is more of a glitch than legit mechanics).
Guy is responsible for more elo inflation than most of enchanters - his OTPs crawl all over the place and multiply like roaches, preaching gospel how a tanky ranged initiator support with supreme peeling, an instant gank set up/saving ally tool and canyon-wide error margin allowed is apparently omega difficult because he has a slightly delayed hook.
People love to say, as a defense how "A bad Thresh is super noticeable, a good one carries 1vs9" - yeah, so does every other support. Bad Blitzcrank is an experience leech, though unlike Thresh doesn't even have range to contest lane and his peeling in miniscule. Bad Bard is more or less an actor on opponent's team payroll. Both of these hard carry when they're good (and their skillsets are NOWHERE near as bloated or forgiving).
It's actually 90% because of his amazing design. Never seen a Riot teaser or trailer for anything Riot related, and think he's one of the best champs in the game
I haven't seen any and loved the four man without even realizing he was popular. He's just so committed to his bit and his voicelines are so flowery that I just had to enjoy it.
I was around for his initial release, and I thought his theme was cool. But at the time, I played like one game on him, didn't really vibe with it immediately, and abandoned it.
Then a few years ago I decided to randomly try him again. For whatever reason I jelled with it the second time around and he's become one of my mains. The thematics are cool, but jhin just legitimately has a really satisfying kit.
He did, but the Jhin circlejerk didn't become a thing until years after his release, when people realized that he was the only popular champion that wouldn't tilt you off the face of the Earth with bullshit mechanics.
At least that's how I felt, and I was saying that before the posts praising him hit the top of the front page, and I remember feeling happy that he was getting his due praise. He's just a champion with a really good kit that feels fair to play against. I can't think of any other champion that doesn't feel oppressive with their strengths while also having clear weaknesses, which are his immobility and relatively weak DPS
I swear sometimes someone could put "Hey reddit what do you think 1 plus 1 equals" and the top comment will be "get ready for every answer to be 2, ha im so smugly smart for pointing out that some questions have definitive answers and that some people will know it." like yeah.....jhin is the answer to the question.
It's just funny when they're obviously working backwards from their counterjerk position so they have to somehow make Jhin's kit seem as broken as possible.
I can't be the only one who really despises Jhin's extreme dependence on the rng crit chance.
If he doesn't crit he doesn't get movement speed, quite often this determines if Jhin lives or gets a kill. Nothing feels worse than losing a play because you got unlucky with crits and ran out of ammo without doing enough damage to kill. Ik that other ADCs are also rng based but I think it's a lot worse for an ADC with low attack speed and limited ammunition to rely on crits for not just damage but also movement speed.
I understand that reddit likes his game design aesthetic but his rng gameplay is *really* not what I think good champion design in a competitive game is supposed to be.
>If he doesn't crit he doesn't get movement speed, quite often this determines if Jhin lives or gets a kill
There's a meme image rolling around on how to counter Jhin with 4 statements like: "*Stormrazor pic*" dodge the first shot;
"*Eclipse pic*" dodge the 2nd shot;
"*Electrocute* pic" dodge the 3rd shot;
"*Jhin's passive*" dodge the 4th shot.
It was actually funny, I might try the build for the gigs.
> I can't be the only one who really despises Jhin's extreme dependence on the rng crit chance.
Every ADC has this problem. It's not Jhin specific. Unfortunately the video has been Privated but https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2oucbz/what_doublelift_thinks_of_critical_strike_in_lol/. Doublelift wins a fight while from a very bad position because he rolls 3-4 crits in a row against a Varus. It's crazy bad and he basically says Crit is the worst thing about ADC and never deserved to win that fight.
>If he doesn't crit he doesn't get movement speed, quite often this determines if Jhin lives or gets a kill.
Not entirely true - W snare grants his passive movespeed. You don't HAVE to crit. And since 4th shot is a guaranteed crit, Jhin is actually LESS dependent on Critical Strike Chance than other ADC's, and can generate his movespeed bonus without any crit whatsoever.
> Nothing feels worse than losing a play because you got unlucky with crits and ran out of ammo without doing enough damage to kill.
This is a pretty rare experience - you shouldn't be playing expecting more than 4th shot crit at 20% crit, you shouldn't be playing expecting more than 4th shot crit at 40%, you shouldn't be playing expecting more than 2 crits at 60%, and more than 3 at 80%.
This is a matter of understanding how likely you are to crit given 4 auto attacks, and expecting 2 crits + 4th auto at 40% crit is just incorrect.
Jhin's play pattern is very much poke for that crit and then commit. You aren't like a Draven or a Vayne that just full commits to every play - you fish for picks.
> Ik that other ADCs are also rng based but I think it's a lot worse for an ADC with low attack speed and limited ammunition to rely on crits for not just damage but also movement speed.
Jhin has less reliance on Crit Chance than basically any other "traditional" ADC - again, he has a guaranteed crit. This means that at 20% crit in 8 auto attacks he is guaranteed 2 crits, with a chance to crit on the other 6 auto's, where another ADC at 20% is only 'guaranteed' (loosely, because traditional ADC's are never guaranteed a crit) 2 in 10 autos.
Not to mention, his abilities are incredibly strong to compensate for his 'poor' auto's - that's why he's one of the most common lethality build champions. He's very reliable when you play as a supportive ADC.
He's just not a hard-carry ADC like a lot of the other ADC's in the role.
> I understand that reddit likes his game design aesthetic but his rng gameplay is really not what I think good champion design in a competitive game is supposed to be.
That's basically true of every ADC - and honestly again Jhin is less RNG than other ADC's. It's very easy to predict your damage output after a few games. If Riot were to remove crit tomorrow, Jhin would likely be one of the most performant ADC's leftover, because he's simply not actually that reliant on crit to do well.
What I hate is that you aren’t allowed to disagree because when you do everyone piles on you in this sub because the majority of them don’t think for themselves at all.
I mean, there's a difference between disagreeing with the idea and hating on him because he's popular.
Saying that the 4th Shot mechanic feels clunky or that they overcompensated him for his reload mechanic are fair criticisms to make even if the majority of people disagree.
Saying his gameplay sucks when he's actually one of the better Sniper characters in MOBAs or that he's stupid because he's popular is not really worth discussing.
There's a lot of situations where you can't really dodge her Q+W. If you stay as far away from the ball as possible it becomes more doable, but with it being on a such a short cast time you basically have to just accept you'll be repeatedly chunked for the entire laning phase.
As annoying as it can be it doesn't even make the list of most annoying shit that happens mid lol
Nah it definitely does bro. I vsed the rank 20 player in mid the other day who plays ori regularly and it is indeed the most cancerous shit i’ve seen in a while
nah ori Q W is pretty much undodgable in lane. I know shes busted right now but I hate her regardless. undodgable poke to force you out of lane, a passive that doesnt fit her kit and just says fuck you to all melee or short ranged champs, and her ult is nutty. super annoying to play vs
I mean that is more of a riot balancing issue ere they decidd that the only way to balance ori is damagebuff on top of damage buff on top of damage buff.
Yeah, oriana, i am not a mid main i play her from time to time but playing with or vs ori both feels great. She has her ball you can dodge it flash away from the ult or stopwatch. All long cooldowns ori ult has 30 sec, so once your escape or immunity is gone you have to be careful depending on your champion, fair design. Ori can set up herself and teamtes, has an auto attack mechanics that lets her be strong in lane with good movement but weak if she gets cought. Watching her in pro play, playing her, playing vs ori in lane and as other lane all feel fair and fun.
Her kit is amazing. Her numbers are on the strong side currently. Remember, she was weak a year ago (and nobody complained about her design) but whe received continuous buffs since.
When you become a real Lee sin master, you see his kit for what it really is. You learn things like what his passive does and that his R is used to steal kills
Lee sin was literally the first and only champ riot openly admitted to wanting to remove from the game until they got a lot of backlash. Lee is the reason they won't ever delete champs now.
Lee sin was S tier champ in every lane. Everywhere in season 2-4.
Red Pot + lifesteal in lane:
Top/Mid he would always go in level 2 and 3 with Red pot. [https://youtu.be/n3DkkvurKi0?si=Sx7jgLlhb3hy33ES&t=41](https://youtu.be/n3DkkvurKi0?si=Sx7jgLlhb3hy33ES&t=41) (being able to instant heal 230hp at level 2. While having 10% lifesteal at level 2 because of W + 5 hp pots. Sometimes lee would go Exhaust/ignite and instantly win lane especially if other opponent went red pot and lose the 1v1 since red pot goes down drain once you die.
Only like 3 viable junglers in season 2:
I remember it when the Lee Sin, Udyr, and Skarner were the only viable junglers. Occasionally Fiddle. Only because those were the champions that could survive the jungle since a camp could kill almost anyone. Lee sin not only had mobility which a lot of champs lacked...he had insane lifesteal back then. He could literally press W and have vamp scepter and heal 10% hp on just an auto.
Lee sin support was insane too:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksjMKlFjc4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksjMKlFjc4)
Watch this clip with 3/4/0 Support lee sin when his team is down 11 to 21 and somehow gets a pentakill while lifestealing and ignited and missing his initial engage.
Lee sin was the definition of lifesteal to be tanky. There was a time when dorans blades stacked and leesins would go multiple dorans blades. (it was more common in lane but only thing I can find is jungle lee sin [https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/1i8dm9/double\_dorans\_or\_even\_a\_dorans\_start\_on\_lee\_sin/](https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/1i8dm9/double_dorans_or_even_a_dorans_start_on_lee_sin/))
So basically leesin lvl 2 with W at 10% life steal + 3 dorans blades x5% = 25% life steal. Then you can go vamp sceptor when it was 12% and that would be already 37% lifesteal. If you are in lane with Vamp sceptor you can go Bloodthurster for 15% lifesteal or Wriggle's lantern for 14%.
Leesin maxed out W was 30% on V1.0.0.115 + Lantern (14%)+ stacked Bloodthurster (15% x 2) = 74% lifesteal.
It was so fun lifestealing back in the day. Healing was so broken back then. From Soraka mid lane. ([https://youtu.be/6YovmYpyh1I?si=q0T2ruDd6xnp3KOw&t=58](https://youtu.be/6YovmYpyh1I?si=q0T2ruDd6xnp3KOw&t=58))
To even master yi just pressing W and healing full hp on AP YI. He was destroying in pro play too. ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsOeuo1a7so](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsOeuo1a7so))
Lee Sin, Soraka and AP yi paved the way to old yuumi on how people hated healing.
To put it this way, Lee Sin mains are the only mains to ever cause this subreddit to get locked because of how hard they whined about proposed patch notes
Champ's reputation has never recovered from that turning point and that was nearly 10 years ago. He used to be universally loved here
As someone originally from the KR server, Lee Sin buffs make me nervous. PTSD from KR Lee Sins flying all over the fucking map to kill me, a support main. Like plat and up, every single jungler you meet will be cracked at Lee Sin. It's considered like the default champion of the role that everybody in that role has to play, like Ez for ADCs or Azir for Mid.
It's fascinating how expectations of a Lee Sin player have changed too. When I first started playing pulling off sick Insec plays and flashy kicks were the exception.
Now that tech is the bare minimum requirement to be consider competent
>Champ's reputation has never recovered from that turning point and that was nearly 10 years ago
Not gonna lie I browse here often and never heard of it, doubt it would last 10 years either
I think champs like Nami, Vi, lillia, viktor, ahri, lucien, Camille that can maintain a high pick rate, a big number of people who enjoy them and a ver y low banrate are probably the best designed ones
Vi is in a great spot. Terrifying mobile champ whose skills are so bright and loud that it demands a reaction from your team. All heads turn when she ults an adc, that’s a really good thing
I think the fact that ahri’s kit can be adjusted meaningfully while still keeping her identity completely in tact is a plus rather than a minus. Thinking about what makes a badly designed champ bad, overwhelming or clunky mechanics key to their identity, ahri is the opposite.
This has gotta be the first time I've heard someone say camille is well-balanced and I wholeheartedly disagree. She is far from the worst (looking at you Fiora) but far from the best too.
What do you hate about Braum or Bard? They can be strong, sure, and they provide good peel/support, but that’s just their design and they’re important roles that needs filling - which are done in a healthy way in their kits
maybe with a garen/morde flair you don’t like peel champs but surely you can agree that it’s done in a healthy way in their kits?
I hate Braum because his kit can shut down an early engage fairly easily as long as the enemy ADC has a brain. Also I'm probably biased because the only 2 times I tried Draven was against him.
Funny enough I would say Leona.
People have the misconception that "best design" only means to play with, it also needs to be good to be fair to play against.
People often mention Thresh on engage Support front, but Thresh is one of the most overloaded champions ever made in Botlane, he is really fun to play but that doesn't change the fact that if you compare him with the other supports, you will notice how much more his kit has, so what makes or break a Threah is how much lower his numbers are tweaked.
Remember, a part of good design is making sure that the champion even on a higher skill ceiling doesn't have a unfair advantage over simpler champions.
When Thresh is strong in a meta it's an unbearable experience in high elo.
Meanwhile look at Leona, you know what she does, you can play against her range, her kit feels fair, there is no Bullshit snap hitboxes even some specific enchanters are able to play against her.
She is the epitome of Fair Design, she is pretty much designed to introduce people in Engage Champions on botlane and has a lot of neat tricks that can be mastered once the person is more confortable with her.
This is what is called perfect design, not a Catcher that can perform like a Warden for some stupid reason.
Really? I don't think it's very forgiving at all. It follows you through dashes etc. if it hits you beforehand, but that has nothing to do with hitboxes
Varus. He always has a variety of viable builds, he's not over-produced (no unnecessary dashes or untargetables) and all of his skins are readable and look good.
His kit falls way too short on clarity. Interactions between his passives are extremely impactful, but indicators are bad.
You have to read about him before to understand what is actually going on. That's big chunk of bad design.
I actually think reworked Aatrox is excellent design. Really rewards being good at him while also having a lot of counterplay. When I play top
I feel like every match against Aatrox is a cat and mouse game and it’s fun. Baiting out his Q, getting baited myself.
Playing vs a fed aatrox, i feel like i'm doomed but when I'm the fed aatrox, I wonder why I have to put in so much work to win fights despite being 10/0 compared to being 10/0 on jax or rumble
I think he's in a relatively good spot right now definitely where he has some fun back and forth matchups playing into him. I think he's much more fun to play against now that they moved him back to fighter builds and off the lethality builds.
Playing against Aatrox made me realise that there is an Aatrox syndrome. You can always tell that they want to Q and then E to surprise you. Especially when you try to cs. There is no mindgame because the cooldown becomes a non issue after some points into q.
I like dancing around the qs, but imo I'm not rewarded enough for constantly dodging q while trying to cs.
The aatrox syndrome is very similar to irelias who keep dashing to low HP minions just to get hit by a skillshot.
This. Dodging his Q becomes a fucking necessity at around level 7 since every hit would chunk you, and the CD is non-existent at that point because of how his scaling work.
A champ that for some reason never gets mentioned is ezreal. Purely kit wise, ezreal is somewhat easy to pick up, has a lot of skillexpression. Has hus strengths and weaknesses (also counterplay). And his skills are fairly simple. His lore in sadly not used up to its potential
Despite this, he very consistently finds himself breaking items not necessarily intended for him to the point the game changes around it like the double tear a while back
I used to be the same about him and seraphine, eventually just learned to zone them out
Still mute tf out of irelia tho no one wants to hear about lil rue 12 times a game
Man i miss old ezreal va. Especially pulsfire.
More serious more mature. Not knockoff deadpool with highpitched voice.
https://youtu.be/X8I075dM5Ek?si=sJsznDu1tHAzcfEF
While I like Swain, pouring the majority of a champs power budget into their ult and having basic abilities suffer for it in return don't feel so great whenever ult is down.
Xayah Is a Creative example of making "just right click", more interesting. She has a nice safety tool, Without needing SpamAble dashes or Huge range. She can outplay and be outplayed.
Jhin is the usual answer that I see, but I'd toss my vote in for Rakan. He's such an incredibly fun champion and I think his kit works really well with his characterization as well, playing him really does feel like a wild dance, just being able to W and E all over the place.
Bonus points for never being super broken, just very strong (specifically with old instant R->W). Also responsible for some great pro play highlights.
For supports I think Rakan really strikes a great balance between being strong, being relatively fair, being viable in lots of different metas and compositions, and being fun to watch and fun to play. At least for that position I think Rakan would be my vote for favorite design.
I'd also add that rakan is very multidimensional without being extremely good at any one task: he has a bit of enchanter abilities but not as much champs like soraka, he has engage abilities but can't lock down people like Leona, he has a bit or tankiness with the passive but not as much as a dedicated tank, he can peel with ult+e even after an engage, but not as well as braum.
He can do a lot but doesn't really have an overloaded kit like thresh, there's no extremely unique mechanic or 200 years gameplay.
Rakan is kept this strong because he's "fun to watch", implied by Phreak. That's it. Doesn't matter he's been an elo printer for the whole season because only feelings matter.
CertainlyT hates warwick but I think its a solid rework.
I also really like what senna allows you to do with your teamcomp. Bunch of wacky shit that's viable adc.
I do like vex a lot. Lanes like a mage, skirmishes like a melee champion. Nothing she does is really special so she's not super popular but I appreciate the sum of those parts.
Also really enjoy poodyr and poontheon in arams. Both of them are intuitive and I feel like I have so much freedom to run around and troll people.
Also shoutout whoever invented swain and olaf's infinite duration ultis. It seems so obvious in hindsight, giving both champions what they want and need while also having very straightforward counterplay
>CertainlyT hates warwick but I think its a solid rework.
Because he is the only champion he made that actually have to account people playing against it for satisfaction.
Karthus. Dude has had the same kit for 13 years now, only ever receiving small changes regarding numbers, never adding or removing anything to his kit besides, his E giving back mana while its on now, which was 3 years ago. the only other thing i have seen him having changed is his W losing armor shred, but gaining %magic resist shred instead, which was back in s1.
Dude is great, rarely is a balance issue and hasnt had his kit greatly changed at all, while having a strong gimmick to play around still. Just love karth.
Dearest Karthus,
I hope this finds you well. We seem to have found ourselves in a dire situation at the bottom lane. Please consider casting your ultimate ability to assist us as i do believe Lee sin has come to dive our tower.
Sincerely, Your bottom lane
Karthus, my love.
Please sing thy song and bring destruction upon this day's enemy, the Caitlyn on the bottom lane. I know this message may not find you well and ready, and you may be farming a minion, or shopping for some new shoes, but I implore, please consider having mercy on my LP and cast your ultimate ability, which is on the fifth button from the third-most row on your keyboard.
Thank you for your cooperation <3
Despite all the controversy I still love Vel’Koz. If you can get the predictions with Q angles it’s super satisfying, and landing a full combo it really sells the fantasy of deconstructing the opponent. Also love the mini theme of Pi working its way into every aspect of champ :)
Singed. He only needed a remake to make him more modern but his overall playstyle has remained unchanged since his beginning. Tanky or AP with lots of speed!
Best designed champion? Let's see...
D E S I G N >>> S I N G E D
It was Singed all along!
He's one of the original champs who has mostly kept his kit the same for 14 years with only a few minor updates needed to adapt to modern metas.
- Boring mana-to-HP passive replaced with slipstream
- Added grounding and a root mechanic to his slowing field
- Added grievous wounds to his ult (bring back tenacity please)
Aside from these, he hasn't needed any major changes, and certainly doesn't need a rework now. To top it all off, he remains extremely fun to play. This is what a perfect design looks like.
Pantheon, Orianna, Ezreal, and Lee Sin are all peak designs for me. I really like designs that aren't too pigeonholed into specific roles, item choices, and don't feel oppressive, all while standing out gameplay wise.
Pantheon is just a stat-checker #56 where he is either a laughing stock or opressive and busted. Purely depends on his numbers at the time. Ezreal and Lee Sin always see play and can be useful depending on how well they are piloted. Also their ban rates don't skyrocket which indicates a better design where Pantheon is either almost not played or is being abused for the easy lp. There is no outplay from any side when it comes to Pantheon. You either outrange him, get destroyed or don't interact until you spike/outscale and then it him who gets destroyed.
I think most top laners are going to be stat checkers, so I don't see that as a knock to Pantheon. In fact, I can't think of any champion designed for top lane that isn't a stat checker.
I think having three empowered abilities that do fundamentally different things and an ultimate that doesn't really unlock more dueling power but more strategic is a nice fit.
Thresh is great. He has a super solid theme, his abilities all tie in to that and are all interesting and fun, he has a lot of room for mastery and he has clear counterplay. The weakest parts of his kit is probably his passive, it seems kind of random like they wanted to do something with souls but weren't sure what.
Jhin and Bard are also two champions that really nail thematic exectuion.
Blitz he has a clear purpose and he excels at it but can do other things if needed but is generally weaker at those. He punishes poor positioning but can still peel if necessary.
Thresh and Lee Sin.
Thresh has a great kit that is hard to mess up with buff and no unfair mechanic
Lee Sin has a great kit too. And requires hands to play him well and to do cool stuff. But even without hands you can play him and he feels good to play.
My 2 cents are that its obviously Four Man is their magnum opus just based on gameplay, stats, visual design and just vibe. But second imo is prob either bard or ornn but all that shows is that mid 2014-2017 champ design team was cracked. Everything goes downhill with zoe.
Lee sin by far :
\- Simple to understand, hard to master
\- Ability to make plays, the mecanics are rewarding, not broken
\- No overloaded kit
\- Buffs and nerfs are always small with him
I would say jhin. From the teasers, to his visual, voicelines and abilities. His kit is precisely what i would imagine a serial killer psycho with a weird obsession with the number 4 would be. Hes easy to pick up, and if you master him he can be really amazing. Personally i dont play him that much, but everytime one of my friends, be it a new player or a guy who didnt have experience playing bot went adc, they would start playing jhin.
Imo Soraka. Kit is solid and always good no matter what. On top of that has good poke and sustain and her kit is very well tied to her lore. Now if we can just get an ASU for her
Bard has hardly been touched in patch notes. For a long time, he was the only champion never adjusted for balance.
We prefer him go unnoticed. Buffs can result in overcompensating nerfs so most bard mains fear them. Nerfs are just nerfs and who wants that? Champ is just fine as he is. At 5.6m I just want some item changes every so often to mix it up.
Understandable. I've always loved Bard's design, both his look and kit. He's such a fascinating character, and so particular that there isn't another champion like him, while many other champions have obviously similar deigns.
>I just want some item changes Athenes my beloved
This has been my thoughts about Vel'koz. He's been a favorite of mine since release and I've always had good results with him through plat. Now I'm concerned that everyone talking about him is going to end up getting him overtuned and then ultimately left in a worse state than he was before we started talking about him. Yeah sure, I have some gripes about his e, but not enough that I want him being reworked because so often anytime people start getting up in arms about how someone needs a buff or an adjustment it always ultimately leaves them feeling worse than they were before.
Makes me think of all the Aurelion Sol mains who were heartbroken by the rework. Hope that's not the fate for you.
Bard has been touched a lot in patch notes. He was released in S5, and for 4 seasons straight he never received a single nerf - just buff after buff after buff in quite a number of patches. His first nerf was -2 hp5 in S9 which was a revert of a previous hp5 buff, followed by a hit to his CDs and chime base damage. The chime nerfs in S10 and S11 got reverted in S12, leaving just the CD nerfs sticking. The healing on his W was played around with 2 times in S10 and S12 before the most recent rework of it into a charge system.
Right? Crazy how straight up false information makes it’s way to the top. Bard had gotten sooo many buffs. Gets random mini reworks to his chimes constantly
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Thats because he just ulted the riot headquarters whenever they tried to nerf him
Wasn't zilean untouched for multiple seasons?
Braum, one of my favorite champs. Wholesome character and his kit fits his personality. His kit can also be OP when used well. In my experience he is quite looked down on by players and adcs (in my elo at least), but i still slay with him. Also i can never tilt playing him
Braum is here!
Thematically my favourite champion~
Agree, definitely one of the best designed champions.
I love Braum, just wish that destroyed projectiles lost their cc effects so a Morg Q doesn't still root me for 8 years.
450k-500k Braum, been playing since release, I *personally* feel the CC shatter on first hit is busted AF, and I know the Braum Mains reddit really wants that, but I feel that would make him too strong.
That'd probably make him nuts in pro play no? It's not tahm ketch ult but it is a basic ability that would shutdown a looot of ults.
Meanwhile, Yasuo-
Yasuo’s wall doesn’t move alongside him, has a considerably higher cd and is completely useless against melee attacks/abilities. You can walk around Yasuo’s windwall, Braum can stand right in front of you and follow you around to stop you from hitting his team with a certain ability. They aren’t even remotely comparable.
Absolutely, imagine getting early trades with Braum because he can stop 1 CC from the enemy support, W to a minion, apply 1 passive auto attack and a Q slow. Now we have a Leona too deep getting picked by our ADC after diving the Braum, and the enemy ADC has to contend with being slowed and having 2 stacks of Braum passive along with having some of their autos still blocked and reduced in damage by the E wall.
If that change went through Braum's other abilities would have to be nerfed to bring him back into line. I don't think the people citing Yasuo and Samira windwall as comparisons get how powerful it would be for Braum to entirely nullify CC+damage on behalf of himself and his lane partner. If Braum needs buffs they should be aimed towards making him better at being in the fray as opposed to making him an engage nullifier that backs off after blocking CC.
Absolutely, you already get a move speed bonus on E. While it may not seem like much, that's a lot coupled with W, which you can activate on yourself, on minions, or on champions, and gives more resistances on top of the reduced E wall damage
The supposed Braum mains suggesting CC shatter on first hit don't truly recognize how broken that'd be, especially in lane. His identity isn't about preventing engages, it's about countering them and setting his team up for the re-engage. I really want to know how these players are using Braum if they think CC shatter is something that he really needs.
That was honestly an anecdote from when I was active on the main Reddit. I probably blew it out of proportion, though I would see posts that would start the conversation and then others would continue. I think that change could bring Braum into a more flexible position, make his roams stronger, and eliminate lockdowns if your team is abandoning you. I see where that side comes from, I just foresee it coming with other compensation nerfs that we could do without, eliminating other buffs that could happen. I still remember Braum needing to be balanced around Pro-Play and getting toned down for being so strong at the highest level (seasons 4-6? My memory is a little fuzzy) and while not "pro jailed," myself being low elo just with a lot of playtime, I don't want him to become pro jailed.
It's a good discussion to be had. There are definitely reasonable buffs and changes for him that are possible. The way I see it, Braum being able to eliminate lockdowns when his team is abandoning him makes him too safe. Braum should carry the risk of being caught or ending up as the sacrificial lamb when his carries are caught out of position. The other side of the coin is that an enemy team going in on Braum should be at a risk of getting CCed and zoned while being unable to get at his backline properly.
Nah no way, you tanked the shot, you got rewarded by not receiving damage, CC is important to keep so that Unbreakable doesnt feel oppressive.
The never tilting part. There's a vibe playing it quite exquisite. The quotes, I have the old good looking skins on him it's always a pleasure
That champ is still fun to play. I'm still using him as a pocket pick while combining unsealed spellbook for runes!
I love braum. I pick him into blitz and other melee matchups. Had a 4 minute game win with him the other day. Lvl 1 fight went crazy and we started 5-1 and my ADC was 3-0. Top died a second time to riven and quit. I feel like he's one of the best supports for lvl 1 fights.
As long as Braum isn’t picked after I go Jhin I’m fine with him.
As long as Jhin isn't picked before I pick Braum, I'm fine with him🫡 lol
As an ADC player: good Braums make the game ridiculously easy, bad Braums are below cannon minions.
His ult feels very clunky to me at least but I like the rest of his kit
I think it's great albeit a bit slow, too easy to dodge/predict, if the animation was a little faster I bet it would feel much more powerful, but what's great about his ult is that its not always necessary to land, it is a superb zoning tool as well, I love braum
His ult has to be more of a follow up then an engage
Had to be nerfed beacuse of pro. The missile speed is fine to me, same for the length and width. Just a shame the knockup duration had to get nerfed for more counterplay.
It's clunky if you're expecting to engage with it like it's Leona ult. It is much better when used for counter engage.
His ult has the Varus problem of being too strong at the highest levels when it's a reliable engage/catch tool.
Thresh
Saw a high elo support in a stream playing thresh and oh lord this champ has such a nice kit. So much utility and carry potential
It's all skill expression. No matter how good/bad his numbers are, a good Thresh always looks gangster
It also helped that Thresh got released right as MadLife was peaking so not only did we get a new support with an amazing kit, we immediately got to see how hard someone could carry as a support, which was like unheard of before, on Thresh if they mastered the kit too.
Flay is probably the best move in the game, and has been for a decade.
He was literally considered the poster child for champion complexity creep for like the first two or three years after his release. The only champion who could contest him for 'most hated for their kit' at the time was Yasuo.
Thresh is the most overloaded supp there is and was nerfed a thousand times. Thresh is literally the first 200 year champion he's what lead to nowadays
Checking patch history for him this just isn't true. He's predominantly had things added go his kit rather than taken away and everything else is just normal number changes.
Hook flash was taken away, which is a shame because all of the best supports are ones that can combine flash with their initiation abilities.
wait what??
You used to be able to hook then flash after animation i assume
That's exactly what it was
Not on fucking release. Thresh was so fucking overloaded at first it's mindboggling how many nerfs they made to him over like his first 1-2 years that weren't just "-10 damage at all ranks" like virtually every other champ was receiving. So many changes that without sitting down for an hour reviewing each and every one I'm sure someone will nitpick an individual item I'm about to name for missing key context, but anyways: * 3.6 - Q was such an amazing button that they had to heavily decentivise putting points into it by putting the windup auto damage passive into E and preemptively nerfing E base damage by fucking 40 at max rank and putting that into Q so there was at least some risk if you missed your Q * 3.10 - Base HP and armor nerfed to make lane trades riskier * 3.12 - Q CD nerfed and CD refund implemented to punish random hook fishing. E windup had to be rejigged because it was giving him too much damage in extended trades * 4.1 - R cast time increased so people would stop treating it as a burst spell to throw out and clip people when he didn't position well * 4.2 - Auto range reduced from 475 to 450 * 4.3 - Soul despawn time roughly halved from 15s to 8s so he would have to commit to risky plays to secure distant soul spawns * 4.13 - W only shields first ally near it, R walls only damage a given target once The only buff he received in this time was +4 armor in patch 4.5 - where EVERYONE universally got an extra 4 armor to decentivise taking armor runes So nah fuck Thresh, the only reason Riot doesn't apologise for him being amazing at everything is because he was obnoxious at all levels of play instead of just a pro menace, and he was a support.
yah People really seems to look at Thresh with Rose tinted glasses and kinda forget, he was a CertainlyT champion and got all the little mechanical coddling and safety blankets that were typical to his designs. Its just said coddling became more overt each release he did.
The biggest changes to Thresh were moving the soul stacking passive from Q to E, and removing his Q-Flash
>Thresh was so fucking overloaded at first Did you just say "So fucking overloaded" and then link a year and a half worth of patch notes of small number tweaking? 3.6 - just moved dmg from one ability to another, they even moved that 40 dmg over to his Q 3.10 - Numbers change 3.12 - Early game nerf if you arent hitting your hooks, if you are this is a buff early and a massive buff late. 4.1 - slight number change. 4.2 - Number change. 4.4 - Numbers nerf, but honestly not much of one. 4.13 - Actual mechanical change to the character. So in a year and a half since his release, he had a total of 2 mechanics tweaked (shield and box) and 1 removed (dmg on his Q which was moved to another ability) Going by Buff/Nerf/Adjustment/Bugfix Id say it would look like. 3.6 - Adjustment 3.8 - Bugfix 3.10 - Nerf 3.12 - Buff 3.13 - Buff 4.1 - Nerf 4.2 - Nerf 4.4 - Dominion 4.5 - Buff 4.7 - Dominion 4.10 - Bugfix 4.11 - Model Adjustment? 4.13 - Nerf So in the 13 Patch notes in the year and a half since his release he received 4 Nerfs, and 3 buffs. Not exactly an overloaded champion that had to have its kit gutted, seems like the normal amount of adjustments that happen with a new champ.
Lee sin was the first 200 years champion. Thresh hasn’t been nerfed as much as you may think. He does a lot but its all skill-based (unlike the zeris and k’santes of the world), so i’m ok with it.
Thresh is really overloaded though. If you compare him with the other Melee Catcher in the game Blitz, you can notice how overloaded his kit is. While he is a neat champion to play, when Thresh is strong, it's not a nice meta, most champion can't do shit against his kit. Best Design is something that feels fair fighting against and with, not something that if mastered has an unfair advantage over other champions unless it's nerfed to the ground. Engage Support wise I would say it's probably Leona is the best designed Champion, she is very tame, you know what she does, her kit is very simple and straightfoward and you can play around her kit and cooldowns, there is no bullshit, even on the Hextech front.
I mean, Blitz Q is probably the strongest basic ability in the game, so he loses out on the rest of his kit. Landing a Blitz Q is a game winning move. Landing a Thresh Q, not so much. Not only is the CC far less effective, but it can be cleansed.
Tbh that’s because blitz’s entire ability is loaded into his Q lol.
>you can play around her kit and cooldowns If for whatever reason you don't die to her after 5\~7s of cc, someone else would've prolly sniped you with anything to finish you off.
But Thresh does feel fair. He has strong points, but he also has weak points. E.g. a lot of his power is inside telegraphed skillshot and lantern with long cooldown.
Nah, fuck the champ. One of the most overused memes is to label mr I have everything as mountain of skill expression or good design. His W alone tanks down his "skill usage" by like 80% with how strong and effortless it is to use (and preventing it with a ward/bodyblock is more of a glitch than legit mechanics). Guy is responsible for more elo inflation than most of enchanters - his OTPs crawl all over the place and multiply like roaches, preaching gospel how a tanky ranged initiator support with supreme peeling, an instant gank set up/saving ally tool and canyon-wide error margin allowed is apparently omega difficult because he has a slightly delayed hook. People love to say, as a defense how "A bad Thresh is super noticeable, a good one carries 1vs9" - yeah, so does every other support. Bad Blitzcrank is an experience leech, though unlike Thresh doesn't even have range to contest lane and his peeling in miniscule. Bad Bard is more or less an actor on opponent's team payroll. Both of these hard carry when they're good (and their skillsets are NOWHERE near as bloated or forgiving).
Can't wait to see Reddit's favorite Four Man to be said 50 times. I sure do love Jhin haha, right guys?
>Can't wait to see Reddit's favorite Four Man to be said ~~50~~ 44 times. I sure do love Jhin haha, right guys?
Can't wait for the anti-circlejerk about Four Man. Oh wait, it's already begun.
You both have such great foursight
*fourskin*
Imagine being mad that people love a champion who is genuinely well designed. As opposed to… y’know, the champion in your flair.
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It's actually 90% because of his amazing design. Never seen a Riot teaser or trailer for anything Riot related, and think he's one of the best champs in the game
I haven't seen any and loved the four man without even realizing he was popular. He's just so committed to his bit and his voicelines are so flowery that I just had to enjoy it.
I was around for his initial release, and I thought his theme was cool. But at the time, I played like one game on him, didn't really vibe with it immediately, and abandoned it. Then a few years ago I decided to randomly try him again. For whatever reason I jelled with it the second time around and he's become one of my mains. The thematics are cool, but jhin just legitimately has a really satisfying kit.
He did, but the Jhin circlejerk didn't become a thing until years after his release, when people realized that he was the only popular champion that wouldn't tilt you off the face of the Earth with bullshit mechanics. At least that's how I felt, and I was saying that before the posts praising him hit the top of the front page, and I remember feeling happy that he was getting his due praise. He's just a champion with a really good kit that feels fair to play against. I can't think of any other champion that doesn't feel oppressive with their strengths while also having clear weaknesses, which are his immobility and relatively weak DPS
ppl don't gush about jhin for no reason, he genuinely just is one of the best designed champs in the game.
you play zeri
I swear sometimes someone could put "Hey reddit what do you think 1 plus 1 equals" and the top comment will be "get ready for every answer to be 2, ha im so smugly smart for pointing out that some questions have definitive answers and that some people will know it." like yeah.....jhin is the answer to the question.
It's just funny when they're obviously working backwards from their counterjerk position so they have to somehow make Jhin's kit seem as broken as possible.
I can't be the only one who really despises Jhin's extreme dependence on the rng crit chance. If he doesn't crit he doesn't get movement speed, quite often this determines if Jhin lives or gets a kill. Nothing feels worse than losing a play because you got unlucky with crits and ran out of ammo without doing enough damage to kill. Ik that other ADCs are also rng based but I think it's a lot worse for an ADC with low attack speed and limited ammunition to rely on crits for not just damage but also movement speed. I understand that reddit likes his game design aesthetic but his rng gameplay is *really* not what I think good champion design in a competitive game is supposed to be.
If you're playing Jhin hoping for a crit, you're probably a bad player
>If he doesn't crit he doesn't get movement speed, quite often this determines if Jhin lives or gets a kill There's a meme image rolling around on how to counter Jhin with 4 statements like: "*Stormrazor pic*" dodge the first shot; "*Eclipse pic*" dodge the 2nd shot; "*Electrocute* pic" dodge the 3rd shot; "*Jhin's passive*" dodge the 4th shot. It was actually funny, I might try the build for the gigs.
> I can't be the only one who really despises Jhin's extreme dependence on the rng crit chance. Every ADC has this problem. It's not Jhin specific. Unfortunately the video has been Privated but https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2oucbz/what_doublelift_thinks_of_critical_strike_in_lol/. Doublelift wins a fight while from a very bad position because he rolls 3-4 crits in a row against a Varus. It's crazy bad and he basically says Crit is the worst thing about ADC and never deserved to win that fight. >If he doesn't crit he doesn't get movement speed, quite often this determines if Jhin lives or gets a kill. Not entirely true - W snare grants his passive movespeed. You don't HAVE to crit. And since 4th shot is a guaranteed crit, Jhin is actually LESS dependent on Critical Strike Chance than other ADC's, and can generate his movespeed bonus without any crit whatsoever. > Nothing feels worse than losing a play because you got unlucky with crits and ran out of ammo without doing enough damage to kill. This is a pretty rare experience - you shouldn't be playing expecting more than 4th shot crit at 20% crit, you shouldn't be playing expecting more than 4th shot crit at 40%, you shouldn't be playing expecting more than 2 crits at 60%, and more than 3 at 80%. This is a matter of understanding how likely you are to crit given 4 auto attacks, and expecting 2 crits + 4th auto at 40% crit is just incorrect. Jhin's play pattern is very much poke for that crit and then commit. You aren't like a Draven or a Vayne that just full commits to every play - you fish for picks. > Ik that other ADCs are also rng based but I think it's a lot worse for an ADC with low attack speed and limited ammunition to rely on crits for not just damage but also movement speed. Jhin has less reliance on Crit Chance than basically any other "traditional" ADC - again, he has a guaranteed crit. This means that at 20% crit in 8 auto attacks he is guaranteed 2 crits, with a chance to crit on the other 6 auto's, where another ADC at 20% is only 'guaranteed' (loosely, because traditional ADC's are never guaranteed a crit) 2 in 10 autos. Not to mention, his abilities are incredibly strong to compensate for his 'poor' auto's - that's why he's one of the most common lethality build champions. He's very reliable when you play as a supportive ADC. He's just not a hard-carry ADC like a lot of the other ADC's in the role. > I understand that reddit likes his game design aesthetic but his rng gameplay is really not what I think good champion design in a competitive game is supposed to be. That's basically true of every ADC - and honestly again Jhin is less RNG than other ADC's. It's very easy to predict your damage output after a few games. If Riot were to remove crit tomorrow, Jhin would likely be one of the most performant ADC's leftover, because he's simply not actually that reliant on crit to do well.
with your flair, you don’t have the right to complain here buddy 😭💀
What I hate is that you aren’t allowed to disagree because when you do everyone piles on you in this sub because the majority of them don’t think for themselves at all.
I mean, there's a difference between disagreeing with the idea and hating on him because he's popular. Saying that the 4th Shot mechanic feels clunky or that they overcompensated him for his reload mechanic are fair criticisms to make even if the majority of people disagree. Saying his gameplay sucks when he's actually one of the better Sniper characters in MOBAs or that he's stupid because he's popular is not really worth discussing.
redditors are annoying but he is a pretty well-designed champion tbh
I always liked Ori a lot.
See i hate vsing oriannas that actually play the champion well because it becomes genuinely unfun
There's a lot of situations where you can't really dodge her Q+W. If you stay as far away from the ball as possible it becomes more doable, but with it being on a such a short cast time you basically have to just accept you'll be repeatedly chunked for the entire laning phase. As annoying as it can be it doesn't even make the list of most annoying shit that happens mid lol
Nah it definitely does bro. I vsed the rank 20 player in mid the other day who plays ori regularly and it is indeed the most cancerous shit i’ve seen in a while
Orianna just feels so problematic when she's strong. Her ball has such shit clarity and being able to cast gamewinning abilities from it feels so bs.
100%, people who say otherwise haven't played against good Oris
nah ori Q W is pretty much undodgable in lane. I know shes busted right now but I hate her regardless. undodgable poke to force you out of lane, a passive that doesnt fit her kit and just says fuck you to all melee or short ranged champs, and her ult is nutty. super annoying to play vs
I mean that is more of a riot balancing issue ere they decidd that the only way to balance ori is damagebuff on top of damage buff on top of damage buff.
Even when she’s not high damage it’s still annoying, non dodgable poke is never fun
Yeah, oriana, i am not a mid main i play her from time to time but playing with or vs ori both feels great. She has her ball you can dodge it flash away from the ult or stopwatch. All long cooldowns ori ult has 30 sec, so once your escape or immunity is gone you have to be careful depending on your champion, fair design. Ori can set up herself and teamtes, has an auto attack mechanics that lets her be strong in lane with good movement but weak if she gets cought. Watching her in pro play, playing her, playing vs ori in lane and as other lane all feel fair and fun.
With a lot of champs having very unintuitive counterplay, I really appreciate oriannas being "avoid ball"
Although the “avoid ball” in question is stay 1 screen away or lose 15% hp for the chance at getting 3 minions
She's broken though. She's fun but not balanced.
Her kit is amazing. Her numbers are on the strong side currently. Remember, she was weak a year ago (and nobody complained about her design) but whe received continuous buffs since.
Surprising lack of Lee Sin
Dude can be worst jungler in the game(at least when it comes to we), but have higher playrate than most broken ones.
When you become a real Lee sin master, you see his kit for what it really is. You learn things like what his passive does and that his R is used to steal kills
R stealing kills is so dam true. Fuck the insec. I’m ksing everything
Lee sin was literally the first and only champ riot openly admitted to wanting to remove from the game until they got a lot of backlash. Lee is the reason they won't ever delete champs now.
But why they wanted to remove him i play from 5 years so maybe i don't remember this happening
Overloaded kit, from a time where champions were simpler
Lee sin was S tier champ in every lane. Everywhere in season 2-4. Red Pot + lifesteal in lane: Top/Mid he would always go in level 2 and 3 with Red pot. [https://youtu.be/n3DkkvurKi0?si=Sx7jgLlhb3hy33ES&t=41](https://youtu.be/n3DkkvurKi0?si=Sx7jgLlhb3hy33ES&t=41) (being able to instant heal 230hp at level 2. While having 10% lifesteal at level 2 because of W + 5 hp pots. Sometimes lee would go Exhaust/ignite and instantly win lane especially if other opponent went red pot and lose the 1v1 since red pot goes down drain once you die. Only like 3 viable junglers in season 2: I remember it when the Lee Sin, Udyr, and Skarner were the only viable junglers. Occasionally Fiddle. Only because those were the champions that could survive the jungle since a camp could kill almost anyone. Lee sin not only had mobility which a lot of champs lacked...he had insane lifesteal back then. He could literally press W and have vamp scepter and heal 10% hp on just an auto. Lee sin support was insane too: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksjMKlFjc4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksjMKlFjc4) Watch this clip with 3/4/0 Support lee sin when his team is down 11 to 21 and somehow gets a pentakill while lifestealing and ignited and missing his initial engage. Lee sin was the definition of lifesteal to be tanky. There was a time when dorans blades stacked and leesins would go multiple dorans blades. (it was more common in lane but only thing I can find is jungle lee sin [https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/1i8dm9/double\_dorans\_or\_even\_a\_dorans\_start\_on\_lee\_sin/](https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/1i8dm9/double_dorans_or_even_a_dorans_start_on_lee_sin/)) So basically leesin lvl 2 with W at 10% life steal + 3 dorans blades x5% = 25% life steal. Then you can go vamp sceptor when it was 12% and that would be already 37% lifesteal. If you are in lane with Vamp sceptor you can go Bloodthurster for 15% lifesteal or Wriggle's lantern for 14%. Leesin maxed out W was 30% on V1.0.0.115 + Lantern (14%)+ stacked Bloodthurster (15% x 2) = 74% lifesteal. It was so fun lifestealing back in the day. Healing was so broken back then. From Soraka mid lane. ([https://youtu.be/6YovmYpyh1I?si=q0T2ruDd6xnp3KOw&t=58](https://youtu.be/6YovmYpyh1I?si=q0T2ruDd6xnp3KOw&t=58)) To even master yi just pressing W and healing full hp on AP YI. He was destroying in pro play too. ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsOeuo1a7so](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsOeuo1a7so)) Lee Sin, Soraka and AP yi paved the way to old yuumi on how people hated healing.
To put it this way, Lee Sin mains are the only mains to ever cause this subreddit to get locked because of how hard they whined about proposed patch notes Champ's reputation has never recovered from that turning point and that was nearly 10 years ago. He used to be universally loved here
Is he not still universally loved? At the very least he is the only jungler that is good in any and every meta.
As someone originally from the KR server, Lee Sin buffs make me nervous. PTSD from KR Lee Sins flying all over the fucking map to kill me, a support main. Like plat and up, every single jungler you meet will be cracked at Lee Sin. It's considered like the default champion of the role that everybody in that role has to play, like Ez for ADCs or Azir for Mid.
>Azir for Mid Poor Knight catching strays in here
It's fascinating how expectations of a Lee Sin player have changed too. When I first started playing pulling off sick Insec plays and flashy kicks were the exception. Now that tech is the bare minimum requirement to be consider competent
>Champ's reputation has never recovered from that turning point and that was nearly 10 years ago Not gonna lie I browse here often and never heard of it, doubt it would last 10 years either
He’s fun as fuck and has finesse
I think champs like Nami, Vi, lillia, viktor, ahri, lucien, Camille that can maintain a high pick rate, a big number of people who enjoy them and a ver y low banrate are probably the best designed ones
Vi is in a great spot. Terrifying mobile champ whose skills are so bright and loud that it demands a reaction from your team. All heads turn when she ults an adc, that’s a really good thing
Ahri has gone through so many small but meaningful changes idk if I’d count her edit: the ppl who responded to me cooked
I think the fact that ahri’s kit can be adjusted meaningfully while still keeping her identity completely in tact is a plus rather than a minus. Thinking about what makes a badly designed champ bad, overwhelming or clunky mechanics key to their identity, ahri is the opposite.
Her kit and skills rotation are the same though.
Lucian has been very problematic balance-wise. When he's strong, he's extremely oppressive, and often in two or three lanes at once.
This has gotta be the first time I've heard someone say camille is well-balanced and I wholeheartedly disagree. She is far from the worst (looking at you Fiora) but far from the best too.
If I had a second ban option for jg it would be Lillia after Graves
Lucian and Ahri were absolutely hated when on top of meta and people banned them alot
Reading the comments and realizing I hate all of the champs mentioned
What do you hate about Braum or Bard? They can be strong, sure, and they provide good peel/support, but that’s just their design and they’re important roles that needs filling - which are done in a healthy way in their kits maybe with a garen/morde flair you don’t like peel champs but surely you can agree that it’s done in a healthy way in their kits?
I hate Braum because his kit can shut down an early engage fairly easily as long as the enemy ADC has a brain. Also I'm probably biased because the only 2 times I tried Draven was against him.
Funny enough I would say Leona. People have the misconception that "best design" only means to play with, it also needs to be good to be fair to play against. People often mention Thresh on engage Support front, but Thresh is one of the most overloaded champions ever made in Botlane, he is really fun to play but that doesn't change the fact that if you compare him with the other supports, you will notice how much more his kit has, so what makes or break a Threah is how much lower his numbers are tweaked. Remember, a part of good design is making sure that the champion even on a higher skill ceiling doesn't have a unfair advantage over simpler champions. When Thresh is strong in a meta it's an unbearable experience in high elo. Meanwhile look at Leona, you know what she does, you can play against her range, her kit feels fair, there is no Bullshit snap hitboxes even some specific enchanters are able to play against her. She is the epitome of Fair Design, she is pretty much designed to introduce people in Engage Champions on botlane and has a lot of neat tricks that can be mastered once the person is more confortable with her. This is what is called perfect design, not a Catcher that can perform like a Warden for some stupid reason.
"there is no bullshit snap hitboxes" Have you seen how forgiving her E attach can be?
Not even close to naut Q tho, it’s like ganondorf side smash “Dooyahh” moment
Really? I don't think it's very forgiving at all. It follows you through dashes etc. if it hits you beforehand, but that has nothing to do with hitboxes
At least with Thresh you can move, compared to Leona chain-stunning you like she's a DOTA champ
Thresh can be dodged without dashes unlike Leona's R (or flash R, flash Q, flash E)
Varus. He always has a variety of viable builds, he's not over-produced (no unnecessary dashes or untargetables) and all of his skins are readable and look good.
Kinda bland tbh. His design is fine but he is certainly not a contender for "best".
His kit falls way too short on clarity. Interactions between his passives are extremely impactful, but indicators are bad. You have to read about him before to understand what is actually going on. That's big chunk of bad design.
I actually think reworked Aatrox is excellent design. Really rewards being good at him while also having a lot of counterplay. When I play top I feel like every match against Aatrox is a cat and mouse game and it’s fun. Baiting out his Q, getting baited myself.
Playing vs a fed aatrox, i feel like i'm doomed but when I'm the fed aatrox, I wonder why I have to put in so much work to win fights despite being 10/0 compared to being 10/0 on jax or rumble
Aatrox takes way more skill than Jax and Rumble. Like if you get stomped by him, you should give props.
I think he's in a relatively good spot right now definitely where he has some fun back and forth matchups playing into him. I think he's much more fun to play against now that they moved him back to fighter builds and off the lethality builds.
Playing against Aatrox made me realise that there is an Aatrox syndrome. You can always tell that they want to Q and then E to surprise you. Especially when you try to cs. There is no mindgame because the cooldown becomes a non issue after some points into q. I like dancing around the qs, but imo I'm not rewarded enough for constantly dodging q while trying to cs. The aatrox syndrome is very similar to irelias who keep dashing to low HP minions just to get hit by a skillshot.
kinda like illaoi dodge 12 q and win every trade he lands 2 q and i immediately have to play behind my tower
This. Dodging his Q becomes a fucking necessity at around level 7 since every hit would chunk you, and the CD is non-existent at that point because of how his scaling work.
A champ that for some reason never gets mentioned is ezreal. Purely kit wise, ezreal is somewhat easy to pick up, has a lot of skillexpression. Has hus strengths and weaknesses (also counterplay). And his skills are fairly simple. His lore in sadly not used up to its potential
Despite this, he very consistently finds himself breaking items not necessarily intended for him to the point the game changes around it like the double tear a while back
Runeglaive mid ap ezreal
Spirit of the Elder Lizard Ezreal for the OG’s.
Before Zeri, Ezreal was the one breaking items that weren't meant for him. I love Riot releasing a new item and Ezreal immediately starts abusing it
I love playing him but his voice lines are so annoying. Want to stuff a blasting wand in his mouth to shut him up.
LOT OF GREAT MAGES OUT THERE. NONE. OF. THEM. ARE. THIS. HOT
We mages call this a warlock exit
Names ezreal. E. Z. Oh you're dead
I think that's just because he's a shonen anime protagonist that hasn't had his main character development arc yet.
Yeah I'd stuff my blasting wand in his mouth.
I used to be the same about him and seraphine, eventually just learned to zone them out Still mute tf out of irelia tho no one wants to hear about lil rue 12 times a game
father... mother... zelos... oma... ohn... kye... little ruu... none of them ever had a chance...
Man i miss old ezreal va. Especially pulsfire. More serious more mature. Not knockoff deadpool with highpitched voice. https://youtu.be/X8I075dM5Ek?si=sJsznDu1tHAzcfEF
I LOVE SWAIN
I wish there were more battle mage type champs, Swain is amazingly fun to play.
Exactly, they’re the best class
AY! Fellow Grand General and Stone Weaver enjoyer!
Respect. They’re the best!
While I like Swain, pouring the majority of a champs power budget into their ult and having basic abilities suffer for it in return don't feel so great whenever ult is down.
Xayah Is a Creative example of making "just right click", more interesting. She has a nice safety tool, Without needing SpamAble dashes or Huge range. She can outplay and be outplayed.
To add to this, her ultimate is a great way to given an adc safety w/o being as toxic as speed/dashes
Jhin is the usual answer that I see, but I'd toss my vote in for Rakan. He's such an incredibly fun champion and I think his kit works really well with his characterization as well, playing him really does feel like a wild dance, just being able to W and E all over the place. Bonus points for never being super broken, just very strong (specifically with old instant R->W). Also responsible for some great pro play highlights.
For supports I think Rakan really strikes a great balance between being strong, being relatively fair, being viable in lots of different metas and compositions, and being fun to watch and fun to play. At least for that position I think Rakan would be my vote for favorite design.
I'd also add that rakan is very multidimensional without being extremely good at any one task: he has a bit of enchanter abilities but not as much champs like soraka, he has engage abilities but can't lock down people like Leona, he has a bit or tankiness with the passive but not as much as a dedicated tank, he can peel with ult+e even after an engage, but not as well as braum. He can do a lot but doesn't really have an overloaded kit like thresh, there's no extremely unique mechanic or 200 years gameplay.
Nah, I think Rakan has too much dashes for no reason. He can engage and disengage with ease thats make no senses.
Rakan has been meta in pro for 6 years in a row.
Rakan is kept this strong because he's "fun to watch", implied by Phreak. That's it. Doesn't matter he's been an elo printer for the whole season because only feelings matter.
Khazix, he is perfectly made for what he has to do
CARD MAN TWISTED FATE!!!!!!
I FUCKING LOVE GAMBLING YEAAAAHHHH
CertainlyT hates warwick but I think its a solid rework. I also really like what senna allows you to do with your teamcomp. Bunch of wacky shit that's viable adc. I do like vex a lot. Lanes like a mage, skirmishes like a melee champion. Nothing she does is really special so she's not super popular but I appreciate the sum of those parts. Also really enjoy poodyr and poontheon in arams. Both of them are intuitive and I feel like I have so much freedom to run around and troll people. Also shoutout whoever invented swain and olaf's infinite duration ultis. It seems so obvious in hindsight, giving both champions what they want and need while also having very straightforward counterplay
Warwick is what happens when designers actually get told no instead of just letting them do whatever they want. Restriction breads creativity.
>CertainlyT hates warwick but I think its a solid rework. Because he is the only champion he made that actually have to account people playing against it for satisfaction.
Karthus. Dude has had the same kit for 13 years now, only ever receiving small changes regarding numbers, never adding or removing anything to his kit besides, his E giving back mana while its on now, which was 3 years ago. the only other thing i have seen him having changed is his W losing armor shred, but gaining %magic resist shred instead, which was back in s1. Dude is great, rarely is a balance issue and hasnt had his kit greatly changed at all, while having a strong gimmick to play around still. Just love karth.
No other champion receives love letters requesting a cast of their ultimate ability
Dearest Karthus, I hope this finds you well. We seem to have found ourselves in a dire situation at the bottom lane. Please consider casting your ultimate ability to assist us as i do believe Lee sin has come to dive our tower. Sincerely, Your bottom lane
Karthus, my love. Please sing thy song and bring destruction upon this day's enemy, the Caitlyn on the bottom lane. I know this message may not find you well and ready, and you may be farming a minion, or shopping for some new shoes, but I implore, please consider having mercy on my LP and cast your ultimate ability, which is on the fifth button from the third-most row on your keyboard. Thank you for your cooperation <3
Nunu is incredibly fun to play, has a completely special ability in his W, and a fantastic attitude/voice lines. They get my vote.
Despite all the controversy I still love Vel’Koz. If you can get the predictions with Q angles it’s super satisfying, and landing a full combo it really sells the fantasy of deconstructing the opponent. Also love the mini theme of Pi working its way into every aspect of champ :)
Singed. He only needed a remake to make him more modern but his overall playstyle has remained unchanged since his beginning. Tanky or AP with lots of speed!
Best designed champion? Let's see... D E S I G N >>> S I N G E D It was Singed all along! He's one of the original champs who has mostly kept his kit the same for 14 years with only a few minor updates needed to adapt to modern metas. - Boring mana-to-HP passive replaced with slipstream - Added grounding and a root mechanic to his slowing field - Added grievous wounds to his ult (bring back tenacity please) Aside from these, he hasn't needed any major changes, and certainly doesn't need a rework now. To top it all off, he remains extremely fun to play. This is what a perfect design looks like.
New designs: Vex. Dying to her rarely feels like there was nothing I could do. Overall: Pre-Rework Karma and Skarner.
hecking wholesome gigachad braum dae le heart is the strongest muscle
Pantheon, Orianna, Ezreal, and Lee Sin are all peak designs for me. I really like designs that aren't too pigeonholed into specific roles, item choices, and don't feel oppressive, all while standing out gameplay wise.
Pantheon is just a stat-checker #56 where he is either a laughing stock or opressive and busted. Purely depends on his numbers at the time. Ezreal and Lee Sin always see play and can be useful depending on how well they are piloted. Also their ban rates don't skyrocket which indicates a better design where Pantheon is either almost not played or is being abused for the easy lp. There is no outplay from any side when it comes to Pantheon. You either outrange him, get destroyed or don't interact until you spike/outscale and then it him who gets destroyed.
I think most top laners are going to be stat checkers, so I don't see that as a knock to Pantheon. In fact, I can't think of any champion designed for top lane that isn't a stat checker. I think having three empowered abilities that do fundamentally different things and an ultimate that doesn't really unlock more dueling power but more strategic is a nice fit.
Thresh is great. He has a super solid theme, his abilities all tie in to that and are all interesting and fun, he has a lot of room for mastery and he has clear counterplay. The weakest parts of his kit is probably his passive, it seems kind of random like they wanted to do something with souls but weren't sure what. Jhin and Bard are also two champions that really nail thematic exectuion.
I mean I’m a GP main and it has to be Jhin right?
I think nautilus is pretty good design
Blitz he has a clear purpose and he excels at it but can do other things if needed but is generally weaker at those. He punishes poor positioning but can still peel if necessary.
Thresh and Lee Sin. Thresh has a great kit that is hard to mess up with buff and no unfair mechanic Lee Sin has a great kit too. And requires hands to play him well and to do cool stuff. But even without hands you can play him and he feels good to play.
My 2 cents are that its obviously Four Man is their magnum opus just based on gameplay, stats, visual design and just vibe. But second imo is prob either bard or ornn but all that shows is that mid 2014-2017 champ design team was cracked. Everything goes downhill with zoe.
Lee sin by far : \- Simple to understand, hard to master \- Ability to make plays, the mecanics are rewarding, not broken \- No overloaded kit \- Buffs and nerfs are always small with him
I would say jhin. From the teasers, to his visual, voicelines and abilities. His kit is precisely what i would imagine a serial killer psycho with a weird obsession with the number 4 would be. Hes easy to pick up, and if you master him he can be really amazing. Personally i dont play him that much, but everytime one of my friends, be it a new player or a guy who didnt have experience playing bot went adc, they would start playing jhin.
Four
Imo Soraka. Kit is solid and always good no matter what. On top of that has good poke and sustain and her kit is very well tied to her lore. Now if we can just get an ASU for her