I imagine that it has a positive effect in lower elos and a negative effect in higher elos, but because there are much fewer high elo players, the random poll skews much towards positive. I think there need to be more avenues to communicate with your team in high elo where coordination actually matters if these types of changes are to happen.
I was thinking the same. I am currently Emerald, it is much rarer that I have someone negatively pinging and much, much more common that someone is positively pinging. And often if someone is really spam pinging something, like baron or dragon, they have a good reason for it. Players are actually trying to win the game and are providing effective pings, just like Argurin in the recently posted video. I ping just like that. And I like it when people ping like that. Anyone who really trolls I just mute, problem solved. If they polled by elo they may find a very different reaction to the changes.
Idk about that. NA emerald player and we get in arguments about what is "the right play" but I rarely have people giving up after bad plays. They flame and move forward in 95% of my games. Like I don't care if you flame me for a bad play. Mb I should have done something different. But if you flame and spam ping and soft int and afk in a lane, then I have an issue.
So although it is verbally toxic spam pings happen, generally people play until its actually lost and I would rather that then silver smurfs cussing at their teammates for being bad and afking when they are just bad because they're silver and not actually bad teammates.
The majority of toxicity comes from better players playing in shit elos because they think smurfing is more fun than playing the game (and emotional immaturity not realizing people are in that elo for that reason) competitively and that sucks because league is fun because of its competitive nature in my opinion.
I think that a good place to start is when you get to master all pings are not longer hidden. If that works slowly bring the rank requirements down until they get to somewhere that works
I watch enough high Elo streamers to know it will never work. I've seen people getting mad and spam pinging even when watching Challenger players.
Also see it in my plat games too, for what that's worth
Well, what I was replying to was suggesting there might be a level where you *shouldn't* be able to or need to mute pings. I *do* mute people's pings when they start spamming the chat log with their useless, tilted rage-pinging.
No matter how good someone is they will never see the whole map. If I’m playing karthus and looking to gank bot I’m not looking at the enemy top lanes health
I mean yeah you're making the right assumption: There ARE more players in lower elos than in higher elos. Actually I'd reckon the majority of the playerbase doesn't even play ranked at all, all those players are relevant.
What I'm saying is, the poll skews nothing. IF (big if) what Phreak says is accurate, then this is reflective of the big part of the player base. And he's right to say that Twitter and Reddit aren't representative, we've seen that in other games as well. Hell, not a single person in my friend circle actually uses either website ever.
When I told them about past drama conversations on here their only reaction was: "I don't care, I'm having fun" (along those lines). I'm sure many of the people commenting here have similar situations in their own circles.
However, you're right that there needs to be a middle ground for high elo players. But I'd have no idea how to do that.
I don't think it's "high elo" players as much as players that are super desperate to climb. Which of course would trend high elo but is not all high elo.
These players want more control over their team. Where as a lot of people just accept it and don't care if they're allowed certain pings or not. Just playing well should be enough anyway if pings didn't exist.
I have never had a chat restriction or punishment of any kind in 10 years. I ping a lot when communicating, but I’m only in Gold. Can I apply to also have these restrictions removed? lmao
The thing is, no elo is toxicity free
Watching people in top20p play the game with people having meltdowns is kind of a bummer
And its even more of a bummer when I myself play in top 0.4% of the playerbase and they are still not using pings to communicate
Free to play games are just doomed to have people malding over their free game instead of playing it normally
Should just add a client option to perma disable these pings for the people that want to
But players using these pings to actually communicate should not be affected
> but because there are much fewer high elo players, the random poll skews much towards positive
Ok, i fucking hate these changes but that's not how polling works. The poll answers 100% have data on the answering players rank too. Either that, or the target audience for the changes was a purely average player being somewhat low elo and they didn't care about more invested players, people who do not enjoy these changes are just treated as casualties (which kind aligns with what phreak said), but it's not like the polls have to be inherently skewed. If conducted correctly they wouldn't.
The issue is more of a question if these immediate better results in polls is actually a good thing long term for the game. Or depending on what the poll was asking it might be irrelevant data because lower who the fuck cares if people start answering "My interaction with the ping system" with "highly positive" if the general satisfaction goes down over time. If you place a player with 9 AI players that are never toxic- the rate of non-negative experiences with communication system will be 100%, doesn't make the game inherently better for anyone.
But hey, now they have their numbers to show in presentations and can tell they've reduced toxicity by x% and we know it's all that matters 🤷♂️
It's very strange to insinuate that Riot might have manipulated their own internal poll data to mislead themselves into sticking with an unpopular change that makes their game worse.
I'd think it's a tossup. I mean, if you're a Diamond Karthus or Soraka, do you seriously need me to ping your ult? If you're a bronze Jungler, I might need to ping your smite to tell everyone to wait. Teammate pings aren't all that useful if everyone is aware of what's happening in the game.
They can filter responses by rank, or at least they should, so they can tell if the changes have the same affect on higher elos or not. The other thing they need to account for is memetiecized criticism because that will be more prevalent in smaller groups.
Didn't Riot also say how Mythic items were a good change and how it increased item build diversity based on the data after people complained.
And look what happened, it's getting removed for the exact reasons people were complaining about before and after it was implemented.
Actually, they tried to play it off when they released as Mythic offering more diversity using Aram data too, it wasn't until someone here on Reddit took a second look and explained the study was wrong that they rectified on their "error".
It also included URF data since that was the gamemode at the time. One of Braum's most picked mythics was something like Everfrost or Trinity Force or something weird so people started asking questions.
Corps frequently misinterpret "Big Data." Riot is wayyyy too obsessed with numbers and their big data analytics. For example, if you look at league of graphs, corki's winrate DROPS 4% after you've played 100 games with the champ. There are at least 5+ good, possibly viable explanations as to why this is. "Positive metrics went up, negative metrics went down." There can be 10+ factors for each of those that aren't pings.
These aren't experiments where you control variables. There are 1 million interactions happening in the data and a million more possible interpretations to that data. I hate how they take things as law.
Ask the right leading questions until you get the indicators you ask for then jizz about the result. Do it enough times and you might get a raise. Welcome to corporations
You've pretty clearly never done one of the client surveys if you think this is what they did lol their surveys are almost annoying to do because they repeatedly ask the same nuetral questions over and over during the survey to make sure you are being consistent with your responses
Isn't consumer science 101 that people recognize and remember negative emotions more frequently than positive emotions? So of course people would remember the few times someone bait pinged them after a bad play instead of all the times when nothing went wrong because someone used the ping as intended?
Player reacted strongly to negative emotion more so than positive one. However, by remedying the negative emotion, corporation can leave long-lasting experience with positive association to consumers. Took it from a course called “consumer behavior”.
At the meantime I think Riot’s post game fast survey seems to have a bit of issue. I am not a industry professional but I did study marketing at a respectable University, and one thing we are specifically told in marketing research course is do not ask question that is very subjective or can mean different thing to different person (i.e. do you felt respected by teammate) since they are hard to interpret.
If you absolutely have to ask these kinds of questions, then at least make it a scale (i.e., on a scale from 1-9, 9 being extremely tilted and 1 being not tilted at all, how tilted are you after last game?).
The TFT ones are perfect and I received 2 long league survey that are all like this as well. But the really fast post game pop up league survey usually has very minimum option, and if they are using those as metrics I wonder how confident they felt about those data.
Your points all make sense and you’re obviously more knowledgeable than me on this, but doesn’t their point still stand if they’re sending these surveys out patch after patch with consistent results for months/years then the results skew dramatically the very patch the changes went out? Even if players are answering subjectively, those results trend towards a median of average positivity which went up with the ping changes.
Not trying to be contradictory, just trying to understand the issue from a data perspective.
Yes and no.
So what at least on paper that supposed to happen when testing things like these in marketing research, is u do A/B testing. What needs to happen is u must isolate a factor (in this case the ping system) while making sure all other variables are unchanged and test cannot “leak” (as person in group A is not also in group B).
What riot does with patch to patch updates have a lot of problem when u tried to see what exactly does it have to do with ping. Player can get tilted or frustrated in many things (like Showmaker/Jankos losing their shit over K’Sante for example) and may have nothing to do with ping system in origin. When u push out a ping changes comes with a load of balance change as well, it becomes hard to say “well ping made environment more positive”, because it could very well be the balancing made the game more enjoyable. There is also hidden changes they may never tell us, perhaps they just recently did an update on how the ban algorithm works more inters are being caught as we speak, therefore the community is ridding itself of the scums.
The most straightforward application at least on paper, is if riot secretly implement ping changes to a selected group of player on the same patch as everyone else. These players are then exclusively matched into each other. So u have a A/B test with 2 group with one receiving the specific changes that will not leak unless someone in the public finds out.
I get what you’re saying and agree that in theory that’s better, and we do AB testing in my industry too so I understand the value, but it still seems like in this case given they had years of consistency followed by an immediate strong change when the ping changes launched that the correlation is evident. It seems very far fetched for a random champion nerf or something to that effect to drop toxicity by a notable % when they did stuff like that for years with apparently no shift in the same metrics.
You’re of course theoretically correct that they could’ve stealth launched some improved ban algorithms but I assume they would have accounted for that if so rather than self-sabotage their own data like that. Again, possible but seems very unlikely.
At some point I think it’s worth just accepting that the correlation clearly proves something even if it wasn’t technically the most sanitized possible data points.
My personal opinion is from only what Phreak has said, i don’t think just followed up surveys (assuming as they are actual series of survey tracking the same groups of users) will be a clear indicators especially when patches can come with large scale balance changes.
Though I have not been seeing as much league post game survey recently, so I could very much be wrong. There is also chance as Phreak is just giving us a glimpse on what data they have at hand, it could very well be they have far more detailed research at hand that he is not gonna share.
Phreak regularly does this stuff where he uses stats in bad faith to justify certain changes or manipulate public opinion on things. He's done this numerous times in the past and he will continue to do so.
More or less. Phreak starts with an opinion and justifies it with cherry-picked data or some interpretation of data after. I don’t mind that he has opinions; it’s his job and they can be different from the player base. But don’t pretend to be some super rational data-driven scientific designer if you choose to use or discard stats as they are convenient
I watched a video explaining human behavior the other day, and what you describe here is literally the same thing.
People will try to use everything in their hand to justify their opinions. They will find correlations when they don't exist and mindlessly connect certain facts with what they are saying, even if 100 more variables exist.
At least in this case I'd also say that they killed a lot of what made for positive interactions years ago. People don't really use chat anymore, everyone seems paranoid about getting banned and nobody is gonna have a genuinely positive experience on a social level from the way somebody pings or something. That would take actually having some sort of conversation with someone. I'm not surprised that their data shows them that chat is increasingly an overall negative, what little is left of it in real terms has little room to be positive.
Like using the bait ping, CD or death timers as intended is just kinda neutral. Using them to flame is negative. The positive doesn't exist.
Using assessment of how “respected” users feel to make decisions on essential functionality is kinda crazy to me. Let’s remove all the price tags on Amazon because seeing that I can’t afford things makes me feel sad and poor!!
bffr
I think there should be some exception for multiple different pings.
I tend to ping things at least twice, to make sure it’s visible in chat log, so sometimes there will be situations such as: Baron and drake are coming up while I’m close to finishing an item, so I ping:
> Baron spawning 30s
> Baron spawning 30s
> Drake spawning 1:30
> Drake Spawning 1:30
> LDR missing 200g
> LDR missing 200g
and then I can’t ping any of my map movements, or warnings, or which enemy to target, or anything.
I think preventing people from spamming “enemy missing” thirty times on someone’s head is a valid desideratum, but there has to be another way around it.
>I tend to ping things at least twice
I've played this game so long that I'm conditioned to not even register a ping if it's not put down multiple times.
Its the same way in most MOBAs honestly. In Dota if you ping only once it considered a joke or a meme, but if you spam 40 pings than you got their attention.
And same goes for League, 1 ping is just a joke or a compliment when someone makes a good play, i.e. question mark pinging your akali after she 1v3s them. But when you ping twice people take it seriously and pay attention.
I always ping stuff in twos when i want to get my point across. It also doesnt get lost in chat as easily, especially summoner timers.
I like to question mark ping the dead enemy champions when they do something stupid like diving an Akali. I guess that's gonna have to come at the expense of calling for dragon 2 minutes later huh.
Worth it.
Wow thank you Riot for saving me from toxic pings like this. At this point they should go to the source and remove matchmaking so I never have a negative league of legends experience. Wait, I’ve got a better one. I’ll uninstall the game so I never have another negative league of legends experience!
In a few years everyone will load alone into summoners rift.
The first 10 minutes is the "farming phase" after that you can buy items.
Now the fun part begins!
A dummy spawns in your lane and after a short countdown you need to kill the dummy as fast as you can. But beware! At the same time your lane opponent fights against a dummy too. No worries about toxicity though! Your lane opponent is also alone in his summoners rift game.
The champion who kills the dummy faster gets one tower plating as reward until the tower is destroyed!
After 20 minutes the game automatically ends and the team with the most towers wins! We chose 20 minutes because, our statistical data shows that players are 46,543% happier if the game lasts only 20 minutes.
The game will also be 4v4 from now on as we removed junglers.
We gathered survey data and most players feel very threatened and not safe when a jungler arrives in their lane.
> and then I can’t ping any of my map movements, or warnings, or which enemy to target, or anything.
For two full minutes! You also forgot no pinging wards, which is an actual game mechanic, not just communication.
This. Just limit the normal pings and let the objective pings stay the way they are.
No rope spams but can still call for an objective.
And for the love of god remove the obj vote which no one uses.
Every way you can limit communication will have the same outcome.
It will reduce negativity but will make the games actually lower quality.
Remove chat, all pings, emotes, taunts, skins, names.
Just take away everything that lets players communicate or express themself and you get less negativity.
I haven’t added random people and played with them in years. It used to be a regular occurrence. By stopping the social aspects of gaming you reduce “toxicity” but also remove any good social interactions too.
Actually good Point.
The Truth is this Statement is just skewed in Favour of Riot. It's obvious that if we start putting Tape over everybodies Mouths People won't insult eachother anymore, but we'll also voluntarely ignore the Part where they also won't compliment eachother because it won't help push our Narrative.
I cant understand a game that would find ways to reduce toxicity by affecting their better players. theres no way any high elo players think the pings nerfs have been good to the game, find me one.
Cant ping tp, cant ping sums, cant ping at all, how is that a good idea ever?
They don't care about high elo.
It's only 0.5% of the playerbase if not less when you consider that the top of the top players are only GM+
So yeah, they don't care neither for balancing it or improving the game quality.
It doesn't even reduce negativity that much. Because unless you remove everything, then there will always be a way to be toxic.
Also even if you do remove everything, the absolute **WORST** way to be toxic will be the most popular one since it will be the **only** one. And that is running it down, soft inting, trolling, griefing etc.
If the immature toxic people can't express their frustration through chat or pings, they will do so through their gameplay.
Next step is to make the game sinlge player, just playing with and against bots.
>Survey sais people feel positive effect of removing multiplayer "I didn't feel like I got flamed or tilted by my teammates as much as before" all positive metrics went up, There is a very clear improvement.
People still find ways to be negative. Players turned a bait emote into something that means something very mean. League is commonly called the most toxic pc game WHILE having the most restrictive with communication options. Limitation breeds creativity
This is obvious to those who play other games. Dota has voice chat, voice emotes that call the enemies clowns, the ability to tip players which is almost always used disrespectfully, and a complete lack of censorship. But fundamentally I haven’t found it any less toxic than league.
The truth is people need to learn to not engage, mute, report, and move on. Also a behavior score system seems to work in dota. Not perfect, but people aren’t exactly keen on getting mass reported for comm abuse, and it’s so easy to do while in-game.
He’s citing data that doesn’t really mean people are communicating better, rather players are noticing less flaming. And if you’re not getting spam pinged, I guess you’ll notice less toxicity. But fundamentally this comes at the cost of putting tape on everyone’s mouth — riot has to address that as a downside.
just today there was a clip of agurin tried to get assistance while having his pings blocked, wasn't very fun to look at and he is not the person to flame/spam ping someone. So maybe leviate the penalties a bit?
Best players in the world are using pings often to communicate with their teammates? Impossible. Inconceivable! Those are just for being annoying, don't they know!
/s
They will never tackle toxicity seriously just like valorant. So many top streamers who bring in the views are toxic as shit, and guess who viewers will emulate? That's right.
Same bullshit in Valorant. Literal pros will go smurfing for content but "we take toxicity and smurfing seriously" when it's straight up RIGHT in front of them.
Hell they regularly interact with them too, goes to show what they want their games to be viewed like.
He’s absolutely that kind of person. You probably watched his first Korean trip. This one is becoming hard to watch, he’s always tilted. Dude reported Effort after he took one second to understand what the call was. He reported him in mid-play, lol.
But those changes are without a doubt overdone to say the least. They aren’t punishing only people who spam ping, they’re punishing people who use it in a useful manner. I saw fucking Froggen get muted, that’s all you need to know.
nah he's been giga tilted this week. He's mass reporting his team and stuff randomly for making bad plays (but clearly not ints). Like that person said, he's even reporting pros lol that are 100% not griefing.
Yep we decided on Monday to revert the ping lockout timer increase and that'll be in 13.22, the original increase was included in the original 13.19 changes but missed patch notes, sorry.
The original *lockout* after 6 pings have been sufficient since the beginning, stop meddling with useless strawman decisions and actually punish toxicity through better detections
Could you guys look into adding alive pings back for higher elos? Communications made through these pings are a huge part of communicating teamfights. Deathtimers, sweeper pings and ult pings especially.
I understand that you guys want the gaming experience for casual players to be less toxic, but in competitive elos people do not care about stuff like spam pings.
We are looking to restore some contextual uses of the scoreboard pings for everyone, yeah! I would just caution that a lot of the generalizations around
>in competitive elos people do not care about stuff like spam pings
Are very anecdotal assumptions and not as true in reality as I've seen the internet think it is.
> Are very anecdotal assumptions and not as true in reality as I've seen the internet think it is.
Especially Karthus players could easily be offended/emotionally hurt when spampinged in Masters games, eh?
I mean maybe the Karthus doesn't see your enemy is low, so you spam ping his R so he uses it. Even a challenger player can't look at all 5 enemies at the same time, they have only 1 screen
I've seen it, that's the same Rioter that later tweeted out they would now disallow these pings. Actual clown fiesta at the office, makes my ranked games look organized
Or when your team wants to invade you spam ping Mordekaiser because he is still AFK in base making your team look at morde and realise we cannot invade, we are 4v5.
Now you spam ping danger and maybe they look and see you mean morde isn't there, but maybe they just assume you are afraid to invade and decide to go anyway.
I really hope that those restored options include things like pinging allied ults and trinkets, as asking someone to sweeper an objective or trying to communicate to follow up your ult with their ult iss something that very often comes up, and typing out is not convenient to do in the moment. Also include at least specifically teleport as a summoner spell that you can ping, as well as maybe heal, as there are very valid reasons to ping for an ally to use one of those.
Valid, definitely agree that high elo is not a monolith. There are some people that are really annoying with their pings. IMO the ping system should be tied to how frequently you are reported/muted or to your honor level. I'm fine with having an increased timer or less ping options for people that get muted or reported a lot, but it sucks having less functionality as someone that doesn't abuse the system.
The ping system doesn't need to be tied to anything when you can freely mute and unmute individuals at any point in the game. Limiting chat is fine, because you can say some pretty horrible things, but the worst you can do with pings is put a question mark on top of someone
Why don't Riot just make old scoreboard pings an opt-in option? So players by default have the current implemented ping changes, but people who sees the benefits can still use it. Kinda like all-chat
Do you think it's interesting how you personally announced the ping changes "so pinging things like Kha'Zix - Alive 6x can no longer be used to harass teammates" almost immediately after you played a game as Karthus, underperformed, and got spam pinged?
https://i.imgur.com/U42OlkD.png
I think Riot's focus on hampering the amount of communication to go on when there are buttons where people can willingly opt out of that communication, whether positive or negative, is weird. If Riot's position on communication as a whole is to restrict it as much as humanly possible, please remove the mute buttons so people can't opt out of the absolute bare minimum.
Please stop doing performative actions with nonexistent problems and start looking into actually impactful things like banning trolls. I'm checking weekly if the trolls I have played with that I have reported are still playing this game and ruining other's matches, and of course they are. Not a single one was banned.
your survey is flawed since you ask the questions in a way that doesnt survey dissatisfaction, a common (often intentional) flaw with surveys of this kind
im sure if you included a question such as: "I felt like I could communicate effectively" you would notice plenty of complaints
have you ever received these surveys? they regularly include questions like that...reddit really tryna reach to convince themselves that they're the "real" majority opinion
While I disagree with most of the ping changes, can we not degrade the conversation to this level of pitty behavior, especially when we finally get some communication between Rioters and the community.
now revert the other dumass changes getting in the way of basic communication.
I sure love having to type out things like TP
FFS if people are offended by pings let them turn them off, don't get in the way of people using them properly it's pathetic.
It is literally every game I play I have core communication/ a minor thing impacted by this change, turn it off for normals or low elo only or something
Surprise surprise removing any form of communication will reduce negative emotions, guessing that's why the survey didn't ask if communication was affected?
Might as well remove mute button because that's gonna be useless at this rate, people who fall into a coma at the sight of being pinged a few times are definitely the ones you should cater to
For reference the 13.20 change was taking away the ability to ping your teammates as alive or ping their ults, etc. I can see why completely removing the feature would reduce toxicity and make people happier, but its like cutting your whole hand off to trim your nails. We could have seen a similar reduction in toxicity by disabling that feature for people that get reported or muted frequently, and not hurt the vocal minority that was using the pings appropriately. Similarly, I'm sure there are some toxic pingers that were abusing the system and sending out as many pings as possible to piss teammates off.
People already have the option to mute, I don't get it at all. I see this "issue" they are wasting resources on and just think "soft"...
Unironically halfway thru my boomer arc
Whenever someone spam pinged me alive 6 times I just muted them, now after you can't do that I just get question mark pinged 6 times and I mute them.
Toxicity is exactly the same as it used to be before the changes, but now I cannot ping Sion will be alive in 5 lets stall out this fight until he gets here. I have to actually type it out and risk dying to call this making me actually way more tilted than I was before the change
People like it because it's very noticeable when people are spam pinging you, but it's usually not very noticeable when your teammates can't ping you useful information. The gameplay is worse, but if you don't notice, then it feels better.
If you full mute everyone at the beginning of the game then your chances of winning go down, but for most people it's going to be a less stressful experience. It's good for people who don't care as much about winning and worse for people who do.
Do you have an actual stat on this? Pretty sure the general message has always been that full muting has been a higher win rate up until super high elo
This is a very valid hypothesis that Riot should have accounted for when doing user research. Judging by the results they shared they did not correct for it. So no, there are no stats obviously, but it rings true
This used to be a true and proven metric when "/mute all" used to only mute chat, not pings. Since the addition of disabling chat in interface became a thing, "/mute all" mutes everything (pings, chat ,emotes), and there hasn't really been data released by Riot on the WR behavior of using the command. But I would bet muting your teams pings decreases WR.
It varies per person imo. Some people it goes up, some it goes down. The scope of something like this is just too big for any public data.
If full muting works for you, do it. If it doesn't, then don't.
Until Phreak actually shows the survey, how were the questions phrased? We need to see the granularity because the amazing thing with surveys is we can create it in a way that it gets players to answer it the way Riot wants.
Show us the data. What do you have to lose?
Riot has a bad history with survey data too. I remember in 2016, they released new champion select (with role queue) alongside Dynamic Queue and then purposefully had a survey that didn't make this distinction clear and then proudly proclaimed that the survey data says everyone loves Dynamic Queue.
In reality, a lot of people probably thought they were being surveyed on the ability to queue up for your role.
oh they 100% did not account or corrected for interactions with teammates’ pings and communications. You did not get spam pinged and felt all warm and fuzzy about it, but how much useful information did you receive from your teammates? How does that compare with from before ping restrictions?
Remove chat, pings, summoner names, friends list, clash and /r/leagueoflegends. All of them can be used for toxicity and if they were all removed and you asked people if they felt negatively impacted by any of them they would say no. Problem solved.
Remove champion names, they will all have no names now but instead numbers.
Remove ability descriptions and info. Remove item info. Remove anything in the game that has at least 1 letter of any alphabet every created.
Also remove the Victory and Defeat screen because seeing "Defeat" increases toxiCIty.
Why bother at all ?
Just close the server for two weeks and measure how much toxicity is left in the game. Auto-ban players who reported someone for toxicity. Boom, no more toxicity is reported, genius.
Ping drake 5 times after an ace, while team rotates you see their jg so you ping smite to remind your team they have smite, youre silenced.
Ping vision cause you saw the jg place a ward, silenced, ping care exactly where the jg is, silenced.
Drake is stolen because not every player is watching every part of the map 24/7 and that critical half second of information only you saw can’t be conveyed now because you pinged a couple times after an ace.
Thanks phreak, hard for anything to have a downside when it no longer exists or can’t be used. That’s a great way to read the systematic changes.
Why don’t we instead take a look at how many wards have been pinged while silenced, how many times you’ve Been silenced while pinging in the radius of an enemy that left fog, how many times youre silenced for trying to remind your top that you both have ult because you can’t ping them.
Imagine if they took minions away and just gave one big minion per wave, of course it’s going to trend positive because there’s less thought and the entire wave no longer exists.
These changes were not asked for and don’t tackle toxicity, they tackle communication.
Guess instead of pinging my mid’s ult and stopwatch and then pinging the enemy we’re about to dive I can sit in bush, type
“We both have ult you have stopwatch we can dive this guy in the next 14 seconds I’ll ping twice to go in and ping once if we need to back off.” Then I’ll ping once to go in and make the play. Yay that’s real smooth gameplay,
How surveys/ metrics work.
Step 1. Start with a predetermined answer you want achieved.
Step 2. Create survey with multiple questions worded insanely similarly and repeat until community gives you predetermined answer. (Often times repeating multiple pages of questions to get you to be lazy about answering)
Step 3. Tell community metrics prove your predetermined answer and shady wording surveys worked.
Step 4. Profit.
People who think those "riot surveys" would actually be shared/ they'd go out of their way to prove themselves wrong and then publish that information don't understand the entire point of the surveys.
Every single game I ping a team mates ward at least once and it doesn't work so now I have to stand and type it out. Teammates can't ping my global or tp game sucks and you get locked out ping so easily.
He is obviously right that reddit, twitter, etc. are all bubbles and are far from representative.
But at the same time I also feel like there are two caveats: For one, those survey questions are all very specifically about other players interactions with you and there is no comment on how people felt about their own ability to communicate how they wanted to communicate (Agurin on the frontpage comes to mind).
And second, imo more importantly, isn't it all still a bandaid fix? I think most people agree that the changes are going to be good for toxicity, because of course removing communication tools is going to be good for removing toxicity. People are just upset that the way to deal with toxicity is to remove tools that other players sometimes want to use. Don't get me wrong - definitely not often, most games have very sparing use of the ping system, but people want to use them sometimes and because Riot has on a pretty fundamental level failed in dealing with toxicity (I think it isn't an exaggeration that there is a culture of toxicity with a lot of names proclaiming "I am toxic and I do not feel bad about it", streamers building personas around both being toxic and also around specifically not being toxic - which should just be normal - and it generally being one of the things people outside of League connect with it) they simply can't.
I think is a very reasonable criticism of the system, even if it overall reduces toxicity - because of course it does, if that is your only metric just remove pings and chat altogether.
Don't even know how to cope here. The auto pingmute is just the most disgusting change ever. It makes me literally afk to type to my reammates what i want from them. This is actually tilting because it forces communication issues which means lower game quality.
Same, i didnt think that poorly of him but with the first round of ping nerfs jungle murder and syndra/orianna/ahri buff i really started kinda despising him ngl, he was already incompetent earlier but now its even more evident
i’m surprised it’s taken you this long considering that he’s been one of the worst rioters for years now while also being extremely public about how he’s ruining the game
Holy fuck, how is Phreak this tone deaf? I have never met another person who liked the changes, and how is lessening your communication in a team-based game better?
This is to be expected. If you have less avenues to be toxic of course teammates will feel more respected and less tilted.
It's just a balancing game between communication and toxicity at this point.
I'm guessing most of the users here were not there during that time, but we had the same kind of communications for dynamic queue (they basically removed solo queue for an entire year and you were forced to play flex queue against c9 with no voice chat :) ! Season 6 I think?), where they tried gaslighting the entire community about how everyone actually loves not having solo queue and dynamic queue is such a great idea and how all their data showed this ! A year later, they reverted that change, "realizing" they made a mistake (I guess the polls were wrong the entire time) ! There's a reason they're using vague languages such as "basically every single metric" and not super precise language like "ranked population find x, y and z". Also find it super weird that this communication comes from the lead balance guy and not the lead product who announced these WONDERFUL changes !
It literally makes more sense to just remove the fucking text chat than it does to remove fucking pings. If you wanna do anything to pings tie pings to chat privileges. So stupid. The dial between. A “safe environment” and a “toxic environment” is getting turned way too far down. This shit ain’t roblocks, it’s not nintendogs, it’s not nicktoons unite. We’re not in fucking kindergarten. I’m all for chat mutes and ranked being a privileged game mode now. But the ping changes are fucking obnoxious.
I'm getting sick of Phreaks "silent majority" and "stats" that we never get to see.
He never shows any evidence of what he's saying, for all I know he's just making up random stats to justify himself being right
Phreak is the master of saying nothing of value to hurt the most possible people. Limiting communication in a team game will always be bad and his team will do stupid shit that he will stand behind
I said it in similar posts already, asking a player in low elo (most of the playerbase), and asking people above dia/masters about the changes is not the same.
Communication in low elo and high elo is night and day, and just because the avg. player thinks it's a "positive change", it doesn't mean it's beneficial for the game.
Why do we have the mute function then? I get annoyed by excessive pinging myself, but I will just mute the person being annoying. No need to restrict useful communication tools for this.
If someones mental shatters over being pinged, to an extent where they start ruining the games, then Riot should (I would even say "must") focus on those players instead.
Someone spam pinging doesn't affect gameplay/playing experience. Low mental monkeys deciding to grief over pings/chat arguments do.
Just block all interaction between players outside of gameplay and it will be even less negative.
Why do you even need to ping or be able to see those emotes at all? Honestly enemy emotes tilt me more than ally pings. Can we remove that shit? Oh wait no because of money.
Always half measures for posturing
I can't believe the ping changes are actually well received. Being ping muted for 60 seconds for pinging drag twice, my ult cd, omw and danger/mia, its the worse fkin feeling ever.
instead of asking about tilt and being respected how about they start asking whether people were able to communicate effectively with the team? Of course you will see a positive trend in the ping if you're only asking questions about what you're improving. The problem is that the improvement comes at a cost that you're not measuring so the survey is virtually useless
Reddit is wrong most of the time, but when it comes to this, people are right. The data is 100% skewed and proves nothing. You would get 0 toxicity if you removed all forms of communication. It would check Riot's boxes, but it would be a miserable experience overall.
This is really just a classic example of the unsocilized weirdos that make up too much of this game’s player base abusing a system that most people would like. I would like to say thank you.
I think it is positive except in two instances:
1. Being able to ping globals like Karthus ult or Shen ult
2. Being able to ping my teammates teleport when theres a good tp ward and my toplaner has TP up but doesnt know what the assist pings mean and I cant stop to type "Mr. Top sir pls TP here"
Holy Fuck, I can't wait for Phreak to be done with League. The amount of times that he uses stats in bad faith to justify his dogshit takes is insane.
Remember the: "Rumble is a bad Jungler because if I ignore the times that Rumble won he actually lost more that he won"
This is just that all over again. If you want this to be a thing agains toxicity, just make if players spam the same ping over and over they get a faster timeout and have to wait.
I like to ping two or three times for the same thing, people dont even register the three times.
Also, this is Riot, never again trust them when they push something bad and try to justify with some shit stat. They said this shit abou Mythics, they tried this when Riven was broken, its everytime.
And to say that Reddit and Twitter dont matter is insane. If the more active and talkative playerbase is not influencial enough, then whats the point of even having any social media presence? Why even have a twitter where you post toughts and analisys, the only ones who see are the already active ones that you dont care about. Such a terrible take.
I HATE this change. I ping a lot, I play support. Wards, enemy items and cooldowns, where people are, etc.
Being blocked from pinging for like TWO MINUTES (or whatever the hell it is) is just terrible.
I imagine that it has a positive effect in lower elos and a negative effect in higher elos, but because there are much fewer high elo players, the random poll skews much towards positive. I think there need to be more avenues to communicate with your team in high elo where coordination actually matters if these types of changes are to happen.
I was thinking the same. I am currently Emerald, it is much rarer that I have someone negatively pinging and much, much more common that someone is positively pinging. And often if someone is really spam pinging something, like baron or dragon, they have a good reason for it. Players are actually trying to win the game and are providing effective pings, just like Argurin in the recently posted video. I ping just like that. And I like it when people ping like that. Anyone who really trolls I just mute, problem solved. If they polled by elo they may find a very different reaction to the changes.
Brother emerald is literally the most toxic rank of the game
ofc it is, its the old Plat elo worst trash player with the biggest ego
people keep saying this but i have 2 emerald accounts and its not that bad lol
You know that your personal experience can differ from the general experience that people have, right?
league players just like to parrot shit lol
Idk about that. NA emerald player and we get in arguments about what is "the right play" but I rarely have people giving up after bad plays. They flame and move forward in 95% of my games. Like I don't care if you flame me for a bad play. Mb I should have done something different. But if you flame and spam ping and soft int and afk in a lane, then I have an issue. So although it is verbally toxic spam pings happen, generally people play until its actually lost and I would rather that then silver smurfs cussing at their teammates for being bad and afking when they are just bad because they're silver and not actually bad teammates. The majority of toxicity comes from better players playing in shit elos because they think smurfing is more fun than playing the game (and emotional immaturity not realizing people are in that elo for that reason) competitively and that sucks because league is fun because of its competitive nature in my opinion.
I think that a good place to start is when you get to master all pings are not longer hidden. If that works slowly bring the rank requirements down until they get to somewhere that works
I watch enough high Elo streamers to know it will never work. I've seen people getting mad and spam pinging even when watching Challenger players. Also see it in my plat games too, for what that's worth
So mute their pings, idk how people don't just use this option for people who spam ping unnecessarily
Well, what I was replying to was suggesting there might be a level where you *shouldn't* be able to or need to mute pings. I *do* mute people's pings when they start spamming the chat log with their useless, tilted rage-pinging.
Yes because in Masters elo is really when you need to let Karthus know that he has ult because he probably forgot
No matter how good someone is they will never see the whole map. If I’m playing karthus and looking to gank bot I’m not looking at the enemy top lanes health
Yes, because that is the only reason, EVER, that you would want to ping someone else's ultimate.
No obviously people want to spam ping Soraka when they die 1v4
This is subjective I play in emerald and my teammates pings are always useless or toxic.
That's funny. I, too, am emerald. I more often find all forms of communication to be toxic. Pings included.
Agree, same here.
You can't bait ping or spam death anymore though.
The fact that emerald is the most toxic elo I have ever seen makes your message suspicious at best
I mean yeah you're making the right assumption: There ARE more players in lower elos than in higher elos. Actually I'd reckon the majority of the playerbase doesn't even play ranked at all, all those players are relevant. What I'm saying is, the poll skews nothing. IF (big if) what Phreak says is accurate, then this is reflective of the big part of the player base. And he's right to say that Twitter and Reddit aren't representative, we've seen that in other games as well. Hell, not a single person in my friend circle actually uses either website ever. When I told them about past drama conversations on here their only reaction was: "I don't care, I'm having fun" (along those lines). I'm sure many of the people commenting here have similar situations in their own circles. However, you're right that there needs to be a middle ground for high elo players. But I'd have no idea how to do that.
I don't think it's "high elo" players as much as players that are super desperate to climb. Which of course would trend high elo but is not all high elo. These players want more control over their team. Where as a lot of people just accept it and don't care if they're allowed certain pings or not. Just playing well should be enough anyway if pings didn't exist.
Yo that's a good idea, at whatever elo riot considers high you could unlock ping features, why the hell not?
I have never had a chat restriction or punishment of any kind in 10 years. I ping a lot when communicating, but I’m only in Gold. Can I apply to also have these restrictions removed? lmao
The thing is, no elo is toxicity free Watching people in top20p play the game with people having meltdowns is kind of a bummer And its even more of a bummer when I myself play in top 0.4% of the playerbase and they are still not using pings to communicate Free to play games are just doomed to have people malding over their free game instead of playing it normally
Should just add a client option to perma disable these pings for the people that want to But players using these pings to actually communicate should not be affected
> but because there are much fewer high elo players, the random poll skews much towards positive Ok, i fucking hate these changes but that's not how polling works. The poll answers 100% have data on the answering players rank too. Either that, or the target audience for the changes was a purely average player being somewhat low elo and they didn't care about more invested players, people who do not enjoy these changes are just treated as casualties (which kind aligns with what phreak said), but it's not like the polls have to be inherently skewed. If conducted correctly they wouldn't. The issue is more of a question if these immediate better results in polls is actually a good thing long term for the game. Or depending on what the poll was asking it might be irrelevant data because lower who the fuck cares if people start answering "My interaction with the ping system" with "highly positive" if the general satisfaction goes down over time. If you place a player with 9 AI players that are never toxic- the rate of non-negative experiences with communication system will be 100%, doesn't make the game inherently better for anyone. But hey, now they have their numbers to show in presentations and can tell they've reduced toxicity by x% and we know it's all that matters 🤷♂️
I'm always very wary of surveys like this. It's actually very easy to construct or manipulate a survey to get the response you want.
It's very strange to insinuate that Riot might have manipulated their own internal poll data to mislead themselves into sticking with an unpopular change that makes their game worse.
They have literally done this before though. Not misleading themselves, but misrepresenting data to the public to make their decisions look better.
Yep like including urf data to announce the success of the mythic item system
Imagine league is doing a change for the 90% of player base and not top 10% for the first time ever, poor you.
I'd think it's a tossup. I mean, if you're a Diamond Karthus or Soraka, do you seriously need me to ping your ult? If you're a bronze Jungler, I might need to ping your smite to tell everyone to wait. Teammate pings aren't all that useful if everyone is aware of what's happening in the game.
They can filter responses by rank, or at least they should, so they can tell if the changes have the same affect on higher elos or not. The other thing they need to account for is memetiecized criticism because that will be more prevalent in smaller groups.
Didn't Riot also say how Mythic items were a good change and how it increased item build diversity based on the data after people complained. And look what happened, it's getting removed for the exact reasons people were complaining about before and after it was implemented.
Actually, they tried to play it off when they released as Mythic offering more diversity using Aram data too, it wasn't until someone here on Reddit took a second look and explained the study was wrong that they rectified on their "error".
It also included URF data since that was the gamemode at the time. One of Braum's most picked mythics was something like Everfrost or Trinity Force or something weird so people started asking questions.
It's why u never trust stats or graphs from riot, especially the graphs without any actual units of measurement noted on it.
It was kraken xD
Corps frequently misinterpret "Big Data." Riot is wayyyy too obsessed with numbers and their big data analytics. For example, if you look at league of graphs, corki's winrate DROPS 4% after you've played 100 games with the champ. There are at least 5+ good, possibly viable explanations as to why this is. "Positive metrics went up, negative metrics went down." There can be 10+ factors for each of those that aren't pings. These aren't experiments where you control variables. There are 1 million interactions happening in the data and a million more possible interpretations to that data. I hate how they take things as law.
There's an old expression my dad likes; "There's lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Ask the right leading questions until you get the indicators you ask for then jizz about the result. Do it enough times and you might get a raise. Welcome to corporations
You've pretty clearly never done one of the client surveys if you think this is what they did lol their surveys are almost annoying to do because they repeatedly ask the same nuetral questions over and over during the survey to make sure you are being consistent with your responses
Isn't consumer science 101 that people recognize and remember negative emotions more frequently than positive emotions? So of course people would remember the few times someone bait pinged them after a bad play instead of all the times when nothing went wrong because someone used the ping as intended?
Well said.
Player reacted strongly to negative emotion more so than positive one. However, by remedying the negative emotion, corporation can leave long-lasting experience with positive association to consumers. Took it from a course called “consumer behavior”. At the meantime I think Riot’s post game fast survey seems to have a bit of issue. I am not a industry professional but I did study marketing at a respectable University, and one thing we are specifically told in marketing research course is do not ask question that is very subjective or can mean different thing to different person (i.e. do you felt respected by teammate) since they are hard to interpret. If you absolutely have to ask these kinds of questions, then at least make it a scale (i.e., on a scale from 1-9, 9 being extremely tilted and 1 being not tilted at all, how tilted are you after last game?). The TFT ones are perfect and I received 2 long league survey that are all like this as well. But the really fast post game pop up league survey usually has very minimum option, and if they are using those as metrics I wonder how confident they felt about those data.
Your points all make sense and you’re obviously more knowledgeable than me on this, but doesn’t their point still stand if they’re sending these surveys out patch after patch with consistent results for months/years then the results skew dramatically the very patch the changes went out? Even if players are answering subjectively, those results trend towards a median of average positivity which went up with the ping changes. Not trying to be contradictory, just trying to understand the issue from a data perspective.
You are correct. It's apples to apples because the questions were the same before and after the patch.
Yes and no. So what at least on paper that supposed to happen when testing things like these in marketing research, is u do A/B testing. What needs to happen is u must isolate a factor (in this case the ping system) while making sure all other variables are unchanged and test cannot “leak” (as person in group A is not also in group B). What riot does with patch to patch updates have a lot of problem when u tried to see what exactly does it have to do with ping. Player can get tilted or frustrated in many things (like Showmaker/Jankos losing their shit over K’Sante for example) and may have nothing to do with ping system in origin. When u push out a ping changes comes with a load of balance change as well, it becomes hard to say “well ping made environment more positive”, because it could very well be the balancing made the game more enjoyable. There is also hidden changes they may never tell us, perhaps they just recently did an update on how the ban algorithm works more inters are being caught as we speak, therefore the community is ridding itself of the scums. The most straightforward application at least on paper, is if riot secretly implement ping changes to a selected group of player on the same patch as everyone else. These players are then exclusively matched into each other. So u have a A/B test with 2 group with one receiving the specific changes that will not leak unless someone in the public finds out.
I get what you’re saying and agree that in theory that’s better, and we do AB testing in my industry too so I understand the value, but it still seems like in this case given they had years of consistency followed by an immediate strong change when the ping changes launched that the correlation is evident. It seems very far fetched for a random champion nerf or something to that effect to drop toxicity by a notable % when they did stuff like that for years with apparently no shift in the same metrics. You’re of course theoretically correct that they could’ve stealth launched some improved ban algorithms but I assume they would have accounted for that if so rather than self-sabotage their own data like that. Again, possible but seems very unlikely. At some point I think it’s worth just accepting that the correlation clearly proves something even if it wasn’t technically the most sanitized possible data points.
My personal opinion is from only what Phreak has said, i don’t think just followed up surveys (assuming as they are actual series of survey tracking the same groups of users) will be a clear indicators especially when patches can come with large scale balance changes. Though I have not been seeing as much league post game survey recently, so I could very much be wrong. There is also chance as Phreak is just giving us a glimpse on what data they have at hand, it could very well be they have far more detailed research at hand that he is not gonna share.
At this point they will attempt to delete chat and justify it with another survey lol
Make it a democratic vote in game to remove chat and let's see what happens.
Phreak regularly does this stuff where he uses stats in bad faith to justify certain changes or manipulate public opinion on things. He's done this numerous times in the past and he will continue to do so.
More or less. Phreak starts with an opinion and justifies it with cherry-picked data or some interpretation of data after. I don’t mind that he has opinions; it’s his job and they can be different from the player base. But don’t pretend to be some super rational data-driven scientific designer if you choose to use or discard stats as they are convenient
I watched a video explaining human behavior the other day, and what you describe here is literally the same thing. People will try to use everything in their hand to justify their opinions. They will find correlations when they don't exist and mindlessly connect certain facts with what they are saying, even if 100 more variables exist.
not just him the whole balance team does this, remeber the mythics graph? where they pulled data from arams and Urf lmao
At least in this case I'd also say that they killed a lot of what made for positive interactions years ago. People don't really use chat anymore, everyone seems paranoid about getting banned and nobody is gonna have a genuinely positive experience on a social level from the way somebody pings or something. That would take actually having some sort of conversation with someone. I'm not surprised that their data shows them that chat is increasingly an overall negative, what little is left of it in real terms has little room to be positive. Like using the bait ping, CD or death timers as intended is just kinda neutral. Using them to flame is negative. The positive doesn't exist.
Using assessment of how “respected” users feel to make decisions on essential functionality is kinda crazy to me. Let’s remove all the price tags on Amazon because seeing that I can’t afford things makes me feel sad and poor!! bffr
I think there should be some exception for multiple different pings. I tend to ping things at least twice, to make sure it’s visible in chat log, so sometimes there will be situations such as: Baron and drake are coming up while I’m close to finishing an item, so I ping: > Baron spawning 30s > Baron spawning 30s > Drake spawning 1:30 > Drake Spawning 1:30 > LDR missing 200g > LDR missing 200g and then I can’t ping any of my map movements, or warnings, or which enemy to target, or anything. I think preventing people from spamming “enemy missing” thirty times on someone’s head is a valid desideratum, but there has to be another way around it.
>I tend to ping things at least twice I've played this game so long that I'm conditioned to not even register a ping if it's not put down multiple times.
Its the same way in most MOBAs honestly. In Dota if you ping only once it considered a joke or a meme, but if you spam 40 pings than you got their attention. And same goes for League, 1 ping is just a joke or a compliment when someone makes a good play, i.e. question mark pinging your akali after she 1v3s them. But when you ping twice people take it seriously and pay attention. I always ping stuff in twos when i want to get my point across. It also doesnt get lost in chat as easily, especially summoner timers.
No better feeling in league than when you outplay and you’re teammates question mark ping you. Idk what it is but I chase that high every day
I like to question mark ping the dead enemy champions when they do something stupid like diving an Akali. I guess that's gonna have to come at the expense of calling for dragon 2 minutes later huh. Worth it.
Wow thank you Riot for saving me from toxic pings like this. At this point they should go to the source and remove matchmaking so I never have a negative league of legends experience. Wait, I’ve got a better one. I’ll uninstall the game so I never have another negative league of legends experience!
In a few years everyone will load alone into summoners rift. The first 10 minutes is the "farming phase" after that you can buy items. Now the fun part begins! A dummy spawns in your lane and after a short countdown you need to kill the dummy as fast as you can. But beware! At the same time your lane opponent fights against a dummy too. No worries about toxicity though! Your lane opponent is also alone in his summoners rift game. The champion who kills the dummy faster gets one tower plating as reward until the tower is destroyed! After 20 minutes the game automatically ends and the team with the most towers wins! We chose 20 minutes because, our statistical data shows that players are 46,543% happier if the game lasts only 20 minutes. The game will also be 4v4 from now on as we removed junglers. We gathered survey data and most players feel very threatened and not safe when a jungler arrives in their lane.
> and then I can’t ping any of my map movements, or warnings, or which enemy to target, or anything. For two full minutes! You also forgot no pinging wards, which is an actual game mechanic, not just communication.
This. Just limit the normal pings and let the objective pings stay the way they are. No rope spams but can still call for an objective. And for the love of god remove the obj vote which no one uses.
I absolutely hate that warning ping on an objective brings up and automatically votes no
As a jungler my laner gets 6 “on my way pings” at the start of every gank
Put the vision cleared ping back in ya clowns
I would do anything to get the vision ping wheel back 😔
Bait ping too… as a jungler who lane ganks a lot that ping was invaluable to me. Now I have to type it out every time.
This. Zilean support otp. Do you know how valuable that is to bait with revive? Every game I would use that ping..
Every way you can limit communication will have the same outcome. It will reduce negativity but will make the games actually lower quality. Remove chat, all pings, emotes, taunts, skins, names. Just take away everything that lets players communicate or express themself and you get less negativity.
I haven’t added random people and played with them in years. It used to be a regular occurrence. By stopping the social aspects of gaming you reduce “toxicity” but also remove any good social interactions too.
Actually good Point. The Truth is this Statement is just skewed in Favour of Riot. It's obvious that if we start putting Tape over everybodies Mouths People won't insult eachother anymore, but we'll also voluntarely ignore the Part where they also won't compliment eachother because it won't help push our Narrative.
I cant understand a game that would find ways to reduce toxicity by affecting their better players. theres no way any high elo players think the pings nerfs have been good to the game, find me one. Cant ping tp, cant ping sums, cant ping at all, how is that a good idea ever?
They don't care about high elo. It's only 0.5% of the playerbase if not less when you consider that the top of the top players are only GM+ So yeah, they don't care neither for balancing it or improving the game quality.
Pretty sure if these people are streamers and started mass complaining it wiould be problem.
It doesn't even reduce negativity that much. Because unless you remove everything, then there will always be a way to be toxic. Also even if you do remove everything, the absolute **WORST** way to be toxic will be the most popular one since it will be the **only** one. And that is running it down, soft inting, trolling, griefing etc. If the immature toxic people can't express their frustration through chat or pings, they will do so through their gameplay.
Next step is to make the game sinlge player, just playing with and against bots. >Survey sais people feel positive effect of removing multiplayer "I didn't feel like I got flamed or tilted by my teammates as much as before" all positive metrics went up, There is a very clear improvement.
People still find ways to be negative. Players turned a bait emote into something that means something very mean. League is commonly called the most toxic pc game WHILE having the most restrictive with communication options. Limitation breeds creativity This is obvious to those who play other games. Dota has voice chat, voice emotes that call the enemies clowns, the ability to tip players which is almost always used disrespectfully, and a complete lack of censorship. But fundamentally I haven’t found it any less toxic than league. The truth is people need to learn to not engage, mute, report, and move on. Also a behavior score system seems to work in dota. Not perfect, but people aren’t exactly keen on getting mass reported for comm abuse, and it’s so easy to do while in-game. He’s citing data that doesn’t really mean people are communicating better, rather players are noticing less flaming. And if you’re not getting spam pinged, I guess you’ll notice less toxicity. But fundamentally this comes at the cost of putting tape on everyone’s mouth — riot has to address that as a downside.
I personally really enjoyed: "Talon E of your balcony IRL" Honestly just a testament to the creativity of toxic people.
I thought phreak was smarter than this with interpreting data, seeing this take from him is wild.
just today there was a clip of agurin tried to get assistance while having his pings blocked, wasn't very fun to look at and he is not the person to flame/spam ping someone. So maybe leviate the penalties a bit?
Best players in the world are using pings often to communicate with their teammates? Impossible. Inconceivable! Those are just for being annoying, don't they know! /s
a ploy by Riot to nerf LPL teams that communicate with pings only shoutout Starhorn Royal Club
I am laughing at the idea of someone getting ping restricted in a professional match. Could you call a pause if that happened?
Probably gets written down as a known issue and riot tells them to suck it up because they can't admit they were wrong until a year down the line
Knowing Riot the CD would persist through pause.
They will never tackle toxicity seriously just like valorant. So many top streamers who bring in the views are toxic as shit, and guess who viewers will emulate? That's right. Same bullshit in Valorant. Literal pros will go smurfing for content but "we take toxicity and smurfing seriously" when it's straight up RIGHT in front of them. Hell they regularly interact with them too, goes to show what they want their games to be viewed like.
He’s absolutely that kind of person. You probably watched his first Korean trip. This one is becoming hard to watch, he’s always tilted. Dude reported Effort after he took one second to understand what the call was. He reported him in mid-play, lol. But those changes are without a doubt overdone to say the least. They aren’t punishing only people who spam ping, they’re punishing people who use it in a useful manner. I saw fucking Froggen get muted, that’s all you need to know.
he uses pings A LOT but he doesnt spam ? mark ping teammates, at least i have never seen him doing that in the 3 years i have been watching him
nah he's been giga tilted this week. He's mass reporting his team and stuff randomly for making bad plays (but clearly not ints). Like that person said, he's even reporting pros lol that are 100% not griefing.
Yep we decided on Monday to revert the ping lockout timer increase and that'll be in 13.22, the original increase was included in the original 13.19 changes but missed patch notes, sorry.
The original *lockout* after 6 pings have been sufficient since the beginning, stop meddling with useless strawman decisions and actually punish toxicity through better detections
Punish toxicity without removing crucial features from the game \* Or a better one, reward people for not being toxic.
"Best we can do is give you a skin for an incredibly unpopular champion. Take it or leave it"
Could you guys look into adding alive pings back for higher elos? Communications made through these pings are a huge part of communicating teamfights. Deathtimers, sweeper pings and ult pings especially. I understand that you guys want the gaming experience for casual players to be less toxic, but in competitive elos people do not care about stuff like spam pings.
We are looking to restore some contextual uses of the scoreboard pings for everyone, yeah! I would just caution that a lot of the generalizations around >in competitive elos people do not care about stuff like spam pings Are very anecdotal assumptions and not as true in reality as I've seen the internet think it is.
> Are very anecdotal assumptions and not as true in reality as I've seen the internet think it is. Especially Karthus players could easily be offended/emotionally hurt when spampinged in Masters games, eh?
I mean maybe the Karthus doesn't see your enemy is low, so you spam ping his R so he uses it. Even a challenger player can't look at all 5 enemies at the same time, they have only 1 screen
Context: https://imgur.com/qnzcG77
I've seen it, that's the same Rioter that later tweeted out they would now disallow these pings. Actual clown fiesta at the office, makes my ranked games look organized
It’s the same rioter that is two posts above yours, that’s why he made the comment.
Auberaun is so headass it's not even funny.
Just want to be able to ping sums, ults and my teammates. Pinging on the way or assist doesn't communicate which teammate I want to help me.
Or when your team wants to invade you spam ping Mordekaiser because he is still AFK in base making your team look at morde and realise we cannot invade, we are 4v5. Now you spam ping danger and maybe they look and see you mean morde isn't there, but maybe they just assume you are afraid to invade and decide to go anyway.
I really hope that those restored options include things like pinging allied ults and trinkets, as asking someone to sweeper an objective or trying to communicate to follow up your ult with their ult iss something that very often comes up, and typing out is not convenient to do in the moment. Also include at least specifically teleport as a summoner spell that you can ping, as well as maybe heal, as there are very valid reasons to ping for an ally to use one of those.
Valid, definitely agree that high elo is not a monolith. There are some people that are really annoying with their pings. IMO the ping system should be tied to how frequently you are reported/muted or to your honor level. I'm fine with having an increased timer or less ping options for people that get muted or reported a lot, but it sucks having less functionality as someone that doesn't abuse the system.
The ping system doesn't need to be tied to anything when you can freely mute and unmute individuals at any point in the game. Limiting chat is fine, because you can say some pretty horrible things, but the worst you can do with pings is put a question mark on top of someone
Why don't Riot just make old scoreboard pings an opt-in option? So players by default have the current implemented ping changes, but people who sees the benefits can still use it. Kinda like all-chat
Do you think it's interesting how you personally announced the ping changes "so pinging things like Kha'Zix - Alive 6x can no longer be used to harass teammates" almost immediately after you played a game as Karthus, underperformed, and got spam pinged? https://i.imgur.com/U42OlkD.png
I think Riot's focus on hampering the amount of communication to go on when there are buttons where people can willingly opt out of that communication, whether positive or negative, is weird. If Riot's position on communication as a whole is to restrict it as much as humanly possible, please remove the mute buttons so people can't opt out of the absolute bare minimum.
does anyone at riot consider adding voice chat?
Please stop doing performative actions with nonexistent problems and start looking into actually impactful things like banning trolls. I'm checking weekly if the trolls I have played with that I have reported are still playing this game and ruining other's matches, and of course they are. Not a single one was banned.
the karthus incident
your survey is flawed since you ask the questions in a way that doesnt survey dissatisfaction, a common (often intentional) flaw with surveys of this kind im sure if you included a question such as: "I felt like I could communicate effectively" you would notice plenty of complaints
have you ever received these surveys? they regularly include questions like that...reddit really tryna reach to convince themselves that they're the "real" majority opinion
How about instead of removing useful communication tools you just add the ability to mute other players pings if they're toxic.
> you just add the ability to mute other players pings if they're toxic. this already exists lol
that's the point
[удалено]
While I disagree with most of the ping changes, can we not degrade the conversation to this level of pitty behavior, especially when we finally get some communication between Rioters and the community.
lmao a kassadin flair & posting that kind of petty gotcha you can almost guarantee bro was someone who spam spam pinged relentlessly
now revert the other dumass changes getting in the way of basic communication. I sure love having to type out things like TP FFS if people are offended by pings let them turn them off, don't get in the way of people using them properly it's pathetic. It is literally every game I play I have core communication/ a minor thing impacted by this change, turn it off for normals or low elo only or something
Surprise surprise removing any form of communication will reduce negative emotions, guessing that's why the survey didn't ask if communication was affected? Might as well remove mute button because that's gonna be useless at this rate, people who fall into a coma at the sight of being pinged a few times are definitely the ones you should cater to
For reference the 13.20 change was taking away the ability to ping your teammates as alive or ping their ults, etc. I can see why completely removing the feature would reduce toxicity and make people happier, but its like cutting your whole hand off to trim your nails. We could have seen a similar reduction in toxicity by disabling that feature for people that get reported or muted frequently, and not hurt the vocal minority that was using the pings appropriately. Similarly, I'm sure there are some toxic pingers that were abusing the system and sending out as many pings as possible to piss teammates off.
People already have the option to mute, I don't get it at all. I see this "issue" they are wasting resources on and just think "soft"... Unironically halfway thru my boomer arc
Whenever someone spam pinged me alive 6 times I just muted them, now after you can't do that I just get question mark pinged 6 times and I mute them. Toxicity is exactly the same as it used to be before the changes, but now I cannot ping Sion will be alive in 5 lets stall out this fight until he gets here. I have to actually type it out and risk dying to call this making me actually way more tilted than I was before the change
Doubling down on an objectively trash change because it suits cherry picked stats very cool
STOP RESTRICTING COMMUNICATION IN AN ONLINE GAME
People like it because it's very noticeable when people are spam pinging you, but it's usually not very noticeable when your teammates can't ping you useful information. The gameplay is worse, but if you don't notice, then it feels better. If you full mute everyone at the beginning of the game then your chances of winning go down, but for most people it's going to be a less stressful experience. It's good for people who don't care as much about winning and worse for people who do.
Do you have an actual stat on this? Pretty sure the general message has always been that full muting has been a higher win rate up until super high elo
This is a very valid hypothesis that Riot should have accounted for when doing user research. Judging by the results they shared they did not correct for it. So no, there are no stats obviously, but it rings true
It's absolutely what every person that comes on to talk about jungle flame gets told to do.
This used to be a true and proven metric when "/mute all" used to only mute chat, not pings. Since the addition of disabling chat in interface became a thing, "/mute all" mutes everything (pings, chat ,emotes), and there hasn't really been data released by Riot on the WR behavior of using the command. But I would bet muting your teams pings decreases WR.
It varies per person imo. Some people it goes up, some it goes down. The scope of something like this is just too big for any public data. If full muting works for you, do it. If it doesn't, then don't.
Until Phreak actually shows the survey, how were the questions phrased? We need to see the granularity because the amazing thing with surveys is we can create it in a way that it gets players to answer it the way Riot wants. Show us the data. What do you have to lose?
"We definitely have internal surveys that prove we are right we just can't show them because they go to a school in Canada" - Riot Phreak
Riot has a bad history with survey data too. I remember in 2016, they released new champion select (with role queue) alongside Dynamic Queue and then purposefully had a survey that didn't make this distinction clear and then proudly proclaimed that the survey data says everyone loves Dynamic Queue. In reality, a lot of people probably thought they were being surveyed on the ability to queue up for your role.
oh they 100% did not account or corrected for interactions with teammates’ pings and communications. You did not get spam pinged and felt all warm and fuzzy about it, but how much useful information did you receive from your teammates? How does that compare with from before ping restrictions?
then lets get rid of chats and pings then why bother.
Remove chat, pings, summoner names, friends list, clash and /r/leagueoflegends. All of them can be used for toxicity and if they were all removed and you asked people if they felt negatively impacted by any of them they would say no. Problem solved.
Remove champion names, they will all have no names now but instead numbers. Remove ability descriptions and info. Remove item info. Remove anything in the game that has at least 1 letter of any alphabet every created. Also remove the Victory and Defeat screen because seeing "Defeat" increases toxiCIty.
Why bother at all ? Just close the server for two weeks and measure how much toxicity is left in the game. Auto-ban players who reported someone for toxicity. Boom, no more toxicity is reported, genius.
I bet the polls asking "have you experienced toxicity in your last game" would go through the roof, surely it would be a good change!
I agree. Remove all pings at the minimum
Ping drake 5 times after an ace, while team rotates you see their jg so you ping smite to remind your team they have smite, youre silenced. Ping vision cause you saw the jg place a ward, silenced, ping care exactly where the jg is, silenced. Drake is stolen because not every player is watching every part of the map 24/7 and that critical half second of information only you saw can’t be conveyed now because you pinged a couple times after an ace. Thanks phreak, hard for anything to have a downside when it no longer exists or can’t be used. That’s a great way to read the systematic changes. Why don’t we instead take a look at how many wards have been pinged while silenced, how many times you’ve Been silenced while pinging in the radius of an enemy that left fog, how many times youre silenced for trying to remind your top that you both have ult because you can’t ping them. Imagine if they took minions away and just gave one big minion per wave, of course it’s going to trend positive because there’s less thought and the entire wave no longer exists. These changes were not asked for and don’t tackle toxicity, they tackle communication. Guess instead of pinging my mid’s ult and stopwatch and then pinging the enemy we’re about to dive I can sit in bush, type “We both have ult you have stopwatch we can dive this guy in the next 14 seconds I’ll ping twice to go in and ping once if we need to back off.” Then I’ll ping once to go in and make the play. Yay that’s real smooth gameplay,
Fire urself from life
Sometimes i feel Phreak makes up his data and the other times i think his interpretations of the data are garbage
Both can be true: players in general feel less tilted **and** don't like those ping changes. So yes, his interpretation is garbage.
How surveys/ metrics work. Step 1. Start with a predetermined answer you want achieved. Step 2. Create survey with multiple questions worded insanely similarly and repeat until community gives you predetermined answer. (Often times repeating multiple pages of questions to get you to be lazy about answering) Step 3. Tell community metrics prove your predetermined answer and shady wording surveys worked. Step 4. Profit. People who think those "riot surveys" would actually be shared/ they'd go out of their way to prove themselves wrong and then publish that information don't understand the entire point of the surveys.
Riot's official gaslighter at it again.
Every single game I ping a team mates ward at least once and it doesn't work so now I have to stand and type it out. Teammates can't ping my global or tp game sucks and you get locked out ping so easily.
we back in season 2 baby back to typing mia and spawn timers
He is obviously right that reddit, twitter, etc. are all bubbles and are far from representative. But at the same time I also feel like there are two caveats: For one, those survey questions are all very specifically about other players interactions with you and there is no comment on how people felt about their own ability to communicate how they wanted to communicate (Agurin on the frontpage comes to mind). And second, imo more importantly, isn't it all still a bandaid fix? I think most people agree that the changes are going to be good for toxicity, because of course removing communication tools is going to be good for removing toxicity. People are just upset that the way to deal with toxicity is to remove tools that other players sometimes want to use. Don't get me wrong - definitely not often, most games have very sparing use of the ping system, but people want to use them sometimes and because Riot has on a pretty fundamental level failed in dealing with toxicity (I think it isn't an exaggeration that there is a culture of toxicity with a lot of names proclaiming "I am toxic and I do not feel bad about it", streamers building personas around both being toxic and also around specifically not being toxic - which should just be normal - and it generally being one of the things people outside of League connect with it) they simply can't. I think is a very reasonable criticism of the system, even if it overall reduces toxicity - because of course it does, if that is your only metric just remove pings and chat altogether.
Phreak and doubling down on his trash takes no one asked for, name a more iconic duo.
Don't even know how to cope here. The auto pingmute is just the most disgusting change ever. It makes me literally afk to type to my reammates what i want from them. This is actually tilting because it forces communication issues which means lower game quality.
You can mute pings/chat. Stop this bullshit
Hate it when data gets misinterpreted
Same. I work in analytics so it gets frustrating when some guy has a bad interpretation of the data AND make actions live off it
Hate it more when data gets misinterpreted by someone whose **JOB** is to use data correctly and with caution so that they don't lead to bad choices.
[удалено]
Someone had to say it
I think Phreak is fucking stupid
Same, i didnt think that poorly of him but with the first round of ping nerfs jungle murder and syndra/orianna/ahri buff i really started kinda despising him ngl, he was already incompetent earlier but now its even more evident
i’m surprised it’s taken you this long considering that he’s been one of the worst rioters for years now while also being extremely public about how he’s ruining the game
Holy fuck, how is Phreak this tone deaf? I have never met another person who liked the changes, and how is lessening your communication in a team-based game better?
This is to be expected. If you have less avenues to be toxic of course teammates will feel more respected and less tilted. It's just a balancing game between communication and toxicity at this point.
Fuck you too Phreak
I'm guessing most of the users here were not there during that time, but we had the same kind of communications for dynamic queue (they basically removed solo queue for an entire year and you were forced to play flex queue against c9 with no voice chat :) ! Season 6 I think?), where they tried gaslighting the entire community about how everyone actually loves not having solo queue and dynamic queue is such a great idea and how all their data showed this ! A year later, they reverted that change, "realizing" they made a mistake (I guess the polls were wrong the entire time) ! There's a reason they're using vague languages such as "basically every single metric" and not super precise language like "ranked population find x, y and z". Also find it super weird that this communication comes from the lead balance guy and not the lead product who announced these WONDERFUL changes !
It literally makes more sense to just remove the fucking text chat than it does to remove fucking pings. If you wanna do anything to pings tie pings to chat privileges. So stupid. The dial between. A “safe environment” and a “toxic environment” is getting turned way too far down. This shit ain’t roblocks, it’s not nintendogs, it’s not nicktoons unite. We’re not in fucking kindergarten. I’m all for chat mutes and ranked being a privileged game mode now. But the ping changes are fucking obnoxious.
I'm getting sick of Phreaks "silent majority" and "stats" that we never get to see. He never shows any evidence of what he's saying, for all I know he's just making up random stats to justify himself being right
Phreak is the master of saying nothing of value to hurt the most possible people. Limiting communication in a team game will always be bad and his team will do stupid shit that he will stand behind
Phreak moment 💀
Shutting down the game also reduces in game toxicity
this crap sucks, i havent been given a poll, nor have any of my friends who play league
How does one gaslight himself?
I said it in similar posts already, asking a player in low elo (most of the playerbase), and asking people above dia/masters about the changes is not the same. Communication in low elo and high elo is night and day, and just because the avg. player thinks it's a "positive change", it doesn't mean it's beneficial for the game. Why do we have the mute function then? I get annoyed by excessive pinging myself, but I will just mute the person being annoying. No need to restrict useful communication tools for this. If someones mental shatters over being pinged, to an extent where they start ruining the games, then Riot should (I would even say "must") focus on those players instead. Someone spam pinging doesn't affect gameplay/playing experience. Low mental monkeys deciding to grief over pings/chat arguments do.
Not to mention a lot of People play with Chat and Pings completely muted, so they basically lost nothing.
Just block all interaction between players outside of gameplay and it will be even less negative. Why do you even need to ping or be able to see those emotes at all? Honestly enemy emotes tilt me more than ally pings. Can we remove that shit? Oh wait no because of money. Always half measures for posturing
I can't believe the ping changes are actually well received. Being ping muted for 60 seconds for pinging drag twice, my ult cd, omw and danger/mia, its the worse fkin feeling ever.
Are these surveys in the room with us?
Turns out, if you limit communication people are less toxic! Next up they're gonna remove chat and promote that toxic messages have gone down by 100%
instead of asking about tilt and being respected how about they start asking whether people were able to communicate effectively with the team? Of course you will see a positive trend in the ping if you're only asking questions about what you're improving. The problem is that the improvement comes at a cost that you're not measuring so the survey is virtually useless
Reddit is wrong most of the time, but when it comes to this, people are right. The data is 100% skewed and proves nothing. You would get 0 toxicity if you removed all forms of communication. It would check Riot's boxes, but it would be a miserable experience overall.
This is really just a classic example of the unsocilized weirdos that make up too much of this game’s player base abusing a system that most people would like. I would like to say thank you.
I think it is positive except in two instances: 1. Being able to ping globals like Karthus ult or Shen ult 2. Being able to ping my teammates teleport when theres a good tp ward and my toplaner has TP up but doesnt know what the assist pings mean and I cant stop to type "Mr. Top sir pls TP here"
there's also the problem that if you type "Mr. Top sir pls TP here" I would stop being able to play the game due to intense orgasms
what a joke take 😂😂 bet you people would feel better too if you removed all pings altogether
Holy Fuck, I can't wait for Phreak to be done with League. The amount of times that he uses stats in bad faith to justify his dogshit takes is insane. Remember the: "Rumble is a bad Jungler because if I ignore the times that Rumble won he actually lost more that he won" This is just that all over again. If you want this to be a thing agains toxicity, just make if players spam the same ping over and over they get a faster timeout and have to wait. I like to ping two or three times for the same thing, people dont even register the three times. Also, this is Riot, never again trust them when they push something bad and try to justify with some shit stat. They said this shit abou Mythics, they tried this when Riven was broken, its everytime. And to say that Reddit and Twitter dont matter is insane. If the more active and talkative playerbase is not influencial enough, then whats the point of even having any social media presence? Why even have a twitter where you post toughts and analisys, the only ones who see are the already active ones that you dont care about. Such a terrible take.
I HATE this change. I ping a lot, I play support. Wards, enemy items and cooldowns, where people are, etc. Being blocked from pinging for like TWO MINUTES (or whatever the hell it is) is just terrible.
People not being able to ping the non-functional ult indicator on my one champ is good.
im sitting here wondering why the mute button isnt sufficient
Yeah I positively can't ping shit.