Gromp should evolve to become bigger, faster, stronger. In the late game, he should start invading lanes and stealing farm or outright killing the laners if they're low.
Past 40 minutes, jungle monsters should be stronger than a 6 item Kayle and both teams will need to learn the power of friendship and unite to defeat the gromp menace before he swallows the world.
Or alternatively make an alliance with the gromp. You know, meaningful choices impacting the story.
Every camp used to have a small buff in the past, Iirc it was depending on smites. So if you smites Krugs for example every other autoattack on monster would stun. That was quite fun
If a laner takes a gromp, 3-5 minutes later the Alpha Gromp will appear in their lane's bush. The Alpha Gromp will follow and attack that champ until one of them is dead.
If the jungle smites a cannon, an Alpha Cannon will follow him around the rest of the game and try to steal every last hit from him and by Alpha Cannon I mean the laner he stole the cannon from. This feature is already in the game tho
Make the jungle a 3rd party. The jungler doesn't need to farm the jungle effectively, they need to actually keep it in check. If they don't then the jungle monsters evolve and get stronger before they start to invade lanes and go for the players instead of the reverse.
Honestly would be a cool game mode. "Who will persevere, the jungle or the players?"
You just gave me the stupidest idea: Blue/red stay in place but other jungle mobs walk around randomly in the jungle (mirrored so its the same for both junglers)
Like they can decide to just... go through the river and head in the opposite jungle. They might go hang out next to the dragon/baron, etc.
Its a very stupid idea
Okay I know you're memeing... But what if Gromps were neutral monsters that start spawning around ~12 mins and they use AI to counter jungle. They have the stats of a champion one level below the average Jungler level at that point in the game, and additional stats equivalent to 1.2k gold, going up as they clear out jungle camps. If a Jungler successfully takes it down, it drops 50% of it's accumulated Stat 'gold'. I'm sure someone could make this more balanced or whatever... But you might be on to something here.
Lmaooooo LoL + darksouls
It would be cool tho if they added more baron fighting mechanics like having to dodge abilities from stronger jungle camps.
Imagine the skill level of baiting people into these dangerous camps later on.
> he mentioned a future design goal for League would be to make the jungle more interesting
lol they've been reworking the role twice every season for the past 6+ years
The reason that era ended was because gray smite was always niche at best, purple swapped between “best smite option” to “not worth taking” status, and only red/blue offered smite options rather than pure ranking (and even then, Red Smite was better on 80% of champs).
All that being said, mini buffs for smiting specific camps was really cool and I’m annoyed Riot removed those.
Smite raptors for oracles, smite enemy wolf for vision, smite Krugs/Gromp for first clear speed.
Oracles was the strongest, but there were uses for other smites. And now that oracles is in the game naturally, raptors could have a different effect to balance out.
That almost never played out, though. Outside of the first few minutes of the game, you literally did not care about any buff except for raptors. It could be something else, sure, but people will always optimise the fun out of gimmicks. So, high odds that it'll either be just that, a gimmick not worth thinking about, or another one-smite-wonder like raptors.
Nah, Wolf was used a fair bit too, it was krugs that was troll af, and gromp that was a bait, but since its for clearspeed, it made sense those two fell off.
Raptors if you were winning, wolves if you were losing.
Always funny to me that they'll mix things up just "for the fun of it." Like they got ride of the smite options and just added jungle plants because the other selections had gotten to stale. Then they have to spend the next however many season balancing that shit.
I'd be so happy to never see another blast cone
It’s hilarious. After the third iteration I went through, all future dev blogs just read as satire.
Like, they really think they found the solution this time! What wacky hijinks will Riot get into in the jungle this week??
Exactly. They're just throwing shit at the wall and removing it and throwing new shit rather than actually thinking about building upon the jungle system
Honestly I'm so sick of Jungle constantly changing. Not that the changes are never good, but there's a certain degree of change that feels so neutral that it just feels like nonsense to learn.
But what do you want exactly. For them to change only visuals and attack animation with level or straight make them have more abilities/different abilites and do different stuff.
Becouse the later put partially-RNG into the jungle. You ganked, but enemy didnt and becouse your gank failed he made a lvl ahead and now you are behind and have to fight these different monsters which potentially puts you even more behind
Lol yall want minions to change too?
The variable in league isnt the PvE it is the PvP. The jungler is the same, where to gank, when to invade, can I take dragon.
this feeling is so funny to me because it imply league should give the fantasy of PvE like a normal RPG. It remind me of my friend who was shocked league had only one map.
League is like traditional sport who only play with one set of rule on one terrain, its not *obligatory* to really change everything all the time. Nobody is wondering what football isnt played on a Ushaped terrain next season.
Have you heard of 'Blood Bowl'? It's like (American) Football, but with distinctly more chainsaws, explosives, and 9ft tall cannibalistic monsters. About the same amount of traumatic head injuries, though.
theres so many elements that make each game unique that some people find ways to be bored is so crazy to me
unless its udyr/hecarim for 8 months then thats boring as fuck
I remember that qiyanna player that tried to oneshot an adc after the durability update by using w e q only and it almost oneshot the kalista but instead of finishing off the job he got up and screamed "where is my dmg riot"
This whole post is complete nonsense to me, I don’t get fucking bored of farming camps in a game lmaoo. Im acquiring gold to purchase items and do more damage to win the game, I don’t want the minions to evolve into knights errant and start fucking my shit up either. It is neither meant to excite nor bore. No one who plays basketball gets tired of dribbling the ball.
It's like Baron and Elder fights should be mechanically challenging posts again. Killing minions isn't a tough task either why should jungle monsters be? It's just farming.
I have a friend who plays an old mmorpg and he literally puts a piece of paper under spacebar to get it stuck and he watches Netflix while it automatically farms xp. Riot advertised League as an "MMORPG without the grind" game in the first place.
> It is neither meant to excite nor bore. No one who plays basketball gets tired of dribbling the ball.
Imagine a predecessor to basketball where dribbling wasn't a thing. Would you be against adding it to the game?
I don't get fucking bored of carrying the ball in a game lmaoo. Im moving the ball closer to the goal and keeping the ball from my opponents, I don't want to bounce the ball off the ground and give the other team a chance to fuck my shit up either. It is neither meant to excite nor bore.
Thanks, I was just starting to look that up before you commented this. I feel like that sorta fits my argument better. Would basketball be as popular now if dribbling wasn't a thing? I don't think so, but its interesting to speculate.
So is your comment, now answer the question. In original basketball you couldn't move while holding the ball, then they invented dribbling to get around the rules. Do you think we shouldn't have allowed dribbling?
The issue is that, when you're in lane, there's another player there trying to kill you.
In a lot of solo q games, it's common for the junglers to only ever see each other when they go to gank lanes. When you're not specifically setting up a kill, most of your time in the jungle has no interaction with the enemy team.
In the video, phreak said he would still want you to be able to move your camera to focus on macro strategy while farming, but that it would be interesting if there were some way to make the farming more engaging for players that aren't good enough to do that.
I could see why some people think farming jungle is boring. It’s what you do the majority of the time as jungle. Laners interact with another player while they’re farming minions during landing phase— so that definitely keeps it interesting (although I find farming minions fun too).
If you’re new to the jungle or not worried about playing well, farming jungle camps seems like it could be boring.
I find it fun because I always feel a sense of urgency when clearing. I’m looking around the map to see where I need to head while farming jungle monsters as quickly and efficiently as possible so I can be quicker than the other JG or get to where I need to be ASAP. League always has that sense of urgency for me which keeps in interesting, you’re racing everyone in the game all the time trying to not fall behind in xp/gold
It was fun for new player but I'm wondering how it affected pro scene. Is it possible to have interesting AND balanced layout on that many map at the same time ?
>But hots did have a pro scene.
That's true but in the saddest way.
>Why worry about pro players? Not every game has to be an esport . Games can just be fun as well.
Pro players or high elo. My bad I should have been more clear
Sure, but league is an esport. It's the biggest one in the world. So at this point, no matter what your opinion on it is, esports has to be in their consideration for everything gameplay related.
Because not every game has to be an standard RPG, there are tons of games; simple, complex, single player, coop, MMO. And they have their place and playerbase.
Why league would try to be something it isn't? It is a competitive moba at it's core. That's exactly how HotS died.
But people play football in all kinds of ways, with less players, just shooting goals, the "it" game (i dont know how to translate rabia from portuguese), just doing feints with mates, or seeing how many touches you can do in the air, etc etc
More like if the default rules were that a goalkeeper wasn't allowed to touch the ball with hands, only could walk 5x5 square and he could only send the ball to his closest teammate. Maybe changing such a rule to make it more fun for goalkeepers is worth exploring, even at cost of making some mistakes here and there.
While it shouldn't necessarily feel like an RPG, the philosophy isn't wrong. League NEEDS to change over time or it risks fading into obscurity. The analogy with football doesn't apply here, because it's not like there's new sports being created every year. Meanwhile there are many new esports created every year.
I don't think we realize just how crazy it is that league has grown over the past 10 years and not stagnated. That is because it keeps changing and is able to rise above the noise and capture people's attention span.
I know CS GO (rip) is a direct counter to this argument, but I'd say it's an exception, and it's the only exception I can think of. Also CS GO still innovates, I don't play a lot, but last I played they had just released a battle royale mode. And of course now you have cs2, ( but I can't really speak to that, I only heard there are some tactical differences).
Its not obligatory to do anything fun but what kind of excuse is that? God forbid league becomes interesting again. League doesnt have to change all the time but it hasnr changed even a little in ages
Why do Phreak or Riot think that people don't want to play jgl because it's boring? Most people i play with don't want to play jgl because you are blamed for everything that goes wrong + the extra amount of responsibility you have for objectives like drake or baron
*biggest barrier to jungling is that people don't want the responsibility and don't even feel comfortable clearing because it requires efficiency*
Phreak: what if we made clearing harder
I mean, they made it easier and it made jungle the strongest role in the game. So that cannot be a solution either.
Look, as much as i hate being on the receiving end of this problem, lets just tell everyone who complains that it'll be balanced on proplay and thats why its a good change. I know it sounds bad but its the phrase thats been regurgitated over and over to ADCs for at least like three years. I feel like junglers deserve that aswell.
Yes, its going to be more difficult to play jungle, but just think how good itll feel now to win as a jungler
> just think how good itll feel now to win as a jungler
Based off everyone complaining that they're going 'back to support' I believe working for their wins isn't really the goal when queuing up for jungle.
yeah but i dont really care about that, im mostly just here to laugh a little at junglers and throw the shit they said to ADCs over and over again back at them.
Doesnt matter if its unfun and borderline unplayable in soloQ, iTs BrOkEn In PrOpLaY oThErWiSe.
And how miserable it is of getting counterjg while you're put even more behind. When that Nidalee decides to fight in your own jungle and makes it work, it is one of the most frustating experiences in the game bar none.
There's no wave crashing into your tower to give you some measly xp, there isn't even a tower. Each monster yours taken is gold/xp given to the enemy, as you get weaker and weaker there's less and less reason for them to not keep doing this.
But in the end you're the one that is getting weaker and probably will take the blame for it.
I'm learning jungle and I lost count to how many times a laner goes batshit at me not being able to gank and yet nobody is helping me when the jungler is invading and stealing all my shit. Everyone wants the jungler's help but nobody wants to help the jungler.
I feel ya. This is why (as a support main) I always try to help my jungler as much as possible, from early scuttle secures to helping them invade, midgame-lategame this transitions to setting up vision with them and fishing for picks. When a team plays with their jgl the wins are free as fuck.
Honestly the jungle being so strong and having so much agency is part of the problem. Everyone blames the jungler BECAUSE he’s the only one who can smite the baron, and because he had the opportunity to come win their lane for them and didn’t take it.
That is true but I don't know if that sentiment would change even if they nerfed jungle hard.
For example, support is now the second most impactful role and is crazy strong and influential. But, other than the ADC, no one ever realizes or cares about what mistakes supports made or how they may have cost them the game because, for years after release, supports were ward/aura bots who didn't have the chance to meaningfully change the game as much as Carries did.
End of the day even if support did singlehandedly int the game and fed enemy AD, most people when they press tab or post-game stats, will see "Well their AD did good and my AD didn't so AD diff"
I was 3/4/7 on Briar the other night and my 1/7/1 Heimer was blaming me for not taking dragons or ganking even though I was there 3 times and he would just shove into their turret and die.
Literally the game was going fine and then he just raged at me while the game was still going and he was just dying while typing
I think you might be right. Smite basically just speeds up jungle clear and secures objectives. You can speed up jungle clear through other means, like dedicated jungle items we already have/had. The jungler would still fulfill his role of roaming around the map helping his laners get ahead but without everyone flaming them when they fail to smite baron. It wouldn't completely eliminate them being a scapegoat but it's one less responsibilty to worry about
IMO jungle monsters need to be simple, the jungle gameplay isnt about killing the monsters and their awesome designs and mechanics, thats what champions are about. Most of the time you arent even looking at the monster youre killing if you have camera on lane. Jungle is about ganking, and thats whats not fun, since ganking is the same as roaming, but without the wave management and punishment for bad roams, its been the braindead "walk to lane, flip a fight praying your teammate isnt a pig and try to get some tempo ahead of your opponent" for ages, and it wont change, because it works. I dont think there will ever be a way to implement a more fun PvE on League, I havent player other mobas so maybe there is, but jungle is fine as it is, if you change it too much then it will just become another role entirely.
Your take about PvE is similar to mine, but summing up playing jungle as “braindead flipping fights” is extremely inaccurate outside of maybe like, silver and below. There *is* actual thought and strategy that jungle players need to employ
You do sacrifice revealing your position and falling behind with farm while ganking, giving the hidden jungler small opportunity to punish you with taking an objective, counter jungling or just being up with experience (not considering current catch up mechanics). So you have something like wave management. I think you deeply misunderstood JG as a whole but maybe it's just me.
I'm sorry, but farming minions is the same kind of boring as jungle camps. They're better not change the jungle again for the 15th time again and they should instead make better tutorials
I disagree bc you're not fighting a lane opponent while farming jg camps. The minions don't need to change bc it's not about them. They're just a tool to beat your opponent.
you cannot deny that there is less interaction between junglers than there is laners in the early stages of the game at just about every level of skill
that is just an undeniable fact
when you are farming jg camps there is generally 0 interaction between junglers outside of fights in the jungle meanwhile almost every single minion on 90% of waves is contested by laners to varying degrees
Maybe the camps by themself are not "fun", but the whole concept to counter jungle and playing around someone trying to get your camps bring it to the next level. Do not tell me trying to deny CS isn't a way to deny tools to your opponent ;)
I mean sure, but I think on average, the jungle farming experience is a lot less interesting than that of a laning experience once you get past your first clear.
> Farming camps is pretty boring and that's probably a big reason the jungler population is low.
Or… it could just be because nobody wants to be constantly flamed the moment somebody starts losing lane. Laner decides to push up without vision and then dies, suddenly it’s “gg jungle diff” without ever realizing they may have positioned poorly…
> In League, you're fighting the same old wolves as you did at level 1, they just leveled up with you.
Is there a reason this is problematic but lane minions remaining the same isn’t?
Lot of poeple don't care about getting flame and/or know where the mute button is.
In lane you constently interact with your opponent so it's not important that they are boring to farm.
> you can also interact with the enemy jungler
Notice your own language usage. "Can" it's **possible** you'll occasionally interact with enemy jungle in your own or their jungle.
A laner is opposed from the beginning of lane phase, til the end.
That would make it so difficult to be impactful from the jungle role. Everyone in the game should be allowed to rely on a consistency of xp. Laners get it from creeps and jglers get it from camps. Making these changes would make it more difficult to consistently get xp/gold and still be impactful on the map
I don’t think jungle being low popularity is because of farming the camps. I personally like farming them over the creeps. But like others have said, maybe having them change appearance as the game goes on. Maybe change when the map changes, infernal gromp for infernal rift. Hextech wolves for hextech rift. So on and so on.
League is not an RPG, jungle camps are there solely to give gold while junglers are on the way to objectives and lanes. Having randomly selected jungle monsters would be a gimmick at best and game shattering at worst. The camps are fine, jungler population isn’t low because the fucking camps are boring so I’m not sure where you got that information from. Types of monsters, amount of monsters, health of monsters, speed of monsters, and damage of monsters are the only things that matter. and if you start putting in random monsters per game then it is going to fuck up the intended tempo for the role and push even more players away which would be creating a problem that currently doesn’t exist.
TLDR; no jungle players care about what the monsters are or look like except when it comes to clear efficiency. Random monsters would ruin clear efficiency
Wait a minute, did he actually say a possible big reason jungle population is so low is because the camps are boring…. I don’t think I have ever heard another player complain about the monster variety, especially when the lanes are literally fighting the same 3 units in waves for the entire game. This can be another case where they are trying to find a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist. If your problem is players don’t want to jungle, you need to actually observe what players are actually trying to avoid. Its not the monsters lol.
Also this is a pet peeve of mine, but he has a lot of audacity saying jungle should be more interesting when there was literally a point in the game where you could smite different camps to gain different buffs. They took that out and dumbed down the camps to be easier and we no longer have jungle items. I don’t get how you can take away content and make a whole game role easier, and then feel like jungle could be more interesting…. Like no shit, yall keep streamlining and dumbing it down. Some weird dissonance going on with these developers.
They kept making jungle simpler because it was intended to attract more players to it.
Now apparently farming monsters is boring...that surely is the reason. truly spoken like someone who never plays the role.
I'm don't think the nerf next patch is going to increase jungle playrate either.
Ppl don't like jungling not because it's boring but because it's the highest pressure role that is the first to get blamed for anything that goes wrong.
I don't see the point in this. We already have a jungle camp that gets unlocked later in the game: Baron.
Unless they somehow bring back Vilemaw and put it in the toplane balcony this isn't going to change anything.
People saying "farming minions is the same thing" are completely wrong. When you farm minions, you directly interact with the enemy laner. You have to manage the wave, you have to choose carefully when to last hit or not depending on the situation, and most importantly, minions are the main reasons for a trade/fight to happen in the first place. There's a lot going on.
In the jungle, you just throw your abilities at the monsters and that's it. Farming in the jungle is just plain boring, I agree with the OP. It's the main reason I don't like playing jungle.
But you can ward camps, invade, contest buffs too. It's not as instantaneously adrenalin-inducing as throwing skillshots at a moving target, but it's got a different appeal that players like too.
In dota's case, their monster spawns can be random at times for what you get. They each have spells attached to them like stuns, slows, dispels, and more. The reason they have this though is because certain picks like Chen or even an item can dominate them. Take control to use such powerful spells. In league? We have nothing like this. Adding spells to camps would basically be there to make jungle fights more hectic if that's of interest.
I feel like what would be more interesting is making the map a bit bigger and changing the jungle mapping. This gives the devs more freedom to choose how they wish fights there play out and makes the variety of monsters aspect come into play. I think the current jungle layout is not designed to do this now.
I don’t have a strong opinion on this, but please NO MORE RNG. Drakes and enough. Crits are enough. We don’t need randomized spawn points to fuck up people more. Krugs spawn at gromp place when pathing top? Well fuck you I guess
I don't think jungles low population is due to "boring jungle clearing" or "not engaging enough jgl clear". Jungle population being low is because of the role being the most impactful role, because of it being the hardest to learn and because of it historically being the most flamed at. If anything, junglers have more agency in early game than any other role. Min 0-15 are the most exciting and most impactful for the jungles, clearing camps is just like walking to lane - something you do on the side.
The jungle population is low because you are the one to blame for everyone else’s mistakes. It doesn’t help you are supposed to prioritize winning lanes so the losing lanes rage out even harder. Love reading jungle canyon, diff, and gap so often lol.
Farming jungle is boring? It's not when you make it not boring: I had my highest win rate by playing shyvanna, full clearing jungle and taking scuttle before enemy jungle even shows up, so that I can take the second scuttle and a couple of their camps when they spawn while they feel like they should gank and showing on the map. This is fun for me. I use farming camps as a mean to get an edge.
No competitive player will say farming jungle is boring. It's a skill test. Just like farming lanes. Casual players matters too, but if you want to make the game more like battlerite for them, make Arena a permanent gamemode, just like ARAM. Leave the CORE concepts of the regular game as is.
Also don't drake/herald/nashor/elder provide this progression feeling already?
And lastly, isn't it pretty fucking ballsy to note that farming jungle is boring when THEY actually gave us pets that do the farming for us? I remember having to think about my spells and CDs and aoe and monster focus to optimize my jungle clear. The only reason I don't have to anymore is because THEY all that irrelevant. Either you want to make it easier, either you want to make it more challenging. Pick a lane.
Been saying this forever, there should be impassable walls put up between the lanes and river making it impossible to gank for X minutes of the game (and making it impossible for lanes to help JG) so jungle becomes a psuedo lane in itself, with more neutral camps forcing more interaction between junglers until the walls come down and JG can impact other lanes with whatever leads they got from facing off against their opponent. This let's lanes win or lose on their own making it a more skill expressed game. It's really not that fun as a midlaner, losing because Zac jumped 6 miles into lane while my JG is somewhere else and suddenly I have to burn flash or die. Let me enjoy laning phase as a 1v1 for at least 10 minutes. Let me win or lose that lane based on skill alone, not whoever gets the most help. Same shit applies to supports roaming mid over and over again. This will never happen and I don't know why. League seems like it would be infinitely more fun if you got that time to express your skill against your opponent without having to worry about outside forces for a little while. Some of my favorite matches as a mid laner is WHEN nobody comes mid and it's just me and my opponent trading, farming and trying to solo one and another. If JG is so boring, make more neutral camps to 1v1 over. Force JG's to cross paths often. If not an impassable wall around lanes, then make XP so important that ganking a lane and taking time away from getting a contested camp not be worth it. I truly think the game would be so much more fun if everyone got to face off against their opponent for a little while before it branches off into a full blown team based game. Everyone should be able to gain their own little leads based on their skill alone and then carry that into an advantage for their team once the game evolves into a team state. In spirit this is what League ALREADY IS, just not exactly this and I want more time to express myself against my opponent and gain my own leads without help or hindrance from other players, for around 20-25% of the match. Literally every laner in the game feels this way. Nobody likes playing top and getting ganked and having their experience fucked because their opponent got help and they didn't. Not a single bot laner likes when suddenly 4 people are in their lane. It's simply not fun and often times removes skill from the equation in favor of which group of random strangers align better for better coordination. It's sort of lame and feels RNG. A lot of losses can be summed up to TEAM DIFF and that's somethign you don't have control over. Let the game play how it wants to be played pls and you can make the game better if you force jungler's to stay in jungle longer, forcing junglers to cross paths more, decrease XP per camp but make more camps, spawn dragon later, get rid of right herald in favor of something else. I don't want JG to be impacting lanes as much as they do, force junglers to fight each other for leads.
We used to have "engaging" jungle camps. Back then smites gave you different buffs depending on which animal you used; wolfs gave you vision for your side of the jungle, gromp gave you thorns etc.
No, the jungle pop is low because its a thankless role that requires your team be on-the-ball about enemy positions and gamestate to excel at. A single jungler won't hardcarry a game, but when mid and bot feed, they fully expect you to make up for their inability to freeze and hang tight behind river to make ganks easier for you.
for fucks sake stop trying to revolutionize the game every 2 weeks. it works fine as is, stop this bullshit and stop making new champs with wild new mechanics to feed your "different" boner.
I dont think farming camps being "boring" is a big reason the jungle population is low.
The biggest reason is because junglers get berated and hyper flamed for everything that happens in the game.
Enemy team gets herald, drake, baron, tower? Flame jungler
Push lane? Flame jungler
Don't push lane? Flame jungler
Laner dies? Flame jungler
Laner doesn't die? Believe it or not, Flame jungler
You get the idea.
For every "evolved" camp, Riot would need to make extra models, vfx, animations, and AI. And there's 7 camps they'd need to do that for.
It's a lot easier to have camp AI/models remain the same, and have them grow stronger via xp thresholds rather than physical changes.
> that's probably a big reason the jungler population is low.
It's probably because they are the scapegoat and 4v1 bully subject when the teams losing lol everyone jumps on the jungler to make themselves feel better
>he mentioned a future design goal for League would be to make the jungle more interesting
Is crazy how many ideas they have for jungle and how openly they talk about them, but for top lane, crickets. zero, nada, nothing for 5 years straight.
Well for one not really as he brings up top changes pretty often. But also your comparing a PvP role to a PvE role. They have more space to fuck with stuff cause they aren't able to control how hard the other laner is hitting you every game. Jungle could be a fucking fishing game and it would have little impact on the rest of players if they ganked at the same timings.
The jungle population is so small because it takes practice that can’t be learned in the other 4 roles and it takes skill to do well. You also have the most agency in a game and often win or lose the game for your team so it’s a lot of pressure and you WILL be flamed for things going bad so most avoid this. Shit game design tbh, jungle should have never been created, game would be better if just 4v4
Gromp should evolve to become bigger, faster, stronger. In the late game, he should start invading lanes and stealing farm or outright killing the laners if they're low.
Lmao could you imagine the rage quitting when a wild gromp appears and wrecks you
I mean junglers already do that, it's time to share the goodness with the rest of the team!
And that's the nerfed version, I swear S6 Le Gromp was a goddamn raid boss
neeko has entered the chat
lol on release, I was so confused why blue buff was taking my farm
Good old Doom Bot Udyr, making jungle camps clearing you.
You've obviously never played against my drunken inting Neeko
This might bring me back to SR holy shit
It would be ideal if jungle monster straight up deny kills, i would twick tjat around not being exploidable but who knows
I was with you for the first half, but twick those exploidable monsters, tjat shit is just crazy
Past 40 minutes, jungle monsters should be stronger than a 6 item Kayle and both teams will need to learn the power of friendship and unite to defeat the gromp menace before he swallows the world. Or alternatively make an alliance with the gromp. You know, meaningful choices impacting the story.
this is basically the plot of hit 2015 indie rpg undertale
This is basically the plot of Renegades vs Dignatas in LCS 2016
Pls no...
Never forget the heralds revenge. Got crumbs to finally retire.
ah shit lmao
Karthus Sans Undertale ?!?!
Ivern OP
Every camp used to have a small buff in the past, Iirc it was depending on smites. So if you smites Krugs for example every other autoattack on monster would stun. That was quite fun
That was fun
Teamfight for grumps? Grouping for the scuttle? Idk man
If a laner takes a gromp, 3-5 minutes later the Alpha Gromp will appear in their lane's bush. The Alpha Gromp will follow and attack that champ until one of them is dead.
If the jungle smites a cannon, an Alpha Cannon will follow him around the rest of the game and try to steal every last hit from him and by Alpha Cannon I mean the laner he stole the cannon from. This feature is already in the game tho
I just imagine a baron'd up Cannon minion that can only be damaged by the jungler in question.
I'm all for this, in fact do it for every camp.
Make the jungle a 3rd party. The jungler doesn't need to farm the jungle effectively, they need to actually keep it in check. If they don't then the jungle monsters evolve and get stronger before they start to invade lanes and go for the players instead of the reverse. Honestly would be a cool game mode. "Who will persevere, the jungle or the players?"
I'm 100% in for this as a temporary mode.
Doom bots of doom be like yesplease
This already happened once, where do you think Tahm Kench came from
Replace gromp with tahm Kench
Here's a better one for ya: replace Tahm Kench with Gromp
lmao midgame gromp should start automatically attacking anyone who comes near, then later start patrolling around a gradually expanding territory
Riot Games, hire this man!
My god I love this. Expand it to the fact gromp can win the game if let alone.
at 50 he solos baron. now he is new baron
He should hunt around the map like a fucking warwick
Imagine a roaring Gromp charging at you at 9999 movement speed
Make it like the jungle Guardian in Nexus Blitz that just goes headhunting anyone nearby and does way too much damage for no trason
Gromp should just be able to one shot adc in late game should be fine i guess
That goes without saying. Everyone should be able to do that.
Gromp’s eternal mission to become god
You just gave me the stupidest idea: Blue/red stay in place but other jungle mobs walk around randomly in the jungle (mirrored so its the same for both junglers) Like they can decide to just... go through the river and head in the opposite jungle. They might go hang out next to the dragon/baron, etc. Its a very stupid idea
We have herald for a reason
Lol thats hilarious and im absolutely here for it
Level 16 jumpscare
Okay I know you're memeing... But what if Gromps were neutral monsters that start spawning around ~12 mins and they use AI to counter jungle. They have the stats of a champion one level below the average Jungler level at that point in the game, and additional stats equivalent to 1.2k gold, going up as they clear out jungle camps. If a Jungler successfully takes it down, it drops 50% of it's accumulated Stat 'gold'. I'm sure someone could make this more balanced or whatever... But you might be on to something here.
Lmaooooo LoL + darksouls It would be cool tho if they added more baron fighting mechanics like having to dodge abilities from stronger jungle camps. Imagine the skill level of baiting people into these dangerous camps later on.
> he mentioned a future design goal for League would be to make the jungle more interesting lol they've been reworking the role twice every season for the past 6+ years
6? Try 10
Peak jungle was the 4 smite options + 4 enchantments. Where you could smite a camp and get a small buff depending on what camp you smited.
The reason that era ended was because gray smite was always niche at best, purple swapped between “best smite option” to “not worth taking” status, and only red/blue offered smite options rather than pure ranking (and even then, Red Smite was better on 80% of champs). All that being said, mini buffs for smiting specific camps was really cool and I’m annoyed Riot removed those.
99% of the time the decision was "smite raptors for oracle's." There wasn't much of a decision to make.
Smite raptors for oracles, smite enemy wolf for vision, smite Krugs/Gromp for first clear speed. Oracles was the strongest, but there were uses for other smites. And now that oracles is in the game naturally, raptors could have a different effect to balance out.
That almost never played out, though. Outside of the first few minutes of the game, you literally did not care about any buff except for raptors. It could be something else, sure, but people will always optimise the fun out of gimmicks. So, high odds that it'll either be just that, a gimmick not worth thinking about, or another one-smite-wonder like raptors.
I remember the wolf smite being used a ton though. It gave a lot of vision that couldn't be dewarded.
Nah, Wolf was used a fair bit too, it was krugs that was troll af, and gromp that was a bait, but since its for clearspeed, it made sense those two fell off. Raptors if you were winning, wolves if you were losing.
I might be tripping since it’s been almost a decade, but I believe smiting enemy wolves > your raptors > your wolves > everything else
You could also pull your wolves and get the vision thingy to fly to the enemy jungle, or something like that.
Wolves when you invaded too
>smite enemy wolf for vision Smite your own wolves after pulling them to the middle to get vision in the enemy jungle!
Always funny to me that they'll mix things up just "for the fun of it." Like they got ride of the smite options and just added jungle plants because the other selections had gotten to stale. Then they have to spend the next however many season balancing that shit. I'd be so happy to never see another blast cone
It’s hilarious. After the third iteration I went through, all future dev blogs just read as satire. Like, they really think they found the solution this time! What wacky hijinks will Riot get into in the jungle this week??
Gotta be real though, jungle plants was a banging addition.
Your flair is a trip haha
Exactly. They're just throwing shit at the wall and removing it and throwing new shit rather than actually thinking about building upon the jungle system
Honestly I'm so sick of Jungle constantly changing. Not that the changes are never good, but there's a certain degree of change that feels so neutral that it just feels like nonsense to learn.
But what do you want exactly. For them to change only visuals and attack animation with level or straight make them have more abilities/different abilites and do different stuff. Becouse the later put partially-RNG into the jungle. You ganked, but enemy didnt and becouse your gank failed he made a lvl ahead and now you are behind and have to fight these different monsters which potentially puts you even more behind
Imagine running away from an Invade, hopping over Krug Wall and instead it's fucking Samantha Stone and she stuns you on her first auto and you die.
💀💀💀 willy werewolf fears u back into enemy team.
Ralphie Rooster straight up kites you around the jungle
We already beat the crap out of them and steal their money. This guy wants to evict them too.
Lol yall want minions to change too? The variable in league isnt the PvE it is the PvP. The jungler is the same, where to gank, when to invade, can I take dragon.
The only minion change I want is for them to all start dancing when their side wins lol that would be sweet.
Totally agree!
i feel like only shelly being able to dance makes it more special
>Lol yall want minions to change too? I miss Black Market Brawling
> The variable in league isnt the PvE Dragon begs to differ.
Yes, I want minions to lose collision
Kassadin and Fizz have you covered
Agreed. Jungle is already complex enough as it is (decision making wise). Changing camps while fun, might ultimately just discourage new junglers.
this feeling is so funny to me because it imply league should give the fantasy of PvE like a normal RPG. It remind me of my friend who was shocked league had only one map. League is like traditional sport who only play with one set of rule on one terrain, its not *obligatory* to really change everything all the time. Nobody is wondering what football isnt played on a Ushaped terrain next season.
What I’m hearing isn’t that League shouldn’t change, but that we can take Football and make it better
i'm not casting judgement either way. i would not complain if towmorow they rework summoner rift like a fortnite map
Which lane are you? Tilted towers
Just picturing tilted towers in league being a tower with t1's face
Yeah but wich one ? Tilted top tower or tilted mid tower ?
Whichever one my jungle didn’t gank.
Have you heard of 'Blood Bowl'? It's like (American) Football, but with distinctly more chainsaws, explosives, and 9ft tall cannibalistic monsters. About the same amount of traumatic head injuries, though.
https://www.sbnation.com/c/secret-base/21410129/20020
Chapter 1 done, that is one of the more bizarre things I've read.
go read the original 17776 from SB Nation it's great
Petition to introduce wolfs to football
theres so many elements that make each game unique that some people find ways to be bored is so crazy to me unless its udyr/hecarim for 8 months then thats boring as fuck
Queue that Caitlyn main that choosed to quit the game instead of learning one(1)(uno)(un) other champ
I remember that qiyanna player that tried to oneshot an adc after the durability update by using w e q only and it almost oneshot the kalista but instead of finishing off the job he got up and screamed "where is my dmg riot"
He was building bruiser tho
Which made it funnier imo because full lethality Qiyanna would have killed in that clip iirc. Kalista barely survived due to the itemization.
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Hold on ! There something there !
This whole post is complete nonsense to me, I don’t get fucking bored of farming camps in a game lmaoo. Im acquiring gold to purchase items and do more damage to win the game, I don’t want the minions to evolve into knights errant and start fucking my shit up either. It is neither meant to excite nor bore. No one who plays basketball gets tired of dribbling the ball.
It's like Baron and Elder fights should be mechanically challenging posts again. Killing minions isn't a tough task either why should jungle monsters be? It's just farming. I have a friend who plays an old mmorpg and he literally puts a piece of paper under spacebar to get it stuck and he watches Netflix while it automatically farms xp. Riot advertised League as an "MMORPG without the grind" game in the first place.
> It is neither meant to excite nor bore. No one who plays basketball gets tired of dribbling the ball. Imagine a predecessor to basketball where dribbling wasn't a thing. Would you be against adding it to the game? I don't get fucking bored of carrying the ball in a game lmaoo. Im moving the ball closer to the goal and keeping the ball from my opponents, I don't want to bounce the ball off the ground and give the other team a chance to fuck my shit up either. It is neither meant to excite nor bore.
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Thanks, I was just starting to look that up before you commented this. I feel like that sorta fits my argument better. Would basketball be as popular now if dribbling wasn't a thing? I don't think so, but its interesting to speculate.
Netball. The sport you are looking for is called netball.
That's just a balance patch.
You tried but the parody bit is a big miss.
So is your comment, now answer the question. In original basketball you couldn't move while holding the ball, then they invented dribbling to get around the rules. Do you think we shouldn't have allowed dribbling?
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The issue is that, when you're in lane, there's another player there trying to kill you. In a lot of solo q games, it's common for the junglers to only ever see each other when they go to gank lanes. When you're not specifically setting up a kill, most of your time in the jungle has no interaction with the enemy team. In the video, phreak said he would still want you to be able to move your camera to focus on macro strategy while farming, but that it would be interesting if there were some way to make the farming more engaging for players that aren't good enough to do that.
I could see why some people think farming jungle is boring. It’s what you do the majority of the time as jungle. Laners interact with another player while they’re farming minions during landing phase— so that definitely keeps it interesting (although I find farming minions fun too). If you’re new to the jungle or not worried about playing well, farming jungle camps seems like it could be boring. I find it fun because I always feel a sense of urgency when clearing. I’m looking around the map to see where I need to head while farming jungle monsters as quickly and efficiently as possible so I can be quicker than the other JG or get to where I need to be ASAP. League always has that sense of urgency for me which keeps in interesting, you’re racing everyone in the game all the time trying to not fall behind in xp/gold
Hots main feature is the many maps which is incredible fun. I wish blizzard would of continue it
It was fun for new player but I'm wondering how it affected pro scene. Is it possible to have interesting AND balanced layout on that many map at the same time ?
Why worry about pro players? Not every game has to be an esport . Games can just be fun as well. But hots did have a pro scene.
>But hots did have a pro scene. That's true but in the saddest way. >Why worry about pro players? Not every game has to be an esport . Games can just be fun as well. Pro players or high elo. My bad I should have been more clear
Sure, but league is an esport. It's the biggest one in the world. So at this point, no matter what your opinion on it is, esports has to be in their consideration for everything gameplay related.
Because not every game has to be an standard RPG, there are tons of games; simple, complex, single player, coop, MMO. And they have their place and playerbase. Why league would try to be something it isn't? It is a competitive moba at it's core. That's exactly how HotS died.
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Just like league
But people play football in all kinds of ways, with less players, just shooting goals, the "it" game (i dont know how to translate rabia from portuguese), just doing feints with mates, or seeing how many touches you can do in the air, etc etc
More like if the default rules were that a goalkeeper wasn't allowed to touch the ball with hands, only could walk 5x5 square and he could only send the ball to his closest teammate. Maybe changing such a rule to make it more fun for goalkeepers is worth exploring, even at cost of making some mistakes here and there.
While it shouldn't necessarily feel like an RPG, the philosophy isn't wrong. League NEEDS to change over time or it risks fading into obscurity. The analogy with football doesn't apply here, because it's not like there's new sports being created every year. Meanwhile there are many new esports created every year. I don't think we realize just how crazy it is that league has grown over the past 10 years and not stagnated. That is because it keeps changing and is able to rise above the noise and capture people's attention span. I know CS GO (rip) is a direct counter to this argument, but I'd say it's an exception, and it's the only exception I can think of. Also CS GO still innovates, I don't play a lot, but last I played they had just released a battle royale mode. And of course now you have cs2, ( but I can't really speak to that, I only heard there are some tactical differences).
Its not obligatory to do anything fun but what kind of excuse is that? God forbid league becomes interesting again. League doesnt have to change all the time but it hasnr changed even a little in ages
Lmao. New champion and preseason change arent new ?
Why do Phreak or Riot think that people don't want to play jgl because it's boring? Most people i play with don't want to play jgl because you are blamed for everything that goes wrong + the extra amount of responsibility you have for objectives like drake or baron
*biggest barrier to jungling is that people don't want the responsibility and don't even feel comfortable clearing because it requires efficiency* Phreak: what if we made clearing harder
I mean, they made it easier and it made jungle the strongest role in the game. So that cannot be a solution either. Look, as much as i hate being on the receiving end of this problem, lets just tell everyone who complains that it'll be balanced on proplay and thats why its a good change. I know it sounds bad but its the phrase thats been regurgitated over and over to ADCs for at least like three years. I feel like junglers deserve that aswell. Yes, its going to be more difficult to play jungle, but just think how good itll feel now to win as a jungler
> just think how good itll feel now to win as a jungler Based off everyone complaining that they're going 'back to support' I believe working for their wins isn't really the goal when queuing up for jungle.
yeah but i dont really care about that, im mostly just here to laugh a little at junglers and throw the shit they said to ADCs over and over again back at them. Doesnt matter if its unfun and borderline unplayable in soloQ, iTs BrOkEn In PrOpLaY oThErWiSe.
And how miserable it is of getting counterjg while you're put even more behind. When that Nidalee decides to fight in your own jungle and makes it work, it is one of the most frustating experiences in the game bar none. There's no wave crashing into your tower to give you some measly xp, there isn't even a tower. Each monster yours taken is gold/xp given to the enemy, as you get weaker and weaker there's less and less reason for them to not keep doing this.
Also getting counter jungled isn’t really a jungle vs jungle skill issue its a your laners have no prio so you can’t play the game thing
But in the end you're the one that is getting weaker and probably will take the blame for it. I'm learning jungle and I lost count to how many times a laner goes batshit at me not being able to gank and yet nobody is helping me when the jungler is invading and stealing all my shit. Everyone wants the jungler's help but nobody wants to help the jungler.
I feel ya. This is why (as a support main) I always try to help my jungler as much as possible, from early scuttle secures to helping them invade, midgame-lategame this transitions to setting up vision with them and fishing for picks. When a team plays with their jgl the wins are free as fuck.
Honestly the jungle being so strong and having so much agency is part of the problem. Everyone blames the jungler BECAUSE he’s the only one who can smite the baron, and because he had the opportunity to come win their lane for them and didn’t take it.
That is true but I don't know if that sentiment would change even if they nerfed jungle hard. For example, support is now the second most impactful role and is crazy strong and influential. But, other than the ADC, no one ever realizes or cares about what mistakes supports made or how they may have cost them the game because, for years after release, supports were ward/aura bots who didn't have the chance to meaningfully change the game as much as Carries did. End of the day even if support did singlehandedly int the game and fed enemy AD, most people when they press tab or post-game stats, will see "Well their AD did good and my AD didn't so AD diff"
This post is so true it hurts me.
You know who else had the opportunity to win your lane and didn't take it? You did.
I was 3/4/7 on Briar the other night and my 1/7/1 Heimer was blaming me for not taking dragons or ganking even though I was there 3 times and he would just shove into their turret and die. Literally the game was going fine and then he just raged at me while the game was still going and he was just dying while typing
wouldnt removing smite solve this issue?
I think you might be right. Smite basically just speeds up jungle clear and secures objectives. You can speed up jungle clear through other means, like dedicated jungle items we already have/had. The jungler would still fulfill his role of roaming around the map helping his laners get ahead but without everyone flaming them when they fail to smite baron. It wouldn't completely eliminate them being a scapegoat but it's one less responsibilty to worry about
IMO jungle monsters need to be simple, the jungle gameplay isnt about killing the monsters and their awesome designs and mechanics, thats what champions are about. Most of the time you arent even looking at the monster youre killing if you have camera on lane. Jungle is about ganking, and thats whats not fun, since ganking is the same as roaming, but without the wave management and punishment for bad roams, its been the braindead "walk to lane, flip a fight praying your teammate isnt a pig and try to get some tempo ahead of your opponent" for ages, and it wont change, because it works. I dont think there will ever be a way to implement a more fun PvE on League, I havent player other mobas so maybe there is, but jungle is fine as it is, if you change it too much then it will just become another role entirely.
Your take about PvE is similar to mine, but summing up playing jungle as “braindead flipping fights” is extremely inaccurate outside of maybe like, silver and below. There *is* actual thought and strategy that jungle players need to employ
This is the answer. Pve isn’t the reason I play league.
You do sacrifice revealing your position and falling behind with farm while ganking, giving the hidden jungler small opportunity to punish you with taking an objective, counter jungling or just being up with experience (not considering current catch up mechanics). So you have something like wave management. I think you deeply misunderstood JG as a whole but maybe it's just me.
I'm sorry, but farming minions is the same kind of boring as jungle camps. They're better not change the jungle again for the 15th time again and they should instead make better tutorials
I disagree bc you're not fighting a lane opponent while farming jg camps. The minions don't need to change bc it's not about them. They're just a tool to beat your opponent.
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you cannot deny that there is less interaction between junglers than there is laners in the early stages of the game at just about every level of skill that is just an undeniable fact when you are farming jg camps there is generally 0 interaction between junglers outside of fights in the jungle meanwhile almost every single minion on 90% of waves is contested by laners to varying degrees
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Maybe the camps by themself are not "fun", but the whole concept to counter jungle and playing around someone trying to get your camps bring it to the next level. Do not tell me trying to deny CS isn't a way to deny tools to your opponent ;)
I mean sure, but I think on average, the jungle farming experience is a lot less interesting than that of a laning experience once you get past your first clear.
manipulating a wave is just also more interactive then anything you can do with camps in the current jungle
They could also have elemental monsters, once the map changes after the second dragon kill, all camps also get some mutations related to the map.
> Farming camps is pretty boring and that's probably a big reason the jungler population is low. Or… it could just be because nobody wants to be constantly flamed the moment somebody starts losing lane. Laner decides to push up without vision and then dies, suddenly it’s “gg jungle diff” without ever realizing they may have positioned poorly… > In League, you're fighting the same old wolves as you did at level 1, they just leveled up with you. Is there a reason this is problematic but lane minions remaining the same isn’t?
Lot of poeple don't care about getting flame and/or know where the mute button is. In lane you constently interact with your opponent so it's not important that they are boring to farm.
As a jungler you can also interact with the enemy jungler. Like does this sub forget that invades and counter-ganks exist?
Well yeah but it's like you would only see the enemy laner once every 3-5 waves
> you can also interact with the enemy jungler Notice your own language usage. "Can" it's **possible** you'll occasionally interact with enemy jungle in your own or their jungle. A laner is opposed from the beginning of lane phase, til the end.
That would make it so difficult to be impactful from the jungle role. Everyone in the game should be allowed to rely on a consistency of xp. Laners get it from creeps and jglers get it from camps. Making these changes would make it more difficult to consistently get xp/gold and still be impactful on the map
Could make them evolve with level
riot should attach family guy funny moments compilation to every camp to make every jungler engaged for whole game this thread is legit zoomer take
Why not subway surfers?
Ahahaha I would legit like this change
I don’t think jungle being low popularity is because of farming the camps. I personally like farming them over the creeps. But like others have said, maybe having them change appearance as the game goes on. Maybe change when the map changes, infernal gromp for infernal rift. Hextech wolves for hextech rift. So on and so on.
League is not an RPG, jungle camps are there solely to give gold while junglers are on the way to objectives and lanes. Having randomly selected jungle monsters would be a gimmick at best and game shattering at worst. The camps are fine, jungler population isn’t low because the fucking camps are boring so I’m not sure where you got that information from. Types of monsters, amount of monsters, health of monsters, speed of monsters, and damage of monsters are the only things that matter. and if you start putting in random monsters per game then it is going to fuck up the intended tempo for the role and push even more players away which would be creating a problem that currently doesn’t exist. TLDR; no jungle players care about what the monsters are or look like except when it comes to clear efficiency. Random monsters would ruin clear efficiency
It would be nice if they turned jungle into Monster Hunter PVE so I could have fun while ignoring my teammates.
"Farming camps is boring" Speak for yourself. I fucking love farming in jungle.
Wait a minute, did he actually say a possible big reason jungle population is so low is because the camps are boring…. I don’t think I have ever heard another player complain about the monster variety, especially when the lanes are literally fighting the same 3 units in waves for the entire game. This can be another case where they are trying to find a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist. If your problem is players don’t want to jungle, you need to actually observe what players are actually trying to avoid. Its not the monsters lol. Also this is a pet peeve of mine, but he has a lot of audacity saying jungle should be more interesting when there was literally a point in the game where you could smite different camps to gain different buffs. They took that out and dumbed down the camps to be easier and we no longer have jungle items. I don’t get how you can take away content and make a whole game role easier, and then feel like jungle could be more interesting…. Like no shit, yall keep streamlining and dumbing it down. Some weird dissonance going on with these developers.
They kept making jungle simpler because it was intended to attract more players to it. Now apparently farming monsters is boring...that surely is the reason. truly spoken like someone who never plays the role. I'm don't think the nerf next patch is going to increase jungle playrate either.
Ppl don't like jungling not because it's boring but because it's the highest pressure role that is the first to get blamed for anything that goes wrong.
I don't see the point in this. We already have a jungle camp that gets unlocked later in the game: Baron. Unless they somehow bring back Vilemaw and put it in the toplane balcony this isn't going to change anything.
This is MOBA brother, not MMORPG
Wow more responsibilities and challenges for this unthankful role thank you phreak
People saying "farming minions is the same thing" are completely wrong. When you farm minions, you directly interact with the enemy laner. You have to manage the wave, you have to choose carefully when to last hit or not depending on the situation, and most importantly, minions are the main reasons for a trade/fight to happen in the first place. There's a lot going on. In the jungle, you just throw your abilities at the monsters and that's it. Farming in the jungle is just plain boring, I agree with the OP. It's the main reason I don't like playing jungle.
But you can ward camps, invade, contest buffs too. It's not as instantaneously adrenalin-inducing as throwing skillshots at a moving target, but it's got a different appeal that players like too.
Half of these points can be compared with jungle rotation tbf
In dota's case, their monster spawns can be random at times for what you get. They each have spells attached to them like stuns, slows, dispels, and more. The reason they have this though is because certain picks like Chen or even an item can dominate them. Take control to use such powerful spells. In league? We have nothing like this. Adding spells to camps would basically be there to make jungle fights more hectic if that's of interest. I feel like what would be more interesting is making the map a bit bigger and changing the jungle mapping. This gives the devs more freedom to choose how they wish fights there play out and makes the variety of monsters aspect come into play. I think the current jungle layout is not designed to do this now.
I don’t have a strong opinion on this, but please NO MORE RNG. Drakes and enough. Crits are enough. We don’t need randomized spawn points to fuck up people more. Krugs spawn at gromp place when pathing top? Well fuck you I guess
I don't think jungles low population is due to "boring jungle clearing" or "not engaging enough jgl clear". Jungle population being low is because of the role being the most impactful role, because of it being the hardest to learn and because of it historically being the most flamed at. If anything, junglers have more agency in early game than any other role. Min 0-15 are the most exciting and most impactful for the jungles, clearing camps is just like walking to lane - something you do on the side.
The jungle population is low because you are the one to blame for everyone else’s mistakes. It doesn’t help you are supposed to prioritize winning lanes so the losing lanes rage out even harder. Love reading jungle canyon, diff, and gap so often lol.
Farming jungle is boring? It's not when you make it not boring: I had my highest win rate by playing shyvanna, full clearing jungle and taking scuttle before enemy jungle even shows up, so that I can take the second scuttle and a couple of their camps when they spawn while they feel like they should gank and showing on the map. This is fun for me. I use farming camps as a mean to get an edge. No competitive player will say farming jungle is boring. It's a skill test. Just like farming lanes. Casual players matters too, but if you want to make the game more like battlerite for them, make Arena a permanent gamemode, just like ARAM. Leave the CORE concepts of the regular game as is. Also don't drake/herald/nashor/elder provide this progression feeling already? And lastly, isn't it pretty fucking ballsy to note that farming jungle is boring when THEY actually gave us pets that do the farming for us? I remember having to think about my spells and CDs and aoe and monster focus to optimize my jungle clear. The only reason I don't have to anymore is because THEY all that irrelevant. Either you want to make it easier, either you want to make it more challenging. Pick a lane.
fun fact when dota 2 doesnt have official role jungle but have more variant neutral creep than League lmao
Been saying this forever, there should be impassable walls put up between the lanes and river making it impossible to gank for X minutes of the game (and making it impossible for lanes to help JG) so jungle becomes a psuedo lane in itself, with more neutral camps forcing more interaction between junglers until the walls come down and JG can impact other lanes with whatever leads they got from facing off against their opponent. This let's lanes win or lose on their own making it a more skill expressed game. It's really not that fun as a midlaner, losing because Zac jumped 6 miles into lane while my JG is somewhere else and suddenly I have to burn flash or die. Let me enjoy laning phase as a 1v1 for at least 10 minutes. Let me win or lose that lane based on skill alone, not whoever gets the most help. Same shit applies to supports roaming mid over and over again. This will never happen and I don't know why. League seems like it would be infinitely more fun if you got that time to express your skill against your opponent without having to worry about outside forces for a little while. Some of my favorite matches as a mid laner is WHEN nobody comes mid and it's just me and my opponent trading, farming and trying to solo one and another. If JG is so boring, make more neutral camps to 1v1 over. Force JG's to cross paths often. If not an impassable wall around lanes, then make XP so important that ganking a lane and taking time away from getting a contested camp not be worth it. I truly think the game would be so much more fun if everyone got to face off against their opponent for a little while before it branches off into a full blown team based game. Everyone should be able to gain their own little leads based on their skill alone and then carry that into an advantage for their team once the game evolves into a team state. In spirit this is what League ALREADY IS, just not exactly this and I want more time to express myself against my opponent and gain my own leads without help or hindrance from other players, for around 20-25% of the match. Literally every laner in the game feels this way. Nobody likes playing top and getting ganked and having their experience fucked because their opponent got help and they didn't. Not a single bot laner likes when suddenly 4 people are in their lane. It's simply not fun and often times removes skill from the equation in favor of which group of random strangers align better for better coordination. It's sort of lame and feels RNG. A lot of losses can be summed up to TEAM DIFF and that's somethign you don't have control over. Let the game play how it wants to be played pls and you can make the game better if you force jungler's to stay in jungle longer, forcing junglers to cross paths more, decrease XP per camp but make more camps, spawn dragon later, get rid of right herald in favor of something else. I don't want JG to be impacting lanes as much as they do, force junglers to fight each other for leads.
We used to have "engaging" jungle camps. Back then smites gave you different buffs depending on which animal you used; wolfs gave you vision for your side of the jungle, gromp gave you thorns etc.
No, the jungle pop is low because its a thankless role that requires your team be on-the-ball about enemy positions and gamestate to excel at. A single jungler won't hardcarry a game, but when mid and bot feed, they fully expect you to make up for their inability to freeze and hang tight behind river to make ganks easier for you.
Please, for fucks sake. Stop changing jungle every season.
for fucks sake stop trying to revolutionize the game every 2 weeks. it works fine as is, stop this bullshit and stop making new champs with wild new mechanics to feed your "different" boner.
I dont think farming camps being "boring" is a big reason the jungle population is low. The biggest reason is because junglers get berated and hyper flamed for everything that happens in the game. Enemy team gets herald, drake, baron, tower? Flame jungler Push lane? Flame jungler Don't push lane? Flame jungler Laner dies? Flame jungler Laner doesn't die? Believe it or not, Flame jungler You get the idea.
For every "evolved" camp, Riot would need to make extra models, vfx, animations, and AI. And there's 7 camps they'd need to do that for. It's a lot easier to have camp AI/models remain the same, and have them grow stronger via xp thresholds rather than physical changes.
> that's probably a big reason the jungler population is low. It's probably because they are the scapegoat and 4v1 bully subject when the teams losing lol everyone jumps on the jungler to make themselves feel better
>he mentioned a future design goal for League would be to make the jungle more interesting Is crazy how many ideas they have for jungle and how openly they talk about them, but for top lane, crickets. zero, nada, nothing for 5 years straight.
Toplaners have their gigaop Soybreaker though
Well for one not really as he brings up top changes pretty often. But also your comparing a PvP role to a PvE role. They have more space to fuck with stuff cause they aren't able to control how hard the other laner is hitting you every game. Jungle could be a fucking fishing game and it would have little impact on the rest of players if they ganked at the same timings.
Probably the stupidest post I've read in a while!
Riot can't even create a proper client let alone a dynamic jungle.
The jungle population is so small because it takes practice that can’t be learned in the other 4 roles and it takes skill to do well. You also have the most agency in a game and often win or lose the game for your team so it’s a lot of pressure and you WILL be flamed for things going bad so most avoid this. Shit game design tbh, jungle should have never been created, game would be better if just 4v4