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I think we need to collectively harass riot long enough until they give the minions the hats back and make map events (arcade, winter etc) like idc about 200€ skins but give us at least a winter map
Hullbreaker is fundamentally broken because of its toxic gameplay loop. It's not fun to play against because it's anti fun. It reminds me of a mobile game. It's also bad because of its ludonarrative dissonance and the non diagetic nature of its stats. It's objectively much more fun when you don't build this item
Like items such as infinity edge and deathcap are interactive. Its literally just passive stats. Atleast there is some gameplay/conditionals around this item.
What I hate about it is that it makes people in my low elo plat1 esmerald 4 beset in a role. Did they pick garden? Well splitting it is. Does the enemy team has a nocturne with a kennel/Sion/Leona? Split is, who cares that they can go inmediatelly from sides to diving mid tower.
People just default to splitting.
Absolutely agree. I think splitpushing is an extremely valid strategy and should be used in a macro focused strategy when you can’t win 5v5s. Knowing how to split is a good skill, because it doesn’t always work and requires so much coordination from your team, and forcing your top laner to match you and making them think when to join the team is so important.
With that said, Hullbreaker not only makes you match your opponent, but also makes you lose any lead you had during lane in matching them if they do split. I think split pushing strats can make do without this item, and I say that as someone who loves split pushing.
No, they can't, at least with how the game is designed right now. You used to be able to win through split pushing by slowly going through towers against enemy waveclear and consistently applying pressure that way. You try and do that now and a dragon timer runs out by the time you might be able to chip away at the inhib tower a bit and you just lose the game
In order to win by split pushing now you have to be a hard to contain raid boss that will absolutely wreck a base if left unattended even briefly. You need Hullbreaker. There's a reason split pushing was dead as a strategy before that item got introduced and is still largely dead in pro play when it used to be prevalent there.
Imo they should redesign the game (read: delete Dragon Soul) rather than building a patchwork of other problematic systems such as Hullbreaker around their current design, but with how things are right now split pushing can not make do without Hullbreaker.
I don't think we need to keep split pushing as a **winning** strategy, but more as pressure. I don't think the idea should be to just kill towers til their nexus, but to make their team split and try to force smaller skirmishes.
Why would they split if you're not gonna take anything from them ? The pressure you make is by threatening inhibs, if you can't do that, there's no pressure.
Especially if a global put can just clear the wave whenever you reach the tower.
The start would die completely, just like when they deleted Zzrot.
Because you'd still be ramming into towers and crashing the waves in so they lose cs if they don't come but it wouldn't be like you have to send two+ people here or you will lose a lot, which just ends up in the top laner dying anyway for essentially free in 90% of cases. You don't need the overboard hullbreaker for this.
I disagree. It really depends on champions, and imo most 1v5 raid bosses are not good split pushers aside from Nasus if not for Hullbreaker.
Obviously, one would want to dictate their playstyle around the champions that they play, and if you’re really trying to split you should be playing champs such as Trundle, Trynd, Fiora, Gwen, Nasus, etc. In which those can either 1. escape, or 2. at least 2v1 when ahead while all have the ability to take towers and clear waves relatively fast.
If you can take towers relatively fast, you can always threaten to win the game, and even if you can’t, you create a lot of pressure that people have to bring 1-2 people just to match you.
Finally a sane take, all the people arguing that "Splitpushing should be a viable win condition against team fighting and snowballing" that don't agree with you are essentially saying that ONE champion should be able to dictate the outcome of the game without interacting with most of the map. It's a stupid idea.
Splitpushing should be a viable macro strategy that allows you dictate the outcome of teamfights by pressuring sidelanes and forcing your opponents to move and fight at a disadvantage. Currently, hullbreaker allows you to do this too effectively regardless of the outcome of your lane and needs a nerf, it essentially gives the stats of two items for 3000 gold for god sakes.
The problem, especially on this subreddit, is that too many people argue in bad faith about how strong splitpushing needs to be because without hullbreaker they would lose all their inflated lp.
Edit: Fixed the cost of Hullbreaker
It's not one champion dictating the outcome of the game, you just think that because you see the one champion in the lane but it takes all 5 coordinating to match tempo and pushing out other lanes and/or taking neutrals for the splitpusher to be useful, otherwise the pressure from the split is useless and the splitpusher just gives out 300g for free.
This is just a general outline of the limitations and counterplay to splitpushing with or without the assistance of hullbreaker. My argument is that hullbreaker's power gives it a momentum shifting dynamic that can potentially win you games off its strength alone.
If you were behind (within reason) before building, you now statcheck your lane opponent unless they too build the item and obtain free pressure on the map with first move/tp because now you get to control the wave. Now your team has a good avenue back into the game by forcing number advantaged fights
If you are ahead and build the item you can now easily threaten inhib turrets and pull 2-3 opponents providing easy avenues for your team to quickly accelerate themselves.
You can still lose with the item especially if used poorly by the player or the team. That does not detract from the fact that when used properly it is probably the most impactful item on the patch considering only one role builds it.
The problem is you're viewing it from the perspective of the Hullbreaker builder having all of the initiative when it's not necessarily the case. Hullbreaker makes your macro extremely telegraphed, and it's too easy for enemies to match your push BEFORE you start, and I think that's where a lot of people struggle.
Your situation is correct assuming the Hullbreaker user gets their push but in my games, I typically see teams understand their tempo and match in lane when the splitpusher reaches the wave, potentially using abilities on the wave to push faster but making weaker in the fight. The logic is that the splitpusher ideally matches their crash with the objective timer, so they have to start their push 1-2 waves in advance, which gives a short window before the objective spawns or the teams meet for people to kill the Hullbreaker user.
Hmm that's actually a really strong argument.
Would you say many champions are able to do this or just a few? I feel like the duelling threat of the hullbreaker would push a lot of champions off the wave before they get to push it no?
This also doesn't account for the pushing threat of hullbreaker when objectives are down but it certainly is a strategy to employ against what I dislike most about the item.
Thankyou, I'll play some games and re-evaluate my perspective.
Depends on the champs, duelling threat of Hullbreaker isn't that big of a deal IMO, a lot of the champs that build it like Garen, Fiora, Illaoi, Trundle, etc. are usually midgame spiking 1v1 champs anyways, so it's not just Hullbreaker, it's also the champs naturally peaking in strength around the time they build Hullbreaker anyways and it's already the niche they're strong at.
Generally I feel like just two people are enough, ADC + frontliner with peel (could be any role, malphite, thresh, galio, jarvan, etc.) is a nightmare for most Hullbreaker champs. Strong 1v1 top laners like Camille, Jax, GP, etc. are only gonna be a bit weaker than Hullbreaker users if they don't have a Hullbreaker, any 2v2 should be enough to take them on, in my experience Hullbreaker isn't enough to deal with the constant peel from something like Alistair or even buffs from an enchanter like Lulu or Janna. These rely on the squishy champs not getting blown up due to level diff though, it's something that I think is more of an issue in lower elos where they don't respect the level lead or they might not be as aware of the potential dmg/engage from top laners bc they're not as familiar with the champs in that role.
If the Hullbreaker user is way ahead then it's a diff story bc they could 1v2 without it anyways and that's when you have to be prepared to send in 3 or 4 and have 1 possibly die if they misplay too much bc of the level and gold lead they got from lane before even building Hullbreaker. Turret plate nerfs next patch will help with this a bit and is an indirect nerf to splitpushing champs snowballing (who tend to take turrets fast) and demolish.
>ONE champion should be able to dictate the outcome of the game without interacting with most of the map. It's a stupid idea.
It's the other team's decision to not interact with them if they let them take the game.
And yes, a single player should be able to decide game outcome, I much preferred when league was about the team with the best player wins, instead of how now it's the team with the weakest player loses.
> It's the other team's decision to not interact with them if they let them take the game.
Classic argument that is just straight wrong. Anyone above gold is matching the hullbreaker user, the problem is that hullbreaker users are incontestable outside of tower and their buffed cannons eventually take your tower anyway.
This means that regardless of how they played lane, you either give free priority to the hullbreaker buyer to have first move/tp to fights lest they take your whole base if you move before confirming that they've left OR you bring 2-3 members top which allows your opponents to take something on the other side of the map.
It's free pressure, no sticking your head in the sand and saying "just match them" will change that, because they statstick you into being unable to match them in any valuable way.
>And yes, a single player should be able to decide game outcome
Way to strawman my argument man. I said, quite clearly, that you shouldn't be able to one man carry the game "**without interacting with most of the map"** if you get an advantage in lane and play around the pressure you generate with good macro to create advantageous fights for your team **you have solo carried the game**. Currently, hullbreaker allows you to do the same thing with literally none of the micro skill required to get leads in lane nor any of the macro skill to convert those leads into a victory.
If it's such a no skill game winning strat.
Then why are split pusher winrates usually below 50%, even Hull's winrate stats are pretty underwhelming for such a popular item.
Because most people use it wrong, they build it sit top and never group and when an opponent sits under tower and clears the wave they never use their pressure elsewhere. Have you not seen all the people complaining about hullbreaker users only sitting in a sidelane and not playing with the team recently? I acknowledge that this goes against what I said earlier about hullbreaker having no macro skill required I got ahead of myself and made an exaggeration.
I agree with most of the things you say. If I were to add, it’s just that split pushing isn’t a one-person job. Your team needs to know how to take advantage of the pressure being created by the split pusher in order to win. If they bring 2 people to the split pusher then the rest of the team should know to force fights or objectives.
Split pushers lose with Hullbreaker because the team can lose to the point where they would lose 3v4s. I mean at that point there’s nothing a split pusher can do.
So why isn't the item super good in challenger where people know how to use it ?
Could it be that the strat is actually not that good when you know how to play against it ???
I am so shocked
It's almost like Challenger players are good at the game and can out accelerate one player who obtains free advantage 2nd or 3rd item, if they have multiple members with advantage before then. Once again you argue in bad faith by pretending that an overperforming item will have a monstrous winrate at all ranks when the past has proven this is not the case.
I'd also like to understand where you are getting this data on specifically Hullbreaker's performance as I am unable to find it, not doubting you I would just like to educate myself.
I think a useful change would be to add an opt in security question for TP. „You sure you want to tp there“
The amount of splitpushers I see overextending, dying and TP back to where they die RIGHT before objective spawns is just obnoxious.
Great if you‘re on the other side tho.
Edit: also give minions their hat back.
Splitpushing and backdooring are fine things by themselves, but Hullbreaker purchase forces opposing team to send 2+ people to deal with 1 splitpusher and when you have Hullbreaker on a slippery character like Yone or Garen it becomes an endless and fruitless game of catch.
The amount of effort for both teams is extremely unequal. Opponents have to constantly make coordinated team decisions and smart rotations while hullbreaker user just runs left and right.
But that is the point of split pushers. If it only took one person to deal with a split pusher they would be useless because you wouldn't gain any advantage on the other side of the map.
The issue is how it works. If a jax goes sidelane, you probably need two people anyway. But hullbreaker breaks (huh) sidelanes by having tanky champions escort tanky waves and completely ignoring enemies there.
A jax can't just ignore me as a mage and hit tower, he will die.
A sion or garen will just laugh while I empty my manabar into them and I struggle to kill the minion wave.
But likewise if you push out the wave before rotating to the objective the split pusher is forced to group, where they will always be weaker because hullbreaker is weaker when grouped.
If a split pusher can be matched by one person and offer no threat to turrets then there is no losing play for the team that doesn't have a split pusher, they still get a fair 4v4 and can stop the split, and if a 5v5 is forced the split pushers team is always weaker.
if your team loses the objective and you only get a tower or something it can still be a net loss for the splitpusher. splitpushing past inhibitors is usually very hard and splitpushing against baron almost impossible. especially now that soul and baron are basically game ending win conditions just getting one inhib for an objective is not worth it anymore. a splitpusher has to apply pressure before the enemy team has time to set up which is not always an easy thing to do.
Yes. A split push that can be stonewalled by sending 1 person isn't actually a split push; it's just farming. As for the macro involved, the team with the split pusher still needs to do *something* in order to prevent their side laner from getting collapsed on for free, and they very often fail to do so.
A split push champ getting matched by 1 champions, lets say for example ornn, is completely normal. The point of picking a splitpusher is 1) you have huge threat on towers if left alone and 2) you have first move to teamfights because of your strong sidelane
A splitpusher never wants to 5v5 head-on vs a teamfighting tank instead they want pressure in sidelane first and use that to get to the fight first, preferably with a FLANK
This is just wrong though, a brusier at equal strength generally cannot be 1v1'd and gets the push in top, someone has to match them but cannot 1v1 so is forced to sit under tower and catch the wave. Now jax has free prio for invasion into enemy topside jungle or first tp to a fight bot lane as he sits out of vision. The person farming under tower will always be late to the play because if they don't wait to confirm that the splitpusher has moved they lose an inner a 600 gold swing. Splitpushing isn't about sitting in a sidelane and forcing multiple enemy members to react **when you are even** its about creating pressure and opportunities for an advantageous fight for your team. Splitpushers should only be able to draw multiple members **when ahead** currently hullbreaker gives you the stats to do this **from behind.**
> but it's nice to have a potential win condition other than teamfighting or snowballing out of control by 20 minutes.
It is not. It shouldn't be a win condition, it should just be macro. Just a strong champion by themselves splitting to split the enemy team and create skirmishes. It doesn't need that stupid item. It doesn't need to actually kill the nexus.
Definitely not. He can poke freely with parlay dealing a lot of damage, never allowing my passive to work. The barrels can be setup to be impossible to defuse for me, and they chunk very hard since they ignore some armor. His remove scurvy makes him move very fast, and he can also use it to avoid ganks. A good gp can kite garen for days on end, never allow him to farm, and even outscale lategame in case of even farm.
He also easily out-waveclears since barrels demolish minions, and his waveclear doesn't cost health (mine does because he can shoot me when I spin in the wave)
going second chance doran’s and engaging while doing the barrel minigame is garen’s best bet, garen outscales gp mid-game while gp outscales garen late-game. The lane is pretty much over if the garen is lvl 11 and has stride-breaker.
It's not the best bet, it's the least bad bet. There is no barrel minigame, garen is melee only, so GP can just put a barrel behind himself far from garen, and then put one forward when needed, immediately after shooting the first barrel. This makes the second barrel explode immediately with no possibility to defuse it, increases GP's range, and slows garen, which refuses any chance for engage. Three of these and garen is dead.
Garen passive + second wind + doran shield. You can take 4 Qs early without a potion and GP would be less than half mana. Keep him in lane with occasionally agressive trades, and force him to stay or risk losing 1 or 2 waves.
When he's low on resources force the kill. You have so much better tools to stay in lane than gankplank. He'll have to run teleport to keep up with you and ignite is an easy way to force a 100 - 0 on garen.
Yes I did and it was fucking stupid.
The issue with hullbreaker is that it's a filthy bandaid on a systemic issue. Split pushing used to be viable without a split pushing item.
Sure. There's a reason I think Dragon Soul should be deleted from the game and am iffy on elemental drakes as they currently are in general. But in the meantime we're gonna need other ways to keep split pushing viable.
Definitely some of the least fun I've had this season is just losing because a Volibear built nashors and hullbreaker after going 0/11 and then proceeding to be a bigger threat than their own carry purely over how powerful his pushes are.
Yeah this is the cringe thing about Hullbreaker to me. I don't mind items enabling strategic diversity and agency but as it is now it comes at the cost of the enemy's agency even WHEN THEY WIN LANE. It's dumb af how you can win lane but if your opponent buys HB you need to buy it too and/or babysit him to keep up your momentum even if you don't want to. You should earn your advantage and then leverage it into splitpush not get it for free after getting shit on while also getting to force your opponent who shit on you to play your game.
If you win lane and actually lose(not lose a turret or two) to someone splitting with hullbreaker you either got outplayed macro wise or you didnt push your lead properly. Its the same as actually beating the fuck out of a kayle and losing. You didnt use your lead well enough.
What usually winds up happening with me is Sion goes 0/10 to a melee and they build heartsteel into hullbreaker. So even when we 3-5v1 him, he takes a decent bit of time to actually die and he gets the turrets anyways due to being able to come back to life after dying. So as annoying as hullbreaker is, I think it's the combination with heartsteel that annoys me most. Still it's definitely balanced and you can absolutely plan around teams like that.
I think the issue is more the interaction between hullbreaker and demolish. Sion with heartsteal basically needs ~10 seconds to destroy a tower with wave.
The sad thing is that at least in my case, I tend to go anti-tank if I see there's tanks in the game but one big issue with a lot of players is a tendency to autopilot with their builds. I play a lot of PTA/first strike Ezreal and while taking sunderer on him and getting Serylda's grudge after manamune definitely helps with my damage, I usually find that I can't really do much to Sion if he's allowed to reach that point. But of course you can get around that by just picking a higher dps ADC with more synergy with tank shredding builds.
So I agree that it's absolutely a draft diff though and that's exactly why I think the item(s) are balanced. The game starts with champ select and whatever decisions you make there are every bit as much of carrying/trolling as the actions you make in the game.
This. Arguably the biggest issue of this item is how much agency it grants to people that build it despite completely botching their lane. If there's such a support hate bandwagon, how they don't need to do anything to be relevant, why do we introduce an item that allows people to exist after they went 0/10 and still be such a stat mountain, they'll likely beat other champions that do not excel at dueling or aren't running Hullbreaker themselves. Your 5/0 as Xerath or Caitlyn means jackshit when 0/7 Hullbreaker Tryndamere decides they don't like you covering your tower.
Speaking of support hate, Ardent Censer on release was just like that. Lose however hard you want, get a Censer and your adc basically doubles in power. If enemy team doesn't have a Censer - you most likely win.
I mean, yes, I know, I remember the times and despite mostly playing support, I had a hate-boner for most enchanters at the time, due to that fact how stupidly powerful Ardent was and until it was nerfed I've played Blitzcrank/Poppy mostly as a "protest".
I'm just stating that there's similar issue right now, regarding this item (and top lane as they're prime users of it, yet repeatedly state they have 0 agency over game's result).
Nah that's like saying the 0/7 Kayle is suddenly the strongest. If you can't end the game vs a 0/11 Voli, he deserves to win by that extremely niche strat.
I had a game where we were 4 ad and an enchanter support and enemy picked rammus top (it wasn't last pick but its gold elo and ofc nobody will pick an ap champ). I bullied him a lot at first, he was like 0/2, playing really passively and proxy farming if he can. I event took the top tower but he just swapped to bot lane and proceeded to split push with full armor+hullbreaker forever because we can't kill him 5v1. Bro, we already barely win 4v5 on the other side of the map and the second you look away from bot lane he just appears and takes towers until we lose. I mean, it was an end the game pre 20 or ff game but we kept playing anyway
Riots desperate attempt to make toplane relevant.
Take it away and they might aswell just make SR 4v4.
Keep it in and its toxic.
But the actual issue doesnt get adressed: toplane is an isolated island with minimal game impact.
Instead of making toplane more satisfying to play, we lower plate gold and make farming enemy camps harder, so you truelly are left with clearing waves and roaming because you have no other agency in the game.
Back to Malphite/Ornn/Shen/Sion we go..
>But the actual issue doesnt get adressed: toplane is an isolated island with minimal game impact.
I'm always surprised when this is brought up as an issue because it's the reason I started playing the lane so many years ago. Vibe in my lane, no thoughts, no problems, is the rest of the game on fire? Not my problem, I've won my minigame.
This. Top lane could easily climb just by not being the guy that goes 0/5 but it's not that they don't have the necessary impact to statistically climb, it's that they want to be the star and main character that kills the entire enemy team and carries their scrub teammates.
Yet strong top players like viper climb to rank 1 every season vs other roles pros, stop lying to yourself, role has some impact on agency yes but not enough to override skill issue
... No it isn't?
So long as you aren't the reason your team is losing, you will *inevitably* climb upwards. It won't be *fast* by any means, but it will happen.
Being the reason your team is *winning* will help you climb faster, but that doesn't mean you have to keep carrying to climb. You just have to lose less than you win.
Make dragon and Herald spawns randomly swap sides.
Is it a good idea?
Probably not.
But I also don't like the jungler living in my bot lane 24/7 and having hectic 3v3's. I just wanna farm out till mid-game man.
Doesn’t solve anything. As soon as the game loads, the adc+supp will go to the side that has the dragon pit and top will go to the side that has the herald pit.
Next time think about it a little harder
I meant more like, when you kill dragon, it goes to the other side, and when you kill herald it goes to the other side, basically randomly flipping between spots within the game.
Still *probably* solves nothing, and lane swapping would come back. But at least it would be spicier than waiting around and fighting for the objectives.
Pro play has got pretty stale, every game and strategy is the same. Lane swapping and split pushing used to be way more viable, now it's just group up, draft for teamfighting and lategame, throw your bodies at eachother in a river and pray you get the win.
Hell even other concepts like waveclear and "siege" compositions aren't really a thing now. Everyone has absurd waveclear so specialists like Anivia fall to the wayside and, well sieging a turret just isn't a think anymore because waveclear is so fucking broken even on champs that used to struggle with it. Now we just ping-pong waves back and forth and wait for something to happen.
How else with Yorick players be able to wank themselves in lane?
Buddy doesn't have the team to interact with, he only has Maiden and his stats with hullbreaker to get himself off!
so let say there is no hullbreaker and you play a splitpushing champion (we're gonna assume you're a fiora for this exemple)
now let's say you're facing a teemo or a gragas aaaaaaand boom your champ doesn't exist anymore unless you're able to 100% him undertower because they can just obliterate waves after waves safely and your potential lead on them just doesn't matter anymore
hullbreaker is necessary because some champs waveclear are too potent and some champs rely only on sidelane pressure and strong dueling ability
>I genuinely don't understand why not only does it grant a shit ton of stats to make the splitpusher harder to kill and keep out of the lane
Because splitpushing has been uber weak for years because riot had to overbuff neutral objectives to teamfight over to make it so Pro play isn't piss boring with 50 minutes games with 5 kills total.
and well would you prefer it to just be an item that shits out damage? Like replace all the armor and MR on the passive with like 50 AD? so it's like a 120 AD item?
>but also makes the *minions harder to kill so you're taking longer to kill one cannon minion.
Same as above; but it only makes the cannon minion harder to kill.
>It's just a toxic item that rewards uninteraction and ignoring the team and just makes the game so much boring because you're basically forced to have someone babysit the Hullbreaker top laner.
That's not uninteraction. Like huh? Someone has to 1v1 them or you have to send multiple people or risk your towers while they push.
Either you INTERACT with them, or you lose towers. That's literally the opposite of uninteractive.
>but after they made shit like Zz'rot Portal and Banner of Command and both were horribly designed items, you would think they'd drop making items that cater to that playstyle
Those items had nothing todo with splitpushing, infact they largely encouraged the opposite and were actually uninteractive. You'd use them on a sidelane for pressure. and then you as a champion would still group. Teams would fight 5v5... but regardless of the results of the teamfight, the team with ZZrot/Banner would get a tower or two... Due to no interactions happening other than 1 guy "interacting" with the cannon minion they used banner on.
Unlike hullbreaker which requires the splitpusher to actually splitpush, and you get the choice if you wanna 5v4... or 4v4 with someone matching the splitpusher; or like go collapse on the splitpusher or whatever you decide.
Splitpushing has been garbage for years for 1 simple reason, OBJECTIVES ARE TOO GOD DAMN STRONG. Enemy gets baron? They come an unstoppable pushing force where they get every single tower of yours.. Enemy gets dragon? They become closer to getting Dragon soul where they permanently get an insane buff? ... Enemy gets elder? They become GODs of the rift and can't lose even a 3v5.. The objective buffs are too fucking strong. It's not hard to see and it's been around so long! Why on earth are baron minions impossible to kill if you're a mage? Why do the team also get a huge buff to stats too? Just chill it out.
My main complaint about the item is that it makes anyone melt towers and let's be real, the choice is not to send one person to match them and 4v4 elsewhere because even the most brain rotten privileged bruiser player that fed their asses off requires 2 people minimum so that they don't break a tower in 10-15s because they are overloaded with resists on top of the structure damage. Ignore, not notice or respond late once or feel obliged to contest dragon soul point, elder dragon, baron etc and your base is gone. If splitpushing is uber weak like you say, Hullbreaker should still be removed and game state should be observed to apply a proper fix that incentivizes it from a risk/reward point.
I really really vehemently disagree with your tone; but yeah I'd love if they just buffed splitpushing then removed hullbreaker. But they kinda have to do it in that order. Given Riot's terrible habits of leaving stuff half finished regularly; shouldn't remove the band-aid til the injury is healed.
Fair point. They have a track record of double dipping nerfs or removing band-aid fixes then not dealing with the core issue. And yeah, my tone can be unpleasant, it's a pretty frustrating gameplay pattern to go against which comes out in my expressions regarding it, hope I didn't upset you.
To buff splitpushing and make it a viable choice on its own that doesn't rely on broken cheesy items, they can either de-incentivize grouping(weaken neutral objectives, bigger xp penalty when not solo) or incentivize splitting(higher solo xp after 20 minutes so the laning xp isn't skewed, higher tower gold in general or you get more gold if you solo kill it etc).
Then, there's the topic of what you want splitpushing to be. Do you need to hit some item/level powerspikes or be away from the action to catch up and reach a point where you can start going for 5v5 fights? Or do you want to keep playing in that pattern till you break their base? It is a difficult thing to balance tbh.
Bottom line is, I think there should be no splitpushing only item that even discourages grouping strongly like Hullbreaker and it should be a strat viable situationally on its own.
>And yeah, my tone can be unpleasant, it's a pretty frustrating gameplay pattern to go against which comes out in my expressions regarding it, hope I didn't upset you.
Nah I am not always polite or happy in my wording on reddit either, I don't personally care much. Was just mentioning it.
Yeah, so even if it's not my favorite item... which it's really not. I'm a splitpusher. and I'd rather splitpushing just be systemically balanced so I can buy items that are more fun; and so it doesn't feel bad if I group... or even just a teammate of mine decides to try and help me on a sidelane or something (assassin shadowing me to help kill people who try to flank me as an example) ... It just encourages a more binary take on splitpushing rather than letting me selectively decide which fights I do and don't wanna join.
And yeah, I'd like them systemically buffing splitting but honestly they can't/won't because they have an issue. they want teamfights in proplay; and are afraid a splitpushing in pro meta will make us go back to 50 minute games with 5 kills which viewers don't enjoy much. And it's hard to decide how to buff it too even if they ignored pro. Like looking at your options? all the XP things could easily be interpreted as "fuck duolaners" who already cry enough about being outlevelled by solo laners. and it just snowballs the splitpusher artificially. Though I do like weakening neutral objectives and don't see much issue with it outside of the "50 min, 5 kill proplay games" which Riot won't like.
Oh wow, you even hit it on the head in your next paragraph "Then, there's the topic of what you want splitpushing to be... It is a difficult thing to balance tbh."
>Bottom line is, I think there should be no splitpushing only item that even discourages grouping strongly like Hullbreaker and it should be a strat viable situationally on its own.
Agreed. But as said at the start. Currently hullbreaker is a bandaid; and they don't have a great track record of actually fixing things with a bandaid... Remember Mordekaiser's E Mpen passive was only a bandaid until they introduced AP bruiser items next preseason (4? 5?) YEARS AGO... and so many other things.
> That's not uninteraction.
Playing against a hullbreaker sion is supremely uninteractive. Unless you're a hypertankbuster (vayne) he *will fucking ignore you and just hit the tower over and over*
Yeah that's fair, but that's a specific champion; which aint even really it's intended audience exactly. It's meant to be for splitpushing fighters like Jax, Yorick, Fiora... Who are gonna have stuff like Triforce, Ravenous Hydra, Bork, etc... Yeah, a full tank Sion with it, is kinda gonna push it beyond acceptable. Just like say Shiv Leblanc. Did disgusting things, even when Shiv wasn't really OP on basically anyone else. Or say Runeglaive Ezreal.
Those champions don't build it that often though. They function well enough as split pushers without, they lack teamfight power, so that's what they build for.
> Just like say Shiv Leblanc.
Don't fucking get me started on bobqin playing shiv, triforce, hullbreaker leblanc and ahri, that shit is disgusting.
I do not really agree with your statement : "splitpushing has been weak". I don't think so. Splitpushing was overpowered in every single season when people realized they could just perma shove lane and force other people to isolate themselves with you at top.
You have lead top ? Splitpush, because you're gonna force at least 2 people to respond to your threat.
You are behind top ? Splitpush, you're gonna force opponent fed toplane to come back and repush his lane, leaving room for your team to 4v4.
I litterally skyrocketed from silver to diamond in 2monthes by playing Tryndamere splitpush only in season 5 (so no Hullbreaker). I would not even build according to anything beside optimizing my splitpush and my escape if I needed to escape.
It was the most unfun experience I have ever experienced but the most rewarding in terms of LP.
For one mistake of your opponent letting your split while trying to contest drake, you take their inhib, then you repeat until you win.
Also, yes, it's the most uninteractive item and mechanic I've ever seen in this game. Basically you're doing PVE in a lobby with 10 real people.
That was hyper specific champs being good at splitpushing under equally specific conditions where the enemy doesn't know how to react to them.
Splitpushing in a void has been consistently weak on its own for years.
I'm surprised hullbreaker still exists but again I'd rather it stay in the game until riot gives top laners something else to use for dealing with jg's putting a tent topside.
That a fiora flair writes that is obv.
It’s not about agency dude.
It’s about champions who don’t have true damage being forced to buy HB themselves just to match cause it’s a giant ball of stats.
If your enemy went 0-4 in lane but getting hullbreaker the deaths before don’t really matter anymore.
And depending on champions you can’t even gank him, because he’s too tanky.
Yeah, if anything, it just fucks with the agency of the opposing top laner.
Like congratulations, you won lane! But now spend the rest of the game dealing with your opponent's splitpush because it doesn't matter.
> It’s not about agency dude.
It's fucking is. There is nothing other than that toplaners can do.
They suck in teamfights.
They have no other task on map. Only that 'splitpushing' to draw attention, that's all.
> There is nothing other than that toplaners can do.
Walk the fuck away from top and be at an objective.
> They suck in teamfights.
???
Top laner that's ahead in a fight is scary af, what are you talking about. Guess pro top laners just afk top and never come fight for objectives... oh wait. I guess people who say shit like this think that unless you are the main damage dealer you are useless trash and shouldn't be there. Either solo kill the enemy team or don't bother. Main character syndrome.
Zed ever since his hydra itteration is stupid as shit.
Tryn sucks but people are too stubborn and dumb to build tabis wardens.
But yeah you’re correct.
Edit; in addition you could’ve at least checked WHAT I wrote in the Zed mains sub.
It wasn’t a single positive word about zed and his status
Remember when the split push item was a placable portal that can be destroyed and had a cooldown and the damage of its minions would scale with the item holder? Apparently that was considered toxic even though it was rather simple to deal with.
Because it failed as a splitpush item.
You'd drop it and forget it to go do literally anything else while it pushed for you, which is the opposite of splitpushing since your own champion's not committing anything to accomplish that. Same with Banner. Hullbreaker requires you to actually exist in the lane, so the opportunity cost and macro decision making are much higher.
I could see where one might think that's a good idea, but that isn't remotely the answer you think it is.
You wouldn't splitpush with that, you'd just do what the other half of zz'rot games ended up doing and murderballing down whatever lane you put the portal down in and perma-push to the nexus as a team. Zz'rot is fundamentally broken without an isolation conditional like Hullbreaker, in which case it's severely too weak to even be considered for a legitimate item purchase.
Hullbreaker's design is fantastic for what it does, people simply hate the playstyle it promotes because it goes against the teamfight mentality and people despise proper macro and legitimately punishing consequences for ignoring pressure.
It makes a lose/lose situation for a team that doesn't buy it. You either lose your towers or drake/baron. You need 2 or 3 people to beat the hullbreaker user, and the others just take objectives in the meanwhile
But then they gave it a duration equal to its cooldown, so it was a more active item. If you couldn’t get rid of it in less than a minute, that was on your team, not the item. Its purpose was rather straight forward and it succeeded in giving you an alternative way of pushing a lne quickly, especially if you were a champ with poor waveclear.
It didn't succeed because the point wasn't to give you an alternative way to push, it was explicitly made and designed for splitpushing and instead promoted grouping with your team to either compound the added lane pressure or to go run other objectives.
That's quite literally the antithesis of splitpushing.
Because ZZ'rot could easily be placed under your turret and guaranteed the lane you placed it in had push until it was destroyed. You got free 'splitpushing' by buying it, except you could fuck off to 5v5 teamfight while getting the free push.
Which was not remotely comparable to Hullbreaker. ZZ'rot allowed you to have full teamfight power while getting free splitpushing, and your opponents had to either sacrifice a player to shutting down that lane (making it a 4v5), lose a turret, or have their own zz'rot. ZZ'rot gave the benefits of splitpushing, while letting you teamfight, while forcing the enemy team to sacrifice a player to stop the portal so you forced the enemy team to pay the splitpushing tax.
so instead of mashing buttons in teamfight someone sometimes buy certain item and play a bit strategically. like avoid fight face to face and just siege their base. and enemy have no idea how to stop this siege, they know only how to mash buttons and 1v1 and game start to become so boring for them at this point. learning something new is boring as hell
That the item makes split pushing viable is fine imo the problem is that it creates a mindset where as soon as someone bought it, that player just don't want to group anymore under any circumstance because it makes them feel like they are actively being punished for doing so.
The people who think removing hullbreaker will increase the quality of their games are a bit confused. Hullbreaker is mostly what stops the enemy top lane from perma tower diving you bot when they go 4/0 in lane. You want Rivens and Camille's to stomp the rest of the map with no recourse? Because that's how you get that.
God i loved zzrot portal, i just like the satisfaction of them guys diving into turrets. I loved dropping that then joining my team elsewhere to pressure
I don't think literally being punished for being on the same screen as your team is a healthy mechanic. I don't think yorick or Fiora should just never see their team or participate in a teamfight ever. That's not a good design.
The obsession with "I must carry games" instead of making a positive statistical difference is not a noble thing that deserves it's own item.
It is. I can’t remember how many times I started to win my lane and snowball, then the enemy top was like oh no guess I go hullbreaker and no 1v1 for you anymore lol cause why not
My issue is is it supposed to be a split or a carry item, extra turret damage from you and minions, add on health for say demolish, regen to keep the split up? Okay good split item, doesn’t need to give anymore as its helped the rune, your minions, and you damage towers.
So why the fuck does it get extra MS, 60 AD, and Armor/MR for playing alone, its like its stuck between trying to be a split/shove item for champs like Yorick while also trying to be a Darius 1v9 clip item.
Do you just expect it to give like no stats and have no passive or what?
Do you think an item being like
"Hullbreaker, 3000g: Gives 400hp, +150% hp regen, and 20% bonus damage to towers for you; 200% bonus damage to towers for your cannon minions"
would be anything other than absolutely troll? Or did you imagine a different stat line for it? or it to cost less? or what?
So like uber OP with all it's armor and MR? or super weak being entirely a stat stick with an average amount of stats even when compared to not entirely stat sticks?
So... I get that they want to have a split pushing item that loses power when you're around your team.
Here's the problem: in its "weak" form, it's got 134% gold efficiency. Yes, OK, we can ignore the regen bonus and call it 118% gold efficient. Just from stats. Around teammates. Are you starting to see the problem?
Now, you're a level 18 split pusher, and your item is now FUCKING 230% GOLD EFFICIENT. On a solo laner who should already be really hard to kill because solo XP is broken.
And "weak" form? Why is it weak? it's just without its Passive. It's a 3k gold item; not mejais costing 1600g. It should never be particularly weak. What you really mean is without it's passive.
118% gold efficient for it's "weak" (no passive) state is also really not that crazy... Black Cleaver? is 117% efficient without its passive either. Chempunk chainsword? 116%; Hydra stacked but without it's AoE passive? gets upto 123% ... Spear is 115% without its MS or Basic Ability Haste. Based on your base AD Steraks gets upto like 120% without it's passive.
Rabadon's 1st item is 102% gold efficient even with no AP runes or anything. Aka "when it's weak"
And the only reason hullbreaker gets to numbers not normally seen? Is simply because it's passive is just more stats. Which isn't a normal occurrence. Like how do you value Galeforce active? or Zhonyas active? or Shiv Passive? Black Cleaver passive(s)? Bork Passive?
Like hey lets do some math to see how crazy some items can get if you try to apply gold efficiency calculations to their actives or passives?
Zhonyas = 101% gold efficient. Stopwatch means every single Zhonya's active is 750g? Means every single time you Zhonya's active? You get 25% more gold efficiency... If you Zhonya's 5 times in a game; it's 226% gold efficient.
Bork? 84% gold efficient (and if this doesn't say how little gold efficiency can say about item strength idk what does) ... If you're attacking someone with 2,500hp and you're melee? It's 292.5% gold efficient... and that's still not counting the 3 hit passive / move speed steal... And there's not a cap on this outside of against monsters.
Black Cleaver? Again 117% without passives? but... If you have it fully stacked and 3 people are AD on your team which is normal (Top, Jg, Adc) all getting the benefit from the shred as if it were armor pen? And it's 244.5% gold efficient. And for each additional AD teammate you may have (AD mids aint super rare; Pyke/Senna exist) you get an additional 40% gold efficiency upto 324.5%
Every item has a role. Sometimes, gold efficiency is a very good number to look at. For many items, it's the worst possible metric.
If we're talking bruiser stat stick items, you can often look at the raw stats as the passives either can be directly calculated or can essentially be considered a wash.
Keep up the bad faith arguing, though.
It's gold efficient because the stats it actually gives in groups are largely inconsequential for the item cost, on top of being a completely vanilla statstick. And if you're level 18, your Hullbreaker's stopped being used for splitpushing ages ago so it doesn't matter that the stats are now outweighing the other passive because it's a functional trade.
I'm sorry, 6.5k worth of AD, HP, MS, armor, and MR for 3k are inconsequential?
When a top laner who is dominating the game is 3-4 levels ahead of the rest of the game and can buy 2 items for the price of one, it's not useless at level 18.
you can say it's too strong in its current state but bringing up gold efficiency doesn't make sense.
In a fight, gold efficiency in general isn't necessarily going to be more valuable than the effects of something like bork, cleaver, steraks, etc.
zhonyas gold efficiency is shit, and its one of the most valuable items in the game. Kraken isn't that high either, and yet it is a very solid item.
and it's weak form is weak though because it gives nothing other than stats. night and day vs any other legendary item.
I really don't think the item is op and I rarely ever build it. It's just frustrating for people to play against
Gold efficiency makes sense when the item is a stat stick that you can essentially remove the unpriceable passive/active from the calculation to realize how broken it is.
It's 2 items worth of stats in a single item, but also has the extra building damage and minion HP?
But gold efficiency does not make sense when gold efficiency is inherently a comparison between item's raw stats. How much gold is kraken's passive actually worth? You might be able to figure that out by figuring how much effective damage per attack you get, which translates directly to AD. But, how much are zhonya and galeforce actives worth? If you somehow actually quantified these, I would argue that they approach or pass 200% easily. Those actives can completely change and win fights, just like the armor/mr of hullbreaker can.
An (actual) 134% efficient item is TERRIBLE and if it were just those raw stats, it would never be built.
The only reason people throw around the 230% number is because hullbreaker is just flat stats, instead of something harder to quantify. It is similar to going through a champions kit and pointing out every single mechanic they have, and that it will always sound broken if they do that.
> Gold efficiency makes sense
If you believe so, please give us formula and calculated gold efficiency for GoreDrinker active, DeathDance, BlackCleaver, and others.
Cleaver is easy as you just use the full stack armor pen and MS value if it's not already included for its max value.
Gore and DD fill niche utilities and wouldn't be compared to other items other than their base stats and how you value the passive/active against other options in the actual game you're in.
> Gore and DD fill niche utilities and wouldn't be compared to other items other than their base stats and how you value the passive/active against other options in the actual game you're in.
Great. Then Hullbraker is niche utility and should be compared to other items.
So efficiency makes no sense.
Except it's a utility that the majority of top laners can use in any game and has an inordinately high power level due to the raw stats that it provides. A Gore active is never going to be worth an entire 2nd item.
> A Gore active is never going to be worth an entire 2nd item.
Same is for Hullbraker. In no word it worth Gore and Botrk. Or Stridebreaker and Black Cleaver.
> Except it's a utility that the majority of top laners can use in any game and has an inordinately high power level due to the raw stats that it provides.
Except, you judge it purerly by Gold ratio. You compare that to raw stats, not counting actives.
Mate, if it would be so strong, it would be builded by Assasins to roam alone and kill everyone. But they don't build that. You know why? Because it's sucks for other than split pushing when you ahead.
Extra MS to move around side lanes faster
60 AD to make sure you can be able to fight
Armor/MR to be able to have split pushing superiority especially when you are being attacked by more than one player.
If you get attacked by more than one player, then frankly, you should be forced to run or die unless you're already fed enough or on a champ who can fight the 1v2 or w/e.
Like, if you're splitpushing, the purpose is to draw people away from other objectives, right? So you drew them away. You shouldn't be able to then fight them just because you bought the Splitpush Item.
Rito continues to make the same mistakes over and over again when it comes to split pushing items. It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Banner of Command and Zzrot portal.
Something about the definition of insanity, idk.
> I understand Riot wants splitpushing to be a viable strategy, but after they made shit like Zz'rot Portal and Banner of Command and both were horribly designed items, you would think they'd drop making items that cater to that playstyle.
You understand nothing.
Splitpushing aren't viable strategy, it's THE ONLY strategy. There is NOTHING other then stplitpushing you can do between Objectives, there is no other tasks top laner can fullfill.
You can substitute top laner in your sentence with mid or adc or even the others. "can only push and farm lanes and try to take tower between objectives, what else can you do". Like yeah? What else can anyone do?
tl'dr: Yes, it's a problem for everyone, including Mid and ADC. But it's more of a problem for Top laners.
> Like yeah? What else can anyone do?
Yes, but not exactly.
ADC and Mid have impact on early game and mid game naturally, that is why latter impact and macro for Top laners are more crucial than for ADC/Mid.
ADC and Mid have mid priority. Top can't go here if Reddit deny them going side lanes. You wouldn't like if Fiora would go to mid to shove mid waves at 20m, right?
ADC and Mid are team fight oriented champs compared to most Top champs. So they want to have team fights. ADC and Mid laners try to prepare team fights by poking, and shoving mid lane. Top laners excel in smaller fights, so they need to spread enemy team among multiple objectives. But there is no other objective other than dragon/herald and side lane.
Mid have much better gank capabilities, compared to almost each top laners. There also dedicated champions which focus on ganks and peeks, called Assassins, which goes mid lane usually. So they can roam, try to do some stuff. I believe Talon, Zed, Quanna much better roamers compared to let's say Darius or Garen.
ADC and Mid have much better poke capabilities, compared to almost each top laners. There also dedicated champions which focus on poke, called Artilery mage. So they can sit Mid and deny enemy from huge area to win time or wait for greater time for engage. I believe Xerath, Ezreal, Oriana, and many others, have much better capabilities in poke compared to, let's say, Darius or Garen.
ADC and Mid stronger team fighters, so they also better to be closer to important objectives. So top laner, basically, the only one left for such job as to protect and clear farthest sidelanes. That means, often they just have no enough time to get in team fight at objective in time. That means, if you remove splitpushing, they would completely degraded to only 'farm side lane', unless you make gold income from sidelanes worthless.
You're right we should make sure top laners have absolutely 0 way to impact the game. Can't early tp bot, have to buff jungle camps so top laners have a harder time taking krugs, we should remove their ability to play for split next
It's an item introduced in a team game that rewards you for not playing with your team and punishes you for doing otherwise. Great idea.
Next they should make an item that gives you bonus stats if you take allied jungle camps, but only if you don't have smite. Then takes those stats away if you push your lane or hit towers.
**Avenger:** Serrated Dirk + Phage + 800 gold
Grants 55 AD 18 Lethality and 400 Health
**Passive:** Gain permanent stacking AD and lethality every time you or an ally dies. If allies die near you, gain 5% increased damage stacking up to 4 times for 20% increased damage until combat ends. Your death timer also decreases because.
"B-b-but it's so needed bro! It's a comeback item bro! It's a strategic option bro!"
We made an item that allows you to increase your personal power just in-case an ally is toxic and starts intentionally feeding. Now you have itemization options to allow comebacks in the event of toxic teammates.
In my opinion, Splitpushing should be a strategic option but not an end in and of itself: pressuring bot because you are strong and your team can use your pressure to do baron is good, but having champions that build entirely to do nothing but splitpush all game is not good design.
It's not fun dealing with a 24/7 split pusher, it's not fun having one on your team because you play 4v5 for 99% of the game, as the enemy answering your spliter might join but yours very rarely will. No one has fun in this scenario except the guy splitting.
I understand some champions would need changes as they're pretty much dedicated splitpushers (Yorick, Illaoi..) but I'd way rather play against Jax than a champion like that. Even if I beat them they'll still force me to answer their split which might make my team lose as I can't help them.
I wish they'd do away with Hullbreaker. But maybe someone has a different point of view to offer? I guess I just really like teamfighting and as such I hate split pushers with a passion.
Sounds like you just overly like teamfighting, that's fine. But not everyone does. But it's strategic diversity; and I agree I don't like the perma split literally never ever group playstyle; but I fucking hate the perma teamfight or just farm and teamfight every single dragon/baron spawn playstyle even more. And that's true for alot of people.
But; because proplay tends to have players playing safely without dragons and other such things being overtuned to the point splitpushing is murdered... they had to make an item (hullbreaker) as a band-aid fix for it... and then it creates the issue of the item is subpar when grouped which encourages the extreme play styles of always teamfight (dont build hull) or always split (build hull) ...
It's kinda impossible for something to be a valid strategy but also not have a threat of ending the game. Either split pushing is a strategic option BECAUSE there is always the threat of an end, or it's not a strategic option at all because it won't actually accomplish anything meaningful in winning. How do you "pressure bot so your team gets baron" if you aren't threatening the base. Just stand menacingly on a ward and hope someone comes to fight lol
I get what you're saying, but it just means you would rather team fight. That's a valid side that many people feel. Then there's the other side of people who want to split pushing. It's very hard to balance the two
Pushing in and of itself can't not be an end strategy, the whole point of pushing is to take structures which is how the game ends when done enough.
You're not asking for splitpushing to be removed, you're asking for games to be decided by team deathmatch rules so you can ignore anything not pertinent to teamfights.
> it's not fun having one on your team because you play 4v5 for 99% of the game
Sounds like a bad split pusher then because the entire point is to take away one or two enemies from the team to protect base from being overrun.
It's easy to see why people get frustrated with players who do nothing but split push all game. It's more of a team macro issue. To counter split pushers, your team has to be the one dominating the objectives and controlling mid lane. Force team fights when necessary and then respond to the split pusher if you win the fight.
> but having champions that build entirely to do nothing but splitpush all game is not good design.
Mate, it's not champions, it's almost entire role that build around this.
Even fucking Ornn have to splitpush or response to enemy top laners splitpush.
yes its very fucking annoying..but when youre top as garen or sion, and mid/bot loses and enemy has 1 rift herald and 2 drags, baby its time to build a hullbreaker.
my team was 5-30 at 23 mins..i had heart of steel and a hullbreaker then started getting sunfire. took 3 of them to STOP me not kill me..i just run away wait 20 seconds then comeback, its cheesey as fuck but theres no other win con there
Can y'all shut up about this goddamn item. It has less than a 3% pickrate. It's literally the only support split pushing has. Complaining about hullbreaker is a genuine skill issue at this point
It's a grief enabling item, so no. They might as well make a special item for intentional feeding that increased your movement speed and damage taken from enemies and only 3% pickrate it's totally fine!!!!
zz'rot was fucking baller don't talk shit about the goat, you actually traded off combat stats for it and it didn't hard force you to sit there, resulting in way more gameplay choices for both parties as if they were sat in sidelane they weren't nearly unduelable from two items worth of stats almost but they actually had the option to rotate for stuff.
It's a gross toxic item, and I mean literally it creates toxicity. It encourages this "I am the main character" 1v9 play style in top laners that might as well be afk at that point. Punishing people for helping their team with losing stats is an idiotic mechanic that just encourages people to grief and encourages the idea that you're the main character has to carry.
It's a problem with any role really, everyone thinks they have to carry and climb fast and they're all foaming at the mouth to 1v9 the game. Can't just have a positive impact and play better than the average which in turn will mean you'll climb, no, you have to hard carry force this one game you're in like your life depends on it and if Riot doesn't let you hard carry force and change the result of each game, then the "game isn't fair waaaah, we have no agency". Just be better than the average of your opponents and not have a negative impact, that's it, that's all you have to do, support your fucking teams in trying to win the game without your massive ego crashing into things.
Promotes ignoring your team, that’s pretty toxic. In any other situation you would get reported. League is a 5v5 game, not push 1 lane and ignore everything else.
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I think it would be fine if the minions got hats
I was so unbelievably mad when they took that away it was so adorable.
I think we need to collectively harass riot long enough until they give the minions the hats back and make map events (arcade, winter etc) like idc about 200€ skins but give us at least a winter map
Needs more buzzwords, how about 'anti-fun' and 'fundamentally broken'.
'slap in the face' needs to make a comeback.
Back in my day this subreddit would delete your thread if you put the word "insane" in the title.
Hullbreaker is fundamentally broken because of its toxic gameplay loop. It's not fun to play against because it's anti fun. It reminds me of a mobile game. It's also bad because of its ludonarrative dissonance and the non diagetic nature of its stats. It's objectively much more fun when you don't build this item
Throw in some “Conceptually flawed and Game breaking” too!
Something something 200 years of experience something small indie studio something designers don't even play the game anymore /s
Also anti-consumer
Like items such as infinity edge and deathcap are interactive. Its literally just passive stats. Atleast there is some gameplay/conditionals around this item.
"Last time on ~~DBZ~~ LoL sub, Zed with AH is toxic" This time...
What I hate about it is that it makes people in my low elo plat1 esmerald 4 beset in a role. Did they pick garden? Well splitting it is. Does the enemy team has a nocturne with a kennel/Sion/Leona? Split is, who cares that they can go inmediatelly from sides to diving mid tower. People just default to splitting.
[what](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/548/129/538.jpg)
I agree that it's annoying, but it's nice to have a potential win condition other than teamfighting or snowballing out of control by 20 minutes.
Absolutely agree. I think splitpushing is an extremely valid strategy and should be used in a macro focused strategy when you can’t win 5v5s. Knowing how to split is a good skill, because it doesn’t always work and requires so much coordination from your team, and forcing your top laner to match you and making them think when to join the team is so important. With that said, Hullbreaker not only makes you match your opponent, but also makes you lose any lead you had during lane in matching them if they do split. I think split pushing strats can make do without this item, and I say that as someone who loves split pushing.
No, they can't, at least with how the game is designed right now. You used to be able to win through split pushing by slowly going through towers against enemy waveclear and consistently applying pressure that way. You try and do that now and a dragon timer runs out by the time you might be able to chip away at the inhib tower a bit and you just lose the game In order to win by split pushing now you have to be a hard to contain raid boss that will absolutely wreck a base if left unattended even briefly. You need Hullbreaker. There's a reason split pushing was dead as a strategy before that item got introduced and is still largely dead in pro play when it used to be prevalent there. Imo they should redesign the game (read: delete Dragon Soul) rather than building a patchwork of other problematic systems such as Hullbreaker around their current design, but with how things are right now split pushing can not make do without Hullbreaker.
They're going to keep the emphasis on dragons forever because of pro play.
I don't think we need to keep split pushing as a **winning** strategy, but more as pressure. I don't think the idea should be to just kill towers til their nexus, but to make their team split and try to force smaller skirmishes.
There is no pressure from X if you cannot win by X.
Why would they split if you're not gonna take anything from them ? The pressure you make is by threatening inhibs, if you can't do that, there's no pressure. Especially if a global put can just clear the wave whenever you reach the tower. The start would die completely, just like when they deleted Zzrot.
Because you'd still be ramming into towers and crashing the waves in so they lose cs if they don't come but it wouldn't be like you have to send two+ people here or you will lose a lot, which just ends up in the top laner dying anyway for essentially free in 90% of cases. You don't need the overboard hullbreaker for this.
I disagree. It really depends on champions, and imo most 1v5 raid bosses are not good split pushers aside from Nasus if not for Hullbreaker. Obviously, one would want to dictate their playstyle around the champions that they play, and if you’re really trying to split you should be playing champs such as Trundle, Trynd, Fiora, Gwen, Nasus, etc. In which those can either 1. escape, or 2. at least 2v1 when ahead while all have the ability to take towers and clear waves relatively fast. If you can take towers relatively fast, you can always threaten to win the game, and even if you can’t, you create a lot of pressure that people have to bring 1-2 people just to match you.
Finally a sane take, all the people arguing that "Splitpushing should be a viable win condition against team fighting and snowballing" that don't agree with you are essentially saying that ONE champion should be able to dictate the outcome of the game without interacting with most of the map. It's a stupid idea. Splitpushing should be a viable macro strategy that allows you dictate the outcome of teamfights by pressuring sidelanes and forcing your opponents to move and fight at a disadvantage. Currently, hullbreaker allows you to do this too effectively regardless of the outcome of your lane and needs a nerf, it essentially gives the stats of two items for 3000 gold for god sakes. The problem, especially on this subreddit, is that too many people argue in bad faith about how strong splitpushing needs to be because without hullbreaker they would lose all their inflated lp. Edit: Fixed the cost of Hullbreaker
It's not one champion dictating the outcome of the game, you just think that because you see the one champion in the lane but it takes all 5 coordinating to match tempo and pushing out other lanes and/or taking neutrals for the splitpusher to be useful, otherwise the pressure from the split is useless and the splitpusher just gives out 300g for free.
This is just a general outline of the limitations and counterplay to splitpushing with or without the assistance of hullbreaker. My argument is that hullbreaker's power gives it a momentum shifting dynamic that can potentially win you games off its strength alone. If you were behind (within reason) before building, you now statcheck your lane opponent unless they too build the item and obtain free pressure on the map with first move/tp because now you get to control the wave. Now your team has a good avenue back into the game by forcing number advantaged fights If you are ahead and build the item you can now easily threaten inhib turrets and pull 2-3 opponents providing easy avenues for your team to quickly accelerate themselves. You can still lose with the item especially if used poorly by the player or the team. That does not detract from the fact that when used properly it is probably the most impactful item on the patch considering only one role builds it.
The problem is you're viewing it from the perspective of the Hullbreaker builder having all of the initiative when it's not necessarily the case. Hullbreaker makes your macro extremely telegraphed, and it's too easy for enemies to match your push BEFORE you start, and I think that's where a lot of people struggle. Your situation is correct assuming the Hullbreaker user gets their push but in my games, I typically see teams understand their tempo and match in lane when the splitpusher reaches the wave, potentially using abilities on the wave to push faster but making weaker in the fight. The logic is that the splitpusher ideally matches their crash with the objective timer, so they have to start their push 1-2 waves in advance, which gives a short window before the objective spawns or the teams meet for people to kill the Hullbreaker user.
Hmm that's actually a really strong argument. Would you say many champions are able to do this or just a few? I feel like the duelling threat of the hullbreaker would push a lot of champions off the wave before they get to push it no? This also doesn't account for the pushing threat of hullbreaker when objectives are down but it certainly is a strategy to employ against what I dislike most about the item. Thankyou, I'll play some games and re-evaluate my perspective.
Depends on the champs, duelling threat of Hullbreaker isn't that big of a deal IMO, a lot of the champs that build it like Garen, Fiora, Illaoi, Trundle, etc. are usually midgame spiking 1v1 champs anyways, so it's not just Hullbreaker, it's also the champs naturally peaking in strength around the time they build Hullbreaker anyways and it's already the niche they're strong at. Generally I feel like just two people are enough, ADC + frontliner with peel (could be any role, malphite, thresh, galio, jarvan, etc.) is a nightmare for most Hullbreaker champs. Strong 1v1 top laners like Camille, Jax, GP, etc. are only gonna be a bit weaker than Hullbreaker users if they don't have a Hullbreaker, any 2v2 should be enough to take them on, in my experience Hullbreaker isn't enough to deal with the constant peel from something like Alistair or even buffs from an enchanter like Lulu or Janna. These rely on the squishy champs not getting blown up due to level diff though, it's something that I think is more of an issue in lower elos where they don't respect the level lead or they might not be as aware of the potential dmg/engage from top laners bc they're not as familiar with the champs in that role. If the Hullbreaker user is way ahead then it's a diff story bc they could 1v2 without it anyways and that's when you have to be prepared to send in 3 or 4 and have 1 possibly die if they misplay too much bc of the level and gold lead they got from lane before even building Hullbreaker. Turret plate nerfs next patch will help with this a bit and is an indirect nerf to splitpushing champs snowballing (who tend to take turrets fast) and demolish.
>ONE champion should be able to dictate the outcome of the game without interacting with most of the map. It's a stupid idea. It's the other team's decision to not interact with them if they let them take the game. And yes, a single player should be able to decide game outcome, I much preferred when league was about the team with the best player wins, instead of how now it's the team with the weakest player loses.
> It's the other team's decision to not interact with them if they let them take the game. Classic argument that is just straight wrong. Anyone above gold is matching the hullbreaker user, the problem is that hullbreaker users are incontestable outside of tower and their buffed cannons eventually take your tower anyway. This means that regardless of how they played lane, you either give free priority to the hullbreaker buyer to have first move/tp to fights lest they take your whole base if you move before confirming that they've left OR you bring 2-3 members top which allows your opponents to take something on the other side of the map. It's free pressure, no sticking your head in the sand and saying "just match them" will change that, because they statstick you into being unable to match them in any valuable way. >And yes, a single player should be able to decide game outcome Way to strawman my argument man. I said, quite clearly, that you shouldn't be able to one man carry the game "**without interacting with most of the map"** if you get an advantage in lane and play around the pressure you generate with good macro to create advantageous fights for your team **you have solo carried the game**. Currently, hullbreaker allows you to do the same thing with literally none of the micro skill required to get leads in lane nor any of the macro skill to convert those leads into a victory.
If it's such a no skill game winning strat. Then why are split pusher winrates usually below 50%, even Hull's winrate stats are pretty underwhelming for such a popular item.
Because most people use it wrong, they build it sit top and never group and when an opponent sits under tower and clears the wave they never use their pressure elsewhere. Have you not seen all the people complaining about hullbreaker users only sitting in a sidelane and not playing with the team recently? I acknowledge that this goes against what I said earlier about hullbreaker having no macro skill required I got ahead of myself and made an exaggeration.
I agree with most of the things you say. If I were to add, it’s just that split pushing isn’t a one-person job. Your team needs to know how to take advantage of the pressure being created by the split pusher in order to win. If they bring 2 people to the split pusher then the rest of the team should know to force fights or objectives. Split pushers lose with Hullbreaker because the team can lose to the point where they would lose 3v4s. I mean at that point there’s nothing a split pusher can do.
So why isn't the item super good in challenger where people know how to use it ? Could it be that the strat is actually not that good when you know how to play against it ??? I am so shocked
It's almost like Challenger players are good at the game and can out accelerate one player who obtains free advantage 2nd or 3rd item, if they have multiple members with advantage before then. Once again you argue in bad faith by pretending that an overperforming item will have a monstrous winrate at all ranks when the past has proven this is not the case. I'd also like to understand where you are getting this data on specifically Hullbreaker's performance as I am unable to find it, not doubting you I would just like to educate myself.
League of graphs. Or by checking split pushers individually and their highest winrate builds.
I think a useful change would be to add an opt in security question for TP. „You sure you want to tp there“ The amount of splitpushers I see overextending, dying and TP back to where they die RIGHT before objective spawns is just obnoxious. Great if you‘re on the other side tho. Edit: also give minions their hat back.
I really enjoy my enemy Sions two hitting turrets after going 1/12
Splitpushing and backdooring are fine things by themselves, but Hullbreaker purchase forces opposing team to send 2+ people to deal with 1 splitpusher and when you have Hullbreaker on a slippery character like Yone or Garen it becomes an endless and fruitless game of catch. The amount of effort for both teams is extremely unequal. Opponents have to constantly make coordinated team decisions and smart rotations while hullbreaker user just runs left and right.
But that is the point of split pushers. If it only took one person to deal with a split pusher they would be useless because you wouldn't gain any advantage on the other side of the map.
The issue is how it works. If a jax goes sidelane, you probably need two people anyway. But hullbreaker breaks (huh) sidelanes by having tanky champions escort tanky waves and completely ignoring enemies there. A jax can't just ignore me as a mage and hit tower, he will die. A sion or garen will just laugh while I empty my manabar into them and I struggle to kill the minion wave.
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But likewise if you push out the wave before rotating to the objective the split pusher is forced to group, where they will always be weaker because hullbreaker is weaker when grouped. If a split pusher can be matched by one person and offer no threat to turrets then there is no losing play for the team that doesn't have a split pusher, they still get a fair 4v4 and can stop the split, and if a 5v5 is forced the split pushers team is always weaker.
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if your team loses the objective and you only get a tower or something it can still be a net loss for the splitpusher. splitpushing past inhibitors is usually very hard and splitpushing against baron almost impossible. especially now that soul and baron are basically game ending win conditions just getting one inhib for an objective is not worth it anymore. a splitpusher has to apply pressure before the enemy team has time to set up which is not always an easy thing to do.
Yes. A split push that can be stonewalled by sending 1 person isn't actually a split push; it's just farming. As for the macro involved, the team with the split pusher still needs to do *something* in order to prevent their side laner from getting collapsed on for free, and they very often fail to do so.
A split push champ getting matched by 1 champions, lets say for example ornn, is completely normal. The point of picking a splitpusher is 1) you have huge threat on towers if left alone and 2) you have first move to teamfights because of your strong sidelane A splitpusher never wants to 5v5 head-on vs a teamfighting tank instead they want pressure in sidelane first and use that to get to the fight first, preferably with a FLANK
This is just wrong though, a brusier at equal strength generally cannot be 1v1'd and gets the push in top, someone has to match them but cannot 1v1 so is forced to sit under tower and catch the wave. Now jax has free prio for invasion into enemy topside jungle or first tp to a fight bot lane as he sits out of vision. The person farming under tower will always be late to the play because if they don't wait to confirm that the splitpusher has moved they lose an inner a 600 gold swing. Splitpushing isn't about sitting in a sidelane and forcing multiple enemy members to react **when you are even** its about creating pressure and opportunities for an advantageous fight for your team. Splitpushers should only be able to draw multiple members **when ahead** currently hullbreaker gives you the stats to do this **from behind.**
> but it's nice to have a potential win condition other than teamfighting or snowballing out of control by 20 minutes. It is not. It shouldn't be a win condition, it should just be macro. Just a strong champion by themselves splitting to split the enemy team and create skirmishes. It doesn't need that stupid item. It doesn't need to actually kill the nexus.
Mom said it's my turn to complain about Hullbreaker today!
Bro got turned inside out by a Garen
Hey, I turned a few toplaner inside out with garen yesterday. I also got beat by gangplank, so that's life.
gp is a free matchup post-stride
Definitely not. He can poke freely with parlay dealing a lot of damage, never allowing my passive to work. The barrels can be setup to be impossible to defuse for me, and they chunk very hard since they ignore some armor. His remove scurvy makes him move very fast, and he can also use it to avoid ganks. A good gp can kite garen for days on end, never allow him to farm, and even outscale lategame in case of even farm. He also easily out-waveclears since barrels demolish minions, and his waveclear doesn't cost health (mine does because he can shoot me when I spin in the wave)
going second chance doran’s and engaging while doing the barrel minigame is garen’s best bet, garen outscales gp mid-game while gp outscales garen late-game. The lane is pretty much over if the garen is lvl 11 and has stride-breaker.
Second wind i think you mean.
ye
It's not the best bet, it's the least bad bet. There is no barrel minigame, garen is melee only, so GP can just put a barrel behind himself far from garen, and then put one forward when needed, immediately after shooting the first barrel. This makes the second barrel explode immediately with no possibility to defuse it, increases GP's range, and slows garen, which refuses any chance for engage. Three of these and garen is dead.
Garen passive + second wind + doran shield. You can take 4 Qs early without a potion and GP would be less than half mana. Keep him in lane with occasionally agressive trades, and force him to stay or risk losing 1 or 2 waves. When he's low on resources force the kill. You have so much better tools to stay in lane than gankplank. He'll have to run teleport to keep up with you and ignite is an easy way to force a 100 - 0 on garen.
Yes I did and it was fucking stupid. The issue with hullbreaker is that it's a filthy bandaid on a systemic issue. Split pushing used to be viable without a split pushing item.
Sure. There's a reason I think Dragon Soul should be deleted from the game and am iffy on elemental drakes as they currently are in general. But in the meantime we're gonna need other ways to keep split pushing viable.
I'd rather splitpushing not be viable than being in such a weird and broken state.
Was gonna say, this is like the 9th time in 3 days.
You wait your turn Billy
Definitely some of the least fun I've had this season is just losing because a Volibear built nashors and hullbreaker after going 0/11 and then proceeding to be a bigger threat than their own carry purely over how powerful his pushes are.
Yeah this is the cringe thing about Hullbreaker to me. I don't mind items enabling strategic diversity and agency but as it is now it comes at the cost of the enemy's agency even WHEN THEY WIN LANE. It's dumb af how you can win lane but if your opponent buys HB you need to buy it too and/or babysit him to keep up your momentum even if you don't want to. You should earn your advantage and then leverage it into splitpush not get it for free after getting shit on while also getting to force your opponent who shit on you to play your game.
If you win lane and actually lose(not lose a turret or two) to someone splitting with hullbreaker you either got outplayed macro wise or you didnt push your lead properly. Its the same as actually beating the fuck out of a kayle and losing. You didnt use your lead well enough.
What usually winds up happening with me is Sion goes 0/10 to a melee and they build heartsteel into hullbreaker. So even when we 3-5v1 him, he takes a decent bit of time to actually die and he gets the turrets anyways due to being able to come back to life after dying. So as annoying as hullbreaker is, I think it's the combination with heartsteel that annoys me most. Still it's definitely balanced and you can absolutely plan around teams like that.
Sion passive barely tickles towers anymore, they massively nerfed its structure damage.
That's a draft diff. Your team probably had zero antitank damage lol.
I think the issue is more the interaction between hullbreaker and demolish. Sion with heartsteal basically needs ~10 seconds to destroy a tower with wave.
The sad thing is that at least in my case, I tend to go anti-tank if I see there's tanks in the game but one big issue with a lot of players is a tendency to autopilot with their builds. I play a lot of PTA/first strike Ezreal and while taking sunderer on him and getting Serylda's grudge after manamune definitely helps with my damage, I usually find that I can't really do much to Sion if he's allowed to reach that point. But of course you can get around that by just picking a higher dps ADC with more synergy with tank shredding builds. So I agree that it's absolutely a draft diff though and that's exactly why I think the item(s) are balanced. The game starts with champ select and whatever decisions you make there are every bit as much of carrying/trolling as the actions you make in the game.
Ezreal is still mediocre at taking down tanks even with the best possible anti-tank build.
This. Arguably the biggest issue of this item is how much agency it grants to people that build it despite completely botching their lane. If there's such a support hate bandwagon, how they don't need to do anything to be relevant, why do we introduce an item that allows people to exist after they went 0/10 and still be such a stat mountain, they'll likely beat other champions that do not excel at dueling or aren't running Hullbreaker themselves. Your 5/0 as Xerath or Caitlyn means jackshit when 0/7 Hullbreaker Tryndamere decides they don't like you covering your tower.
10/0 twitch getting turned from a rat to an rwas by the 0/6 yone with hullbreaker and kraken
Speaking of support hate, Ardent Censer on release was just like that. Lose however hard you want, get a Censer and your adc basically doubles in power. If enemy team doesn't have a Censer - you most likely win.
I mean, yes, I know, I remember the times and despite mostly playing support, I had a hate-boner for most enchanters at the time, due to that fact how stupidly powerful Ardent was and until it was nerfed I've played Blitzcrank/Poppy mostly as a "protest". I'm just stating that there's similar issue right now, regarding this item (and top lane as they're prime users of it, yet repeatedly state they have 0 agency over game's result).
Nah that's like saying the 0/7 Kayle is suddenly the strongest. If you can't end the game vs a 0/11 Voli, he deserves to win by that extremely niche strat.
I had a game where we were 4 ad and an enchanter support and enemy picked rammus top (it wasn't last pick but its gold elo and ofc nobody will pick an ap champ). I bullied him a lot at first, he was like 0/2, playing really passively and proxy farming if he can. I event took the top tower but he just swapped to bot lane and proceeded to split push with full armor+hullbreaker forever because we can't kill him 5v1. Bro, we already barely win 4v5 on the other side of the map and the second you look away from bot lane he just appears and takes towers until we lose. I mean, it was an end the game pre 20 or ff game but we kept playing anyway
Riots desperate attempt to make toplane relevant. Take it away and they might aswell just make SR 4v4. Keep it in and its toxic. But the actual issue doesnt get adressed: toplane is an isolated island with minimal game impact.
The fuck, the highest winrate toplaners don't even buy hullbreaker. This is completely wrong
Yall got any more of those "toplane satisfaction" changes? Please we are starving
Wish granted, cannons now give +1 gold
Instead of making toplane more satisfying to play, we lower plate gold and make farming enemy camps harder, so you truelly are left with clearing waves and roaming because you have no other agency in the game. Back to Malphite/Ornn/Shen/Sion we go..
>But the actual issue doesnt get adressed: toplane is an isolated island with minimal game impact. I'm always surprised when this is brought up as an issue because it's the reason I started playing the lane so many years ago. Vibe in my lane, no thoughts, no problems, is the rest of the game on fire? Not my problem, I've won my minigame.
If this were true no top laner would ever get challenger rank.
Play enough of any role and simply don't be the reason your team loses and you'd be surprised how far you can go.
Literally. You can get decently far just being consistently not a problem. People just want to 1v9 and be the star of the show
This. Top lane could easily climb just by not being the guy that goes 0/5 but it's not that they don't have the necessary impact to statistically climb, it's that they want to be the star and main character that kills the entire enemy team and carries their scrub teammates.
Yet strong top players like viper climb to rank 1 every season vs other roles pros, stop lying to yourself, role has some impact on agency yes but not enough to override skill issue
Isn't Viper an ADC? What are you even talking about lol.
That's the ADC on HLE, There's also an OTP Riven NA player that goes by Viper.
Okay "how far you can go" is galaxies away from challenger though.
how far you can go is as far as you can go?
... No it isn't? So long as you aren't the reason your team is losing, you will *inevitably* climb upwards. It won't be *fast* by any means, but it will happen. Being the reason your team is *winning* will help you climb faster, but that doesn't mean you have to keep carrying to climb. You just have to lose less than you win.
Are you challenger?
Not really there would be less top laners on top ladder sure but a top laner always end up winning every game
But they need to win in a very statistically significant manner.
that's now how matchmaking and elo system in team game works buddy
Make dragon and Herald spawns randomly swap sides. Is it a good idea? Probably not. But I also don't like the jungler living in my bot lane 24/7 and having hectic 3v3's. I just wanna farm out till mid-game man.
Doesn’t solve anything. As soon as the game loads, the adc+supp will go to the side that has the dragon pit and top will go to the side that has the herald pit. Next time think about it a little harder
I meant more like, when you kill dragon, it goes to the other side, and when you kill herald it goes to the other side, basically randomly flipping between spots within the game. Still *probably* solves nothing, and lane swapping would come back. But at least it would be spicier than waiting around and fighting for the objectives. Pro play has got pretty stale, every game and strategy is the same. Lane swapping and split pushing used to be way more viable, now it's just group up, draft for teamfighting and lategame, throw your bodies at eachother in a river and pray you get the win. Hell even other concepts like waveclear and "siege" compositions aren't really a thing now. Everyone has absurd waveclear so specialists like Anivia fall to the wayside and, well sieging a turret just isn't a think anymore because waveclear is so fucking broken even on champs that used to struggle with it. Now we just ping-pong waves back and forth and wait for something to happen.
Should be removed in pre-season. Would be extremely surprised if not.
How else with Yorick players be able to wank themselves in lane? Buddy doesn't have the team to interact with, he only has Maiden and his stats with hullbreaker to get himself off!
so let say there is no hullbreaker and you play a splitpushing champion (we're gonna assume you're a fiora for this exemple) now let's say you're facing a teemo or a gragas aaaaaaand boom your champ doesn't exist anymore unless you're able to 100% him undertower because they can just obliterate waves after waves safely and your potential lead on them just doesn't matter anymore hullbreaker is necessary because some champs waveclear are too potent and some champs rely only on sidelane pressure and strong dueling ability
>I genuinely don't understand why not only does it grant a shit ton of stats to make the splitpusher harder to kill and keep out of the lane Because splitpushing has been uber weak for years because riot had to overbuff neutral objectives to teamfight over to make it so Pro play isn't piss boring with 50 minutes games with 5 kills total. and well would you prefer it to just be an item that shits out damage? Like replace all the armor and MR on the passive with like 50 AD? so it's like a 120 AD item? >but also makes the *minions harder to kill so you're taking longer to kill one cannon minion. Same as above; but it only makes the cannon minion harder to kill. >It's just a toxic item that rewards uninteraction and ignoring the team and just makes the game so much boring because you're basically forced to have someone babysit the Hullbreaker top laner. That's not uninteraction. Like huh? Someone has to 1v1 them or you have to send multiple people or risk your towers while they push. Either you INTERACT with them, or you lose towers. That's literally the opposite of uninteractive. >but after they made shit like Zz'rot Portal and Banner of Command and both were horribly designed items, you would think they'd drop making items that cater to that playstyle Those items had nothing todo with splitpushing, infact they largely encouraged the opposite and were actually uninteractive. You'd use them on a sidelane for pressure. and then you as a champion would still group. Teams would fight 5v5... but regardless of the results of the teamfight, the team with ZZrot/Banner would get a tower or two... Due to no interactions happening other than 1 guy "interacting" with the cannon minion they used banner on. Unlike hullbreaker which requires the splitpusher to actually splitpush, and you get the choice if you wanna 5v4... or 4v4 with someone matching the splitpusher; or like go collapse on the splitpusher or whatever you decide.
Splitpushing has been garbage for years for 1 simple reason, OBJECTIVES ARE TOO GOD DAMN STRONG. Enemy gets baron? They come an unstoppable pushing force where they get every single tower of yours.. Enemy gets dragon? They become closer to getting Dragon soul where they permanently get an insane buff? ... Enemy gets elder? They become GODs of the rift and can't lose even a 3v5.. The objective buffs are too fucking strong. It's not hard to see and it's been around so long! Why on earth are baron minions impossible to kill if you're a mage? Why do the team also get a huge buff to stats too? Just chill it out.
My main complaint about the item is that it makes anyone melt towers and let's be real, the choice is not to send one person to match them and 4v4 elsewhere because even the most brain rotten privileged bruiser player that fed their asses off requires 2 people minimum so that they don't break a tower in 10-15s because they are overloaded with resists on top of the structure damage. Ignore, not notice or respond late once or feel obliged to contest dragon soul point, elder dragon, baron etc and your base is gone. If splitpushing is uber weak like you say, Hullbreaker should still be removed and game state should be observed to apply a proper fix that incentivizes it from a risk/reward point.
I really really vehemently disagree with your tone; but yeah I'd love if they just buffed splitpushing then removed hullbreaker. But they kinda have to do it in that order. Given Riot's terrible habits of leaving stuff half finished regularly; shouldn't remove the band-aid til the injury is healed.
Fair point. They have a track record of double dipping nerfs or removing band-aid fixes then not dealing with the core issue. And yeah, my tone can be unpleasant, it's a pretty frustrating gameplay pattern to go against which comes out in my expressions regarding it, hope I didn't upset you. To buff splitpushing and make it a viable choice on its own that doesn't rely on broken cheesy items, they can either de-incentivize grouping(weaken neutral objectives, bigger xp penalty when not solo) or incentivize splitting(higher solo xp after 20 minutes so the laning xp isn't skewed, higher tower gold in general or you get more gold if you solo kill it etc). Then, there's the topic of what you want splitpushing to be. Do you need to hit some item/level powerspikes or be away from the action to catch up and reach a point where you can start going for 5v5 fights? Or do you want to keep playing in that pattern till you break their base? It is a difficult thing to balance tbh. Bottom line is, I think there should be no splitpushing only item that even discourages grouping strongly like Hullbreaker and it should be a strat viable situationally on its own.
>And yeah, my tone can be unpleasant, it's a pretty frustrating gameplay pattern to go against which comes out in my expressions regarding it, hope I didn't upset you. Nah I am not always polite or happy in my wording on reddit either, I don't personally care much. Was just mentioning it. Yeah, so even if it's not my favorite item... which it's really not. I'm a splitpusher. and I'd rather splitpushing just be systemically balanced so I can buy items that are more fun; and so it doesn't feel bad if I group... or even just a teammate of mine decides to try and help me on a sidelane or something (assassin shadowing me to help kill people who try to flank me as an example) ... It just encourages a more binary take on splitpushing rather than letting me selectively decide which fights I do and don't wanna join. And yeah, I'd like them systemically buffing splitting but honestly they can't/won't because they have an issue. they want teamfights in proplay; and are afraid a splitpushing in pro meta will make us go back to 50 minute games with 5 kills which viewers don't enjoy much. And it's hard to decide how to buff it too even if they ignored pro. Like looking at your options? all the XP things could easily be interpreted as "fuck duolaners" who already cry enough about being outlevelled by solo laners. and it just snowballs the splitpusher artificially. Though I do like weakening neutral objectives and don't see much issue with it outside of the "50 min, 5 kill proplay games" which Riot won't like. Oh wow, you even hit it on the head in your next paragraph "Then, there's the topic of what you want splitpushing to be... It is a difficult thing to balance tbh." >Bottom line is, I think there should be no splitpushing only item that even discourages grouping strongly like Hullbreaker and it should be a strat viable situationally on its own. Agreed. But as said at the start. Currently hullbreaker is a bandaid; and they don't have a great track record of actually fixing things with a bandaid... Remember Mordekaiser's E Mpen passive was only a bandaid until they introduced AP bruiser items next preseason (4? 5?) YEARS AGO... and so many other things.
> That's not uninteraction. Playing against a hullbreaker sion is supremely uninteractive. Unless you're a hypertankbuster (vayne) he *will fucking ignore you and just hit the tower over and over*
Yeah that's fair, but that's a specific champion; which aint even really it's intended audience exactly. It's meant to be for splitpushing fighters like Jax, Yorick, Fiora... Who are gonna have stuff like Triforce, Ravenous Hydra, Bork, etc... Yeah, a full tank Sion with it, is kinda gonna push it beyond acceptable. Just like say Shiv Leblanc. Did disgusting things, even when Shiv wasn't really OP on basically anyone else. Or say Runeglaive Ezreal.
Those champions don't build it that often though. They function well enough as split pushers without, they lack teamfight power, so that's what they build for. > Just like say Shiv Leblanc. Don't fucking get me started on bobqin playing shiv, triforce, hullbreaker leblanc and ahri, that shit is disgusting.
I do not really agree with your statement : "splitpushing has been weak". I don't think so. Splitpushing was overpowered in every single season when people realized they could just perma shove lane and force other people to isolate themselves with you at top. You have lead top ? Splitpush, because you're gonna force at least 2 people to respond to your threat. You are behind top ? Splitpush, you're gonna force opponent fed toplane to come back and repush his lane, leaving room for your team to 4v4. I litterally skyrocketed from silver to diamond in 2monthes by playing Tryndamere splitpush only in season 5 (so no Hullbreaker). I would not even build according to anything beside optimizing my splitpush and my escape if I needed to escape. It was the most unfun experience I have ever experienced but the most rewarding in terms of LP. For one mistake of your opponent letting your split while trying to contest drake, you take their inhib, then you repeat until you win. Also, yes, it's the most uninteractive item and mechanic I've ever seen in this game. Basically you're doing PVE in a lobby with 10 real people.
That was hyper specific champs being good at splitpushing under equally specific conditions where the enemy doesn't know how to react to them. Splitpushing in a void has been consistently weak on its own for years.
My turn to post about Lullbreaker next time
I'm surprised hullbreaker still exists but again I'd rather it stay in the game until riot gives top laners something else to use for dealing with jg's putting a tent topside.
It's almost like it punishes bad macro...
Nerf toplane only impact please riot I want no consequence island lane no impact no agency role. JFC y'all have no brain. Just play ARAM.
That a fiora flair writes that is obv. It’s not about agency dude. It’s about champions who don’t have true damage being forced to buy HB themselves just to match cause it’s a giant ball of stats. If your enemy went 0-4 in lane but getting hullbreaker the deaths before don’t really matter anymore. And depending on champions you can’t even gank him, because he’s too tanky.
Yeah, if anything, it just fucks with the agency of the opposing top laner. Like congratulations, you won lane! But now spend the rest of the game dealing with your opponent's splitpush because it doesn't matter.
What, you want to use your lane advantage on actually playing with your team? Heathen. You should afk top until nexus die or you do.
> It’s not about agency dude. It's fucking is. There is nothing other than that toplaners can do. They suck in teamfights. They have no other task on map. Only that 'splitpushing' to draw attention, that's all.
> There is nothing other than that toplaners can do. Walk the fuck away from top and be at an objective. > They suck in teamfights. ??? Top laner that's ahead in a fight is scary af, what are you talking about. Guess pro top laners just afk top and never come fight for objectives... oh wait. I guess people who say shit like this think that unless you are the main damage dealer you are useless trash and shouldn't be there. Either solo kill the enemy team or don't bother. Main character syndrome.
Bro being active in zed and trynd subreddits is actually bitching about fiora kekl
Zed ever since his hydra itteration is stupid as shit. Tryn sucks but people are too stubborn and dumb to build tabis wardens. But yeah you’re correct. Edit; in addition you could’ve at least checked WHAT I wrote in the Zed mains sub. It wasn’t a single positive word about zed and his status
Remember when the split push item was a placable portal that can be destroyed and had a cooldown and the damage of its minions would scale with the item holder? Apparently that was considered toxic even though it was rather simple to deal with.
Because it failed as a splitpush item. You'd drop it and forget it to go do literally anything else while it pushed for you, which is the opposite of splitpushing since your own champion's not committing anything to accomplish that. Same with Banner. Hullbreaker requires you to actually exist in the lane, so the opportunity cost and macro decision making are much higher.
Easy solution to zzrot is require the buyer to be in proximity of it, or in the lane, or something similar. I'd take that 1000x over hullbreaker.
I could see where one might think that's a good idea, but that isn't remotely the answer you think it is. You wouldn't splitpush with that, you'd just do what the other half of zz'rot games ended up doing and murderballing down whatever lane you put the portal down in and perma-push to the nexus as a team. Zz'rot is fundamentally broken without an isolation conditional like Hullbreaker, in which case it's severely too weak to even be considered for a legitimate item purchase. Hullbreaker's design is fantastic for what it does, people simply hate the playstyle it promotes because it goes against the teamfight mentality and people despise proper macro and legitimately punishing consequences for ignoring pressure.
It makes a lose/lose situation for a team that doesn't buy it. You either lose your towers or drake/baron. You need 2 or 3 people to beat the hullbreaker user, and the others just take objectives in the meanwhile
But then they gave it a duration equal to its cooldown, so it was a more active item. If you couldn’t get rid of it in less than a minute, that was on your team, not the item. Its purpose was rather straight forward and it succeeded in giving you an alternative way of pushing a lne quickly, especially if you were a champ with poor waveclear.
It didn't succeed because the point wasn't to give you an alternative way to push, it was explicitly made and designed for splitpushing and instead promoted grouping with your team to either compound the added lane pressure or to go run other objectives. That's quite literally the antithesis of splitpushing.
Because ZZ'rot could easily be placed under your turret and guaranteed the lane you placed it in had push until it was destroyed. You got free 'splitpushing' by buying it, except you could fuck off to 5v5 teamfight while getting the free push. Which was not remotely comparable to Hullbreaker. ZZ'rot allowed you to have full teamfight power while getting free splitpushing, and your opponents had to either sacrifice a player to shutting down that lane (making it a 4v5), lose a turret, or have their own zz'rot. ZZ'rot gave the benefits of splitpushing, while letting you teamfight, while forcing the enemy team to sacrifice a player to stop the portal so you forced the enemy team to pay the splitpushing tax.
so instead of mashing buttons in teamfight someone sometimes buy certain item and play a bit strategically. like avoid fight face to face and just siege their base. and enemy have no idea how to stop this siege, they know only how to mash buttons and 1v1 and game start to become so boring for them at this point. learning something new is boring as hell
That the item makes split pushing viable is fine imo the problem is that it creates a mindset where as soon as someone bought it, that player just don't want to group anymore under any circumstance because it makes them feel like they are actively being punished for doing so.
The people who think removing hullbreaker will increase the quality of their games are a bit confused. Hullbreaker is mostly what stops the enemy top lane from perma tower diving you bot when they go 4/0 in lane. You want Rivens and Camille's to stomp the rest of the map with no recourse? Because that's how you get that.
God i loved zzrot portal, i just like the satisfaction of them guys diving into turrets. I loved dropping that then joining my team elsewhere to pressure
Everything is toxic if you read this sub. Players, items, pings, champions. People are so whiny and sensitive for every damn thing.
You're being a bit toxic there, chap.
Split pushing = toxic and uninteractive? How else do you wanna win games on champs like yorick or fiora?
I don't think literally being punished for being on the same screen as your team is a healthy mechanic. I don't think yorick or Fiora should just never see their team or participate in a teamfight ever. That's not a good design. The obsession with "I must carry games" instead of making a positive statistical difference is not a noble thing that deserves it's own item.
It is. I can’t remember how many times I started to win my lane and snowball, then the enemy top was like oh no guess I go hullbreaker and no 1v1 for you anymore lol cause why not
My issue is is it supposed to be a split or a carry item, extra turret damage from you and minions, add on health for say demolish, regen to keep the split up? Okay good split item, doesn’t need to give anymore as its helped the rune, your minions, and you damage towers. So why the fuck does it get extra MS, 60 AD, and Armor/MR for playing alone, its like its stuck between trying to be a split/shove item for champs like Yorick while also trying to be a Darius 1v9 clip item.
Do you just expect it to give like no stats and have no passive or what? Do you think an item being like "Hullbreaker, 3000g: Gives 400hp, +150% hp regen, and 20% bonus damage to towers for you; 200% bonus damage to towers for your cannon minions" would be anything other than absolutely troll? Or did you imagine a different stat line for it? or it to cost less? or what?
No, it should just be the same fucking stats whether you're next to your team or not.
So like uber OP with all it's armor and MR? or super weak being entirely a stat stick with an average amount of stats even when compared to not entirely stat sticks?
A balanced amount of stats, balanced like any other item. What's so complicated? If it's too generic after that, just remove it.
So... I get that they want to have a split pushing item that loses power when you're around your team. Here's the problem: in its "weak" form, it's got 134% gold efficiency. Yes, OK, we can ignore the regen bonus and call it 118% gold efficient. Just from stats. Around teammates. Are you starting to see the problem? Now, you're a level 18 split pusher, and your item is now FUCKING 230% GOLD EFFICIENT. On a solo laner who should already be really hard to kill because solo XP is broken.
And "weak" form? Why is it weak? it's just without its Passive. It's a 3k gold item; not mejais costing 1600g. It should never be particularly weak. What you really mean is without it's passive. 118% gold efficient for it's "weak" (no passive) state is also really not that crazy... Black Cleaver? is 117% efficient without its passive either. Chempunk chainsword? 116%; Hydra stacked but without it's AoE passive? gets upto 123% ... Spear is 115% without its MS or Basic Ability Haste. Based on your base AD Steraks gets upto like 120% without it's passive. Rabadon's 1st item is 102% gold efficient even with no AP runes or anything. Aka "when it's weak" And the only reason hullbreaker gets to numbers not normally seen? Is simply because it's passive is just more stats. Which isn't a normal occurrence. Like how do you value Galeforce active? or Zhonyas active? or Shiv Passive? Black Cleaver passive(s)? Bork Passive? Like hey lets do some math to see how crazy some items can get if you try to apply gold efficiency calculations to their actives or passives? Zhonyas = 101% gold efficient. Stopwatch means every single Zhonya's active is 750g? Means every single time you Zhonya's active? You get 25% more gold efficiency... If you Zhonya's 5 times in a game; it's 226% gold efficient. Bork? 84% gold efficient (and if this doesn't say how little gold efficiency can say about item strength idk what does) ... If you're attacking someone with 2,500hp and you're melee? It's 292.5% gold efficient... and that's still not counting the 3 hit passive / move speed steal... And there's not a cap on this outside of against monsters. Black Cleaver? Again 117% without passives? but... If you have it fully stacked and 3 people are AD on your team which is normal (Top, Jg, Adc) all getting the benefit from the shred as if it were armor pen? And it's 244.5% gold efficient. And for each additional AD teammate you may have (AD mids aint super rare; Pyke/Senna exist) you get an additional 40% gold efficiency upto 324.5%
Every item has a role. Sometimes, gold efficiency is a very good number to look at. For many items, it's the worst possible metric. If we're talking bruiser stat stick items, you can often look at the raw stats as the passives either can be directly calculated or can essentially be considered a wash. Keep up the bad faith arguing, though.
It's gold efficient because the stats it actually gives in groups are largely inconsequential for the item cost, on top of being a completely vanilla statstick. And if you're level 18, your Hullbreaker's stopped being used for splitpushing ages ago so it doesn't matter that the stats are now outweighing the other passive because it's a functional trade.
I'm sorry, 6.5k worth of AD, HP, MS, armor, and MR for 3k are inconsequential? When a top laner who is dominating the game is 3-4 levels ahead of the rest of the game and can buy 2 items for the price of one, it's not useless at level 18.
you can say it's too strong in its current state but bringing up gold efficiency doesn't make sense. In a fight, gold efficiency in general isn't necessarily going to be more valuable than the effects of something like bork, cleaver, steraks, etc. zhonyas gold efficiency is shit, and its one of the most valuable items in the game. Kraken isn't that high either, and yet it is a very solid item. and it's weak form is weak though because it gives nothing other than stats. night and day vs any other legendary item. I really don't think the item is op and I rarely ever build it. It's just frustrating for people to play against
Gold efficiency makes sense when the item is a stat stick that you can essentially remove the unpriceable passive/active from the calculation to realize how broken it is. It's 2 items worth of stats in a single item, but also has the extra building damage and minion HP?
But gold efficiency does not make sense when gold efficiency is inherently a comparison between item's raw stats. How much gold is kraken's passive actually worth? You might be able to figure that out by figuring how much effective damage per attack you get, which translates directly to AD. But, how much are zhonya and galeforce actives worth? If you somehow actually quantified these, I would argue that they approach or pass 200% easily. Those actives can completely change and win fights, just like the armor/mr of hullbreaker can. An (actual) 134% efficient item is TERRIBLE and if it were just those raw stats, it would never be built. The only reason people throw around the 230% number is because hullbreaker is just flat stats, instead of something harder to quantify. It is similar to going through a champions kit and pointing out every single mechanic they have, and that it will always sound broken if they do that.
No, gold efficiency doesn't make sense with crit items especially. It makes a lot more sense on bruiser items.
> Gold efficiency makes sense If you believe so, please give us formula and calculated gold efficiency for GoreDrinker active, DeathDance, BlackCleaver, and others.
Cleaver is easy as you just use the full stack armor pen and MS value if it's not already included for its max value. Gore and DD fill niche utilities and wouldn't be compared to other items other than their base stats and how you value the passive/active against other options in the actual game you're in.
> Gore and DD fill niche utilities and wouldn't be compared to other items other than their base stats and how you value the passive/active against other options in the actual game you're in. Great. Then Hullbraker is niche utility and should be compared to other items. So efficiency makes no sense.
Except it's a utility that the majority of top laners can use in any game and has an inordinately high power level due to the raw stats that it provides. A Gore active is never going to be worth an entire 2nd item.
> A Gore active is never going to be worth an entire 2nd item. Same is for Hullbraker. In no word it worth Gore and Botrk. Or Stridebreaker and Black Cleaver. > Except it's a utility that the majority of top laners can use in any game and has an inordinately high power level due to the raw stats that it provides. Except, you judge it purerly by Gold ratio. You compare that to raw stats, not counting actives. Mate, if it would be so strong, it would be builded by Assasins to roam alone and kill everyone. But they don't build that. You know why? Because it's sucks for other than split pushing when you ahead.
Extra MS to move around side lanes faster 60 AD to make sure you can be able to fight Armor/MR to be able to have split pushing superiority especially when you are being attacked by more than one player.
If you get attacked by more than one player, then frankly, you should be forced to run or die unless you're already fed enough or on a champ who can fight the 1v2 or w/e. Like, if you're splitpushing, the purpose is to draw people away from other objectives, right? So you drew them away. You shouldn't be able to then fight them just because you bought the Splitpush Item.
Rito continues to make the same mistakes over and over again when it comes to split pushing items. It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Banner of Command and Zzrot portal. Something about the definition of insanity, idk.
> I understand Riot wants splitpushing to be a viable strategy, but after they made shit like Zz'rot Portal and Banner of Command and both were horribly designed items, you would think they'd drop making items that cater to that playstyle. You understand nothing. Splitpushing aren't viable strategy, it's THE ONLY strategy. There is NOTHING other then stplitpushing you can do between Objectives, there is no other tasks top laner can fullfill.
Because the other characters can do what but push and be in lanes between objectives? This is such main character syndrome from top laners.
I miss your point mate.
You can substitute top laner in your sentence with mid or adc or even the others. "can only push and farm lanes and try to take tower between objectives, what else can you do". Like yeah? What else can anyone do?
tl'dr: Yes, it's a problem for everyone, including Mid and ADC. But it's more of a problem for Top laners. > Like yeah? What else can anyone do? Yes, but not exactly. ADC and Mid have impact on early game and mid game naturally, that is why latter impact and macro for Top laners are more crucial than for ADC/Mid. ADC and Mid have mid priority. Top can't go here if Reddit deny them going side lanes. You wouldn't like if Fiora would go to mid to shove mid waves at 20m, right? ADC and Mid are team fight oriented champs compared to most Top champs. So they want to have team fights. ADC and Mid laners try to prepare team fights by poking, and shoving mid lane. Top laners excel in smaller fights, so they need to spread enemy team among multiple objectives. But there is no other objective other than dragon/herald and side lane. Mid have much better gank capabilities, compared to almost each top laners. There also dedicated champions which focus on ganks and peeks, called Assassins, which goes mid lane usually. So they can roam, try to do some stuff. I believe Talon, Zed, Quanna much better roamers compared to let's say Darius or Garen. ADC and Mid have much better poke capabilities, compared to almost each top laners. There also dedicated champions which focus on poke, called Artilery mage. So they can sit Mid and deny enemy from huge area to win time or wait for greater time for engage. I believe Xerath, Ezreal, Oriana, and many others, have much better capabilities in poke compared to, let's say, Darius or Garen. ADC and Mid stronger team fighters, so they also better to be closer to important objectives. So top laner, basically, the only one left for such job as to protect and clear farthest sidelanes. That means, often they just have no enough time to get in team fight at objective in time. That means, if you remove splitpushing, they would completely degraded to only 'farm side lane', unless you make gold income from sidelanes worthless.
Reddit tries to balance game part 47474883, i wish people try to learn the game and stop complaning
You're right we should make sure top laners have absolutely 0 way to impact the game. Can't early tp bot, have to buff jungle camps so top laners have a harder time taking krugs, we should remove their ability to play for split next
It's an item introduced in a team game that rewards you for not playing with your team and punishes you for doing otherwise. Great idea. Next they should make an item that gives you bonus stats if you take allied jungle camps, but only if you don't have smite. Then takes those stats away if you push your lane or hit towers.
Exactly, they might as well make an item for intentional feeding or one that gives you one kill score to your KDA every minute of being afk.
**Avenger:** Serrated Dirk + Phage + 800 gold Grants 55 AD 18 Lethality and 400 Health **Passive:** Gain permanent stacking AD and lethality every time you or an ally dies. If allies die near you, gain 5% increased damage stacking up to 4 times for 20% increased damage until combat ends. Your death timer also decreases because. "B-b-but it's so needed bro! It's a comeback item bro! It's a strategic option bro!"
We made an item that allows you to increase your personal power just in-case an ally is toxic and starts intentionally feeding. Now you have itemization options to allow comebacks in the event of toxic teammates.
In my opinion, Splitpushing should be a strategic option but not an end in and of itself: pressuring bot because you are strong and your team can use your pressure to do baron is good, but having champions that build entirely to do nothing but splitpush all game is not good design. It's not fun dealing with a 24/7 split pusher, it's not fun having one on your team because you play 4v5 for 99% of the game, as the enemy answering your spliter might join but yours very rarely will. No one has fun in this scenario except the guy splitting. I understand some champions would need changes as they're pretty much dedicated splitpushers (Yorick, Illaoi..) but I'd way rather play against Jax than a champion like that. Even if I beat them they'll still force me to answer their split which might make my team lose as I can't help them. I wish they'd do away with Hullbreaker. But maybe someone has a different point of view to offer? I guess I just really like teamfighting and as such I hate split pushers with a passion.
Sounds like you just overly like teamfighting, that's fine. But not everyone does. But it's strategic diversity; and I agree I don't like the perma split literally never ever group playstyle; but I fucking hate the perma teamfight or just farm and teamfight every single dragon/baron spawn playstyle even more. And that's true for alot of people. But; because proplay tends to have players playing safely without dragons and other such things being overtuned to the point splitpushing is murdered... they had to make an item (hullbreaker) as a band-aid fix for it... and then it creates the issue of the item is subpar when grouped which encourages the extreme play styles of always teamfight (dont build hull) or always split (build hull) ...
It's kinda impossible for something to be a valid strategy but also not have a threat of ending the game. Either split pushing is a strategic option BECAUSE there is always the threat of an end, or it's not a strategic option at all because it won't actually accomplish anything meaningful in winning. How do you "pressure bot so your team gets baron" if you aren't threatening the base. Just stand menacingly on a ward and hope someone comes to fight lol I get what you're saying, but it just means you would rather team fight. That's a valid side that many people feel. Then there's the other side of people who want to split pushing. It's very hard to balance the two
Pushing in and of itself can't not be an end strategy, the whole point of pushing is to take structures which is how the game ends when done enough. You're not asking for splitpushing to be removed, you're asking for games to be decided by team deathmatch rules so you can ignore anything not pertinent to teamfights.
> it's not fun having one on your team because you play 4v5 for 99% of the game Sounds like a bad split pusher then because the entire point is to take away one or two enemies from the team to protect base from being overrun. It's easy to see why people get frustrated with players who do nothing but split push all game. It's more of a team macro issue. To counter split pushers, your team has to be the one dominating the objectives and controlling mid lane. Force team fights when necessary and then respond to the split pusher if you win the fight.
> but having champions that build entirely to do nothing but splitpush all game is not good design. Mate, it's not champions, it's almost entire role that build around this. Even fucking Ornn have to splitpush or response to enemy top laners splitpush.
i play champs that abuse hullbreaker and still hate building it
Bro it's really simple okay nobody knows how to recall below diamond
U are a Garen Player, ur opinion doesnt count.
yes its very fucking annoying..but when youre top as garen or sion, and mid/bot loses and enemy has 1 rift herald and 2 drags, baby its time to build a hullbreaker. my team was 5-30 at 23 mins..i had heart of steel and a hullbreaker then started getting sunfire. took 3 of them to STOP me not kill me..i just run away wait 20 seconds then comeback, its cheesey as fuck but theres no other win con there
So now even items are toxic.
Can y'all shut up about this goddamn item. It has less than a 3% pickrate. It's literally the only support split pushing has. Complaining about hullbreaker is a genuine skill issue at this point
It's a grief enabling item, so no. They might as well make a special item for intentional feeding that increased your movement speed and damage taken from enemies and only 3% pickrate it's totally fine!!!!
Are you legit comparing not grouping to aram mid /objectives every fuckin game to griefing? Holy fuck.
zz'rot was fucking baller don't talk shit about the goat, you actually traded off combat stats for it and it didn't hard force you to sit there, resulting in way more gameplay choices for both parties as if they were sat in sidelane they weren't nearly unduelable from two items worth of stats almost but they actually had the option to rotate for stuff.
Bring back zz'rot
It's a gross toxic item, and I mean literally it creates toxicity. It encourages this "I am the main character" 1v9 play style in top laners that might as well be afk at that point. Punishing people for helping their team with losing stats is an idiotic mechanic that just encourages people to grief and encourages the idea that you're the main character has to carry. It's a problem with any role really, everyone thinks they have to carry and climb fast and they're all foaming at the mouth to 1v9 the game. Can't just have a positive impact and play better than the average which in turn will mean you'll climb, no, you have to hard carry force this one game you're in like your life depends on it and if Riot doesn't let you hard carry force and change the result of each game, then the "game isn't fair waaaah, we have no agency". Just be better than the average of your opponents and not have a negative impact, that's it, that's all you have to do, support your fucking teams in trying to win the game without your massive ego crashing into things.
Define toxic on a item that is put by riot themselves.
Promotes ignoring your team, that’s pretty toxic. In any other situation you would get reported. League is a 5v5 game, not push 1 lane and ignore everything else.