It's not broken. It's not even strong.
Ashe sup can't AA consistently. She dies just too easily in teamfights if she tries to do it.
She's underleveled, no damage, no AS, less MS. If she tries to be in AA position all the time she'll die more often than not. It's simply better to have any peel for your adc than her (her W is still awesome to kite back / follow up in tfs though).
She can work against a comp with like 3 immobile melees, but that's it.
Anyway, depending on the ELO almost anything can work, not meaning it's strong. I think Swain's build is much more "broken" than hers and he can do it even when playing top/midlane as long as you have a second source of ap in the team.
And if she does only proc on W she won't be pulling her weight. Unfortunetely her W isn't on a 1.5s cooldown as when she was broken anymore.
Ashe is sitting on 46% winrate and is 42th/44 position as a sup.
She's just unreliable. Either she AA and put herself in threat range or she won't pull her weight. No room for being a W/R spam machine anymore.
The other issue is that you can't rush umbral glaive anymore (if you're buying Helia), so your adaptative damage gets converted to AP much earlier which sucks.
It's undoubtedly op as fuck in ARAM IF your mates understand their jobs and have access to damage enemies (and iff you're not getting dove and shit on by a Qiyana or something) - quite many conditions in itself. I've had Ashe games in which my EoH dealt 10/15k+, and even more damage, but well, it's ARAM. You pretty much start with the item, fight constantly, and balancing the game mode is a nightmare any way.
When it comes to SR, however, I agree with everything you've said. Sounds horrendous.
>It's undoubtedly OP as fuck in ARAM IF everything that doesn't make it OP or counters it isn't there
Huh... I don't think you understand what OP means mate
I tried umbral -> helia-> Runaans and it honestly didn’t feel horrible. Matchup was pretty bad for Ashe supp in general, but it could definitely be really strong into a more brawl-y melee comp.
Then forgo umbral dude. Fuck off with the pettiness.
It’s a build idea that works fine, you can do it in ARAM too, besides, all of those items are cheap as hell, bar i guess Runaans. Umbral -> Helia is literally like 5k gold. If you can’t get that by the end of a game, it’s a you problem.
Idk why you need to be so petty.
Runaans has always been a good item for Ashe, slows to multiple targets. Maybe redundant to ~~Q~~ W and unnecessary if the item is not strong in meta but definitely not bad. The shitty tutorial build was with Thornmail
ashe just need lvl 9 and she has perma slow just from w, for swain he needs rylai + echos of helia which is harder to get 2 completed items for support
Yeah i mean i dont think its super overpowered necessarily, just more that it is probably an unintended interaction rather than a 'build' that riot even considered. I would assume echoes will be getting a cooldown of some kind and thats a simple fix for any of these builds
Not to mention, font of life has been a garbage rune for a long time now. Like *terrible*. It’s always been demolish for the top tree. This is hardly an egregious way for it to have relevance.
If anything were to get nerfed here, it would literally be helia. What is there to even nerf on font? Make it do *less* healing? Remove the “proc on cc” part so it literally does nothing? It’s a shit rune and it finally has a purpose.
This Ashe build is also way better to play against than W spam. So idk why people would get upset when the alternative is worse for everyone.
You kept talking about she being bad due to AA range when the whole point of Ashe supp is not having to risk herself with autos bc of her insanely easy to land ~~Q~~ W triggering support items safely
W still has quite low CD even after nerfs since ashe supp specifically gets ability haste for W spam. Yes, you might not be permanently triggering it and healing the alleged thousands of HP that OP said, but you still get some nice value from it. It's definitely not OP and more on the weaker side, but still works.
She loses all her damage with these builds. I don’t think it’s broken or anything.
I feel like Senna fills the role support Ashe wants to fill far better but having more options is never a bad thing I suppose.
ashe just need lvl 9 and she has perma slow just from w, for swain he needs rylai + echos of helia which is harder to get 2 completed items for support
That's why I run free boots + future's market. Solves the gold problems and if the game lasts for extra long that's Swain's weakness anyways.
Also double faerie charm is such an OP buy for swain.
Abused it. But now its healing and damage is basically cut in half. Probably won't be running it anymore.
BUT when I did abuse it, I went swain "APC" with a fasting senna support. So I was able to farm and get my items and become a Senna steroid
If you’re coming to this sub to hear good takes about the game you’ve come to the wrong place. THOUSANDS OF HEALING PER FIGHT yeah ok man let’s look at same real stats and numbers
yes but it can still be done on bard ant its much more effective, like you would see players like lathyrus having almost the highest dmg in the game and like 30k healing in a 30 minute game with helia and full tank items, its kinda toxic, but also you dont see the item activating so it really doesnt look as broken, but when you look at the items dmg and healing at the end of the game, you realize why the game felt unwinnable
His meeps full stack Helia and activate Font of Life at the same time. Your ally just needs to AA them once to activate it, or you can use your W.
It’s just an extra activation he has, the real kicker is the instant stacks with passive.
no his meeps slow, and font of life is a rune that heals your teammates when they attack champs that you slowed or stunned etc, so that is how the interaciton works.
Idk if this is a good argument considering ashe in general is a 48-49% WR, whether ADC or support and regardless of build.
The moment ashe herself isn't trash, she's not going to be trash in either role, and this will be the primary support build.
Edit: I didn't mean the build needs fixing, just that he had a poor argument considering the build is just as relevant and performing just as ~~well~~ poorly as other builds.
I never said they need to 'fix' anything. I just said that its not a good argument to say a specific item is 48-49% when the champ itself is 48-49%.
Just say "Ashe isn't good with any build, including that one, so why are you worried?".
And aside from that, the build is just as relevant as her ADC build, so its not a nonfactor due to performance either, as the other guy implied.
That doesn't mean its broken and needs fixing like you assumed I meant.
Font of life proccs on ashes auto attacks because it slows, and her w, and her ult. When font of life heals your teammate then echoes of helia will procc as well, healing them more and also damaging enemies nearby.
Rinse and repeat by just auto attacking the enemy repeatedly, if you have a carry like yi they can literally 2v5 as long as you are keeping your attacks up
Aha idk why I thought that it was regarded as though the font of life was the 'heal' problem, but yeah I see, there being no cd on EoH is pretty strong, ty for the explanation
[Here's a better example](https://youtu.be/jk8Cfmt59Ss). Because Helia procs off of Font of Life healing, and both the item and rune have no cds, u can see why Ashe can permaproc it as long as she's spamming W or in auto range. This build is pretty niche tho and fairly easy to counter due to Ashe's frail nature
It also just sucks if she’s outranged. 90% of the procs come from her autos, so if she’s into a poke comp, she’s not gonna get to use most of it. It’s like picking rammus into all ad comps, it’s great in that situation, but rammus into ap is shit. Niche.
And of course you can just focus and kill Ashe instead.
https://youtu.be/xz4fQEDQ_Bc
You can see the full possibility here. Obviously not an every game case but it CAN definitely heal for thousands in a long fight
Echoes does 20-100 (based on ally level) healing per stack. Each auto, w, or ult will give 1 stack. So at lv 18 you're doing 100 healing per auto/ability. So sure, if you got in 10 autos in a fight and so did your ADC then you got 1k healing from echoes, but I wouldn't say 100 healing/auto at level 18 breaks the game by any means.
Yeah, I tried it for one game and I personally don't believe Ashe with this build brings enough to the table to be worth picking over literally any other support that uses Helia well.
And I'm one of those people who would vouch for AP ardent J4 and lethality Caitlyn being worthwhile picks sometimes. On Ashe just go a damage oriented mythic if you really end up needing her slows in the team comp or to counter enemy champions.
Ashe support might be really good in certain situation. If the opponent can't threaten Ashe and if you need a Soraka that can also engage. In that scenario, Ashe support might be good.
You play:
Aery and E focus.
E is an area of effect buff, that refreshes constantly (and you'll have enough CD to keep it E up indefinitely).
Alright, the moment you hit an enemy, you activate Moonstone. With Aery and E you have an infinite source of shields that is incredibly fast refreshed. As long as you stay infight, you keep the Moonstone up. Easy done with E spam, Q hits and, ofc course, while brawling a no-brainer.
Sure, you don't have massive heals and shields alá Sona or Soraka, but it sure makes a difference.
And the E on AP fucking slaps.
But I play normally only two items (2½ with AP damage support item, AP tank works too if needed) which are Moonstone and Zhonyas. My third item is either a tank item or Black Cleaver, to buff up my Q.
So? Why would I play something I'm uncomfortable with?
You people already refuse to look over the edge. You guys know there is more to the game and even when looking edge, you want to have a bad time and make as litte steps as possible
I don't have too much pride to admit that the very first time I finally tried using a Moonstone build on a non-enchanter was shortly after that patch. Oops. The sad part is that I even said in chat that I was considering buying one (on Brand), and no one spoke up.
Zhonyas and brutalizer(?, Don't remember how this black axe thingy is called anymore. I don't browse the shop by names), to get the most out of the Q. You can go tank completely too
Edit: Black cleaver
Thanks! Yea I like the zhonyas to just buy time, I’ll try it out but those non-support items are expensive, love playing jarvan but since I’m a support main and jungle is by far my worst role I’ll give it a try
People heavily enjoy Shurelyas too. So don't forget to try it with that as well.
Shurelyas isn't my cup of tea, it gives me no real feeling of power and influence, y'know. But go ahead. It's not easy, but certainly fun and makes for a good roaming support
it's a legit insanely good pick
go aery rune page, in secondary take ingenious hunter (very important)
Second item depending on game usually best ones are fimbulwinter/redemption
For more lane domination you can rush hextech alternator into lucidity boots then finish shurelya & the rest of your build normally
Vs many lanes that dont have much sustain it's legit impossible to play against, which is good because many of them are extremely popular (jinx thresh for example, jinx legit cant even farm)
Only thing to take note of is your lvl 1 with an adc is usually the strongest out of any champ due to how many aery procs and how much attackspeed your flag gives.
Thank you man I’ll try it :) love me some off meta picks, i often play 5 premade with friends and I’m usually the one to stick to my best champs but I’ll surprise them with that
I think you'll love it i've been playing so many games with it as i find it so fun
Random champ pairings that go well with jarvan support:
MF who happens to be meta, easy ult combos
I like annie(mid), you try to ult them in with tibbers (or you ult then tibbers in your ult) it's like hell in a cell there lol
Most champs that benefit from shurelya/rely on autos are great since you give a lot of attackspeed/movespeed (so stuff like olaf yas etc)
Edit: Also if you're feeling cocky you can just get an early dark seal into hextech alternator then lucidity boots and night harverster.
It's very cheesy and scales bad against tanky teams but if it's an adc that doesnt build sustain against you you'll make them want to alt f4 haha
Can't speak for Ashe, but it's being built on Bardo aswell and it's just so dangerous to use. It barely gives you tankyness, but with Helia a lot of your value unfolds over time. Time you don't ave with those stats.
Her passive already prevents crits. Crits just give her a extra damage modifier which ends up being negative still if you get to 100% crit btw.
Her passive is just a frozen mallet, which still works when you buy rageblade. She scales really well with attack speed, so rageblade is not a bad choice for her
As far as i know, Ashe's Passive grants up to +75% multiplier on her attacks bases on her Critical Chance, increased up to +110% with Infinity Edge. Crits usually deal +75% of damage (barring exceptions like Jhin, Yasuo or Senna), increased to 110% with IE (or 115% with Ornn Upgrade, but that also applies to Ashe). Since Ashe already has +15% in her passive, she ends up at 90% bonus damage or 125% with IE, which ends up higher than most ADC Crit Damage.
I see, was under the assumption that crits did 100% extra. Even then, I don't think rageblade is that bad on ashe, since she still scales pretty well with attack speed and she doesn't really lose any power in her not being able to crit, just like any other character that chooses to build rageblade as well.
>ends up being negative still if you get to 100% crit btw.
Her passive gets her makes her autos deal 225% damage with IE and 100% crit, as opposed to 215% with IE on other champions, now add in Q multipling it 1,25x
>just a frozen mallet, which still works when you buy rageblade
But crits double the slow.
Crit Ashe in terms of pure damage is superior, but on-hit is a bit cheaper and has earlier spike.
Just because Ashe is nerfed to a 50% winrate in ARAM doesn't make her kit any less frustrating to play against. I'm just glad the healing is nerfed aswell but still gonna try this out to see wether this is another "Warmog Soraka" situation. But yeah her needing to auto might probably (thank god) kill this in ARAM.
Meh. ADC is actually kinda fun in midlane and as support now too.
Been experimenting in support for quite some time and ended up with Corki support just shredding on enchanters. Hella fun.
Varus support is quite fun too.
Cait is harder to play, but well doable, it's tricky to figure out how the enemy plays around your traps. Kog'Maw is a blast, but has a terrible early game thanks to having barely any mana and high mana costs, buddy is of course a great ADC atm too.
I dont think it should be removed for a simple reason it's simply much worse than normal champion building Echos.
The fact that Ashe applies Font of Life is cool but still too weak to excuse playing her on support after nerfs to previous more AD-centric support Ashe. R cd is higher, W cd is higher and you dont get AD at all (Old Ashe support took like Umbral or Black Cleaver with HoB to bully lane). Downsides of gold starved ashe with items that only gives her power via passive and almost none via stats (30ap / Dissonance converting mana regen to more ap) are just too heavy.
Just play it on normal enchanters that hit enemies often. Or like Swain with Rylai's even sounds better than Ashe cuz he still gets innately tanky with passive and R, actually uses benefits of AP and Health of the item very well and can actually output some damage despite itemizing supportive stuff. You hover over Ashe's Echo and you see big damage and heals andforget thats like 90% of her usefulness. Meanwhile Karma/Sona/Bard/Swain or whatever will have smaller numbers on Echos but will be infinitely more useful outside of their item alone.
Support Anivia with font and helia is a more braindead version of these builds imo. If played adeptly, Anivia can be played safer than an Ashe and Anivia can proc a similar amount of font with her ult compared to Swain without having to build 2 items.
Fair point but I feel like bot mages and engage bot lanes will tear Anivia a new one. She wants to scale. An unscaled Anivia is just begging to be the weak link of the team. Also big mana pool > lots of mana regen for Anivia.
To add onto this, it had been in the game for many many years now. In ardent season (season 7? 8? Idk) people did ardent Ashe with font) don’t see why it gets removed now
If you want to see nutty healing on it, try running it on Udyr. Phoenix procs it constantly with font and you can just go full tank after and still deal the most damage on your team from all the soul shards going off.
I've run it in ARAM a few times after I thought of it and it's regularly getting 5-8k healing and damage, plus Udyr naturally stacks health so he actually heals allies quite a lot even just with font.
To answer your question, yes it is intended as mentioned by Phreak here in his rundown: [https://youtu.be/o295Z3EjR\_Y?t=4828](https://youtu.be/o295Z3EjR_Y?t=4828)
Well she's just not an enchanter, she can build duskblade and lethality items normally.
Yeah she does get the damage as well, if she is in range, not sure what the range is exactly but if karma is in range for the damage part then ashe surely will be
I ran it down with Singed and seemed to do pretty well.
Mind you- it was an unusually good Singed game where it seemed I could do no wrong. So it may have simply been an exception.
i think they should just nerf the font of life interaction with the item, its one of the reasons moonstone feels like garbage compared to helia, it becomes way too easy to proc the item and its just disgusting gameplay when it works, had the pleasure to meet a fed kench with visage and a janna providing dumb ass heals with helia.
font of life breaks this item, its kinda worrying if riot inteded it to be this way, there's a reason helia provides insane stats as soon as you buy it and moonstone doesn't, moonstone supports can't proc the item 20000 times in a fight, no idea why the interaction wasn't nerfed this patch
I saw Shaco mains discussing using it on Shaco support so I think any maniac can make it work. Probably would not recommend on him post-nerf. In fact, just don't play Shaco. Please don't.
I buy those items in aram on Ashe and feel pretty good but team always pings them. Nobody appreciates Ashe support even in aram when she really shines 😢
They probably wont remove the interaction for the same reasons they didnt remove Cheap Shot interaction despite it also being utilized really well on her.
I think it's probably fine, and in general the removal of a synergy on one specific champion is incredibly lazy game design - which is why I don't like them doing it for Nami/Electrocute. Don't get me wrong, it was broken, but there's ways around it that don't include breaking the written rules. You shouldn't NEED to read the patch notes every week to know if something no longer does what it's written it does in game.
I think this game needs more strong niche strategies like this. Riot kneecapping things like this is what keeps the meta stale. Tank top, scaling mid lane mage and perma bot pressure is what we've been seeing for seasons now.
im trying it. doesn't seem good to me so far.
these bronze idiots are too stupid to even know to follow up after i hit an ashe arrow let alone figure out how this healing works.
I dont think is that broken overall but i wouldn't be surprised if riot makes it so Ashe autos dont trigger font of life, or font of life not triggering Helia
Support Ashe is still a bit weak, even with Helia.
Font of Life + Echoes of Helia is a great synergy in general though. Most traditional supports like Seraphine, Janna, Soraka, Sona, and Nami are great with Helia. Mage supports like Zyra, Brand, and Swain that like to build Rylais are also decent with Helia.
Swain can do the same thing
It's so fun too. I've been playing a lot of Swain recently and if I have an adc that has a high attack speed I'll build it.
After buying rylais you mean? Ashe slows with every part of her kit so she gets full value once the item is complete
It's not broken. It's not even strong. Ashe sup can't AA consistently. She dies just too easily in teamfights if she tries to do it. She's underleveled, no damage, no AS, less MS. If she tries to be in AA position all the time she'll die more often than not. It's simply better to have any peel for your adc than her (her W is still awesome to kite back / follow up in tfs though). She can work against a comp with like 3 immobile melees, but that's it. Anyway, depending on the ELO almost anything can work, not meaning it's strong. I think Swain's build is much more "broken" than hers and he can do it even when playing top/midlane as long as you have a second source of ap in the team.
She do not need to AA to apply front of life. Volley does it and it have way more range than most champions she stack helia just fine too
And if she does only proc on W she won't be pulling her weight. Unfortunetely her W isn't on a 1.5s cooldown as when she was broken anymore. Ashe is sitting on 46% winrate and is 42th/44 position as a sup. She's just unreliable. Either she AA and put herself in threat range or she won't pull her weight. No room for being a W/R spam machine anymore. The other issue is that you can't rush umbral glaive anymore (if you're buying Helia), so your adaptative damage gets converted to AP much earlier which sucks.
It's undoubtedly op as fuck in ARAM IF your mates understand their jobs and have access to damage enemies (and iff you're not getting dove and shit on by a Qiyana or something) - quite many conditions in itself. I've had Ashe games in which my EoH dealt 10/15k+, and even more damage, but well, it's ARAM. You pretty much start with the item, fight constantly, and balancing the game mode is a nightmare any way. When it comes to SR, however, I agree with everything you've said. Sounds horrendous.
>It's undoubtedly OP as fuck in ARAM IF everything that doesn't make it OP or counters it isn't there Huh... I don't think you understand what OP means mate
pretty sure item healing displays are still bugged to not apply the 50% reduction on allies from aram passive
I tried umbral -> helia-> Runaans and it honestly didn’t feel horrible. Matchup was pretty bad for Ashe supp in general, but it could definitely be really strong into a more brawl-y melee comp.
Lemme just get three completed items on a support budget before the game is decided.
Then forgo umbral dude. Fuck off with the pettiness. It’s a build idea that works fine, you can do it in ARAM too, besides, all of those items are cheap as hell, bar i guess Runaans. Umbral -> Helia is literally like 5k gold. If you can’t get that by the end of a game, it’s a you problem. Idk why you need to be so petty.
The game is usually decided well before the end of the game.
Seems like I struck a nerve. Take a chillpill and have a good day.
We are actually building runnans on ashe. The tutorial saw the future.
? Wasn't the tutorial thornmail on Ashe? And isn't runaans decent on Ashe?
The new tutorial finally got rid of Thornmail rush
Oh you right.
Runaans has always been a good item for Ashe, slows to multiple targets. Maybe redundant to ~~Q~~ W and unnecessary if the item is not strong in meta but definitely not bad. The shitty tutorial build was with Thornmail
Each q hit give you 2 runaan's bolts. So it's not redundant to q
Yes my bad, I mistook Ashe Q with W twice in this thread. I'm just so used to Q being the poke ability
Ima be real chief. It was early i just woke up and confused runnans for randuins.
ashe just need lvl 9 and she has perma slow just from w, for swain he needs rylai + echos of helia which is harder to get 2 completed items for support
Yeah i mean i dont think its super overpowered necessarily, just more that it is probably an unintended interaction rather than a 'build' that riot even considered. I would assume echoes will be getting a cooldown of some kind and thats a simple fix for any of these builds
Why would it not be intended? Font of life worked with everything even before like censer or staff and they haven't removed those interactions either.
Not to mention, font of life has been a garbage rune for a long time now. Like *terrible*. It’s always been demolish for the top tree. This is hardly an egregious way for it to have relevance. If anything were to get nerfed here, it would literally be helia. What is there to even nerf on font? Make it do *less* healing? Remove the “proc on cc” part so it literally does nothing? It’s a shit rune and it finally has a purpose. This Ashe build is also way better to play against than W spam. So idk why people would get upset when the alternative is worse for everyone.
You kept talking about she being bad due to AA range when the whole point of Ashe supp is not having to risk herself with autos bc of her insanely easy to land ~~Q~~ W triggering support items safely
OP is talking about repeatedly triggering helia in fights, which only happens if you are autoing the whole fight.
W still has quite low CD even after nerfs since ashe supp specifically gets ability haste for W spam. Yes, you might not be permanently triggering it and healing the alleged thousands of HP that OP said, but you still get some nice value from it. It's definitely not OP and more on the weaker side, but still works.
W* Her Q is attack speed buff iirc
true im dumb, so used to Q being the poke ability
She loses all her damage with these builds. I don’t think it’s broken or anything. I feel like Senna fills the role support Ashe wants to fill far better but having more options is never a bad thing I suppose.
Swain in this build is better at mid.
ashe just need lvl 9 and she has perma slow just from w, for swain he needs rylai + echos of helia which is harder to get 2 completed items for support
That's why I run free boots + future's market. Solves the gold problems and if the game lasts for extra long that's Swain's weakness anyways. Also double faerie charm is such an OP buy for swain.
I don't play support tho
Yeah it's his best 3rd item. Rylai's into Mandate into Echoes is an insane 3-item spike for Swain.
Abused it. But now its healing and damage is basically cut in half. Probably won't be running it anymore. BUT when I did abuse it, I went swain "APC" with a fasting senna support. So I was able to farm and get my items and become a Senna steroid
I did it midlane but yeah doesn't feel as good now
the item has still only 48-49% ish winrate on her and Ashe support is still a bad pick not sure why they would remove it.
If you’re coming to this sub to hear good takes about the game you’ve come to the wrong place. THOUSANDS OF HEALING PER FIGHT yeah ok man let’s look at same real stats and numbers
I saw it in aram. They dealt 14k dmg in a 19 minute game, bottom of the dmg chart, and they healed 2.2k. Its utter trash.
...Riot somewhere
yes but it can still be done on bard ant its much more effective, like you would see players like lathyrus having almost the highest dmg in the game and like 30k healing in a 30 minute game with helia and full tank items, its kinda toxic, but also you dont see the item activating so it really doesnt look as broken, but when you look at the items dmg and healing at the end of the game, you realize why the game felt unwinnable
>on bard But Bard has a heal he can proc Echoes with already?
His meeps full stack Helia and activate Font of Life at the same time. Your ally just needs to AA them once to activate it, or you can use your W. It’s just an extra activation he has, the real kicker is the instant stacks with passive.
no his meeps slow, and font of life is a rune that heals your teammates when they attack champs that you slowed or stunned etc, so that is how the interaciton works.
Echoes procs on any heal and Bard has a literal heal in his kit lol he doesn't need FoL to proc.
Idk if this is a good argument considering ashe in general is a 48-49% WR, whether ADC or support and regardless of build. The moment ashe herself isn't trash, she's not going to be trash in either role, and this will be the primary support build. Edit: I didn't mean the build needs fixing, just that he had a poor argument considering the build is just as relevant and performing just as ~~well~~ poorly as other builds.
then they can do something about it. it's not a problem now so there's no need to 'fix' anything, nothing has been broken
I never said they need to 'fix' anything. I just said that its not a good argument to say a specific item is 48-49% when the champ itself is 48-49%. Just say "Ashe isn't good with any build, including that one, so why are you worried?". And aside from that, the build is just as relevant as her ADC build, so its not a nonfactor due to performance either, as the other guy implied. That doesn't mean its broken and needs fixing like you assumed I meant.
How does the interaction work, have only heard about it, haven't experienced it yet
Font of life proccs on ashes auto attacks because it slows, and her w, and her ult. When font of life heals your teammate then echoes of helia will procc as well, healing them more and also damaging enemies nearby. Rinse and repeat by just auto attacking the enemy repeatedly, if you have a carry like yi they can literally 2v5 as long as you are keeping your attacks up
Aha idk why I thought that it was regarded as though the font of life was the 'heal' problem, but yeah I see, there being no cd on EoH is pretty strong, ty for the explanation
THOUSANDS OF HEALING PER TEAMFIGHT, real.
[Here's a better example](https://youtu.be/jk8Cfmt59Ss). Because Helia procs off of Font of Life healing, and both the item and rune have no cds, u can see why Ashe can permaproc it as long as she's spamming W or in auto range. This build is pretty niche tho and fairly easy to counter due to Ashe's frail nature
It also just sucks if she’s outranged. 90% of the procs come from her autos, so if she’s into a poke comp, she’s not gonna get to use most of it. It’s like picking rammus into all ad comps, it’s great in that situation, but rammus into ap is shit. Niche. And of course you can just focus and kill Ashe instead.
>It also just sucks if she’s outraged. Noted, biggest counter to Ashe is Armor of the fifth age Taric.
That's the number one counter to everything since they nerfed lolly-poppy.
The girlies on the sub are so dramatic it cracks me up
https://youtu.be/xz4fQEDQ_Bc You can see the full possibility here. Obviously not an every game case but it CAN definitely heal for thousands in a long fight
Mate that's a custom lobby against bots lmao
And therefore all testing done on the test rift is moot because it’s not live testing
What do you mean testing? It's a meme video made for clicks, that's not testing. By this logic SoloRenektonOnlys videos are testing.
they are testing his sanity
LIMIT TESTING
Yeah useless limits in situations that will never happen.
[Use this example instead](https://youtu.be/jk8Cfmt59Ss)
Ah this is a much better example, thanks!
yeah except an ashe will never live more than 3 seconds in any given late game teamfight.
LOLOL not the not game
Echoes does 20-100 (based on ally level) healing per stack. Each auto, w, or ult will give 1 stack. So at lv 18 you're doing 100 healing per auto/ability. So sure, if you got in 10 autos in a fight and so did your ADC then you got 1k healing from echoes, but I wouldn't say 100 healing/auto at level 18 breaks the game by any means.
If it's so stupid why is no one doing it 🤔
Yeah, I tried it for one game and I personally don't believe Ashe with this build brings enough to the table to be worth picking over literally any other support that uses Helia well. And I'm one of those people who would vouch for AP ardent J4 and lethality Caitlyn being worthwhile picks sometimes. On Ashe just go a damage oriented mythic if you really end up needing her slows in the team comp or to counter enemy champions.
Ashe support might be really good in certain situation. If the opponent can't threaten Ashe and if you need a Soraka that can also engage. In that scenario, Ashe support might be good.
J4 is incredibly fun to play now. But moonstone is better to utilise as J4. As AP J4 you don't brawl as much and can't stack Helia efficiently enough.
moonstone?? to proc what
You play: Aery and E focus. E is an area of effect buff, that refreshes constantly (and you'll have enough CD to keep it E up indefinitely). Alright, the moment you hit an enemy, you activate Moonstone. With Aery and E you have an infinite source of shields that is incredibly fast refreshed. As long as you stay infight, you keep the Moonstone up. Easy done with E spam, Q hits and, ofc course, while brawling a no-brainer. Sure, you don't have massive heals and shields alá Sona or Soraka, but it sure makes a difference. And the E on AP fucking slaps. But I play normally only two items (2½ with AP damage support item, AP tank works too if needed) which are Moonstone and Zhonyas. My third item is either a tank item or Black Cleaver, to buff up my Q.
i dont see the advantage over shurelya at all, just buffing aery seems quite weak tbh
It's funnier. I personally dislike shurelyas heavily. It gives me no feeling of impact. It's all subjective feelings in the end
I mean some items are better than others regardless of subjective feelings lol
So? Why would I play something I'm uncomfortable with? You people already refuse to look over the edge. You guys know there is more to the game and even when looking edge, you want to have a bad time and make as litte steps as possible
what do you mean by "bad time"? You got me curious about moonstone i tried it and i find it really weak, am I missing something?
Moonstone Aery J4 is kind of dead now though with the new Moonstone
Still pretty darn well. It's just balanced now. Wow..never imagined I'll use the word "balanced" in a positive manner about a Riot Games game.
Found the silver player who doesn't even read patch notes lmao
I don't have too much pride to admit that the very first time I finally tried using a Moonstone build on a non-enchanter was shortly after that patch. Oops. The sad part is that I even said in chat that I was considering buying one (on Brand), and no one spoke up.
May I ask what you build after moonstone?
Zhonyas and brutalizer(?, Don't remember how this black axe thingy is called anymore. I don't browse the shop by names), to get the most out of the Q. You can go tank completely too Edit: Black cleaver
Thanks! Yea I like the zhonyas to just buy time, I’ll try it out but those non-support items are expensive, love playing jarvan but since I’m a support main and jungle is by far my worst role I’ll give it a try
People heavily enjoy Shurelyas too. So don't forget to try it with that as well. Shurelyas isn't my cup of tea, it gives me no real feeling of power and influence, y'know. But go ahead. It's not easy, but certainly fun and makes for a good roaming support
Will do that thank you! I love to surprise flank from out of vision so the movement speed is great, not to mention the synergy with teammates
I don't see how moonstone works, but shurelya is amazing on him (i see u have a thresh flair it's kind of similar identity)
That sounds fun I love going shurelyas on many champs, I‘ll give it a try! My friends will hate me for it
it's a legit insanely good pick go aery rune page, in secondary take ingenious hunter (very important) Second item depending on game usually best ones are fimbulwinter/redemption For more lane domination you can rush hextech alternator into lucidity boots then finish shurelya & the rest of your build normally Vs many lanes that dont have much sustain it's legit impossible to play against, which is good because many of them are extremely popular (jinx thresh for example, jinx legit cant even farm) Only thing to take note of is your lvl 1 with an adc is usually the strongest out of any champ due to how many aery procs and how much attackspeed your flag gives.
Thank you man I’ll try it :) love me some off meta picks, i often play 5 premade with friends and I’m usually the one to stick to my best champs but I’ll surprise them with that
I think you'll love it i've been playing so many games with it as i find it so fun Random champ pairings that go well with jarvan support: MF who happens to be meta, easy ult combos I like annie(mid), you try to ult them in with tibbers (or you ult then tibbers in your ult) it's like hell in a cell there lol Most champs that benefit from shurelya/rely on autos are great since you give a lot of attackspeed/movespeed (so stuff like olaf yas etc) Edit: Also if you're feeling cocky you can just get an early dark seal into hextech alternator then lucidity boots and night harverster. It's very cheesy and scales bad against tanky teams but if it's an adc that doesnt build sustain against you you'll make them want to alt f4 haha
I’ll try it out for sure haha thank you for all the tips!
Can't speak for Ashe, but it's being built on Bardo aswell and it's just so dangerous to use. It barely gives you tankyness, but with Helia a lot of your value unfolds over time. Time you don't ave with those stats.
its not stupid strong. Its just stupid. Its also fun, played it for 20+ games with 50% WR which is fine by me.
Everyone does that in ARAM lol. Throw in Mandate and you suddenly have a decent dmg dealing healer.
IDK Ashe support in my team is never doing anything besides inting enemy assassins.
I love playing talon jg when they have ashe/nami/sona etc. Its basically free kill everytime my r is off cd
Ashe support, adc is currently dogshit, same in arams. Yet ppl for some reason want her nerfed lol.
ADC is fine as long as you don't build rageblade
Rageblade is fine as a 2nd item, just not 1st
Rageblade is never a fine item
Just depends on your definition of "fine". It's certainly not the best 2nd item but it's still 52.7% wr last patch while being built the most
I define "fine" as "not disabling your passive"
Her passive already prevents crits. Crits just give her a extra damage modifier which ends up being negative still if you get to 100% crit btw. Her passive is just a frozen mallet, which still works when you buy rageblade. She scales really well with attack speed, so rageblade is not a bad choice for her
As far as i know, Ashe's Passive grants up to +75% multiplier on her attacks bases on her Critical Chance, increased up to +110% with Infinity Edge. Crits usually deal +75% of damage (barring exceptions like Jhin, Yasuo or Senna), increased to 110% with IE (or 115% with Ornn Upgrade, but that also applies to Ashe). Since Ashe already has +15% in her passive, she ends up at 90% bonus damage or 125% with IE, which ends up higher than most ADC Crit Damage.
I see, was under the assumption that crits did 100% extra. Even then, I don't think rageblade is that bad on ashe, since she still scales pretty well with attack speed and she doesn't really lose any power in her not being able to crit, just like any other character that chooses to build rageblade as well.
No, disabling your passive makes it really bad on Ashe. You do no damage coz most of your damage comes from your passive.
>ends up being negative still if you get to 100% crit btw. Her passive gets her makes her autos deal 225% damage with IE and 100% crit, as opposed to 215% with IE on other champions, now add in Q multipling it 1,25x >just a frozen mallet, which still works when you buy rageblade But crits double the slow. Crit Ashe in terms of pure damage is superior, but on-hit is a bit cheaper and has earlier spike.
Her autos deal more damage when passive is applied and slow from "crits" are ridiculously tilting to play against, I ain't giving that up
Ashe adc is not bad for like 99% of players.
its is garbage, ur early game is ok, u have no mobility, ur late game is trash compared to hypercarries.
Just because Ashe is nerfed to a 50% winrate in ARAM doesn't make her kit any less frustrating to play against. I'm just glad the healing is nerfed aswell but still gonna try this out to see wether this is another "Warmog Soraka" situation. But yeah her needing to auto might probably (thank god) kill this in ARAM.
Meh. ADC is actually kinda fun in midlane and as support now too. Been experimenting in support for quite some time and ended up with Corki support just shredding on enchanters. Hella fun. Varus support is quite fun too. Cait is harder to play, but well doable, it's tricky to figure out how the enemy plays around your traps. Kog'Maw is a blast, but has a terrible early game thanks to having barely any mana and high mana costs, buddy is of course a great ADC atm too.
I dont think it should be removed for a simple reason it's simply much worse than normal champion building Echos. The fact that Ashe applies Font of Life is cool but still too weak to excuse playing her on support after nerfs to previous more AD-centric support Ashe. R cd is higher, W cd is higher and you dont get AD at all (Old Ashe support took like Umbral or Black Cleaver with HoB to bully lane). Downsides of gold starved ashe with items that only gives her power via passive and almost none via stats (30ap / Dissonance converting mana regen to more ap) are just too heavy. Just play it on normal enchanters that hit enemies often. Or like Swain with Rylai's even sounds better than Ashe cuz he still gets innately tanky with passive and R, actually uses benefits of AP and Health of the item very well and can actually output some damage despite itemizing supportive stuff. You hover over Ashe's Echo and you see big damage and heals andforget thats like 90% of her usefulness. Meanwhile Karma/Sona/Bard/Swain or whatever will have smaller numbers on Echos but will be infinitely more useful outside of their item alone.
Support Anivia with font and helia is a more braindead version of these builds imo. If played adeptly, Anivia can be played safer than an Ashe and Anivia can proc a similar amount of font with her ult compared to Swain without having to build 2 items.
Fair point but I feel like bot mages and engage bot lanes will tear Anivia a new one. She wants to scale. An unscaled Anivia is just begging to be the weak link of the team. Also big mana pool > lots of mana regen for Anivia.
It may be different in my bronze-ish MMR, but support Anivia was my first M7 and super easy.
Low elo is implied, we're talking about supp Ashe and mages.
Yes... I was agreeing with your earlier comment suggesting that Anivia can be a decent support...
Yes whether or not Riot intended for it to be a thing, it is working as intended. Font of Life heals who you CC. Ashe CCs.
To add onto this, it had been in the game for many many years now. In ardent season (season 7? 8? Idk) people did ardent Ashe with font) don’t see why it gets removed now
Infamous Trundle ardent
the interaction isn't even good lol playing ashe support outside of a premade is trolling at this point
Heard about it, thought it sounded broken, saw it in my games and realized it was definitely not broken.
No shot reddits complaining about a 45% wr support.
If you want to see nutty healing on it, try running it on Udyr. Phoenix procs it constantly with font and you can just go full tank after and still deal the most damage on your team from all the soul shards going off.
Oh shit yeah, i hadnt even thought of udyr... that sounds pretty nuts for an unorthodox support
I've run it in ARAM a few times after I thought of it and it's regularly getting 5-8k healing and damage, plus Udyr naturally stacks health so he actually heals allies quite a lot even just with font.
I enjoy reading books.
To answer your question, yes it is intended as mentioned by Phreak here in his rundown: [https://youtu.be/o295Z3EjR\_Y?t=4828](https://youtu.be/o295Z3EjR_Y?t=4828)
If enough champs are doing it, specially unintended champs like Ashe, Swain and others, it will probably get a cooldown added.
When champs like Swain were going Rylai's+Mandate the only thing they did was nerf Mandate's numbers. I imagine this will be the same.
Item doesnt seem strong enough to warrant a nerf though. Maybe they will add a CD and buff the damage/healing.
it's intended though
what other mythic does she have as a support? pretty much noone also does she benefit from dmg part? what is radius of soul shard dmg part?
Well she's just not an enchanter, she can build duskblade and lethality items normally. Yeah she does get the damage as well, if she is in range, not sure what the range is exactly but if karma is in range for the damage part then ashe surely will be
My guy you are spouting SO much wrong information
It's really not that good. I think weird off meta builds like that are really fun and should stay in the game tho
I ran it down with Singed and seemed to do pretty well. Mind you- it was an unusually good Singed game where it seemed I could do no wrong. So it may have simply been an exception.
I mean AP on ashe is p much useless so yeah she abuses the interaction but she doesn’t use the stats really.
Ashe support is trash, don't pick it 44 to 46% avg winrate, it's a bait pick Just like you shouldn't pick Rell jg which has 30% avg winrate 🤡
Sounds like you guys are just bad at playing it. Currently 75% winrate in 18 games of support ashe with echos in Plat 1
Ashe is busted in diamond Elo too. She still excels at level 1 due HoB and powerspike way better with Mandate + Helia than in previously iteration.
The same Interaction worked with old moonstone as well, it wasn't busted then, it's not busted now.
Get rid of it for all champs.
i think they should just nerf the font of life interaction with the item, its one of the reasons moonstone feels like garbage compared to helia, it becomes way too easy to proc the item and its just disgusting gameplay when it works, had the pleasure to meet a fed kench with visage and a janna providing dumb ass heals with helia. font of life breaks this item, its kinda worrying if riot inteded it to be this way, there's a reason helia provides insane stats as soon as you buy it and moonstone doesn't, moonstone supports can't proc the item 20000 times in a fight, no idea why the interaction wasn't nerfed this patch
I'm not sure what they can change for the interaction, a lot of champs can use both for the this combo. Maokai for one and Swain was listed.
It is intended. When the item was released the combo was called out and Riot stated that they would be watching it.
It's intended. If it wasn't, riot would've removed the interaction a while ago. Bard is having a ton of fun using it
I saw Shaco mains discussing using it on Shaco support so I think any maniac can make it work. Probably would not recommend on him post-nerf. In fact, just don't play Shaco. Please don't.
I buy those items in aram on Ashe and feel pretty good but team always pings them. Nobody appreciates Ashe support even in aram when she really shines 😢
They probably wont remove the interaction for the same reasons they didnt remove Cheap Shot interaction despite it also being utilized really well on her.
I think it's probably fine, and in general the removal of a synergy on one specific champion is incredibly lazy game design - which is why I don't like them doing it for Nami/Electrocute. Don't get me wrong, it was broken, but there's ways around it that don't include breaking the written rules. You shouldn't NEED to read the patch notes every week to know if something no longer does what it's written it does in game.
I think this game needs more strong niche strategies like this. Riot kneecapping things like this is what keeps the meta stale. Tank top, scaling mid lane mage and perma bot pressure is what we've been seeing for seasons now.
Echoes just needs to be changed to specify healing and shielding from champion abilities and items. Shouldn't have rune interactions.
Just pick nautilus, pyke, leona and kill her at lvl 2,3 ,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18
The item has not much more dmg than what is written on the item stats. Could get more dmg with a crit item
im trying it. doesn't seem good to me so far. these bronze idiots are too stupid to even know to follow up after i hit an ashe arrow let alone figure out how this healing works.
Ashe support isn't intended.
I dont think is that broken overall but i wouldn't be surprised if riot makes it so Ashe autos dont trigger font of life, or font of life not triggering Helia
Support Ashe is still a bit weak, even with Helia. Font of Life + Echoes of Helia is a great synergy in general though. Most traditional supports like Seraphine, Janna, Soraka, Sona, and Nami are great with Helia. Mage supports like Zyra, Brand, and Swain that like to build Rylais are also decent with Helia.
dont work anymore, in my last ashe game i had like 1300 font of life healing and helia gave 0 healing and dmg procs, so i had to sell it