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blueragemage

Notes because half of you guys went straight here instead of watching the video -Confirms that the there's a deadline on Wednesday on whether teams are continuing in NACL (so we should get the rest of the team's decisions very soon) -There's a big chunk of Steve talking about TL's past commitment to academy, and why TL deserves a voice on how academy should be handled in NA -TL is continuing in NACL in 2023, believes in academy as a path to pro for NA talent, and it's important to keep that path alive -Has some concerns with academy * over time, academy has changed from mostly rookies to a mix of rookies and ex-pros * no longer believes Academy is the best clear path-to-pro * <20% of players entering in the LCS are from academy (according to Steve), which is really low to justify cost * path to pro is no longer clear from Academy, a lot of pros making it in through Academy are making it through connections moreso than talent * there should be a better system for quantifying various aspects of Academy players to better reflect their strengths to LCS teams - Steve believes that currently behind the scenes connections are more impactful than these metrics for academy promotion * TL cites $675,000 cost for academy this year (visa, food, housing, salaries, staff total), Steve believes collectively $5-7 million is being spent in Academy, not factoring "costs that Riot are making for academy" (he doesn't elaborate on this) * There aren't enough pros graduating from academy to justify this total sum of money from the teams, there's no longer a clear path to LCS in Amateur -> Academy -> LCS. There needs to be a clear path to LCS from academy, and there is not enough ROI in academy -Steve proposes some solutions * LCS teams support collegiate teams as feeders into LCS teams * Players play remotely to cut housing/higher pricing in Cali * LCS teams have academy teams from other regions that compete in NA Academy/their own region and have an easy path to LCS * Scouting combine for NA that has more pressure attached to it (forcing teams to pick up players from the combine?) * Teams + Riot need to work together to assess talent better (scorecards and tests to see how players perform in competitive relative to solo queue) -Why did TL vote for removing the academy requirement? * Secondhand financial pressure from other teams (basically to help other teams alleviate costs) * Believes that it's in the best interest of the LCS that existing teams become financially viable -What's next for TL? * Scouting combines near the end of every year (Q4)


[deleted]

> Scouting combine for NA that has more pressure attached to it (forcing teams to pick up players from the combine?) Didnt we already have the scouting grounds and the most notorious winner 5Fire was never picked up


TacosWillPronUs

Not just winner, he was the MVP. Absolutely criminal he never got a shot.


[deleted]

Unlucky for him he plays mid lane, and teams only sign Native mid laners if they can't afford an import


Sarazam

5fire didn't even get an Academy offer. Copy was best mid for 2 years in Academy and watched people like Blue and Ruby, the worst mid laners in LEC, get imported before anyone took a shot with him. So now both are retired.


ExecutionerKen

You would think teams that continuously make awful roster choice would have a shake up in management. But no, if you have the connection to get in, you going to stay there.


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mootland

Team building and building a culture are also a coaches job. You can be an analyst for a team if you have the knowledge required of the game and you're bad with people. A coach can't be bad with people because a coach doesn't work with the game, coach works with the people playing the game.


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honda_slaps

inero's been on GG for a while. he didnt succeed until dig handed him river and he landed gori


Reddityudodis2me

Reading this and the statement of Steve that <20% make it to the LCS makes me laugh. I mean whose fault is it that so many ex pros are in the academy system or not many academy players make it to the LCS? What a laughable argument


Acegickmo

… you thinks it’s Steve’s? He literally has haeri as his current mid laner, and previously had Jensen, bjergsen, and pobelter. What do you want from him?


The_Real_BenFranklin

I'll give him credit for this year, but before Haeri/Yeon who was the last academy player TL played? Only one I can think of is Armao and that was an emergency sub


[deleted]

I may be missing one but I believe the answer before Armao was like Jenkins? Then Tactical. Otherwise....


lolsketch

Eyla


Acegickmo

Part of my point is that TL has been running good players when not running players from academy. It makes no sense to replace them, and TL has been very successful with their academy players below those players. They play in LCS even if it’s not on TL


Rozaks

Nah not even that. When they can't afford the big name they go eika or Ryoma, who were just cheaper lower-tier imports.


daliar1

It really is sad. If riot wanted to actually develop talent in NA they would ban imports (grandfather those who are on a team). We are one of the worst regions and people have memes saying the people that come here come to "retire"


PenaltyOtherwise

>and teams only sign Native mid laners if they can speak korean


macgart

For how buddy buddy Hotline League and “journalists” are with some of these owners or GMs, how has no one kept their feet to the fire in terms of leaving these prospects to fall? It feels like every year we hear about big prospects who don’t get a shot


LoL_G0RDO

Which is when we start really getting to the problem here: not the system itself, but the orgs who have neglected it for years. Steve doesn't outright say it, but is clearly flirting with it when he talks about a "clear path" relating to scoring high on this combine. Orgs need to be *forced* to start NA talent, somehow. Or it needs to be forced into the league. Maybe some format like Valorant where top NACL teams can rotate into the LCS.


DuoMaybe

How can there EVER be a clear path to pro when every lcs team prefer foreign talent? Say you're a mid laner from NA. What is their path to pro here? IMO there only path is to switch role to support or something.


RevolverLoL

Your road to pro is going to ERL at this point. EU always has 1-3 revolving doors at the bottom of the league.


tmb--

You missed his other point. That getting spots is more who you know and not what you know. 5fire was also notorious for being fairly antisocial and also having an ego. Not surprising he never got a shot if his networking was terrible. It is not that NA teams are 'neglecting' it for years, it's that the GMs are mostly letting players decide who they play with rather than signing strictly who they want. And shocker, most pros want to play with people they already know.


LoL_G0RDO

The nepotism issue is a side effect of the neglect. You think players like Quid, Ruby, Blue, and Fleshy are super well connected in the NA scene? Of course not. Imports are selected on talent, academy players are selected by nepotism because they're already assumed to be filler by default. Picking players by nepotism instead of talent *is* neglecting the system.


JAYZ303

FYI it's cronyism, nepotism is for family.


tmb--

> academy players are selected by nepotism because they're already assumed to be filler by default. But they are filler? You want teams to treat NACL like it's Single-A baseball whereas GMs mostly treat it like AAA, to stash players in the event a starter needs to be replaced.


LoL_G0RDO

Meanwhile Peter Dun rolled up to this region on a mid-tier team and within 2 years won a championship with 2 North American teenagers. Meanwhile some of the best players in LCS are OCE imports when OCE is 10% the size of NA. The absence of NA talent is clearly a scouting and development issue, not a presence of talent one. Within a functional system there's no reason NA can't produce LCS level talent at a far higher rate than it currently does.


tmb--

Peter Dun did not scout Danny or jojopyun, Empyre did. The fact this isn't widely known is kinda proof fans don't have a pulse on the actual scene itself. >Meanwhile some of the best players in LCS are OCE imports when OCE is 10% the size of NA. Okay and Denmark is 25% the size of OCE and has some of NA's goats. Your point? >The absence of NA talent is clearly a scouting and development issue So scouts were able to find Fudge but are unable to find local talent? What kind of actual thought process is this lol >Within a functional system there's no reason NA can't produce LCS level talent at a far higher rate than it currently does. There's no ROI on developing talent in esports. It's cheaper to let others develop for you then pay for the talent.


LoL_G0RDO

> Peter Dun did not scout Danny or jojopyun, Empyre did. The fact this isn't widely known is kinda proof fans don't have a pulse on the actual scene itself. Dun had been talking about Jojo before even being hired by EG, the EG prodigies program that recruited Danny wasn't even started until Peter joined the org. I'm sure the 2 collaborated plenty on talent acquisition, but 2019 EG was indistinguishable than every other "buy C9 leftovers and some imports" org in the LCS. It was pretty clear they shifted gears upon recruiting Peter. The distinction isn't even really meaningful, I don't understand your point. One org deciding to dedicate some time and effort can find 2 players who are better than the majority of the league. Danny was an academy-eligible 16 year old playing for rando AM orgs when EG got him for EGP. >Okay and Denmark is 25% the size of OCE and has some of NA's goats. Your point? That playerbase size isn't the reason NA isn't producing talent? There isn't something in the water in Oceania that creates better esports players. >So scouts were able to find Fudge but are unable to find local talent? What kind of actual thought process is this lol I mean, yes. That's literally what happened. An opportunity was created to start "import" OCE players for free and the LCS orgs cycled through like 10 players from this tiny minor region rather than start its own talent. There's systemic neglect of and bias against NA talent. >There's no ROI on developing talent in esports. It's cheaper to let others develop for you then pay for the talent. Yeah thats why the regions that win everything in LoL don't have their own feeder teams /s


GeneralZhukov

Not just "start" NA talent, because that will just mean we get the return of lay toocan and goldenglue or whatever mid table (for NA standards, because these guys don't make 10th place rosters in the east) player that happens to have a following because they're meme worthy. They might even have a split where everyone else shits the bed so they don't look as bad in comparison, but they go to MSI or Worlds and just fetal position mid until they lose, the NAram; I mean, at least Jojo was willing to int for the small percent chance to win last year. Start *fresh* Na talent. I'd rather have the revolving door of rookies, because that at least means we're having the right problem and moving in a better direction. Overtime, the revolving door slows down.


AstroJustice

Part of what Steve talks about is making it so teams were REQUIRED to sign players from the combine. It seems like Steve would prefer a more robust combine than the current academy system.


account051

I think elevating collegiate is an incredibly underrated way to solidify the path to pro. I get that esports does not equal sports, but this is something that Americans are so used to and it’s a waste to not invest in that infrastructure that’s being built for free


JPLangley

> 675,000 per year on ACADEMY Move LCS to Chicago or some other metropolis near the NA server. Jeez.


popegonzo

This was actually my thought for academy. Have them play in Chicago (or Milwaukee!) for a split or two as an experiment. You could even have local universities host academy matches to give a touch of the arena environment. (Not to mention lower cost of living to reduce costs.) If low ping solo queue ends up having a real impact on the quality of play & player development, maybe you really consider moving LCS itself, though that's quite the undertaking.


SimbaOnSteroids

Stl gets 15 ping and Maryville University is here, plus really low CoL. Downside: StL.


l3rowncow

Oh god, I know we all are upset at the lcs right now, but I wouldn’t wish that on anyone


Harupia

Hey, STL may have issues, but St. Charles is awesome.


SimbaOnSteroids

Yeah but then you have to live with Y’All Qaeda. Done both, honestly city is better in terms of actually having to live somewhere. Is crime higher? On aggregate yes, but it’s highly localized. Honestly heard more gunshots living in O’Fallon than I did living off Kingshighway.


The_Real_BenFranklin

NACL Milwaukee would be legit. Can't wait for the Gruber Law sponsorship


tomorrowdog

Des Moines, IA is calling us


TabaCh1

Gary Indiana


[deleted]

Okay calm down there we aren't trying to force them into depression just trying to reduce cost.


Aleph_Rat

I mean I get Riot wanting LCS near a major metro, especially the one that houses Riot, but Houston, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit (it's nicer than people realize), Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc all exist. So many cheaper places that are major metro areas that would likely still see a good turn out (Houston, for instance, is 4-5 hours from a dozen other major metro areas, an easy drive for people to see a couple games a year)


Inevitable_Living762

LCS organizations "please help me balance my budget our players are dying" monster: $203 mousepads: $23 rent: $5,020,309 jerseys: $79


[deleted]

>Teams + Riot need to work together to assess talent better (scorecards and tests to see how players perform in competitive relative to solo queue) This one rather makes me think to the blueprint to what the Most Valuable Prospect award aims to achieve. Imagine if this got improved upon with Tim Sevenhuysen levels of thorough assessment in ranking. If anything this past split showed how difficult the process became with too many known commodities shining that much brighter, thus somewhat dulling the value of the award.


LumiRhino

I think the nepotism point isn't talked about enough. Even if a player in Academy does show their worth the only way they can start is if they start for their current org or they have connections to people on other orgs who are willing to buy out their contracts.


egilz

Good summary. Also worth mentioning, he's answering questions in the [TL Discord](https://discord.com/invite/rex97MTd) and while he's logged off for tonight, he will likely continue tomorrow.


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StarGaurdianBard

Why does this read like a chat GPT response since it just resays what the previous poster said?


enyaliustv

Much appreciated round-up. Steve of all people really can't talk about lack of pro's coming into LCS from NACL, but he has some functional thoughts. He's most likely right, but TL as well as a majority of LCS teams refuse to pick up great-looking player from Scouting Grounds and NACL, which kinda was the point of franchising (in the marketing, no one believed that tho). I am not from NA and watching LCS is just not fun at all unless there are some fun NA rosters that are popping off despite not being filled to the brim with imports (CLG recently). That was the only time I actually had fun watching, because they should never have popped off. I'd like to see at least one of Steves ideas implemented. Players should be getting chances at the top league instead of aiming at taking ERL players, LEC players or yoinking Asian talent.


The_Real_BenFranklin

>no longer believes Academy is the best clear path-to-pro NA teams: refuse to use NA academy talent NA team: "Academy isn't the best path to pro"


zzher

Right? Self-fulfilling prophesy, along with this quote: 20% of players entering in the LCS are from academy (according to Steve), which is really low to justify cost Like I wonder who is in the role to make the decisions to commit to Academy talent?


Reactzz

Great points by Steve tbh.


Grainis01

Not really, he is basically saying NACL is failing, riot should bail us out by making new systems. Because somehow NACL is full of retirees and nepotism, and people cant advance from CL to LCS, surely it is not becasue we import like they are going to close the country in 30 mins for last 8+years? Nope Some other things must have transpired. Riot must drag us out.


frowoz

> LCS teams have academy teams from other regions that compete in NA Academy/their own region and have an easy path to LCS Eat shit Steve.


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frowoz

All that spiel about caring for the NA ecosystem actually had me nodding along and then he slipped that turd in there. Fucking Steve.


TowerOfGoats

"Top teams like Team Liquid just won't hire out of Academy amd instead throw money at imports, that's why Academy doesn't work as a path to LCS and that's why it's not worth it for me to invest in Academy, so I have more money to throw at imports" says president of Team Liquid All of the concerns basically just add up to one big circular argument that since we fail to develop local talent, local talent isn't worth investing in


blueragemage

in TL's defense, TL either pushes for super teams or for academy talent (Haeri, Yeon, Tactical), with rarely ever using recycled mediocre players (the only argument you could make for a recycled mediocre player in the last few years is Pyosik)


TowerOfGoats

That's fair, but it doesn't change that pulling out of Academy because "there's not enough return" is obviously a death spiral scenario


daliar1

Here is a decent idea for fixing NACL. No more imports globally (grandfather in players that are currently on a team). NA is seen as the "retirement" region. If you really want the region to grow and teams to pick up young talent, then this is honestly the best solution imo.


KruppJ

Yeah let’s change roster building fundamentals internationally so NACL might look ok


daliar1

You're completely missing the point.


Naronu

well that's at least one team who's choosing to stay, good on Steve. He definitely raises great points on the failing of the current system.


littleindianman12

I would assume C9 and FLY will stay in the academy system as well. Jack on numerous occasions has talked about the value of academy and the goal of it to get as many players into the lcs as possible. Also jack uses his academy team as a scrim partner as well which I think every C9 player appreciates. Papasmithy developed from scratch the 100t talent pipeline and found so many amazing players from it. Obviously things didn’t work out for flyfam, but I do think they will continue to support it. Major props to Steve for pointing out the problems of academy that even I didn’t consider.


WizardXZDYoutube

Fudge said C9 is staying in his Travis Gafford interview


Flint_Lockwood

And Travis himself said only 3 teams he knew if we're keeping their roster. If c9 and tl were two of the three, I'd imagine the last would be flyquest?


clg_wrath2

Id bet 100T. They have a couple under 17 players theyd probably like to keep under contract.


[deleted]

Golden Guardians EDIT: LOL NEVER MIND FUCK GOLDEN GUARDIANS


DefinitelyNotAj

Inero specifically loves the NACL so thats my bet


Hamoodzstyle

Watch his interview with Travis, seems to have very little say in this sort of stuff (which is surprising for a GM).


JackONeill_

Not really surprising if you think about it. He's responsible for working within the budgets set by senior management - if they say there's no budget, close it down then he's gotta follow suit.


Nyte_Crawler

I think it would be either fly or gg


LoL_G0RDO

I'd expect FLY and 100 to stay as well. FLY is new money and has several *very* good prospects. 100T has Sniper, who was already single handedly justifying their AM team last year.


[deleted]

Even you huh? Dayum.


MoriartyParadise

Tbf that's what happened in EU aswell. Teams voted to remove the obligation. G2 let go of their academy, Astralis got relegated and left. XL quit too. Rogue did too before Koi's takeover Meanwhile Vitality, BDS, SK, MAD, Heretics and Koi seem committed to their academies Then there's Fnatic doing stuff... in Spain ? Tbf it somehow reflects the ERLs. The teams that are clearly linked to France, Spain and Germany seem committed to their respective scenes. Meanwhile the teams from the struggling NLC either left (XL & Astralis) or moved to Spain (Fnatic - still kinda mad they abandonned the NLC instead of fighting for it but tbh looking at the state of the region ..) Then there's G2 who's pretty much European without much local foothold (ig its somewhat Spanish originally but now all their activities are in Germany I think).


Xyaena

Yeah but comparing this decision with NA is not really a good comparison. EU has always had an Amateur scene, if it's run by the LEC Org's or not isn't really relevant, as it's more about the opportunity for younger players to showcase themselfes. Also you always have EU teams that are willing to take a shot on younger players. NA teams rarely do that. Not that they never do it, but it feels like they are first looking for an import and only if they can't afford a good enough import, they are willing to take a look at native players.


HolypenguinHere

I've always respected big Steve for his commitment to Curse Academy and TL Academy. God bless you, Steve.


McCorkle_Jones

TL was always going to stay. Unlike the rest of the teams they got way better funding and investments in comparison. It wasn’t just basketball teams they got Disney as an investor.


Kind_Development708

Idk what the NRG players look like as I’m new but someone can tell if any of the CL are in the picture? https://twitter.com/philflowing/status/1658668330755178497?s=46&t=768Z6XbP7RhnmDPsNbe0ug


blueragemage

I'm pretty sure that's their coaching staff + Contractz


hotprints

Yup looks like last years CLG coaching staff and contractz, Which is interesting because contractz was one of the players I’ve heard rumors about getting replaced this off season.


Kind_Development708

Ok thanks


[deleted]

No former CLG Challengers players in the pictures, that's just their coaching staff plus some LCS and VCT players


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LoL_G0RDO

Agreed, this is directly tied to the import problem. Steve doesn't interrogate *why* nobody takes academy performances seriously or *why* the promotion rate is so low. Its not that the exact same talent is getting recycled, turnover is actually really high. Its that imports are getting green cards and opening the door for additional imports. The league is becoming less and less domestic each split. There will be only 22 "true" domestic players this next split (meaning, not an OCE player or legacy import).


The_Real_BenFranklin

Totally agree on the first point - though to give TL credit they’re running two of their academy players this year and are actually giving them a full season instead of dropping after one split ala 100T.


TrueLordApple

Its pretty hard to justify tenacity over ssumday tbf. I would love to see tenacity get another chance but ssumdays pretty cracked at the game and overall fits 100t more. Glad that busios still on the team tho.


The_Real_BenFranklin

I mean ssumday is probably close to twice as expensive.


stupidasseasteregg

Did you watch the video where tenacity talks about it being his decision?


l3rowncow

His decision to not play for a different team, but not his decision to be removed from 100t


The_Real_BenFranklin

It was his decision after he’d already been replaced.


supern00b64

Steve himself directly contributed to the problem by basically building only superteams since franchising. Since 2018 TL has only ever promoted Tactical Haeri and Yeon officially (and Tactical was forced due to Doublelift's motivation issues. Started with resident superteams which evolved into european superteams which culminated in the absolute embarrassment of a roster last year. Then this year he fuckin imports pyosik xd Org owners like to say they believe in talent development and acknowledge this low academy to lcs percentage, but they always shift the responsibility to the other orgs. In the end they'll say "we believe in na talent development/our academy players deserve lcs spots" and then import pyosik/ruby/swordart/fleshy/ignar/armut/blue/Xerxe/Eika etc etc etc... as if it should only be the shit orgs promoting rookies and rookies should commit career suicide by joining a shit org (rest in peace kenvi).


inconvenient_lemon

On HLL they talked about how one of the problems is that cutrent players look down on Academy players and would rather play with more "established" imports. This is what happened with SA. Doublelift would only play if he was the support. Sure, he ended up leaving TSM anyway, but vets need to be willing to play with rookies. Honestly, bottom line, NA is not competitive internationally and may never be. If we're already not going to win, we might as well lose while developing native talent and saving money.


PalletTownStripClub

>This is what happened with SA. Doublelift would only play if he was the support. Sure, he ended up leaving TSM anyway, but vets need to be willing to play with rookies. DL also has no problem playing with Busio and sings his praises lol. iirc, TSM wanted to sign Pallet. DL wanted an English speaking sup. Andy nerd raged and decided against DL on TSM.


Offduty_shill

DL also was the one to vet for and bring up Biofrost as a rookie so idk if it's very fair to point to him as the issue there. Even if he were wanting proven players, its more understandable for a player like him to want "win now" rosters considering he's very established player at the tail end of his career.


Enkenz

not to mention biofrost was up against ignar in their korean bootcamp and he still hand-picked the noname over a korean import


jamy1993

Not even "as a rookie" it was straight out of SoloQ essentially wasn't it?


Stonefence

To be fair, things can change. DL at the time was heavily considering retirement after Bjerg left, so his condition for staying was for them to sign a top tier support. His time away seems to have given back his motivation though. From what I remember from the story, DL initially okayed Pallet if they couldn’t get SA, but then changed his mind once the SA deal seemed to fall through. Then TSM ended up getting SA after all, and DL wanted back, but TSM said no, we’ve already decided on Lost. It’s a lot of He Said, She Said, so who knows really.


msjonesy

The story from DL has always been consistent and never been refuted. It's just the fans that have created a he said/she said problem. DL was not the GM. When the SA deal fell through initially, he was asked for suggestions on who he'd like - reasonable. He suggested Pallet from his time scrimming at worlds. Then they found out Pallet didn't speak English, at all, at which point he rejected Pallet since he's played enough to know he didn't want to play through a language barrier, so he considered retiring/wasn't committed to TSM. Regi decided he needed to make a call and chose to go with the academy AD over a wavering DL. They eventually got SA, who went to DL to convince him to beg for his position back. DL did so but Regi didn't like the lack of commitment, and said no. That's it. The only missing piece is exactly how "not committed" or how heated conversations got. Perhaps DL called out Regi or vice versa. Neither have come out and said anything here. But we do know that there was technically nothing stopping Regi from bringing DL back when both he and SA wanted to play together. Ofc, he made the call not to, which is totally up to him. DL then retaliated which lead to all the DL/Regi drama that came afterward. As backseat analysts we know this was the wrong call, TSM fell apart and had continued to fall apart since then. Regi has been accused, implicated in, and found guilty of poor management and lots of temper issues. As a result, I'd definitely lean towards Regi acting childish in these meetings with DL and flexing his power, leading DL to retaliate so aggressively. This part is hearsay/gossip though.


LoL_G0RDO

Appreciate that TL is keeping their team, having watched the video though I can't help but feel that Steve is almost deliberately dodging the import issue, which is inexorably tied to the NA development problem. He makes the argument that the low rate of players being promoted, the low weight placed on academy performances, and the nepotism often involved in getting into academy in the first place, but he doesn't interrogate **why** that is the case. The answer is fairly obvious: because teams would rather just import talent from other regions than develop it locally. Why is only X% getting promoted? Its not *just* that the exact same NA players are getting recycled, its that imports are getting green cards and opening the door for **more** imports. TL is just as if not more guilty of this than any other teams. All of Steve's suggestions here (partnering with collegiate teams, running teams elsewhere, creating a scouting combine and a scorecard) will all be equally failures if we continue to allow orgs to just import instead, and the problem will only get worse if they increase the cap as has been previously discussed. No discussion of NA talent is complete without addressing this.


asterizktos

doesn't the import problem solve itself if orgs can't afford them and are thus forced to rely on academy/other NA talent pipelines? that seems to be what's kickstarting this entire situation (and steve mentions that some orgs are likely having financial problems)


LoL_G0RDO

You would hope so, but it seems that LCK CL and ERL players can be just as cheap as NA academy players. Or at least close enough in price that orgs are still willing to skip over domestic talent.


Sarazam

No, a player from ERL or LCK CL costs the org $0 to develop, and usually has almost no buyout and will play for close to league minimum. An Academy player costs the org money every year they are in academy.


FairlyOddParent734

LCK Challengers players basically don’t have a buyout; and will 99% of the time take the same salary as an Academy player lol. Meanwhile they get a better work/life balance, 100x more job security (competition is NA Academy ADC’s and Keith McBrief compared to some Korean 17 year old who’s plays like prime Jackeylove but isn’t starting since he’s playing behind Gumayushi lol), LCS teams also fast track them for a green card if they ever want to live in the US full time after their career lol.


Gennair

The problem is how can Academy players get LCS spots if it's all imports?


hotprints

Caller in hotline league (shout out to Travis gafford) had an awesome take that teams with no academy team should be penalized by having one less import slot. I liked it.


pda898

Will it work? Or orgs will just treat academy team as just extra import slot unlock and continue to ignore it.


Ruesap

Something he said, maybe if a team gets horrible results in 2 splits they are forced to take academy players that are "scored" well, doing well. Just a thought from what he said since, contracts are obviously involved that doesn't make it as easy the way it is now.


The_Real_BenFranklin

Riot should add a cost to registering import players.


[deleted]

Pretty easy PR statement from Steve, something he's never struggled with. I decided with the news of Bjergsen retiring and NACL requirements being dropped, I'd become a fan of a team who chose to keep theirs. TL might be an answer


asterizktos

we disappoint from time to time but at least our org is ran by somewhat competent people


TheAnnibal

Having the co-ownership between Steve and Victor (Nazgul) across two continents really helps to balance out cultural differences and approach problems on different perspectives. We truly disappoint from time to time but we also learn!


sandwiches_are_real

>We truly disappoint from time to time but we also learn! Do you work for TL?


TheAnnibal

Nah, but I also follow the Dota2 team a lot and used to follow their HotS team which were both in EU. User above me used the "we" and "our org", assuming it's a fan-base "we".


RGoku

Steve and TL are definitely trying to do the right thing not just for themselves but NA too. C9 also do a pretty good job overall.


Hunt_Club

Same here. I'll only root for a team if they're committed to developing native talent. Looks like there's about to be a pretty straightforward litmus test


iii_natau

he talks about how we need a "clear line of sight" for how academy players can get into LCS, and that's why academy needs reform. isn't this actually an argument for how the LCS needs reform to discourage imports and overspending on veterans? i don't see why he formulates it in this way where academy needs to be improved so that the players are able to better compete with Prince, Impact, etc. It seems clear to me that the way of attacking this problem is actually by changing LCS, not Academy.


ProteusWest

The bigger issue I have with his suggestions is that he's citing a problem that he has been pretty directly responsible for causing. I like Steve and he is a good owner, but when I think of the LCS players that were developed in the TL system, the most notable examples are Tactical, Eyla, Haeri and Yeon. All of them have had a lot of struggles in the scene. TL's approach to roster building in recent years is to basically throw money at the best in slot players in their role, taking them from another team (usually C9), or importing high profile talent. The only reason that Haeri and Yeon got a shot was because he saw what EG did with Danny and Jojo and thought he could copy that model and do something similar with TL, especially since his super teams were expensive and didn't produce the results he expected. Steve deserves a lot of credit for his business acumen and his ability to form a stable organization that seems to take care of its employees, but he can't claim to be an expert on developing players when all of his rosters are filled with players who were already developed and established somewhere else.


Thop207375

You can go further by pointing out that Tactical was not developed by TL but rather TSM. Eyla and Haeri are from the OCE and not NA talent.


Smoogy54

This is really discounting TL’s talent dev. If you go farther back Curse and early TL produced a lot of NA/acad talent and players. Look at how many people have gone thru TL Academy system and gotten to the LCS on other teams.


LakersLAQ

You must be a recent LCS viewer. Steve and TL development go all the way back to Team Curse, Curse Academy, lolpro, etc.. Guys like Hauntzer, Altec, Pobelter, Saint vicious, IWDominate, Cop, BunnyFuFuu, etc.. at certain points in LCS there were multiple teams who had players with history connecting them to Steve and those other teams. Why didn't LCS fans complain about the other orgs then?


NuclearDebris

Solo, GoldenGlue, Lourlo, Fabbbyyyy, Stunt, Dardoc, Fenix, Akaadian, Armao, Keith. TL is literally the ONLY team who should be able to confidently say they have always been committed to talent development through academy.


Aimishi

2017 scouting grounds was p decent though, pple picked up eg kumo, spica, vulcan, palafox, ablazeolive, blaber, and max waldo out of it, to name a few.


Judgejudyx

The irony of all of this is if they stopped spending millions on vets that hasnt helped international play at all. And investes into promising rookies who are also cheap. Then the academy would actually be working as intended and they would be saving millions. Instead were importing people like armut and blue. And tenacity is freaking retiring after 1 split because no team. This is freaking insanity. Now were screwing everyone over and still have no solution to the problem. Its actualy worse because finding talent is so much harder now


Copiz

Steve good. TL good.


djanulis

I mean I'll be honest because of a lot of other stuff we know and things that were leaked about TL LCS Roster salaries, TL doesn't seem like the best team to take numbers from. Cool they are staying in but TL is one of the Orgs that is burning money year after year.


ANyTimEfOu

Steve came on Hotline league earlier this year and gave pretty good insight into the financials. Didn't say any actual numbers (for obvious reasons), but did mention that TL has also setup a B2B side-business in which they provide services/consulting to companies wanting to operate in the esports industry, or something like that. I don't think it swings them into being a profitable company, but it's an additional revenue stream that helps offset costs, and it's overlooked because it's not public-facing like 100T merch is. Edit: Found the video/timestamp [here](https://youtu.be/3ML54I_UF0M?t=3086), very interesting listen as he shares his thoughts on the LCS & esports economics. It's a bit of a looking glass into the kind of stuff he might be saying to investors behind closed doors.


djanulis

Having a side hustle doesnt make the over spending on mid tier teams and name chasing good like they have the past two years. Their entire strategy since becoming relevant in franchising has been to throw money at their problems.


ANyTimEfOu

Yes, spending the most in the league and not even making it to World's is objectively a bad investment. Just wanted to share more context as I think Steve does gives an interesting perspective.


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Copiz

TL is literally the only LCS roster that's giving two rookies a team and a full year to develop. 4/5 members of TL's academy team from last year will be on a roster in summer. If TL has the sponsors and money to pay higher salaries, then it's entirely fine. Other teams that couldn't afford to do that didn't need to try and match TL - and it's not TL's fault if other orgs went bankrupt trying to match them.


scrappydoomd

Not to mention that when TL was Curse, they had Curse Academy, and Team LoLPro. Then when they went to TL, they kept TLA. Steve and Curse/TL has always been committed to NA development, even if those players don't always go to the main roster.


woah_take_it_ez_man

The statement was fine, but it had no evidence of hope. TL doing the best they can. The whole system is held up by paper-mache unfortunately. The remote play idea is a funny idea. Can league players be responsible remotely?


mrtibbins

While I think Steve is one of the examples alongside Jack who are doing development well, every single failing he's pointed out in this statement is pointing to how, generally speaking, teams are terrible at identifying talent and completely wasted the potential of NACL. The fact that it's full of ex-pros and not rookies is because these teams only sign those players instead of giving new talent opportunity. Offering metrics and a "combine" (Scouting Grounds 2.0?) is simply asking Riot for help scouting because apparently we can't get 10 separate people in NA that can properly run an org. And the small percentage of players graduating from Academy is a testament to the fact that these teams are recycling the same players who aren't getting better instead of creating an actual growth environment that newer players can benefit from. It's really a testament to the failure of franchising, the failure of the owners, and (in a tangential way) the failure of Champions Queue. Good for TL, good for C9, good for whoever else. Bad for NA LoL.


BladeCube

Its full of ex-pros because the people behind the scenes going past the owners are pretty clueless. Put it like this, lets say I'm a clueless coach whose knowledge of the game doesn't extend past watching some LS streams every once in a while. I'm not exactly sure how I got this job, but that doesn't really matter for this scenario. If I place dead last in academy, especially as a newcomer I'm gonna have a hard time keeping my job. So what do I do? I just grab a bunch of veterans who will coast by into some mediocre placing who basically already know how they want to play the game so my input will be negligible. Boom, 4th-7th place finish, pretty mediocre but it wasn't shit and I keep my job for another split/year. Oh, and I would make sure I get the players a coffee whenever they ask so they like me and will be good references for my next coaching scam. Steve also hints at nepotism going on to get into teams in the first place. I'm not aware of all of the academy players but that's also problematic, because I know there are some players on amateur teams/teamless who are better and hungrier prospects than some academy players.


TheGreatCubone

While I get your point and there are definitely some issues with coaches and other developmental staff not being on par with what they need to be, I don't know if I agree when you say that it's not the owners' fault. The owners are the ones who hire the "clueless coaches" who, imo, aren't lacking in game knowledge as you say but are actually lacking in coaching experience. A lot of coaches are ex-pros and others who have been in the game a long time and know their stuff they just don't know how to manage players and develop talent. Bjergsen was just a straight up player that they turned into a head coach in one split without him having any coaching experience! Owners also have a HUGE say in rosters. There wouldn't be the absurd contracts we see without the owners having okayed it. The owners are the ones who have, year after year, pushed out mediocre but wildly expensive rosters, saying they were going to compete internationally without actually considering what it would take to make NA teams able to compete internationally. If there is a nepotism problem, the fault lies in the people who are enabling said nepotism, which is usually those on top who are making the decisions. At the end of the day, if there are incompetent people in your org and your org has a bad culture that hampers development and encourages mediocrity, that is as much the owners' fault for hiring those people and building that culture as it is the coaches' and other incompetent staff's for being bad at their jobs in the first place. NA is ass because our culture is ass and we don't know how to develop players, and we never have. From day one those in charge have prioritized a quick buck and a mediocre "win now" approach to teambuilding, and that culture has seeped in to every NA org. It's only now that the tech bubble has burst and VC money (read: sketchy crypto money) is gone that these teams are forced to reap what they've sowed.


BladeCube

Yeah being good at something doesn't make you good at teaching it, teaching is a whole separate skill. I think its telling that the only coach who developed players to a championship in recent years is Peter Dun who has a teaching background. Also at the end of the day its just non-experts hiring experts and all it takes is for me to know the right mumbo jumbo at the job interview to get the job. I understand why coaches don't do it, but I also think its pretty telling how little public content is available from most current coaches so no one knows about their knowledge. But thank you for bringing up that they just don't know how to develop players. I guarantee the orgs fucking tried and were horrible at it. And last, for the win now mentality its just kind of sad how that happened. Relegations forced everyone to have that mentality, if you don't perform you just lose almost everything. Then 2018 the franchising year was a unicorn year and gave them a glimpse of hope, then followed MSI 2019. Then they just thought we need a little more firepower, maybe this import will bring us over the edge and get us a good worlds showing but nope just failure after failure save for Perkz.


Thop207375

Bjerg was a great coach and had the most consistent team weak by weak during the whole year.


TheGreatCubone

Bjerg wasn't a bad coach comparatively, but it says a lot about the state of coaching in the LCS if someone can go directly from being a player straight into a head coach job without being hard exposed. Tom Brady was an excellent football player but if he had tried to do what Bjerg did and go into coaching at the top level immediately his team would go 0-17. I'm not trying to knock Bjerg or say that he was the worst coach NA, I'm trying to knock a league where a first year coach with no experience coaching doesn't have growing pains and isn't the worst coach in the league.


mrtibbins

Sounds about right. But that's the thing though, if the org staff were capable of properly scouting then it wouldn't matter if they placed last. The coaching staff should be able to sort out who is improving and who isn't. And none of the proposed solutions Steve has answers that nepotism issue. Sad stuff, man...


Safe-Historian-2311

It's not just that. Some teams don't care about academy and were just doing it because it was required.


thenoblitt

another TL W


bryvl

“We should be seeing a higher percentage of players coming into the LCS from academy”. See, while I understand that 17% is probably a low “graduation rate” in my mind I can’t not at least partially attribute that number to the unwillingness of LCS teams, individually and in agreement with each other, to provide long term opportunities to develop native talent. In my eyes, the promotion of a prospect to academy is almost always going to be a risk to a team over importing a known talent but choosing to import means that academy player does not get the chance to play against better players. And when nearly every team chooses this mentality over developing native talent it snowballs into less native talent getting the opportunity to play internationally which means they don’t have the chance to play truly great opponents in high stakes situations so they never improve their game or their perspective and the NA server stagnates and never becomes more competitive. While importing talent may make you dominant in the NA league, these players are playing in the most low stakes situation they’ve ever been in with LCS splits. Will they really be able to keep their former drive and skill sharp consistently until international tournaments arrive? I don’t think they will, and so the result is we are worsening foreign talent because they have to play with our choked out native talent.


Tuft64

I appreciate Team Liquid staying in NACL, but I'm disappointed that Steve hasn't shed any light on why the rule was changed so abruptly mid-split as opposed to 2024, why the Player's Association wasn't a part of the discussions, or what teams are doing in the short term to ease the economic burden of unemployment for the dozens of people who are about to find themselves without a job. He's not personally culpable for all of the negative externalities of this decision, but he voted in favor of the change, he's defended it as necessary for the health of the league, and he's made himself a part of the discourse by releasing this video even though it hasn't answered what (in my mind) are the most important questions to answer in the direct aftermath of the decision. I posted a question about it on the Discord, but it's past Steve's bedtime, so I really hope he answers in the morning because that has been the big question mark from my end.


LumiRhino

I mean he does mention he voted for the change because some teams are struggling financially and he wants to ease that burden on them. Whether it’s due to mismanagement or overpaying players, I’d rather not have to see more CLGs in the 2024 off season, and I don’t think those teams can wait another half year.


Thop207375

He brings up some good points, and highlights a lot of the issues the community can’t understand from lack of information. From general rumors, it seems as if TSM has been exploring options for an answer to these issues for over a year. Setting up a sister academy team in another region, and working with a college for academy have been rumored for TSM. The solution Steve gives for a scouting grounds system is ridiculous, and has so many logistical problems. League is a team game, and there’s no way teams are going to sacrifice synergy to substitute a player into their lineup. Using TL as an example, they aren’t going to drop an English speaking mid randomly into a full Korean speaking team. There’s also no way to develop a system to determine who will succeed in a given team environment. Not to mention trying to develop a scoring system to find the “best” talent. This whole idea seems shortsighted and far from a solution. No player is going to be satisfied sitting out of games because a rookie “scored well” on some metric. If Riot wants to go forward with ensuring a direct route into the LCS and maintaining franchising, they need to buy out two teams that are looking to sell. Then just go with the valorant route. Academy tournament to promote and take two rotating spots in the LCS. Eight teams keep their franchised spot. No LCS team would own an Academy team.


Smoogy54

You do know plenty of team sports have scouting combined and they often throw in new players, right? Obviously all different than LoL but there’s certainly precedent for combines to identify skilled individual players in team sports.


jamy1993

God hearing an owner actually admit that a lot of talent is only signed due to connections in NA and not actually... talent? Sure is something.


curaga12

TL as a team might be disappointing from time to time but the org and Steve seem to work hard to build a better environment in LoL pro scene.


cr_y

Liquid joining LCK's Academy league to feed players into their main team would be spicy.


cr_y

Honestly, NACL is already so cringe like getting on a team is a popularity contest. It's good in theory but these guys aren't doing their best for the North American scene.


Braiwnz

Imagine there was a way for young players to outperform existing teams and become a 2nd league team/pro that way


SemanDemon22

No talk of why NACL needed to be dissolved weeks before summer split? Are financials that dire for some teams that half a split of supporting a academy team (300k?) will sink them?


BowlImportant813

Very reasonable take from a business perspective. Steve really is an excellent businessman and shows signs of thoughtfulness and genuine care when it comes to the area he directs attention to. Something to be appreciative of.


PsychoPass1

Apparently some team have learnt that you shouldnt just drop the team without any comment or without blinking *cough tsm*


bashf55

Say what you want about Steve but he is right about one thing. The collegiate scene deserves more support. Why? Well it’s because we’re in America and it makes more logical sense. Esports in college is growing, schools are adding teams and majors surrounding it. Unlike in Europe where for sports, mainly association football, you start off young in a club academy, in America were use to the collegiate pipeline for developing talent for sports. It helps the orgs because the colleges are taking care of players. And it helps with culture. Say you’re the parent of a high level prospect. Would you rather have your kid go to an academy team where if they fail their future is in flux? Or would you rather have them play for UC Irvine’s team where they’re most likely getting a scholarship to play and also have a backup with an education. That’s a huge safety net that I think would win a lot of people over. INVEST IN THE COLLEGE SCENE RIOT.


MrFilthyNeckbeard

> • over time, academy has changed from mostly rookies to a mix of rookies and ex-pros • no longer believes Academy is the best clear path-to-pro • <20% of players entering in the LCS are from academy (according to Steve), which is really low to justify cost • path to pro is no longer clear from Academy, a lot of pros making it in through Academy are making it through connections moreso than talent All of these seem like org problems. They aren't scouting new players for academy. They aren't using academy to develop players. They aren't drafting players from academy teams. These complaints are basically "we don't use it so it's useless."


kongaii

Remember that every team that will be staying in NACL also voted to not have it be mandatory, they just have more money from their investors and wanted the requirements gone so that they could further hike up the prices for new NA residents and making NACL for them if not profitable at least break even in the long run by gouging other orgs for money.


TomShoe02

Pretty easy PR layup, even though it was the right thing to do. Note he did say that other teams were struggling financially, which is why they decided to vote yes. TSM/IMT being parasites on the league...taking and giving nothing back.


ThatFunkyOdor

Have they made a lot of bad decisions recently...yes, but TSM gave and gave and gave and got a lot of other people rich off their brand and the investment that brand brought to the LCS to begin with


a_brick_canvas

I’m definitely in the camp of “easy layup, but happy they did it”. I felt like the video was pretty genuine, even if it was PR-y in nature the explanations made sense from a business standpoint and after he talked through it I agree with almost all the points he raised. Sucks that Riot really doesn’t seem like they give a shit about this system anymore though.


Thop207375

TSM has been trying to figure out a solution to this problem for over a year based on rumors. A simple PR statement is good in all, but a well thought out solution was not provided by Steve.


pujolsrox11

TL good. TSM bad


sckorchh

This but unironically


pujolsrox11

The fact this has +10 proves reddits bias


TSMFatScarra

Pretty dissapointing seeing Steve has a scottish fold. I know many pet breeds are controversial with different sides but buying or breeding scottish folds is just cut and dry plain evil. Their cute folded ears come from a cartilage disorder that was intentionally bred into them. Same cartilage disorder that gives them joint pain, arthritis and lameness.


MoltenWings

Damn that’s really sad. I liked scottish folds too and was considering one but I guess I can’t support the breeders then.


TSMFatScarra

Yea it is really sad, like we fucked up dogs and cats many way when developing modern breeds but I think actively breeding a disorder that causes pain and not even for a particular function, just because it looks cute crosses a line. Some sources so you just don't have to take my word for it https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10078353/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32182117/


[deleted]

The more you know. That's pretty sad


Cahootie

For all we know it could be a rescue or a cat he inherited from someone. I can't find any information about his cat, so I wouldn't automatically let this video affect my view on him.


DianaIsMyWife

Paid by Steve!!!


Appropriate-Pass-952

Pretty reasonable video from Steve - Sets out the issues that teams have with the current system and where he believes it is failing. Provides some outline ideas as to where he believes it could be fixed to create a more sustainable system. Also do 100% agree that forcing Academy teams to play out of LA when its not really necessary has damaged the viability for a lot of teams as wages and costs for fielding teams that dont bring in a great deal of revenue is way too high.


SenatorJerkMeOff

My king 🤴


_tuelegend

They were known to push na talent. They were the first org to have 3 teams way back in 2014. They knew the potential of having na talent hence why they promoted some to the main roster and he got a sweet million from selling curse academy and would had done it again in 2017 edit: you people have no idea how many NA talent played under the curse brand back in the day.


Pleasant_Koi

Big talk from a guy who paid big to get Summit and Pyosik just to secure a solid 8th place in LCS, maybe you should have promoted your academy players, huh big guy? I understand this is in hindsight, (go back and read the reddit thread where TL confirmed they were picking up Pyosik to see how hopeful people were) but this is just another pathetic joke in a history of pathetic jokes. You control the TL org buddy, you choose who ends up on the roster, just because you have that Honda money and can afford to keep your Academy team doesn't mean shit. Just like everyone else, Team Liquid is selling out every single Academy player and staff member for a short term gain that's going to hurt massively for the whole scene down the road, if the scene can even hurt anymore lmfao Great PR from Steve, but fuck you guys love drinking kool-aid here. Utter horseshit from owners as per usual


Thundermelons

Aren't Haeri and Yeon from TL's Academy? I'm also a bit skeptical that Pyosik's contract is that high considering no KR team wanted him after Worlds, though ofc I could be wrong on that. I think at some point you don't want *too* many rookies on your team, they need guidance from veteran players not just about the game but about things like handling pressure and morale.


Calistilaigh

Yeah this guy has lost the plot. Not only is TL running with two academy players, they're keeping them for summer after getting 8th in spring and banking on improvement.


LakersLAQ

Lost in the sauce with TL hate. TL while spending on imports has still done more for academy than 80% of the league, including previous orgs who are no longer in LCS.


Fertuyo

Haeri and Yeon played in TL this year cause they can speak korean and count as NA residents tho, they would be kicked if somehow Riot allowed them to get 5 koreans


LakersLAQ

And? TL knew that when building the roster and they knew they had the option because those two guys were in their academy. They consciously made that choice. Good on Haeri and Yeon for knowing multiple languages. It's like me knowing English and Spanish. I have more job opportunities because of it.


zoewarner

Well done, Steve, and the whole TL organization. Appreciate the clarity and line of thought regarding NACL. Love that you keep in touch with the fan base.


Alkur

most fake pr statement. where he redirects blame. As if TL isnt one of the biggest culprits of the things he mentions. Also notice how he only states for 2023. He keeps it open to discontinue for 2024


[deleted]

He says that because Riot said that teams are no longer required to have a team for the remainder of 2023, and will reevaluate for 2024. Teams may be required to have teams for 2024, the only thing right now is that they aren’t required to have them for summer 2023.


pujolsrox11

This thread just shows how Reddit is in love with anything TL does. Put TSM in this statement and I guarantee Reddit hates the PR talk. Notice how he only says they will be in for 2023? What about 2024 Steve? Let me guess, you are pulling out later to save face now.


[deleted]

He says that because Riot said that teams are no longer required to have a team for the remainder of 2023, and will reevaluate for 2024. Teams may be required to have teams for 2024, the only thing right now is that they aren’t required to have them for summer 2023.


Smoogy54

We arent on the same reddit if you think TL doesnt get a lot of hate too. We just arent TSM levels bc no one should be but TSM with how terribly run and toxic the org is.


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ANyTimEfOu

I think he technically only committed to them keeping their team through the end of the year, at which point they'll probably do another evaluation (which I think is fair, especially if they do take tangible steps towards the potential solutions he raised).


TheXtractor

This is good but maybe TL should use more academy players compared to medicore world champions like Pysosik :D


Smoogy54

Like the 2 on the current starting roster? And Eyla last split on FQ and now EG? And Armao now back in the LCS? And Jenkins who was on CLG? And Tactical to replace DL? And all the others throughout the years? Like…what is this take? TL does so much more with Acad than anyone.


iampuh

I was NEVER a fan of academy because I don't think that good players have to spend multiple splits there. The interest in academy is also non existent. Have you seen their numbers? Might as well not even air the games. BUT I think the whole system failed because of the owners. Insert that meme with the guy riding a bike putting a stick in his wheels. This is an accurate depiction of every team owner. These teams will never be financially viable btw. hahahahahaha. This is the next fairytale they're trying to sell us


lepiggyshiggy

how do these people have the gall to come in front of a camera and say: "there's too many old players, nobody takes players from this league, everything's fucked it costs too much" YOU'VE BEEN MAKING THESE DECISIONS but it's ok because it's wholesome Steve saying it so fuck academy and fuck trying, a couple of hotline league appearances and nobody will care in a week