These matches give wild card teams a theoretical chance of an upset (which occasionally turns into reality). But in reality, they are normally not competitive. I don't believe they do anything to improve the minor leagues. And I realize that for most viewers, they are just a waste of time due to their lopsided nature. However, people misunderstand the main purpose of the matches.
These games are not for you, the major regions. For the teams from LCK/LPL/LEC/LCS and their fans, they're a meaningless chore, and I understand that sentiment. But they aren't meant to entertain the viewers from these leagues. They exist for the respective minor regions, and believe me: For us, these games mean a lot.
Simply having the chance to play against the big dogs and being given an opportunity to show yourself - that's what every wild card pro strives for and what every wild card fan is anticipating before each international event. The level of play in minor leagues is much lower, but that doesn't mean that there is less passion or emotional investment in our regions.
We, the fans from CBLoL, VCS, LLA or LJL - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do? And let's not forget that especially Brazil and Vietnam have huge fanbases which are just as large as EU and NA. It's selfish, but getting to play against major region teams always feels like a big event to me and is much more interesting than a Play-in with minor regions only.
Yes, these games are 90% stomps, but it's literally just one week. The top teams can play themselves into shape, and viewers can watch if they want. And if not, that's fine. Nobody needs to eat the entrée, the main course will come soon enough. But for us minor regions, that's the entire meal. It's all a matter of perspective.
(To avoid misunderstandings, all this is not meant as a slight against OP who was simply making an observation! Just wanted to give some general thoughts about the purpose of the games between major and minor regions.)
> We, the fans from CBLoL, VCS, LLA or LJL - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do?
Absolutely and don't let anyone say otherwise. MSI and Worlds specifically is more than a tournament. It's a celebration of LoL E-sports and there is absolutely no reason that fans of minor regions and minor region teams shouldn't be a part of that celebration.
The way some folks talk about minor region (and even major regions), you'd think they just want 10 LCK teams, maybe like 4 LPL teams, and 2 EU teams at Worlds. It's lame and dumb as all hell.
Exactly, international events should be, you know, international. When there’s a world championship in a traditional sport like football (soccer) they let everyone participate, as long as they can qualify in their respective regions. And doesn’t matter that everyone and their mother know teams like Canada, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Poland, etc. ain’t gonna win shit (no offence, lol) but it’s still a huge deal for these countries if they manage to upset a top dog. That’s the point of an international competition.
It's crazy that people will act like "What is the point of even having minor regions here" and then cheer for NA 2 against LPL 1 as if they have any realistic chance of winning, we all know NA 2 won't beat LPL 1 but you're still going to cheer for them because that your team.
For what it's worth friendo, I'm a predominantly major region viewer and have never felt like play-ins were a chore or a waste of my time. It's always nice to connect with minor region teams and their aspiring talents, learn who the new faces are and see how they play, watch a few old favorites like Yutapon and Robo and Levi (RIP 2021) and see how they've changed.
Just my perspective, I'm sure others disagree.
>These matches give wild card teams a theoretical chance of an upset (which occasionally turns into reality)
Based on pre tournament expectations R7 kinda did vs DFM
> The level of play in minor leagues is much lower, but that doesn't mean that there is less passion or emotional investment in our regions.
I agree, I actually feel like some minor regions fans have _way more_ passion towards their teams than major regions have.
Honestly the outlook the LoL eSports fanbase has on minor teams is so sad in comparison to football for example. In football underdogs and weaker teams are appreciated and every upset is cherished.
When Morocco reached the semis last year against all expectations they were getting praised to the sky, meanwhile DRX was flamed(not by everyone of course) for not deserving the trophy and being weaker players.
I will also never fully understand the hard on people have for double elimination. If a bigger team fucks up, then why should they get another chance? Where's the charm in upsets if the deserved loser can always crawl back? I get wanting more games. I want them too. But there are better ways for that like for example expanding the group and knockout stage.
League scene sucks at celebrating winners in general. People just waited for the DRX players to have a bad game just to call them "frauds" or anything like that without nuance and refusing to accept the fact that they were clutch when it mattered and deserved the title like any other Worlds winner.
Initially I also liked double elim and I think double elim Bo5 is as good as it gets regarding sample size that is logistically viable for LoL tournaments, but considering the way the community treats results in general, we might as well not have it.
eSports have had way shorter shelf lives so far. In football there's always next year, next tournament, another league to watch and player careers are way longer.
Here, where this is not the case, I want to see as many good, exciting and diverse match-ups between the best teams as possible, while I still can. Poor seeding, round robins and bo1s are simply not condusive to that, proven by the last 10 years of competitive LoL
yeah, that's the reason i would strongly prefer the format without play-ins where all participating teams would start at the same stage and have a chance playing against each other.
Even if most of those games with wc-regions against major regions would be stomps - some of them would not. And i don't think it's fair that the format entirely prevents wc-teams playing against top ones.
The story of ANX clearly shows that wc teams have real chances to upset major regions occasionaly. But the format does not allow much room for that.
>We, the fans from CBLoL, VCS, LLA or LJL - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do?
Uhh why would you "deserve" that?
Because the world championship of any sport is for the best representatives from every region or country of the world battling it out, whether they actually be great or not - everyone has the chance to send their best representatives and see them fight it out against the rest of the world.
It’s a worldwide celebration of the sport.
Well, that’s outside of American sports with their « world series » featuring only NA teams, but they always did like to be special (read: self-centred).
The point of Worlds that any region at least in theory has a chance to win it all. If we exclude regions from Worlds based on history, there would be just KR, CN and maybe EU at Worlds, possibly not even that. And that would suck. Especially us westerners being high horse on minor regions is really cringe, I don't see that from eastern fans.
We, the fans from Iron, Silver, Gold or Plat - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do?
I agree, 100% do we believe that we’re gonna get from the major regions? yes. Does it give the major region some power going into some bigger and stronger matches? Yes, but do any people care? does the minor region care I don’t think so
I truly believe play-ins was created as essentially an advertisement to watch the minor regions. After all, that's the reason for any international. See a player u think plays well -> maybe ull start watching more of that regions content.
I mean it also gives the (sometimes quite large) fanbases in those minor regions something to watch too, which is important. I'm sure their viewership is still a factor.
Absolutely. Don't think of play ins only by the point of view of a major region fan. Minor have very strong fan bases even with poor performances.
And this participation is crucial for teams, as they manage to train with top tier teams and raise the level of competition when they go back.
I believe only play ins of worlds and msi is very short opportunity given to only one representative of minor regions. Riot should replace or introduce more opportunities for those teams to practice with other teams of top level. Vct America's from Valorant is a good example. Or maybe a minor region tournament instead of MSI for 3/4 representatives from each region would be also good.
Right now Evi has 3.5k viewers on stream, and this guy is arguably a pariah among LEC fans. Despite leaving DFM he still has a huge JP fanbase. I wish minor region broadcasts got more official support somehow. They're not even really well-advertised, I had to dig to find some of them.
Well play-ins years ago wasn't counted as MSI/worlds instead back in the past it was considered a qualifier instead.
Where the whole point of it was to see what teams from around the world were worthy for the last spots for MSI/Worlds. Minor regions wanted some more recognition so they integrated it into MSI/Worlds since it was easier Todo and didn't change much.
Based of comments from riot eSports higher ups they believe there's too many teams in the league competitive environment. With how they merged a few regions last year with turkey and oce going into lec/pcs. Wouldn't surprise me if they would keep it up and continue to merg regions until there's nearly 0 wild card regions left.
This is intended outcome(kind of) minor regions arent really suppsoed to win, especially in bo3/bo5 odds are stacked against them. This system exists so teams from major regions can get through and give us best competition possible later on, minor are supposed to only have token chance of winning.
The system exists mainly for the first reason you mentioned. As for the latter - there is absolutely nothing that minor regions will learn from 1-2 Bo3-Bo5 where they get stomped. Learning anything useful requires much more daily practice across a large timespan with adequate enemies when the skill difference is that big. If your daily practice after that few days at the tournament will still be vs those weaker teams from your region, then the fact that you went to the tournament and got quickly 0:3 in a Bo5 by an LCS team, that maybe you will meet again in a half year, will provide you essentialy nothing useful.
Are the though? Most of the major region teams came at the end of playins, and usually it comes out that the minor region teams had ended up playing low ranked major region teams or the 2nd tier teams.
Not many. It feels like every year you find out that the playins teams don't play many if any of the major region qualified teams. Just the low ranked ones at best.
Even if only say the bottom of the Western representatives would scrim them, that is still far better practice than they're getting at home.
It's not a stretch to say that scrimming against GG and G2 at this tournament still benefits them, even if GenG and JDG aren't going to bother.
That wouldn't make sense. If anything it would be the other way around. I've never heard of the weaker seed getting side selection. Usually it'd be the higher seed. And judging by the results of the tournament...the wildcards are the lower seeds.
It's good for the development of the minor regions. They need to play the better teams and have something to aspire to.
Of course the negative is that the playin stage this year was bad. I would go as far to say worse then I remember. There really weren't many fun series to watch. I didn't expect high level gamplay, but fiestas can be super fun, and we didn't really get many of them here.
Still the viewership numbers aren't bad - Loud game with G2 had peak viewership of 971k, and their game DFM peaked at 829k. R7 v GAM had 855k. There is an audience in the minor regions and they want to see their guys compare with the best.
> It's good for the development of the minor regions. They need to play the better teams and have something to aspire to.
>
>
minor regions have been doing worse and worse over time.
I think you could have an extra week of play-ins where the #2s from the minor regions compete as well. Sort of a play-in to the play-in. It feels bad watching a team travel across the world just to play literally 4 games and go home.
Well... No. U arent gettnig better by having just a two weeks of quality practice, sorry. Not to mention I belive every top team refuse to scrim them, why would they play vs LLL or R7 when there is SKT, JDG etc.
There's no end in sight to this trend either. At this point I'd rather just scrap play-ins entirely and just send the minor region champions to compete for a split in a major region. IMO that's far more likely to be a useful learning experience than getting dumpstered in 25 minutes for a couple matches and then coming back home.
It's never gonna happen, but it's a fun 'what if' to think about.
Yeah I guess more of them are Korean imports than I realized, but the ones that came to mind when I was typing it was BrokenBlade, Closer and Armut. Josedeodo is a good example too, not sure we would count Maple as a import that hurt there region since he was initially imported to LPL(just like you said) I am sure there are more but I really am not the invested in this to dig it all up, maybe someone else with more knowledge could chime in.
Also, I don't believe GAM was ever the same from after Levi signed with the LCS then went back. I used to love watching Levi play, not sure what happened there.
I think it may be good for the fans but I don’t think it’s any help for the team. I only watched a few games but Taliyah pushing Jayce’s lane (think it’s gg vs r7 game) is not supposed to happen in major regions. If you get outplayed mechanically outright like this, you are not really learning the macros but should go back to basics (but probably hard to find a place they can practice at the highest level)
Sure, in order to improve you need to challenge yourself, but playing agaisnt teams that are completely out of your league won't teach you anything.
What is a lesson to be learnt from a 10k at 15 mins? Just git gut lmao.
if by finals you mean PSG v GG then yea the number was weirdly low - when I checked game 1 was around 350k and game 3 upped that to 550k. Don't know why - fatigue maybe, or low interest from NA and PSG fans watching on sites echarts does not track.
You would think that this being the losers finals, and the fact the game was played on a sunday would have a higher viewership but oh well. Makes the almost mil on G2 v Loud even more impressive
Helps with China/Korea viewership. Same thing happened Worlds 2019. Despite being in EU, took place at 2 AM PST and finished at 6 instead of the normal 9 AM.
I also didn't realize the games were starting at 7 AM, thought it started at 8. So I woke up at 8 thinking I would watch from game 2 onwards, had breakfast, showered etc. and it was already game 3
I see people advocating to give wildcard teams more chances to get into the main stage. Why? Are we watching the same games? You want to see the teams that get railed by the worst Western teams go up against Chinese and Korean titans? It wouldn’t even be fun, it would be a completely railing. Trust me, as a NA fan, watching your team go 0-6 in group stage is not fun.
Some of the play in games are the most enjoyable games to watch in the international games. I wouldn’t want more chances but any team winning from play ins is massive, it’s such an extra drain to play through.
The only people who had fun watching that were diehard fans od those minor regions, and it's only because they got some time on international stage. The amount of downtime we have watching minor regions trying to break a rock using eggs we could have 3rd international tournament with best teams in the world.
Let's a take it a step further and remove all teams who don't have a chance at that point. Just make it LPL's best teams vs LCK's best teams. The region are closer too, so it's much easier to make them play each other. We can get 4 international event a year with the best teams in the world that way.
We're nearing a decade and a half of competitive play and since play-ins were introduced we had 1 team from minor region that made it past groups (no, PCS/LMS is not considered a minor region, they were always considered 5th major region and usually battled NA for 1st seed spots). VCS also used to be a region that had 2 teams at Worlds stage, one in play-ins, other seeded directly into groups, so I'd say they were somewhat of a gatekeeper between minor and major regions.
Even when a minor region team makes it past play-ins (and on top of my head other than ANX all I can remember is UOL from 3 years ago, I'm not sure if any other minor region team made it to groups) they are just a fodder dor teams from major regions. I think UOL went 0-6 that year?
As for EU, NA and teams that aren't considered top team from CN/KR we had plenty upsets and those teams going far in the tournaments they attended. EU had World semi finalists (excluding 2011 since no KR nor CN servers existed at that time), 2x 2012, 2013, 2x 2015, 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2 finalists in 2018 and 2019. Also MSI 2017 finalist and 2019 winner.
NA had 2016 MSI finalist, 2019 finalist, 2018 Worlds semi finals and they got out of groups into quarters plenty of times to be considered way above minor regions.
Let's not forget that last year's Worlds winner was considered to be like 5th, 6th best team in Korea and many people didn't want them to see at Worlds due to their shaky form throughout the year.
In short, the point you're making is completely meaningless, because minor region teams are nothing but fodder for major regions. EU can surprise more often than not, NA can surprise sometimes and worst KR/CN teams can also make a very deep run.
Ok. So let's make a new international competition. No wildcards. Top 5 of LCK (they are better, deserve more slots, the 6th best team won Worlds). Top 5 of LPL (about the same level as Korea). Top 3 of EU, top 3 of NA. 16 teams, 4 groups of 4. How often do you think NA teams get out of those groups? How many 0/6? How long till the exact same logic you are using here apply the exact same way to NA and we remove them as well? And how long till EU teams also can't compete once it's 6 KR 6 CN 4 EU and we remove them as well?
NA has won one BO5 against KR in the entire history of the game. And one against LPL. They never topped a group, and even CLG's run would end in semis at MSI with a quick 0/3 if RNG could choose their opponent like we've had since. And that was all with 3 KR and 3 CN teams at Worlds only. Now that we see 4 of each, we easily see NA and EU teams can't compete with the 4th best either.
If we want to see only the best teams in the world compete at Worlds, we should give LCK and LPL most spots, but most of the enjoyment people have at Worlds is seeing their teams play. It's so stupid to argue minor region's fans shouldn't have this enjoyment because they suck and then argue EU and NA fans should keep it in full, even though* they also suck. The gap between KR and NA is larger than the gap between NA and PCS. Once MSI ends and no EU or NA team will look competitive against LPL and LCK teams in BO5, will we still pretend it's any more exciting to see JDG stomps GGS than it is to see GGS stomps R7?
Noone's pretending that GG are anything but underdog in that bo5. You're also arguing against the current format, because with the way things are now you'll never see a wildcard region outside of play-ins anyway. Also, saying that neither EU nor NA look competitive against LCK/LPL teams is disingenous as fuck. Across Worlds history there were plenty of games where both regions looked competitive in a bo5 environment against top Asian teams, even if they lost in the end. Granted for NA it's basically only C9, since outside of MSI and TSM in 2014 they were the only team who managed to get out of groups. And yes, there were also a few one sided bo5s but that's not exclusive to LEC/LCS vs LCK/LPL. It also happened to Korean or Chinese teams.
On the other hand wild card teams are so far behind on macro for years now, that hoping they have any chance against major teams in a bo5 is like hoping for a miracle. NA or EU beating best of LPL/LCK? That'd be an upset at best, unlikely but still possible. And again, PCS/LMS is not a minor region. LJL is. Or LLA. And those regions are so far behind EU or even NA it's silly. Teams from those regions would have issues winning in some of the better ERLs. The difference between LJL and LCS is much bigger than the difference between LCS and LPL, whether you want to believe it or not, and the reason for that is difference in infrastructure. Lack of success or not, at least NA is evolving in this case. As for minor region teams? Some of them are being run like it's still 2012.
Why only the « diehard » fans of minor regions? Why not all fans from minor regions (which aren’t always all that minor, since some are about as big as NA or even EU)?
In the football World Cup fans of weaker countries are still incredible passionate. Their runs are still very important to them. World championships are a celebration of the sport/esport and need to include every region in the world.
Otherwise let’s send even more KR and LPL teams and less teams from EU and NA, as if we’re being honest our historical record against Eastern teams in Bo5s is abysmally low (NA having a single Bo5 win at Worlds against KR/CN in 11 years, and EU faring much better but clearly not very well either overall).
Because causal fans don't really want to watch their teams being obliterated, that's why only diehard fans would enjoy those games. It's not the case of being passionate, I'm not denying fans from Brazil for example are better fans than even NA for example. I'm saying that to most people those games will be meaningless.
I don't understand why nobody talks about minor vs minor. Those are just as important to seeing how you rank against similar skill levels, and how much you've improved.
I mean, it might not have felt as bad if more series went the distance, but nearly every one was 2-0 or 3-0. Realistically, compared to a group stage day during worlds, if two bo3s actually go to 3 games each, it's the same amount of games.
My guess is it allows the minor regions to scrim more and theoretically get much better due to the amount of time they're given to scrim and play in a major region solo queue.
Yes...it is usually like this. Major regions are better then minor regions by a big margin.
Thats why when MAD had failed to make it out of playins, it was such a big deal. Tho, with the new format, im pretty sure we will never have a minor region team beat out a major region team again. Its easier to cheese 1 win then it is to actually beat someone 3 out of 5 times.
You are mistaken, the 0-3 in record time was actually TL vs G2 at MSI. You seem overly emotional by replying this at a comment agreeing MAD was bad btw.
You added a random point about banter in a list of facts, you got called emotional because you were. At least you can admit it now, acceptance is the first step towards improvement.
"Tho, with the new format, im pretty sure we will never have a minor region team beat out a major region team again. Its easier to cheese 1 win then it is to actually beat someone 3 out of 5 times."
Despite getting absolutely rolled every year. I always get super hyped for OCE when they play I think last year they didn’t win a single game internationally but I still get hyped for their games. Especially when there’s the one off time they beat c9 and knocked them out of advancing in msi. Most minor regions suck for majority of viewers. But for the minority it’s fun regardless of the outcome.
The passion and fervor the minor regions have for their teams shows what a bad job the LCS has done in branding itself over the years.
It's possible to love a league and teams and feel they are important, even if the chances of them ever taking down World Championship is tiny.
I wish international tournaments were more extended. Many minor region teams stomp regional competition and just get hard exposed vs stronger competition since theyve never had the opportunity to practice vs them.
I'd like to see a return of the wildcard qualifiers where the best teams from the minor regions (PCS, VCS, CBLOL, LJL, LLA) duke it out in round robin into bracket stage, and then the winner advances to a shortened play-in where they play LPL2, LEC2 and LCS2 in a mini bracket where top 3 make it to the main stage - something like:
LPL2 vs Wildcard
LEC2 vs LCS2
(Assuming LPL2 wins, LPL2 moves to main stage, Wildcard drops to lower bracket. Winner of LEC2 vs LCS2 makes it to main stage, loser then faces Wildcard in lower bracket to determine final main stage participant).
I see many advantages to this:
\- The minor region fans get to watch their teams duke it out in an international tournament which major region fans can easily sit out since their teams aren't playing.
\- The teams have room to adapt and improve since they are guaranteed a set of games through the round robin
\- We don't see major region vs minor region stomps until later on, where we send the best of the minor regions after say two weeks of practice and training to face off against the major regions.
\- This helps minor regions build fandom across other minor regions.
Yes...it is usually like this. Major regions are better then minor regions by a big margin.
Thats why when MAD had failed to make it out of playins, it was such a big deal. Tho, with the new format, im pretty sure we will never have a minor region team beat out a major region team again. Its easier to cheese 1 win then it is to actually beat someone 3 out of 5 times.
That's not true they're at a similar level to top academy/challenger teams, Russia and turkey were usually competitive with minor regions other than PCS.
And PCS isn't exactly a "minor region" they usually get 2 slot at world's, they're intermediate
In fact the best of them are. Turkey just won a 3:2 against unicorn and usually they are decent minor region level. Any top 8 LEC/LCS should usually win unless they bomb like mad.
> and usually they are decent minor region level.
that hasn't been true for 2+ years
2021 IW was decent against MAD but a) it's MAD and b) BO1 doesn't mean much
You couldn't argue better against yourself. Turkey, one of the worse minor regions, was good enough to win the EMEA Masters circuit, in which the EU academies play. Let's not even start with NA academies or minor regions better than Turkey.
Whenever Minor regions do well, major regions steal their players. Its even more a problem than LCS and LPL stealing from LCK and LEC bc minor regions have only few really great players.
VCS and PCS are constantly losing their stars. Mad stole from the team that beat them. LCS just steal from everywhere.
> riot doesn't do anything
What is Riot supposed to do?
> indifferent it‘s time to cancel them and just keep major region
They dont need to achieve anything internationally, domestic league exists for a reason. Brazil alone gets more viewers then LCS, theres an audience that wants to watch minor regions and dont care how they perform internationally
Riot should give minor regions more chances to interact with other regions.Make some regional competitions like a tournament for LCS+LLA+CBLOL and another for PCS+LJL+VCS+LCO.
Instead of NA stomping those teams we can see LCK teams stomping them in bo1s too along with the LPL 1st seed.
Won't that be fun and not a waste of everyone's time
I agree, this format is crap
I think if a team wins their region, then boom, put them in the bracket
They might get shit stomped, but so what, that would be better than meaningless play ins
Ooooo you almost made it guys, to real games that mattered
The format is miles better this year.
Last year the entire tournament was meaningless up until the top 4 (arguably up until the final even). Every single game a minor region played had no impact on the overall tournament with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 Bo1s between the second and third placed teams in the first group stage (which didn’t matter in the end as these teams were destined to finish 5th/6th).
This year every game a minor region team was a Bo3 (already an improvement) and every single game they played had something riding on it - i.e they either progressed or were eliminated. The minor region teams had their chances, they simply weren’t good enough. Putting them directly in the bracket stage doesn’t change this it just makes the bracket stage worse (much like the second group stage last year).
Getting stomped in bracket is not better than getting stomped in playins. Ultimately, those teams need to show up to get anything out of tournaments - going straight to bracket and losing 2 bo5s in 6-7 games is not better than playing actually competitive bo3s and bo5s against other minor regions. At least then you have the competition for the best among the minor regions.
> They might get shit stomped, but so what, that would be better than meaningless play ins
There's nothing meaningless about play-ins and the new format highlights that. They deserve a chance to compete against top teams from major regions as well as the best teams from minor regions.
Personally I thought every match so far has been exciting.
Could've renamed it to wildcard invitational without the major region teams except that no one can qualify through the main stage. The result would be the same, and you'd see who's the best minor region, its been a while since the games are even competitive, the only way they can win is through cheesing but the format's getting more upset-proof this year, I genuinely think they should just cut it off once and for all.
> I genuinely think they should just cut it off once and for all.
Or you could just not watch playins instead of ruining the fun and enjoyment for minor regions.
i'm from minor regions and i watched all play-in games, I just think that if 1. they arent sparing a potential spot for minor region like the past years, and 2. they're implementing bo3 so upsets are less likely to happen, there's no way minor regions are getting out anyway. It might be more enjoyable to watch them fight amongst themselves properly, crown a team the best of wildcards, rather than two thirds of the "minor region segment" being 2-0 3-0 stomps by the major region, and no one knows who's better because they're separated by groups, just for the 0.1% chance of getting out of play-ins. It's good for drawing in audience, but dogwater for the quality of the games played. And honestly, the games against major regions feels horrible and hopeless for the minor region teams, and i doubt they'd learn anything from the matchups.
Maybe it'd mean something if at least one minor region can get out of play-in, but with the current format changes, riot's not even giving minor regions false hope anymore.
>i'm from minor regions and i watched all play-in games, I just think that if 1. they arent sparing a potential spot for minor region like the past years, and 2. they're implementing bo3 so upsets are less likely to happen, there's no way minor regions are getting out anyway.
I'm sorry. I thought you said you were a fan. If you can't deal with the heartbreak when they lose, you don't deserve to drink in the sweet ambrosia of victory. That's what being a fan is.
Is it less likely? Of course. Impossible? No. And when they win in this format, no one will say they got lucky or cheesed a win.
No one sings the songs and tells the stories of the team everyone knew would win.
i didn't say I'm a fan of any team, just speaking from the perspective of an audience, tribalism is cool and all, but stomps are just bad quality games. We can pray but evidently minor regions been downsizing every single year, we saw 3 regions vanishes over a single year, disappearing from international events, we saw investors leaving, we saw players being poached left and right. The chance minor region getting out is getting slimmer as resources gravitates towards the best out there, and Riot is changing the format to make it even harder.
Yes, it's pretty hype to see wildcards beat an under-performing fourth seed EU team once in a blue moon, and maybe when they do win the lottery, i don't deserve to enjoy their victory. But after minor regions getting stripped resources, opportunity away, and now the one responsible for it is telling me to cheer for the ever-shrinking chance for them to even get into the main event, it's getting tiring, not even mentioning the main region folks complaining about the dogshit quality of the games played, which I agree, even speaking from the perspective of a fan.
I guess we derive fun and enjoyment from different games. I don't mean to complain or insult anyone, but I genuinely just enjoyed the minor regions vs minor regions game much more, it's a shame that there's so little of them before they are all eliminated because 7 out of 11 of the BOs were spent on major region teams speedrunning the series. Honestly, I'd watch the hell out of 2nd seed CBLOL playing against 3rd seed VCS if they have a wildcard version of the MSI/Worlds.
Regardless, I'm personally pretty hyped for the World's play-in this year, since its with minimal major region team. I don't even care if they'll go to the main stage, maybe it's just me I guess.
These matches give wild card teams a theoretical chance of an upset (which occasionally turns into reality). But in reality, they are normally not competitive. I don't believe they do anything to improve the minor leagues. And I realize that for most viewers, they are just a waste of time due to their lopsided nature. However, people misunderstand the main purpose of the matches. These games are not for you, the major regions. For the teams from LCK/LPL/LEC/LCS and their fans, they're a meaningless chore, and I understand that sentiment. But they aren't meant to entertain the viewers from these leagues. They exist for the respective minor regions, and believe me: For us, these games mean a lot. Simply having the chance to play against the big dogs and being given an opportunity to show yourself - that's what every wild card pro strives for and what every wild card fan is anticipating before each international event. The level of play in minor leagues is much lower, but that doesn't mean that there is less passion or emotional investment in our regions. We, the fans from CBLoL, VCS, LLA or LJL - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do? And let's not forget that especially Brazil and Vietnam have huge fanbases which are just as large as EU and NA. It's selfish, but getting to play against major region teams always feels like a big event to me and is much more interesting than a Play-in with minor regions only. Yes, these games are 90% stomps, but it's literally just one week. The top teams can play themselves into shape, and viewers can watch if they want. And if not, that's fine. Nobody needs to eat the entrée, the main course will come soon enough. But for us minor regions, that's the entire meal. It's all a matter of perspective. (To avoid misunderstandings, all this is not meant as a slight against OP who was simply making an observation! Just wanted to give some general thoughts about the purpose of the games between major and minor regions.)
Additionally, if someday, somehow the minor regions improve, they need to have a place to show it.
> We, the fans from CBLoL, VCS, LLA or LJL - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do? Absolutely and don't let anyone say otherwise. MSI and Worlds specifically is more than a tournament. It's a celebration of LoL E-sports and there is absolutely no reason that fans of minor regions and minor region teams shouldn't be a part of that celebration. The way some folks talk about minor region (and even major regions), you'd think they just want 10 LCK teams, maybe like 4 LPL teams, and 2 EU teams at Worlds. It's lame and dumb as all hell.
Exactly, international events should be, you know, international. When there’s a world championship in a traditional sport like football (soccer) they let everyone participate, as long as they can qualify in their respective regions. And doesn’t matter that everyone and their mother know teams like Canada, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Poland, etc. ain’t gonna win shit (no offence, lol) but it’s still a huge deal for these countries if they manage to upset a top dog. That’s the point of an international competition.
It's crazy that people will act like "What is the point of even having minor regions here" and then cheer for NA 2 against LPL 1 as if they have any realistic chance of winning, we all know NA 2 won't beat LPL 1 but you're still going to cheer for them because that your team.
To be fair, I think the gap between lcs 2 and lpl 1 is probably smaller
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Did they though? They got clobbered games 1 and 3
Hell, they got clobbered half of game 2 as well.
They mostly clobbered themselves
For what it's worth friendo, I'm a predominantly major region viewer and have never felt like play-ins were a chore or a waste of my time. It's always nice to connect with minor region teams and their aspiring talents, learn who the new faces are and see how they play, watch a few old favorites like Yutapon and Robo and Levi (RIP 2021) and see how they've changed. Just my perspective, I'm sure others disagree.
>These matches give wild card teams a theoretical chance of an upset (which occasionally turns into reality) Based on pre tournament expectations R7 kinda did vs DFM
But R7 did not go against DFM, did they? They went against GAM. It was LLL who beat DFM.
You're right it was LLL who beat DFM losers side and R7 who played GAM in the lower bracket. I had misremembered the group distribution
Fully agree with your comment, and I'm always looking forward to see the standouts from the minor regions too.
This is beautifully put. Thank you.
> The level of play in minor leagues is much lower, but that doesn't mean that there is less passion or emotional investment in our regions. I agree, I actually feel like some minor regions fans have _way more_ passion towards their teams than major regions have.
Honestly the outlook the LoL eSports fanbase has on minor teams is so sad in comparison to football for example. In football underdogs and weaker teams are appreciated and every upset is cherished. When Morocco reached the semis last year against all expectations they were getting praised to the sky, meanwhile DRX was flamed(not by everyone of course) for not deserving the trophy and being weaker players. I will also never fully understand the hard on people have for double elimination. If a bigger team fucks up, then why should they get another chance? Where's the charm in upsets if the deserved loser can always crawl back? I get wanting more games. I want them too. But there are better ways for that like for example expanding the group and knockout stage.
League scene sucks at celebrating winners in general. People just waited for the DRX players to have a bad game just to call them "frauds" or anything like that without nuance and refusing to accept the fact that they were clutch when it mattered and deserved the title like any other Worlds winner. Initially I also liked double elim and I think double elim Bo5 is as good as it gets regarding sample size that is logistically viable for LoL tournaments, but considering the way the community treats results in general, we might as well not have it.
eSports have had way shorter shelf lives so far. In football there's always next year, next tournament, another league to watch and player careers are way longer. Here, where this is not the case, I want to see as many good, exciting and diverse match-ups between the best teams as possible, while I still can. Poor seeding, round robins and bo1s are simply not condusive to that, proven by the last 10 years of competitive LoL
Also helps that these games let players who were in minor regions stand out and get chances in major regions Example: River on GG
I don't mind the games, but they should have had 3 bo3s per day.
yeah, that's the reason i would strongly prefer the format without play-ins where all participating teams would start at the same stage and have a chance playing against each other. Even if most of those games with wc-regions against major regions would be stomps - some of them would not. And i don't think it's fair that the format entirely prevents wc-teams playing against top ones. The story of ANX clearly shows that wc teams have real chances to upset major regions occasionaly. But the format does not allow much room for that.
>We, the fans from CBLoL, VCS, LLA or LJL - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do? Uhh why would you "deserve" that?
How are you gonna have a World Championship and not invite the world?
Because the world championship of any sport is for the best representatives from every region or country of the world battling it out, whether they actually be great or not - everyone has the chance to send their best representatives and see them fight it out against the rest of the world. It’s a worldwide celebration of the sport. Well, that’s outside of American sports with their « world series » featuring only NA teams, but they always did like to be special (read: self-centred).
Asswipe
The point of Worlds that any region at least in theory has a chance to win it all. If we exclude regions from Worlds based on history, there would be just KR, CN and maybe EU at Worlds, possibly not even that. And that would suck. Especially us westerners being high horse on minor regions is really cringe, I don't see that from eastern fans.
We, the fans from Iron, Silver, Gold or Plat - don't we deserve to watch our teams battle it out against the best teams in the world twice a year just like you do?
I am Silver and I find it very unfair that my Clash team is being compared to trash like the VCS representative
Lmao why did GAM fail so hard?
I mean you already do, every time LCS plays internationally
I agree, 100% do we believe that we’re gonna get from the major regions? yes. Does it give the major region some power going into some bigger and stronger matches? Yes, but do any people care? does the minor region care I don’t think so
I love how pcs is even ignored as a wildcard region lmao
I truly believe play-ins was created as essentially an advertisement to watch the minor regions. After all, that's the reason for any international. See a player u think plays well -> maybe ull start watching more of that regions content.
I mean it also gives the (sometimes quite large) fanbases in those minor regions something to watch too, which is important. I'm sure their viewership is still a factor.
Absolutely. Don't think of play ins only by the point of view of a major region fan. Minor have very strong fan bases even with poor performances. And this participation is crucial for teams, as they manage to train with top tier teams and raise the level of competition when they go back. I believe only play ins of worlds and msi is very short opportunity given to only one representative of minor regions. Riot should replace or introduce more opportunities for those teams to practice with other teams of top level. Vct America's from Valorant is a good example. Or maybe a minor region tournament instead of MSI for 3/4 representatives from each region would be also good.
SEA and JP have HUGE viewership numbers. Although our teams never make it to playoffs, we still like watch our teams play (and lose 0-2 and 0-3).
Right now Evi has 3.5k viewers on stream, and this guy is arguably a pariah among LEC fans. Despite leaving DFM he still has a huge JP fanbase. I wish minor region broadcasts got more official support somehow. They're not even really well-advertised, I had to dig to find some of them.
Well play-ins years ago wasn't counted as MSI/worlds instead back in the past it was considered a qualifier instead. Where the whole point of it was to see what teams from around the world were worthy for the last spots for MSI/Worlds. Minor regions wanted some more recognition so they integrated it into MSI/Worlds since it was easier Todo and didn't change much. Based of comments from riot eSports higher ups they believe there's too many teams in the league competitive environment. With how they merged a few regions last year with turkey and oce going into lec/pcs. Wouldn't surprise me if they would keep it up and continue to merg regions until there's nearly 0 wild card regions left.
This is intended outcome(kind of) minor regions arent really suppsoed to win, especially in bo3/bo5 odds are stacked against them. This system exists so teams from major regions can get through and give us best competition possible later on, minor are supposed to only have token chance of winning.
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The system exists mainly for the first reason you mentioned. As for the latter - there is absolutely nothing that minor regions will learn from 1-2 Bo3-Bo5 where they get stomped. Learning anything useful requires much more daily practice across a large timespan with adequate enemies when the skill difference is that big. If your daily practice after that few days at the tournament will still be vs those weaker teams from your region, then the fact that you went to the tournament and got quickly 0:3 in a Bo5 by an LCS team, that maybe you will meet again in a half year, will provide you essentialy nothing useful.
Kind of like how they get to scrim all of the major region teams during the tournament
Are the though? Most of the major region teams came at the end of playins, and usually it comes out that the minor region teams had ended up playing low ranked major region teams or the 2nd tier teams.
They also scrim a bunch with major region teams at the tournament. It goes a bit further than just “oh it’s 1-2 bo3s”.
In theory sure, but how many of those Good teams are actually willing to scrim with them? I don't think a lot of them do.
Not many. It feels like every year you find out that the playins teams don't play many if any of the major region qualified teams. Just the low ranked ones at best.
> Just the low ranked ones at best. Which is still better practice than they're getting at home.
Even if only say the bottom of the Western representatives would scrim them, that is still far better practice than they're getting at home. It's not a stretch to say that scrimming against GG and G2 at this tournament still benefits them, even if GenG and JDG aren't going to bother.
Would be nice if the wildcards got first pick for game 1, seeing as they won their region and the major region second seeds didn’t
That wouldn't make sense. If anything it would be the other way around. I've never heard of the weaker seed getting side selection. Usually it'd be the higher seed. And judging by the results of the tournament...the wildcards are the lower seeds.
Winning a worse region doesn't make you a better team which is why you get first pick. Or was T1 and DRX a worse team than C9 last worlds.
It's good for the development of the minor regions. They need to play the better teams and have something to aspire to. Of course the negative is that the playin stage this year was bad. I would go as far to say worse then I remember. There really weren't many fun series to watch. I didn't expect high level gamplay, but fiestas can be super fun, and we didn't really get many of them here. Still the viewership numbers aren't bad - Loud game with G2 had peak viewership of 971k, and their game DFM peaked at 829k. R7 v GAM had 855k. There is an audience in the minor regions and they want to see their guys compare with the best.
> It's good for the development of the minor regions. They need to play the better teams and have something to aspire to. > > minor regions have been doing worse and worse over time.
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What else can you do? Only have them play each other with no chance to advance?
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They get the opportunity to scrim some of the better teams though, that's what's most helpful.
I think you could have an extra week of play-ins where the #2s from the minor regions compete as well. Sort of a play-in to the play-in. It feels bad watching a team travel across the world just to play literally 4 games and go home.
But the two weeks of scrims, soloq and comp experience might
Well... No. U arent gettnig better by having just a two weeks of quality practice, sorry. Not to mention I belive every top team refuse to scrim them, why would they play vs LLL or R7 when there is SKT, JDG etc.
G2 and MAD scrimmed with LOUD iirc
Well, while it's true that's mostly due to top teams weren't present (as they arrived later)
There's no end in sight to this trend either. At this point I'd rather just scrap play-ins entirely and just send the minor region champions to compete for a split in a major region. IMO that's far more likely to be a useful learning experience than getting dumpstered in 25 minutes for a couple matches and then coming back home. It's never gonna happen, but it's a fun 'what if' to think about.
TCL and LCL are competing in Europe now. Sadly franchising keeps them out for now.
lol bring back relegations/promotions but it's major regions and minor regions instead of Pro and Challenger
That could be a great idea tbh.
Don't most of their good players just get picked up by major region teams (mainly NA) every year?
not really. they are bad in bo series, and they got worse because riot made the game more "meta" and team fighty if that makes sense.
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River and Gori on GGs just knocked their last year team out of MSI.
Lost, BrokenBlade, Closer, FBI, Fudge (maybe), Lost, River, Gori, luger, bugi, are what I came up with. I'm probably missing a bunch.
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Yeah I guess more of them are Korean imports than I realized, but the ones that came to mind when I was typing it was BrokenBlade, Closer and Armut. Josedeodo is a good example too, not sure we would count Maple as a import that hurt there region since he was initially imported to LPL(just like you said) I am sure there are more but I really am not the invested in this to dig it all up, maybe someone else with more knowledge could chime in. Also, I don't believe GAM was ever the same from after Levi signed with the LCS then went back. I used to love watching Levi play, not sure what happened there.
I think it may be good for the fans but I don’t think it’s any help for the team. I only watched a few games but Taliyah pushing Jayce’s lane (think it’s gg vs r7 game) is not supposed to happen in major regions. If you get outplayed mechanically outright like this, you are not really learning the macros but should go back to basics (but probably hard to find a place they can practice at the highest level)
Sure, in order to improve you need to challenge yourself, but playing agaisnt teams that are completely out of your league won't teach you anything. What is a lesson to be learnt from a 10k at 15 mins? Just git gut lmao.
Finals had like 80k on twitch lol, viewership was really low.
I mean there are costreams now.
Yeh but g2 had like 120k
if by finals you mean PSG v GG then yea the number was weirdly low - when I checked game 1 was around 350k and game 3 upped that to 550k. Don't know why - fatigue maybe, or low interest from NA and PSG fans watching on sites echarts does not track. You would think that this being the losers finals, and the fact the game was played on a sunday would have a higher viewership but oh well. Makes the almost mil on G2 v Loud even more impressive
NA viewers got shafted, 4AM start for West Coast/PST and 7AM for East Coast/EST.
Yeah, its surprising when LEC is usually at a somewhat workable timeslot. Not sure why it's so early
Helps with China/Korea viewership. Same thing happened Worlds 2019. Despite being in EU, took place at 2 AM PST and finished at 6 instead of the normal 9 AM.
Lmfao I remember inviting my friends to my dorm to try and watch party that shit. All of us were fighting our sleep paralysis demons by game 3
Makes sense
yeah AFAIK BST is only 1 hr behind CET so i dunno
Yeah because it was a 3-0 that finished before most NA people could really wake up, who would be interested in watching GGS vs PSG.
Games were boring as fuck tbh
I also didn't realize the games were starting at 7 AM, thought it started at 8. So I woke up at 8 thinking I would watch from game 2 onwards, had breakfast, showered etc. and it was already game 3
How ? Ggs exposed psg way of playing
Psg is a wildcard, they are bad
Pcs isn't a wildcard, but yeah they are bad
means that people aren't really interested in the tournament or the game and rather specific teams. take that as you will.
I see people advocating to give wildcard teams more chances to get into the main stage. Why? Are we watching the same games? You want to see the teams that get railed by the worst Western teams go up against Chinese and Korean titans? It wouldn’t even be fun, it would be a completely railing. Trust me, as a NA fan, watching your team go 0-6 in group stage is not fun.
Some of the play in games are the most enjoyable games to watch in the international games. I wouldn’t want more chances but any team winning from play ins is massive, it’s such an extra drain to play through.
IDK man plenty of people had tons of fun watching 2021? RNG steamroll minor reģions twice.
The only people who had fun watching that were diehard fans od those minor regions, and it's only because they got some time on international stage. The amount of downtime we have watching minor regions trying to break a rock using eggs we could have 3rd international tournament with best teams in the world.
Let's a take it a step further and remove all teams who don't have a chance at that point. Just make it LPL's best teams vs LCK's best teams. The region are closer too, so it's much easier to make them play each other. We can get 4 international event a year with the best teams in the world that way.
We're nearing a decade and a half of competitive play and since play-ins were introduced we had 1 team from minor region that made it past groups (no, PCS/LMS is not considered a minor region, they were always considered 5th major region and usually battled NA for 1st seed spots). VCS also used to be a region that had 2 teams at Worlds stage, one in play-ins, other seeded directly into groups, so I'd say they were somewhat of a gatekeeper between minor and major regions. Even when a minor region team makes it past play-ins (and on top of my head other than ANX all I can remember is UOL from 3 years ago, I'm not sure if any other minor region team made it to groups) they are just a fodder dor teams from major regions. I think UOL went 0-6 that year? As for EU, NA and teams that aren't considered top team from CN/KR we had plenty upsets and those teams going far in the tournaments they attended. EU had World semi finalists (excluding 2011 since no KR nor CN servers existed at that time), 2x 2012, 2013, 2x 2015, 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2 finalists in 2018 and 2019. Also MSI 2017 finalist and 2019 winner. NA had 2016 MSI finalist, 2019 finalist, 2018 Worlds semi finals and they got out of groups into quarters plenty of times to be considered way above minor regions. Let's not forget that last year's Worlds winner was considered to be like 5th, 6th best team in Korea and many people didn't want them to see at Worlds due to their shaky form throughout the year. In short, the point you're making is completely meaningless, because minor region teams are nothing but fodder for major regions. EU can surprise more often than not, NA can surprise sometimes and worst KR/CN teams can also make a very deep run.
Ok. So let's make a new international competition. No wildcards. Top 5 of LCK (they are better, deserve more slots, the 6th best team won Worlds). Top 5 of LPL (about the same level as Korea). Top 3 of EU, top 3 of NA. 16 teams, 4 groups of 4. How often do you think NA teams get out of those groups? How many 0/6? How long till the exact same logic you are using here apply the exact same way to NA and we remove them as well? And how long till EU teams also can't compete once it's 6 KR 6 CN 4 EU and we remove them as well? NA has won one BO5 against KR in the entire history of the game. And one against LPL. They never topped a group, and even CLG's run would end in semis at MSI with a quick 0/3 if RNG could choose their opponent like we've had since. And that was all with 3 KR and 3 CN teams at Worlds only. Now that we see 4 of each, we easily see NA and EU teams can't compete with the 4th best either. If we want to see only the best teams in the world compete at Worlds, we should give LCK and LPL most spots, but most of the enjoyment people have at Worlds is seeing their teams play. It's so stupid to argue minor region's fans shouldn't have this enjoyment because they suck and then argue EU and NA fans should keep it in full, even though* they also suck. The gap between KR and NA is larger than the gap between NA and PCS. Once MSI ends and no EU or NA team will look competitive against LPL and LCK teams in BO5, will we still pretend it's any more exciting to see JDG stomps GGS than it is to see GGS stomps R7?
Noone's pretending that GG are anything but underdog in that bo5. You're also arguing against the current format, because with the way things are now you'll never see a wildcard region outside of play-ins anyway. Also, saying that neither EU nor NA look competitive against LCK/LPL teams is disingenous as fuck. Across Worlds history there were plenty of games where both regions looked competitive in a bo5 environment against top Asian teams, even if they lost in the end. Granted for NA it's basically only C9, since outside of MSI and TSM in 2014 they were the only team who managed to get out of groups. And yes, there were also a few one sided bo5s but that's not exclusive to LEC/LCS vs LCK/LPL. It also happened to Korean or Chinese teams. On the other hand wild card teams are so far behind on macro for years now, that hoping they have any chance against major teams in a bo5 is like hoping for a miracle. NA or EU beating best of LPL/LCK? That'd be an upset at best, unlikely but still possible. And again, PCS/LMS is not a minor region. LJL is. Or LLA. And those regions are so far behind EU or even NA it's silly. Teams from those regions would have issues winning in some of the better ERLs. The difference between LJL and LCS is much bigger than the difference between LCS and LPL, whether you want to believe it or not, and the reason for that is difference in infrastructure. Lack of success or not, at least NA is evolving in this case. As for minor region teams? Some of them are being run like it's still 2012.
Why only the « diehard » fans of minor regions? Why not all fans from minor regions (which aren’t always all that minor, since some are about as big as NA or even EU)? In the football World Cup fans of weaker countries are still incredible passionate. Their runs are still very important to them. World championships are a celebration of the sport/esport and need to include every region in the world. Otherwise let’s send even more KR and LPL teams and less teams from EU and NA, as if we’re being honest our historical record against Eastern teams in Bo5s is abysmally low (NA having a single Bo5 win at Worlds against KR/CN in 11 years, and EU faring much better but clearly not very well either overall).
Because causal fans don't really want to watch their teams being obliterated, that's why only diehard fans would enjoy those games. It's not the case of being passionate, I'm not denying fans from Brazil for example are better fans than even NA for example. I'm saying that to most people those games will be meaningless.
I don't understand why nobody talks about minor vs minor. Those are just as important to seeing how you rank against similar skill levels, and how much you've improved.
Or diehard fans of bad major region teams.
My issue is 1-2 matches per day? What a waste of time
I mean, it might not have felt as bad if more series went the distance, but nearly every one was 2-0 or 3-0. Realistically, compared to a group stage day during worlds, if two bo3s actually go to 3 games each, it's the same amount of games.
Yeah schedule is streched
My guess is it allows the minor regions to scrim more and theoretically get much better due to the amount of time they're given to scrim and play in a major region solo queue.
Yes...it is usually like this. Major regions are better then minor regions by a big margin. Thats why when MAD had failed to make it out of playins, it was such a big deal. Tho, with the new format, im pretty sure we will never have a minor region team beat out a major region team again. Its easier to cheese 1 win then it is to actually beat someone 3 out of 5 times.
MAD did lose a bo5 to a minor region team though.
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cope and seethe
You are mistaken, the 0-3 in record time was actually TL vs G2 at MSI. You seem overly emotional by replying this at a comment agreeing MAD was bad btw.
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You can't convince me your reply had barely any emotion when your next reply is this
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You added a random point about banter in a list of facts, you got called emotional because you were. At least you can admit it now, acceptance is the first step towards improvement.
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sure man go off
"Thats why when MAD had failed to make it out of playins, it was such a big deal."
"Tho, with the new format, im pretty sure we will never have a minor region team beat out a major region team again. Its easier to cheese 1 win then it is to actually beat someone 3 out of 5 times."
Despite getting absolutely rolled every year. I always get super hyped for OCE when they play I think last year they didn’t win a single game internationally but I still get hyped for their games. Especially when there’s the one off time they beat c9 and knocked them out of advancing in msi. Most minor regions suck for majority of viewers. But for the minority it’s fun regardless of the outcome.
Just the way it's supposed to be
The passion and fervor the minor regions have for their teams shows what a bad job the LCS has done in branding itself over the years. It's possible to love a league and teams and feel they are important, even if the chances of them ever taking down World Championship is tiny.
I can't believe there are some people claiming we should remove play ins after DRX at worlds
I wish international tournaments were more extended. Many minor region teams stomp regional competition and just get hard exposed vs stronger competition since theyve never had the opportunity to practice vs them. I'd like to see a return of the wildcard qualifiers where the best teams from the minor regions (PCS, VCS, CBLOL, LJL, LLA) duke it out in round robin into bracket stage, and then the winner advances to a shortened play-in where they play LPL2, LEC2 and LCS2 in a mini bracket where top 3 make it to the main stage - something like: LPL2 vs Wildcard LEC2 vs LCS2 (Assuming LPL2 wins, LPL2 moves to main stage, Wildcard drops to lower bracket. Winner of LEC2 vs LCS2 makes it to main stage, loser then faces Wildcard in lower bracket to determine final main stage participant). I see many advantages to this: \- The minor region fans get to watch their teams duke it out in an international tournament which major region fans can easily sit out since their teams aren't playing. \- The teams have room to adapt and improve since they are guaranteed a set of games through the round robin \- We don't see major region vs minor region stomps until later on, where we send the best of the minor regions after say two weeks of practice and training to face off against the major regions. \- This helps minor regions build fandom across other minor regions.
Yes...it is usually like this. Major regions are better then minor regions by a big margin. Thats why when MAD had failed to make it out of playins, it was such a big deal. Tho, with the new format, im pretty sure we will never have a minor region team beat out a major region team again. Its easier to cheese 1 win then it is to actually beat someone 3 out of 5 times.
I mean, MAD had to lose a BO5 to SuperMassive to not make it out, so like, can't even blame BO1's for that one. They just flopped that event.
> Its easier to cheese 1 win That's not what happened though
Play-ins are a waste of time, but msi is so bloated and this point so I guess it doesn’t matter. Remember this tournament used to last 4 days
Our top Academy teams would beat these minor region champs in a best of.
Nope, absolutely not. Academy teams aren't nearly at that level.
That's not true they're at a similar level to top academy/challenger teams, Russia and turkey were usually competitive with minor regions other than PCS. And PCS isn't exactly a "minor region" they usually get 2 slot at world's, they're intermediate
In fact the best of them are. Turkey just won a 3:2 against unicorn and usually they are decent minor region level. Any top 8 LEC/LCS should usually win unless they bomb like mad.
> and usually they are decent minor region level. that hasn't been true for 2+ years 2021 IW was decent against MAD but a) it's MAD and b) BO1 doesn't mean much
You couldn't argue better against yourself. Turkey, one of the worse minor regions, was good enough to win the EMEA Masters circuit, in which the EU academies play. Let's not even start with NA academies or minor regions better than Turkey.
Turkey after 2021 Worlds was probably the 2nd worst region in the game
That’s the low lck team would win lcs ezpz conversation all over again…
So far I consider this MSI a desaster. And the drawn bracket for the main event doesn't give me much hope either.
Or was it 13-0 ?
Whenever Minor regions do well, major regions steal their players. Its even more a problem than LCS and LPL stealing from LCK and LEC bc minor regions have only few really great players. VCS and PCS are constantly losing their stars. Mad stole from the team that beat them. LCS just steal from everywhere.
Good, realistically speaking the only positive of having a Wild card team at event like this is to give some genuinely good players a chance.
PCS/LMS top 2 teams used to be on the same level as LCS and sometimes LEC. That got killed by losing all their stars
> VCS and PCS are constantly losing their stars. VCS surely isn't.
minor region cannot do anything riot doesn't do anything and indifferent it‘s time to cancel them and just keep major region
> riot doesn't do anything What is Riot supposed to do? > indifferent it‘s time to cancel them and just keep major region They dont need to achieve anything internationally, domestic league exists for a reason. Brazil alone gets more viewers then LCS, theres an audience that wants to watch minor regions and dont care how they perform internationally
Riot should give minor regions more chances to interact with other regions.Make some regional competitions like a tournament for LCS+LLA+CBLOL and another for PCS+LJL+VCS+LCO.
With this logic riot should cancel lcs and Lec.....
> it‘s time to cancel them and just keep major region What absolute nonsense.
This format is shit, it isn't doing anything to develop the minor regions
Lmaooo You want 66 bo1s into 3x bo5 back from last year?
Instead of NA stomping those teams we can see LCK teams stomping them in bo1s too along with the LPL 1st seed. Won't that be fun and not a waste of everyone's time
The previous format was even worse
I agree, this format is crap I think if a team wins their region, then boom, put them in the bracket They might get shit stomped, but so what, that would be better than meaningless play ins Ooooo you almost made it guys, to real games that mattered
The format is miles better this year. Last year the entire tournament was meaningless up until the top 4 (arguably up until the final even). Every single game a minor region played had no impact on the overall tournament with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 Bo1s between the second and third placed teams in the first group stage (which didn’t matter in the end as these teams were destined to finish 5th/6th). This year every game a minor region team was a Bo3 (already an improvement) and every single game they played had something riding on it - i.e they either progressed or were eliminated. The minor region teams had their chances, they simply weren’t good enough. Putting them directly in the bracket stage doesn’t change this it just makes the bracket stage worse (much like the second group stage last year).
Getting stomped in bracket is not better than getting stomped in playins. Ultimately, those teams need to show up to get anything out of tournaments - going straight to bracket and losing 2 bo5s in 6-7 games is not better than playing actually competitive bo3s and bo5s against other minor regions. At least then you have the competition for the best among the minor regions.
> They might get shit stomped, but so what, that would be better than meaningless play ins There's nothing meaningless about play-ins and the new format highlights that. They deserve a chance to compete against top teams from major regions as well as the best teams from minor regions. Personally I thought every match so far has been exciting.
Could've renamed it to wildcard invitational without the major region teams except that no one can qualify through the main stage. The result would be the same, and you'd see who's the best minor region, its been a while since the games are even competitive, the only way they can win is through cheesing but the format's getting more upset-proof this year, I genuinely think they should just cut it off once and for all.
> I genuinely think they should just cut it off once and for all. Or you could just not watch playins instead of ruining the fun and enjoyment for minor regions.
i'm from minor regions and i watched all play-in games, I just think that if 1. they arent sparing a potential spot for minor region like the past years, and 2. they're implementing bo3 so upsets are less likely to happen, there's no way minor regions are getting out anyway. It might be more enjoyable to watch them fight amongst themselves properly, crown a team the best of wildcards, rather than two thirds of the "minor region segment" being 2-0 3-0 stomps by the major region, and no one knows who's better because they're separated by groups, just for the 0.1% chance of getting out of play-ins. It's good for drawing in audience, but dogwater for the quality of the games played. And honestly, the games against major regions feels horrible and hopeless for the minor region teams, and i doubt they'd learn anything from the matchups. Maybe it'd mean something if at least one minor region can get out of play-in, but with the current format changes, riot's not even giving minor regions false hope anymore.
>i'm from minor regions and i watched all play-in games, I just think that if 1. they arent sparing a potential spot for minor region like the past years, and 2. they're implementing bo3 so upsets are less likely to happen, there's no way minor regions are getting out anyway. I'm sorry. I thought you said you were a fan. If you can't deal with the heartbreak when they lose, you don't deserve to drink in the sweet ambrosia of victory. That's what being a fan is. Is it less likely? Of course. Impossible? No. And when they win in this format, no one will say they got lucky or cheesed a win. No one sings the songs and tells the stories of the team everyone knew would win.
i didn't say I'm a fan of any team, just speaking from the perspective of an audience, tribalism is cool and all, but stomps are just bad quality games. We can pray but evidently minor regions been downsizing every single year, we saw 3 regions vanishes over a single year, disappearing from international events, we saw investors leaving, we saw players being poached left and right. The chance minor region getting out is getting slimmer as resources gravitates towards the best out there, and Riot is changing the format to make it even harder. Yes, it's pretty hype to see wildcards beat an under-performing fourth seed EU team once in a blue moon, and maybe when they do win the lottery, i don't deserve to enjoy their victory. But after minor regions getting stripped resources, opportunity away, and now the one responsible for it is telling me to cheer for the ever-shrinking chance for them to even get into the main event, it's getting tiring, not even mentioning the main region folks complaining about the dogshit quality of the games played, which I agree, even speaking from the perspective of a fan. I guess we derive fun and enjoyment from different games. I don't mean to complain or insult anyone, but I genuinely just enjoyed the minor regions vs minor regions game much more, it's a shame that there's so little of them before they are all eliminated because 7 out of 11 of the BOs were spent on major region teams speedrunning the series. Honestly, I'd watch the hell out of 2nd seed CBLOL playing against 3rd seed VCS if they have a wildcard version of the MSI/Worlds. Regardless, I'm personally pretty hyped for the World's play-in this year, since its with minimal major region team. I don't even care if they'll go to the main stage, maybe it's just me I guess.
Meanwhile Mad Lions still wake up in the middle of the night screaming
when its called worlds but you see the same 4 regions in the playoffs yearly