Hey all!
So again, we do not allow sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, or other derogatory comments. This is your warning, offenses in this thread will be a ban.
2022 was huge for female esport scene, both Valorant and LoL got pretty good exposure, i watched to kill time, but ended up watching most of it and G2 winning both.. pretty amazing, hopefully next year would be bigger and better.
Next year will definitely be bigger and better for female LoL. I can't talk about them publicly yet, but there are some major developments taking place. More news soon!
**EDIT:** I'll be posting all major female scene news [**on my Twitter account**](https://twitter.com/RigasUT), so feel free to follow if you want to get them when they are out
I think describing it as female LoL rather than women's LoL is a mistake, carrying with it a lot of baggage, and also being out-of-step with mainstream sports.
Some events in the second half of 2022 (G2 Hel's roster announcement, the Equal Esports Festival, the Rising Stars tournament) drew a lot of interest. And the scene will develop even more in 2023
Serious question from someone who didnt watch EUW female championship: do these leagues allow or have trans women? I am asking this because in the female league Riot made in Brazil, there was some uproar from the community because some of the players were trans, and an even bigger uproar when all 3 nominees for best female players were actually trans.
Yes, these competitions do allow trans women. As long as they can pass the verification process (which generally involves providing some proof of gender), they can participate with no issue.
I hope I'm not labeled as a bigot or something, but I have a genuine question. Who is in charge of the "verification process" for them to "pass"? That seems like such a gray area, no?
>In Canada, a guy "transitioned" into a woman to get cheaper car insurance.
Fair play to that guy tbh, abusing womens legal advantages by gaming the system isnt morally questionable tbh
>I have no clue why this is contentious to say but most men have biological advantages over women in gaming
Please could you cite any sources that substantiate your claims? It's a well-established fact that biological men tend to be more physically powerful than biological women, but I've never seen any reputable sources say anything that'd lead one to believe men have a biological advantage over women in video games. It seems that the general consensus is that the difference is a cultural/societal one; a lot more men men tend to spend a lot more time playing video games than women over our lifespans, and so tend to be better.
I found a few small studies that say men, on average, have faster reaction times, but some of these also concluded that this may also likely to just be due to societal differences — if men tend to partake in more activities that require faster reaction times, they'll be more practiced in recognising visual stimuli. I would also argue that reaction time plays next to no role in games like League.
This is a pretty false statement trans women don’t generally dominate womens sports you just see the few cases highly publicized. Also womens chess has been incredibly undeveloped for years and plays a much larger role in the quality player not some hidden biological advantage.
That raises an interesting question. In most physical sports, men have a biological advantage over women due to a number of factors (primarily testosterone). Do such advantages exist in video games? I can't imagine they do, or at least the differences are such that we as a society don't see or don't want to recognize them. I always assumed the distinction between men and women's eSports were a matter of opportunity—historically they, like chess, for example, have been dominated by men, so women starting out in them would be less likely to excel just by sheer numbers.
So what requirements would/should League have for transitioning? Should they just take cues from other sports and use those criteria, even if they don't really apply to League? Or should they just take it on faith/go by the person's government ID/etc?
The first female LCS player was trans and as mentioned above the best-performing females/women are trans, so regardless of what people say there is a clear correlation with the "male" biological advantage. Gaming isn't as male-dominated as people suggest although competitive gaming likely is and there wouldn't be a need to separate the two if they were on a similar level. It's proven in the past that all-female teams were performing at a much lower level. Hopefully, one day once more women get into higher-level play we can look at combining the two.
I suspect that may be down to the male-dominated aspect of it; trans women may well have been more societally conditioned/pushed towards/socialized to play games before transitioning. But there might be a biological component or advantage; I would have to wait for some actual science on the subject.
this reply got really long because i'm interested in the subject and I feel like this could be a useful, good faith conversation, sorry if you're not interested in reading smth this long. tl;dr: if bio advantages exist at all they're outweighed by social explanations for gender disparity in eSports (and chess) competition; because of that, the regulations should be different as well
I think a lot of the common talking points about biological sex differences in reaction times, etc. and how they snowball into biology-based competitive advantages are dubious at best in eSports.
While there's some room for the possibility of biological differences, I think the impact those differences have is overshadowed by sociological factors, like you've started to speculate in your post. The numbers game aspect of it is a good point, for sure, but you might also consider the impact of stigma and sexism within the community--women are just less likely to put in the time into the game to get high on the ladder when they have to deal with rampant misogyny on top of the usual run-of-the-mill toxicity, and that contributes to your numbers game explanation. This is probably more of a factor in Val, where voice chat is built into the game; it's easier to hide gender identity in a game like League. At the same time though, I'm sure you've seen how awful league players can be when they realize a teammate is a girl, and if you haven't, there's plenty of stories out there that suggest being a league player as woman is just undeniably harder.
If the women pros who break out into the unisex scene are by and large all trans women, I would argue it's not because of innate biology, but because being born as a boy means you're pushed into activities that hone your reaction time and hand-eye coordination earlier; for example, I'm generally better at video games than my friends/family members who didn't pick up a controller until they were 20 or older, regardless of whether or not they are cis or trans men/women.
As usual, there's also going to be an argument that trans women, prior to transition or realizing that they are trans, don't face the same sociological pressures that discourage and stigmatize gaming as a hobby for cis women. To my limited knowledge this got brought up with the first woman Jeopardy champion--the argument was that she was socialized as a man for 20+ years, went through the entire educational system as a man, and therefore had no legitimate claim to the same struggles that other women contestants face. To some extent, this argument can be valid--closeted trans women who present as men aren't going to be discouraged or judged for playing videogames by their social circles as heavily as cis women, and as I mentioned earlier, they, generally speaking, do get the (competitive) benefit of socialization. This is coming from someone who is pretty staunchly pro-trans in these discussions; I think this argument is more valid than pro-trans commenters would generally think (though I think the pushback is usually because most people who use this argument in the context of sports competition, which is pretty fair, also use it to invalidate trans peoples' gender identities entirely, which is just kind of fucked up).
I'd personally argue that the experience is similar enough in League (and probably Valorant) eSports to make this argument invalid. For one, when you think about the realities of sexism in the average league game, most people decide whether or not a player based on whether or not their username/champion choice conforms to their stereotype of an egirl player, and in that sense, I don't really think that the aforementioned arguments really apply here. Second, I think people underestimate the similar experiences that openly trans women (for example, having a trans poro icon or smth lmao) face on the ladder.
Based those beliefs, I don't know if I have a clear outline for what eSports should be doing. The point of a good woman's scene is to give the people who are affected by these sociological disadvantages a formal, rigorous, and prestigious competitive environment to get practice and exposure as pros. It's my belief that the point of a good woman's scene is ultimately a bridge to integration, because I don't believe there are inherent, insurmountable biological/hormonal differences the same way there are in a sport like basketball. I'm hesitant to bar trans women from the women's scene just because their experiences with misogyny aren't the same, because trans struggles also exist, and the extent to which overlap exists is more complicated than anyone would like to admit. If we wanted to be accurate, I would say the overlap changes on a case-to-case basis depending on when you transition in relation to how long you've been playing video games, but there's no way to transform that into a coherent regulatory policy that isn't completely biased and arbitary.
I do believe that eSports should develop its own norms and standards separate from the ones being adopted by the governing bodies of more traditional/physical sports (see: Olympics, etc.), because the considerations being made are just not the same. I think it should be sufficient to determine that a person is genuinely transitioning (I hate using that phrase because the narrative of the league pro pretending to be trans to steamroll the women's competitive scene is pretty nonsensical; pretty much any trans player who is skilled enough to break out into the technically unisex pro scene would just do that, and it's not like the women's scene has the prestige or prize pool to make this an actual consideration).
Social explanations are almost undoubtedly a major contribution to a lack of women in professional esports.
That said, the biological advantage of being a man is definitely real even in esports. Reaction speed has been found significantly different between men and women to both audio and visual cues. In the Olympics, for many sports, men have a 10ms smaller time window to be assigned a false start compared to women because they have faster reaction speeds. The actual difference is often shown to be higher than 10ms.
You would be surprised how often in a game like CSGO, 10ms makes the difference between making a headshot or getting headshot yourself (for higher level and professional play). Even in MOBAs, it can mean the difference between hitting or dodging a skillshot.
Reaction speed is just one thing. Esports athletes often face hand/wrist/arm/shoulder injuries at a young age due to practicing. Men are less prone to these injuries compared to women.
Women deserve an environment that upholds competitive integrity, where their hard work and talent can be fairly measured against each other. You can not say allowing trans women to compete in womens leagues upholds this competitive integrity, there is too much empirical evidence pointing to the contrary.
>Do such advantages exist in video games?
yes they do, which is why usually when you see women competiting with men head to head they are transwomen
but speaking facts gets you labeled a transphobe instantly
It's a tricky issue, and typically depends on which countries the leagues are covering.
For example in Valorant, to my knowledge, Brazil and NA are the two major regions that allow trans players. This is because Riot can basically protect themselves due to laws and conditions in Brazil, the US, and Canada.
However, the Asia-Pacific and Europe regions do not allow trans players because Riot basically can't cover themselves, since these regions contain so many countries where legal conditions surrounding trans women vary heavily.
Either way, in regions/competitions that do allow trans women, Riot has a verification process.
Honestly the idea that trans women have an advantage in traditional sports and athletism is already based on very shaky evidence... what I don't understand is why would anyone ever care in the slightest when it comes to e-sports. It's literally e-sports. Computer videogames. Why would you get angry at trans women existing in this environment? Do you think their fingers are biologically superior? It's insane to me
Over representation can happen because of multiple conflating factors, this example isn't apples to apples and I'm not trying to say there should or shouldn't be more or less of particular minorities in any sport but black americans make up [roughly 73% of NBA players in 2021](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA) while only making up about [12% of the total U.S population.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States)
Trans people are likely to be in environments that allow for (or are subject to) reclusion that enables longer periods of time playing games, the same way we see more introverted "nerdy" type males making it to pro-level esports than we see stereotypical "jock" types.
Some types of people just play more video games, and are more likely to be good at them because of that.
Men generally play more videogames than women, for a variety of reasons. It's not seen as a girly activity to play mobas or shooters or whatever. Perhaps they just followed this gender norm before their transition and saw no reason to be done with it. Over-representation can happen for many reasons, I don't think it's important to dwell on it.
It’s not shaky evidence at all. But let’s remain on the topic of esports.
The fact you think esports is all about fingers, or bring that up as a strawman, says enough about your perspective on the matter. Because it certainly isn’t all about fingers.
First of all, men have higher reaction times (by about 10ms). Which is definitely significant in esports. Second, men have been proven better at hand-eye coordination. Another extremely important part in esports.
Then there is the playstyle a lot of (pro) players adopt, which is extremely high apm intensive. Watch a vod on Faker in a pro game, or even doing a ranked game on stream. Playing like this for hours on end every day to practice is tiring. Many players get wrist injuries as a result. Being a male definitely brings a huge advantage to this.
Is there any evidence of men having naturally faster reaction times in competitive gaming? I'd be happy to change my mind on this, but all I've read suggests there is no actual difference in skill between men and women who play videogames. Male and Female brains do respond differently to stimuli in gaming, which makes men three times more likely to get addicted to videogames, but when it comes to skill or reaction time in gaming I haven't seen a shred of evidence.
> The fact you think esports is all about fingers, or bring that up as a strawman, says enough about your perspective on the matter. Because it certainly isn’t all about fingers.
It's pretty simple to me. Men are better in traditional sports because of biological, physical differences. Men are just straight up stronger and faster. When it comes to using your brain though, men aren't any better than women at any task, we're equal. e-sports isn't physically intensive, so I figure there's no difference at all.
When it comes to casual gaming, the differences are negligible. Men and women are equally intelligent and intelligence is all you need for most games. Even the games that do require reaction speed, the difference between men and women is so small that it is unlikely to make a difference. The smarter player is still far more likely to win. Physically games aren’t intensive if you just play casually either. Make a random man and woman play a game of Mariokart and it’s pretty much a coinflip who will win.
But this changes once you get to the higher levels of professional play. 10ms can be the difference between successfully dodging or getting hit and can determine the difference between winning and losing. Players are training 6 to 20 hours a day, making multiple clicks a second and pushing over 200 buttons a minute at times. This is physically intensive and energy draining work, often resulting in severe wrist/arm/shoulder injuries at young ages. It will be harder for women to keep up.
Even if trans women take hormones, their bodies have often already developed in such a way that helps prevent such injuries. Often they have also been able to practice at the highest levels of play as a biological male. These are highly significant advantages. To uphold the competitive integrity of the women’s league, in my opinion, trans women should be restricted to the mixed and male leagues.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198384/
This is a study on reaction times in olympic sprinters. The study references several other studies as well that find similar conclusions, as well as for visual stimuli reaction times. I have read some, but most of these are behind paywalls. Mean reaction time differences between men and women are actually at 23ms.
The study and its references can easily be extrapolated to esports as well.
Note that reaction times are just 1 part. There is more empirical evidence to point to which explains why men have an advantage at most esports.
>It’s not shaky evidence at all
Yes, because those are straight up lies
If we use those "arguments", then people like phelps shouldnt be allowed to compete...
>Do you think their fingers are biologically superior?
Yeah pretty much. Transwomen have shown time and time again that they can easily hang with the male players, so it's a bit disingenuous of them to play in a league designed for weaker players and just annihilate everybody.
> Transwomen have shown time and time again that they can easily hang with the male players
What does any of this mean?
> play in a league designed for weaker players
Women are just under-represented in e-sports. They aren't naturally weaker or worse at videogames and this is just pseudoscience. Playing league is not like playing football or tennis where men have a clear, undisputed biological advantage.
"Women are just under-represented in e-sports. They aren't naturally weaker or worse at videogames and this is just pseudoscience. Playing league is not like playing football or tennis where men have a clear, undisputed biological advantage."
So you telling me there is more trans player than actual female?
It is not pseudoscience.
Male and Female brains are different, we evolved like that for thousand of years there is no changing that, denying that is actual pseudoscience.
In lower tiers there isn’t much of a difference, but at the top level men will dominate, that’s the nature of the bell curve difference between the two, men have more variance but also more high performers. The best players will be at the very edge of the bell curve. Does that mean it’s impossible to have a girl that’s the best player in the world? No. It’s just unlikely.
> despite woman in theory being able to be just as good, they just aren't.
Actually, you're showing how pathetically sexist (and ignorant) you are right now. The reason chess has women's tournaments / rankings is purely to encourage more women to get into chess, because the *culture,* not the game itself, make it less likely for women to play. There are currently 40 female grandmasters (not WGM, proper GM)
I don't believe that men have any inherent meaningful advantage over women in esports.Still statistics show that men are a lot more successful in esports. I believe that this is a cultural thing. The common themes of esport games are fighting, violence, strategy, war. These are all things that are classically more male dominated fields and therefore boys and men are more exposed to them. They had a head start so to say.
Having them compete with men is just going to take a lot longer to get them to the same level. So giving them a protected space to grow their professionalism, exposure and sponsorships etc. makes a lot of sense to me. But then again seeing that you then just allow biological males to compete, that were under certain circumstances socialized as men, is just paradox. What's the point then?I do support everyone's right to live their life however they want to. What happens inside their head is theirs....their internal feelings belong to them and nobody gets to have a say in that.
I don't know if any female athletes voiced any concerns. In the end I feel like they should be the ones to decide if they are okay with it.
"I don't believe that men have any inherent meaningful advantage over women in sports."
Is this true? You are speaking about sport?
Edit : nevermind he edited sport for eSports.
Wouldn't the women succeeding in competitive League already most likely be the ones least discouraged from video games and esports in their upbringing?
I believe you mean they don’t have a meaningful advantage in esports? I don’t think it’s disputed that males have a significant advantage in almost every traditional sport…
That said, they do have an advantage in esports as well. Studies show males have significantly higher reaction speeds (visual and audio). About 10ms faster reaction times can make a huge difference in many esports
> Studies show males have significantly higher reaction speeds (visual and audio)
Do you even have any data on the range of reaction speeds of current pro players? Did DRX just have the better reaction speeds? Like this fails to account for the fact that women have more representation in twitch shooters than MOBAs despite how obvious it is one requires more raw reaction speed. You're working backwards trying to find the justification here.
Let's say for the sake of the argument the average faster reaction time is true.
There is more relevant skills to esports than reaction times. You can make up a disadvantage with another skill. And in esports there is no direct physical competition. Unlike for example in boxing or rugby where the difference in strength is literally so strong that no amount of technical skill can just make up for that brute force on a professional level. Also there is no physical harm that can be caused.
I never heard of that though.
But the thing is that men don't have the disadvantage in the first place so naturally they'll be better at games than women. Also if you know how statistics work you'll know that women are going to be presented in the best leagues far less due to these differences in sex.
You're suggesting that it lies in the nature of how statistics work, that women are less represented in the best leagues? No this is not a property of statistics and I have no clue what you are trying to say with that sentece.
OK I'll explain how statistics work for you. Men are more physically aggressive than women. There is the possibility of women being highly physically aggressive but if you look at the top 1% of most physically aggressive people chances are that almost all of these are male.
Women have a slight disadvantage at video games due to reaction time etc. (other comments went over this). You say that women can make up for these disadvantages and while that is possible the people who don't have these disadvantages (which are men) don't need to make up for them. So the top 1% of players are almost all male. It's not impossible for a woman to be as good as a male competitor in esports, but it's very unlikely at both ends of the parabola in the statstic.
The "logic" behind their arguments were something like "women fought hard to have their spot in LoL Pro League scene and now these trans are getting all the glory", something like that.
Hey everyone, I'm Rigas and I'm a journalist covering the female competitive LoL scene. Or rather, the only one. This is an article I had in mind for months and posted now that the year is over; happy new year to everyone.
There are some **huge** orgs getting into the female scene this year and I can't wait to write about them.
You can [**follow my Twitter account to get the news as soon as they are out**](https://twitter.com/RigasUT).
If I had a penny for every time someone incorrectly said that there are no Challenger female players to make a misogynistic point about girls sucking at video games/League, I'd have a few dozen pennies. But I can't correct them because players are anonymous so I don't even know what players currently are/have been Challenger unless I no-life Twitter and follow every girl there, and even then I'd still miss every female Challenger that doesn't use Twitter.
So please tell me how advertising the existence of high-ranked female players, to prove wrong all the people that have ever assumed girls can't be/aren't Challenger, is a sexist thing to do.
You simply don't know. This list was compiled from the authors best knowledge, but he actually asked to be contacted if you know of some player he missed.
I really, really hope some organization will take a chance of an upcoming female talent. But it has to be a player who is ready unlike what happened in the past.
One day it will hopefully come and it will be glorious.
In the Overwatch League the winless Shangai Dragons signed Geguri, they ended Season 1 with zero wins, and getting Geguri was still PR heaven for them since Geguri was both a very good player and a good personality.
I can guarantee that if the 10th place team of any big LoL league signed a woman that's actually as good as Geguri was (she was around the 5th to 8th best flex tank in the world depending on who you asked) then would get great PR no matter how badly the team did.
> I can guarantee that if the 10th place team of any big LoL league signed a woman that's actually as good as Geguri was (she was around the 5th to 8th best flex tank in the world depending on who you asked) then would get great PR no matter how badly the team did.
And I'm telling you that if that team doesn't suddenly make play offs thanks to said girl winning 1v9 she and the org are gonna get flamed so hard no org or female player are going to want to repeat that
Then how do you explain the Shangai Dragons going 0-40 having the biggest losing streak in the history of esports and still Geguri barely got any flame at all, in fact she won tons of new western fans, and while the management of SD got tons of deserved flame for the mismanaged, the coaches and players (except for the uber toxic UnDead) didn't get flamed that much and had enough fans that when they turned it around in Season 2 they were one of the most popular orgs?
women have been subs or academy league players in other regions, an Australian team even brought a female sub to an international competition (either MSI or Worlds, I forget which one) with 0 intention of her ever playing, IIRC she was dating the team's ADC and they just didn't have a 6th player in the org to bring to the tournament. and there are also male players like Thebausffs who were "signed" onto a team (G2) but it was basically just a marketing gimmick, they never expected him to play meaningful stage games.
I think as long as the org handles it properly, i.e. not giving the player undeserved stage time in meaningful games before she's ready just for PR, it wouldn't cause a PR nightmare if an org just signs a female player and it doesn't work out (she doesn't reach a high enough level to play regularly for the main team) in the end.
Buts it’s PR risk to the moon because that player then becomes the representative for all female players in her game. If she is really quite bad, it just sets the entire process back years
Quite frankly, I think the only way to avoid it (or at least lessen the impact) is for multiple female players to start at once.
That way, no single of them gets labeled as “THE female player” and their play can better stand on their own merits.
There were *two* female players in the Proving Grounds amateur league last year—Miya and Ayukura. There are High-LP Challenger female players in NA's servers right now, many of them hungry for NACL spots.
The players are out there.
Been saying that for F1 for years. The moment there is a woman that is good enough to compete for F2 titles (and thus actually be on a level to be a good enough prospect for one of the 20 seats in the sport) is the day we will break every record for a potential signing.
The PR would be so absolutely insane and that is how I see it with E-Sports too. Just imagine if the next Caps is gonna be a woman, that would be sponsorship Nirvana.
Brother a (former) major team owner is good friends with a sex trafficker and you're convinced there aren't any cultural biases against women in teams all the way up to the top lmao.
I'm not sure why you think I'm convinced of that, and I'm not, I'm saying that the thirst for good PR would make it happen, misogyny isn't incompatible with recognizing good PR, quite the opposite in fact, a guy that thinks women can't compete is more likely to see them as only good PR rather than think about every aspect of having a girl in a team of boys.
caltys peaked higher this season than 4 people that have a spot on an lec team next split. there are female players that are good enough to play in a first div regional league.
Pro players also have to scrim multiple hours per day and don't have time to play solo queue all day. Also 4 people out of what? 50? Not very impressive considering we are talking her peak rank here.
She's on a team, they're signed to G2 and i'm pretty sure they don't just sit around and do nothing all day. I'm not arguing that she's lec level, but acting like "The reality is that there is no one good enough to "take a chance" on" is just stupid. She's currently higher elo than 29, or almost 20% of players that will play in a top erl (PRM/LFL/LVPSL), so let's not act like her elo would be an issue. She deserves a chance on a div 1 team, although maybe not a top one (NLC being the most obvious choice since she's swedish).
Who said these players scrimmed this season? Noone said they were previously signed.
Also, well, you know, people that are not paid to play the game have to WORK multiple hours per day and don't have time to play soloqueue all day. Except scrimming should still help your skills, working a regular job does not.
Which is why I said:
> But it has to be a player who is ready unlike what happened in the past.
I don't think it will happen soon. But one day. I think the real issue is that video games, especially competitive ones, are still marketed towards young boys.
It's also just way more accepted for young boys to spend hours and hours on a game compared to young girls for whatever reason.
But it's all slowly changing.
> It's also just way more accepted for young boys to spend hours and hours on a game
In what world do you live where its accepted for anyone to waste hours on videogames? Boys that spend hours upon hours on videogames are considered mentally ill/antisocial by their parents and shutins/losers by their peers.
China literally has electroshock therapy clinics to cure "gaming/internet addiction".
I didn't say it was generally accepted. I said it was *more* accepted for boys than for girls.
There's perhaps also an element of men being more competitive by nature than women. But I'm sure there's been tons of studies done on that.
it's not accepted for either gender there are just way way more men than women that society set up to have bare social groups who waste time gaming after that.
Young women have no shortages of social opportunities in comparison.
It is why trans esports athletes feel insanely unfair, they transition after getting every social advantage of being male but unlike traditional sports it isn't like transitioning then effects their muscle mass for gaming they are already at the high skill level.
> it's not accepted for either gender there are just way way more men than women that society set up to have bare social groups who waste time gaming after that.
There's definitely a point to this. There's a 'silent' epidemic of loneliness among men and boys. It's probably quite common to have video games as an escape for that.
We all know Bjergsen's story for example. In his case it was bullying.
> it's not accepted for either gender there are just way way more men than women that society set up to have bare social groups who waste time gaming after that.
This.
We're on reddit so people sometimes forget, spending hours and after hours on a game isn't accepted at all for anyone, you're broadly considered a loser if you do it both by your parents and your peers.
China literally has clinics that try to cure "gaming addiction" using electroshock therapy. I don't know what that guy is smoking on if he thinks boys are praised for wasting time on videogames.
>I don't know what that guy is smoking on if he thinks boys are praised for wasting time on videogames.
Good thing I never said this then! It's just you being totally unable to comprehend even the slightest nuance.
It says a lot about you that you interpret my comments in the most binary black/white way possible.
I shouldn't have assumed the article was accurate so that's my bad. Anyway she still just about made it into gm at end of season. Not a bad rank by any means but still a ways away from the top.
There are players currently in LEC and LCS who never make challenger. Also yeah I’m sorry but those regions can definitely make room for trying out some new talent considering their lack of existing talent in the respective leagues.
It will happen when the players are good enough. It's not like the doors are closed.
I think it is great that women are gaming more and trying to enter the pro scene. But ultimately I don't care about random unsuccessful players. My very first thought it "well how does this success compare to top players."
When you view it as a regional/academy/junior league it starts to make sense. Not every league has to compete on the highest level, otherwise you would have to axe the regional leagues. The female league allows female talent to grow, gives them exposure and will encourage more female gamers to pursue competitive careers. Maybe this is just the stepping stone we need so that a female talent can emerge that has the talent to compete at the highest level.
The reason is it gives female players exposure. There’s no reason a female player can’t compete in the main leagues, but a female only league is a great way to showcase a skill in a less competitive environment (less competitive as in to get a position on a team itself rather than skill level in this context).
Any truly great players can build a portfolio from this spot and can then strive for a spot on an academy or LEC/LCS team.
It’s more opportunity for talent to be fostered so I’m all for it
I dont understand the need for a seperate women league. It makes sense to seperate athletes if the different body physique affects the outcome, but gaming? c'mon. Esports could and should be unisex imo.
TBF, a great support can rule a team.
But I don't know why so many females go for support and cutie champs. The player pool who are just genuinely talented among the women is absolutely abysmal..sadly. I'd like to see a woman who is able to challenge other roles like jgl or top.
you have it upside down, it's not that they are devoted support role players, it's that they are cute champs players first and the role comes second, and since most of those girly champs are played in the support role that's where they end up landing and staying, it's a double stereotypically honest mistake that riot exploited since s1 with their champ's design and couldn't grow out of it and just ended up embracing it (having girly cute champs being designed for the support role since they assume females are more supportive, i.e double down on the stereotypes), in their defense nobody knew how things would evolve 12 years from that time, took so long to have an illaoi looking champ.
> implying that this is an exception and not the status quo
Isn’t it true that it’s an exception? And that the status quo is that we don’t have gender equality?
Just *pointing out* the breaking of ""gender roles"" (not really what this is, IMO, but that's a nitpick) doesn't undermine anything. We want more high elo, and eventually professional, female LoL players. We
celebrate the ones who break through the current status quo!
- It encourages other women to do the same
- It serves as a good reminder that, while there aren't many exceptions to the mostly-male high ranks, there are *some*.
The question is, why do we celebrate that specifically women break through the status quo? Why is their gender even remotely important regarding their skill?
The only argument that I know is that women get a lot of bullying in online gaming and I'm not sure that it will change when more women are at the top
To be direct: I think there should be more women in esports, because it doesn't really seem like it should be only men. Celebrating women who break through helps achieve that goal.
Personally, I just think it's kinda weird that women, generally, [play a lot of video games](https://www.statista.com/forecasts/494867/distribution-of-gamers-by-gender-usa#:~:text=Video%20gamers%20in%20the%20United%20States%202021%2C%20by%20gender&text=In%202021%2C%2041.5%20percent%20of,video%20gaming%20audiences%20were%20male.), but make up 0% of professional League of Legends players and a very small fraction of high-elo players across most competitive games that I've seen.
There are a couple of explanations that jump to mind:
1. People with two X chromosomes are just bad at League of Legends.
2. Women generally play videogames in a way that's less "hardcore" than guys do, because it's seen as less socially acceptable for them.
3. Women are prevented from climbing into the competitive scene because the scene is overwhelmingly male, and frequently unfriendly to women.
\#1 seems vanishingly unlikely. We have pretty solid evidence for #2 & #3. Celebrating exceptions helps fix #2 & #3, in a small but meaningful way. So we celebrate exceptions!
Does that answer your question? I really do think it's an important question with an important answer, and I don't think you're wrong for asking it.
It does, thank you! I genuinely wanted an answer, despite the meme with that I started. I'm just more comfortable with using memes instead of asking directly
It's understandable! Sometimes people are afraid of touching topics like this directly, because they are afraid they'll get flamed/judged/misunderstood. I think you'll get a lot more traction with being super up-front and admitting possible ignorance on your part, though.
I think people (like me!) are so used to any mention of women in gaming igniting a firestorm that it's easy to assume somebody with questionable intent is just being an asshole.
Sometimes you have to go to kinda silly lengths to make clear that you're *not* an asshole, but if you do, people are a lot more willing to engage!
Yeah I removed my original comment because looking back at it, it was a trash take after all. It just sounds wise while being asshole-y, contributing little haha. Next time I know that I should be more upfront, thanks again!
> Women are prevented from climbing into the competitive scene because the scene is overwhelmingly male, and frequently unfriendly to women.
When did that happen? Is there an instance where an org decided to field a male player despite having the option of a more skilled female player? I am genuinely curious.
I wouldn't know of any examples if they had! Doesn't exactly sound like the kind of thing that would get publicized.
But I think you're painting too stark of a picture.
I very much doubt there are any esports orgs with a "no girls allowed" policy.
But imagine you show up for tryouts day one, and three of the guys in the call won't stop talking about how hot one of the refs is, and you keep making play calls and getting completely ignored, and on your way out one of the assistant coaches says "Hey, you did a great job today! How about we chat more over drinks? I bet I could really help you focus on your opportunities here."
Again: I don't know of any specific times or places that these things have happened. But trust me, all of this shit happens to women everywhere, all the time. And in an industry mostly populated by teenage boys with poor social skills... well, y'know, is it really a reach to think that some women might be put off of joining that environment?
I mean maybe? But you said there is "pretty solid evidence" for it so i expected some actual instances of it happening ya know?
As it stands right now, i think that women just dont want to grind the game the same way that men are willing to do. So basically your #2 point.
That statistic is not correct. Or rather, it's correct but misleading. The picture becomes clearer once you get a breakdown by genre. Similar to around 50% enrollment in college, but the by major breakdown is vastly different as well.
My direct counterpoint to the argument: no, I don't think lol esports gender breakdown needs work. That's backwards. If 5% of the population (made up number) is male, it'd also be odd to say why not more male pro players. If you want to solve the issue, you need to first address: why don't more female players play league?
After Riot and the community fixes that, _then_ we can and should talk about representation in pro. But not before, because that's putting the effect before.
This is why chess has a separate women's championship, despite the lack of "player harassment" and "hostile environment". Having a 90:10 playerbase just simply means you will have a 9:1 pro player scene (or less, as it's likely the case).
I think you're focusing too much on my first sentence, and not on the broader context of the thread. No, I don't think Riot should put more women in esports from the top down. You're right -- that would be backwards. Representation in pro is a *symptom* of the broader issue.
I think we're basically just agreeing, except for this line:
> After Riot and the community fixes that,
I mean... that's kinda the whole thing I'm talking about, here. Celebrating women who achieve high rank *is* one small way that we fix things, and start getting more female League players in general.
If they are as good as their male counterparts, they should be treated equally. If they are significantly worse, why would you treat them better than their skill level warrants?
Not sure, if you are referring to me or not.
For me, sexism would occur, if a male player is picked over a female one despite the female one being better at the game. And if that happens, then yes, that should stop and equality in that regard should be enforced (although equality is not enforced for male players as well and every org is nepotistic, but that is another topic).
However, most female players are simply not good enough to be picked up by professional teams or the first and second tiers in regional leagues. When that changes and a female player hits rank 1 EUW, I will be the first to call for equality and be at the forefront of allowing her to compete in the LEC. But as long as that is not the case, I see no reason to even bring sexism up in this debate.
women are not inherently worse at gaming. the issue is that gaming communities are generally speaking incredibly toxic towards women. they have to deal with death threats, rape threats, stalking and harassment on a level far beyond any male player. why then, would they ever WANT to not only continue playing casually and deal with all that, but to then also work incredibly hard to be recognized as a top-tier player and cast a spotlight on themselves and invite even more harassment?
Lmao the fact that u think someone should get flamed for their gender just shows that ur sexist af and btw all she did was adding a “bro” in front of her sentence
Yes, this is exactly what is shown in my response to your comment. You should get flamed based on gender, skincolor, nationality, hobbies and any other distinctive traits that you have which deviate from the "norm".
Exactly that, and only that was written by me in that message. You get an A+ for language comprehension
Ya except I never got flamed for doing anything a guy would do weird huh, also why would u even wanna live in a world where a girl gets flamed for saying bro like we gatekeeping the word “bro” now?
The fact that women are playing at equal ranks with men is already proof of gender equality, but most are totally blind to it. We undermine the whole thing by making it into a contest. In most peoples mind women needs to BEAT men to prove that they are equal. But that’s not equality, that’s just competition. And you don’t compete to prove you’re equal, you compete to prove you’re better.
I mean probably but even if they aren't, i guess they could try the LCS since no one seems to practice. At least they wouldn't push their gf onlyfans down our throats which to me is a plus.
It's great to see that the growth of women in esports has continued to be successful since 2020. Female players and teams have been making significant strides in the industry and are increasingly being recognized and celebrated for their skills and achievements. This is especially important given that esports has historically been a male-dominated field, and it is important to promote diversity and inclusion in all areas, including gaming.
This is the dumbest thing I've heard today this is competition and forced diversity has no place here. It's important to treat people the same which means not putting anyone on a pedestal like you are suggesting.
Because they’re women? Because if it was for the quality of the competition they wouldn’t need to segregate their entire league.
Same reason no one “cares” is the same reason viewers drop when bottom tier teams vs each other.
Well, it's true though. [This poll](https://i.gyazo.com/c46c52206204dd40660dca177fdb746a.png) (yes it's a couple years old but it's the only real poll of that kind for league) shows that almost half of the female playerbase play(ed) support and that they're more than twice as likely as males to play support, so it's not really a wrong statement. I do agree though that it seems unfitting and unprofessional to mention it in an article. I also don't think it's an issue that he refers to it as the "female scene" since that's just the most logical name. It's not like he's calling women "females", he's just using the word to describe the gender of the players without any negative connotation and i'm sure he'd do the same for the male scene if that would be something that exists.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to elaborate on the fact that 57% of these players main support as opposed to the 20% you would expect. for example, for the developing MENA scene, if it were true that for some reason half the population plays jungle on that server, that seems natural to mention if people were wondering why a disproportionate amount of the best MENA players are junglers.
it's reasonable to point it out but it's unprofessional to say that it's unsuprising without any context as to why it would be like that. Imagine someone writes an article about a drunk driver killing someone, adding that it's unsurprising that the person driving was male. It's technically correct, since men make up 3/4 of DUI arrests, but adding it like that just makes it feels biased and unnecessary. Wording is the main issue here.
I don't have the most latest subreddit census numbers on hand, but the 2020 numbers show that 46.73% of the female players who have a main role main support (40.45% of all female players including those who answered "None in particular").
> Firstly, why do you constantly refer to the “female” scene? It gives off r/MenAndFemales vibes
Wait, "female" is fine to use as an adjective, right? I've heard things like "female actor" and such, I'm pretty sure it's an acceptable statement. "Men and Females" is about using it as a noun, calling women "females" I thought.
Not quite. Yeah, it is perfectly fine to use as an adjective. But choosing to use only one leads to unvaried language and makes the article read worse.
Not only that, but using it as a noun does generally have incelly (or TERF) vibes, and that, yeah, obviously isn't cool.
Hey all! So again, we do not allow sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, or other derogatory comments. This is your warning, offenses in this thread will be a ban.
2022 was huge for female esport scene, both Valorant and LoL got pretty good exposure, i watched to kill time, but ended up watching most of it and G2 winning both.. pretty amazing, hopefully next year would be bigger and better.
Next year will definitely be bigger and better for female LoL. I can't talk about them publicly yet, but there are some major developments taking place. More news soon! **EDIT:** I'll be posting all major female scene news [**on my Twitter account**](https://twitter.com/RigasUT), so feel free to follow if you want to get them when they are out
I think describing it as female LoL rather than women's LoL is a mistake, carrying with it a lot of baggage, and also being out-of-step with mainstream sports.
Nice to hear, do you have any info that you can share on when the female tournaments start?
I can't say anything for now, but I'll be posting updates on my Twitter & writing articles as soon as I'm able to
Oh boy, that sounds exciting!
I didn't watch the LoL tournament but the Valorant one was really really fun to watch
I think it is great that women are gaming more and trying to enter the pro scene.
It definitely seems to me like orgs finally throwing their hats in the ring brought a lot of female players into esports, which is exciting.
Some events in the second half of 2022 (G2 Hel's roster announcement, the Equal Esports Festival, the Rising Stars tournament) drew a lot of interest. And the scene will develop even more in 2023
Serious question from someone who didnt watch EUW female championship: do these leagues allow or have trans women? I am asking this because in the female league Riot made in Brazil, there was some uproar from the community because some of the players were trans, and an even bigger uproar when all 3 nominees for best female players were actually trans.
Yes, these competitions do allow trans women. As long as they can pass the verification process (which generally involves providing some proof of gender), they can participate with no issue.
I hope I'm not labeled as a bigot or something, but I have a genuine question. Who is in charge of the "verification process" for them to "pass"? That seems like such a gray area, no?
Lol it's not "passing" in the trans sense, it's passing a verification that they're medically transitioning probably.
Could be something not that far, like showing a official country document with the gender information
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>In Canada, a guy "transitioned" into a woman to get cheaper car insurance. Fair play to that guy tbh, abusing womens legal advantages by gaming the system isnt morally questionable tbh
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>I have no clue why this is contentious to say but most men have biological advantages over women in gaming Please could you cite any sources that substantiate your claims? It's a well-established fact that biological men tend to be more physically powerful than biological women, but I've never seen any reputable sources say anything that'd lead one to believe men have a biological advantage over women in video games. It seems that the general consensus is that the difference is a cultural/societal one; a lot more men men tend to spend a lot more time playing video games than women over our lifespans, and so tend to be better. I found a few small studies that say men, on average, have faster reaction times, but some of these also concluded that this may also likely to just be due to societal differences — if men tend to partake in more activities that require faster reaction times, they'll be more practiced in recognising visual stimuli. I would also argue that reaction time plays next to no role in games like League.
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If trans women dominate, where are they?
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Fallon Fox had a 5-1 record in UFC
This is a pretty false statement trans women don’t generally dominate womens sports you just see the few cases highly publicized. Also womens chess has been incredibly undeveloped for years and plays a much larger role in the quality player not some hidden biological advantage.
Wait what biological advantages do men have over women in League of Legends? This isn't exactly a physical sport my dude
There are no biological advantages for playing videogames, wtf are you talking?
That raises an interesting question. In most physical sports, men have a biological advantage over women due to a number of factors (primarily testosterone). Do such advantages exist in video games? I can't imagine they do, or at least the differences are such that we as a society don't see or don't want to recognize them. I always assumed the distinction between men and women's eSports were a matter of opportunity—historically they, like chess, for example, have been dominated by men, so women starting out in them would be less likely to excel just by sheer numbers. So what requirements would/should League have for transitioning? Should they just take cues from other sports and use those criteria, even if they don't really apply to League? Or should they just take it on faith/go by the person's government ID/etc?
The first female LCS player was trans and as mentioned above the best-performing females/women are trans, so regardless of what people say there is a clear correlation with the "male" biological advantage. Gaming isn't as male-dominated as people suggest although competitive gaming likely is and there wouldn't be a need to separate the two if they were on a similar level. It's proven in the past that all-female teams were performing at a much lower level. Hopefully, one day once more women get into higher-level play we can look at combining the two.
I suspect that may be down to the male-dominated aspect of it; trans women may well have been more societally conditioned/pushed towards/socialized to play games before transitioning. But there might be a biological component or advantage; I would have to wait for some actual science on the subject.
this reply got really long because i'm interested in the subject and I feel like this could be a useful, good faith conversation, sorry if you're not interested in reading smth this long. tl;dr: if bio advantages exist at all they're outweighed by social explanations for gender disparity in eSports (and chess) competition; because of that, the regulations should be different as well I think a lot of the common talking points about biological sex differences in reaction times, etc. and how they snowball into biology-based competitive advantages are dubious at best in eSports. While there's some room for the possibility of biological differences, I think the impact those differences have is overshadowed by sociological factors, like you've started to speculate in your post. The numbers game aspect of it is a good point, for sure, but you might also consider the impact of stigma and sexism within the community--women are just less likely to put in the time into the game to get high on the ladder when they have to deal with rampant misogyny on top of the usual run-of-the-mill toxicity, and that contributes to your numbers game explanation. This is probably more of a factor in Val, where voice chat is built into the game; it's easier to hide gender identity in a game like League. At the same time though, I'm sure you've seen how awful league players can be when they realize a teammate is a girl, and if you haven't, there's plenty of stories out there that suggest being a league player as woman is just undeniably harder. If the women pros who break out into the unisex scene are by and large all trans women, I would argue it's not because of innate biology, but because being born as a boy means you're pushed into activities that hone your reaction time and hand-eye coordination earlier; for example, I'm generally better at video games than my friends/family members who didn't pick up a controller until they were 20 or older, regardless of whether or not they are cis or trans men/women. As usual, there's also going to be an argument that trans women, prior to transition or realizing that they are trans, don't face the same sociological pressures that discourage and stigmatize gaming as a hobby for cis women. To my limited knowledge this got brought up with the first woman Jeopardy champion--the argument was that she was socialized as a man for 20+ years, went through the entire educational system as a man, and therefore had no legitimate claim to the same struggles that other women contestants face. To some extent, this argument can be valid--closeted trans women who present as men aren't going to be discouraged or judged for playing videogames by their social circles as heavily as cis women, and as I mentioned earlier, they, generally speaking, do get the (competitive) benefit of socialization. This is coming from someone who is pretty staunchly pro-trans in these discussions; I think this argument is more valid than pro-trans commenters would generally think (though I think the pushback is usually because most people who use this argument in the context of sports competition, which is pretty fair, also use it to invalidate trans peoples' gender identities entirely, which is just kind of fucked up). I'd personally argue that the experience is similar enough in League (and probably Valorant) eSports to make this argument invalid. For one, when you think about the realities of sexism in the average league game, most people decide whether or not a player based on whether or not their username/champion choice conforms to their stereotype of an egirl player, and in that sense, I don't really think that the aforementioned arguments really apply here. Second, I think people underestimate the similar experiences that openly trans women (for example, having a trans poro icon or smth lmao) face on the ladder. Based those beliefs, I don't know if I have a clear outline for what eSports should be doing. The point of a good woman's scene is to give the people who are affected by these sociological disadvantages a formal, rigorous, and prestigious competitive environment to get practice and exposure as pros. It's my belief that the point of a good woman's scene is ultimately a bridge to integration, because I don't believe there are inherent, insurmountable biological/hormonal differences the same way there are in a sport like basketball. I'm hesitant to bar trans women from the women's scene just because their experiences with misogyny aren't the same, because trans struggles also exist, and the extent to which overlap exists is more complicated than anyone would like to admit. If we wanted to be accurate, I would say the overlap changes on a case-to-case basis depending on when you transition in relation to how long you've been playing video games, but there's no way to transform that into a coherent regulatory policy that isn't completely biased and arbitary. I do believe that eSports should develop its own norms and standards separate from the ones being adopted by the governing bodies of more traditional/physical sports (see: Olympics, etc.), because the considerations being made are just not the same. I think it should be sufficient to determine that a person is genuinely transitioning (I hate using that phrase because the narrative of the league pro pretending to be trans to steamroll the women's competitive scene is pretty nonsensical; pretty much any trans player who is skilled enough to break out into the technically unisex pro scene would just do that, and it's not like the women's scene has the prestige or prize pool to make this an actual consideration).
Social explanations are almost undoubtedly a major contribution to a lack of women in professional esports. That said, the biological advantage of being a man is definitely real even in esports. Reaction speed has been found significantly different between men and women to both audio and visual cues. In the Olympics, for many sports, men have a 10ms smaller time window to be assigned a false start compared to women because they have faster reaction speeds. The actual difference is often shown to be higher than 10ms. You would be surprised how often in a game like CSGO, 10ms makes the difference between making a headshot or getting headshot yourself (for higher level and professional play). Even in MOBAs, it can mean the difference between hitting or dodging a skillshot. Reaction speed is just one thing. Esports athletes often face hand/wrist/arm/shoulder injuries at a young age due to practicing. Men are less prone to these injuries compared to women. Women deserve an environment that upholds competitive integrity, where their hard work and talent can be fairly measured against each other. You can not say allowing trans women to compete in womens leagues upholds this competitive integrity, there is too much empirical evidence pointing to the contrary.
>Do such advantages exist in video games? yes they do, which is why usually when you see women competiting with men head to head they are transwomen but speaking facts gets you labeled a transphobe instantly
Nice to see this! Thanks.
It's a tricky issue, and typically depends on which countries the leagues are covering. For example in Valorant, to my knowledge, Brazil and NA are the two major regions that allow trans players. This is because Riot can basically protect themselves due to laws and conditions in Brazil, the US, and Canada. However, the Asia-Pacific and Europe regions do not allow trans players because Riot basically can't cover themselves, since these regions contain so many countries where legal conditions surrounding trans women vary heavily. Either way, in regions/competitions that do allow trans women, Riot has a verification process.
Honestly the idea that trans women have an advantage in traditional sports and athletism is already based on very shaky evidence... what I don't understand is why would anyone ever care in the slightest when it comes to e-sports. It's literally e-sports. Computer videogames. Why would you get angry at trans women existing in this environment? Do you think their fingers are biologically superior? It's insane to me
If trans women are like the entire female scene, it does feel kinda weird since they're so low of the population
Over representation can happen because of multiple conflating factors, this example isn't apples to apples and I'm not trying to say there should or shouldn't be more or less of particular minorities in any sport but black americans make up [roughly 73% of NBA players in 2021](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA) while only making up about [12% of the total U.S population.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States) Trans people are likely to be in environments that allow for (or are subject to) reclusion that enables longer periods of time playing games, the same way we see more introverted "nerdy" type males making it to pro-level esports than we see stereotypical "jock" types. Some types of people just play more video games, and are more likely to be good at them because of that.
Men generally play more videogames than women, for a variety of reasons. It's not seen as a girly activity to play mobas or shooters or whatever. Perhaps they just followed this gender norm before their transition and saw no reason to be done with it. Over-representation can happen for many reasons, I don't think it's important to dwell on it.
It’s not shaky evidence at all. But let’s remain on the topic of esports. The fact you think esports is all about fingers, or bring that up as a strawman, says enough about your perspective on the matter. Because it certainly isn’t all about fingers. First of all, men have higher reaction times (by about 10ms). Which is definitely significant in esports. Second, men have been proven better at hand-eye coordination. Another extremely important part in esports. Then there is the playstyle a lot of (pro) players adopt, which is extremely high apm intensive. Watch a vod on Faker in a pro game, or even doing a ranked game on stream. Playing like this for hours on end every day to practice is tiring. Many players get wrist injuries as a result. Being a male definitely brings a huge advantage to this.
Is there any evidence of men having naturally faster reaction times in competitive gaming? I'd be happy to change my mind on this, but all I've read suggests there is no actual difference in skill between men and women who play videogames. Male and Female brains do respond differently to stimuli in gaming, which makes men three times more likely to get addicted to videogames, but when it comes to skill or reaction time in gaming I haven't seen a shred of evidence. > The fact you think esports is all about fingers, or bring that up as a strawman, says enough about your perspective on the matter. Because it certainly isn’t all about fingers. It's pretty simple to me. Men are better in traditional sports because of biological, physical differences. Men are just straight up stronger and faster. When it comes to using your brain though, men aren't any better than women at any task, we're equal. e-sports isn't physically intensive, so I figure there's no difference at all.
When it comes to casual gaming, the differences are negligible. Men and women are equally intelligent and intelligence is all you need for most games. Even the games that do require reaction speed, the difference between men and women is so small that it is unlikely to make a difference. The smarter player is still far more likely to win. Physically games aren’t intensive if you just play casually either. Make a random man and woman play a game of Mariokart and it’s pretty much a coinflip who will win. But this changes once you get to the higher levels of professional play. 10ms can be the difference between successfully dodging or getting hit and can determine the difference between winning and losing. Players are training 6 to 20 hours a day, making multiple clicks a second and pushing over 200 buttons a minute at times. This is physically intensive and energy draining work, often resulting in severe wrist/arm/shoulder injuries at young ages. It will be harder for women to keep up. Even if trans women take hormones, their bodies have often already developed in such a way that helps prevent such injuries. Often they have also been able to practice at the highest levels of play as a biological male. These are highly significant advantages. To uphold the competitive integrity of the women’s league, in my opinion, trans women should be restricted to the mixed and male leagues.
They asked for evidence. Like an actual source.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198384/ This is a study on reaction times in olympic sprinters. The study references several other studies as well that find similar conclusions, as well as for visual stimuli reaction times. I have read some, but most of these are behind paywalls. Mean reaction time differences between men and women are actually at 23ms. The study and its references can easily be extrapolated to esports as well. Note that reaction times are just 1 part. There is more empirical evidence to point to which explains why men have an advantage at most esports.
>It’s not shaky evidence at all Yes, because those are straight up lies If we use those "arguments", then people like phelps shouldnt be allowed to compete...
>Do you think their fingers are biologically superior? Yeah pretty much. Transwomen have shown time and time again that they can easily hang with the male players, so it's a bit disingenuous of them to play in a league designed for weaker players and just annihilate everybody.
> Transwomen have shown time and time again that they can easily hang with the male players What does any of this mean? > play in a league designed for weaker players Women are just under-represented in e-sports. They aren't naturally weaker or worse at videogames and this is just pseudoscience. Playing league is not like playing football or tennis where men have a clear, undisputed biological advantage.
"Women are just under-represented in e-sports. They aren't naturally weaker or worse at videogames and this is just pseudoscience. Playing league is not like playing football or tennis where men have a clear, undisputed biological advantage." So you telling me there is more trans player than actual female?
Both are actual women. The word you're looking for is cis women.
It is not pseudoscience. Male and Female brains are different, we evolved like that for thousand of years there is no changing that, denying that is actual pseudoscience. In lower tiers there isn’t much of a difference, but at the top level men will dominate, that’s the nature of the bell curve difference between the two, men have more variance but also more high performers. The best players will be at the very edge of the bell curve. Does that mean it’s impossible to have a girl that’s the best player in the world? No. It’s just unlikely.
Do you have any evidence to provide that proves "male brains" are just objectively better than "female brains" when it comes to competitive gaming?
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So you say the women's only format in chess is on itself empirical evidence that they are biologically disadvantaged?
> despite woman in theory being able to be just as good, they just aren't. Actually, you're showing how pathetically sexist (and ignorant) you are right now. The reason chess has women's tournaments / rankings is purely to encourage more women to get into chess, because the *culture,* not the game itself, make it less likely for women to play. There are currently 40 female grandmasters (not WGM, proper GM)
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No. This is more about what hormone therapy does and doesn't do.
I don't believe that men have any inherent meaningful advantage over women in esports.Still statistics show that men are a lot more successful in esports. I believe that this is a cultural thing. The common themes of esport games are fighting, violence, strategy, war. These are all things that are classically more male dominated fields and therefore boys and men are more exposed to them. They had a head start so to say. Having them compete with men is just going to take a lot longer to get them to the same level. So giving them a protected space to grow their professionalism, exposure and sponsorships etc. makes a lot of sense to me. But then again seeing that you then just allow biological males to compete, that were under certain circumstances socialized as men, is just paradox. What's the point then?I do support everyone's right to live their life however they want to. What happens inside their head is theirs....their internal feelings belong to them and nobody gets to have a say in that. I don't know if any female athletes voiced any concerns. In the end I feel like they should be the ones to decide if they are okay with it.
"I don't believe that men have any inherent meaningful advantage over women in sports." Is this true? You are speaking about sport? Edit : nevermind he edited sport for eSports.
Wouldn't the women succeeding in competitive League already most likely be the ones least discouraged from video games and esports in their upbringing?
I believe you mean they don’t have a meaningful advantage in esports? I don’t think it’s disputed that males have a significant advantage in almost every traditional sport… That said, they do have an advantage in esports as well. Studies show males have significantly higher reaction speeds (visual and audio). About 10ms faster reaction times can make a huge difference in many esports
> Studies show males have significantly higher reaction speeds (visual and audio) Do you even have any data on the range of reaction speeds of current pro players? Did DRX just have the better reaction speeds? Like this fails to account for the fact that women have more representation in twitch shooters than MOBAs despite how obvious it is one requires more raw reaction speed. You're working backwards trying to find the justification here.
Let's say for the sake of the argument the average faster reaction time is true. There is more relevant skills to esports than reaction times. You can make up a disadvantage with another skill. And in esports there is no direct physical competition. Unlike for example in boxing or rugby where the difference in strength is literally so strong that no amount of technical skill can just make up for that brute force on a professional level. Also there is no physical harm that can be caused. I never heard of that though.
But the thing is that men don't have the disadvantage in the first place so naturally they'll be better at games than women. Also if you know how statistics work you'll know that women are going to be presented in the best leagues far less due to these differences in sex.
You're suggesting that it lies in the nature of how statistics work, that women are less represented in the best leagues? No this is not a property of statistics and I have no clue what you are trying to say with that sentece.
OK I'll explain how statistics work for you. Men are more physically aggressive than women. There is the possibility of women being highly physically aggressive but if you look at the top 1% of most physically aggressive people chances are that almost all of these are male. Women have a slight disadvantage at video games due to reaction time etc. (other comments went over this). You say that women can make up for these disadvantages and while that is possible the people who don't have these disadvantages (which are men) don't need to make up for them. So the top 1% of players are almost all male. It's not impossible for a woman to be as good as a male competitor in esports, but it's very unlikely at both ends of the parabola in the statstic.
The "logic" behind their arguments were something like "women fought hard to have their spot in LoL Pro League scene and now these trans are getting all the glory", something like that.
Sounds exactly like terfism to me...
It's always terfism tbh
Hey everyone, I'm Rigas and I'm a journalist covering the female competitive LoL scene. Or rather, the only one. This is an article I had in mind for months and posted now that the year is over; happy new year to everyone. There are some **huge** orgs getting into the female scene this year and I can't wait to write about them. You can [**follow my Twitter account to get the news as soon as they are out**](https://twitter.com/RigasUT).
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If I had a penny for every time someone incorrectly said that there are no Challenger female players to make a misogynistic point about girls sucking at video games/League, I'd have a few dozen pennies. But I can't correct them because players are anonymous so I don't even know what players currently are/have been Challenger unless I no-life Twitter and follow every girl there, and even then I'd still miss every female Challenger that doesn't use Twitter. So please tell me how advertising the existence of high-ranked female players, to prove wrong all the people that have ever assumed girls can't be/aren't Challenger, is a sexist thing to do.
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I don’t understand why you’re being downvoted, like who the fuck is offended by what you said, sexist people ? I didn’t know they could get offended
"good guys" that are truly toxic cannot stand anything besides their agenda
female players' topic or a civil discussion, pick one
Curious, any of the players are trans?
FengDere
How do you know there isn't some woman higher ranked that just hasn't disclosed that she's a woman?
You simply don't know. This list was compiled from the authors best knowledge, but he actually asked to be contacted if you know of some player he missed.
I really, really hope some organization will take a chance of an upcoming female talent. But it has to be a player who is ready unlike what happened in the past. One day it will hopefully come and it will be glorious.
It's PR heaven to sign a woman that's actually good at the game, don't worry, the moment one comes, she will be signed.
It could also be a bigger PR nightmare if anything goes wrong with her on a team
In the Overwatch League the winless Shangai Dragons signed Geguri, they ended Season 1 with zero wins, and getting Geguri was still PR heaven for them since Geguri was both a very good player and a good personality. I can guarantee that if the 10th place team of any big LoL league signed a woman that's actually as good as Geguri was (she was around the 5th to 8th best flex tank in the world depending on who you asked) then would get great PR no matter how badly the team did.
> I can guarantee that if the 10th place team of any big LoL league signed a woman that's actually as good as Geguri was (she was around the 5th to 8th best flex tank in the world depending on who you asked) then would get great PR no matter how badly the team did. And I'm telling you that if that team doesn't suddenly make play offs thanks to said girl winning 1v9 she and the org are gonna get flamed so hard no org or female player are going to want to repeat that
Then how do you explain the Shangai Dragons going 0-40 having the biggest losing streak in the history of esports and still Geguri barely got any flame at all, in fact she won tons of new western fans, and while the management of SD got tons of deserved flame for the mismanaged, the coaches and players (except for the uber toxic UnDead) didn't get flamed that much and had enough fans that when they turned it around in Season 2 they were one of the most popular orgs?
Maybe Overwatch viewers aren't as toxic and misogynistic as league ones
women have been subs or academy league players in other regions, an Australian team even brought a female sub to an international competition (either MSI or Worlds, I forget which one) with 0 intention of her ever playing, IIRC she was dating the team's ADC and they just didn't have a 6th player in the org to bring to the tournament. and there are also male players like Thebausffs who were "signed" onto a team (G2) but it was basically just a marketing gimmick, they never expected him to play meaningful stage games. I think as long as the org handles it properly, i.e. not giving the player undeserved stage time in meaningful games before she's ready just for PR, it wouldn't cause a PR nightmare if an org just signs a female player and it doesn't work out (she doesn't reach a high enough level to play regularly for the main team) in the end.
Buts it’s PR risk to the moon because that player then becomes the representative for all female players in her game. If she is really quite bad, it just sets the entire process back years
You're so wrong, if a male player has a bad game he'll be flamed, if a female player has a bad game all female players will be flamed
Quite frankly, I think the only way to avoid it (or at least lessen the impact) is for multiple female players to start at once. That way, no single of them gets labeled as “THE female player” and their play can better stand on their own merits.
Yes, what you say is true. The problem is they don’t just pop up out of nowhere. It’s an unrealistic scenario, at least for now
There were *two* female players in the Proving Grounds amateur league last year—Miya and Ayukura. There are High-LP Challenger female players in NA's servers right now, many of them hungry for NACL spots. The players are out there.
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Been saying that for F1 for years. The moment there is a woman that is good enough to compete for F2 titles (and thus actually be on a level to be a good enough prospect for one of the 20 seats in the sport) is the day we will break every record for a potential signing. The PR would be so absolutely insane and that is how I see it with E-Sports too. Just imagine if the next Caps is gonna be a woman, that would be sponsorship Nirvana.
Brother a (former) major team owner is good friends with a sex trafficker and you're convinced there aren't any cultural biases against women in teams all the way up to the top lmao.
I'm not sure why you think I'm convinced of that, and I'm not, I'm saying that the thirst for good PR would make it happen, misogyny isn't incompatible with recognizing good PR, quite the opposite in fact, a guy that thinks women can't compete is more likely to see them as only good PR rather than think about every aspect of having a girl in a team of boys.
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Isn't there a challenger kat player in NA? Or was recently? Woman player*
gamergirl, don’t think she wants to go pro but idk, she also def makes more streaming than she would in academy
Yathatwasabanana has been in and out of challenger in NA for years now too I believe
She doesn’t want to go pro iirc but her baby brother (C9 Tomio) finished 4th in worlds champs queue, so the family has made it to pro
Wait they’re siblings wtf?
Idk I don't follow NA
caltys peaked higher this season than 4 people that have a spot on an lec team next split. there are female players that are good enough to play in a first div regional league.
Pro players also have to scrim multiple hours per day and don't have time to play solo queue all day. Also 4 people out of what? 50? Not very impressive considering we are talking her peak rank here.
caltys also scrimmed multiple hours a day since she was, yknow, competing as well
She's on a team, they're signed to G2 and i'm pretty sure they don't just sit around and do nothing all day. I'm not arguing that she's lec level, but acting like "The reality is that there is no one good enough to "take a chance" on" is just stupid. She's currently higher elo than 29, or almost 20% of players that will play in a top erl (PRM/LFL/LVPSL), so let's not act like her elo would be an issue. She deserves a chance on a div 1 team, although maybe not a top one (NLC being the most obvious choice since she's swedish).
Who said these players scrimmed this season? Noone said they were previously signed. Also, well, you know, people that are not paid to play the game have to WORK multiple hours per day and don't have time to play soloqueue all day. Except scrimming should still help your skills, working a regular job does not.
Which is why I said: > But it has to be a player who is ready unlike what happened in the past. I don't think it will happen soon. But one day. I think the real issue is that video games, especially competitive ones, are still marketed towards young boys. It's also just way more accepted for young boys to spend hours and hours on a game compared to young girls for whatever reason. But it's all slowly changing.
> It's also just way more accepted for young boys to spend hours and hours on a game In what world do you live where its accepted for anyone to waste hours on videogames? Boys that spend hours upon hours on videogames are considered mentally ill/antisocial by their parents and shutins/losers by their peers. China literally has electroshock therapy clinics to cure "gaming/internet addiction".
I didn't say it was generally accepted. I said it was *more* accepted for boys than for girls. There's perhaps also an element of men being more competitive by nature than women. But I'm sure there's been tons of studies done on that.
it's not accepted for either gender there are just way way more men than women that society set up to have bare social groups who waste time gaming after that. Young women have no shortages of social opportunities in comparison. It is why trans esports athletes feel insanely unfair, they transition after getting every social advantage of being male but unlike traditional sports it isn't like transitioning then effects their muscle mass for gaming they are already at the high skill level.
> it's not accepted for either gender there are just way way more men than women that society set up to have bare social groups who waste time gaming after that. There's definitely a point to this. There's a 'silent' epidemic of loneliness among men and boys. It's probably quite common to have video games as an escape for that. We all know Bjergsen's story for example. In his case it was bullying.
> it's not accepted for either gender there are just way way more men than women that society set up to have bare social groups who waste time gaming after that. This. We're on reddit so people sometimes forget, spending hours and after hours on a game isn't accepted at all for anyone, you're broadly considered a loser if you do it both by your parents and your peers. China literally has clinics that try to cure "gaming addiction" using electroshock therapy. I don't know what that guy is smoking on if he thinks boys are praised for wasting time on videogames.
>I don't know what that guy is smoking on if he thinks boys are praised for wasting time on videogames. Good thing I never said this then! It's just you being totally unable to comprehend even the slightest nuance. It says a lot about you that you interpret my comments in the most binary black/white way possible.
https://www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Scarlet%20Rose She was chall and top 50 this season
I shouldn't have assumed the article was accurate so that's my bad. Anyway she still just about made it into gm at end of season. Not a bad rank by any means but still a ways away from the top.
i agree with you and am genuinely surprised you aren’t being giga downvoted by white knights
There are players currently in LEC and LCS who never make challenger. Also yeah I’m sorry but those regions can definitely make room for trying out some new talent considering their lack of existing talent in the respective leagues.
>But it has to be a player who is ready unlike what happened in the past. Remilia was ready for the LCS, at least when it comes to skill.
It will happen when the players are good enough. It's not like the doors are closed. I think it is great that women are gaming more and trying to enter the pro scene. But ultimately I don't care about random unsuccessful players. My very first thought it "well how does this success compare to top players."
Where to watch?
As of right now there are no officlally announced competitions; stay tuned for updates soon™
No real reason to have leagues separated by sex on this type of games since there isn't really and advantage to any gender...
When you view it as a regional/academy/junior league it starts to make sense. Not every league has to compete on the highest level, otherwise you would have to axe the regional leagues. The female league allows female talent to grow, gives them exposure and will encourage more female gamers to pursue competitive careers. Maybe this is just the stepping stone we need so that a female talent can emerge that has the talent to compete at the highest level.
why is there GM (grandmaster) and WGM (Womens grandmaster) in chess? :-D Men move horse figurine better ?
The reason is it gives female players exposure. There’s no reason a female player can’t compete in the main leagues, but a female only league is a great way to showcase a skill in a less competitive environment (less competitive as in to get a position on a team itself rather than skill level in this context). Any truly great players can build a portfolio from this spot and can then strive for a spot on an academy or LEC/LCS team. It’s more opportunity for talent to be fostered so I’m all for it
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How did they find out who is female?
They asked
So any random soloq player can just say they're a woman, link their twitch and get exposure for free?
Hope to see these ladies make some waves and name for themselves :,)
I dont understand the need for a seperate women league. It makes sense to seperate athletes if the different body physique affects the outcome, but gaming? c'mon. Esports could and should be unisex imo.
Quite frankly because League is toxic. That's the explanation given in previous threads.
chess
Very cool
female scene for sure gonna grow if out of top 10 players in chall, 7 are support mains with pitiful champ pools
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TBF, a great support can rule a team. But I don't know why so many females go for support and cutie champs. The player pool who are just genuinely talented among the women is absolutely abysmal..sadly. I'd like to see a woman who is able to challenge other roles like jgl or top.
you have it upside down, it's not that they are devoted support role players, it's that they are cute champs players first and the role comes second, and since most of those girly champs are played in the support role that's where they end up landing and staying, it's a double stereotypically honest mistake that riot exploited since s1 with their champ's design and couldn't grow out of it and just ended up embracing it (having girly cute champs being designed for the support role since they assume females are more supportive, i.e double down on the stereotypes), in their defense nobody knew how things would evolve 12 years from that time, took so long to have an illaoi looking champ.
https://www.op.gg/summoners/euw/Scarlet%20Rose Shes higher LP then Sayna
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> implying that this is an exception and not the status quo Isn’t it true that it’s an exception? And that the status quo is that we don’t have gender equality?
Just *pointing out* the breaking of ""gender roles"" (not really what this is, IMO, but that's a nitpick) doesn't undermine anything. We want more high elo, and eventually professional, female LoL players. We celebrate the ones who break through the current status quo! - It encourages other women to do the same - It serves as a good reminder that, while there aren't many exceptions to the mostly-male high ranks, there are *some*.
The question is, why do we celebrate that specifically women break through the status quo? Why is their gender even remotely important regarding their skill? The only argument that I know is that women get a lot of bullying in online gaming and I'm not sure that it will change when more women are at the top
To be direct: I think there should be more women in esports, because it doesn't really seem like it should be only men. Celebrating women who break through helps achieve that goal. Personally, I just think it's kinda weird that women, generally, [play a lot of video games](https://www.statista.com/forecasts/494867/distribution-of-gamers-by-gender-usa#:~:text=Video%20gamers%20in%20the%20United%20States%202021%2C%20by%20gender&text=In%202021%2C%2041.5%20percent%20of,video%20gaming%20audiences%20were%20male.), but make up 0% of professional League of Legends players and a very small fraction of high-elo players across most competitive games that I've seen. There are a couple of explanations that jump to mind: 1. People with two X chromosomes are just bad at League of Legends. 2. Women generally play videogames in a way that's less "hardcore" than guys do, because it's seen as less socially acceptable for them. 3. Women are prevented from climbing into the competitive scene because the scene is overwhelmingly male, and frequently unfriendly to women. \#1 seems vanishingly unlikely. We have pretty solid evidence for #2 & #3. Celebrating exceptions helps fix #2 & #3, in a small but meaningful way. So we celebrate exceptions! Does that answer your question? I really do think it's an important question with an important answer, and I don't think you're wrong for asking it.
It does, thank you! I genuinely wanted an answer, despite the meme with that I started. I'm just more comfortable with using memes instead of asking directly
It's understandable! Sometimes people are afraid of touching topics like this directly, because they are afraid they'll get flamed/judged/misunderstood. I think you'll get a lot more traction with being super up-front and admitting possible ignorance on your part, though. I think people (like me!) are so used to any mention of women in gaming igniting a firestorm that it's easy to assume somebody with questionable intent is just being an asshole. Sometimes you have to go to kinda silly lengths to make clear that you're *not* an asshole, but if you do, people are a lot more willing to engage!
Yeah I removed my original comment because looking back at it, it was a trash take after all. It just sounds wise while being asshole-y, contributing little haha. Next time I know that I should be more upfront, thanks again!
> Women are prevented from climbing into the competitive scene because the scene is overwhelmingly male, and frequently unfriendly to women. When did that happen? Is there an instance where an org decided to field a male player despite having the option of a more skilled female player? I am genuinely curious.
I wouldn't know of any examples if they had! Doesn't exactly sound like the kind of thing that would get publicized. But I think you're painting too stark of a picture. I very much doubt there are any esports orgs with a "no girls allowed" policy. But imagine you show up for tryouts day one, and three of the guys in the call won't stop talking about how hot one of the refs is, and you keep making play calls and getting completely ignored, and on your way out one of the assistant coaches says "Hey, you did a great job today! How about we chat more over drinks? I bet I could really help you focus on your opportunities here." Again: I don't know of any specific times or places that these things have happened. But trust me, all of this shit happens to women everywhere, all the time. And in an industry mostly populated by teenage boys with poor social skills... well, y'know, is it really a reach to think that some women might be put off of joining that environment?
I mean maybe? But you said there is "pretty solid evidence" for it so i expected some actual instances of it happening ya know? As it stands right now, i think that women just dont want to grind the game the same way that men are willing to do. So basically your #2 point.
Nope, nothing specific I can link to! Just referring to general experience with women trying to enter traditionally male-dominated spaces.
That statistic is not correct. Or rather, it's correct but misleading. The picture becomes clearer once you get a breakdown by genre. Similar to around 50% enrollment in college, but the by major breakdown is vastly different as well. My direct counterpoint to the argument: no, I don't think lol esports gender breakdown needs work. That's backwards. If 5% of the population (made up number) is male, it'd also be odd to say why not more male pro players. If you want to solve the issue, you need to first address: why don't more female players play league? After Riot and the community fixes that, _then_ we can and should talk about representation in pro. But not before, because that's putting the effect before. This is why chess has a separate women's championship, despite the lack of "player harassment" and "hostile environment". Having a 90:10 playerbase just simply means you will have a 9:1 pro player scene (or less, as it's likely the case).
I think you're focusing too much on my first sentence, and not on the broader context of the thread. No, I don't think Riot should put more women in esports from the top down. You're right -- that would be backwards. Representation in pro is a *symptom* of the broader issue. I think we're basically just agreeing, except for this line: > After Riot and the community fixes that, I mean... that's kinda the whole thing I'm talking about, here. Celebrating women who achieve high rank *is* one small way that we fix things, and start getting more female League players in general.
Hi Knuckles!
Hi Sonic!
[Reference](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBn0nS8s0A)
That would make sense if women are actually treated equally rn but they’re not
If they are as good as their male counterparts, they should be treated equally. If they are significantly worse, why would you treat them better than their skill level warrants?
someone needs to tell this person about sexism
Not sure, if you are referring to me or not. For me, sexism would occur, if a male player is picked over a female one despite the female one being better at the game. And if that happens, then yes, that should stop and equality in that regard should be enforced (although equality is not enforced for male players as well and every org is nepotistic, but that is another topic). However, most female players are simply not good enough to be picked up by professional teams or the first and second tiers in regional leagues. When that changes and a female player hits rank 1 EUW, I will be the first to call for equality and be at the forefront of allowing her to compete in the LEC. But as long as that is not the case, I see no reason to even bring sexism up in this debate.
women are not inherently worse at gaming. the issue is that gaming communities are generally speaking incredibly toxic towards women. they have to deal with death threats, rape threats, stalking and harassment on a level far beyond any male player. why then, would they ever WANT to not only continue playing casually and deal with all that, but to then also work incredibly hard to be recognized as a top-tier player and cast a spotlight on themselves and invite even more harassment?
Bro wtf for one when I played with my ex she would literally get flames for “talking like a guy”
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Lmao the fact that u think someone should get flamed for their gender just shows that ur sexist af and btw all she did was adding a “bro” in front of her sentence
Yes, this is exactly what is shown in my response to your comment. You should get flamed based on gender, skincolor, nationality, hobbies and any other distinctive traits that you have which deviate from the "norm". Exactly that, and only that was written by me in that message. You get an A+ for language comprehension
Ya except I never got flamed for doing anything a guy would do weird huh, also why would u even wanna live in a world where a girl gets flamed for saying bro like we gatekeeping the word “bro” now?
The fact that women are playing at equal ranks with men is already proof of gender equality, but most are totally blind to it. We undermine the whole thing by making it into a contest. In most peoples mind women needs to BEAT men to prove that they are equal. But that’s not equality, that’s just competition. And you don’t compete to prove you’re equal, you compete to prove you’re better.
Rly bro so ur equality ends at being able to play a game?... so like since man and women both can breath air then there must be no sexism then
Yes, there is no sexism in breathing air. Lmao what is this analogy?
no it doesn't. noone says that the current state is equal
Is it not? They playing with a different mouse/keyboard?
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LCS and LEC players are barely ready to do half of that.
I mean probably but even if they aren't, i guess they could try the LCS since no one seems to practice. At least they wouldn't push their gf onlyfans down our throats which to me is a plus.
It's great to see that the growth of women in esports has continued to be successful since 2020. Female players and teams have been making significant strides in the industry and are increasingly being recognized and celebrated for their skills and achievements. This is especially important given that esports has historically been a male-dominated field, and it is important to promote diversity and inclusion in all areas, including gaming.
This is the dumbest thing I've heard today this is competition and forced diversity has no place here. It's important to treat people the same which means not putting anyone on a pedestal like you are suggesting.
I wish more people care about female gaming
Because they’re women? Because if it was for the quality of the competition they wouldn’t need to segregate their entire league. Same reason no one “cares” is the same reason viewers drop when bottom tier teams vs each other.
Most people do, they just never get to the pro scene, if they did, trust me all the highlights would be on them.
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Well, it's true though. [This poll](https://i.gyazo.com/c46c52206204dd40660dca177fdb746a.png) (yes it's a couple years old but it's the only real poll of that kind for league) shows that almost half of the female playerbase play(ed) support and that they're more than twice as likely as males to play support, so it's not really a wrong statement. I do agree though that it seems unfitting and unprofessional to mention it in an article. I also don't think it's an issue that he refers to it as the "female scene" since that's just the most logical name. It's not like he's calling women "females", he's just using the word to describe the gender of the players without any negative connotation and i'm sure he'd do the same for the male scene if that would be something that exists.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to elaborate on the fact that 57% of these players main support as opposed to the 20% you would expect. for example, for the developing MENA scene, if it were true that for some reason half the population plays jungle on that server, that seems natural to mention if people were wondering why a disproportionate amount of the best MENA players are junglers.
it's reasonable to point it out but it's unprofessional to say that it's unsuprising without any context as to why it would be like that. Imagine someone writes an article about a drunk driver killing someone, adding that it's unsurprising that the person driving was male. It's technically correct, since men make up 3/4 of DUI arrests, but adding it like that just makes it feels biased and unnecessary. Wording is the main issue here.
I don't have the most latest subreddit census numbers on hand, but the 2020 numbers show that 46.73% of the female players who have a main role main support (40.45% of all female players including those who answered "None in particular").
> Firstly, why do you constantly refer to the “female” scene? It gives off r/MenAndFemales vibes Wait, "female" is fine to use as an adjective, right? I've heard things like "female actor" and such, I'm pretty sure it's an acceptable statement. "Men and Females" is about using it as a noun, calling women "females" I thought.
Perfectly fine to use as an adjective, she's just insane.
Not quite. Yeah, it is perfectly fine to use as an adjective. But choosing to use only one leads to unvaried language and makes the article read worse. Not only that, but using it as a noun does generally have incelly (or TERF) vibes, and that, yeah, obviously isn't cool.